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Speaker 1: Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, the podcast about

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Speaker 1: things happening that are bad and occasionally good, but all

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Speaker 1: have to do with the fact that we're living in

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Speaker 1: a society whose norms are crumbling as the environment also crumbles,

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Speaker 1: and political violence and a bunch of other horrible things

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Speaker 1: become more normalized, trying to figure out how to not

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Speaker 1: die ideally UM and occasionally how to thrive. And to

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Speaker 1: that end, I have a guest today who has been

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Speaker 1: kind of working with the working lately on the how

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Speaker 1: not to die in the face of things getting increasingly

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Speaker 1: violent and aggressive out there. I want to welcome Jessica

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Speaker 1: Keckler to the program. Jessica, how are you doing today?

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Speaker 1: Doing great? So, Jessica. Um. You know, we are, as

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Speaker 1: listeners to the show and observers of just basic reality

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Speaker 1: in the outside, are aware we're kind of going under

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Speaker 1: a or living through a period of like panic and

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Speaker 1: concerted aggressive attack on the rights and ability to exist

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Speaker 1: of transgender people. That's um hasn't like, has never not

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Speaker 1: been a problem as long as there's been you know,

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Speaker 1: Western civilization, but has increasingly been a problem the last

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Speaker 1: year or so. Yeah, it's it's really um it's really

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Speaker 1: wild because, um, when you take estrogen, you're When I

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Speaker 1: start taking estrogen, it took like ten years off of

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Speaker 1: my face as far as age goes. But then in

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Speaker 1: this past year, I think it's put back on it now.

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Speaker 1: UM yeah, I mean that makes sense, Like it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's stressful as hell out there. Um. There has been

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Speaker 1: a surge in violence. UM, not just against trands people

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Speaker 1: obviously we've talked about in other episodes. UM, there's been

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Speaker 1: a surgeon violence against Asian Americans, UM, against LGBT Americans,

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Speaker 1: but transgender people are much more likely than almost any

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Speaker 1: other group in the United States to be attacked. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that has been increasingly reality for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: And you are one of a number of folks in

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Speaker 1: that position who have been increasingly talking or who have

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Speaker 1: found yourself thinking about the necessity and value of being

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Speaker 1: armed in order to defend yourself from that. And I

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Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about your background there

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Speaker 1: and kind of what, um, how you kind of came

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Speaker 1: to deciding that that was something that you wanted to

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Speaker 1: not just do personally, but advocate for other people to do. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I went through well, calling libertarian spaces, it was. It

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Speaker 1: was many years, but you know, and I collected a

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Speaker 1: bunch of guns, and you know, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's you know cool. But then, UM, after I sort

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Speaker 1: of worked through my childhood trauma and stuff, I you know,

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Speaker 1: I sort of feel a lot less threatened about about things,

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Speaker 1: and I just sort of, you know, it just sort

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Speaker 1: of laws interest in them for a while. But then, UM,

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine, Kendall Stevens, was telling me about

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Speaker 1: a time when she was attacked in her home by

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Speaker 1: a group of transfer of and just beaten almost to death.

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Speaker 1: And that next morning, I, um, I I have reapplied

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Speaker 1: for my Harry permit. Yeah, and this is I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a story I was not aware of. I

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Speaker 1: was aware. Broadly speaking, there have been a number of attacks,

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Speaker 1: including a number of fatal attacks, in the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, on particularly trans women. There was um the

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Speaker 1: murder of West Philadelphia woman Alicia Simmons um in November

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Speaker 1: of um Chante Tucker in Hunting Park in the fall

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Speaker 1: of two thousand eighteen, UH and May two thousand nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Michelle Tamika Washington was shot to death in North Philly.

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Speaker 1: And this is all like local to you, um, and

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Speaker 1: also Dominique Remay Fells was was murder in June if

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Speaker 1: I think, um, and yeah, if people want to look

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Speaker 1: this up, there's a couple of different articles. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at one on Billy Pin with the title after surviving

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Speaker 1: a brutal attack, Kendall Stevens wants to help trans people

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Speaker 1: citywide And yeah, it's a it's a fucking harrowing story,

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Speaker 1: you know, after surviving a number of different attacks from

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Speaker 1: from like people just kind of targeting her because she's trained.

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Speaker 1: She was attacked in her home by six of her

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Speaker 1: neighbors while her god daughter, who was twelve years old.

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Speaker 1: Watch it's a fucking horrifying story. So you like, did

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Speaker 1: you find out about what had happened, like directly from her?

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Speaker 1: Like how does this kind of information? I was, I

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Speaker 1: was at UM there's a local trans group where we

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Speaker 1: just you know, get on zoom and talk and ye.

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Speaker 1: It was one of my first meetings, and actually I

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Speaker 1: think it was the very first, and she just told

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Speaker 1: this whole story and I was just you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like I always had the feeling of safety, but then

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Speaker 1: it's just I realized, like, oh, that's you know, like

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Speaker 1: being white, I'm a little safer. But it's just like

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Speaker 1: it's we're all you know, it's really yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a matter of like a small number of degrees.

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Speaker 1: It's not. Um. So you're you're you're trying to deal

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Speaker 1: with this and you're you're communicating. You've got this group

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Speaker 1: where you're all sort of like chatting about I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: just kind of like safety stuff, like hey, here, you know,

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Speaker 1: we we should all be kind of keeping each other

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Speaker 1: informed and trying to talk about what's going on for Philly.

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Speaker 1: Right Yeah, I mean we mostly just shoot the ship

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Speaker 1: and just you know, talk things over and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But she was, um, yeah, something had come up, and

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Speaker 1: she recounted this whole story and it was just it

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Speaker 1: just really made me go like, oh my god. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So you kind of are in this position where you

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Speaker 1: own firearms, you're you're comfortable with them, you've been using

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Speaker 1: them for a while, and number one, you get your permit, right,

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Speaker 1: Like that's kind of the first thing you do. And

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Speaker 1: then I'm guessing you start to think like, well, there's

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Speaker 1: not a lot of other people that are in this

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Speaker 1: kind of group I'm in that have this experience that

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Speaker 1: kind of like where the yeah right, because um, you know,

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Speaker 1: because when I would talk to people before that, they

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Speaker 1: would just to sort of say like, yeah, I can

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Speaker 1: see where you're coming with that. And but once the

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Speaker 1: attack started, I'm I heard a lot I've heard a

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Speaker 1: lot more people going like, yes, I need to do

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Speaker 1: that too, you know. Yeah, So I kind of want

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Speaker 1: to know because I mean, what we're kind of building

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Speaker 1: to is you've been you've been putting together a class

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Speaker 1: for trans folks in Philly to go to to learn

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Speaker 1: about how firearms function, the legality and legal concerns about

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Speaker 1: being armed, and like the steps they might need to

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Speaker 1: go to if they decide to do that themselves. Um,

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Speaker 1: how does that idea kind of come together for you

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Speaker 1: to actually like put this this class together? Okay? Well, um,

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Speaker 1: I remember of the U s R. Right, the Socialist

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Speaker 1: Rifle Association, and they have classes they call Gundamentals And

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Speaker 1: it's just sort of an uproad a review. Um, just

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Speaker 1: sort of sort of every if you've never picked up

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Speaker 1: a gun before, it's it will tell you, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: it'll give you just information on you know, everything you

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Speaker 1: need to to before you use it. And UM, I

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Speaker 1: thought it would be a good idea to just have

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Speaker 1: a trans just a class with just my trans friends

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Speaker 1: and they of course open tail and it went really well,

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Speaker 1: and I planted more in the future. Yeah, um, so

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Speaker 1: you kind of you're going through both sort of the

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Speaker 1: basics of here's and this is kind of a thing

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Speaker 1: I think about a lot. I recently carried out a

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Speaker 1: class for I don't want to be too specific, but

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Speaker 1: at risk individuals in my local area. That was a

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Speaker 1: mix of and I was not the one doing to

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Speaker 1: stop the bleed portion. Primarily we have people who were

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Speaker 1: medical professionals. But it was a mix of a stop

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Speaker 1: the bleed class and like a firearms familiarization class. And

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Speaker 1: it was not from the perspective of like, hey, people

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Speaker 1: need to be strapping up, so here's how to get

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Speaker 1: a gun. But it was from the perspective of, hey,

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Speaker 1: there's four million firearms in the United States, whether regardless

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Speaker 1: of what you think about the legality, should have a

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Speaker 1: basic understanding of how they function and how to since

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Speaker 1: you're all adults, render a weapon safe, right, So we did.

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Speaker 1: We have these fake bullets snap caps, so I would

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Speaker 1: explain how an a are and a handgunna works, and

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Speaker 1: then we would have everyone take turns, kind of like

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Speaker 1: we had with the stop the bleed portion. You know,

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Speaker 1: you teach people to use a tourniquet, would everyone take

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Speaker 1: turns arriving to the weapon, putting the weapon in their

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Speaker 1: hands without like flagging everybody or putting their finger on

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Speaker 1: the trigger and then dropping the magazine and clearing it.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of folks the thing they expressed was

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Speaker 1: like as people who didn't necessarily want to be armed

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Speaker 1: themselves felt like I was, I had never got I

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Speaker 1: never knew how to like asked to have this experience

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Speaker 1: because normally, when you're in the room with a firearm,

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Speaker 1: it's because like maybe you're gonna go shooting with somebody

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Speaker 1: or something. So if you're not seeking out that experience

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Speaker 1: to actually go to a range, it's kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to sit with a gun and just understand the basics

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Speaker 1: of how this thing functions and how to render it safe.

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Speaker 1: And so there were a lot of folks who particularly

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Speaker 1: were like it seemed to be grateful for just that

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Speaker 1: experience to kind of like reduce the mystery around it

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Speaker 1: and gain kind of a functional understanding of just the mechanics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was. Yeah, the class was really good. I hadn't

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Speaker 1: taken it before, but it's, um, you know, it shows

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Speaker 1: like they went through like the anatomy of a ball,

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Speaker 1: at the anatomy of a gun, how it works, how to,

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Speaker 1: how to do it safely, how to you know, like

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Speaker 1: the four rules of gun safety, um, legal things, and

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Speaker 1: it was just it was really good course. Now, so

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Speaker 1: you take this course, you know, you're you're in communication

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Speaker 1: with these friends, you're dealing with like this constant drumbeat

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Speaker 1: of attacks. Um, you decide it's time to put together

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Speaker 1: a course for people. How do you kind of work

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Speaker 1: out what the syllabus is going to be for this? Um? Well,

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Speaker 1: if they're all they have the whole class set up already.

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Speaker 1: I just sort of yeah, I had just had a

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Speaker 1: version just for my transfriends. Yeah, so what what in

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Speaker 1: terms like what did you kind of add to that

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Speaker 1: or alter to that in order to like prepare it

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Speaker 1: for this Oh? Um, not much. I just it was

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Speaker 1: just I just thought they would be more comfortable in

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Speaker 1: a class with just us. Yeah, I mean that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And it also do you think it helped that like

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Speaker 1: this isn't because you know the Socialist Rifle Association, you're

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Speaker 1: attending that class you're kind of like attending a class

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Speaker 1: put on by an organization that has being both armed

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Speaker 1: and political kind of in its name, which it maybe

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Speaker 1: infers a little bit more commitment to something than the

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Speaker 1: class kind of you put together on like a political level. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not as hardcore as as you might think

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Speaker 1: from the name. It's just it's mostly sure. They have

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Speaker 1: the gundamental class. They have stoppable courses kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: those kind of things, and I think they there's theiry

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Speaker 1: discussions too. I haven't done selling them. Yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: so you've you put this thing together. And the thing

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned earlier when we were talking about this

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Speaker 1: is kind of a discussion on like, um, like the

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Speaker 1: the particularly legal concerns that trans people seeking to arm

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Speaker 1: themselves might have in your area. And I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk to you a little bit about that because obviously,

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Speaker 1: when we talk about gun legalities, it varies wildly from

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Speaker 1: state to state. UM, So nothing that either of us

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Speaker 1: say and this should be construed as legal advice for

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Speaker 1: what you should do in your own area. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to check that out yourself. But yeah, I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in what you saw is kind of worth putting in

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Speaker 1: that UM. Well, the I mean, the big addition to

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Speaker 1: bring up is that if you're not UM, if you

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Speaker 1: if you don't present as your assigned gender at birth,

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Speaker 1: they could the person who's running the check could say that, Hey,

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Speaker 1: this person is coming to me in a disguise you know, UM,

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Speaker 1: and you could UM in future if you try to

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Speaker 1: get a gun in the future, that could be on

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Speaker 1: your record and people could use that it's not you. Really,

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Speaker 1: I know, I had never heard about that, So that's

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Speaker 1: like an actual I mean obviously, like when you file

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Speaker 1: the form four four seven to three. One of the

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Speaker 1: problems I know from just talking differends that you encounter

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Speaker 1: is that, like if you're if your your gender does

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Speaker 1: not match like what's on your legal documents and stuff,

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Speaker 1: you have to write what's on your legal documents on

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Speaker 1: the form because it's a government form. UM. Although the

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Speaker 1: four four seven three, which is the background check form,

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Speaker 1: does now allow you to put in non binary if

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Speaker 1: that is, like, but you still have to have it

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Speaker 1: on your legal documents. UM. And we're we're mostly used

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Speaker 1: to that for everything else. But it's just the fact

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Speaker 1: that they could specifically target you. Yeah, I was actually

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Speaker 1: unaware of that as a specific problem, like that you

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Speaker 1: could be accused of like showing up in disguise to

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Speaker 1: do what's called a straw purchase, you know, which is

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Speaker 1: when you illegally buy a gun for somebody else. I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize that was a Yeah, so we're there kind

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Speaker 1: of other things to like keep in mind there, like

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Speaker 1: because I'm particularly I'm sure we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks listening who are in this same headspace right now. Um,

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Speaker 1: because again, things aren't getting a lot less scary out there. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can say just within the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, probably around half of the people that I

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Speaker 1: shoot with on a regular basis are trans just because

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Speaker 1: like it's the the you're the folks who are being

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Speaker 1: kind of most directly targeted and have the least institutional

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Speaker 1: support obviously. Yeah, and we have like people in Congress

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Speaker 1: openly calling for our executions, and it's just, yes, that's

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Speaker 1: a feeling, you know, It's like, yeah, that's something I've

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Speaker 1: ever experienced before. But it's like, yeah, you have like

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Speaker 1: naturally famous politicians just saying like, yes, we need to

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Speaker 1: kill every one of them, and it's like, good lord. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing. Like, you know, I think we

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Speaker 1: talk a lot on the show when we do talk

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Speaker 1: about being armed, and I've just talked a lot my

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Speaker 1: personal life about like sort of where what the left

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Speaker 1: should be doing in terms of like a gun culture

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Speaker 1: and like the kind of pitfalls that need to be avoided,

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Speaker 1: because obviously the solution to like the discrepancy of arms

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Speaker 1: in the left and the right in this country is

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Speaker 1: not to recreate what the right wing has, because what

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Speaker 1: the right wing has is like vicious and insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's bad. We don't we you don't want that. Um,

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Speaker 1: but uh and and and so obviously, like one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I tend to think of as as

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Speaker 1: silly is like the the folks who are and I

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Speaker 1: don't think this is a particularly large jump, but you

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Speaker 1: do get people who are kind of look at being

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Speaker 1: armed from like and then we're you know, um, this

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Speaker 1: is so that we can you know, be a new

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Speaker 1: red army insurgent type thing, which I think is a

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Speaker 1: less realistic use case of firearms on the left than

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Speaker 1: the police are not going to protect our community. Um,

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Speaker 1: there are a shipload of people with guns who hate us,

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Speaker 1: and you know, honestly, like one of the when I

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Speaker 1: think about, like, what are the threats that are realistic

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Speaker 1: and what are the threats when we talk obviously this

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Speaker 1: show that we're on the way, they're the wather, they're

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Speaker 1: doing the you know, you have um like Tucker Carlson

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Speaker 1: saying like, oh another week in buy mar and you know,

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Speaker 1: making all these things, and they they're sort of like

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Speaker 1: all these trans people. It's like someone should do something

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Speaker 1: wink wink, Yeah exactly. And that's the what we're on

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Speaker 1: a show right now that started out as me talking about, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I think people who are I think the threat of

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Speaker 1: massive civil conflict in the United States is higher than

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Speaker 1: people guess, and that broadly speaking is mainstream. Now there

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Speaker 1: is a strong mainstream understand like standing that some sort

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Speaker 1: of civil conflict this possible. It's still when people talk

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Speaker 1: about it primarily in the terms of like this big

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Speaker 1: civil war type thing, which I think is broadly speaking,

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Speaker 1: probably pretty silly. What's not silly is the breakdown of

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Speaker 1: expectations of social mores and things like you can't show

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Speaker 1: up in a big armed group and start killing people

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Speaker 1: that you have on a list, who are are folks

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Speaker 1: that you have decided because their trans because whatever are

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Speaker 1: are your enemy. And like, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of concerned we're going to see at some

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Speaker 1: point in the future is a fucking mob gets spun

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Speaker 1: up and go and take out some people on their list.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure what that list is going to be,

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Speaker 1: but you know, there's a couple of people who pay attention,

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of broad possibilities as to who would

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Speaker 1: be targeted. And then local law enforcements say, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to choose to do anything about this, We're not

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Speaker 1: going to invent and again this hat I'm not coming

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Speaker 1: up with this because this is like a bleak. I

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Speaker 1: know you are well aware of this, but like, we

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Speaker 1: had an abortion clinic burn down earlier this year and

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Speaker 1: I think it was Kentucky. Uh, and the police refused

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Speaker 1: to investigate it, right, Like this kind of ship already happens,

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Speaker 1: you know, Um, yeah, it was for a while I

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, well they're not really going to thing,

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Speaker 1: and then it's like then they started coming after our

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Speaker 1: kids and just like I almost didn't survive my adolescents,

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Speaker 1: so I know just how much pain those kids are in.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, and then it's like Okay, then they got

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Speaker 1: rid of rivers and way and it's like, okay, they're

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Speaker 1: not They're not just posturing anymore. No, they're stochastic. Final

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, hey, someone should do something, was

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Speaker 1: bad enough, But then it's like, okay, they're really they're

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Speaker 1: on a tear hand. So you're you're put together this

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Speaker 1: class for folks who I'm going to guess most of

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Speaker 1: them had not number one, didn't have much experience with

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Speaker 1: weapons firearms prior to this, and probably also had not

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Speaker 1: prior to you know, the last year or two, I

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Speaker 1: thought that they would ever be some one considering purchasing armaments.

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Speaker 1: I mean some of them said that, you know, they

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Speaker 1: grew up, you know, in rural places and grew up

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Speaker 1: with guns and stuff. But to them, since they were kids,

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Speaker 1: so right, you were there any kind of like specific

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Speaker 1: questions that you got that you you found were interesting

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Speaker 1: or kind of like surprising, Like I'm kind of interested

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Speaker 1: in sort of what sort of things people had to ask,

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Speaker 1: Not in particular, I think everyone was just sort of

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Speaker 1: just trying to learn everything and just like that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where there is there kind of a has there been

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Speaker 1: sort of like um, any further discussions about like, well

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Speaker 1: what comes next, right like, after the sort of basic

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Speaker 1: class of people decided to start purchasing like firearms, step

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Speaker 1: two is like train in order to use them like functionally, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not a kind of thing you can just have. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the next step, the next step from the group of

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Speaker 1: friends that I have, Um, I'm planning to you know,

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Speaker 1: go to a range with them, and I mean we

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Speaker 1: have to sort of find what ranges are most friendly.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so we're probably gonna do that and just

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Speaker 1: see how it goes with everyone. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: that where I am. One thing that people will do

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Speaker 1: is you know, you'll you'll have folks who will kind

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Speaker 1: of go out and be uh kind of a little

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Speaker 1: guinea pigs for like, is this gun's store a friendly place? Like? Right, like,

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Speaker 1: is this a place we can go and buy weapons

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Speaker 1: and not and and have people like respond, well, is

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Speaker 1: this range of friendly place? And then kind of will

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Speaker 1: spread that to the rest of the community that like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is a safe place to shoot too, this is

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Speaker 1: a safe place to buy Do you have you guys

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Speaker 1: been kind of like setting stuff up like that or

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Speaker 1: what No, not yet, but that's that has the next

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Speaker 1: step to figure it out. Yeah, and when it when

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Speaker 1: it comes to like just organizing for the increasing hostility

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Speaker 1: that that people are facing. Um. Has it has it

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Speaker 1: kind of pushed you to do anything more formal with

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Speaker 1: like the communications groups you have in terms of like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I need I might need I'm going on

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Speaker 1: a walk at night, I need somebody to be able

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Speaker 1: to like call or something like that. I'm worried I'm

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Speaker 1: being followed, Like is there Has this been the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that you've been like setting up more in

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Speaker 1: the way of precautions around so much because most of

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Speaker 1: us just live in the city and we're we're usually

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Speaker 1: pretty okay with that. Um or we'll have you know,

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Speaker 1: friends nearby, you know, well nothing so um formal? Yeah, UM,

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Speaker 1: I mean which is yeah, I think how most people

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Speaker 1: kind of do it? Um. What do you sort of

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Speaker 1: like watching out right now? Um? What is kind of

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Speaker 1: I don't know the thing you're you like, like, do

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Speaker 1: you have anything sort of on the horizon that you're

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Speaker 1: sort of looking at as you know, if this happens,

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Speaker 1: then I'm going to expect this to happen, And like,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe we need to do this time for

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Speaker 1: some kind of more formal plans. It's hard to say.

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Speaker 1: I'm I've just been sort of just watching all of

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Speaker 1: this horrible stuff unfold. Everything happens so fast. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I said, I didn't think they're going

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Speaker 1: to get rid of Rows, so it was just I

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Speaker 1: just I don't know what's coming next. Um, I'm just

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Speaker 1: realizing it's like it's so serious. It's actually getting to

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Speaker 1: the point where I'm just sort of seeing myself just

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Speaker 1: trying to make amends with people in my past, and

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Speaker 1: it's like you just look, you just take a step

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Speaker 1: back and look at yourself, like, oh wow, it really

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Speaker 1: is getting bad that it's just subconsciously I'm just thinking

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Speaker 1: I should make peace with some of these people. That's

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Speaker 1: pretty bleak. Um. I I'm struggling for like something more

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Speaker 1: positive to say, um, which I'm not sure is the

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Speaker 1: is the kind of the right impulse, but it is

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Speaker 1: sort of like we're all kind of like grappling for

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Speaker 1: because one of the problems is that the scale of

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Speaker 1: the threat I think is or the reality of the

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Speaker 1: threat is very clear to people, right, whether you're kind

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Speaker 1: of a centrist dim and you just see like oh ship,

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Speaker 1: there's actually like a lot of like militia type folks

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Speaker 1: with guns talking about a civil war and they almost

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Speaker 1: took over Congress. This is a real threat. Or whether

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Speaker 1: you're you know, a transperson or um, you know, an

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Speaker 1: indigenous person or a migrant or something somebody who's you know,

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Speaker 1: here in the country in a less than legal fashion

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Speaker 1: and you're stay seeing like, oh, they're specific threats against

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Speaker 1: groups people like me, and they're being more organized and

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Speaker 1: more at actually being carried out. Um, the reality of

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Speaker 1: the threat is I think clear in differing degrees to everybody.

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Speaker 1: What's not clear is the the scope in the shape

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Speaker 1: of it. Right, So we know there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: like armed right wing assholes talking about violent ship. We

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Speaker 1: don't know is are they ever going to get their

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Speaker 1: ship together right, like enough to do something like unto

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Speaker 1: what extent and in what areas right on that is?

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, it's like the enemy is

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Speaker 1: strong and weak at the same time, of course, but

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Speaker 1: I think with us, they're really they really don't expect

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Speaker 1: any resistance. And I think that if you know, if

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Speaker 1: they start meeting resistance or seeing us with that like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we have same rightful to you do you know? Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: and I think that my you know, hold them off

429
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: a little bit at least. I think that's generally like

430
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 1: a if you're kind of like, I don't know, uh,

431
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: thinking about it from that, from the perspective of like

432
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 1: and kind of a soulless, like, uh, top down view

433
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: of this is just a strategic thing, like what are

434
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: the what are the best ways to oppose this kind

435
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: of like right wing and surgeent force. Well, like, obviously

436
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: one of them is not to like hand them ground, right,

437
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: like don't don't don't don't do the thing that you

438
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: see a lot of people in the left doing, which is, oh,

439
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: they're coming for you know, trans people. Well that's not

440
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: you know, you there's been a lot of like very

441
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 1: ugly talk on certain chunks of liberals and left of

442
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: like well, you know, if we defend these people, that's

443
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: going to be bad for us in an electoral sense,

444
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: you know, and like this is something that gets you

445
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: votes in small exact exactly, Hillary Clinton just fucking came

446
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: out and said this, right, and it's um, I I

447
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 1: finel like I think historically as a bad strategy, you know,

448
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: if you're just looking at what happened in history, obviously,

449
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,959
Speaker 1: I think it's immoral. Um. And I also yeah, I

450
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: think that you are right in that the only reason

451
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: that they're this scary right now is because for the

452
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: better part of twenty years a little less than that,

453
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: but this really started to accelerate after Obama got elected.

454
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: Every time the far right has like pushed for something

455
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: and like made a stink or started making threats, people

456
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 1: have backed off right and even outside of you know,

457
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: threats specific communities, they were ship like the Mayac report,

458
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: which is in like the mid of Obama's term, the

459
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: Homeland Security put out a report warning about the growth

460
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: of the domestic militia movement, and they like made a

461
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 1: big they flipped out about it, and we're like, look,

462
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: they're saying that if you have a Gadsden flag, you're

463
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: a domestic terrorist and all this stuff, and the Obama

464
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: backed off and fired all of the people in in

465
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: the federal government who were like watching this ship Um.

466
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 1: Which we can talk about the degree to which it's

467
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: ever reasonable to hope that the Feds are going to

468
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: do anything about this, but it's it's an example of this.

469
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: You get scared that opposing these people is going to

470
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: be bad for you. Politically, and so you make a

471
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: craven political decision to seed ground to them and then

472
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: they get more dangerous, right the Democrats have just been

473
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: doing lately, I mean least several decades. Really, it's such

474
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: like a mine field to talk about being armed and

475
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: being responsibly in the context of twenty one century United States,

476
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 1: because there's so much to juggle, including the fact that

477
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: we have basically nearly weekly massacres and stuff being committed

478
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: by people who go and pick up a gun from

479
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: you know, a sporting good store or whatever. Um. But fascists, yeah,

480
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: and are almost all fascists with the history of violence

481
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 1: towards women. Um but it it It is like I

482
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: think when we are talking about what it is, the

483
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: actual importance on both an individual level of being the

484
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: importance on an individual level of people who are in

485
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: threatened communities being armed is that they cannot trust the

486
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: police or the state to take any actions to protect them.

487
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: And we see that because they get thrown under the

488
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: fucking bus every time somebody comes after her attack that

489
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: the place just sort of dismissed her. They just sort

490
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: of like, oh, you know, it was just you know,

491
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: they like the stonder to her just like just complete

492
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, dis interest, and yeah, and obviously like this

493
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: is this is the thing you don't have to There's

494
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of numerous other stories of that. Um. And

495
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: then on the other end of things, you have, like

496
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: most of these people, one of the things we have

497
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 1: in our corner is like scary as the urgent, right

498
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: is as most of them are fucking cowards, and when

499
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: they get opposed, when somebody shows up and throws down

500
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 1: usually they fucking It's one thing if it's like a

501
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: street fight, right, because people don't tend to get killed

502
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: in street fights, and you can make a lot of

503
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: money filming videos of it. When fucking when when people

504
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: start pulling straps, you know, like it gets really different,

505
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: really fucking quickly. Um. And in general, we've seen in

506
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: Portland there have been a couple of these folks shot

507
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: in defensive shootings and it's part of why that's kind

508
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: of stuff doesn't happen as much as it was in

509
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: two thou eighteen. Um, you saw that ship happen in

510
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: Denver and it had an effect on the intensity of

511
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: of rallies there. When these people are it would be

512
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: irresponsible to say that it's like good when this happens,

513
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: but when they suffer consequences for trying to hurt people,

514
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: it scares some of them classically. Yeah, if you stand

515
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: up to them, they'll really Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

516
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: I this is just kind of turned into us sort

517
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: of talking about the ethics of community self defense. But

518
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: I think it's something I think it's important to talk about.

519
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: And I think it's also important to kind of reclaim

520
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: from this kind of masturbatory fantasy of becoming a minuteman

521
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: or whatever. And also this masturbatory fantasy of like this

522
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: is something this is a thing I do as like

523
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 1: part of my identity um as opposed to like this

524
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: is a thing that I do in order to defend

525
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: my ability to continue to be who I am. Right,

526
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not a radical. I just want to

527
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: be alive, you know, And if i'm not, if I

528
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: have to de transition, I will not want to be alive.

529
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: And that's that. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, Well, did you

530
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: have anything else you wanted to get into where we're

531
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: talking to digestic of all? Right, Well, do you have

532
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: anything you wanted to plug any place you wanted to

533
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: kind of direct people rum because uh, if someone wanted

534
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: to at home, wanted to uh to do their own thing,

535
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: the s R would probably be very receptive. I'm sure

536
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: there's other organizations. Um yeah, there's John Brown, gun clubs

537
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: and stuff and other organizations that don't have names. And

538
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: on a personal level, I well, I I make bondage

539
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: collars and paddles. It's called bondage robot. It's any store.

540
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: It's a bondage hype and robot dot com. Excellent do

541
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: do Yeah, um so bondage robot dot com. Um check

542
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: that out. You're also on Twitter. Do you want to

543
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: direct people? It's that's where I Yeah, Jessica Lashnikoff just

544
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: figured out you'll say it all right. That is gonna

545
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: be our episode for the day. Everybody, Uh, stay safe

546
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: and um, you know, think about the ethics of community

547
00:28:52,960 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: self defense. It's important, Okay for Offen years production of

548
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: school Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

549
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone Media dot com, or check

550
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

551
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

552
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: for It could happen here, updated monthly at cool Zone

553
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: Media dot com. Slash sources. Thanks for listening,