1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: This is a pre paid call from an inmate at 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: a Florida Department of Corrections institution. To accept this call, 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: press zero to refuse this call, Hang up or press. 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 2: Thank you for using Global Telling. 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 3: Hi, Leo, how are you. 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 4: I'm doing well, Gilbert, how are you. 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: I'm going to add Kelsey to the call, so just 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: hang on a second. Hey, Hey, I'm merging the calls. Okay, 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: I think we're set. It's been about four months since 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: the release of Bone Valley's final episode. 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: But I shouldn't say final because this story is far 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 3: from over. 13 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: The book I'm supposed to be writing, well, I just 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: keep putting it off instead. I'm still working on this case. 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: I'm constantly in touch with Leo's defense team, which now 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: officially includes the former judge Scott Cupp. I'm speaking with 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: journalists and podcast hosts, as well as lawyers and listeners 18 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: who ask me how they can help support Leo. I've 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: even been corresponding with Jeremy Scott, who is still in 20 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: solitary confinement and still eager to share more of his 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: story with me. 22 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 3: But more on that another time. 23 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: Because this episode is about Leo. Leo calls me a 24 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: few times a week. For months now, he's been sharing 25 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: stories about how his life has changed since the release 26 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 2: of Bone Valley. He still hasn't been able to listen 27 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: to the show in full, but he's heard bits and 28 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: pieces here and there. Chrissy and other members of his 29 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 2: family have played parts of episodes for him over the phone, 30 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: and he's seen partial transcripts of episodes. But for the 31 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: most part, Leo's understanding of Bone Valley has been through 32 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: the interactions he's had with corrections officers and prison contractors, 33 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: the family members of other inmates who approach him in 34 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: the visitation park, and the many, many letters he's received 35 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: from listeners. And he wants to share some of these 36 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: stories and what it's meant to him with you. 37 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: You know, when this when this story was first being 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: put together, and when the podcast first aired, and everything 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: I think you even had had told me you were 40 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: trying to prepare me for the the response that I 41 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,839 Speaker 1: would get. And it was really strange because the first 42 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,839 Speaker 1: couple of months after the podcast was was was put out, 43 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't get a single email from anybody, 44 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: and so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm too old, 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: Maybe you know it's not that interesting to talk to me, 46 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: and and and just all of a sudden, I don't 47 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: I don't think it was like an episode. The final 48 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: episode came out was it was nine, and I think 49 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: the ninth one really set people off. And then all 50 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was getting emails every single day, 51 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: thirty forty emails a day from all not just in 52 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: the United States, but from Canada, Australia, from Argentina, from Ireland, 53 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: got a lot from Ireland, got a lot from the UK. 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: And these people were just responding to this stuff. And 55 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: I was not. 56 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 4: Prepared for that at all. 57 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, I'm the kind of guy 58 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: that you you I'm pretty sentimental, you know. I don't 59 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: know if I should say that publicly, because you've got 60 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: to be a tough guy in here, right, But I'm 61 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: not really that tough and have a big heart, big 62 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: soft heart. And when people write to me and they 63 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: say I love you, I respond, I love you too. 64 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 4: What's your name? You know? 65 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: And it's just really really really crazy, and just it's 66 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: it's very very exciting for me. I can't even explain 67 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: how encouraging it is to have people believe in me 68 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: after all these years and to know the truth finally, 69 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: and to respond with the kind of love that has 70 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: been really lacking in my life and in the life 71 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: of my wife, my daughter for so many years. You know, 72 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: we've been doing this thing until you came along, pretty 73 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: much on our own. And I have this kind of 74 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: love and support from so many different parts of the world. 75 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: This was absolutely overwhelming, and I can't say enough so 76 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: how grateful I am for that. It's hard to respond 77 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: to everybody, but if you send a note or something 78 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: with it, I will respond to that, no matter how smaller, 79 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: whatever it is. I try to respond to all of 80 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: them to say thank you at least. 81 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 2: Leo's ability to respond to all of these messages is 82 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,679 Speaker 2: complicated by the new communication system recently put in place 83 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: by the Department of Corrections. Inmates don't receive physical copies 84 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: of their mail anymore. Instead, letters pass through a processing 85 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: center in Tampa, where they're opened, digitally, scanned, and delivered 86 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,679 Speaker 2: through tablets that the prison provides. That means Leo doesn't 87 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: have the chance to hold the physical, handwritten letters from 88 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: his loved ones and new supporters, and Leo's digital inbox 89 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: only holds two hundred letters at a time anything beyond 90 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: the two hundred most recent items is deleted, and Leo 91 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 2: doesn't want to miss. 92 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: Any Saying thank you seems to be such an understatement. 93 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you just cannot imagine how life changing this 94 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: whole thing has been for me personally. But I'd also 95 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: like to say this, because I've actually thought about this, 96 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: if I could connect with them in any kind of 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: real way, I want them to know how much I 98 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: connect with them as they connect to me. At the 99 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: point where we're all ordinary people, and I would imagine that, 100 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, all of us have something that we deal 101 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: with on a daily basis. You know, mine has been 102 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: this prison experience, and there are many things. I got 103 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: a friend right now, it's in the NICEU. He's dealing with, 104 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, a health issue and his family, and we're 105 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: all dealing with things. And I really want them to 106 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: see me as an ordinary person, you know, just like 107 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: thes And the reason why that's so important is because 108 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: if they can see me as an ordinary person, then 109 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: they may be able to see the God that I 110 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: believe in as being extraordinary. Because at the center of 111 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: this story for me is God I serve. And I 112 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: give them all the credit for making this whole thing 113 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: come about bringing all these people together. And that's a 114 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: very important message for me, and it will be the 115 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: center of my message leaving out of here if in 116 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: one night I get the opportunity to go home. I 117 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: really do appreciate this love and support that I've received 118 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: from them and continue to receive from them, and it 119 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: has absolutely changed my life and has given me such 120 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: great strength to continue with this fight. 121 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: Leo has also failed to shift in his interactions, not 122 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: just with people on the outside, but also within the 123 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 2: prison walls. 124 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: Listen, officers, their job is not to be our friends, 125 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: know and for the most part, most of these very 126 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: professional they they they you know, there's a demarcated line 127 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: between you know, inmates and staff, and that's the nature 128 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: of prison, and you know, and some of them are 129 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: are overally not friendly, so they make sure that line 130 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: is very demarcated. 131 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: And you know, I don't have any issues with that. 132 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 4: I'm not here to make friends either. 133 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: But there was one in particular, and he has always 134 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: been straight, narrow, and you know, very hard, and he 135 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: had he had heard the podcast and he had approached 136 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: me and said he was listening to it, and his 137 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: whole demeanor, his whole attitude of how he looked at me, 138 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: how he treated me, was totally different than what it 139 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: was prior to that. I mean, I have yet to 140 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: hear anybody that's been opposed to me, or you know, 141 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: even neutral, if they if they listened to the part 142 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,239 Speaker 1: cast that come away, you know, very convinced and angry 143 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: that the system is what it is. There's an officer 144 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: walked by me yesterday and I guess he's new to 145 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: the podcast. He said, Hey, I've been listening to that 146 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: podcast about you. And I said really, because you know, 147 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't really know him really well. But I said 148 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: what you think and he said, I think you didn't 149 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: do it. He just kept going yeah, and uh. 150 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 4: You know, you get a lot of things like. 151 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: That, you know, the sentiment is pretty strong. I think 152 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: one of the most moving ones for me was it's 153 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: always the moms to get me right. But there was 154 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: this one in particular. 155 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 4: She didn't know me. 156 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: She asked her son if she could meet me or 157 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: say something to me. 158 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 4: You know, she's never spoken to you before, so she 159 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 4: just came up. 160 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: I was holding my youngest grandson, who is you know, 161 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: a serious chick magnet. You know, he's a real cute 162 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: little boy, and I figured she was coming up to 163 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: see him because they all do, and and she was 164 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: coming up with a smile on her face. And when 165 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: she got up to me, she didn't say anything immediately. Know, 166 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of an awkward moment. She would just pause 167 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: like she couldn't say and I could see she was 168 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: trying to. 169 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 4: Gather her thoughts. 170 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: She put her on hand on my shoulder and then 171 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: she said, I'm gonna cry. And then I realized she 172 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: was there to see me. And I gave my grandson 173 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: to him to his mother, and I said, come here, 174 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: and I gave her a big hug and she just 175 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: tugged me and she said, I love you, And it 176 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: just choked me up as well. And she said I 177 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: listened to the podcast, and I said, well, thank you 178 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: for taking the time doing that. She said, I hope, 179 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: I so hope this ends well for you now. 180 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 4: Of course I thanked her, and that. 181 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: Was just one but the response from anybody who's listened 182 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: to it been incredible. 183 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: But there's another part of this experience that's new to LEO. 184 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: News about Bone Valley has spread throughout the prison population, 185 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: and for the first time, everyone who he's incarcerated with 186 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: seems to know what he's in for. 187 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: It's a little bit of challenge me too, by the way, 188 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: because if you can imagine, we don't live our lives 189 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: and here telling each other why we're here, I mean, 190 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: it wouldn't work out really well for some of these 191 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: guys who you know, made some incredible bad decisions in 192 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: their in their lives and affective lives of others. So 193 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: we don't walk around telling each other about our cases, 194 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: and so it's a little bit unnerving. But when they 195 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: hear the whole sort of one, they hear everything. What 196 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: happens is they can put in a lot of hopes 197 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: in my success because their hope is is that you know, 198 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: when I leave here, I will speak on their behalf 199 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: for people who are in similar situations. And there are 200 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: some there is a lot of good people in here. 201 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: A lot of these guys are just men who've made 202 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: bad mistakes and would never do it again. Now they're 203 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: paying for it with their lives. You know, I live 204 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: here with broken men. They're already broken. 205 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 4: We're all broken. 206 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: And what we learn is that that's not that's it's 207 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: not a condition that's exclusive to prisoners. These people come 208 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: from the free world. We came in here broken. I'm 209 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: not an advocate for criminality, but i am an advocate 210 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: for redemption, for forgiveness, for restoration, and that being for 211 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: the victims as well. And so you know, it's a 212 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: very naughty situation. But you know, I'm carrying a great 213 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: burden for these guys, so it's not just about me 214 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: with them too. 215 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for 216 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 5: Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War 217 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 5: on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you, 218 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 5: our listeners, to take part in the survey. Your feedback 219 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 5: is going to help inform how we make podcasts in 220 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 5: the future. Your complete and candid answers will help us 221 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 5: continue to bring you more insightful and inspiring stories about 222 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 5: important topics that impact us all. So please go to 223 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 5: lavafrogod dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you 224 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 5: for your support. 225 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is 226 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers 227 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems, 228 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: including the failed war on drugs that has criminalized addiction, 229 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 2: fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities. 230 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 3: At eleven years old. 231 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: Scott Strode drank his first beer. At fifteen, Scott went 232 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts, where 233 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction, Scott 234 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 2: was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain he 235 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties, 236 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend. 237 00:12:59,200 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: That's where he. 238 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: Discos, however, the healing power of sport and community that 239 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 2: helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand and six, 240 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober active community that 241 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: uses the transformative power of sport to help people treat 242 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 2: and heal from addiction and imagine new possibilities for their 243 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to a system 244 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: that has long relied on locking people up to solve 245 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: the addiction crisis. Scott Strode is one of many entrepreneurs 246 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education, healthcare, poverty. 247 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 3: And criminal justice. 248 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: To learn more, about addiction and the War on Drugs. 249 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: Listen to the War. 250 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: On Drugs podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 251 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: your podcasts. As the days, weeks, and months pass, there 252 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: are certain dates that reopen unhealed wounds. February twenty fourth 253 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: was the anniversary of Michelle's death, thirty six years since 254 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: she was killed. This anniversary is always a difficult day 255 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: for Leo. I'm just wondering what gets you through these 256 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: dark times? 257 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 3: You know, is it faith? Is it music? What is 258 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 3: it that holds you together? 259 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: You know, that's a really really good question, and it's 260 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: a very important answer. The very simple answer is that 261 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: my faith in the God that has got me this 262 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: far is what gets me through each and. 263 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 4: Every one of those days. 264 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: And it's not just the February twenty fourth day. It's 265 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: her birthday on the summer eight and our wedding day. 266 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: But February's is the worst because of what it represents. 267 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: And this time it was somehow more difficult. I was 268 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: in a very saddened state. 269 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 4: It was really tough. 270 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: On the day of the anniversary, Leo has sent a 271 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: picture of Michelle's grave. The headstone was a ridge inscribed 272 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: with her married name Michelle Schofield, but after Leo was 273 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: convicted of her murder, the stone was replaced with one 274 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: bearing her maiden name, Michelle Salm. 275 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: My sister had found a picture somewhere and sent it 276 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: to me, and I noticed that my name was taken 277 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: off of the headstrong by her dad. I totally understand 278 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: his sentiment and his feeling, but I didn't deserve that 279 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: dishonor I don't want to, you know, art him in 280 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: any kind of way. It's just it adds to the 281 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: to the feeling of sadness that I had on that day. 282 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: These anniversaries are just part of the stress that Leo 283 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: is dealing with. On top of the pressures of his 284 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: life in prison. He was having trouble sleeping, and all 285 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: of the stress seemed to catch up with him. 286 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: A few days before we spoke. 287 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: I was at work, was working with my boss and 288 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: pushing a tool card and I really didn't have any wanning. 289 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: Apparently my blood pressure was high and somehow my heart 290 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: got out a rhythm and. 291 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 4: When I felt it. 292 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: Come on, you know, it caused me to hitch my breathing, 293 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: and so I asked my boss to give me a minute. 294 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 4: I put my head down. 295 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: I was trying to catch my breath and I couldn't 296 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: get that rhythm right, and I ended up falling on 297 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: the ground, apparently. And the only thing that I remember 298 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: about being on the ground, because I was laying there 299 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: and looking up, I had like tunnel vision, and I 300 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: had this sound like it was a jet plane in 301 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: my ears. I was laying there and I could see 302 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: the sky and I couldn't really see anything around me 303 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: except the sky in front of me, and it was 304 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: just a position I was in. It was the clear 305 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: sky and clouds, and it was very, very sublime for 306 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: me because I was seeing a fast expanse without looking 307 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: through a fence or a raisor fire or bars or 308 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: steel doors or you know, you take that from Brandon, 309 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: because you know, we're always looking horizontally here, right, and 310 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: you look up a lot, and so having that. 311 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 4: View was very surreal for me. 312 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: It was it was very comforting. 313 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: Leo told me that as he was lying there looking 314 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: up at the blue sky and white clouds, there was 315 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: a brief moment when he didn't know where he was. 316 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: He didn't know if he was dead or alive, imprisoned 317 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 2: or free, And. 318 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: Wow, that was pretty great for me, and that's the 319 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: only thing I remember about being on the Brown. 320 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: Have you been able to listen to that final episode? 321 00:17:58,600 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 4: Now? 322 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: Unfortunately I don't get too. I mean, I've heard some 323 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: of it over the phone with Christy Sharonck with me, 324 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: and I've heard thoughts of it, and you know, I 325 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: know some of the things that it was about. 326 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: We told Leo some of what we learned from our 327 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 2: interview with Jeremy Scott, just bits and pieces. It's hard 328 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: for Leo to hear these details, but through family, Leo 329 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: was able to hear some more. And there was one 330 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: part that really stuck with him, Jeremy's insistence that he 331 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: told the prosecutor John Aguero all the way back in 332 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 2: two thousand and five that he was responsible for Michelle's murder. 333 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: This was a full decade before Jeremy confessed over the 334 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: phone to Leo's defense attorney. 335 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: That is one segment of it that I actually did 336 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: get to hear that they had played for me over 337 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: the phone. And I'm going to tell you my initial 338 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: reaction at that moment, because I didn't know that until then. 339 00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 4: I was very angry. 340 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: I was very. 341 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 4: Angry because it became obvious to me that. 342 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: My life, my wife's life, my wife today, Chrissy Ashley, 343 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: my family, Michelle, her family, none of that. 344 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 4: Mattered to that man. 345 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: And had he done the right thing at that point, 346 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: I'd have been willing to stand there and shake his 347 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: hand and say, you know, we move on from this. 348 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: Just just do the right thing, because anybody can make 349 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: a mistake. And I've never been vindictive about that. I've 350 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: never been bitter about it. I'm still not bitter about it. 351 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: But at that moment, I was extremely angry because he 352 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: didn't do the right thing. He covered it up, and 353 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: I went years longer trying to fight this case and 354 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: lost at these appeals, and so it was very It 355 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: was very devastating for me. And ironically enough, I was 356 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: more angry with John Girl than I was with Jeremy. 357 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: I think Jeremy was was more just at that point 358 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: than he was than Guirrel was. I've since, by the 359 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: way I've had I've had to let that go to 360 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: John Guerrero is dead. If I can just say this 361 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: really quick about mister gurrel Uh. He was always like 362 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: a nemesis for me for a little while. I think 363 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: I probably was for him as well. 364 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: Leo told me about one time decades ago at a 365 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 2: post conviction hearing when he spotted John Aguero in the courtroom. 366 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: And mister Gurrel stood up and shook my lawyer's hand 367 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: and read it him. He looked at me and he 368 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: asked me how I was doing, and he was as 369 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: sincereous you could be as asking that. I mean, he 370 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: was cordial to me, and I think I think for 371 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: me the years after that, he became somebody I really 372 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: wanted to prove this case too. You know, it wasn't 373 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: somebody I hated. I've never hated John Guirrew. 374 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 4: I believe that. 375 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: We need UH prosecutors. Unfortunately, we need the judiciary, we 376 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: need the DC. 377 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 4: We need these. 378 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: Systems in place to protect people and to hold the 379 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: other this accountable who commit violence crime. But for me, 380 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: mister Guirrel represented somebody I wanted to prove this case 381 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: or I really wanted to prove this case, and I felt 382 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: like someday it would happen and we would both be 383 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: all right with it. And then when I heard he 384 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: died in Morocco, that was that was kind of sad 385 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: for me because part of the goal is not going 386 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: to be able to be fulfilled. But you know, now 387 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: I have Victoria Avalon and Brian Haas, and you know 388 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: I want to prove to them too, but they don't 389 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: have the history with me that I had with mister Guirrel. 390 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: And so for me, it's never been about bitterness and 391 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: never been about hatred and proving somebody wrong. It was 392 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: just about proving me innocent, if that makes any sense. 393 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 2: Leo's legal team is still debating strategies to legally prove 394 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 2: Leo's innocence, but in the meantime, Leo has another opportunity 395 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: for parole. We'll go into that process in more depth 396 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: in another follow up episode once we have more details, 397 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: but for now, what we do know is that on 398 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 2: March fifteenth, Leo will receive a visit from an investigator 399 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: with the Florida Commission on a fender review. This person 400 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: will show up at Hardy CI and spend some time 401 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: talking to Leo about his record and his hopes for parole. 402 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: The Commission will then promptly set a date for Leo's hearing. 403 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 2: Leo won't be able to attend that hearing, but his 404 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: attorneys will make their case for his parole, and once 405 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: again the panel of three commissioners will publicly make their. 406 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 3: Decision, and. 407 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: You know, hopefully that we'll have people there to support 408 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: and we'll make our case. 409 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 4: You get very very. 410 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: Little time to make your case, and historically the pro 411 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: Commission has not been very favorable to me. 412 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 2: They could decide to grant him parole so that he 413 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: can eventually be home with his family, but then again, 414 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: he's never apologized for the crime he was convicted of, 415 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: which the state is pointed to as the reason that 416 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 2: Leo shouldn't be paroled. 417 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: I don't know how you can expect someone to apologize 418 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: for something that they did not do. And that's just 419 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: a fact that I have to deal with because pro 420 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: Commission does you know, I don't think they require it. 421 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: I think they expect it, and you know, and I 422 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: guess at some level they should. I try to understand 423 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: their perspective of it. The thing is, though, is that 424 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,479 Speaker 1: who qualifies that? I mean, why is it that somebody 425 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 1: can go up before them and say I'm really sorry 426 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: and somehow that makes them more amicable to making a 427 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: decision to parole them than someone who has stood on 428 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: his innocence for the entire time from the trial, all 429 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: the way through thirty five years, I gained nothing by 430 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: standing on a claim of innocence unless I actually possess it. 431 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: Because most of the inmates that I have that talk 432 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: to me today, because they come from the point of 433 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: view of being guilty, and they jump at a chance 434 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 1: to get out of prison. They think it's because of 435 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: my pride that I won't just say I'm sorry for 436 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: the pro you know, just say it. What do you care? 437 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: What do they you know? What does it matter? Just 438 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: say you're sorry and proll out. Well, you know, I 439 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: understand their perspective, I really do. But I'm not guilty. 440 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: And it's not just about me. It's about my wife, 441 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: and she deserves better justice than this. I know that 442 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: that's not a sentiment that's felt across the board and 443 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: the people who have opposed me case, but it is 444 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: an actual fact. She deserves better than this. She deserves justice. 445 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: She deserves to have the truth come out. She doesn't 446 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: deserve to have her husband falsely accused, convicted and thrown 447 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: away and the real killer go free. She doesn't deserve that. 448 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 4: She was worthy of real justice. 449 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: And I have to stand on that. And you know 450 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: this is not this is not you know, saying I'm sorry. 451 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 4: For stealing a candy bar. I didn't steal. 452 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,239 Speaker 1: This is this is standing up for what's right. And 453 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: I simply cannot live with myself labeled as a murderer. 454 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: I just cannot do it. 455 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 4: I'm not going to do it. 456 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: So, you know, and you would think that after all 457 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: this time, you know, I've had the opportunity to take 458 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: deals to go home. I could have taken a deal 459 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: before a trial even started that would have sent me 460 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: home thirty two years ago, Gilbert thirty two years ago. 461 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: Leo's talking about how, just before he went to trial 462 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine, the state offered him the opportunity 463 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: to plead guilty to a lesser charge of second degree murder. 464 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 2: If Leo had taken the deal, there would have been 465 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 2: no trial and no threat of the death penalty. 466 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 4: Think about that. So, despite what John A. 467 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: Guirrell tells the jury about you know, how vicious I 468 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: am and all of other stuff, they were willing to 469 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: let me go thirty two years ago without telling the 470 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: jury a single word. 471 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 4: And that's a fact of the case. It's public record. 472 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: Can you just talk about that briefly, Leo, and what 473 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: that would have meant to you in terms of sentencing. 474 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 4: Okay, well what. 475 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: That would have meant at that time I was under 476 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: a guideline sentence, and it would have been a twelve 477 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: to seventeen year guideline sentence, And that sounds like a 478 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: lot of time, but it's really not because they they 479 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to give me more than twelve years, 480 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: because they wouldn't have had any reason to aggravate. I 481 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: have no prior felonies, and on twelve years, I got 482 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: a third off automatically, so that's four off of that. 483 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 4: That leaves eight. 484 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: I got day to day the jail time, that's two 485 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two days. It's almost another year, so 486 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: now you're down into seven and then I'm getting twenty 487 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: days a month gain time to this day. That doesn't 488 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: apply to a life sentence, so you're cutting it more 489 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: than in half. So I would not have done more 490 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: than three and a half years on the twelve but 491 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: taking a deal of a second degree, and instead of 492 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: taking that, I faced the death penalty because that's what 493 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: I was facing. Now here's something else in Nates will 494 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: tell you there's nobody and here, nobody in here that 495 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: knows that they were caught guilty in trial facing the 496 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: death penalty, that would not take three and a half years, 497 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: and try to beat the death penalty on a case 498 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: like this. No one would have done that, no one, 499 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: no one in their right mind. And you could call 500 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: me a lot of things back then. You can call 501 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: me a lot of things now, but you cannot call 502 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: me stupid, not stupid. I had told my attorney, and 503 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: I don't care if they offer me five minutes probation 504 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: and they say that I can do it on the 505 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: way to the airport to go back from Massachusetts, I 506 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: am not taking to any deals, and I was scared 507 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: to death. I didn't say. 508 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 4: That with courage of being brave. I said it out. 509 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: Of simple fact that I cannot. 510 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 4: There's no choice in this for me. 511 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: Still, I could understand if Leo felt pressure to apologize, 512 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: to feign remorse so that he'd be granted parole. But 513 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: for Leo this has never been an option. To apologize 514 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: for killing his wife would mean he'd be lying, and 515 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 2: that would eliminate the possibility of real justice for Michelle, 516 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: and that he would never do, not in nineteen eighty 517 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: seven and not today, not even for the chance to 518 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: be released tomorrow. 519 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 4: You know. 520 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: It's this dangling parrot that's before me always, and I 521 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: want it. 522 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: I want it really bad. 523 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: I want to go home. I want to take care 524 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: of my wife and kid. I want to I want 525 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: to take care of my life. I want to go 526 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: out there and be able to live a little bit, 527 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: you know, and make my mistakes and do my good 528 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: deeds and all that stuff. 529 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 4: And I want that really bad. 530 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: But I don't want it enough that I'm going to 531 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: sacrifice who I am as a person, in the integrity 532 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: that I have. And it's not because I'm a saint, 533 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: it's not because I'm some great guy. It's simply because 534 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: I did not do it. That's it. There's no other 535 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: reason behind refusing to do those things. I don't want 536 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: to make the Commission angry with me. I don't want 537 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: to fight against Bryan Haws or Jerry Hill or Victoria Avon. 538 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to drag them through any you know, 539 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: mud puddles. I have nothing to do with that. I 540 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: don't want anything to do with that. I just cannot 541 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: take the deal. I did not commit the crime. 542 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: I've seen you preach in your sermons and I've seen 543 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: you talk about hope, and I'm just wondering, do you 544 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: have hope right now for this next parole hearing? 545 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. 546 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 4: I have great hope. 547 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: The narrative of my life has been changed, and Michelle's 548 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: truth is now very widely known across the world, and 549 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: knowing that they finally know the truth is everything to 550 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: me because that has to be ninety percent of what 551 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: my mission has always been for thirty five years. Ninety 552 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: percent of my fight has been about getting justice for her. 553 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: Really doesn't matter who in the state acknowledges that or not. 554 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: People are acknowledging it, and that's justice for Michelle. 555 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 4: Now. 556 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: Now I can rest with that now. The other ten 557 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: percent was hoping that I could somehow get myself back 558 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: home to take care of the family that I'm in 559 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: love with now, and you know, I'm still hopeful for 560 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: that to happen. But the main part of this goal 561 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: that I have is complete. People know in the past 562 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: I haven't had that. So yeah, I do have a. 563 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 4: Lot of hope. 564 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: And I don't know what the Commission knows. 565 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 4: I really don't. I don't know them. 566 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: I know, like I understand all that Victoria Avalon knows 567 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: she's been part of this case, and so she knows 568 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: my claim and she knows who I am. And you know, 569 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what she thinks about it, And even 570 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: more cloudy is what the Commission thinks about But they're 571 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: all human beings, and so this is a chance for 572 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: all of them, all of them to come out. We 573 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: can all come out of this in a really good place. 574 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: We can all come out of this ahead, and it 575 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: will never come back in their face. Victoria Avalon would 576 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: never be embarrassed for coming away saying this wasn't right. 577 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: It'll never come back to her because I. 578 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 4: Didn't do it. 579 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: I keep saying that. It's just a fact. I'm not 580 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: after money, I'm not after fame. I don't need an 581 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: apology for me. I'm not asking for any of that. 582 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: All I'm asking for is justice with Michelle and my freedom. 583 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I have a lot of hope because 584 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: now the story has been told, and it's been told 585 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: in a very very big way, and it's been told 586 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: very comprehensively. So I have a lot of hope because 587 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: I think I think these people who will supporting me 588 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: now are not going to take no for an answer. 589 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: On this, and if the answer becomes no, I think 590 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to want to know why. 591 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: If Leo's denied parole in this his fourth attempt, so 592 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: many of you will want to know why. There's a 593 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: level of scrutiny now that the state cannot escape. I 594 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 2: don't know if there's really a way to make things 595 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: right at this point. In a few months, in June, 596 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: it'll be thirty five years since Leo's known a day 597 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 2: of freedom. Many of those years were spent in hopeless isolation, 598 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 2: with Leo pleading for someone, anyone to listen and believe 599 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: that he's an innocent man. Now there are people all 600 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: around the world who have heard his story and believe 601 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 2: in his innocence, people who are waiting and watching to 602 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: see what happens next, and that is what gives him hope. 603 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: And please make sure to thank all those supporters because 604 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: that means a lot. I really I'm appreciative of the 605 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: opportunity to tell them thank you personally, because that's everything 606 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: to me. They totally have changed my life. I cannot 607 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: say enough. And hopefully we come to a good end 608 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: in the story, and what a celebration that will be, 609 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's time. 610 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 4: I mean, it just is. It's just time.