Speaker 1: You're listening to playback a Variety podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Variety Awards editor Chris Tapley. No, I'm good. I'm on
Speaker 1: airplane models. I thought I'm writing as like it's always
Speaker 1: get not me, but this time it was me. You're
Speaker 1: gonna hang in here, Okay, busy day? Yeah? Are you
Speaker 1: working on the holiday? Um? We had as a march
Speaker 1: today in south central Sistols. Yeah, MLK Day. Well of course,
Speaker 1: but I didn't realize you were there. How was that? No,
Speaker 1: it's good, it's necessary, it's like you know, indeed, we're
Speaker 1: in the times. I'm shared. As I said, we're already
Speaker 1: recording just so you know. Um, we have de Rees,
Speaker 1: the writer and director of mud Bound, here with us today.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have my phone out and I swear it's
Speaker 1: just me looking at questions, not checking text messages. Candy
Speaker 1: crushing over there. So you were just down at the march.
Speaker 1: How was that it was earlier? No, it's good, just
Speaker 1: like necessary, you know, so that the people are active
Speaker 1: today or doing something, just being visible. So it was
Speaker 1: Amadi Organizations there. Well, you know, I want to start
Speaker 1: by talking about the big recent news for this film,
Speaker 1: which is Rachel's nomination from the a s C the
Speaker 1: first female DP nominated by the American Society of Cinematographers,
Speaker 1: whichhut things a long time coming obviously. Uh, but you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't know if she would make it either, because
Speaker 1: you know, you never know how things are gonna go
Speaker 1: in the season. But this great work was recognized, And
Speaker 1: what did you think about that kind of the history
Speaker 1: that she made well as well deserved. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: glad that people are recognizing, you know, the craft of
Speaker 1: it and not kind of like you know, making you know,
Speaker 1: decisions about who's seen based on who they are, or
Speaker 1: you know, tokenism. You know, Rachel's work is on the screen,
Speaker 1: so I'm really glad for that. You know, you can
Speaker 1: go to Sandy Cecil and go to Ellen Curis, you
Speaker 1: go to Rachel Morris, and women have been making interesting
Speaker 1: images for a long time. So it's great that finally
Speaker 1: her craft is recognized and that she gets the recognition
Speaker 1: that she's due. Yeah. Uh, what brought you to Rachel?
Speaker 1: I mean I think you've worked You worked with different
Speaker 1: dps on the other two films. Bradford on the first one,
Speaker 1: which is and he's one of the great working. Uh,
Speaker 1: and I think probably you're from Pariah's where he really
Speaker 1: launched yes work. Do you want to Sundance Prize? He did? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then you worked with someone else for Bessie and
Speaker 1: then now Rachel. So what brought you to to Rachel's
Speaker 1: work and working with her? Yeah, I've seen her. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'd known her from like years back when I lived
Speaker 1: in l A. It was like a very kind of
Speaker 1: small like lesbian you know, like seeing or whatever. So
Speaker 1: I knew and her just like socially, like at a distance.
Speaker 1: And then I've seen her work in food fill Station
Speaker 1: and actually Lena Motto I was just finishing Bessie and
Speaker 1: he mentioned her because she was going to do confirmation
Speaker 1: for them or done confirmation. He's like, oh, you should
Speaker 1: know her. She's great and so linked with her because
Speaker 1: of that, and um, yeah, we worked together and she's
Speaker 1: able to really kind of translate you know, the images
Speaker 1: and just kind of like the characters I had in mind,
Speaker 1: and really it's getting those, you know, getting up on
Speaker 1: the screen. So yeah, she's great. Let's dive in there.
Speaker 1: Uh the images? What what was what inspired the look
Speaker 1: of mud Beln. I just watched the movie again last Night,
Speaker 1: which is the first time I've seen it on the
Speaker 1: small screen. I saw I did in the theater actually
Speaker 1: before that, and so you know, always interested in to
Speaker 1: see how a DPS work translates, you know in the
Speaker 1: digital realm, I guess, but yeah, so we didn't look
Speaker 1: at other films. So like for me, like the visual
Speaker 1: art world has always been my inspiration and like you know,
Speaker 1: creating kind of images for the screen, and so for me,
Speaker 1: inspirations where there's artist named Witfield Lavel who does a
Speaker 1: lot of tone on tone of paintings, a temporary artists
Speaker 1: as a sculptor love named Mary Frank who does a
Speaker 1: lot of things that United Bides in landscapes, and then
Speaker 1: Rachel had like Dorothea Lang and all these old w
Speaker 1: p A photos. So we really kind of worked from
Speaker 1: there and wanted the film to feel very kind of candid,
Speaker 1: very kind of like like honest in a way. And
Speaker 1: another thing I love, I love um less blank because
Speaker 1: these documentaries he done this, like this documentary called The
Speaker 1: Truth of Corn and to Lightning Hopkins. So you know,
Speaker 1: we looked at that and like wanted the film to
Speaker 1: have a very kind of moving at the speed of
Speaker 1: life feel so it doesn't feel presentational, it doesn't feel stagey,
Speaker 1: which can be you know, the catch of a lot
Speaker 1: of period pieces. But we wanted to move with the
Speaker 1: speed of life and feel honest, you know. And yet
Speaker 1: it's I wouldn't call it like a verity thing. I
Speaker 1: think it's a it's aesthetically beautiful, uh, you know, working
Speaker 1: I don't know what your budget was, but like were
Speaker 1: there limitations that absolutely we shot this film in twenty
Speaker 1: nine days for ten million dollars, So this is an
Speaker 1: indie film that no one realizes as an indie film,
Speaker 1: and you know, and that was because Ragel was able
Speaker 1: to work so fast and use a lot of lighting,
Speaker 1: and you know, a big you know problem was basically
Speaker 1: we shot in natural share propper's cabin, so like a
Speaker 1: lot of the challenge was balancing like the inside versus
Speaker 1: the outside, and so she actually had to cut holes
Speaker 1: in the ceilings of these cabins to be able to
Speaker 1: put light it's like in the roof of these things,
Speaker 1: so that you know, the value difference wasn't so great
Speaker 1: between the exteriors and interiors and just really you know,
Speaker 1: making these characters feel like they're of the world. And
Speaker 1: I really love to let actors move through the space
Speaker 1: and I don't like blocking that kind of inhibits kind
Speaker 1: of there there, they're flowing. And that's all depend on
Speaker 1: having a DP. This wanted to be flexible with lighting
Speaker 1: and being able to work with you so that the
Speaker 1: actors have maximum freedom, that the actors are able to
Speaker 1: kind of do their best work. Uh, talk about the
Speaker 1: landscape and just the locations, how that informs character for
Speaker 1: you and with this project and maybe how you know
Speaker 1: it would be a question for your actors. I often
Speaker 1: ask actors, how does the landscape inform your performance? And
Speaker 1: and and things like that, because environment is interesting when
Speaker 1: it comes to making faults. Yeah, so and so in
Speaker 1: this case, we shot twenty six days on a sugar
Speaker 1: plantation about tours outside New Orleans, and so that you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that it was an actual working plantation I
Speaker 1: think served to really centralize us and keep everybody in it.
Speaker 1: You know, because Rachel I wouldn't have these three sixty views.
Speaker 1: That means the production couldn't be like near us. And
Speaker 1: so the trailer, the trailers that we did have, and
Speaker 1: like all that base camp had to be like a
Speaker 1: couple of miles down the road, which made the actors
Speaker 1: like really stayed on set, like no one was going
Speaker 1: back and forth, no one was, you know, seeking comfort
Speaker 1: and going to a c like everyone really much stayed
Speaker 1: on pretty much stayed on set, which I think helped
Speaker 1: the rhythm and the flow and just helped the mood
Speaker 1: and we're all kind of suffering together. And then we
Speaker 1: shot two days in Budapest, Hungary, and we said that's
Speaker 1: where we shot the tank battles and we shot the
Speaker 1: village scenes, and so that informed just because you know,
Speaker 1: it was one of the few cities it wasn't like
Speaker 1: destroyed in World War Two, so all the architecture is there,
Speaker 1: and just like the feeling is different. It's like a
Speaker 1: little gray er. We wanted that to feel different than
Speaker 1: the American part of the story. And we shot a
Speaker 1: day actually with is a is a DP name Richard
Speaker 1: Rodkowski who shot the BET twenty five sequences with me
Speaker 1: out in Long Island. We shot at a World War
Speaker 1: two museum and so we just got to beat twenty
Speaker 1: five plane and shot that stuff against green. So I'd
Speaker 1: say the locations overall really served to kind of force
Speaker 1: the actors into like, you know, prop simity, with each
Speaker 1: other and forced them to kind of like stand the material.
Speaker 1: So for example, even like shooting like like the tank
Speaker 1: scenes in Budapest, we shot natural tanks. It's a very hot,
Speaker 1: dark space, which is great because it necessarily limits the angles,
Speaker 1: and so you're really having this kind of um completely
Speaker 1: subjective point of view. So when you're in the tank,
Speaker 1: you're in it as a rounzale fiel. When you're in
Speaker 1: the plane, you're in as Jamie would feel. It's very
Speaker 1: kind of like vulnerable, um small piece of humanity that's
Speaker 1: kind of mismatched, kind of jamited this huge metal object.
Speaker 1: And so I think all that comes across and part
Speaker 1: of the camera language that we really wanted to pay
Speaker 1: attention to was was that as subjective. Like it's these
Speaker 1: different narratives at different points of view. So when we're
Speaker 1: with Henry, we see the land as Henry sees it.
Speaker 1: So for when we're happy see his Hap sees it.
Speaker 1: For example, Henry is one of the only characters we
Speaker 1: shot against Green, you know, because he sees it his
Speaker 1: verd and he sees his opportunity, he sees his commerce
Speaker 1: where his Hap we shoot him more against Brown. You know,
Speaker 1: it's about drudgery is like futility, and so just all
Speaker 1: those kind of things that serve the camera language and
Speaker 1: you know, um for example, and building Ronzel and Jamie's
Speaker 1: are relationship. It was important that that not go to
Speaker 1: saccarine suite. And so you know, we started out you know,
Speaker 1: the blocking wise, like them not touching, and then when
Speaker 1: they are in the truck together, they're not looking at
Speaker 1: each other and they slowly begin to look and we
Speaker 1: shoot it like you know, this kind of stacky way,
Speaker 1: but because they're not looking, it creates this kind of
Speaker 1: like distance, and then that's how we get to the barn.
Speaker 1: You know, then we started moving like handheld like over
Speaker 1: is like in the very last barn scene. So the
Speaker 1: camera lank Whige tells a story of intimacy for example,
Speaker 1: that whole sequence of that those guys relationships. So just
Speaker 1: you know, with a cinematographer, with a production designer, with
Speaker 1: your costumer, you're just always looking to kind of like
Speaker 1: let everything be telling the story, you know, let you know,
Speaker 1: let it be telling the unsaid versus like you know,
Speaker 1: just visual story telling. Yeah, thank you for drilling in
Speaker 1: on all of that. Uh, you know, I was curious
Speaker 1: if working in the period realm on Bessie prepared you
Speaker 1: for this in any way, and also, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: ten million dollars is a tight budget for a movie
Speaker 1: like this obviously, so I don't even A question I
Speaker 1: had was did you feel like you were scaling up
Speaker 1: making the movie? But maybe not because it's all the same. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a smaller budget, and Bessie actually yeah, So
Speaker 1: for me, I think in terms of like the scope
Speaker 1: of it, it felt very huge because we were telling
Speaker 1: you know, like a war story kind of baked into
Speaker 1: like a family drama, and so that piece of it
Speaker 1: was different. But I think like the thing that will
Speaker 1: best that Bestie prepared me for it is like the
Speaker 1: choreography of it all. You know, a dance scene and
Speaker 1: a war scene are similar, and that its people. It's
Speaker 1: it's just people doing the same moves over and over
Speaker 1: as everyone being very clear, and the camera is the
Speaker 1: thing that becomes dynamic that makes it feel like chaos,
Speaker 1: But it's all very choreographed and so in that way,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the same. And then it's just
Speaker 1: working with like extras, like a Bessie that was the
Speaker 1: first fe I had like huge numbers of background and
Speaker 1: even with them, I was kind of tiling them in camera.
Speaker 1: In this film, we didn't have that many more background
Speaker 1: and so it's like how to like populate several fields
Speaker 1: of people, you know, when you only have maybe like
Speaker 1: thirty people. And so it's about, you know, a lesson
Speaker 1: and you know, UM shooting to camera, like telling the
Speaker 1: story and being able to kind of like UM be
Speaker 1: invented of with UM the way you kind of, like
Speaker 1: UM construct portraits and things that do many things at once.
Speaker 1: So just a simple thing is like you know, driving
Speaker 1: the car towards the camera while kids are playing in
Speaker 1: a yard, while people are chopping in a field, and
Speaker 1: gives a feeling of like, you know, this big expansive
Speaker 1: life when maybe it's only like fifteen people. And so
Speaker 1: I think Bessie prepared me for that in way because
Speaker 1: we had to you know, be even that, you know,
Speaker 1: we had to kind of scale down, you know, the
Speaker 1: numbers that we could have. And so it's a way
Speaker 1: that I'm used to working. It's with mud Bound. Is
Speaker 1: that the same thing, how to populate a world with
Speaker 1: you know, very little and even like that that town scene,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, you know, the production value starts
Speaker 1: with location. So we fought for that town location because
Speaker 1: just by having a street they can see down, you
Speaker 1: can kind of communicate this idea of being behind enemy lines.
Speaker 1: Whereas if we had done like the easy thing, which
Speaker 1: might have been to shoot at a general store that
Speaker 1: was right on the plantation, you don't get that feeling
Speaker 1: of danger. And so just a small choice like that
Speaker 1: about location then can like activate an entire sequence and
Speaker 1: give ron Zale all this kind of like long scary march,
Speaker 1: you know to get home, so that we're more worried
Speaker 1: about him on this town street than we are him,
Speaker 1: you know, with things blowing up behind him and so
Speaker 1: um and so yeah, I just really have to have
Speaker 1: a great team and David bombar protection design if they
Speaker 1: give him credit for that, because he was able to
Speaker 1: kind of use what was there in the town and
Speaker 1: supplement it and then by screechesically putting people like by
Speaker 1: putting a wagon outside, you then like make it this
Speaker 1: other world, you know, with no va effects, with you know,
Speaker 1: just like we're able to practically in camera like achieve
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of scale for not a lot.
Speaker 1: That gives me like film school flashbacks. I just remember,
Speaker 1: like shooting a scene and there was it was like
Speaker 1: a you know, like a restaurant scene or something. We
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of people to populate the scene,
Speaker 1: so you just kind of move people to the back
Speaker 1: of their chair up to the frame. It looks like
Speaker 1: they're having with someone exactly, that's right, yeah, yeah. And
Speaker 1: then and then sound design. So I had a great
Speaker 1: post production team, um, like Nancy Islands and music editor um,
Speaker 1: Damien Vullipi, all the guys at Harvard rob Um, oh
Speaker 1: my god, Tony. So all those guys are like, you know,
Speaker 1: they're the same sound design team I worked with on Bessie.
Speaker 1: So now that they could bring you know, all that
Speaker 1: kind of like ability here and so they're into like
Speaker 1: using sound non literally with which I'm interested in. And
Speaker 1: so then the sound design becomes a layer into the
Speaker 1: score from this woman named to Mark how Lea did
Speaker 1: my score and she also did a song for Bessie
Speaker 1: and then was in Pariah. So for me, it's about
Speaker 1: finding kind of like artists that are interesting and bring
Speaker 1: them back again and again because then you know, you
Speaker 1: kind of keep improving on what you tried the last time. Absolutely. Um. Actually,
Speaker 1: speaking of film school, what was your film school experience, Like, um,
Speaker 1: so I went to n y U. It was great,
Speaker 1: and that I had never touched a camera before, but
Speaker 1: you know, it was like challenging that it was like
Speaker 1: trial by fire. So my learning curve was like very steep.
Speaker 1: It's like a lot of the kids had either been
Speaker 1: to art school before, studied you know, um um cinema
Speaker 1: studies or in some form. And for me, I was
Speaker 1: getting it all at once. I was getting Okay, here's
Speaker 1: the references and context and here's the technical side. Go.
Speaker 1: You know, so I made several horrible weekend short films,
Speaker 1: you know, and then you know, you get critiqued. So
Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing about films because it teaches you,
Speaker 1: like how to be critiqued, you know, and it's just
Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: brutal trial by fire, but it's great and that everybody
Speaker 1: touches every piece of equipment, and you know, everyone is
Speaker 1: forced to make their own film, so it's easy to
Speaker 1: critique and you realize, you know versus when it see
Speaker 1: you and your little so many you know camera like
Speaker 1: in your living room trying to make something happen. So
Speaker 1: um so it's great in that way, but it was
Speaker 1: challenging also for that same reason. And for me it
Speaker 1: was about like I didn't have any kind of pedigree,
Speaker 1: your connections, and so film school, like n y U,
Speaker 1: was the way I first was able to get access
Speaker 1: even to just like internships. You know, it's just like
Speaker 1: a way to be able to work for free. Whereas
Speaker 1: you know, if I hadn't had that or hadn't had
Speaker 1: that cover letter, you know, I couldn't have gone on,
Speaker 1: you know, to get someone's coffee, you and make copies
Speaker 1: for somebody, Like, yeah, exactly what were your inspirations going
Speaker 1: into film school? What what brought you to film school
Speaker 1: in the first place. For me, it's funny like I
Speaker 1: had I had applied to the School of Dramatic Writing,
Speaker 1: and I applied to the film production program, and I
Speaker 1: forgot to get into the rioting, but not into the films.
Speaker 1: I've never done film. But um, for me, it was
Speaker 1: like right and it kind of drew me to it.
Speaker 1: This idea that you could kind of like make a
Speaker 1: story and then kind of keep ownership of it and
Speaker 1: then bring it to life was something like that was
Speaker 1: attractive to me. And I think the thing I discover
Speaker 1: is like I really love actors and working with actors,
Speaker 1: and that's where I really get get energized. As like
Speaker 1: writing is like a lonely sport, and then when you're directing,
Speaker 1: you're dealing not only with all your kind of technicians,
Speaker 1: but you're also dealing with actors. And the actors are
Speaker 1: the ones who are vulnerable and want to play and
Speaker 1: have fun. And so I get turned on by that.
Speaker 1: And then editing can be like lonely too, so you
Speaker 1: and your editors. So for me, um, the writing drew
Speaker 1: me to it, but I think the working with actors
Speaker 1: is a thing that like really kind of got me
Speaker 1: um hooked. You know, I'm excited about it. Well, regarding
Speaker 1: the writing, Um, I wanted to talk about about the
Speaker 1: adaptation from mud Bound. Uh, you know, specifically structure. You know,
Speaker 1: I never read the Hillary Jordan novel, but talk to
Speaker 1: me about finding the right struggle finding the right structure
Speaker 1: as well as you know, juggling multiple narrators is like
Speaker 1: gotta be a tight rope walk with a screenplay, right,
Speaker 1: So like, talk to me about that the whole process. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So for me, so mud Bound came already in the
Speaker 1: script form so writing virtual Williams had done the first
Speaker 1: draft of it, and so I went back. So I
Speaker 1: read his script, and usually I hate everything I read,
Speaker 1: but the script I thought, Okay, there's some there there.
Speaker 1: This is interesting that prompting me to go back and
Speaker 1: read the book. And so each character talking, that's a
Speaker 1: conceit of the novel, you know, And so it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily a new idea, like Isabel Wilkerson doesn't warmth them
Speaker 1: with her sons, because other other writers have done it,
Speaker 1: like in nonfiction too, So for fiction, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not interest, it's not a new idea, but it's interesting
Speaker 1: in that finding the balance, to me is the hard thing.
Speaker 1: And then also like how to create kind of like empathy,
Speaker 1: So you what works in novelistic form isn't harder to
Speaker 1: translate on the screen, because how do you get the
Speaker 1: audience to like invest in each worldview, Like how do
Speaker 1: you get the others like invest in each character and
Speaker 1: not just cling to one and be annoyed while while
Speaker 1: anyone else is talking. And so that so for me,
Speaker 1: my approach is to really focus on the Jackson family.
Speaker 1: And I didn't want this to be like another film
Speaker 1: where like you know, one family serving the other. And
Speaker 1: like you know, in the book, a lot of the
Speaker 1: drama centers around this piano and and so Laura plays
Speaker 1: the piano, and it's discovered that the little girl, Lily
Speaker 1: may can sing, and so they kind of bond around that,
Speaker 1: and and that was you know, in the first draft.
Speaker 1: But for me, I wanted their connection to be a
Speaker 1: little darker, you know, in their symbiosis, you know, and
Speaker 1: that you know, the two sons are linked via trauma,
Speaker 1: and so that was interesting. And the two husbands both
Speaker 1: shared the sense of disinheritance, and I found that interesting,
Speaker 1: like one who literally has title to the land and
Speaker 1: one you know, hap Jacks and who you could say
Speaker 1: is this is indeed like entitled to it, you know.
Speaker 1: And then the two women there are women who are
Speaker 1: kind of told by other husbands what to do and
Speaker 1: how to do it, where to spend the money, and
Speaker 1: we're not and they're both disobedient. So that was kind
Speaker 1: of my way in By making the Jackson's equal, then
Speaker 1: you could have this kind of interplay between the two
Speaker 1: families and then this dark mirror of each other versus
Speaker 1: it being them, you know, um connecting something that was
Speaker 1: purely circumstantial, you know, and so um, so my approach
Speaker 1: was to write, you know, new material for the Jackson's,
Speaker 1: like right, rewrite their voice over so that they weren't
Speaker 1: just like you know, what's already happening, but that they
Speaker 1: had a philosophy to a philosophy to them. So HAPs
Speaker 1: home monologue, Um, what good is a deed? So that's
Speaker 1: like original to the book original, you know, it wasn't
Speaker 1: the first script, but it's important to give half context
Speaker 1: with this land, Like he didn't just come with the cabin.
Speaker 1: He has his own dreams and although circumstantially they're kind
Speaker 1: of locked into the orbit, you know, with Mcallen's, they
Speaker 1: have their own kind of trajectory that they're aiming for.
Speaker 1: And the same thing with like Florence. You know, for example,
Speaker 1: a scene where you know she's going to care for
Speaker 1: the kids. So to me, the dramatic tension of that
Speaker 1: scene is not that it's a rainy, slippery night ride,
Speaker 1: but the tension in that scene is like the cognitive
Speaker 1: dissonance that Florence feels about doing the very thing she
Speaker 1: said you would never do. And so then suddenly like
Speaker 1: a scene is like more alive, it's more activated, and
Speaker 1: so I wrote that monologue. I remember my mother blew,
Speaker 1: you know, saying how she didn't see your mother that
Speaker 1: often because you is working. Because then when she walks
Speaker 1: in the door and Laura's like, what is she doing here?
Speaker 1: We know that what hell, Florence don't want to be
Speaker 1: there either, you know, And so then there's a tension.
Speaker 1: But then they can, you know, come to see each other,
Speaker 1: relate as mothers at least, you know, but still there's
Speaker 1: like the darkness where, you know, when Pappy's kind of
Speaker 1: threatening her, you know, Laura's not running into help her,
Speaker 1: you know, like Laura's not a savior. You know, Laura's
Speaker 1: getting what she needs out of this you know, moment,
Speaker 1: but she's not necessarily Florence is like staunch defender. So
Speaker 1: those are choices also that were made, you know, in
Speaker 1: the in the editing room. It's like I wrote like
Speaker 1: a lot of voice over in the edit, and I wrote, um,
Speaker 1: and we cut a lot of voice over that was
Speaker 1: originally scripted because it just felt like, you know, it
Speaker 1: was telling us what we're already seeing. And I just
Speaker 1: believe that the audience is smart, and so I'd rather
Speaker 1: trust the audience to kind of make their own connections
Speaker 1: and to make their own investment versus being kind of
Speaker 1: like um explained to, you know, or shoved information at
Speaker 1: so um and my editor, I should mention is Michael commits,
Speaker 1: you know, and she was brilliant and I should, I
Speaker 1: should cut pay And I knew that was really going
Speaker 1: to be an editing feat to put this film together
Speaker 1: in a way that avoids all the kind of tropes
Speaker 1: and pitfalls of you know, choice or it's like hard
Speaker 1: to do voice over like one characters. So the six,
Speaker 1: you know, Maco really help find like thematic links, you know.
Speaker 1: So for example, we intercut Hat breaking his leg with
Speaker 1: Runzel and battle and that that wasn't originally scripted that way,
Speaker 1: but it created the psychic link. And Jamie we intercut
Speaker 1: his his dog fight with the girls with like whooping cough,
Speaker 1: So it wasn't originally scripted that way, but it created
Speaker 1: this thematic link. So again, everything is not so circumstantial,
Speaker 1: it's not episodic everything, you know, it gets back to
Speaker 1: the theme of people fighting on their own individual fronts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask if there was ever any thought
Speaker 1: given to like just narrowing the perspective at all, just
Speaker 1: just to kind of, I guess, make it easier on
Speaker 1: yourself as a writer or what have you. But a
Speaker 1: story like this, a book like that, I guess you
Speaker 1: just can't do that. I mean, it's these multiple perspectives
Speaker 1: and it has to you have to just figure out
Speaker 1: how to best do that, right. Yeah, it's just like,
Speaker 1: how do you know, I think like when you started
Speaker 1: think about thematic links versus just like chronology or linear things.
Speaker 1: And for example, there are things Michael didn't edit. So
Speaker 1: for example, the home moment where um, Jamie and Laura
Speaker 1: get together. Originally that was supposed to happen, you know,
Speaker 1: um kind of after actually I'm sorry, before Pappy says
Speaker 1: I know about YouTube. And in the edit, michaels like
Speaker 1: what if Pappy says I know about YouTube? And then
Speaker 1: they do it, and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that will never work. It doesn't make sense that because
Speaker 1: these guys talking myself about the baby, She's like, let
Speaker 1: me just try it, and so she did it and
Speaker 1: it activated that love scenes. So then like this kiss
Speaker 1: becomes very dirty because it becomes very subversive because you
Speaker 1: know they're doing it anyway, Like Pappy said, I know
Speaker 1: about YouTube and they do it anyway, and so that
Speaker 1: then elevated that. So I think just you know, the
Speaker 1: edit is definitely like a rewrite, you know, the script,
Speaker 1: and it's a director. You're constantly kind of like just
Speaker 1: being honest about what's happening in front of you and
Speaker 1: trying to make it work. And as to mention, um,
Speaker 1: Michael Boyd, who is my costume designer on this and
Speaker 1: which is a huge part of it, because you know,
Speaker 1: the characters start to have names like Jamie's and darker
Speaker 1: colors Henry's and like noble colors, you know, and like
Speaker 1: all that tells a story about saying much. And Michael
Speaker 1: did the costumes on Bessie, so it was like another
Speaker 1: way that Bessie kind of paid off because I was
Speaker 1: able to work with this guy who I knew could
Speaker 1: do a lot with a little Michael comes to his
Speaker 1: own truck of clothes and just makes it happen. And
Speaker 1: even my makeup artist, Angie Wells, I met her own
Speaker 1: press tour for Bessie because she did my personal makeup
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, you can come and run
Speaker 1: a department. So it's about, you know, kind of create
Speaker 1: this very like naturalist to look for this film where
Speaker 1: I didn't want people to feel like made up. So yeah, absolutely, Uh,
Speaker 1: the author is I believe she's planning a sequel to
Speaker 1: that novel um, which focuses on friends in Germany. Would
Speaker 1: you be interested in coming back to these characters. No,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she's going to find somebody else for that.
Speaker 1: And honestly, that ending that was Virgilist ending and Hilary's
Speaker 1: ending wasn't like that, so I don't know that she
Speaker 1: was osually playing of that. But now she's adapting to Virgins.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know they'll find somebody great for that. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: how do you feel about the Netflix partnership? You had
Speaker 1: a number of choices in front of you almost a
Speaker 1: year ago, and Sundance, Well, I didn't really have a
Speaker 1: number of choices, Like that's the mythology of Yeah, nobody
Speaker 1: made offers on this film, Like people might have been interested,
Speaker 1: but not a single offer came through. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like Netflix that first like bought us, you know, and
Speaker 1: you know, bought us for what we're worth because they
Speaker 1: could have low balled us given that they weren't other
Speaker 1: offers on the table. So then when you read the
Speaker 1: Annaparenta had a deal out there. You're that's that's actually
Speaker 1: not true. Yeah, and an apparenter can call me and
Speaker 1: show me the offer they put out there. No one,
Speaker 1: no one had put offers on this film before Netflix,
Speaker 1: did you know? And it is you know, going into
Speaker 1: the festal we had a lot of interest and people
Speaker 1: wanted to see the film early, and we wouldn't show
Speaker 1: it early. And then we cut to Netflix where no
Speaker 1: one's bidding on it, and so um, yeah, now and
Speaker 1: a point at twenty four, none of that's true. Nobody
Speaker 1: put an offer. Um. I think that for me, I'm
Speaker 1: grateful to Netflix because if not for them, this film
Speaker 1: wouldn't be seen. Because Northern Studio trusted it. Norther Studio
Speaker 1: wanted to put the money into marketing it and to
Speaker 1: put it out there. So Ted Surrandos had the vision
Speaker 1: to see that this film was important, that people were
Speaker 1: smart enough and ready for this to put it out there.
Speaker 1: So I'm grateful to them for it. And you know,
Speaker 1: going in this, my previous experience with Netflix had been
Speaker 1: with Parrie in a way. So even though Paria I
Speaker 1: got picked up by Focus Features, you know, it had
Speaker 1: a small theatrical release, but people didn't really discover Parrie
Speaker 1: until it was on Netflix, and like most people have
Speaker 1: seen it have only seen prior on Netflix. And the
Speaker 1: same thing with this one with mud Bound. You know,
Speaker 1: you just want your work to be seen, and so
Speaker 1: this is like the greatest possible reach. So you know
Speaker 1: this we have like a day, we had a day
Speaker 1: and date release, it's in theaters and it's on Netflix.
Speaker 1: But it feels like it just kind of compressed the
Speaker 1: thing that often always happens with like indie films. Anyway,
Speaker 1: we'll tell me about the Sundayance experience for you that,
Speaker 1: like I said that almost a year ago, you were
Speaker 1: up there. The new edition is kicking off this week
Speaker 1: or next week, and uh, you know, I just actually
Speaker 1: was speaking earlier to day with Luca Guadnino about his
Speaker 1: experience because a lot of the films in the you know,
Speaker 1: Oscar Race this year came out of Sundance last or
Speaker 1: even get Out they had the surprise screening. So it's
Speaker 1: really interesting what was your experience like there, you know,
Speaker 1: send this for me is like you know, because you
Speaker 1: had had you been before, ye prior, right, we're there
Speaker 1: and then p yeah, yeah, no, so I mean that's
Speaker 1: for that reason. Sundance is always kind of a special
Speaker 1: place for me. It's like where I started and it
Speaker 1: was like the first institute that kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: supported me as an artist. So you know, being there
Speaker 1: this time around, you know, it is good. It's like
Speaker 1: nerve racking because when you're there the film, it's like
Speaker 1: the audience's first response to it is the critic's first
Speaker 1: exposure to it. And you know, our Sundance went, you know,
Speaker 1: better than you could have imagined, you know, up until
Speaker 1: like no one bidding on it. But I mean just
Speaker 1: like in terms of the critical response, in terms of
Speaker 1: the audience response, like that's the unknown, and so you know,
Speaker 1: when your first audience is like, yes, we like this,
Speaker 1: and when the first reviews come in and it seems
Speaker 1: to be going well, like, that's stuff you can't control
Speaker 1: because it's all subjectives. So when that happens, you're happy,
Speaker 1: and then you know, the commercial thing then hopefully comes later.
Speaker 1: But yeah, what do you think of the crop of
Speaker 1: movies that came out of there, I mean they're just
Speaker 1: big sick your film Call me about your name? Get out,
Speaker 1: Patty Cakes, Patty Cakes. Yeah, there was the Wound was
Speaker 1: just a four and film from South Africa. You know,
Speaker 1: dots always do well out of there. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: what do you think about that crop of films that
Speaker 1: came out and are still doing well in the awards season. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's fine, Like an opinion, I think it's
Speaker 1: great that, like, you know, a festival you know, can
Speaker 1: really kind of like shape the conversation around films. And
Speaker 1: I'm glad that, you know, I think it used to
Speaker 1: be more kind of industry centric. When it's great that like,
Speaker 1: you know, this festival and other festivals are increasingly becoming
Speaker 1: like bridges and becoming kind of like tastemakers in a
Speaker 1: way for the general public that people actually pay attention
Speaker 1: and people actually watch, you know, and so it just
Speaker 1: creates um a culture I think in a way keeps
Speaker 1: alive kind of a culture of cinema watching and cinema
Speaker 1: critique and cinema going, you know, and doesn't let smaller
Speaker 1: things kind of die on the vine or smaller things
Speaker 1: like not be seen. Yeah. And it's interesting too because
Speaker 1: it seems like movies rarely survive like the full year
Speaker 1: where you're still talking about a Sundance movie, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like maybe one a year, but that there were
Speaker 1: so many this year. It's just really cool. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good programming it out to Cooper. Uh. I also
Speaker 1: just watched your episode of Philip K. Dick's Electric Dreams.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen any of them, but I realized you
Speaker 1: had directed one, and I figured I should watch that,
Speaker 1: and it was fascinating. Also loosely, very loosely based on
Speaker 1: the Hanging Stranger short story. Uh, talk about that and
Speaker 1: working in the world of Philip K. Dick. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: it's doing for a while. So, um, I was doing
Speaker 1: I did a Philip adaptation like a while back with Issa,
Speaker 1: and so I was, you know, Martian time slip and
Speaker 1: so this was great because you know that didn't work out.
Speaker 1: But it's a call m it's a kay, like, come
Speaker 1: do this, and I was like, of course. And so
Speaker 1: sci fi has been a thing I've been trying to
Speaker 1: get into for a while. So it's great to do it.
Speaker 1: And it's just you know, because you can actually kind
Speaker 1: of say more in science fiction, actually do more and
Speaker 1: be more pointed in a way because you know, you're
Speaker 1: saying it's not us quite, it's not now quite. People.
Speaker 1: I think can like, um, I think people have a
Speaker 1: greater critical distance and they can see themselves maybe in
Speaker 1: a way where in a weird way, you can go further,
Speaker 1: you know, sci fi. And I wrote I adapted Kill
Speaker 1: how others um is like right before the election. Like
Speaker 1: I finished it like a week after the election results,
Speaker 1: and so it was insane. So it was it was
Speaker 1: a perfect it was it was a perfect place to
Speaker 1: put my energies. And it was like I wrote it,
Speaker 1: you know during like watching this campaign where I felt
Speaker 1: like this guy was saying you know, unbelievable things and
Speaker 1: it just felt like there's no one else hearing this,
Speaker 1: there's no one else reacting, and then the pundits would
Speaker 1: be reacting to the wrong things or asking the wrong
Speaker 1: questions and so um, you know, I really got to
Speaker 1: write this in a response to a moment where it felt,
Speaker 1: um like all was lost and so yeah, is uh
Speaker 1: it's cool that the anthology world can allow you know,
Speaker 1: a filmmaker who's probably busy with other things to come
Speaker 1: in and knock off an episode like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: is TV something you want to dive into more? You've
Speaker 1: been trying to do TV for a long time as well.
Speaker 1: You know, like remember a while back, I was worked
Speaker 1: on a pilot where Hbo Valla Davis and that didn't go.
Speaker 1: And then I worked on things with Shonda Rhymes for
Speaker 1: effects and that didn't go. And then before then I
Speaker 1: had a spect pilot around about Nashville that didn't quite go.
Speaker 1: So like, I've been trying to break into TV before,
Speaker 1: where like TV was cool. So it's to me, I
Speaker 1: see it as like a bigger canvas and it's someone
Speaker 1: who's interested in characters. TV is like gives you that
Speaker 1: more novelistic deep dive because you don't have to close
Speaker 1: every um bloop at the end of each kind of line.
Speaker 1: You can always kind of leave it open and really
Speaker 1: kind of grow with the person. So I'm excited and um, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens. Something like mud Bound could have
Speaker 1: an interesting life is like a longer you know presentation,
Speaker 1: you know, if it was like a mini series or something.
Speaker 1: Because it's such a dense piece of work. You know,
Speaker 1: that's interesting your next movie. Uh, I think it'll be
Speaker 1: your next movie. This story of Gloria Steinhum and the
Speaker 1: push for equal rights um is very potent time for
Speaker 1: that kind of a project obviously, So I just wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you, what are you hoping to add to
Speaker 1: the overall discourse with that project. Well, I'm interested in
Speaker 1: focusing more on the failure to ratify the r A right.
Speaker 1: And I'm also interested in like the messiness of feminism
Speaker 1: and how someonemen are left behind or someone they are celebrated,
Speaker 1: you know, who becomes quoted, who becomes erased, And so
Speaker 1: I'm exed and getting to the cracks of the movement
Speaker 1: and kind of like how this kind of coalition of people,
Speaker 1: you know, try to do something that didn't quite make
Speaker 1: it and and I think it's like, you know, something
Speaker 1: that is still being struggled with, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of like how to kind of create change, how to
Speaker 1: form coalitions. I feel like fast the thing we're still
Speaker 1: figuring out. So yeah, well good luck with that. And uh,
Speaker 1: definitely check out everybody mud bound. You can do it easily.
Speaker 1: You can just go on your computer or going your
Speaker 1: Apple TV or Chrome or whatever these things are called.
Speaker 1: And uh, watch Mudbound on Netflix. It's one of the
Speaker 1: year's best movies. And look, I really hope you get
Speaker 1: some really good news at the OSCAR nominations next week.
Speaker 1: So good luck. Thanks and watching your laptop, because if
Speaker 1: your TV has that smart setting, it looks like hell yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Well,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Violence is part and parcel of
Speaker 1: punch your life. I learned how to stitch, typically wound, load,
Speaker 1: and fire shotgun. My hands did these things, but I
Speaker 1: was never easy in my mind. I held his heart
Speaker 1: beat in my head all the time he was gone.
Speaker 1: Only oh, I was a liberating people lined up in
Speaker 1: the streets waiting for us. Sometimes I actually miss up
Speaker 1: gaming too. You were always talking about I wander o
Speaker 1: that PAS don't on the way to get up from
Speaker 1: under the fool. I don't want you working for I
Speaker 1: won't be working for them. I'll be working for I
Speaker 1: went off to fight for my country to come back
Speaker 1: to find the head and change a bit. I don't
Speaker 1: know what they let you do over there, but you
Speaker 1: are Mississippi now. You use the back door. Jamie saw
Speaker 1: in a different way, and when his eyes were on me,
Speaker 1: I felt like I was no longer invisible. I've seen
Speaker 1: you slipping after him. Maybe Henry is too thick to notice,
Speaker 1: but you've been open your eyes. Big brother. You're so
Speaker 1: busy one about yourself. If you can't see your own
Speaker 1: wife is miserable. They worked this land or they lie.
Speaker 1: They used to walk away from fright. I'm a woman.
Speaker 1: The land that never would be theirs. You don't need gold,
Speaker 1: can't stay here. They were up until they sweated. They
Speaker 1: sweating until they bleed. They bleeded till they died, and
Speaker 1: died crowing at the hall, brown back, that would never
Speaker 1: be theirs. And I think of the farm, I thinking mine,
Speaker 1: I dreamed, and brown you don fonn is so