WEBVTT - Zootopia Exposed! (Part One) 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.436 Bushkin. On a recent snowy day, I took my four 0:00:25.476 --> 0:00:27.356 and a half year old to a movie theater on 0:00:27.436 --> 0:00:31.396 Manhattan's Upper West Side. This was only her second time 0:00:31.596 --> 0:00:35.956 ever at the movies. She was very excited. I bought 0:00:35.956 --> 0:00:40.236 her a large tub of popcorn. The theater was crowded. 0:00:41.436 --> 0:00:44.916 We were there to see Disney's Zutopia Too, a film 0:00:44.956 --> 0:00:48.516 that is now the highest grossing animated movie of all time. 0:00:49.316 --> 0:00:52.716 We sat enraptured for the better part of two hours, 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:55.156 and at the end she turned to me and said, 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:59.476 thank you, Daddy, And I said to her, Oh, this 0:00:59.716 --> 0:01:03.996 wasn't for you, this was for me. I'm an assignment. 0:01:07.636 --> 0:01:10.916 My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 0:01:11.116 --> 0:01:15.236 my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. The story I'm 0:01:15.276 --> 0:01:18.516 about to tell you is the strangest Hollywood story you 0:01:18.556 --> 0:01:22.316 have ever heard. It makes no sense, It invites all 0:01:22.356 --> 0:01:25.436 manner of absurd speculation. It's going to take us two 0:01:25.516 --> 0:01:28.356 episodes to unravel it, and even then your mind will 0:01:28.356 --> 0:01:30.796 be in such a swirl that you will almost certainly 0:01:30.796 --> 0:01:35.156 feel compelled to seize Utopia two for yourself. And if 0:01:35.196 --> 0:01:37.876 you've already seen it, to grab any one of your 0:01:37.916 --> 0:01:41.796 available children and see it again. And to whisper under 0:01:41.796 --> 0:01:46.636 your breath when you think your little companion isn't listening. WTF. 0:01:51.236 --> 0:01:53.356 All of this started when we got a call from 0:01:53.436 --> 0:01:56.836 Angus Fletcher saying a friend of his needed to speak 0:01:56.876 --> 0:02:00.156 to me. It was urgent. The friend had a story 0:02:00.196 --> 0:02:02.676 to tell, a story with so many layers. The friend 0:02:02.756 --> 0:02:04.876 said that there was no way to do it justice 0:02:04.916 --> 0:02:09.556 in a single episode two minimum for future reference. If 0:02:09.556 --> 0:02:11.916 you need to get my attention, this is the way 0:02:11.916 --> 0:02:14.636 to do it, all right, can you hear me? They 0:02:14.636 --> 0:02:20.356 are Gary, Angus. The gang is back together right away. 0:02:20.756 --> 0:02:22.716 I hopped on a zoom with two of them. 0:02:22.996 --> 0:02:24.636 If you want, I mean, I can tell you how 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:27.716 the story started, and then Gary, you wanna go? 0:02:27.836 --> 0:02:29.196 Okay, all right? Jump in. 0:02:29.716 --> 0:02:32.556 If you are a longtime listener of Revisionist History, you 0:02:32.596 --> 0:02:35.916 will know the name Angus Fletcher. He's an English professor 0:02:35.956 --> 0:02:40.356 at Ohio State and runs their narrative project. I love Angus. 0:02:40.636 --> 0:02:43.636 I think Angus is a genius. Angus has been featured 0:02:43.796 --> 0:02:47.836 on more Revisionist History episodes than anyone else. Our three 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:50.676 part rewrite of the Little Mermaid in Defense of Paw 0:02:50.716 --> 0:02:53.956 patrol and and this is relevant to the story I'm 0:02:53.996 --> 0:02:56.556 about to tell you. We did a series of episodes 0:02:56.556 --> 0:03:00.476 a few years back called Development Hell, where we interviewed 0:03:00.556 --> 0:03:03.836 screenwriters about their best idea that never made it to 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:07.076 the screen, and the Angus came on to talk about 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:11.036 an absolutely been nana sci fi project he worked on 0:03:11.076 --> 0:03:15.276 with a good friend of his, the Hollywood screenwriter Gary Goldman. 0:03:15.916 --> 0:03:18.676 And during that episode I concluded that not only is 0:03:18.716 --> 0:03:22.756 Angus a genius, but Gary is a genius too. Anyway, 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:24.876 back to the matter at hand. 0:03:25.116 --> 0:03:28.156 So basically I get a phone call from Gary, and 0:03:28.196 --> 0:03:30.436 Gary and I are old friends. We brought together in 0:03:30.436 --> 0:03:32.596 a bunch of screenwriting projects. Gary's one of the most 0:03:32.596 --> 0:03:35.356 famous and eminent screenwriters in Hollywood. If you love the 0:03:35.556 --> 0:03:37.676 end to Total Recall, you can thank Gary for that. 0:03:38.956 --> 0:03:41.396 Gary Goldman grew up in the South. He was a 0:03:41.396 --> 0:03:45.276 protege of the novelist Walker Percy, went to Brandeis, spent 0:03:45.396 --> 0:03:47.716 some time working in a hospital in Israel during the 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:51.876 Yongkpur War, ended up in Hollywood and has worked with 0:03:51.996 --> 0:03:58.076 everyone Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron Ridley, Scott, David Fincher, Steven Spielberg. 0:03:58.356 --> 0:04:00.476 So Gary calls me up and he goes, Angus, have 0:04:00.556 --> 0:04:03.236 you seen Disney's latest movie? 0:04:03.476 --> 0:04:03.676 Here? 0:04:03.796 --> 0:04:07.476 Angus is referring to the first Zotopia film, which came 0:04:07.516 --> 0:04:11.316 out in twenty sixteen, featuring a rabbit named Judy Hops 0:04:11.516 --> 0:04:14.796 and a con artist fox named Nick Wilde, who live 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:18.476 in a world inhabited entirely by animals, and who have 0:04:18.516 --> 0:04:21.716 to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance 0:04:21.756 --> 0:04:27.156 of predators. It's very good Zutopia, a gleaming city. 0:04:28.876 --> 0:04:33.196 Were animals of all breeds, predator and prey alike, lived 0:04:33.196 --> 0:04:35.356 together in peace and harmony. 0:04:35.996 --> 0:04:39.636 Zutopia did very well. It grows to zillion dollars and 0:04:39.676 --> 0:04:43.316 won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature. Gary watched all 0:04:43.316 --> 0:04:44.996 this success closely. 0:04:44.876 --> 0:04:46.556 And it's a big deal. I mean, it's a big family. 0:04:46.556 --> 0:04:48.236 But I got to send you to pictures of us 0:04:48.316 --> 0:04:52.276 drinking champagne when Zutopia won won the Academy Award. I mean, 0:04:52.516 --> 0:04:56.716 this is our lost daughter who knew Yah was doing great. 0:04:57.196 --> 0:05:00.076 Why was this such a big deal for Gary? Here's 0:05:00.076 --> 0:05:01.436 what he told Angus. 0:05:01.636 --> 0:05:03.196 And so he tells me the story of how he 0:05:03.236 --> 0:05:05.796 goes to the Disney, how he pitched them this idea, 0:05:05.916 --> 0:05:08.196 how he wrote it down on a physical document which 0:05:08.196 --> 0:05:10.916 he gave to and he goes, I think they might 0:05:10.956 --> 0:05:13.876 have stolen my idea. I said, what's on this document? 0:05:14.076 --> 0:05:16.836 And Gary goes to me, okay, Well, in my pitch 0:05:16.916 --> 0:05:21.996 it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want 0:05:22.036 --> 0:05:25.516 to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And 0:05:25.556 --> 0:05:29.156 in Disney's movie, it says, quote you want to be 0:05:29.156 --> 0:05:32.076 an elephant, when you grow up, you can be an elephant. 0:05:32.596 --> 0:05:35.036 And in Gary's pitch it says, this is going to 0:05:35.076 --> 0:05:37.756 take place in a land where quote an animal can 0:05:37.796 --> 0:05:40.836 be whatever it wants to be. And in Disney's movie 0:05:40.876 --> 0:05:42.676 it says this is going to take place in the 0:05:42.756 --> 0:05:46.836 land where quote anybody can be anything. And then I 0:05:46.876 --> 0:05:49.716 say to Gary, what is this land? And Gary says 0:05:49.756 --> 0:05:54.156 to me, in my pitch, it's called Zootopia, And amazingly, 0:05:54.836 --> 0:05:58.436 in the Disney movie, it's called Zootopia. 0:05:58.996 --> 0:06:03.316 Wait, okay, so there's so many things to to to 0:06:03.556 --> 0:06:07.156 pick up on. Gary, take me back to the beginning 0:06:07.196 --> 0:06:11.676 about the origins of the idea of a movie called Zutopia. 0:06:12.196 --> 0:06:14.116 What period of time are we talking about here. 0:06:14.476 --> 0:06:18.796 Two thousand, two thousands, Yeah, I have two sons, and 0:06:18.876 --> 0:06:22.596 my sons were I don't know, four and six, and 0:06:23.036 --> 0:06:25.316 you know, at that time, you start thinking about, oh, 0:06:25.356 --> 0:06:28.236 what can I do creatively that my kids can relate to? 0:06:30.076 --> 0:06:35.356 And so I came up under interesting, very specific circumstances 0:06:35.676 --> 0:06:38.036 with the idea for Zutopia. And I'll tell you when 0:06:38.076 --> 0:06:43.196 I came up with the words utopia, I was elated, 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:45.796 and I ran into my house and I ran upstairs 0:06:45.836 --> 0:06:47.076 and I talked to my wife. I said, you're not 0:06:47.116 --> 0:06:49.076 going to believe. I've got the most incredible title. I've 0:06:49.076 --> 0:06:52.796 got the most incredible idea. It's called Zutopia. You know, 0:06:52.916 --> 0:06:54.596 I don't know. I don't think it's such a great idea, 0:06:54.916 --> 0:06:57.156 I said, trust me, trust me, it's a really it's 0:06:57.156 --> 0:07:02.116 a really good name. In fact, we can't say this 0:07:02.156 --> 0:07:05.556 word in front of the kids because if we say 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:07.396 this word in front of the kids, they're going to 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:10.876 go to school and they're the parents of these kids 0:07:10.916 --> 0:07:13.436 are in show business, and then the word is going 0:07:13.516 --> 0:07:16.036 to get out, and it's very hard to protect a title. 0:07:16.676 --> 0:07:18.516 Yeah, so we just have to keep secrecy. 0:07:18.836 --> 0:07:20.036 Yeah, we had to keep it secret. 0:07:26.156 --> 0:07:29.316 Fast forward nine years, Goldman's doing a project with the 0:07:29.356 --> 0:07:33.036 comic book legend stan Lee for Disney, and he goes 0:07:33.036 --> 0:07:35.476 to the Disney exec he's working with and he says, 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:38.876 I have this idea, gives them an eight page outline 0:07:38.876 --> 0:07:42.476 of the concept. It's called Looney. It's about an animator 0:07:42.516 --> 0:07:46.996 who creates an animal world called Zootopia. He has drawings 0:07:46.996 --> 0:07:49.756 of the animals who are going to inhabit the Zutopia world, 0:07:50.156 --> 0:07:54.156 Roscoe the hyena, who is cynical and obnoxious, his ssidekick 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:57.716 Mimi the squirrel, who is cute and curvaceous and optimistic. 0:07:58.316 --> 0:08:00.956 Goldman thinks that this is the best idea he's ever 0:08:00.996 --> 0:08:03.676 had for a movie, and Angus agrees. 0:08:04.156 --> 0:08:05.796 So first of all, I just want to point out 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:08.316 that you have the writer of Total Recall, which is 0:08:08.356 --> 0:08:10.876 generally considered to be one of the greatest stories of 0:08:10.916 --> 0:08:15.036 all time, telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared 0:08:15.076 --> 0:08:16.156 to Zutopia. 0:08:16.316 --> 0:08:17.716 So I should give you some indication. 0:08:18.236 --> 0:08:20.996 And you know, Gary's legitimately a story genius. Why is 0:08:21.076 --> 0:08:23.596 Zutopia so good? Well, because what you're really trying to 0:08:23.636 --> 0:08:27.436 do with a story is not just create a plot. 0:08:27.476 --> 0:08:31.116 You're trying to create a world. That's why Star Wars 0:08:31.156 --> 0:08:35.836 is so brilliant, Because the movie great, But really what 0:08:35.916 --> 0:08:38.356 you want is you want to wander around with lightsabers 0:08:38.396 --> 0:08:40.916 and Darth Vader and the Force and the Jedi and 0:08:40.996 --> 0:08:42.996 Lea and all that kind of stuff, And Zutobia is 0:08:43.036 --> 0:08:47.316 exactly the same thing. Utopia is a mythic universe. When 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:51.356 Gary first told me this, he sent me a basically 0:08:51.476 --> 0:08:53.556 a Bible, which went on for, you know, hundreds and 0:08:53.636 --> 0:08:56.196 hundreds of slides explaining to me all this sort of 0:08:56.236 --> 0:08:59.276 like complex mythography behind Utopia. So I'm not going to 0:08:59.316 --> 0:09:01.036 pretend to be able to kind of expound that to 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:03.156 you here. It was like having a conversation with like 0:09:03.276 --> 0:09:06.716 Joseph Campbell or something. But basically the point is is 0:09:06.756 --> 0:09:10.836 that you have an entire universe in which these animals 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:17.076 are there to expose the lie that you can be 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:18.676 whatever it is that you want to be. I mean, 0:09:18.716 --> 0:09:21.516 that's basically. The twist is that we are all told 0:09:21.756 --> 0:09:24.636 these fables in America growing up, which is you can 0:09:24.676 --> 0:09:25.596 be whatever you want to be. 0:09:25.836 --> 0:09:28.956 Yeah, yeah, Kerry, Yeah. 0:09:28.996 --> 0:09:31.276 Well the idea here is all of us tell our 0:09:31.396 --> 0:09:34.036 kids pretty much, or you have to decide whether or 0:09:34.036 --> 0:09:35.596 not to tell your kids you can be whatever you 0:09:35.596 --> 0:09:38.356 want to do when you grow up, and there's an 0:09:38.436 --> 0:09:41.276 enormous pressure to say it, even though we know as 0:09:41.356 --> 0:09:46.316 adults that's not exactly true. That's really kind of magical 0:09:46.396 --> 0:09:50.196 thinking masquerading as good advice. So do you want to 0:09:50.236 --> 0:09:52.956 send your kids out into the world knowing nothing except 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:54.636 you can be whatever you want to be? And then 0:09:54.676 --> 0:09:56.476 you just go out there and try, try, try, try, try, 0:09:56.556 --> 0:09:58.556 and then you encounter real life and you're not prepared 0:09:58.596 --> 0:10:01.676 for it. On the other hand, if you don't teach 0:10:01.676 --> 0:10:04.036 your kids that, they're going to be totally out competed 0:10:04.636 --> 0:10:07.476 like all the other kids in the class who have 0:10:07.516 --> 0:10:09.076 been told they can be whatever they want to be. 0:10:10.236 --> 0:10:15.836 So I wanted to basically surround this these cliches of 0:10:16.716 --> 0:10:21.436 conventional wisdom with ridiculous any cautionary tales about animals who 0:10:21.476 --> 0:10:22.956 are told they can do whatever they want to be 0:10:23.356 --> 0:10:26.396 and basically encounter the constraints that all of us encounter 0:10:26.476 --> 0:10:27.076 in life. 0:10:27.596 --> 0:10:30.716 The world where all this took place was z utopia. 0:10:31.676 --> 0:10:34.156 Gary takes his idea to the executive he's working with 0:10:34.196 --> 0:10:38.516 a Disney The executive, according to Goldman, basically says, this 0:10:38.636 --> 0:10:41.196 is interesting. Should I give it to the folks over 0:10:41.236 --> 0:10:41.836 to animation? 0:10:42.196 --> 0:10:45.956 I said submit it. He said, okay, and I got 0:10:45.956 --> 0:10:48.036 my papers together and I put it in the portfolio 0:10:48.076 --> 0:10:51.876 and I handed it to him, and then I hear 0:10:51.996 --> 0:10:55.716 from my agent they passed, you know, that's all. They passed. 0:10:56.116 --> 0:10:59.476 Six years go by, and then one day Gary gets 0:10:59.516 --> 0:11:01.276 a call from one of his sons. 0:11:02.116 --> 0:11:04.076 Both of my sons are in the cardigether and they said, 0:11:05.196 --> 0:11:07.556 they said, Dad, we're driving down the freeway and we 0:11:07.596 --> 0:11:09.636 see a billboard and you're not going to believe it, 0:11:09.676 --> 0:11:14.356 but it has your looney characters on it. I said, 0:11:14.356 --> 0:11:15.956 my looney characters. What are you talking about? 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:16.196 Is? 0:11:16.396 --> 0:11:19.796 Yeah, you know, you're you're, You're there. It's a giant 0:11:19.796 --> 0:11:23.596 billboard and it's got your characters on it. And I said, 0:11:23.756 --> 0:11:26.116 that's it. Said what's the name of the movie, And 0:11:26.156 --> 0:11:31.716 he says Utopia, And he had never heard the words Utopia. 0:11:31.756 --> 0:11:33.476 He called me up to tell me that he'd seen 0:11:33.516 --> 0:11:41.596 my Looney characters, So I know, I was flabber guested. 0:11:41.676 --> 0:11:46.356 Obviously, the Goldmans go and sees Utopia at the Grove 0:11:46.396 --> 0:11:49.916 in Los Angeles. They can't believe it. As far as 0:11:49.956 --> 0:11:55.276 Gary can tell, his character Roscoe, the cynical, obnoxious hyena, 0:11:55.516 --> 0:11:59.596 has been turned into Nick Wilde, the cynical, obnoxious fox 0:12:00.116 --> 0:12:04.436 and his optimistic, cravacious scirrel Mimi has become the optimistic, 0:12:04.476 --> 0:12:09.116 cravacious rabbit. Judy Hops Goldman gets one of the biggest 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:12.196 and baddest of law firms, Quinn Emmanuel, to represent him. 0:12:12.596 --> 0:12:16.236 Quin Emmanuel does not usually take suits like this, but 0:12:16.316 --> 0:12:19.356 for Gary, they make an exception. That's how compelling his 0:12:19.476 --> 0:12:24.876 case seems. So Quinn Emmanuel files a lawsuit claiming copyright infringement. 0:12:25.516 --> 0:12:29.916 The case goes on for seven years. Everyone who is 0:12:30.036 --> 0:12:33.516 anyone at Disney is to post. What's Disney's defense? 0:12:33.716 --> 0:12:33.916 Is it? 0:12:33.956 --> 0:12:34.676 They never saw it? 0:12:34.916 --> 0:12:36.156 Yes, never saw it, because, so. 0:12:36.116 --> 0:12:38.916 They claim, is a series of incredible coincidences. 0:12:39.236 --> 0:12:42.996 That's right, Yeah, yes, called independent independent courage. 0:12:42.676 --> 0:12:45.276 Just like I independently created Mickey Mouse the other day. 0:12:45.636 --> 0:12:47.956 Yeah. 0:12:47.996 --> 0:12:53.036 And what happens. Goldman loses, He appeals, loses again, He 0:12:53.156 --> 0:12:56.436 switches to state court, loses. The courts find that the 0:12:56.476 --> 0:13:00.236 similarities between Gary's idea and z Utopia didn't look like 0:13:00.316 --> 0:13:04.356 copyright infringement, and the case is dismissed before the courts 0:13:04.476 --> 0:13:07.556 ever get to the question of whether Disney actually used 0:13:07.556 --> 0:13:12.316 Goldman's pitch. So the Goldmans give up the fight. 0:13:13.316 --> 0:13:15.796 Yeah. 0:13:16.156 --> 0:13:19.436 Now, there are a million things to say here. The 0:13:19.476 --> 0:13:22.236 first is that it isn't surprising that Goldman loses his 0:13:22.276 --> 0:13:26.796 copyright case against Disney. It's almost impossible under current case 0:13:26.876 --> 0:13:29.116 law for a writer to win a case like this 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:33.436 against the studio. In one analysis, two Los Angeles lawyers 0:13:33.596 --> 0:13:37.596 looked at over fifty copyright infringement cases writers brought against 0:13:37.596 --> 0:13:43.236 Hollywood studios, and in every case, the plaintiff lost. The 0:13:43.316 --> 0:13:46.076 law basically says you have to show that your work 0:13:46.196 --> 0:13:49.196 was copied word for a word, and of course you 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:52.676 can steal someone's idea without copying it word for word. 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:55.156 I could go on and on about this, but I 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:59.756 won't because what matters is what happens next. 0:14:00.236 --> 0:14:03.756 Then Gary calls me up a few months ago and 0:14:03.796 --> 0:14:07.156 he says, at Angus, have you seen the sequel to 0:14:07.236 --> 0:14:09.596 z Utopia? And I said, no, Garret, I have not. 0:14:09.716 --> 0:14:11.956 What happens in the sequel to Utopia? 0:14:12.076 --> 0:14:17.036 Exactly? That's the question, what happens in the sequel to Utopia? 0:14:17.676 --> 0:14:20.156 Everyone has a theory. Why do you think I dragged 0:14:20.196 --> 0:14:22.716 my daughter to see z Utopia too? Because I have 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:25.556 a theory. Garry Goldwin has a theory. The team of 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:28.636 movie buffs and literary analysts we put on the case 0:14:28.996 --> 0:14:32.156 have a theory. You will have a theory too once 0:14:32.196 --> 0:14:36.116 you finished listening. And why does everyone have a theory, 0:14:36.676 --> 0:14:40.396 because there is absolutely something weird going on with Utopia 0:14:40.436 --> 0:15:01.516 too that requires a theory. That's after the break. At 0:15:01.556 --> 0:15:05.116 what point do you hear that there's a sequel in 0:15:05.156 --> 0:15:05.516 the works. 0:15:06.396 --> 0:15:08.436 I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies. 0:15:08.556 --> 0:15:11.716 I mean they were making beginning to make the sequel 0:15:11.756 --> 0:15:13.796 while we're still involved in the lawsuit. 0:15:14.316 --> 0:15:16.916 We're back with Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman, and the 0:15:16.996 --> 0:15:20.196 sensitive topic of the sequel has finally come up. 0:15:20.996 --> 0:15:24.356 Oh truly interesting because the main character in the sequel 0:15:24.436 --> 0:15:27.476 to Utopia is called Gary the Snake. 0:15:28.596 --> 0:15:34.436 The sequel's central character is a snake called Gary the Snake. 0:15:34.916 --> 0:15:37.996 And I thought, well, that's obviously they're just planning to know, 0:15:38.156 --> 0:15:41.316 don't make it. Don't make a character a snake unless 0:15:41.316 --> 0:15:43.116 you're planning to. I mean, so you're in. 0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:45.316 The odd thought when you heard of this character, Gary 0:15:45.316 --> 0:15:46.516 the Snake, as it it was. 0:15:47.036 --> 0:15:49.196 An attack on it, as a personal attack on it. 0:15:50.476 --> 0:15:54.156 Now, of course this could just be a coincidence. Gary 0:15:54.236 --> 0:15:56.716 is a common name. There are lots of Gary's in 0:15:56.756 --> 0:15:59.476 the world, so maybe it makes sense there should be 0:15:59.556 --> 0:16:02.756 lots of snakes named Gary as well. This is essentially 0:16:02.796 --> 0:16:06.596 what the Zutopia two screenwriter said in a publicity interview 0:16:06.876 --> 0:16:10.836 with The New York Times. He's because I think Gary 0:16:10.996 --> 0:16:14.396 is a hilarious name. I apologize to the Garys of 0:16:14.436 --> 0:16:17.836 the world. But multiple times over the years, when I've 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:21.836 been writing a nice guy character, it's Gary. But needless 0:16:21.836 --> 0:16:25.436 to say, the Goldman family, fresh off seven years of 0:16:25.516 --> 0:16:29.636 legal hell, do not see things this way? Who gets 0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:32.516 the angriest among all the Goldmans? Who gets the angriest? 0:16:32.756 --> 0:16:35.116 Oh, well, my younger son, I can't show you, but 0:16:35.316 --> 0:16:37.796 I'm in my office and there's a door that has 0:16:37.836 --> 0:16:41.476 a broken hinge, which was when he punched the door 0:16:41.516 --> 0:16:44.596 in anger after one of these rulings. 0:16:45.156 --> 0:16:48.596 The repository of Goldman anger is in the youngest scent. 0:16:49.236 --> 0:16:51.356 Do you know what this is? The psychological principle here 0:16:51.796 --> 0:16:54.916 is called transactive memory. You know how in families we 0:16:55.076 --> 0:16:57.556 store our memories in other members of our family. That's 0:16:57.596 --> 0:17:00.236 why the family unit is so powerful. But you guys 0:17:00.236 --> 0:17:04.756 have transactive anger. So you hear about this and you 0:17:04.836 --> 0:17:08.876 think you have a sense of foreboding. And where do 0:17:08.876 --> 0:17:11.316 you see? When did you go Seesar Twopia two in 0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:11.716 the theater? 0:17:12.396 --> 0:17:15.396 Oh? The day before it opened. I mean we tried 0:17:15.396 --> 0:17:17.436 to you know, we tried to get tickets to screening. 0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:19.556 They wouldn't even give you a ticket to the premiere. 0:17:20.636 --> 0:17:22.316 Oh no, no, they don't talk to me. I mean, 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:25.236 I'm no, no, no, no, I didn't ask them. We're 0:17:25.236 --> 0:17:25.756 not in touch. 0:17:26.156 --> 0:17:30.076 The whole Goldman family, Gary, his wife Judy, their two 0:17:30.076 --> 0:17:33.916 grown sons gather at a movie theater in Dublin, California, 0:17:34.196 --> 0:17:35.596 just east of San Francisco. 0:17:36.156 --> 0:17:38.476 So we go there for sitting and we watches this 0:17:38.556 --> 0:17:41.796 story unfold and my wife says, he looks like you. 0:17:42.196 --> 0:17:44.276 I said, what are you talking about? This snake looks 0:17:44.316 --> 0:17:46.916 like me? He says yeah, she she's an artist. And 0:17:46.956 --> 0:17:48.996 so she says, yeah, I can see how that. I 0:17:49.036 --> 0:17:50.676 think they you know, in any case, she thinks, Garry 0:17:50.716 --> 0:17:51.596 the snake looks like me. 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:56.636 Now does Gary the snake really look like Gary Goldman? 0:17:57.116 --> 0:18:00.876 Or is this just the Goldman's being paranoid? Well, let 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:05.996 me describe Gary Goldman. He's seventy two, his large, expressive eyes, 0:18:06.556 --> 0:18:09.636 a self effacing, understated manner. I mean, and you've heard 0:18:09.676 --> 0:18:12.396 him speak, match that voice to your mental image of 0:18:12.436 --> 0:18:16.356 your kindly uncle. And what is GARYD. Snake? Weirdly? A 0:18:16.556 --> 0:18:22.796 nice snake, a sweetheart snake, large expressive eyes, a self effacing, 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:27.316 understated manner, middle aged with one fang instead of two, 0:18:27.356 --> 0:18:30.796 conceptually defanged as the middle aged so often are. 0:18:32.996 --> 0:18:37.756 Oh Gary, Gary D Snake and your last being snake. 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:42.516 Everything is going to be okay. Gary says that after 0:18:42.556 --> 0:18:45.036 the movie came out, all kinds of people texted him 0:18:45.076 --> 0:18:48.876 to say, Gary, the snake looks just like you. And 0:18:48.916 --> 0:18:50.716 when I went to Caesar Twop You two with my 0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:54.756 daughter right after I'd interviewed Gary, that was my first thought, 0:18:54.796 --> 0:18:58.236 as well, good lord, it's the same guy. 0:18:59.036 --> 0:19:00.956 Oh so. 0:19:03.116 --> 0:19:08.676 Well, Gary doesn't have that cheat. So the the fang 0:19:08.796 --> 0:19:12.556 was afore but but yeah, man, I'm so Gary. Is 0:19:12.636 --> 0:19:16.276 this Gary the snake is sweet? His eyebrows kind of 0:19:16.356 --> 0:19:19.996 go up a little bit, his eyes kind of drew 0:19:20.316 --> 0:19:20.956 a little bit. 0:19:21.556 --> 0:19:24.116 I called up Goldman's lawyer, Debra Drews. 0:19:25.556 --> 0:19:29.436 I mean, this is gonna sound ridiculous. The snake kind 0:19:29.436 --> 0:19:30.556 of looks Jewish. 0:19:30.756 --> 0:19:32.556 Yes, this snake looks Jewish. 0:19:32.836 --> 0:19:41.996 Yeah, said okay, I'm Jewish, so no, uh. Anyway, yes, 0:19:42.196 --> 0:19:45.116 I did think the snake looked Jewish, and I thought 0:19:45.996 --> 0:19:48.956 the way he behaved and the way he moved. Gary 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:53.956 Goldman's a sweet He's a sweet guy. So every once 0:19:53.996 --> 0:19:56.596 in a while that just that Southern charm. And there's 0:19:56.636 --> 0:19:59.636 a little you know, like when you're playing a stringed 0:19:59.676 --> 0:20:02.196 instrument and bend the string and it gives you a 0:20:02.236 --> 0:20:08.596 little it gives you a little twang. That's Gary, you know, charming. 0:20:10.596 --> 0:20:14.276 So yeah, that was That was Gary the Snake. I 0:20:14.316 --> 0:20:16.796 mean that it was clear to me, and I think 0:20:16.996 --> 0:20:19.516 it probably is clear to the people who worked on 0:20:19.596 --> 0:20:20.276 both films. 0:20:20.756 --> 0:20:24.756 Just saying, Oh, by the way, a good chunk of 0:20:24.756 --> 0:20:28.116 the movie takes place in a swampy coastal area called 0:20:28.716 --> 0:20:32.036 marsh Market. And I'm quoting now from a review of 0:20:32.076 --> 0:20:36.076 the movie. Marsh Market could well be the z Utopia 0:20:36.156 --> 0:20:40.876 equivalent of New Orleans. Everybody thinks this. Here's the La 0:20:40.956 --> 0:20:44.476 Times critic Matt Brennan interviewing the screenwriter and director of 0:20:44.556 --> 0:20:46.756 Zutopia before the movie came out. 0:20:47.116 --> 0:20:49.596 That you mentioned Marsh Market, and I have to say, 0:20:49.676 --> 0:20:50.916 is a longtime New Orleanian. 0:20:51.396 --> 0:20:56.316 I love seeing version of a Bye. Why does all 0:20:56.356 --> 0:21:00.436 this matter because Gary Goldbman is from New Orleans, and 0:21:00.476 --> 0:21:04.996 because Gary Goldman is Jewish. But still, I know what 0:21:04.996 --> 0:21:11.236 you're thinking. We haven't yet crossed over into gandal. That's 0:21:11.276 --> 0:21:30.916 after the break. Screenwriters put caricatures of real people in 0:21:30.996 --> 0:21:34.836 movies all the time. Many people believe, for example, that 0:21:34.956 --> 0:21:38.596 Doctor Evil in the Austin Powers movies is Lorne Michaels, 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:43.076 the creator of Saturday Night Live the Villanevian Fleming's James 0:21:43.076 --> 0:21:47.036 Bond thriller Goldfinger. Rumor has it was based on the 0:21:47.036 --> 0:21:51.156 modernist architect Erno Goldfinger, who Fleming was feuding with at 0:21:51.196 --> 0:21:54.836 the time because Goldfinger built an incredibly ugly house down 0:21:54.876 --> 0:21:58.636 the road from him. So what if the Walt Disney 0:21:58.636 --> 0:22:00.796 Company wants to make a movie about a middle aged 0:22:00.876 --> 0:22:04.476 Jewish snake named Gary from New Orleans. That's not a crime. 0:22:05.356 --> 0:22:08.036 But now we get to the heart of the issue, 0:22:09.116 --> 0:22:14.196 which is what is Utopia Too really about? Well, it's 0:22:14.236 --> 0:22:20.156 a movie about intellectual property. Zutopia exists because of incredibly 0:22:20.196 --> 0:22:24.156 sophisticated weather walls. They make it possible for animals from 0:22:24.156 --> 0:22:26.516 all over the world to live in one place. The 0:22:26.556 --> 0:22:30.236 walls were invented by Agnes to Snake, Gary's great grandmother, 0:22:30.516 --> 0:22:32.916 who wanted to build a world where all animals could 0:22:32.916 --> 0:22:35.876 live in harmony, but her pattern was stolen by the 0:22:35.916 --> 0:22:41.396 evil Lynxes who run Utopia. Big chubby, evil Lynxes literally 0:22:41.636 --> 0:22:47.676 corporate fatcats. Listen to how Paupert Lynxley describes his family's scheme, But. 0:22:47.716 --> 0:22:51.476 When my great grandfather saw what her idea could be worth, 0:22:55.796 --> 0:22:59.036 he plotted to steal her plans for himself. 0:22:59.596 --> 0:23:02.556 The lynx has then cast all the Reptiles out of 0:23:02.636 --> 0:23:06.476 Zutopia to keep their theft a secret, and the plot 0:23:06.476 --> 0:23:09.556 of the movie involves the intrepid team of Judy Hops 0:23:09.596 --> 0:23:12.916 and Nick Wilde teaming up with Gary to Snake to 0:23:13.076 --> 0:23:16.396 get the patent back, restore the Snake family's good name, 0:23:16.716 --> 0:23:20.956 and bring reptiles back into the city of Zutopia. The 0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:26.036 whole plot of Zutopia, too, the entire movie is about 0:23:26.076 --> 0:23:29.716 repairing the damage done by the theft of intellectual property 0:23:30.156 --> 0:23:31.836 Snake on the bad guys. 0:23:32.156 --> 0:23:34.636 I have to set things right, and when I do, 0:23:34.956 --> 0:23:38.396 my family will finally be able to come home. 0:23:39.796 --> 0:23:45.116 So t Rika. Just as the Walt Disney Company emerges 0:23:45.316 --> 0:23:48.556