1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld, My guest today spent thirty 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: three years with the FBI. His new book is part 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: memoir and part history, from the shooting of President Reagan 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: and the death of Princess Diana to the TWA Flight 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: eight hundred crash and even getting marching orders from Mother Teresa. 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: His story shows how the FBI has played a pivotal 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: role in our country's history, but over time, many Americans 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: have lost faith in the Federal Bureau of Investigation, an 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: institution they once regarded as the world's greatest law enforcement agency. 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: Specific laps at the FBI have come to light, and 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: each is thoroughly discussed in his new book, The Fall 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: of the FBI, How a once great agency became a 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: threat to democracy. So I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: Thomas Baker. He has over thirty three years of investigative 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: and management experience as an FBI special agent. Thomas, welcome 16 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me on newch World. 17 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, mister speaker. 18 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: I'm very curious why did you decide to join the 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: FBI in the first place. 20 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: Oh, wow, you're going way back. Well, my family had 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: a history in law enforcement. My grandfather when he came 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: to this country from Ireland, became a policeman in the 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: city of Brooklyn when it was its own city. And 24 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: then his sons, who were my uncles, my maternal uncles, 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: both became New York City policemen. And when I was 26 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: a little boy, I hear their stories and it kind 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: of awokened an interest in me. It's something I always 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: wanted to do, and I was lucky enough to get 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: into the FBI. 30 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: So at that stage, I mean, what attracted you to 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: the FBI, rather than say, becoming a policeman on. 32 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: The beat, actually accepted as I finished college to go 33 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: into the New York City Police Department. And then I 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: found out, just to happenstance, that there was a possibility 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: to enter the FBI. Up till then, I had believed 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: what was widespread that every FBI agent was at law 37 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: school graduate and I didn't have that. But they told 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: me I could join the FBI, work a year or 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: two and then take a test and try to get 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: into agents training, which is exactly what I did. I 41 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: took that advice and I did that, and I'm forever 42 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: glad that I did. 43 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: You worked in the FBI photo laboratory. The technology they 44 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: must have used in that period back in nineteen sixty 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: seven must be amazingly different from what we see around 46 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: us today. 47 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: Yes, it was in all regards except for one simple thing, 48 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 2: which was for US twenty one year olds. It was 49 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: rather exciting with the photo lab in New York City 50 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: also did the mugshots, and as the agents brought in prisoners, 51 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 2: bank robbers, extortionists, organize crime figures, some of them quite 52 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: well known, we got to actually take their pictures and 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: process their photographs, and that also continued to whet my 54 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: appetite for that kind of work. 55 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: You've reported your book that during your FBI training you 56 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: received weeks of lectures on the US Constitution and especially 57 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: in the Bill of Rights. Describe that experience. 58 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: Well, that's fundamental, and actually I harken back to that 59 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: towards the end of my book when I talk about 60 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: the ugliness of the last few years, that there has 61 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,559 Speaker 2: to be a re emphasis on the primacy of the Constitution. 62 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: Most of our classroom work was actually on the Constitution, 63 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: and we had some wonderful instructors. Outside the classroom, of course, 64 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: we got engaged in firearms training, and defensive tactics and 65 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: things of that nature. But in the classroom was the Constitution. 66 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: And I hadn't gone to law school, although I was 67 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: generally familiar with the Constitution. But these instructors really did 68 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: a wonderful job, and they told us that we in 69 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: law enforcement should not see the fourth, fifth, and sixth 70 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: the Amendments as obstacles to getting the job done, but 71 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: we should embrace them. And I've told that story to 72 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: friends who were defense attorneys, and they find it even 73 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: hard to believe. But that's what we were taught back then. 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: And we had one instructor in particular, and he called 75 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: us boys back then. We were all men, were no 76 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: women yet, and he gave us a pocket sized copy 77 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: of the Constitution and told us to keep it in 78 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: our breast pocket, and that if we were interviewing a 79 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: citizen or searching somebody's home and we had the Constitution 80 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: in our pocket, we would never go off track, we 81 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: would never do wrong. And most of us did exactly 82 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: follow that advice. Now that sounds corny to a lot 83 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: of people today, but that's actually how this love of 84 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: the Constitution was given to us, and most of us 85 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: did embrace it. 86 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: So in that setting, do they still today have that 87 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: kind of intensive education into our constitutional rights. 88 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 2: If they do, it's not taking. And of course, in 89 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: addition to the special agents, another problem which I only 90 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: get into very little bit in the book, it's been 91 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 2: brought to my attention by current people in the Bureau. 92 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: They have this whole cadre since the September eleventh of 93 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: intelligence analysts, and they don't work as special agents do 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: under the limits of the guidelines of the Constitution. And 95 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 2: these intelligence analysts are the ones who come up with 96 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: all what I will call crackpot schemes, such as targeting 97 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: Catholics who prefer the Latin Mass and things like that. 98 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: That all originates with the intelligence analysts. But because of 99 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 2: my preaching in op eds and other places, I've been 100 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 2: told by ranking officials in the Bureau that in the 101 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: last two or three years, one of the things they 102 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: put in effect is now again issuing a pocket sized 103 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: copy of the Constitution, which had stopped for years, to 104 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 2: all new employees, not just new special agents. So that's 105 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 2: a tiny step in the right direction. 106 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: You were the first FBI agent on the scene when 107 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: President Reagan was shot in March of nineteen eighty one. 108 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: Yes, I was, and there's a lot of lessons to 109 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 2: be drawn from that. And I did devote a hull, 110 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: rather lengthy's chapter in the book to that historic event. 111 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 2: And because it was historical, I felt. There's several historic 112 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 2: events I mentioned in the book, all of them that 113 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: I had some involvement in, sometimes just on the periphery. 114 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: But why I mentioned them is because I could bring 115 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: one or two little facts forward that the general public 116 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: probably don't know or don't realize. 117 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: What is it you saw in Hinckley's effort to kill Reagan? 118 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: The first thing, mister Speaker was I arrived on the scene. 119 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 2: It was quite a stressful and chaotic situation through a 120 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: series of circumstances. I arrived on the scene within minutes 121 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: of the shooting actually taking place. They were hustling Hinckley 122 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: away the Secret Service in the Washington Metropolitan Police Department. 123 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: The first lesson I learned right away was the importance 124 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: of knowing your counterparts, of having good relations with broadly speaking, 125 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 2: the state, in law police, other law enforcement agencies. I 126 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: had a fear we had been taught in agents training 127 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: and the Secret Service had heard the same thing, and 128 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: people like yourself. You're historian, you're very well aware of this. 129 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: We had studied the assassination of President Kennedy and what 130 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: happened at the end of that. As you know, it 131 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: was a fiasco from the law enforcement point of view, 132 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: the FBI, the Secret Service, the police, the Sheriff's office 133 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: in Dallas. They were all fighting with each other. It 134 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: wasn't clear who was doing what, who was in charge. 135 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: So as I was driving to the scene in those 136 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: two or three minutes, I had that was in my 137 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: mind that, oh, my goodness, I hope I don't wind 138 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: up in a turf war here of fight. But that 139 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: didn't happen because I knew most of these people involved 140 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: in the other agencies, and they knew me, and they 141 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: knew my face. There was absolute cooperation. Everybody worked together. 142 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: There was no problem. And that's the number one most 143 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: important lesson. I learned the importance of knowing your counterparts 144 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: in that situation. 145 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: You also had some thoughts about what happened to Princess Diana. 146 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: Yes, well, what happened was my last assignment in the FBI, 147 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: next to last assignment towards the end of my career, 148 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: at the end of the nineteen nineties. I was the 149 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: illegal attache at the American Embassy in Paris. Legal attache 150 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: is a title given to FBI agents who are signed abroad, 151 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: and early in the morning I received the phone was 152 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: early in the morning in Paris, because Europe is five 153 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: or six hours ahead of the United States. I received 154 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: a frantic phone call from the embassy switchboard that President 155 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: Clinton was on the line from Martha's Vineyard and he 156 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 2: had just heard a news blast on CNN that Princess 157 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: Diana had been in a terrible auto accident in Paris 158 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,359 Speaker 2: and he wanted to know the details. So the switchboard 159 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: operator couldn't reach anybody else reached me. I was able 160 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: to reach some of my police contacts in the city 161 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 2: of Paris police and they told me what had happened. 162 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: At that moment. She hadn't died yet, according to the 163 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 2: infant the police gave me, So that was my first 164 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: wake up call. And then, of course I was very 165 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: alert about it and followed all the developments. But there 166 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: was no case for the FBI in that it was 167 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: a tragedy. Everybody was interested in it, but it was 168 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: the death of a British princess. In what was a 169 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: traffic accident. 170 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: Did you end up briefing President Clynton. 171 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 2: No, The information was relayed back through the switchboard operator 172 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: to the White House operator. Specifically, he wanted to know 173 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: where she was, and the police were able to tell 174 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 2: me she had been taken by that time to a 175 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 2: Pacific hospital in Paris Sants Petier, and that's what he 176 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: wanted to know. So I didn't get to talk to 177 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: him personally. But a number of years later, after I 178 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: retired from the FBI, was doing consulting work. I was 179 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: recruited by Muhammad al Fayez, a law firm, to go 180 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: to London and to go to Paris and to investigate 181 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: certain aspects of the case, which I did, and that's 182 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: a whole chapter in the book too, and it was 183 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 2: very revealing and everything I found convinced me, and I 184 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: tried to convey that to Muhammed al Fayed, that this 185 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: was simply a traffic accident. But it also became very 186 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: apparent that which the royal family tried to deny repeatedly, 187 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: is that there was a real romance going on between 188 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: Dodie Alphayeed and Princess Diana. He had just brought her 189 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: a wedding ring, which a lot of people know that. 190 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: But what I found out that's not well known is 191 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: the two of them had spent over an hour in 192 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 2: Paris inspecting the house, the mansion on the edge of 193 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: the Bois de Boulogne, that the former Duke and Duchess 194 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: of Windsor, who was formerly King Edward, had lived in 195 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: for many, many years, and the Muhammad al Fayed had 196 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: gotten a hundred year lease on that building from the 197 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: French government who were the ultimate owners, and was fixing 198 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 2: it up for them to live in. And they spent 199 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 2: an hour that afternoon inspecting that house. So that also 200 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: convinced me that this was a serious romance and they 201 00:10:58,160 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: had serious long term plans. 202 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: At a totally different level, you had some involvement with 203 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: the TWA Flight eight hundred crash in nineteen ninety six, 204 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: which was a very kind of unusual moment. I went up, 205 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: actually I was speaker at the time. I went up 206 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: and I talked to the FBI people who are trying 207 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: to piece it all together. This plane crashes about twelve 208 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: minutes after takeoff, and there was a lot of question 209 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: about whether it was a terrorist attack. 210 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: What was your sense, Well, immediately like everybody else in 211 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: the United States government. The plane was on route towards 212 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 2: Paris when it crashed, and there were forty five French 213 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: people on board, and the immediate reaction of everybody the 214 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: assumption was because it was a time of just after 215 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: a lot of other terrorist incidents, which you probably very 216 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 2: well remember this, So the assumption was that it was 217 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: a terrorist incident, and that's the basis on which the 218 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 2: FBI began the investigation. The New York office of the 219 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 2: FBI the heaviest staffing, and they also had a very 220 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: good working relationship. Once again gets to this issue of 221 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: cooperation with state and local police. The New York City Police, 222 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: the Nassau County, Suffolk County police on Long Island were 223 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: all worked hand in glove with the FBI on the 224 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: crash site. I was working on the French end of it, 225 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: and we had a lot of leads there because so 226 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: many of the passengers were French and also most of 227 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: the cargo. In fact, all the cargo on the plane 228 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 2: was headed for France, so we had to find out 229 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: the cargo handlers and run that down because there might 230 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 2: be a bomb in the cargo. So it was very revealing, 231 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: and we had a number of problems because there were 232 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: so many conspiracy theories afoot, including a lot that were 233 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: propagated by PS Salinger, who was quite a famous individual 234 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: at the time and commanded a lot of respect because 235 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: of his previous association with President Kennedy. 236 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: Was your final conclusion that it was not a terrorist 237 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: there was just mechanical. 238 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: The conclusion was after about nine months investigation. The conclusion 239 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 2: was that it was an accident because of these fuel 240 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: vapors in the center fuel tank, and that's with the 241 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: NTSB as well as the airline manufacturer of Boeing all 242 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: concluded along with the FBI team. The FBI had a 243 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 2: lot of manpower on it because, as you say, initially 244 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: we thought it was a terrorist incident. But once again 245 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: it was an example of a lot of cooperation. And 246 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 2: it was a fantastically challenging case on the French end 247 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: because the French had opened their own investigation. They didn't 248 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 2: want to interfere with ours, but we had to keep 249 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: them in the loop. And one thing I mentioned in 250 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: the book, we had a lot of different French officials 251 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: come over to view the crash site, and the New 252 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: York Office of the FBI did a magnificent job. They 253 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: would helicopter them out from the city out to the 254 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: site on Long Island where the Center Mauritius, where the 255 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: plane was being reassembled. But on the way with our 256 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: French visitors, and I was with them on one of 257 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 2: these trips, they'd always divert when the helicopter went off 258 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: and take the French visitors out to the Statue of Liberty. 259 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 2: Lady Liberty, of course, was a gift from the French 260 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: nation to the United States, and it's still kind of 261 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: revered in France. And they would take the helicopter and 262 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 2: I don't know if this was even within air traffic rules, 263 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: but with the FBI helicopter pilots did. They'd take the 264 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: helicopter right up to the face of Lady Liberty with 265 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: the French visitors in the helicopter. And I'll tell you, 266 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: mister speaker, I saw some very high ranking French officials 267 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: reduced to tears when that happened. The New York Office 268 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: really knew how to treat visitors like that. 269 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: That's a great strike. Now you may be the only 270 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: FBI agent to have received marching orders from Mother Teresa. 271 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: I had the chance to meet her when I was 272 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: speaker and we honored her in the Congress. But I'm curious. 273 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: She was a very tiny person, but she was clearly 274 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: in command and tell us about getting marching orders from 275 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: mother Teresa. 276 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 2: Well, your two comments that you was a tiny person 277 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: and very much in command, that's my impression too. She 278 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: also spoke English in very short declarative sentences. And this 279 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: was actually an alumni event. There were about forty men 280 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: graduates of Fordham College. We met her in a tiered 281 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: classroom on the Catholic University campus. She was actually in 282 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: Washington visiting President Ronald Reagan at the time, and she 283 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: looked up at the forty of us and her opening 284 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: words were kind of shocking in themselves. She said, don't 285 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: try to be like me. You're not called to do 286 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: what I do. And then she said, you have important 287 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: jobs here in Washington. God wants you to do those 288 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: jobs well. And then she said you are fathers and 289 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: you are husbands, and God wants you to do those 290 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: jobs well. And a lot of us remarked later that 291 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: she didn't say you have a family. She said you're 292 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: a husband and a father, two different jobs you had 293 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: to do both those jobs. Well, even then we knew 294 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 2: she was a saint, and we said, boy, we have 295 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,359 Speaker 2: just been given some assignments. 296 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: That's great. She was remarkable, and you're right she did 297 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: have this abbot to communicate with intensity. Hi, this is newt. 298 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: In my new book, March the Majority, The Real Story 299 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: of the Republican Revolution, I offer strategies and insights for 300 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: everyday citizens and for season politicians. It's both a guide 301 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: for political success and for winning back the Majority in 302 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. March to the Majority outlines the sixteen 303 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: year campaign to write the Contract with America. Explains how 304 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: we elected the first Republican House majority in forty years 305 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: in how we worked with President Bill Clinton to pass 306 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: major reforms, including four consecutive balanced budgets. March to the 307 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: Majority tells the behind the scenes story of how we 308 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: got it done. Here's a special offer for my podcast listeners. 309 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: You can order March the Majority right now at Gingrishfree 310 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash book and it'll be shipped directly 311 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: to you. Don't miss out on a special offer. Go 312 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: to Genglishtree sixty dot com slash book and order your 313 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: copy now. Order it today at genglishwree sixty dot com 314 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: slash book. On May seventeenth this year, he wrote a 315 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal article entitled the Durham Report finds bad 316 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: apples have spoiled the FBI. Why did you write it 317 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: and what was your conclusion? 318 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: Well, my conclusion I would have had quite a reverse article, 319 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: because my contention is that it's not just rotten apples. 320 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: Director Ray, the current director of the FBI, he keeps 321 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: talking about rotten apples, and every time there's a bad incident, 322 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: he points out that the bad characters are no longer 323 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: with us. They've either been fired or resigned. My contention is, 324 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: the problem is not the rotten apples. The problem is 325 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: the culture, the change in culture. And that's what I 326 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 2: explained a little bit in that piece, But mainly in 327 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: that piece, I just point out some of the things 328 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 2: which I'm sure you've dirtly read digested, that the shocking 329 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: things that Durham has found out about. Essentially, this entire 330 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: cross by a hurricane investigation of the Trump campaign was 331 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: started with absolutely no predicate information, no reasonable reason to 332 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: start that investigation. That's Durham's main finding. He made many others, 333 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 2: but that in itself is just so terribly shocking. 334 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: The question for the average American is were these a 335 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: handful of people who are out of control or is 336 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: this a culture which has gotten sick. 337 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: It's a culture. I really believe it's a culture. And 338 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: it started with Bob Mulla, in my opinion, and was 339 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 2: exacerbated by the poor leadership of James Comy, who's probably 340 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: the worst director total that the FBI ever had. But 341 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: Mulla set out about deliberately after September eleventh to change 342 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: the culture of the FBI. I mean, he told us that, 343 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: and he also told us of this incident, which I 344 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: explained in the book set him on this track, or 345 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: that accelerated his pass down that track. This September eleventh 346 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 2: attack happened on a Tuesday. He had only been director 347 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: of the FBI for two or three days. On the Saturday, 348 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: September fifteenth, he was called to give a briefing to 349 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: President George W. Bush at Camp David, the presidential retreat 350 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: in the mountains in Maryland. And he went up there 351 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: and he had the FBI's report of the investigation up 352 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: to that moment. Now, there was only about three and 353 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: a half days between that Tuesday attack and early Saturday 354 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 2: morning when he's there with the report and what had 355 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: happened in those three and a half days. The FBI 356 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: had done what they do best, investigate, and they had 357 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: identified all nineteen hijackers. They had identified their travel, they 358 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: had identified their financing, they had identified all their connections 359 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: back to Alcada. I mean, it was a heck of 360 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 2: a lot of investigation in three and a half days. 361 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: It was very thorough, and Moullas told us this. He 362 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: presented this report expecting prey or thanks, and when he 363 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: was done, George W. Bush just looked at him in 364 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: that room and said, I don't care about that. I 365 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: just want to know how you're going to prevent the 366 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: next one. That gave him more impetus for his change, 367 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: and he told us that he was determined after to 368 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: change the culture of the FBI away from a law 369 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: enforcement mindset to an intelligence mindset. Now to a lot 370 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: of people at that moment in history, that might have 371 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: made sense, but unfortunately it had a lot of unintended consequences, 372 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 2: a lot of bad consequences. 373 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: I said at the time, I really worried me. As 374 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: a historian, domestic law enforcement requires a presumption of innocence. 375 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: Intelligence operations almost always assume a presumption of guilt. It's 376 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: extraordinarily dangerous. You have your largest and most prestigious national 377 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: police operation operating as though it's an intelligence agency. It's 378 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: almost guaranteed to lead to the infringement of the people's liberties. 379 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: You're right, miss the speaker, and you make a good 380 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 2: distinction between law enforcement and intelligence, a very good distinction. 381 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: One of the things I point out is, first of all, 382 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 2: in the United States and the FBI, many many people 383 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: and speakers in the FBI, and I did this for years, 384 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: speaking to groups and explaining the FBI overseas to people 385 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: that the United States of America was blessed, blessed to 386 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 2: have as its domestic security agency, a law enforcement organization, 387 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: because a law enforcement organization, by training and culture, works 388 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: within the boundaries, in the case of our country, the 389 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 2: boundaries of the Constitution. I fear now what's turned into 390 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: it's been turned on its head, and we now are 391 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: cursed to have a domestic intelligence organization with police powers. 392 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: And that's a curse. It's amazing how this flip flop 393 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 2: has occurred. 394 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: Well, and it's enormously dangerous to everybody. One of the 395 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: things I've gotten involved in recently as a natural next 396 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: step in this process of becoming gigantically large and isolated 397 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: from the American people, sort of the opposite of the 398 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: classic FBI, which had bureaus, had an agent in different cities, 399 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: they were connected to the local police in many ways. 400 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: Washington was a long way off, and they've changed all 401 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: that so that they're all now an extension of Washington. 402 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: And now they're talking about building a headquarters for three 403 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: and a half billion dollars, which would be literally larger 404 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 1: than the Pentagon. And it strikes me as the worst 405 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: possible next step for the FBI. Well, what am I missing? 406 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 2: Oh, you're not missing anything. You've put your finger on it. 407 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: And once again this goes back to Muller and call 408 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: me Muller decided, and I think you have a total 409 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: understanding of how the FBI works. Traditionally, they had this 410 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: system they called the Office of Origin system of field 411 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: office would run the case and send out leads sometimes 412 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: to other field officers that they called the auxiliary office. 413 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: So you had a case agent, he had a field 414 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: supervisor over him. There was a special agent in charge 415 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 2: of that office. So you had all these independent layers 416 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: of review, and then the ultimate reporting did go to 417 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: headquarters and they were removed from it independently in a 418 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 2: detached fashion, looked at it. Mulla wanted to change all that. 419 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: At the time, several of the people in the Bureau 420 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: pushed back very heavily on this, but he overruled them 421 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: all and he wanted the pent bomb investigation, which was 422 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: the Bureau's code name for the investigation of the September 423 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 2: eleventh attack, done in headquarters. And then later on with Komy, 424 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: they did the same thing with the Hillary Clinton email 425 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: and the Russian collusion investigation. So what that did was 426 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it was a disastrous It eliminated all these 427 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: levels of review that I just described, And so you 428 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: have a situation which is now documented. In fact, it's 429 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 2: documented again in the Durham Report. You have a guy 430 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: in headquarters, a deputy Assistant Direct Peter Struck, opening the 431 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 2: investigation of the Trump campaign, and then the next day 432 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 2: going to London to conduct the first interview in that investigation. 433 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 2: So you have the same people making the decisions in 434 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: the investigation as who are actually doing the investigation, eliminating 435 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: all levels of review and independent judgment. It was bound 436 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: to end badly. 437 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: Because the agency has grown so dramatically in its interest 438 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: in every American, because every American is potentially a danger. 439 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: As you pointed out earlier, there are memos saying that 440 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: if you're a Catholic and you believe in Latin mass 441 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: you could be potentially a terrorist. I mean, this kind 442 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: of stuff would be insane if it wasn't so typical 443 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: of where we are right now as a country. But 444 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: it's also just gargantuan. I mean, this budget went from 445 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: nine million in nineteen forty to over four billion now, 446 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: and they have thousands and thousands of employees on a 447 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: scale that really does risk them becoming a national police 448 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: in a way that's totally different than historically how the 449 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: United States thought about these things. I'm very concerned. I 450 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: think your book really begins to give us a flavor 451 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: of how bad it was. Could you talk to just 452 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: for a minute about there are three sort of parallel cases. 453 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: There's the Hillary Clinton case, which I've never understood because 454 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: I would think that deleting thirty two thousand emails and 455 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: having one of your staff physically use a hammer to 456 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: break up a hard drive would be almost on the 457 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: surface of it, guilty of some kind of crime. And 458 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: then you have the totally phony Russian hoax case, which 459 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: I think in many ways crippled the Trump presidency. And 460 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: then finally you now have this resistance to investigate the 461 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: Biden family and their relationship with at least four different 462 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: dictatorships in terms of money. How do you explain all 463 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: of those behaviors. Is it a cultural problem, is it 464 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: that the fix is in. Is it a corruption problem? 465 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: Or what is happening to what was once an extraordinary 466 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: law enforcement agency. 467 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: Well, you already summed it up correctly, and you pointed 468 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 2: out those three major things. I think it's a cultural problem. 469 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 2: And one of the specifics of the cultural problem is 470 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: this centralization in headquarters with all of those investigations you 471 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: just mentioned, and the first one which quite frankly, I 472 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: know the least about the Hillary Clinton email thing. What 473 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 2: I do know about it is there was resistance to 474 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: the decisions that Camy was making in headquarters by agents 475 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 2: I'm turned by supervisory agents in the New York office 476 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: at that time. Call me announced to the world. I mean, 477 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 2: he took it upon himself. Another example of his crazy 478 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: poor leadership. He took upon himself to usurp the role 479 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: of the prosecutor and he went on television and declined 480 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 2: prosecution of Hillary Clinton because he said that main issue 481 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 2: was the intent was missing according to him. Then later 482 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: with the Russian collusion investigation, you're absolutely right, and that 483 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: of course is the focus of Durham's report. There was 484 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: no justification whatsoever for opening that investigation. It was only 485 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: a rotten culture that allowed that to happen. And then 486 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 2: when you look in depth of Durham's report, and a 487 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: side issue with that before Durham was this other US 488 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: attorney who was hired by Bill Barr. Jensen was hired 489 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 2: to just look at a couple of the specific cases, 490 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 2: like the General Flint case. He interviewed a number of 491 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: agents who were trying to work on that, and their 492 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: FT three h two is the results of their interviews 493 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 2: is available online now for anyone to read. They just 494 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: were stymied at every point by people on quote unquote 495 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: the seventh floor of the FBI, which is the director 496 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 2: and the deputy director. So that's another cultural rot. And 497 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: then you have the current situation today where as you say, 498 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: they're sidetracking a lot of the things involved with the 499 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: Biden family, and once again, even in that case, each 500 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 2: time now in recent years, the current director Ray, he 501 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 2: points out defensively that well, the bad people are all gone. 502 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: They're no longer with us. Even in this most recent 503 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 2: thing with the Biden family, the Asak, assistant Agent charge 504 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 2: of Washington Field, who had oversight of that investigation, it 505 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: came out in an internal look at it that he 506 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: was deep sixing the whole thing, poo pooing it and 507 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: helping to put out the press information that there's nothing 508 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: to it. It's all Russian disinformation. T Boat was his name. 509 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: He was shown the door, he was allowed to walk 510 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 2: out the door at the end of a Friday. So 511 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 2: Ray says, well, they're gone now again, It's not just 512 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 2: the rotten apples, he being another example of a rotten apple. 513 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: It's the culture that has allowed this to happen. To 514 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 2: change culture, you have to recognize that there's a problem 515 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: with you culture, and I don't think that has happened, 516 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: at least at the level of direct array. I have 517 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 2: met in recent months since my book's been out, numerous 518 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 2: on board agents or agents who've resigned or retired within 519 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: the past year. And they all tell me, boy, brother, 520 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: you got it right on. This is what's going on. 521 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: For people like me, it's actually heartbreaking. 522 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: It seems to me that the agency you joined was 523 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: in many ways the most respected and most prestigious law 524 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: enforcement agency in the world, and now it is decaying 525 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: into a level of political corruption and political behavior that 526 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: has no relationship to the FBI that you once worked with. 527 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: That's correct. 528 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: It's a huge challenge for the Congress because ultimately the 529 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: FBI is a creature of what the legislative branch will tolerate, 530 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: and there are enough examples here that I think they 531 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: need a pretty thorough overhaul of their systems and their approaches, 532 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: and if anything, they need to re turn power back 533 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: to the local agents in the field and restrict significantly 534 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: the kind of centralization that's been going on. I mean, 535 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: that would be my bias. 536 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: Well, you're exactly right again, mister speaker. So most of 537 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: this has to be done by the FBI itself recognizing 538 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: the problem. There is a very there's definite and specific 539 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 2: roles for Congress in the process. Of course, as you 540 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: know in theory, the biggest role for Congress and the 541 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: biggest weapon the House particularly has is the budget. But 542 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: there are specific things abuses came up and are identified, 543 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 2: and I identified them in my book Fall of the FBI. 544 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: Abuses came up in two specific areas, One with PHIZA. 545 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 2: The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act was originally designed just to 546 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: gather have a way of gathering intelligence on foreign agents 547 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: resident within this country, so that would be the task 548 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 2: of the FBI, and they created the PHISER Act to 549 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 2: do that. It was not initially intended to ever be 550 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: used against Americans, but now it's routinely used against Americans. 551 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: And we saw that in the Russian collusion investigation where 552 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: they had four PHISA warrants on this fellow page. And 553 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 2: in the end of the day, he really did nothing 554 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: wrong and had no involvement with the Russians and no 555 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: evil involvement with the Russians whatsoever. 556 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: We ought to point out to people when that happens, 557 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: your reputation is shattered, your career may be ruined, and 558 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: your legal fees may be astonishing, and in the entire 559 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: experience you were innocent. 560 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: Yes, reform of PHIZA is something as totally within the 561 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 2: power of the Congress to address, and they can get 562 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: it back to its original intention. It is a useful tool, 563 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: but its original intention of only using it on foreigners, 564 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: not on American citizens. The Congress can make that reform. 565 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: Another reform, which is a lot more subtle, is a 566 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: thing that called now called the Five Eyes, that has 567 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: grown out of the special relationship between Britain and the 568 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: United States where we share all intelligence with each other 569 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: and we supposedly guarantee that we'll never spy on one 570 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: another other. Well, what happened, and it came up a 571 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: little bit at the beginning of the Russian collusion thing, 572 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: and Durham even didn't dwell on this much, but it's 573 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: definitely documented there, and it's come up in numerous other examples. 574 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 2: The United States and Britain each separately have guarantees in 575 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: the written statutes against spying on their own people, against 576 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: having their electronic spying systems. In our case, the NSA 577 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: spy on our own people, and in fact, the CIA 578 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: and the NSA are forbidden spying Americans. Any intelligence activity 579 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 2: in the United States States is supposed to be done 580 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: by the FBI. Britain has similar laws on their citizens 581 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: on their subjects. But this arrangement came into play at 582 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: the outset of the Russian collusion investigation, and this has 583 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: been going on for years. Allows them to spy on 584 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: one another's citizens and the information they pick up out 585 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: of the air with all electronic surveillances going on, and 586 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: then they can disseminate it to the other country. In fact, 587 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 2: they're supposed to share everything with the other country. So 588 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: Britain is a backdoor for spying on Americans, and America 589 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: is a back door for spying on Britain. Now, I've 590 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: hardly seen anything in the American press about this. The 591 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: British press from time to time really gets on their 592 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: high horse about it. And then the Princess Diana case, 593 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 2: it came up that the NSA had over a thousand 594 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: pages of transcripts of Princess Diana's personal conversations. 595 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: That's clearly collusion to avoid the law. 596 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that Congress could address that with specificity. 597 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: That's good, No, that's really really helpful. Candidly, I think 598 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: Congress can also stop this gigantic new office, which will 599 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: be somebody said actually might be larger than the total 600 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: amount of footage occupied by the Vatican, and certainly larger 601 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: than the Pentagon, which I think is about as big 602 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: a symbol of how far off track the FBI has 603 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: gotten as you could imagine. Yes, we got to have 604 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: fewer people in Washington and more people back home, and 605 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: the other return to being basically law enforcement, with information 606 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: sharing only as it relates directly to a direct threat, 607 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: but not this kind of excuse to go out and 608 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: spy on people. I want to thank you for joining me. 609 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: Your new book, The Fall of the FBI, How a 610 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: once great agency Became a Threat to Democracy is a 611 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 1: fascinating read because your life has been fascinating. I encourage 612 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: all of our listeners to get a copy of your book, 613 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: and we're going to link to it on our show page. 614 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for educating us. 615 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Thank you very much, mister speaker. 616 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Thomas Baker. You can get 617 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Fall of 618 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: the FBI on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 619 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: Newtswell is produced by Game with three sixty and iHeartMedia. 620 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan and our researcher is 621 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by 622 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: Penley Special Thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. 623 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to 624 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 625 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 626 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of Nutsworld can sign up 627 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: for my three freeweekly columns at gingwishtree sixty dot com 628 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Nutsworld.