1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld, the summer Secretary of Energy, 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: Jennifer Granholm, set out on a four day electric vehicle 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: trip from Charlotte, North Carolina to Memphis, Tennessee, in an 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: effort to draw attention to the billions of dollars the 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: Biden administration is putting into green energy and clean cars. 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: But when she and her entourage, including a luxury Cadillac Lyric, 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: an electric Ford F one fifty, and a Chevy Bolt, 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: pulled into Grovetown, a suburb of Augusta, Georgia, for a 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: quick charge of their vehicles at a station with four chargers, 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: they quickly realized one of the charges was broken and 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: the rest were occupied, so an Energy department staffer decided 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: to park a gas powered vehicle in one of the 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: spots to hold it for the Secretary, prompting a family 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: in another EV car waiting to get charged to call 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: the police. I think this whole episode is a great 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: example of how the Biden administration thinks they're doing amazing 17 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: things by pouring money in at the very top and 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: then pushing the rest of America into buying EV cars 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: when no chargers are publicly available. A point by the way, 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: which was made by the President of Ford, who tried 21 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: a similar trip with electric f one fifty. It's just 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: one of many examples of how the Biden administration is 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: trying to dictate to us, the American people, what we 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: should buy, from cars to appliances, to air conditioners to fans. 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: They're putting regulations on everything. Here to discuss this topic, 26 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Ben Lieberman. He 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: is a senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, recently 28 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: served for seven years as a Senior council for the 29 00:01:49,720 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: US House Committee on Energy and Commerce. Ben, welcome, and 30 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me on Newts World. 31 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. 32 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: I have to say, if we could just start with Granholm, 33 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: because it was such a perfectly stupid trip. This administration 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: combines radicalism with total incompetence in ways that if you 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: were writing fiction, you couldn't imagine Granholm. Often put up 36 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: a photo of New York City in nineteen hundred full 37 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: of horses and carriages with a single car, and then 38 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: another slide thirteen years later, same street, all of those cars, 39 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: and she says, can you spot the horse? She wanted 40 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: to say things are happening fast. You're in the center 41 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: of it. Imagine how big clean energy will be in 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: thirteen years, she told one audience in South Klina. How 43 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: much stronger are economy is going to grow, how many 44 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: good paying jobs are going to create, and where we 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: are going to lead the world. But if you actually 46 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: look on the internet for the trip, it's remarkable how 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: much of the national media reported this story of the 48 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: police being called that for all the media's done everything 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: they can to protect and cover up for the Biden administration. 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: They also point out they're only about three electric vehicle 51 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: charging ports for every ten thousand people in the US. 52 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: Imagine lining up for an electric charging port. So I'm curious, Ben, 53 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: what's your whole reaction to the administration's push for electric 54 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: cars and their desire to dictate to the American people 55 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: what they can buy. 56 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 3: Well, imagine how you felt if you took a trip 57 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 3: like that and you had to pay fifty thousand dollars 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 3: for that vehicle rather than get to borrow a government vehicle. 59 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 3: So you can imagine how people are feeling. And I 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: think that's why electric vehicle sales may be showing signs 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 3: of plateauing. That those people who can afford to experiment 62 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 3: on an electric second or third or fourth call have 63 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: bought them. Maybe a few more will buy them. But 64 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: for the one third of Americans, for whom they are 65 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: single vehicle households, can you really rely on that EV 66 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: as that one go to vehicle. What if you have 67 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 3: to go somewhere when the vehicle's charging, What if you 68 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: want to go on a long trip like Secretary Grand 69 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 3: Home did. It just isn't working out. 70 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: And again, what really we need. 71 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: To focus on is consumer choice. The ultimate decision has 72 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: to lie with the consumer. Central planning does not work. 73 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 3: No two homes are alike, no two homeowners are alike, 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 3: and we all know our own individualized circumstances and preferences 75 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 3: better than any central planner. We have to think that 76 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 3: when we look at these ev measures as well as 77 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 3: appliance regulations. 78 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: Obviously I agree with you, and I would note that 79 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: only six percent of the vehicles sold today are electric vehicles. 80 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: That's with all the subsidies, all the effort. But the 81 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: Biden team wants to require sixty percent of the vehicles 82 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: sold in the US to be battery powered electric by 83 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: twenty thirty. That is literally seven years from now, they 84 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: want us to jump from six percent to sixty percent 85 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: to sixty seven percent two out of every three vehicles 86 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: by twenty thirty two. 87 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: Do you think that's all likely to happen. 88 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: Well, there'll be a backlash at some point. It hasn't 89 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 3: happened yet, but there certainly will be. It's important to 90 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 3: note that not only are there the incentives the carrots 91 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 3: for evs, but there's the sticks in the form of 92 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: costly regulations that are going to make gasoline powered vehicles 93 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 3: more expensive and less desirable. 94 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: So in a sense, they're trying to coerce us by 95 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: economically making it more expensive to buy what we want 96 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: and cheaper to buy what we don't want. 97 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: That's the only way to get to these EV goals. 98 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: It's not where consumers want to be if given their 99 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: own choices. 100 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: Do you think that's why they're also sort of indifferent 101 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: to the price of gasoline, that, in a way, their 102 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: model requires expensive gasoline to help drive us away from 103 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: traditional vehicles. 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: Well, that's the dirty secret. 105 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 3: And occasionally folks on the left let the cat out 106 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 3: of the bag and say four dollars or even five 107 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: dollars gallon gasoline is what we want. For example, there 108 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: are two states in the US right now where gasoline 109 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 3: is five dollars a gallon or higher, California and Washington State. 110 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: Those are also the two states that have cap and 111 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: trade programs applicable to gasoline. But nobody talks about those 112 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: cap and trade programs as though they're the cost. So 113 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 3: it's obviously the goal. Obviously what's behind some of the 114 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 3: increases in gasoline prices, And again, the goal is to 115 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 3: make driving a gasoline powered car so painful that evs 116 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: are a good option by comparison. 117 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: There are a lot of hidden games being played here. 118 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that the shift on heavy 119 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: duty vehicles will cost about six billion dollars to the manufacturers, 120 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: and that the cost for a buyer for a new 121 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: heavy duty zero emission vehicle somewhere between nine hundred and 122 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: eleven thousand more in upfront costs than for a conventional vehicle. 123 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't this an extraordinary amount of money to 124 00:06:59,040 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: be throwing at. 125 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 3: What It's an extraordinary amount of money, and we hope 126 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: at some point it will stop, But no sign of 127 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 3: that just yet. 128 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: If anything, that seems to me that the left is 129 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: doubling and tripling down on their vision of the world 130 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: and on what they think of the problems. And yet 131 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: I saw some study that if we went to an 132 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: all electric system, which of course requires either coal plants 133 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: or nuclear plants or again natural gas, because you're not 134 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: going to get enough solar and enough wind for the 135 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: scale of electricity they're now talking about. And I think 136 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: it's in one state they now have a law that 137 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: the state can actually turn off your vehicle or actually 138 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: take electricity back from it, so you could plug in 139 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: your car and if the state decides that the grid 140 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: needs the electricity, they can actually be discharging you as 141 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: opposed to charging your car. They can be discharging your 142 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: car into the state's electric system. Isn't this all likely 143 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: to become a pretty big mess? 144 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: Oh? 145 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely, We're putting all of our eggs in the electricity asket. 146 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 3: At the same time we're making it harder than ever 147 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: to produce electricity. So again, there's a lot of very 148 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 3: very scary trends in heres ahead. 149 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: When you study this, you make the point that almost 150 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: all the households that buy electric vehicles actually have another car, 151 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: and only about ten percent of the households have one 152 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: car in its electric vehicle. Do you have any sense 153 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: or any information on what the effect is on those 154 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: one car households of having an electric vehicle. I mean, 155 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: are they fairly well restricted to driving it around their city? 156 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: Can they go on long trips? And how complicated is 157 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: it to plan a long trip with an electric vehicle. 158 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: That's why electric vehicles are not the popular choice of 159 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 3: those who have to rely on only one car. There's 160 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 3: limits on long trips, as Secretary grand Home has learned, 161 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 3: there's also the problem that you can't go anywhere when 162 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 3: the vehicle is charging. There's a lot of limitations to 163 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 3: electric vehicles. And I'll consider electric vehicle once the price 164 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 3: has come down and once the inconveniences are better addressed. 165 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 3: But we're nowhere near that point yet. And I would 166 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 3: almost go so far as to say that evs are 167 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 3: still a luxury good. You can rely on them when 168 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 3: you have another gasoline powered car that you can use 169 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 3: at any time. But if you doubt, you really just 170 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 3: can't make the EV that one go to vehicle. 171 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you make the point. I think ninety percent 172 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: of electric vehicle owners have a gasoline or diesel powered 173 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: vehicle as well. Even the sales numbers are a little 174 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: bit misleading, because in fact, very few people are willing 175 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: to rely solely on electric vehicle this stage. 176 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: And I think most of the people that do are 177 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: well healed urbanites that just think that evs are the 178 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 3: latest thing. So very few people who actually really need 179 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 3: a car have made an EV that car that they 180 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:48,719 Speaker 3: rely on. 181 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: Well, I should point out, by the way, that I 182 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: have an electric vehicle which I plug in every night, 183 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: and it's called a golf cart. It works just fine, 184 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: but I'm not sure I'm about to jump into another one, 185 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: although I do a little stock in Tesla, so I 186 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: have a big interest in electric vehicles, at least the 187 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: Elon Musk versions. Hi. This is newt. 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They're also looking at our whole 206 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: house and trying to force us to change. Do you 207 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about this whole psychological 208 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: attitude they have, which apparently is across the entire Biden administration, 209 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: that it's okay to force Americans to change by just 210 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: changing the regulations so we have no consumer choices. 211 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,599 Speaker 3: Well, it all started in January when a Biden administration 212 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: official at the Consumer Product Safety Commission let the cat 213 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 3: out of the bag and said that banning gas stones 214 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 3: is a real possible ability. That led to a very 215 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: very powerful consumer backlash and administration denials that they would 216 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 3: ever do such a thing, But they very much were 217 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 3: doing such a thing and have continued to do so. 218 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 3: And the only thing that's happened since those administration denials 219 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 3: is that the Department of Energy has launched regulations proposed 220 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: regulations not just against stoves, but refrigerators, closed washers, dishwashers, 221 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: water heaters, furnaces, ceiling fans, you name it. Just about 222 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 3: anything around the house that either plugs in or fires 223 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 3: up is subject to new regulations that could boost the 224 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: price of these appliances, compromise product performance, and sort of 225 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 3: steer us from one version to a more politically correct version, 226 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 3: as is the case with gas stoves versus electric stoves, 227 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 3: which for some reason electric stoves are the more popular 228 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 3: choice among environmentalists. Not that that particularly makes any sense, 229 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 3: but in any event, the government is you using regulations 230 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 3: to force us in one direction. 231 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: If you changed every gas stove in the country to electricity, 232 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: which of course means somewhere there's a plant making electricity, 233 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: what is the net gain with all of this change, 234 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: all this expense. I saw one study where the Department 235 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: of Energy looked at twenty one different current gas stoves 236 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: and concluded twenty of them wouldn't comply. I mean putting 237 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: companies out of business, you know, putting assembly workers out 238 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: of business. What's the net gain in the environment for 239 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: changing over from gas to electricity. 240 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: Little and maybe even negative. 241 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 3: And I would point out that even the Department of 242 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 3: Energy admits that natural gas is three times cheaper on 243 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: a per unit energy basis, So that's what we'd be 244 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: giving up by moving to electricity. The fantasy is that 245 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 3: we'll move everyone to electricity and then electricity will be 246 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 3: generated by wind and solar, but that's just not the reality. 247 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 3: Right now, sixty percent of electricity is generated by natural 248 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 3: gas or coal, and because of things like line losses 249 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 3: between the power plant and your home, it's much more 250 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: efficient to use natural gas directly to power your furnace 251 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 3: or your water heater or your stove. But I think, 252 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 3: as you mentioned, this has a lot more to do 253 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: with control. And one thing that a number of environmental 254 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 3: activists have been pushing in recent years is this electrification agenda, 255 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 3: forcing resonances to only rely on electricity and not have 256 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 3: that choice between electricity and natural gas. Why do they 257 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 3: hate natural gas? Well, it's the fossil fuel. So this 258 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: is all part of the climate agenda. 259 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: Why do these people want to force all of us 260 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: onto an electric grid? What's there reasoning that has to 261 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: be all electric? 262 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: The reasoning from their perspective is that this could lead 263 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: to greenhouse gas emissions reductions, but it's just not realistic. 264 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: But the goal here is climate policy. 265 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: They want to come in having told you what kind 266 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: of car you can have, They now want to come 267 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: in and tell you what kind of stove you can have. 268 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: And if you think about it, like for small businesses, 269 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: for small restaurants or what have you, this goes to 270 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: the heart of why the Biden administration is not affordable. 271 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: It's both inflation, but it's also regulation driven on affordability. 272 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: It seems to me that they don't understand that all 273 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: of these things add cost and added cost limits choices 274 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: and lowers the quality of life for the average American. 275 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: I mean, am I missing something here? 276 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 3: Well, you're trying to read too much logic into the 277 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 3: environmental movement and the Biden administration. They think that this 278 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 3: needs to be done to save the planet. I would 279 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: argue that I think the whole idea that switching stoves 280 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 3: is necessary to save as all is so ridiculous. I 281 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 3: think that was part of how powerful the consumer backlash 282 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: was that I think the American people are starting you 283 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: realize that the climate agenda is starting to be misused 284 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: just for purposes of controlling our lives and not in 285 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: any rational way of trying to reduce emissions. 286 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: So when you talk about stoves and the next thing 287 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: that they're going after now is dishwashers, what's the logic there. 288 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 3: Trying to save the planet by forcing less use of electricity. 289 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: Dishwashers have already been regulated four times. They've already been overregulated, 290 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: I should say. Because of these regulations, dishwashers take about 291 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: two hours to finish a load of dishes rather than 292 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 3: one hour, So the inconvenience is well in excess of 293 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 3: any savings. But now with these proposed rules that would 294 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: crack down even further on energy and water use from 295 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 3: dishwashers and even add further to the inconvenience. 296 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: It's also been the case that. 297 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 3: Dishwashers don't clean dishes as well as they used to, 298 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: so there's increased incidents that people having their rints dishes 299 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 3: before or which undercuts the whole purpose of trying to 300 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 3: save on resources. 301 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: In order to reduce water consumption. They have extended the 302 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: length of time I think doubled from one to two 303 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: hours it takes to wash the dishes. So I presume 304 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: that actually means an increased energy use by the dishwasher 305 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: since it's now twice as long, but it has less water. 306 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: So the side that's saving water is happy, and the 307 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: side of the save energy has a notice yet that 308 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: this is exactly the opposite of what they're trying to do. 309 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 3: Well, they do use less energy, they just have to 310 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 3: take longer to clean the dishes because the water's not 311 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 3: as hot as it was before, so it takes longer 312 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 3: to do the dishes. 313 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: But the savings. 314 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 3: Are in the dollar or less per year range, very 315 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 3: very trivial, and the inconvenience is much greater than that. 316 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: And again, if you. 317 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: Have to wash the dishes before or afterwards, you're really 318 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 3: now a negative territory. 319 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: Okay, so you may have to actually wash the dishes 320 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 1: you put in the dishwasher because the dishwasher can't wash. 321 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,239 Speaker 1: This is a sort of perfect Joe Biden model. The 322 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: dishwasher actually can't wash the dishes, so you have to 323 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: wash the dishes, and then you have to put them 324 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: in the dishwasher already pretty clean because you can't trust 325 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: the dishwasher to wash it. Do I have that sort 326 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: of right? 327 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 328 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 3: Because of their crazy economic assumptions, we end up with 329 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 3: appliances that don't do the job. 330 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: It's crazy. 331 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: We went through a cycle of this with toilets under 332 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter, where they decided they would lower the amount 333 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: of water to such a degree the people then had 334 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: to flush two or three times, thereby ending up using 335 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: more water than they used to use. It's interesting to 336 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: watch these guys. It's like they're playing tic tac toe 337 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: in a world of chess. So okay, moving on now 338 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: from gas stoves and dishwashers. They're not satisfied there. They're 339 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: not also paying attention to gas furnaces. Can you explain 340 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: a little bit of what they're trying to do there? 341 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 3: Well, As with the stoves, furnaces come in natural gas 342 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,239 Speaker 3: and metric versions, and the efficiency standards would skew the 343 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: market away from gas, which is three times cheaper on 344 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: a per unit energy basis, towards electricity. Again, poorly thought 345 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 3: out attempt to fight climate change. For consumers, it means 346 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 3: fewer choices. And yes, electric heat may work perfectly well. 347 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 3: Heat pumps may work perfectly well for some homes, But 348 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 3: no two homes are exactly alike, No two homeowners are 349 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 3: exactly alike. And we all know our own individualized circumstances 350 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: and preferences. 351 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: Better than any Doe. 352 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: Bureaucrat, And so the best thing for consumers is wide 353 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 3: choices so that we can pick the best heating system 354 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 3: for our homes. These regulations force us into a narrower 355 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 3: range of choices, and especially towards electric heat rather than 356 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 3: gas heat. 357 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: Well, what strikes me is that all of these changes 358 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: that raise costs hurt the poor. The poor have less 359 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: ability to pay for all these different new things that 360 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: the government regulators want to impose on them, so they 361 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: actually have a lower standard of living based on the 362 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: government forcing them into higher and higher costs for everything 363 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: they want to do, which you would think is the 364 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: opposite of what all time liberals used to worry about 365 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: the poor. 366 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 3: Bad regulations are almost always worse on the poor who 367 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: can afford them the least. I will say the Department 368 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 3: of Energy does address this with all the sensitivity of 369 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 3: Marie Antoinette. They essentially say, well, poor people are renters, 370 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 3: it doesn't affect them, which is of course nonsense. 371 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 2: But you're absolutely right. 372 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: This proportionally hurts the poor people who struggle to pay 373 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 3: their energy bills. It also makes it harder for people 374 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: who aspire to own a home. All these more expensive 375 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 3: appliances raise home prices, and that's the last thing we need. 376 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, And frankly, if you're renting, 377 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: if the price goes up for the landlord, sooner or later, 378 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: it's going to increase your rent. And it's not like 379 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: there's this magic zone here. Unlike the federal government, which 380 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: just keeps borrowing up just past thirty three trillion dollars 381 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: in national debt, the average person can't actually do that. 382 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: Now they've also turned towards air conditioners, and EPA apparently 383 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: now busily working on air conditioners. Can you explain what 384 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: that's all about? 385 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: Well, the challenge for air conditioners, they suffer the one 386 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 3: to two punch of EPA regulations and DOE Department of 387 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 3: Energy Regulations efficiency standards for central air conditioners that took 388 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 3: effect on January first of this year, have raised the 389 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 3: cost of a new central air conditioner by one thousand 390 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 3: or in some cases even fifteen one hundred dollars. I 391 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 3: talked to an air conditioner installar in Georgia. The regulations 392 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 3: are extra tough on southern states than northern states, and 393 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: he says that installations are about one thousand to fifteen 394 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: hundred dollars more. So that's Department of Energy regulations. There's 395 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: also Environmental Protection Agency regulations targeting the refrigerants used in 396 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 3: many of these air conditioners because, well you can probably guess, 397 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 3: because those refrigerants are blamed as its contributors to climate 398 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 3: chains that they're greenhouse gases, so we're going after them 399 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: as well. I would predict that, just as gas stoves 400 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: were the big consumer backlash in twenty twenty three, I 401 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 3: would predict that air conditioner costs starting next summer summer 402 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, that might be the next big backlash, 403 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 3: because the confluence of all these regulations is really jacking 404 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 3: up not just the cost of repairing an existing system, 405 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 3: but even more so the cost of buying a new system. 406 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: They're also looking at washing machines for your clothing. Is 407 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: this parallel to the other argument. 408 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 2: Oh very much so. 409 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 3: And in fact, my organization, the Competitive Enterprises to file 410 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 3: regulatory comments with the Department of Energy on its proposed 411 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 3: closed washer rule. We did those in conjunction with a 412 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 3: repairman named Mike Minino out of Florida, who has been 413 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 3: repairing close washers for decades, remembers what they were like 414 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 3: before these regulations, has to deal with them after these regulations, 415 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 3: and says the difference is night and day. They don't 416 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 3: work as well, they don't clean as well, they don't 417 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 3: last as long, they're tougher to repair. There's even instances 418 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 3: quite a few pomowners who dump a bucket of water 419 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 3: into their close washer or bring in the garden hose 420 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: from outside to squirret in more water because the water 421 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 3: use levels are too low to get the job done. 422 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 3: It's laughable, but you know this is a miracle. Why 423 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 3: can't we get a closed washer that works? And once 424 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 3: again the Department of Energy, rather than trying to fix 425 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 3: past mistakes that have led to problematic cloth washers, they're 426 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 3: doubling down with another round of regulatory restrictions that would 427 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 3: crack down even further, partially in the name of climate 428 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 3: change benefits. 429 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: One analysis said that the greatest regulation will probably raise 430 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,239 Speaker 1: the cost by about one hundred and fifty dollars to 431 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: buy it, but you'll save seven dollars a year. So 432 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: if you keep the washing machine for a minimum of 433 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: twenty five years, you'll break even. Now, if you're relatively poor, 434 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: you don't think in terms of amortizing something over a 435 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: twenty five year period. You worry about the initial cost. 436 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 3: Well, I guess it's an incentive to live longer. But 437 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: they need these payback periods that the time it takes 438 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: to earn back the higher upfront cost in terms of savings, 439 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 3: it gets to be so long that they don't apply 440 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 3: to most people. 441 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: I mean people move. You're not likely to be in 442 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: that residence all that time. 443 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 3: You may not want to keep that appliance, you may 444 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 3: want to move to a different appliance. It just doesn't 445 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 3: make sense if the savings take that long before you 446 00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 3: get back to zero. 447 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: If we could go back to sort of the core 448 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: failure to have a serious systematic analysis. When you talk 449 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: about an electronic vehicle car, you're also talking about batteries, 450 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: And when you're talking about batteries, you're talking about mining, 451 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: and in fact, the estimates of the volume of dirt 452 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: you have to move to make a lithium batteries astonishing. 453 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: So when you look at the total cost, which nobody does, 454 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: I mean, this would be I think a very helpful 455 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: series of congressional hearings to say, let's look at the 456 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: total cost from creating the battery, creating the car, creating electricity, 457 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: building the infrastructure. My guess is we would find that 458 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: this is a staggeringly expensive adventure that people have us 459 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: off on, and that it is one of the biggest 460 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: misallocations of resources because it's hard to argue that the 461 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: totality of energy needed to do the mining in any 462 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: way is going to be offset. But what you save 463 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: in energy by having electric vehicle, if the total energy 464 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: cost of an electric vehicle is probably greater than the 465 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: energy costs of a traditional vehicle because of all of 466 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: the additional rare minerals and massive investment of mining that's required. 467 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: What am I missing here? 468 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: Are You're not missing anything? 469 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 3: Economists call these substitution risks the commas Soul put it, 470 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: Bessie said, they're always trade offs involved. Yes, gaslined powered 471 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 3: vehicles have tailpipe e missions, but when you compare to 472 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: the reality of the wherewithal as you mentioned, to make 473 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 3: an electric vehicle battery, it's very very questionable whether you're 474 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 3: doing any good environmentally. You're certainly not doing any good geopolitically, 475 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: given how much oil is now in the United States 476 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 3: thanks to the Focking Revolution, compared to all of the 477 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 3: minerals that will have to be produced and refined elsewhere 478 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: because we're not doing that in the United States. There's 479 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 3: a number of issues with electric vehicle batteries. It's important 480 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 3: to note that even from a greenhouse gas emissions standpoint, 481 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: they start out in the hull. It costs more in 482 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: energy to make an EV than it does to roll 483 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 3: a gasoline powered vehicle off the assembly line. 484 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 2: Presumably you save with us, but again that could take 485 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: a long time. 486 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 3: You're starting in the whole economically, they cost more, the 487 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: sticker prices are higher, but you're also starting in the 488 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: whole environmentally, because there's a lot that goes into producing 489 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: an electric vehicle that has an environmental impact. None of 490 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: this has been thought through very well. 491 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: Kevin Diarrochna, a Parentage, studied, for example, the gas stove 492 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: regulation and said that the amount of savings that the 493 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: APA is projecting by going to this change would actually 494 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: amount in terms of temperature change if you believe the 495 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: current temperature change models would be four ten thousandth of 496 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: one percent to a high of nine ten thousandths. This 497 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: is not nine percent, this is nine ten thousandths of 498 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: one percent. Now, these are the kind of things that 499 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: I think verge on idiotic. And I noticed that you 500 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: brought a real sense of boldness shining light in the 501 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: program when you testified on September twenty second, twenty twenty one, 502 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: and you just came straight out and said we ought 503 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: to really consider sunsetting all of these household appliance orgulitry programs. 504 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: Would you expand on that? 505 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: Well, the problem with these agencies, and especially agencies that 506 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 3: are authorized to revisit these regulations, is that it's in 507 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 3: their institutional interest to keep on regulating and regulating. And 508 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: in fact, for a lot of these home appliances, we're 509 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 3: literally on the third, fourth, fifth, sometimes sixth round of 510 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: increasingly tighter standards with diminishing or non existent marginal returns 511 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: and rising and rising costs, and there's no end in sight. 512 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: And now climate change has been used as the latest 513 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 3: excuse for an even additional round of regulations. There's no 514 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 3: good government solution to these regulatory agencies. I know for 515 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: a long time people have searched for one. I think 516 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 3: you just have to take away the authority and put 517 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 3: that power back in the hands of consumers, back in 518 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 3: the hands of the American people. I really don't think 519 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 3: there's any really good solution except to stop these appliance regulations. 520 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: You know, there are some. 521 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 3: Reforms that would be helpful in legislation that would do that, 522 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 3: But I think the ultimate solution is to take this 523 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 3: power out of the hands of Washington regulat. 524 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: And isn't the problem that we've shifted to a bureaucratic 525 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: state with the elected officials actually delegates such huge amounts 526 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: of power. All this comes down to random human beings. 527 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: It's not like there's some somebody somewhere got hired, they 528 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: have a job. They very often move into a particular 529 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: zone because they want to control the American people, and 530 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: they have a particular bias about controlling them. And somehow 531 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: we have to really rethink the whole administrative state as 532 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: a model, because it takes you away from Lincoln's concept 533 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: of government of the people, by the people and for 534 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: the people. And instead moves you into a model of 535 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: government of the elites, by the elites, and for the 536 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: elites at the enormous expense of the American people. So 537 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: I really appreciate the work you're doing and the way 538 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: you approach it. And I thought, given the topics we're 539 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: talking about today, we are right in people's lives, and 540 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: I think the work you're doing is really important. Ben. 541 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me and for 542 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: helping us understand these regulations and more detail and why 543 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: they're creating a system that forces the American people to 544 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: buy what government insists do we buy now what we want. 545 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: Is an extraordinary time, Andvent, I appreciate your commitment and 546 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: the work you're doing and the courage you're showing. 547 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. 548 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Ben Lieberman. You can learn 549 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: more about the Biden Administration's electric vehicle and appliance regulations 550 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is 551 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: produced by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 552 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: is Guernsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 553 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley Special 554 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've 555 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 556 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 557 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 558 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld consign up from my three 559 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: free weekly columns at gingerstree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 560 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.