WEBVTT - Ep57 - Dee Rees / "Mudbound" 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.000 You're listening to playback a Variety podcast. I'm your host, 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:27.000 Variety Awards editor Chris Tapley. No, I'm good. I'm on 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:37.720 airplane models. I thought I'm writing as like it's always 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:45.760 get not me, but this time it was me. You're 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:52.000 gonna hang in here, Okay, busy day? Yeah? Are you 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.840 working on the holiday? Um? We had as a march 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.200 today in south central Sistols. Yeah, MLK Day. Well of course, 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:00.960 but I didn't realize you were there. How was that? No, 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.680 it's good, it's necessary, it's like you know, indeed, we're 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.319 in the times. I'm shared. As I said, we're already 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.760 recording just so you know. Um, we have de Rees, 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.959 the writer and director of mud Bound, here with us today. 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.240 I'm gonna have my phone out and I swear it's 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:19.320 just me looking at questions, not checking text messages. Candy 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:21.720 crushing over there. So you were just down at the march. 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.520 How was that it was earlier? No, it's good, just 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.600 like necessary, you know, so that the people are active 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.360 today or doing something, just being visible. So it was 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:34.720 Amadi Organizations there. Well, you know, I want to start 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.240 by talking about the big recent news for this film, 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.600 which is Rachel's nomination from the a s C the 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.360 first female DP nominated by the American Society of Cinematographers, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.200 whichhut things a long time coming obviously. Uh, but you know, 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.040 I didn't know if she would make it either, because 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:54.040 you know, you never know how things are gonna go 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.080 in the season. But this great work was recognized, And 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:57.840 what did you think about that kind of the history 0:01:57.880 --> 0:01:59.800 that she made well as well deserved. You know, I'm 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.120 glad that people are recognizing, you know, the craft of 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.520 it and not kind of like you know, making you know, 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.640 decisions about who's seen based on who they are, or 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.359 you know, tokenism. You know, Rachel's work is on the screen, 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.200 so I'm really glad for that. You know, you can 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.280 go to Sandy Cecil and go to Ellen Curis, you 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.639 go to Rachel Morris, and women have been making interesting 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:18.680 images for a long time. So it's great that finally 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.000 her craft is recognized and that she gets the recognition 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.440 that she's due. Yeah. Uh, what brought you to Rachel? 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:25.880 I mean I think you've worked You worked with different 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.120 dps on the other two films. Bradford on the first one, 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.200 which is and he's one of the great working. Uh, 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.600 and I think probably you're from Pariah's where he really 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:39.760 launched yes work. Do you want to Sundance Prize? He did? Yeah, 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:41.679 and then you worked with someone else for Bessie and 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.359 then now Rachel. So what brought you to to Rachel's 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.959 work and working with her? Yeah, I've seen her. Actually, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.160 I'd known her from like years back when I lived 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:50.640 in l A. It was like a very kind of 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.320 small like lesbian you know, like seeing or whatever. So 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.440 I knew and her just like socially, like at a distance. 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.320 And then I've seen her work in food fill Station 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.040 and actually Lena Motto I was just finishing Bessie and 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:01.840 he mentioned her because she was going to do confirmation 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:03.640 for them or done confirmation. He's like, oh, you should 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.000 know her. She's great and so linked with her because 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.520 of that, and um, yeah, we worked together and she's 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.120 able to really kind of translate you know, the images 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.119 and just kind of like the characters I had in mind, 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:15.919 and really it's getting those, you know, getting up on 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.400 the screen. So yeah, she's great. Let's dive in there. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.399 Uh the images? What what was what inspired the look 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.440 of mud Beln. I just watched the movie again last Night, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:26.640 which is the first time I've seen it on the 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.080 small screen. I saw I did in the theater actually 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.280 before that, and so you know, always interested in to 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.960 see how a DPS work translates, you know in the 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.480 digital realm, I guess, but yeah, so we didn't look 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:39.400 at other films. So like for me, like the visual 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.680 art world has always been my inspiration and like you know, 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.240 creating kind of images for the screen, and so for me, 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:46.920 inspirations where there's artist named Witfield Lavel who does a 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:48.800 lot of tone on tone of paintings, a temporary artists 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:50.840 as a sculptor love named Mary Frank who does a 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.920 lot of things that United Bides in landscapes, and then 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.320 Rachel had like Dorothea Lang and all these old w 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.040 p A photos. So we really kind of worked from 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.040 there and wanted the film to feel very kind of candid, 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.600 very kind of like like honest in a way. And 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.680 another thing I love, I love um less blank because 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.960 these documentaries he done this, like this documentary called The 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.720 Truth of Corn and to Lightning Hopkins. So you know, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:13.600 we looked at that and like wanted the film to 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.159 have a very kind of moving at the speed of 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:21.920 life feel so it doesn't feel presentational, it doesn't feel stagey, 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:23.800 which can be you know, the catch of a lot 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:25.920 of period pieces. But we wanted to move with the 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.160 speed of life and feel honest, you know. And yet 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:29.840 it's I wouldn't call it like a verity thing. I 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:34.520 think it's a it's aesthetically beautiful, uh, you know, working 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:36.920 I don't know what your budget was, but like were 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.159 there limitations that absolutely we shot this film in twenty 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.120 nine days for ten million dollars, So this is an 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.440 indie film that no one realizes as an indie film, 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:46.400 and you know, and that was because Ragel was able 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.360 to work so fast and use a lot of lighting, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.960 and you know, a big you know problem was basically 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:52.839 we shot in natural share propper's cabin, so like a 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.480 lot of the challenge was balancing like the inside versus 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.880 the outside, and so she actually had to cut holes 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:59.520 in the ceilings of these cabins to be able to 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.279 put light it's like in the roof of these things, 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.760 so that you know, the value difference wasn't so great 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.400 between the exteriors and interiors and just really you know, 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.960 making these characters feel like they're of the world. And 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.640 I really love to let actors move through the space 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.680 and I don't like blocking that kind of inhibits kind 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.720 of there there, they're flowing. And that's all depend on 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.200 having a DP. This wanted to be flexible with lighting 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.120 and being able to work with you so that the 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.440 actors have maximum freedom, that the actors are able to 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:29.000 kind of do their best work. Uh, talk about the 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.200 landscape and just the locations, how that informs character for 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.160 you and with this project and maybe how you know 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:38.560 it would be a question for your actors. I often 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.400 ask actors, how does the landscape inform your performance? And 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.200 and and things like that, because environment is interesting when 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:45.960 it comes to making faults. Yeah, so and so in 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.480 this case, we shot twenty six days on a sugar 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.320 plantation about tours outside New Orleans, and so that you know, 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.120 the fact that it was an actual working plantation I 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.919 think served to really centralize us and keep everybody in it. 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.719 You know, because Rachel I wouldn't have these three sixty views. 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.200 That means the production couldn't be like near us. And 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.400 so the trailer, the trailers that we did have, and 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.279 like all that base camp had to be like a 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.839 couple of miles down the road, which made the actors 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:12.599 like really stayed on set, like no one was going 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.880 back and forth, no one was, you know, seeking comfort 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.560 and going to a c like everyone really much stayed 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:19.640 on pretty much stayed on set, which I think helped 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:21.719 the rhythm and the flow and just helped the mood 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.159 and we're all kind of suffering together. And then we 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.720 shot two days in Budapest, Hungary, and we said that's 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:28.520 where we shot the tank battles and we shot the 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.640 village scenes, and so that informed just because you know, 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.200 it was one of the few cities it wasn't like 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.040 destroyed in World War Two, so all the architecture is there, 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.320 and just like the feeling is different. It's like a 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.440 little gray er. We wanted that to feel different than 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.240 the American part of the story. And we shot a 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.880 day actually with is a is a DP name Richard 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.479 Rodkowski who shot the BET twenty five sequences with me 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.360 out in Long Island. We shot at a World War 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.359 two museum and so we just got to beat twenty 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.120 five plane and shot that stuff against green. So I'd 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.800 say the locations overall really served to kind of force 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.640 the actors into like, you know, prop simity, with each 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.080 other and forced them to kind of like stand the material. 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.400 So for example, even like shooting like like the tank 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.360 scenes in Budapest, we shot natural tanks. It's a very hot, 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.520 dark space, which is great because it necessarily limits the angles, 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.680 and so you're really having this kind of um completely 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.040 subjective point of view. So when you're in the tank, 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.200 you're in it as a rounzale fiel. When you're in 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.280 the plane, you're in as Jamie would feel. It's very 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:26.000 kind of like vulnerable, um small piece of humanity that's 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.840 kind of mismatched, kind of jamited this huge metal object. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.360 And so I think all that comes across and part 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:32.960 of the camera language that we really wanted to pay 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.280 attention to was was that as subjective. Like it's these 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.080 different narratives at different points of view. So when we're 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.080 with Henry, we see the land as Henry sees it. 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.120 So for when we're happy see his Hap sees it. 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.160 For example, Henry is one of the only characters we 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.160 shot against Green, you know, because he sees it his 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.600 verd and he sees his opportunity, he sees his commerce 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.120 where his Hap we shoot him more against Brown. You know, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.080 it's about drudgery is like futility, and so just all 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.160 those kind of things that serve the camera language and 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.880 you know, um for example, and building Ronzel and Jamie's 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:02.240 are relationship. It was important that that not go to 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.680 saccarine suite. And so you know, we started out you know, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.440 the blocking wise, like them not touching, and then when 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:11.680 they are in the truck together, they're not looking at 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:13.640 each other and they slowly begin to look and we 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:15.520 shoot it like you know, this kind of stacky way, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.400 but because they're not looking, it creates this kind of 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.800 like distance, and then that's how we get to the barn. 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:22.880 You know, then we started moving like handheld like over 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.120 is like in the very last barn scene. So the 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.560 camera lank Whige tells a story of intimacy for example, 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.560 that whole sequence of that those guys relationships. So just 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.360 you know, with a cinematographer, with a production designer, with 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.280 your costumer, you're just always looking to kind of like 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.200 let everything be telling the story, you know, let you know, 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.840 let it be telling the unsaid versus like you know, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.840 just visual story telling. Yeah, thank you for drilling in 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.720 on all of that. Uh, you know, I was curious 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.760 if working in the period realm on Bessie prepared you 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.040 for this in any way, and also, uh, you know, 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:55.520 ten million dollars is a tight budget for a movie 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.600 like this obviously, so I don't even A question I 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.559 had was did you feel like you were scaling up 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:01.960 making the movie? But maybe not because it's all the same. Yeah, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.040 this is a smaller budget, and Bessie actually yeah, So 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.000 for me, I think in terms of like the scope 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.440 of it, it felt very huge because we were telling 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:11.720 you know, like a war story kind of baked into 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.160 like a family drama, and so that piece of it 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:16.480 was different. But I think like the thing that will 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.120 best that Bestie prepared me for it is like the 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.760 choreography of it all. You know, a dance scene and 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.120 a war scene are similar, and that its people. It's 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.320 it's just people doing the same moves over and over 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.120 as everyone being very clear, and the camera is the 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.960 thing that becomes dynamic that makes it feel like chaos, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.760 But it's all very choreographed and so in that way, 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:36.319 I feel like it's the same. And then it's just 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.520 working with like extras, like a Bessie that was the 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.560 first fe I had like huge numbers of background and 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.680 even with them, I was kind of tiling them in camera. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.480 In this film, we didn't have that many more background 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.480 and so it's like how to like populate several fields 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.920 of people, you know, when you only have maybe like 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.640 thirty people. And so it's about, you know, a lesson 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.560 and you know, UM shooting to camera, like telling the 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.360 story and being able to kind of like UM be 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.520 invented of with UM the way you kind of, like 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.920 UM construct portraits and things that do many things at once. 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.640 So just a simple thing is like you know, driving 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:12.320 the car towards the camera while kids are playing in 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.719 a yard, while people are chopping in a field, and 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.160 gives a feeling of like, you know, this big expansive 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.480 life when maybe it's only like fifteen people. And so 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.360 I think Bessie prepared me for that in way because 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:23.959 we had to you know, be even that, you know, 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.600 we had to kind of scale down, you know, the 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:29.960 numbers that we could have. And so it's a way 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:31.880 that I'm used to working. It's with mud Bound. Is 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:33.760 that the same thing, how to populate a world with 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.199 you know, very little and even like that that town scene, 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.440 you know, it's like, you know, the production value starts 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.480 with location. So we fought for that town location because 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.440 just by having a street they can see down, you 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.160 can kind of communicate this idea of being behind enemy lines. 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.360 Whereas if we had done like the easy thing, which 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.120 might have been to shoot at a general store that 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.640 was right on the plantation, you don't get that feeling 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.960 of danger. And so just a small choice like that 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.200 about location then can like activate an entire sequence and 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.839 give ron Zale all this kind of like long scary march, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:04.160 you know to get home, so that we're more worried 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.920 about him on this town street than we are him, 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.520 you know, with things blowing up behind him and so 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:11.280 um and so yeah, I just really have to have 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.280 a great team and David bombar protection design if they 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.599 give him credit for that, because he was able to 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.240 kind of use what was there in the town and 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.559 supplement it and then by screechesically putting people like by 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.360 putting a wagon outside, you then like make it this 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.680 other world, you know, with no va effects, with you know, 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.040 just like we're able to practically in camera like achieve 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.040 a lot of kind of scale for not a lot. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.080 That gives me like film school flashbacks. I just remember, 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.320 like shooting a scene and there was it was like 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.400 a you know, like a restaurant scene or something. We 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.360 didn't have a lot of people to populate the scene, 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.080 so you just kind of move people to the back 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:45.600 of their chair up to the frame. It looks like 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.439 they're having with someone exactly, that's right, yeah, yeah. And 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.080 then and then sound design. So I had a great 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.040 post production team, um, like Nancy Islands and music editor um, 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.680 Damien Vullipi, all the guys at Harvard rob Um, oh 0:11:57.720 --> 0:11:59.880 my god, Tony. So all those guys are like, you know, 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:02.200 they're the same sound design team I worked with on Bessie. 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:04.320 So now that they could bring you know, all that 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.400 kind of like ability here and so they're into like 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.160 using sound non literally with which I'm interested in. And 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.480 so then the sound design becomes a layer into the 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:15.719 score from this woman named to Mark how Lea did 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.880 my score and she also did a song for Bessie 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.880 and then was in Pariah. So for me, it's about 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.480 finding kind of like artists that are interesting and bring 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.160 them back again and again because then you know, you 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:30.480 kind of keep improving on what you tried the last time. Absolutely. Um. Actually, 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.400 speaking of film school, what was your film school experience, Like, um, 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.160 so I went to n y U. It was great, 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.640 and that I had never touched a camera before, but 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.360 you know, it was like challenging that it was like 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.000 trial by fire. So my learning curve was like very steep. 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:43.600 It's like a lot of the kids had either been 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.440 to art school before, studied you know, um um cinema 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.480 studies or in some form. And for me, I was 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.760 getting it all at once. I was getting Okay, here's 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.880 the references and context and here's the technical side. Go. 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.720 You know, so I made several horrible weekend short films, 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:01.840 you know, and then you know, you get critiqued. So 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:03.640 I think the biggest thing about films because it teaches you, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.319 like how to be critiqued, you know, and it's just 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:07.640 kind of like, you know, it's kind of like a 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.240 brutal trial by fire, but it's great and that everybody 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.839 touches every piece of equipment, and you know, everyone is 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:14.520 forced to make their own film, so it's easy to 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:16.719 critique and you realize, you know versus when it see 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.160 you and your little so many you know camera like 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.160 in your living room trying to make something happen. So 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:23.880 um so it's great in that way, but it was 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.760 challenging also for that same reason. And for me it 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.560 was about like I didn't have any kind of pedigree, 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.600 your connections, and so film school, like n y U, 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.520 was the way I first was able to get access 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.800 even to just like internships. You know, it's just like 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:38.800 a way to be able to work for free. Whereas 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.079 you know, if I hadn't had that or hadn't had 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.199 that cover letter, you know, I couldn't have gone on, 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.280 you know, to get someone's coffee, you and make copies 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.000 for somebody, Like, yeah, exactly what were your inspirations going 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:51.920 into film school? What what brought you to film school 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.320 in the first place. For me, it's funny like I 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.400 had I had applied to the School of Dramatic Writing, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.680 and I applied to the film production program, and I 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.720 forgot to get into the rioting, but not into the films. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.360 I've never done film. But um, for me, it was 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:04.800 like right and it kind of drew me to it. 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.760 This idea that you could kind of like make a 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.640 story and then kind of keep ownership of it and 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:11.160 then bring it to life was something like that was 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.200 attractive to me. And I think the thing I discover 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.160 is like I really love actors and working with actors, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.480 and that's where I really get get energized. As like 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.280 writing is like a lonely sport, and then when you're directing, 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.720 you're dealing not only with all your kind of technicians, 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.480 but you're also dealing with actors. And the actors are 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.920 the ones who are vulnerable and want to play and 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:29.560 have fun. And so I get turned on by that. 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:31.880 And then editing can be like lonely too, so you 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.000 and your editors. So for me, um, the writing drew 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.160 me to it, but I think the working with actors 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.000 is a thing that like really kind of got me 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.360 um hooked. You know, I'm excited about it. Well, regarding 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.760 the writing, Um, I wanted to talk about about the 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:49.480 adaptation from mud Bound. Uh, you know, specifically structure. You know, 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.560 I never read the Hillary Jordan novel, but talk to 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.040 me about finding the right struggle finding the right structure 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.200 as well as you know, juggling multiple narrators is like 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:02.880 gotta be a tight rope walk with a screenplay, right, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.600 So like, talk to me about that the whole process. Yeah, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:07.600 So for me, so mud Bound came already in the 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.120 script form so writing virtual Williams had done the first 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.720 draft of it, and so I went back. So I 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.560 read his script, and usually I hate everything I read, 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:16.480 but the script I thought, Okay, there's some there there. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:18.320 This is interesting that prompting me to go back and 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.120 read the book. And so each character talking, that's a 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.280 conceit of the novel, you know, And so it's not 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.400 necessarily a new idea, like Isabel Wilkerson doesn't warmth them 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:28.800 with her sons, because other other writers have done it, 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.800 like in nonfiction too, So for fiction, you know, it's 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:33.840 not interest, it's not a new idea, but it's interesting 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.280 in that finding the balance, to me is the hard thing. 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.880 And then also like how to create kind of like empathy, 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.760 So you what works in novelistic form isn't harder to 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.280 translate on the screen, because how do you get the 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.760 audience to like invest in each worldview, Like how do 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.120 you get the others like invest in each character and 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.840 not just cling to one and be annoyed while while 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.880 anyone else is talking. And so that so for me, 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.320 my approach is to really focus on the Jackson family. 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.280 And I didn't want this to be like another film 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.800 where like you know, one family serving the other. And 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:05.880 like you know, in the book, a lot of the 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.680 drama centers around this piano and and so Laura plays 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.280 the piano, and it's discovered that the little girl, Lily 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.760 may can sing, and so they kind of bond around that, 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.160 and and that was you know, in the first draft. 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.640 But for me, I wanted their connection to be a 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.120 little darker, you know, in their symbiosis, you know, and 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.640 that you know, the two sons are linked via trauma, 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.240 and so that was interesting. And the two husbands both 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.480 shared the sense of disinheritance, and I found that interesting, 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.160 like one who literally has title to the land and 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.320 one you know, hap Jacks and who you could say 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.360 is this is indeed like entitled to it, you know. 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:42.840 And then the two women there are women who are 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:44.600 kind of told by other husbands what to do and 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.240 how to do it, where to spend the money, and 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.280 we're not and they're both disobedient. So that was kind 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.640 of my way in By making the Jackson's equal, then 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.720 you could have this kind of interplay between the two 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.880 families and then this dark mirror of each other versus 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.640 it being them, you know, um connecting something that was 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:04.800 purely circumstantial, you know, and so um, so my approach 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.240 was to write, you know, new material for the Jackson's, 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.399 like right, rewrite their voice over so that they weren't 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.520 just like you know, what's already happening, but that they 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.040 had a philosophy to a philosophy to them. So HAPs 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.320 home monologue, Um, what good is a deed? So that's 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:21.280 like original to the book original, you know, it wasn't 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.760 the first script, but it's important to give half context 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:25.600 with this land, Like he didn't just come with the cabin. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.439 He has his own dreams and although circumstantially they're kind 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.040 of locked into the orbit, you know, with Mcallen's, they 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.560 have their own kind of trajectory that they're aiming for. 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.280 And the same thing with like Florence. You know, for example, 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.960 a scene where you know she's going to care for 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.919 the kids. So to me, the dramatic tension of that 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.359 scene is not that it's a rainy, slippery night ride, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.720 but the tension in that scene is like the cognitive 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.520 dissonance that Florence feels about doing the very thing she 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:53.520 said you would never do. And so then suddenly like 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.440