1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones. 13 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hey Kate, how are you. 14 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: I'm doing well except for the damn story. I mean, 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: I know that we do true crime stories. We talk 16 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: about them every week. But this is a hard one. 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: A lot of dead women, brutal, brutal, brutal, the servant 18 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: Girl Annihilator story. I've been thinking about it all week. 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: I don't know about you. 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: Well, I've been thinking about it, you know. But this 21 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: is my world, you know. Welcome to my world, the 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: dark world. Paul, Yes, it can be. 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: Well, let's recap for those of you who have forgotten 24 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: over the past week. We have now four murders in Austin, 25 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: Texas in the late eighteen hundred, Starting in December of 26 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty four, a black cook named Molly Smith was 27 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted it looks like, and murdered with an axe 28 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: and stabbed with a sharp object. We have Eliza Shelley 29 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: about five months after that, who was a black cook 30 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: in her thirties. She was struck with an axe, stabbed 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: with a sharp object, which I think they're now going 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: to determine is going to be something like an ice pick. 33 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: Then Irene Cross just a few weeks later, who was 34 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: a black domestic worker attacked with a knife. Then Mary Raymie, 35 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: the eleven year old girl who was the daughter of 36 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: a black cook, who was knocked over the head. And 37 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: then Mary Raymie was taken out and just brutalized and 38 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: stepped through the ear with a sharp object. So that's 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: where we are four dead, one young girl, three women 40 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: who are dead, and then a mother who is grieving 41 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: and recovering very slowly, and a black community in Austin, 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: Texas that is shook to a point where they are 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: all trying to kind of protect each other and sleep 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: in areas where they feel a little bit safer than 45 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: in their tiny little cabins at the back of the 46 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: property of the people who have employed them. 47 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And I think I just want to 48 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: point out that, you know, we're talking the mid eighteen eighties, 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: the idea of the serial predator being a new phenomena, 50 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: not It's been going on forever. 51 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: Yeap. They called a multiple murderers back then. When Edward Ruloff, 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 1: you know, who is the subject of a book and 53 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: my first season of tenfold More Wicked, I remember somebody 54 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: in the media telling me that they were gonna print 55 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: serial killer and I said, no, he was a multiple murderer. 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: That's what they called them back then. But it was 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: still disbelief. But it was clear even to the police 58 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty four eighteen eighty five, that these were 59 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: all committed by the same person. So the last one 60 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: where we left off was Mary Raymie, which was August 61 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: thirtieth of eighteen eighty five. A month or so goes by. 62 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: Now we're September twenty eighth, eighteen eighty five, and now 63 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: we're back to a man being present a boyfriend. They 64 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: are near the university of Texas on Guadaloupe Street. It 65 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: is a woman named Gracie Vance and her boyfriend, who 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: is a man named Orange Washington, and they are asleep 67 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: in the back cabin of a property owned by Gracie's boss, 68 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: who was the publisher of the Texas Court Reporter legal 69 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: newspaper at the time. Gracey and Orange were not alone. 70 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: They were in bed and they had two people sleeping 71 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: on the floor. This were two women named Lucinda Body 72 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: and Patsy Gibson. They were also domestic workers, but for 73 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: a different family. So Lucinda and Patsy were staying with 74 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: the couple because they were terrified, so they were grouping 75 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: up to try to protect one another. So the boss, 76 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: William Dunham, says he heard odd noises through the night 77 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: which he thought were Orange assaulting his girlfriend Gracie. The 78 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: boss said it sounded like Gracie was being either whipped 79 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: or slapped, and the boss williams says this happened between 80 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: the two of them, between Gracy and Orange, so he 81 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: didn't do anything, but he heard noises of violence around 82 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: one in the morning. Yet again, middle of the night, 83 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: the boss William hears somebody scream it's a woman. He 84 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: finally gets up, He gets a gun. He rushes outside 85 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: and he saw one of the overnight guests, one of 86 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: the women, Lucinda, struggling with a man in the yard. 87 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: She was bleeding from the head. She appeared confused. She screams, 88 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: mister Dunham, were all dead. The attacker got away because 89 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: William could not get a shot off, and the attacker 90 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: left behind a horse which was hitched to a nearby tree. 91 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: Inside the cabin, the other guest, Patsy, was lying on 92 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: her side. She was barely alive. She was bleeding from 93 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: a severe head wound. The boyfriend Orange was dead. He 94 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: was lying face down on the floor in the space 95 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: between his bed and an open window. His head had 96 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: been nearly sliced in half with an axe, which was 97 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: found in the bedroom. Also left behind. Cinda and Patsy 98 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: had been beaten with what they think was the back 99 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: blunt part of the axe. Gracie is dead too. She 100 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: had been dragged seventy five yards from her cabin over 101 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: a four foot tall fence into a horse pasture. She 102 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: had been sexually assaulted, and investigators say he had violently 103 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: beaten her with a brick until her head was described 104 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: as jelly, completely unrecognizable at this point. So this is awful. 105 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: Everybody's been attacked in this cabin. 106 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, to me, it's obvious the offender went 107 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: in and you have the four adults that are asleep, 108 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: and in quick succession incapacitates or attempts to incapacitate three 109 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,559 Speaker 2: of them. Now, you don't indicate that there's any signs 110 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: of a struggle between Orange and this offender. So I'm 111 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: assuming Orange, being the male, is the first one that 112 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: is likely struck with the axe right away, and then 113 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: Lucinda and Patsy are then also struck right away. Gracie 114 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: is the chosen one. Whether or not he's evaluating on 115 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: scene who his intended victim is going to be that 116 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 2: he sexually assaults, or he knew going into this location 117 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: who he wanted to have as a victim right now, 118 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: we don't know. But he goes in and dispatches just 119 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: three adults that he has no intention of having any 120 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: further interactions with, and then removes Gracie because she is 121 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: the chosen one. 122 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: And just so you know, she's twenty years old Gracie 123 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: and Orange is twenty five. I know, we talk about 124 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: old man's strength, but this is a young man. So 125 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: I think you're right. There's a point that he's found 126 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: face down in between the bed and an open window. 127 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: I'm not sure the claim is that the man entered 128 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: through the window, but the window would have been open, 129 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: probably because you know, it's September thirtieth and it's really 130 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: hot still in Austin. 131 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: In all likelihood, Orange may never have even been aware 132 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: of what happened. He's asleep, is hitting the head with 133 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: the axe. Whether or not he even had any type 134 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: of mobility after that assault, who knows. You know, it's 135 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: possible Orange, it's just on the bed, hit on the head. 136 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: A fender dispatches Lucinda and Patsy and then drags Gracie out, 137 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: and maybe Orange gets up, stumbles and collapses, or the 138 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 2: offender pulls Orange off the bed hits him in the head. 139 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: Because now you have a solid surface of the floor 140 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: versus a kind of the cushioning of the bed that 141 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: could potentially minimize the wounding capacity of the axe. 142 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: Now, talk to me about the distance that Gracie's body 143 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: was discovered, dragged about seventy five yards from her cabin, 144 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: over a four foot tall fence and into an adjoining 145 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: horse pasture. Is that a long way? I mean he's 146 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: he's really trying to get out of the scene. 147 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, he most certainly is trying to put distance 148 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: from the cabin and where he can spend time with Gracy. 149 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: And again, is this because he's not sure that the 150 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: three adults that he has struck are truly incapacitated. Is 151 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: he aware of let's say, the owners of the property 152 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 2: and that they may be able to hear something if 153 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: he's spending time with Gracy and he needs to get 154 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: further distance away from the property. You know, who knows, 155 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: but it's significant. I don't know how big Gracy is now. 156 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: When they say the term dragged, you know, oftentimes you know, 157 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: victims will be forced to walk, you know, you know. 158 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: So that's where it's like, Well, is he truly dragging 159 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: Gracy and carrying her up over this four foot fence 160 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: or is he forcing her at knife point or something 161 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: else to get to this other location. If he is 162 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: dragging and then taking her up over the fence, this 163 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: tells me he's likely a very robust male. He's got 164 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: some strength, he's got some stamina, in order to move 165 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: this adult woman that distance and up over an obstacle. 166 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you about the timeline. So William 167 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: Dunn and the boss comes out because he hears Lucinda screaming. 168 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: She is struggling with a strange man in the yard. 169 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: She's bleeding from the head and she appears confused. And 170 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: this is when she says, mister Dunham, we are all 171 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: dead now. Patsy's barely alive. She survives, Lucinda survives, Orange 172 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: is dead. Then you've got Gracie who's dead in the field. 173 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: Isn't this for this to be the way Lucinda's describing it, 174 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: doesn't it mean that he has to hurt these people, 175 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: immobilize them, grab Gracie, sexually assault her and kill her 176 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: in the field, and go back for Lucinda in order 177 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: for him to then get away because he can't be 178 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: chased away by this man with the gun, and then 179 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: return and grab Gracy. Then doesn't Gracie have to go 180 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: first and then he comes back. No? 181 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: I think the the logical sequences is he he goes 182 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: in while these four are asleep, He dispatches the three adults, 183 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 2: separates Gracey, and then on his way back, and there's 184 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 2: there's the unknown here. It's possible that he's he's heading 185 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: back to where his horse is hitched in order to escape, 186 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: and maybe Lucinda has come to and has now come 187 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: out and is face to face with him, and that's 188 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: when the owner comes out and sees them struggling, or 189 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 2: I mean the other the other possibility, which I think 190 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: is less likely, as he goes back into the cabin 191 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: and is now trying to pull Lucinda, you know, to 192 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: where he has Gracey and she's putting up a struggle. 193 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: I think the first scenario is more likely, as he's 194 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: he is now trying to escape and Lucinda just happened 195 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 2: to stumble out there and comes face to face with him, 196 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: and that's when the owner comes out and witnesses that interaction. 197 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: Now, what sounds like happened is that you know, he 198 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: is using the sharp end of the axe on some 199 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: people and disabling other people with the blunt end of 200 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: the axe. The fact that he hasn't done some of 201 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: the other horrible things, like the kind of impaling thing 202 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: with what they might be say as an iron rod. 203 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: Does that mean he doesn't have time? Is that what's happening, 204 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: or this just seems like a blitz attack until he 205 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: gets Gracie out into the field. 206 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: Now it is a blitz attack. And it's hard to 207 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: say whether he is purposely using the sharp edge of 208 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: the axe in select instances, or is he as he's 209 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: just swinging the axe, you know, he's losing track of 210 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 2: you know, the orientation of the head, you know, and 211 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: so you'll see this sometimes when somebody is bludgeoning, let's say, 212 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: with a very distinctive objects such as a hammer, you know, 213 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 2: sometimes the hammer head, you know, you'll see these circular 214 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: depressed skull fractures as the face of the hammer is 215 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: hitting the skull. But every now and then you might 216 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: see the claw end or the side of the hammer 217 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: being used. And it's as the offender is striking over 218 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 2: and over again, the hammer has turned in the offender's 219 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: hand or the victim has been you know, they turn 220 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: relative to the offender, and so different edges of the 221 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: weapon end up striking the victim. It's hard to say 222 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 2: in this instance, is he purposely choosing what end of 223 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: the axe is being used on different victims. I don't know. 224 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: Nobody can identify who this person is. The twelve year 225 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: old boy from one of our previous victims, gave the best, 226 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: if we believe him, gave the best description. Chunky black man, 227 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 1: bare feet, pants kind of pulled up and that's it. 228 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: Even you know, mister Dunham can't give a good description 229 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: because he's holding a gun and trying to get a 230 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: shot off. So the owner of the horse that has 231 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: been abandoned by our serial killer is arrested very quickly. 232 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: This guy named NETHERLEYE. Overton, he owned the horse, but 233 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: he's alibi number one and number two. He said this 234 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: horse was stolen from my stables. I didn't have anything 235 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: to do with this, and the police believe him. There 236 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: just is not enough evidence on anybody at this point. 237 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: And while the police are investigating, it is not a 238 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: vigorous investigation necessarily, according to people I've spoken to, until 239 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: we start to get to Christmas time, eighteen eighty five, 240 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: So this is a year right. December thirtieth was the 241 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: first murder of this kind in eighteen eighty four. Now 242 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: we're coming back to Christmas Eve, which is December twenty 243 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: fourth of eighteen eighty five. The city council had offered 244 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: a reward and they were trying to get people more 245 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: on the case. But really, this what happens on this night, 246 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve, is what changes the city and their point 247 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: of view. Because there are two more women who die 248 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: in the same night, and they are both white, and 249 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: this is where things change. So the first one a 250 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: woman named Susan Hancock. She was in her early forties, 251 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: and she was attacked first. This is on what was 252 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: two oh three East Water Street, and this is where 253 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: now local folks, where First Street morphs into East Saysarshavez today, 254 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: so right downtown. She was the wife of a man 255 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: named Moses Hancock. He's described as a carpenter. He's sometimes 256 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: a mechanic. They have two kids who were away at 257 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: a Christmas party when this happened. They had fallen asleep, 258 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: Susan and Moses in separate bedrooms, which was not at 259 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: all unusual, opposite sides of the house, so the house 260 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: was unlocked. He enters, He goes into Susan's bedroom, she's alone, 261 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: and he hits her with an axe while she's in bed. 262 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: He drags her into the backyard. Nobody hears anything in 263 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: un till Moses wakes up. He hears a noise and 264 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: This is about midnight, less than an hour after the 265 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: daughters had returned home and gone to bed. He has 266 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: woken up. According to a TV station here called KAVU 267 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: that had covered the story, there's a sinking feeling that 268 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: he has that somebody's robbed the house. He looks at 269 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: Susan's bed, it's soaked with blood. He runs around frantically 270 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: around the house looking for her. He finally goes outside 271 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: in the backyard and she is alive, but barely so. 272 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: The kids had come home while the killer is in 273 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: the backyard with Susan, Moses sees this shadowy outline of 274 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: a man on the lawn. He yells for the neighbors. 275 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: The man runs off. He could not see anything, just 276 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: that he was wearing dark clothing. And then I can 277 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: tell you about Susan's wounds. I mean, there's a lot 278 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: there a forty something year old white woman who has 279 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: a mail in the house and drags her to the 280 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: backyard with an axe and signs of sexual. 281 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: Assault, similar to the other cases with a male in 282 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: the house where the intended victim is being separated. And 283 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: this is now trying to lower the risk to the 284 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: offender so he can spend more time committing the sexual 285 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: assault and the other acts of violence on the woman. 286 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: One of the things that's interesting to me is you 287 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 2: have the kids who aren't in the house but come home. 288 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: Is part of the reason he is dragging Susan away 289 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 2: from the house. Is he aware that potentially kids are 290 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: going to be coming home. Does he have intelligence as 291 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: to what's going on inside with his family that night? 292 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know at this point, but that 293 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: from an investigative standpoint, would be something I just kind 294 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: of tuck away, going, huh, does he know what's happening 295 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 2: that night? And that's the reason he is dragging Susan away. 296 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: Why doesn't he just go into Moses' bedroom while he's asleep, 297 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: hit him in the head with the acts, you know, 298 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: and then spend time with Susan in the safety, in 299 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: the privacy of the house. That would be the easiest 300 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 2: for him possibly to be able to do. He elevates 301 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: his risk by having to potentially confront the male. But 302 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: it seems like that is a scenario that the offender 303 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: could choose, but he doesn't, you know, So that's informative 304 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: as to what the offender is thinking as he's trying 305 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: to plan this crime, and as he's committing the crime. 306 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: Do you think that the change in age from twenties 307 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: and thirties into forties or the color of her skin 308 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: is significant in any way? 309 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: You know? At this point, you know, based on my experience, 310 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 2: I don't think I can put any weight on the 311 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: change in the victimology from black to white victim. There 312 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: could be something there, Or is he just out prowling 313 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: and he happens to look in a window and sees 314 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: an adult woman who's asleep by herself inside this house 315 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 2: and decides I'm going to do this. And it doesn't 316 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 2: matter what her race is, it doesn't matter that she's, 317 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 2: oh she's in her forties versus her twenties. We just 318 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 2: don't know at this point. Either scenario is a possibility. 319 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about the state of the room, 320 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: and then I'll tell you about her wounds. Susan's trunks 321 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: had been rifled through, the clothing was thrown all over 322 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: the room. The window was opened, and there was blood 323 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: on the windowsill. I have no idea what that means. 324 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: If that's her putting her hand up, or he gets 325 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: in or he's getting I don't know what that means. 326 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: But there's blood, the room is in disarray. Someone finds 327 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 1: the bloodied axe, which interestingly was the Hancock's axe. It 328 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: was typically out by their woodpile, so he just grabbed 329 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: it and used it. Is that different. 330 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that there is any opinion as to 331 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: whether or not he's bringing let's say, a personal ax, 332 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: or is he As he's out prowling, he runs across 333 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 2: various weapons, maybe a neighbor's yards, not necessarily the victim's 334 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 2: yards or victim's property. So this is not surprising that 335 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: he's using something that is readily present and in many ways, 336 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 2: you know, this is what criminals do, is they if 337 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: they're out and about, they're not necessarily going to have 338 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: the burglary tools on them or the weapons on them. 339 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 2: They know they can go into any house and find 340 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: something in order to accomplish the crime. You know, So 341 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 2: if they're caught by law enforcement while they're out, let's say, 342 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: walking in a neighborhood, they don't want to be caught 343 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: with a knife or in this case, an acts because 344 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: that would be kind of suspicious. Right now, without further details, 345 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 2: it's hard to draw any conclusions, you know, in terms 346 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 2: of what the offender is intending to do, why he 347 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 2: chose Susan, and then what are the dynamics of the crime. 348 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: But there is an interesting aspect in that he is 349 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: finding the window in which Susan is alone, the kids 350 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 2: are out of the house, Moses asleep in a separate bedroom, 351 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 2: and he's purposely agging Susan away in order to be 352 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: able to sexually assault her. Now, you said that there 353 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: was more wounds to Susan. 354 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: She had two deep head wounds which were consistent with 355 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: being struck with an axe. She had been hit on 356 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: her cheekbone as well as between her left ear and 357 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: her left eye, and he had used a round rod 358 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: like instrument and shoved it in her right ear and 359 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: she eventually died. But she was alive through all of that. 360 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 2: And you indicated that there was a significant amount of 361 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: blood on the bed. 362 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: In this case, the bed was soaked with blood, and 363 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: there was blood on the window cell, which could have 364 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: been her if she's alive, grabbing, you know, covered in blood, 365 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: grabbing for anything as he's dragging her outside, who knows 366 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: or splatter. 367 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: Sure, but they're not describing that there's a bloody trail 368 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 2: that leads out the back door or the front. 369 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: Door, not that I can see now. 370 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: Okay, So with these types of wounds, these head wounds, 371 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 2: they bleed extensively. The amount of blood inside the bedroom 372 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: is consistent with she received and you know, these wounds, 373 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: at least some of these wounds while she's in the bed. 374 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,479 Speaker 2: The fact that we're not getting any descriptions of blood 375 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: anywhere else in the house tends to suggest that she 376 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: likely was taken out through the window. 377 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: Well, we have the city physician arriving, William Jefferson Burt. Again, 378 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: if you've heard my season eight of tenfold More Wicket, 379 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: you will recognize that name. William Jefferson Burt. He was 380 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: a very well known physician. He reported to all of 381 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: these crime scenes. He makes an odd decision. This sounds 382 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: like we're deviating, but it's kind of important. He brings 383 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: along his teenage son, who is a young man named Eugene. 384 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 1: He is sixteen, and Eugene is the one who found 385 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: the axe in the bedroom. So he brings it down, 386 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: he hands it to his dad. It's covered in blood, 387 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: and life would move on, you know, for the Burt family. 388 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: Except I need to bring this up because it is 389 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: something I talk about in tenfold. That season is about 390 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: Eugene Burt twelve years later, because at age twenty eight, 391 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: he murders his wife and his two young girls with 392 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: an axe, and he wraps them up with wire and 393 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: cloth and shoves them down his cistern. And one last 394 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: thing before you react. When he was a child, he 395 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: had impaled a live bunny rabbit with a railroad tie. 396 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: I need a drink for all that. Get a sixteen 397 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: year old do this, I think, I will tell you. 398 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: I think this absolutely influenced him. I don't know he 399 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: was briefly thought about because he found the axe, but sixteen. 400 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think Eugene, you know this torture 401 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: killing of the bunny rabbit, as I've mentioned in prior episodes. 402 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 2: To me, that's the number one predictor of the various 403 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 2: serial killer triad aspects that somebody's going to escalate to 404 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 2: inflicting violence on humans. So I would say, yes, this 405 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: in all likelihood, his exposure to this crime would be 406 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: something that probably fed Eugene's fantasy as he grew up. 407 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: Tends to indicate Eugene likely, even at this young age, 408 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: already was predisposed to thinking about violence, you know, and 409 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 2: so this may have shaped how he committed his crime 410 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 2: when he got into his twenties. 411 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: But we don't think a sixteen year old could pull 412 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: off all of this. I assume, right well, I. 413 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: Wouldn't necessarily eliminate the offender based on the age. A 414 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: sixteen year old teenage boy is very physically capable. This 415 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 2: would be an unusual series of crimes for a sixteen 416 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 2: year old to have committed, and is at least right now, 417 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: inconsistent with the witness, you know, the twelve year old 418 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: boy who saw the chunky black man with bare feet. 419 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: Specific that bare feet characteristic really puts a lot of 420 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: veracity on the twelve year old's details. And I believe 421 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: that the twelve year old is seeing the offender and 422 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 2: is able to accurately portray the physical characteristics of the 423 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 2: offender in the series. Eugene doesn't match those characteristics. 424 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: I'm assuming no, he doesn't. And you know, I have 425 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: photos of his brothers, and then I have good drawings 426 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: of Eugene, and he is not a large man as 427 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: an adult, I can't imagine as a sixteen year old. 428 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: He's not some strapping sixteen year old certainly nobody asked 429 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: about alibis back then, but I think you're right. You know, 430 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: when he lobottomized this bunny rabbit when he was very young, 431 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: it was his brother's bunny rabbit. When somebody said, why 432 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: did you do that, he said, because I'm interested in 433 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: my dad's job, and that's his dad was essentially a 434 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: medical examiner for the city. Sure, so it's very dark. 435 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: I mean I had thought that, like I doubt Eugene 436 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: Burt is responsible for this, I do think that this 437 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: series of crimes and hearing about it from his father 438 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: really influenced him later on. 439 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 2: Right, And you know, and this is where you know, 440 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 2: at this point in time, if Eugene is in a 441 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 2: pool of suspects, from my perspective, he's a weak suspect, 442 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: but he's not eliminated. He's just somebody that is a 443 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: name in my file. And if there's more information that 444 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 2: causes Eugene to kind of bubble up, then I would 445 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: start drilling down on Eugene a little bit more. But 446 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 2: my efforts investigatively would probably be looking at other individuals 447 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 2: and other individuals that match this what appears to be 448 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 2: a good physical description of the offender. 449 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: Well, the police don't have time to think about suspects 450 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: because another murder happened within an hour. I mean unreal 451 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: on Christmas Eve kV twenty four, which shout out to 452 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: kV twenty four. I used to work there when I 453 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: was a kid, did this story of course at television station, 454 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: and they did the story. They said that while a Statesman, 455 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: Austin American Statesman newspaper reporter was gathering information on the 456 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: Hancock case standing on the lawn, a shriek rang out 457 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: and another murder had occurred, this time at the home 458 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: of an architect named James Phillips Sor. This is now 459 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: on eighth Street, so this is not very far away 460 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: from where they were before, kind of First Street area. 461 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: This is a seventeen year old to name Yula Phillips. 462 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: She was well known in Austin society. White woman, of course, 463 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: described as a great beauty and married into a well 464 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: to do family. She was discovered when police ran there 465 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: from the Hancock residence. They run there and they find 466 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: her on her back with her nightgown pulled up around 467 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: her neck, which is how they describe as a sexual assault. 468 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: It's believed that her gown was used by the killer 469 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: to drag her outside like a rope. She had been 470 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: struck above her nose with an axe which split her 471 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: oh jeez, which split her forehead down the middle. And 472 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: she had been hit on the side of the head 473 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: with the axe. And this is the weird part. It 474 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: seemed like her attacker staged her body. There were three 475 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: small pieces of wood laid across her chest and her stomach, 476 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: and her arms were outstretched. Skip Hollingsworth said it looked 477 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: like she was posed like a figure in some twisted 478 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: crucifixion scene. 479 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 2: Geez, now, this is this is very informative, and I 480 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: definitely want to address the term staging versus posing. Okay, 481 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: and staging is when the offender does certain things to 482 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: try to make the crime look like something that it's 483 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: not in order to misdirect the investigation. Posy is purposely 484 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: putting the victim's body in a certain position or objects 485 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: on the body. We've seen this many times. I've seen 486 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: this and this now with you love, I mean, this 487 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: is posing. This is the offender. Now, this is the 488 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 2: offender taunting. Now I can draw an opinion. You have 489 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: two white women on Christmas Eve, both in nice houses, 490 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 2: nice neighborhoods killed within an hour of each other, or roughly, 491 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: you know, at least within the same night. And you 492 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: have one victim being posed in a manner with the 493 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 2: objects placed on her body as sort of as a taunt. 494 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 2: The offender is now seeking attention. He is now I'm 495 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 2: the boogeyman out here. You can't catch me. 496 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: And this sort of absolves Eugene Burt, doesn't it, because 497 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: he's with his dad at the first crime scene when 498 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: this is happening with the second crime scene. Unless it's 499 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: the shriek of hurt. Now, they aren't clear about the shriek, 500 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: unless it's the shriek of somebody discovering her. But I 501 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: got the impression it's more like the attack. Let me 502 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: tell you what happens inside the house. So her husband 503 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: was home, twenty four year old James Jimmy Phillips. He 504 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: was in bed with her with their baby, Thomas. Thomas 505 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: is not hurt. He is covered with blood. Jimmy was 506 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: struck just above his ear with an axe while sleeping 507 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: in bed. He survives, and they find the bloodied axe, 508 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: I mean, which he picked up another one because he 509 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: left the other one at the handcock scene. There's a 510 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: bloody axe found at the foot of the bed, as 511 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: was another footprint. This is in blood, and they said 512 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: it is on the floorboard of the house, and it 513 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: is clear that this person is missing a little toe. 514 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: Blood is better, right than dirt or snow in identifying 515 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: whether somebody's missing a little toe. 516 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: No, because you think about it. Let's say, the reason 517 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: there's blood on the bottom of the offender's foot is 518 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: he stepped in a source of blood. Now does this 519 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 2: source of blood uniformly coat the bottom of his foot 520 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: or does it just happen to miss his little toe, 521 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 2: you know's and so you could see where that could 522 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: account for the missing little toe. But you have the 523 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: prior footprint that they had concluded, well it's missing the toe. 524 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 2: So two different bare footprints in different mediums and in 525 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: each instance no little toe. That gives me greater confidence 526 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: that this offender's toe is either missing or is configured 527 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 2: in a way to which it would not touch the 528 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: substrate when it's planted. Maybe it's got a deformity and 529 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 2: that causes it to kind of arch upwards, you know, 530 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm sure there's medical conditions or the 531 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: offender had broken the toe and it healed funny, and 532 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 2: so it's not part of his natural footprint, though it 533 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: might be present. 534 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting about little toes and how I 535 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: thought I'd be talking about this again with a killer, 536 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: but we're ruleof who was my multiple murderer in season 537 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: one of tenfold he got frostbite. He was on the 538 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: run in Pennsylvania. He got frostbite. He lost his little toe. 539 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: He had a pair of leather shoes specifically made structured 540 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: for his little missing toe. He did a robbery, He 541 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: left the idiot, he left the shoes behind, and of 542 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: course they said this is a weird shoe. And that's 543 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: ultimately what at least got him indicted was that this 544 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: was something at the scene. This was clearly something specially made. 545 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: So it'll be interesting how this turns out. This bit 546 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: like a print in the blood on the floorboard, and 547 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: they removed the floorboard to preserve it for hopefully figuring 548 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: out who did this. 549 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and of course i'd want to know 550 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: it was a rich detail present. Now in this day 551 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 2: and age, we could actually do a comparisonry. 552 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: Buddy. Now I want to bring up something about casing. 553 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: I guess I don't know if there's probably a better 554 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: word for it, but he went a mile, so he 555 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: attacked Susan Hancock and then he went a mile to 556 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: get to Eula Phillips at midnight and one am. He 557 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: has to know who these people are, don't you think 558 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: or has been casing this or something, because how would 559 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: he have been able to do this in such a 560 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: tight time frame? Assault and killed two women in it 561 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: sounds like about an hour and a half time period 562 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: that are not right next door to each other, they're 563 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: a mile apart. 564 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would lean towards you know, he has been 565 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: out prowling in this these neighborhoods and possibly pre selected victims. 566 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: And he may have had other victims pre selected, but 567 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, he ended up going to ULA's location 568 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: versus maybe a different one. But there is a misconception 569 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 2: that these crimes take a long time to commit, and oftentimes, 570 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: I mean these crimes that this offender is committing for 571 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: the most part, they're going to be measured in minutes. 572 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: You know, this hour and a half, I mean, he 573 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 2: could have killed Susan, probably spent let's see, she's drug 574 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 2: into the backyard, so you know a little bit of 575 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: time there, you know. But once he dispatches her, does 576 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 2: he have an hour fifteen to cover the mile distance 577 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 2: and then be able to commit the attack on Ula. 578 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 2: I'd say that's a possibility, you know, And he's just 579 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: out prowling and then finding another victim. I wouldn't draw 580 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 2: any conclusions. 581 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: You know. 582 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: Again, I'm a little bit more just because the possibility 583 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: of different scenarios I think are equal, you know, I 584 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 2: lean towards he has proud in the neighborhood prior and 585 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 2: has likely selected a variety of victims, and it just 586 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: happened this night he chose Susan and Ula. 587 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: So let me bring this up. I think the police 588 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: at this point are not now one hundred percent convinced 589 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: that the attacks on the two white women are connected 590 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: to the attacks on the black women and Orange and 591 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: anybody else who was around. I think because of change 592 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 1: of race, yes, and the blitz. So what do they do. 593 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: They arrest the husbands of these two white women, and 594 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: they both go on trial, and I could tell you 595 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff about how the trial went, but 596 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: they're both acquitted. Once spends a year in jail, but 597 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: they're both acquitted. Neither of these guys are the greatest 598 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: guys in the world, but there's just not enough evidence. 599 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: What becomes significant is this floorboard from the Phillips house. 600 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: They compare it to both men, and the footprint doesn't 601 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: match either guy, and everybody's everybody's got ten fingers, tintos, 602 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: everything's normal. So they are now at a dead end. 603 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: I mean, we could talk a long time about the 604 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: trials of the men are both interesting, but this is 605 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: something that is, you know, significant. They are now out 606 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: of leads at this point, with these two women dead 607 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: and these men are you know, now acquitted. 608 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 2: Well, how often do we see this though, where the 609 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 2: spouse is often targeted in the investigation and then possibly 610 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 2: arrested and or convicted, and then subsequently turns out that 611 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 2: was wrong and it was a stranger that had come 612 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 2: in and committed the crime. 613 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: So during Moses Hancock's trial, his defense attorney, who was 614 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: a very famous US congressman named John Hancock no relation, 615 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: brought up a name based on the little toe, and 616 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: the name was Nathan Elgin. He was a young black 617 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: man who was missing a tiny toe, and he was 618 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: not a very good person. And that created enough reasonable 619 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: doubt for the jury to say, we don't think Moses 620 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: Hancock was responsible for this. There's someone else out there. 621 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: So we can talk about Nathan Elgin because Paul he 622 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: is our prime suspect. He is who most people think 623 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: was the Servant Girl annihilator. 624 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 2: Now, how does the defense attorney know that Nathan all 625 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: is missing his toe? 626 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: He has been in and out of jail. He's been 627 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: arrested for various being a jerk things, and they know 628 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: that he has a missing toe. It's just been something 629 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: that's been documented. But he has not been connected directly 630 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: to the Servant Girl just yet until police start digging 631 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: into it. He is a young black man who, at 632 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: the time of the Servant Girl murders was working as 633 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: a cook in a restaurant called Simons. This was on 634 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: the corner of Congress Avenue which is still Congress Avenue 635 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: and Pecan Street, which is sixth Street. PBS did a 636 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: wonderful history detectives on this case, and they called it 637 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: I just want to have this quote here. The address 638 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: was in the top one percent hot zone of probability 639 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: in the map of our geographic profiler had created about this, 640 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: So that's where he was at this restaurant, just right 641 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 1: in the middle of all of these murders. 642 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: And he's a cook, and he's a cook. 643 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: And he was never arrested. He was off the radar 644 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: for all of eighteen eighty five for police until something happens. 645 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: So this is where I want to know if there's 646 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: even enough evidence for this. Let me just tell you 647 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: what ends up happening. So it's February of eighteen eighty six. 648 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: There have been no murders since Christmas Day, technically one 649 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: am Christmas Day of eighteen eighty five, so we've gone 650 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: all of January with no murders. Nathan Elgin is in 651 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: a saloon. He is attacking a woman, like, yelling at her, 652 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 1: beating her. He's trying to drag her from the saloon 653 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 1: and into a nearby house. He's being violent and he 654 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: gets into an altercation with the police and they kill him. Oh, 655 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: I know, now we have a problem because people suspect him, 656 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: but there is absolutely no proof except he worked in 657 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: the area where all these people were killed. He fits 658 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,959 Speaker 1: the description, and he's missing a little toe. 659 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 2: Had he been interviewed during the investigation at all, did 660 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 2: he give any statements. 661 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: Nope, So listen, they made a plaster cast of his 662 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: foot after he was killed, and then I don't know 663 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: if this works or not. They compared it, this cast 664 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: to the bloody footprint, and it appeared to be a 665 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,320 Speaker 1: perfect match. Really, is that a thing? Can that happen? 666 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 2: You know? This this idea of being a perfect match. 667 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: It's at what level did they effect this match? Was 668 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 2: it just class characteristics in terms of the size, the shape, 669 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 2: the missing toe. Was there other features present in the 670 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 2: bloody evidence print that also were present on his foot? 671 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: I would call it guestimating, is what my best guess 672 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: would be for eighteen eighty six. 673 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 2: I would say, you know, they couldn't eliminate him versus 674 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 2: it being a match, you know, And that's typically you know, 675 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 2: when we start talking comparative sciences, and we've talked about 676 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 2: comparative sciences in the past, and some of the the 677 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 2: pros and cons of this type of evidence. Oftentimes, particularly 678 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 2: I imagined in the early days, there would be opinions 679 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 2: expressed that are way too strong of an association. So 680 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 2: for somebody to go in front of a jury and 681 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 2: say this bloody print perfectly matches Nathan's foot you know that, 682 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 2: in my opinion, would be a wrong statement. We cannot 683 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 2: find anything in the bloody print that eliminates Nathan's foot 684 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 2: as having made it is a more appropriate way to 685 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 2: put it out there. Now, how strong of an association 686 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 2: is it? Don't know the missing toe is significant? Is 687 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 2: there rich detail present, even if a minimal amount, but 688 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 2: could that be intercompared. It's just like the crease lines 689 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 2: like in the palms of your hands, are those present 690 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 2: within this bloody print? You know, that would be a 691 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,280 Speaker 2: class characteristic that has some distinguishing aspect to further they're 692 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: the association I would say right now, the perfect match 693 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 2: statement is something that I would discard. But at least 694 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 2: it's not like he has a size fifteen foot The 695 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 2: bloody print is a size eight. It sounds like at least, okay, 696 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 2: he could have made this bloody print. 697 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, they acknowledged that the two husbands their 698 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: footprints didn't even remotely match the one on the floorboard. 699 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: So I don't know what the characteristics are that they 700 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: looked at. Really, I do know that one of the 701 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: number one things that made investigators say we think this 702 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: case is closed with Nathan Elgin's death. Is that there 703 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,359 Speaker 1: were no murmurs after he died. That was it. They 704 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: were done nothing even remotely like this. People were killed 705 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: with axes, that happened all the time, but this was 706 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: not it. They died when he died. 707 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 2: The first two victims, Molly and Eliza, they both were cooks. Yeah, 708 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 2: maybe this was a common occupation. But at the same time, 709 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 2: that'd be something I'd be looking at. You know, why 710 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 2: were these these women selected that the offender have prior knowledge? 711 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 2: Can I show that Nathan knew any of these victims previously? 712 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,480 Speaker 2: This is even though you said, hey, you know, Austin 713 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 2: had gone through this exponential growth, it's still a town 714 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 2: of what twenty five thirty thousand, Yes, this is a 715 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 2: small town. 716 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I will say one interesting point is this 717 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: woman that he was beating on and trying to drag 718 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: from the saloon to a house. It sounds like she 719 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: had no idea who he was. It was random. So 720 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: that is another little check in them of this guy. 721 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he's showing a willingness to commit violence on women. 722 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 2: He's fitting the physical description of the twelve year old boy, 723 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 2: which I'm putting a fair amount of weight on in 724 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 2: terms of the accuracy of that physical description. Physical evidence, 725 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 2: the bloody evidence print footprint seems to at least be 726 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 2: within range of Nathan's one foot. I don't know if 727 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 2: it's a right foot or left foot. One of the 728 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 2: things I think you mentioned is that Nathan had been 729 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 2: in and out of jail. 730 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: Seems like it. Yes, there were some from what I've read, 731 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: there were some altercations. He was a violent guy. Yeah, 732 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: but I don't have any more information than that. 733 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 2: You know, part of what I would be looking at 734 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 2: would be, Okay, I'm going to timeline everything that I 735 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 2: can substantiate about Nathan's whereabouts, whether it be in custody, 736 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 2: or interactions with law enforcement, or you know, various things 737 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 2: in which, yeah, we know Nathan is here here here 738 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,919 Speaker 2: on these dates and times, and then match that timeline 739 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 2: up with when we have these attacks. If Nathan is 740 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 2: in jail for one of these attacks, then well he 741 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 2: couldn't have committed that crime. And since it seems like 742 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 2: these all these attacks are related, then that potentially could 743 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 2: eliminate him as the servant Girl annihilator. But I'm assuming 744 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 2: we don't have that kind of data on Nathan in 745 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 2: order to be able to do that. 746 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 1: And you know, I would say, in eighteen eighty six, 747 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: when this really is coming to a head and he's dead, 748 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: the police probably did do some due diligence. Certainly he 749 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: didn't have an alibi. But I think because this has 750 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:23,400 Speaker 1: been the accepted suspect for one hundred and something years, 751 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: there was probably not a definitive. No, this guy was 752 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: in jail, or this guy was at sea or something. 753 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: There must have been enough wiggle room wherever he was 754 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: that he could have done this. But you know, this 755 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 1: case was dropped, there were no more murders, and there 756 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: was a interesting rumor besides the fact that Nathan Elgin 757 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: had died. If you are not satisfied with that, perhaps 758 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: you can open your mind to the idea that whoever 759 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: committed these killings wanted to get the hell out of 760 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: America and made it to England and became Jack the 761 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: Ripper two years later, because that is a theory that 762 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: has gone around. No, that's quite a smart. 763 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 2: No, I don't buy that. I don't see any overlap 764 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 2: with these two series in terms of victimology, what the 765 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 2: offender's behaviors are with each of the victims. They are 766 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 2: very distinct. These are two different offenders, Jack the ripper 767 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 2: and then the servant girl annihilator. At this point in time, 768 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,280 Speaker 2: Nathan Olgan, I agree, he seems like a very strong 769 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 2: suspect with what they had on him. Does it rise 770 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 2: to the level of probable cause? I think I would 771 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 2: need to see exactly this bloody footprint and Nathan's foot 772 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,360 Speaker 2: to see how strong of a match could be affected. 773 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 2: And is that strong enough from a physical evident standpoint 774 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 2: to say, yes, Nathan is the one that left that 775 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 2: bloody footprint, and then I think you've got the PC. Otherwise, 776 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 2: I think he is a very strong suspect. 777 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,320 Speaker 1: And you know, this alarmed Austin for a very long time. 778 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: There were private citizen groups that formed watch groups to 779 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: patrol the neighborhoods, and you know, they were people who 780 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 1: closed down saloons and people were very scared. But eventually 781 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 1: when they figured out that the killings were gone and 782 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 1: people were connecting it to Nathan Elgin, then that all 783 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 1: sort of went away. I mean, there was always an 784 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,240 Speaker 1: increase in security as the city got bigger and bigger, 785 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: but ultimately this is the grandest unsolved case in Austin, 786 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,839 Speaker 1: with the exception of the yogurt Chot murders, and I'm 787 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: not going to get into those. You can google him 788 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: because that's so awful in the realm of history. The 789 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,879 Speaker 1: yogurt Chot murders for me as an unsolved caser number one, 790 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: but very close is the Servant Girl Annihilator murders. And 791 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: I will say, Paul, you know, for that season of Tenfold, 792 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: what I did was I like to go to cemetery's 793 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: graveyards to try to find the headstones of these people. 794 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: And it was not difficult to find Eula and it 795 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,280 Speaker 1: was not difficult to find Susan, but the other victims 796 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: who were black were all in unmarked graves from what 797 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: I could tell, in a graveyard that was meant specifically 798 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 1: for black people in the late eighteen hundreds in a 799 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: historic area. And so it was just a very stark reminder. 800 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: I have these two beautiful photos of Eula and Susan, 801 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: the white victims, and it's not the same case with 802 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: the other victims. 803 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 2: Sure, you know, and it's sad to think think that, 804 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 2: and you know, everybody deserves to be remembered, you know. 805 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,319 Speaker 2: And I know you're talking about this series as being 806 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 2: an unsolved series. I would just say it sounds like 807 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,839 Speaker 2: to me it's just not a closed series. But in 808 00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 2: all likelihood it seems like they have the right guy this, 809 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 2: Nathan Olgan. 810 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,399 Speaker 1: I agree, Well, what a story. And I will take 811 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: a few days off and process this and everything that 812 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 1: you've said, and I will bring you another compelling story 813 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: not located in Austin, Texas sadly next week. 814 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,879 Speaker 2: All right, well, I'm looking forward to it, Thanks Paul. 815 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 2: All right, Thanks Kate. 816 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. 817 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,719 Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot 818 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones Sources. 819 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 820 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson. 821 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 822 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 823 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 824 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,840 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 825 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 826 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:55,720 Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod. 827 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,760 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 828 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,759 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the 829 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,520 Speaker 2: Criminal Mind is available now 830 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's 831 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.