WEBVTT - Armed Self Defense for the Trans Community 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:08.200 Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, the podcast about 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:13.280 things happening that are bad and occasionally good, but all 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.360 have to do with the fact that we're living in 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:21.680 a society whose norms are crumbling as the environment also crumbles, 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:24.479 and political violence and a bunch of other horrible things 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.680 become more normalized, trying to figure out how to not 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.559 die ideally UM and occasionally how to thrive. And to 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.680 that end, I have a guest today who has been 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.400 kind of working with the working lately on the how 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.960 not to die in the face of things getting increasingly 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.000 violent and aggressive out there. I want to welcome Jessica 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.360 Keckler to the program. Jessica, how are you doing today? 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:55.520 Doing great? So, Jessica. Um. You know, we are, as 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.120 listeners to the show and observers of just basic reality 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.040 in the outside, are aware we're kind of going under 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.640 a or living through a period of like panic and 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:10.280 concerted aggressive attack on the rights and ability to exist 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.800 of transgender people. That's um hasn't like, has never not 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:16.959 been a problem as long as there's been you know, 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.200 Western civilization, but has increasingly been a problem the last 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:25.080 year or so. Yeah, it's it's really um it's really 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.360 wild because, um, when you take estrogen, you're When I 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.880 start taking estrogen, it took like ten years off of 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:32.880 my face as far as age goes. But then in 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.240 this past year, I think it's put back on it now. 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.360 UM yeah, I mean that makes sense, Like it's it's 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.080 it's stressful as hell out there. Um. There has been 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.399 a surge in violence. UM, not just against trands people 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.680 obviously we've talked about in other episodes. UM, there's been 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.760 a surgeon violence against Asian Americans, UM, against LGBT Americans, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.480 but transgender people are much more likely than almost any 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:01.200 other group in the United States to be attacked. Uh. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.240 And that has been increasingly reality for a lot of people. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:06.680 And you are one of a number of folks in 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.920 that position who have been increasingly talking or who have 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:16.440 found yourself thinking about the necessity and value of being 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:18.320 armed in order to defend yourself from that. And I 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.240 want to talk a little bit about your background there 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.200 and kind of what, um, how you kind of came 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.160 to deciding that that was something that you wanted to 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.640 not just do personally, but advocate for other people to do. Yeah. 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:36.320 I went through well, calling libertarian spaces, it was. It 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.960 was many years, but you know, and I collected a 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:40.560 bunch of guns, and you know, I was like, oh, 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.880 that's you know cool. But then, UM, after I sort 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.639 of worked through my childhood trauma and stuff, I you know, 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:48.720 I sort of feel a lot less threatened about about things, 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:50.440 and I just sort of, you know, it just sort 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.040 of laws interest in them for a while. But then, UM, 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.919 a friend of mine, Kendall Stevens, was telling me about 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.080 a time when she was attacked in her home by 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.440 a group of transfer of and just beaten almost to death. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:07.399 And that next morning, I, um, I I have reapplied 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.880 for my Harry permit. Yeah, and this is I mean, 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:12.960 this is a story I was not aware of. I 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.480 was aware. Broadly speaking, there have been a number of attacks, 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:17.880 including a number of fatal attacks, in the last couple 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:23.160 of years, on particularly trans women. There was um the 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.680 murder of West Philadelphia woman Alicia Simmons um in November 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:32.400 of um Chante Tucker in Hunting Park in the fall 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.600 of two thousand eighteen, UH and May two thousand nineteen, 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.440 Michelle Tamika Washington was shot to death in North Philly. 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:42.280 And this is all like local to you, um, and 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.840 also Dominique Remay Fells was was murder in June if 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.400 I think, um, and yeah, if people want to look 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.640 this up, there's a couple of different articles. I'm looking 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.280 at one on Billy Pin with the title after surviving 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.760 a brutal attack, Kendall Stevens wants to help trans people 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.280 citywide And yeah, it's a it's a fucking harrowing story, 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.960 you know, after surviving a number of different attacks from 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:09.840 from like people just kind of targeting her because she's trained. 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.200 She was attacked in her home by six of her 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.640 neighbors while her god daughter, who was twelve years old. 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:21.160 Watch it's a fucking horrifying story. So you like, did 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.920 you find out about what had happened, like directly from her? 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.760 Like how does this kind of information? I was, I 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.320 was at UM there's a local trans group where we 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.159 just you know, get on zoom and talk and ye. 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.360 It was one of my first meetings, and actually I 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.320 think it was the very first, and she just told 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.920 this whole story and I was just you know, it's 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:41.520 like I always had the feeling of safety, but then 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.120 it's just I realized, like, oh, that's you know, like 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.280 being white, I'm a little safer. But it's just like 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.760 it's we're all you know, it's really yeah, it's it's 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.200 a it's a matter of like a small number of degrees. 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.680 It's not. Um. So you're you're you're trying to deal 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.200 with this and you're you're communicating. You've got this group 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.400 where you're all sort of like chatting about I'm guessing 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.680 just kind of like safety stuff, like hey, here, you know, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.480 we we should all be kind of keeping each other 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.720 informed and trying to talk about what's going on for Philly. 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.200 Right Yeah, I mean we mostly just shoot the ship 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.920 and just you know, talk things over and stuff like that. 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:21.080 But she was, um, yeah, something had come up, and 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.040 she recounted this whole story and it was just it 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.880 just really made me go like, oh my god. Yeah, 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.640 So you kind of are in this position where you 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.440 own firearms, you're you're comfortable with them, you've been using 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.480 them for a while, and number one, you get your permit, right, 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:40.279 Like that's kind of the first thing you do. And 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.039 then I'm guessing you start to think like, well, there's 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:44.960 not a lot of other people that are in this 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.480 kind of group I'm in that have this experience that 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:51.080 kind of like where the yeah right, because um, you know, 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.720 because when I would talk to people before that, they 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:56.680 would just to sort of say like, yeah, I can 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.839 see where you're coming with that. And but once the 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.360 attack started, I'm I heard a lot I've heard a 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.080 lot more people going like, yes, I need to do 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.360 that too, you know. Yeah, So I kind of want 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:09.159 to know because I mean, what we're kind of building 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.360 to is you've been you've been putting together a class 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.440 for trans folks in Philly to go to to learn 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.960 about how firearms function, the legality and legal concerns about 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:22.440 being armed, and like the steps they might need to 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.000 go to if they decide to do that themselves. Um, 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.159 how does that idea kind of come together for you 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.080 to actually like put this this class together? Okay? Well, um, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.320 I remember of the U s R. Right, the Socialist 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.920 Rifle Association, and they have classes they call Gundamentals And 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.440 it's just sort of an uproad a review. Um, just 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.599 sort of sort of every if you've never picked up 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.919 a gun before, it's it will tell you, um, you know, 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.640 it'll give you just information on you know, everything you 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.840 need to to before you use it. And UM, I 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:54.320 thought it would be a good idea to just have 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.320 a trans just a class with just my trans friends 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:01.479 and they of course open tail and it went really well, 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.400 and I planted more in the future. Yeah, um, so 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:08.800 you kind of you're going through both sort of the 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.400 basics of here's and this is kind of a thing 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.320 I think about a lot. I recently carried out a 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.040 class for I don't want to be too specific, but 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.800 at risk individuals in my local area. That was a 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:21.920 mix of and I was not the one doing to 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.480 stop the bleed portion. Primarily we have people who were 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.840 medical professionals. But it was a mix of a stop 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.600 the bleed class and like a firearms familiarization class. And 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.200 it was not from the perspective of like, hey, people 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.040 need to be strapping up, so here's how to get 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:38.720 a gun. But it was from the perspective of, hey, 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.680 there's four million firearms in the United States, whether regardless 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:44.280 of what you think about the legality, should have a 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.560 basic understanding of how they function and how to since 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.480 you're all adults, render a weapon safe, right, So we did. 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.280 We have these fake bullets snap caps, so I would 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.480 explain how an a are and a handgunna works, and 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.600 then we would have everyone take turns, kind of like 0:07:57.640 --> 0:07:59.840 we had with the stop the bleed portion. You know, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.960 you teach people to use a tourniquet, would everyone take 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.800 turns arriving to the weapon, putting the weapon in their 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.680 hands without like flagging everybody or putting their finger on 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.360 the trigger and then dropping the magazine and clearing it. 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.400 And a lot of folks the thing they expressed was 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:18.000 like as people who didn't necessarily want to be armed 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.320 themselves felt like I was, I had never got I 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.800 never knew how to like asked to have this experience 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.680 because normally, when you're in the room with a firearm, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.160 it's because like maybe you're gonna go shooting with somebody 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.119 or something. So if you're not seeking out that experience 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.120 to actually go to a range, it's kind of hard 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.640 to sit with a gun and just understand the basics 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.080 of how this thing functions and how to render it safe. 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.959 And so there were a lot of folks who particularly 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:45.960 were like it seemed to be grateful for just that 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.680 experience to kind of like reduce the mystery around it 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:53.120 and gain kind of a functional understanding of just the mechanics. Yeah, 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.880 it was. Yeah, the class was really good. I hadn't 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.040 taken it before, but it's, um, you know, it shows 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.280 like they went through like the anatomy of a ball, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.200 at the anatomy of a gun, how it works, how to, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:04.520 how to do it safely, how to you know, like 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:08.760 the four rules of gun safety, um, legal things, and 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.440 it was just it was really good course. Now, so 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.520 you take this course, you know, you're you're in communication 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.520 with these friends, you're dealing with like this constant drumbeat 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.079 of attacks. Um, you decide it's time to put together 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.080 a course for people. How do you kind of work 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.760 out what the syllabus is going to be for this? Um? Well, 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.000 if they're all they have the whole class set up already. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.760 I just sort of yeah, I had just had a 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:38.400 version just for my transfriends. Yeah, so what what in 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:40.120 terms like what did you kind of add to that 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.240 or alter to that in order to like prepare it 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.000 for this Oh? Um, not much. I just it was 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.160 just I just thought they would be more comfortable in 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.760 a class with just us. Yeah, I mean that makes sense. 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.080 And it also do you think it helped that like 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.600 this isn't because you know the Socialist Rifle Association, you're 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.319 attending that class you're kind of like attending a class 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.080 put on by an organization that has being both armed 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.640 and political kind of in its name, which it maybe 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:09.320 infers a little bit more commitment to something than the 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.120 class kind of you put together on like a political level. Yeah, 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.080 it's it's not as hardcore as as you might think 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.720 from the name. It's just it's mostly sure. They have 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:21.120 the gundamental class. They have stoppable courses kind of you know, 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.440 those kind of things, and I think they there's theiry 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:27.600 discussions too. I haven't done selling them. Yeah, and and 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.600 so you've you put this thing together. And the thing 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:31.160 that you mentioned earlier when we were talking about this 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:35.560 is kind of a discussion on like, um, like the 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.400 the particularly legal concerns that trans people seeking to arm 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.160 themselves might have in your area. And I wanted to 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.600 talk to you a little bit about that because obviously, 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.480 when we talk about gun legalities, it varies wildly from 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.960 state to state. UM, So nothing that either of us 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.360 say and this should be construed as legal advice for 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.400 what you should do in your own area. You're gonna 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.000 have to check that out yourself. But yeah, I'm interested 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.560 in what you saw is kind of worth putting in 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.160 that UM. Well, the I mean, the big addition to 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.360 bring up is that if you're not UM, if you 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.520 if you don't present as your assigned gender at birth, 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.079 they could the person who's running the check could say that, Hey, 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.040 this person is coming to me in a disguise you know, UM, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:18.079 and you could UM in future if you try to 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:19.360 get a gun in the future, that could be on 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.880 your record and people could use that it's not you. Really, 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:25.880 I know, I had never heard about that, So that's 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.680 like an actual I mean obviously, like when you file 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.160 the form four four seven to three. One of the 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.840 problems I know from just talking differends that you encounter 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.080 is that, like if you're if your your gender does 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:40.400 not match like what's on your legal documents and stuff, 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.599 you have to write what's on your legal documents on 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.679 the form because it's a government form. UM. Although the 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.160 four four seven three, which is the background check form, 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.360 does now allow you to put in non binary if 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.040 that is, like, but you still have to have it 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.520 on your legal documents. UM. And we're we're mostly used 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.040 to that for everything else. But it's just the fact 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.960 that they could specifically target you. Yeah, I was actually 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.360 unaware of that as a specific problem, like that you 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.560 could be accused of like showing up in disguise to 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:08.640 do what's called a straw purchase, you know, which is 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.760 when you illegally buy a gun for somebody else. I 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.880 didn't realize that was a Yeah, so we're there kind 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.880 of other things to like keep in mind there, like 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.360 because I'm particularly I'm sure we have a lot of 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:25.040 folks listening who are in this same headspace right now. Um, 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:29.360 because again, things aren't getting a lot less scary out there. Um. 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.120 I mean, I can say just within the last couple 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.120 of years, probably around half of the people that I 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.040 shoot with on a regular basis are trans just because 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.679 like it's the the you're the folks who are being 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:45.319 kind of most directly targeted and have the least institutional 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.400 support obviously. Yeah, and we have like people in Congress 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.280 openly calling for our executions, and it's just, yes, that's 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.640 a feeling, you know, It's like, yeah, that's something I've 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.840 ever experienced before. But it's like, yeah, you have like 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.240 naturally famous politicians just saying like, yes, we need to 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:04.640 kill every one of them, and it's like, good lord. Yeah, 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.280 And that's the thing. Like, you know, I think we 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.520 talk a lot on the show when we do talk 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.080 about being armed, and I've just talked a lot my 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.160 personal life about like sort of where what the left 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.160 should be doing in terms of like a gun culture 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.280 and like the kind of pitfalls that need to be avoided, 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:26.840 because obviously the solution to like the discrepancy of arms 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.120 in the left and the right in this country is 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.960 not to recreate what the right wing has, because what 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.680 the right wing has is like vicious and insane. Yeah, 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:40.640 it's it's bad. We don't we you don't want that. Um, 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.840 but uh and and and so obviously, like one of 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:45.520 the things that I tend to think of as as 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.439 silly is like the the folks who are and I 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.520 don't think this is a particularly large jump, but you 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.600 do get people who are kind of look at being 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:57.280 armed from like and then we're you know, um, this 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.200 is so that we can you know, be a new 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.360 red army insurgent type thing, which I think is a 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.160 less realistic use case of firearms on the left than 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.920 the police are not going to protect our community. Um, 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.640 there are a shipload of people with guns who hate us, 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.520 and you know, honestly, like one of the when I 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.880 think about, like, what are the threats that are realistic 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.120 and what are the threats when we talk obviously this 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.680 show that we're on the way, they're the wather, they're 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.880 doing the you know, you have um like Tucker Carlson 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.640 saying like, oh another week in buy mar and you know, 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:33.840 making all these things, and they they're sort of like 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.440 all these trans people. It's like someone should do something 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:42.120 wink wink, Yeah exactly. And that's the what we're on 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.360 a show right now that started out as me talking about, Hey, 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.400 I think people who are I think the threat of 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.520 massive civil conflict in the United States is higher than 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.920 people guess, and that broadly speaking is mainstream. Now there 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.120 is a strong mainstream understand like standing that some sort 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.320 of civil conflict this possible. It's still when people talk 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.560 about it primarily in the terms of like this big 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:07.920 civil war type thing, which I think is broadly speaking, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:12.400 probably pretty silly. What's not silly is the breakdown of 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.800 expectations of social mores and things like you can't show 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.280 up in a big armed group and start killing people 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.480 that you have on a list, who are are folks 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.920 that you have decided because their trans because whatever are 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.880 are your enemy. And like, one of the things that 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.840 I'm kind of concerned we're going to see at some 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.120 point in the future is a fucking mob gets spun 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.760 up and go and take out some people on their list. 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:38.960 And I'm not sure what that list is going to be, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.000 but you know, there's a couple of people who pay attention, 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.840 there's a couple of broad possibilities as to who would 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.400 be targeted. And then local law enforcements say, we're not 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.200 going to choose to do anything about this, We're not 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.240 going to invent and again this hat I'm not coming 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.200 up with this because this is like a bleak. I 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.800 know you are well aware of this, but like, we 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.000 had an abortion clinic burn down earlier this year and 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.080 I think it was Kentucky. Uh, and the police refused 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.720 to investigate it, right, Like this kind of ship already happens, 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.440 you know, Um, yeah, it was for a while I 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:11.840 was like, Okay, well they're not really going to thing, 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:13.760 and then it's like then they started coming after our 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.080 kids and just like I almost didn't survive my adolescents, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.320 so I know just how much pain those kids are in. 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.240 And yeah, and then it's like Okay, then they got 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.200 rid of rivers and way and it's like, okay, they're 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:29.920 not They're not just posturing anymore. No, they're stochastic. Final 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.080 it's like, you know, hey, someone should do something, was 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.920 bad enough, But then it's like, okay, they're really they're 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:47.440 on a tear hand. So you're you're put together this 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.720 class for folks who I'm going to guess most of 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.840 them had not number one, didn't have much experience with 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.920 weapons firearms prior to this, and probably also had not 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.800 prior to you know, the last year or two, I 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.760 thought that they would ever be some one considering purchasing armaments. 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:04.320 I mean some of them said that, you know, they 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.159 grew up, you know, in rural places and grew up 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.800 with guns and stuff. But to them, since they were kids, 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.720 so right, you were there any kind of like specific 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.080 questions that you got that you you found were interesting 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.080 or kind of like surprising, Like I'm kind of interested 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.080 in sort of what sort of things people had to ask, 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:22.640 Not in particular, I think everyone was just sort of 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.680 just trying to learn everything and just like that, Yeah, 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.639 where there is there kind of a has there been 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.760 sort of like um, any further discussions about like, well 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.240 what comes next, right like, after the sort of basic 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:40.119 class of people decided to start purchasing like firearms, step 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.280 two is like train in order to use them like functionally, right, Like, 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.240 it's not a kind of thing you can just have. Yeah, 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.320 the next step, the next step from the group of 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.560 friends that I have, Um, I'm planning to you know, 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.080 go to a range with them, and I mean we 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.399 have to sort of find what ranges are most friendly. 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.359 But yeah, so we're probably gonna do that and just 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.879 see how it goes with everyone. I mean, I know 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.520 that where I am. One thing that people will do 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.920 is you know, you'll you'll have folks who will kind 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.320 of go out and be uh kind of a little 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:16.080 guinea pigs for like, is this gun's store a friendly place? Like? Right, like, 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:17.679 is this a place we can go and buy weapons 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.720 and not and and have people like respond, well, is 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:22.880 this range of friendly place? And then kind of will 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.040 spread that to the rest of the community that like, hey, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:26.960 this is a safe place to shoot too, this is 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:28.320 a safe place to buy Do you have you guys 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.320 been kind of like setting stuff up like that or 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.760 what No, not yet, but that's that has the next 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.560 step to figure it out. Yeah, and when it when 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:43.400 it comes to like just organizing for the increasing hostility 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:49.240 that that people are facing. Um. Has it has it 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.560 kind of pushed you to do anything more formal with 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.040 like the communications groups you have in terms of like, 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.320 you know, I need I might need I'm going on 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:58.840 a walk at night, I need somebody to be able 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:00.760 to like call or something like that. I'm worried I'm 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.520 being followed, Like is there Has this been the kind 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.560 of thing that you've been like setting up more in 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.439 the way of precautions around so much because most of 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:11.600 us just live in the city and we're we're usually 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.000 pretty okay with that. Um or we'll have you know, 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:23.840 friends nearby, you know, well nothing so um formal? Yeah, UM, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.320 I mean which is yeah, I think how most people 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.480 kind of do it? Um. What do you sort of 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.760 like watching out right now? Um? What is kind of 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.440 I don't know the thing you're you like, like, do 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.280 you have anything sort of on the horizon that you're 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.360 sort of looking at as you know, if this happens, 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.280 then I'm going to expect this to happen, And like, 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.320 you know, maybe we need to do this time for 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.960 some kind of more formal plans. It's hard to say. 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.480 I'm I've just been sort of just watching all of 0:19:55.520 --> 0:20:00.360 this horrible stuff unfold. Everything happens so fast. I mean, 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:01.639 you know, like I said, I didn't think they're going 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:03.800 to get rid of Rows, so it was just I 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.439 just I don't know what's coming next. Um, I'm just 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.359 realizing it's like it's so serious. It's actually getting to 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.119 the point where I'm just sort of seeing myself just 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.359 trying to make amends with people in my past, and 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.680 it's like you just look, you just take a step 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.120 back and look at yourself, like, oh wow, it really 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.320 is getting bad that it's just subconsciously I'm just thinking 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.399 I should make peace with some of these people. That's 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:35.560 pretty bleak. Um. I I'm struggling for like something more 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.560 positive to say, um, which I'm not sure is the 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:40.480 is the kind of the right impulse, but it is 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:44.639