1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Today we are going 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: to talk about a person that came up in a 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: recent episode and I was like, we gotta talk about this, 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: and that is Vinnie Reem. She came up in a 7 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: recent episode about Charles Francis Hall. She was not directly 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: involved in that story, but jealousy between two other men 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: over her attention may have been a factor in Charles 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: Francis Hall's death. That remains entirely a matter of speculation. 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: But even without that episode happening in her life, which 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: didn't really happen in her life, it's been elsewhere. Her 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: life was really full of drama and excitement and achievement. 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: Don't worry, we will touch on that possible love triangle 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,279 Speaker 1: in the episode. She had so much that went on 16 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: before she was even you know, an adult, essentially like 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: in her very early adult years that like she's a lot. 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: She managed to reach a level with her art that 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: very few people manage. She did so at a very 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: early age. She became the first woman to be given 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: an art commission by the US government which she was 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: still very young, and she was also at the center 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: of a lot of controversy and scandal and so much 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: that we have to do her life in two parts. 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: That first part is going to cover Reem's early life 26 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: and her turbulent rise to fame in Washington, d c. 27 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: And then part two will cover the completion of her 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: first major work, that commission we just talked about, and 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: the rest of her life. And if that sounds a 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: little bit lopsided, as you'll see, it's because her first 31 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: big commission caused a lot of conflict, and then not 32 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: too much later in her life she kind of went 33 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: dark as an artist for a couple of decades. So 34 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: Lavinia Ellen Reim was born September twenty fifth, eighteen forty seven, 35 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: in Addison, Wisconsin. Her family was not especially wealthy. Her father, 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: Robert L. Reim, ran an inn at the time, and 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: she was named after her mother, also named Lavinia. The 38 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: younger Lavinia was nicknamed Vinnie, and that's the name that 39 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: she went by through her whole life. Vinnie had two siblings. 40 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: There was a brother named Robert Junior who went by Bob, 41 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: and a sister named Cynthia Ann who went by Mary. Yes, 42 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: she really went by Vinnie Lake looking at documents and 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: stuff that she prepares later in her life. She does 44 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: not sign anything Lavina. It's always Vinnie. And when Vinnie 45 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: was still just a baby, her father, Robert, who had 46 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: worked in a few roles in local politics, started a 47 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: series of jobs as a surveyor for various government offices. 48 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: He left in keeping behind. Because of this new job, 49 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: the family traveled around a lot, basically wherever Robert had 50 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: to go to perform his work and create maps of 51 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: the areas that he had surveyed. The whole family went. 52 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: In addition to Wisconsin as she grew up, Vinnie lived 53 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: in Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, and Arkansas at various times, 54 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 1: and eventually they ended up in Washington, d c. Where 55 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: Robert Senior was hired by the War Department as a 56 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: cartographer during the Civil War. Bob, her older brother, who 57 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: at this point was an adult, had stayed in Arkansas, 58 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: but Mary and Vinnie had traveled with their parents to Washington, 59 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: and both of the girls got jobs to help the 60 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: family meet the expenses of living in the very costly capital. 61 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: Mary worked in the Land Office, and Vinnie worked for 62 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: the Post Office. By all accounts, Vinnie had been interested 63 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: in the arts from a very young age. They'd lived 64 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: in these various frontier areas while her father mapped them 65 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: out for development, and that had not offered a lot 66 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: of opportunity to really be able to engage with art 67 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: and education, especially not at the level she really craved. 68 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: She did for a little while attend the Art Academy 69 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: of the Christian College of Columbia, Missouri. She had also 70 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: started playing music when the family lived in Kansas and 71 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: her father bought a guitar. She taught herself how to 72 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: play from a songbook and soon started teaching other people 73 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: how to do that. So once they were in Washington, 74 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: d c. She used some of the money she made 75 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: to take language and music lessons, and eventually she got 76 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: an invite from Missouri Representative James S. Rollins, who was 77 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: a friend of the family from their time back in Missouri, 78 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: and that would really change her life. Rollins was sitting 79 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: for a bust with sculptor Clark Mills, and he invited 80 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: Vinnie to come with him to one of his sessions. 81 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: Mills was a self taught sculptor who had gained fame 82 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: for his work depicting Andrew Jackson riding a horse for 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: Lafayette Square in Washington, d C. That was unveiled in 84 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty three. That sculpture is notable from an artistic 85 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: standpoint because when Mills created it he had never met 86 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: or even seen Andrew Jackson in person. He had also 87 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: never seen an equestrian statue, and his resulting work, which 88 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: features the horse rearing up slightly so that supported only 89 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: by its black legs, was considered pretty revolutionary at the time. 90 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: Later on people started to criticize it for being overly showy, 91 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: but at the time they were like wow. When that 92 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: statue was unveiled, Mills made this point of reaching up 93 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: and grabbing the four legs that were off the ground 94 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: and pulling himself up as a show of the work's 95 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: strength and its balance. If you have ever been to 96 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: Jackson Square in New Orleans, that statue that's there of 97 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson is the same one. It was cast a 98 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: second time by Mills, and all of this accomplishment on 99 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: his part as a sculptor sounds really grand, but we 100 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: have to note that it is not really the work 101 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: of Mills exclusively. It is very well known and very 102 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: well documented that a master craftsman named Philip Reid deserves 103 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the credit. Red was an enslaved man 104 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: that Mills had purchased while living in South Carolina, and 105 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: Reid was highly skilled in metallurgical casting, and he very well. 106 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: Maybe a future episode, but I feel like not giving 107 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: him any credit here would be in eighteen sixty three, 108 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: when Reem found herself in Mills's studio, Mills was finishing 109 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: up his sculpture Liberty, that was in addition to the 110 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: busts he was making of various politicians. Reim was enthralled 111 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: with the work that he was doing, and Mills is 112 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: said to have given her a piece of clay to 113 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: work with while he tended to rollins in his sitting. 114 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: He also gave her a bust of a Native American 115 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: chief to use as her model. While these two men worked, 116 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: she produced a medallion that featured this chief and profile, 117 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: and Mills was apparently so impressed with this that he 118 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: wanted to take her on as an apprentice. She kept 119 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: working at the post office, but her new tutor and 120 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: her boss worked out a schedule so that she could 121 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: do both of them. Yeah, she definitely, As you'll see 122 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: as we go on, modeled her entire career on the 123 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: way Mills operated, where he would have like one big 124 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: commission going on and then taking a whole lot of 125 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: smaller ones at the same time. Because Mills had both 126 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: a sculpting studio and a foundry, re was able to 127 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: get a really full view of the process of creating 128 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: sculptures and monuments. She also, as a teenager approaching adulthood, 129 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: started to think about her future. Taking inspiration from the 130 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: small group of women's sculptors who had started to be 131 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: recognized as professional artists, including previous podcast subject at Monia Lewis. 132 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: Vinnie really started to see that as a path for herself, 133 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: and she seemed to understand that she would need the 134 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: help of a lot of people in power, specifically men, 135 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: to be able to live an independent life as an artist. 136 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: Being in Washington, d C. Reim turned her hand to 137 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: sculpting the politicians of the city, and she used a 138 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: lot of her connections to grow her network and curry 139 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: favor when she could using these connections. In eighteen sixty four, 140 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: Reim was given the honor of sculpting President Abraham Lincoln 141 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: from life. This took some work on her part. She's 142 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: said to have gotten several members of Congress to approach 143 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: the President with this request, and so he was initially reluctant. 144 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 1: He did agree. Some accounts suggest that Lincoln was swayed 145 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: by the fact that Reem was from a humble background 146 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: and had, like him, lived on the frontier. From eighteen 147 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: sixty four to eighteen sixty five, she created the Lincoln Bust. 148 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Their sittings together were thirty minutes at a time. The 149 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: actual number is not entirely clear to me. I read 150 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: differing accounts, but it's about half a dozen and Reim 151 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: later reported that the President rarely spoke during these meetings. 152 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: He didn't sit still the way you might imagine someone 153 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: sitting for a painting, though he tended to walk around 154 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: the office and tend to his business. She also described 155 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: him as very sorrowful during these meetings. His son Will 156 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: had died two years prior, and that even sometimes he 157 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: would cry. And whether any of this is true, we 158 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: just don't know, because she gave these accounts after his death, 159 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: and he never commented on their meetings. What we do 160 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: now is that having Lincoln sit for her immediately put 161 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: Vinny Reim in very high demand. It seems like everyone 162 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: in Washington wanted to sit for this young artist who 163 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: had sculpted the President. Soon she had commissions from a 164 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: lot of the city's politicians. Just as Reim was nearing 165 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: completion of the Lincoln bust, the President was assassinated by 166 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: John Wilkes Booth, and while Vinnie Reim described reeling from 167 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: the news that Lincoln had been shot, she was also 168 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: pretty quick to turn to thoughts of what would happen next. 169 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: As various memorial committees formed, She knew that some sort 170 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: of memorial would be commissioned for the President, and she 171 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: wanted to be the one to receive that commission. She 172 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: campaigned hard for it, as hard as any politician ever 173 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: had for office. She wrote to the head of the 174 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: House Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds, John H. Rice, 175 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: stating that she knew there would be a call for 176 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: a life size marble of Lincoln in the Capitol, and 177 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: she stated her aim quite plainly, writing quote, I respectfully 178 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: solicit the influence of your committee in favoring me an 179 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: order for the same, and submit my model bust of 180 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: mister Lincoln as a specimen of my work. She also 181 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: pulled off a huge feet in the form of a petition. 182 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: She had, with help drafted the body of it herself, 183 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: and it stated in part quote to whom it may concern, 184 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: the undersigned members of the Senate and House of Representatives 185 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: of the Congress of the United States, and others being 186 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: personally acquainted with Miss Benny Reem, take great pleasure in 187 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: endorsing her claims upon public patronage, no less as a 188 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: most worthy and accomplished young lady than as possessing rare 189 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: genius in the beautiful art of sculpture. The document next 190 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: lists the various works she's completed, including of course, her 191 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: Lincoln bust, and then it concludes with quote, as Americans, 192 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: we should feel a national pride in Miss Reem and 193 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: desire to aid her in the development of her unquestionable genius, 194 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: fitly sustained. We feel every confidence that she will excel 195 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: her profession, and with age and experience, rank her name 196 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 1: with those who have already won high places in America's 197 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: Temple of Art. We're going to talk about this petition 198 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: some more, and the names on it and the effect 199 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: it had after we pause for a sponsor break. The 200 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: truly astonishing part of Vinny Rheim's petition to be considered 201 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: for the Lincoln Sculpture Commission was the list of people 202 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: who signed it. Thirty one senators in one hundred and 203 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: ten members of the House of Representatives put their names 204 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: to it, but more impressively, so did Skuylar Colfax, Speaker 205 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: of the House, Henry Stanberry, Attorney General O. H. Browning, 206 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: Secretary of the Interior Hugh McCullough, Secretary of the Treasury, J. W. Barnes, 207 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: the Surgeon General Ulysses S. Grant, General of the Union Army, 208 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: and Andrew Johnson, the President. Vinnie had made the rounds 209 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: of people she had connections with in DC, and she 210 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: had gotten them to sign, and then she worked with 211 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: Johnny Trace to craft a bill to be introduced into 212 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: the House suggesting reim as the sculptor to whom the 213 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: inevitable commission should go. She also sent gifts to congressmen, 214 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: things like small sculptures and flowers, and she asked the 215 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: politicians she had become closest to for their aid in 216 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: lobbying with their colleagues. Rice introduced the topic to the 217 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: House on July twenty sixth, eighteen sixty six, and although 218 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: there were criticisms, mainly that she was very young and 219 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: not up to the task, it passed a vote by 220 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: a landslide. California Senator John Conness had agreed to introduce 221 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: this bill to the Senate. It didn't go as well there. 222 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: In that instance, the arguments against Reim were led by 223 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: Charles Sumner of Massachusetts. He had turned down the request 224 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: to sign Reem's petition and he felt that she was 225 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: to and experienced. He also introduced the information that Mary 226 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: Todd Lincoln, who was very good friends with, agreed with him. 227 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: As Vinnie watched from the gallery, she saw this bill 228 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: argued and become a matter that was argued for its 229 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: merits of having even been introduced. The Senate was in 230 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: the midst of looking at issues like war widows and 231 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: veterans pensions, so this just did not seem as important, 232 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: and some people were angry it had even been brought 233 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: in to begin with. When a vote was called as 234 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: to whether or not the Senate should take up the resolution, 235 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: it did pass, though that meant that debate could begin 236 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: in earnest and as Vinnie looked on. A bunch of 237 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: senators argued about her merits. Sumner opened his arguments by 238 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: saying it was a gamble to give such a large 239 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: sum of money to an untested artist. He was known 240 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: for his taste and knowledge of art, and he spoke 241 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: at length about the many pieces of art that were 242 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: installed in federal buildings and where they'd come from, pointed 243 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: out all these established careers of the contributors. He also 244 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: compared the situation to giving Reim a position alongside General 245 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: Grant in combat. She just wasn't prepared for it. He 246 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: closed by noting that the politicians who wanted to support 247 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: her career could do so with gifts or grants, but 248 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: that it was not really a wise investment to put 249 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: so much faith and finance behind somebody with her experience 250 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: level for such an important project. This is a long speech, 251 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: and at several points he made it seem as though 252 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: he had been forced to say such unkind things, noting quote, 253 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: I am pained to be constrained to say what I do. 254 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: But when you press this to a vote, you leave 255 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: me no alternative. Admit that she may make a statue, 256 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: she cannot make one that you will be justified in 257 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: placing in this national capital promise is not performance, but 258 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: what she has done thus far comes under the first 259 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: head rather than the latter. Surely, this edifice, so beautiful 260 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: and interesting should not be opened to the experiments of 261 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: untried talent. Only the finished artists should be invited to 262 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: its ornamentation. But Riem had as that petition suggested a 263 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: lot of supporters, and they were ready to just as 264 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: vehemently defend her as Sumner had been to argue against her. 265 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: Senator James Nesmith noted that Sumner seemed to be constantly 266 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: pointing to European artists as being more appropriate for such 267 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: a commission rather than considering an artist from the US. 268 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: He once again reiterated how good the busts she had 269 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: already created were. James Dougal of California also spoke on 270 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: her behalf, specifically arguing that calling it charity to commission 271 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: her was absolutely inaccurate. Richard Yates of Illinois also stood 272 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: in support of her. It seemed for a moment like 273 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: Sumner was really the only Senator against the commission, But 274 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: then Michigan Senator Jake of Merit Howard spoke. He was 275 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: very conservative and was not at all in favor of 276 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: Reim getting ten thousand dollars to make a statue when 277 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: she had never done anything quite like it before. He stated, quote, 278 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: she has shown no lack of that particular talent known 279 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: as lobbying and pressing forward her enterprise. I have seen 280 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: her models of mister Lincoln. I have seen and examined 281 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: the one, especially to which references most frequently had And 282 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: although I do not pretend to be a connoisseur in 283 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: this kind of art, I am prepared to say that 284 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: I never was satisfied with that model. He goes on 285 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: to describe the Lincoln bust as quote monotonous and without 286 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: meaning and without spirit. But he then got really mean 287 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: and openly sexist about it, saying, quote, having in view 288 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: the youth and inexperience of miss Reem, and I will 289 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: go further and say, having in view her sex, I 290 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: shall expect to comply failure in the execution of this work. 291 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: I would as soon think of a lady writing the 292 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: Iliad of Homer, I should as soon think of placing 293 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 1: at the head of an army a woman for the 294 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: conduct of a great campaign. This started a side argument 295 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: with Pennsylvania Senator Edgar Cowan, who wasn't exactly a supporter 296 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: of Vinny, but he thought Howard had gone too far, 297 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: and he pointed out that history showed women doing exactly 298 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: the kinds of things that the Michigan senator just found unfathomable. 299 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: Senator McDougall also joined this argument, and, in a move 300 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: was sort of humorous to Holly in research, invoked Sappho 301 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: on the Senate floor as evidence of the capability of women. 302 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: This to be just it tickled me utterly, like have 303 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: you read Sapo like and then then arguing about Sappho. 304 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: They were just really really wanted up about this whole thing. 305 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: And as this argument continued, the idea of an amendment 306 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: to the bill was suggested as a sort of compromise, Like, 307 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: what if some senators thought they added a stipulation that 308 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: Reim only would receive the full payment if she delivered 309 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: the statue as promised. She would, per the terms of 310 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: this bill, be paid five thousand dollars up front, and 311 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: then the remainder when the work was delivered. So some 312 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: senators thought they should add a provision that the final 313 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: payment also had to be approved by the Secretary of 314 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: the Interior after the work was inspected for quality. This 315 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: set off another round of debate, with Vinny supporters pointing 316 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: out that if she did the work, she should get 317 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: paid full stop. It shouldn't be on this contingent that 318 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: like everybody approved it. After all the bickering, the bill 319 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: went to vote. When the vote happened late July twenty seventh, 320 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six, Congress commissioned a full size statue of 321 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: Lincoln from Reim. And there's an interesting aspect to the 322 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: way the vote split. Quite a few senators changed sides 323 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: before it was over. Edgar Cowen, for example, had not 324 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: initially been in favor of Reem for commission, but then stated, quote, 325 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: I have come to the conclusion to vote for this resolution, 326 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: and I have come to the conclusion that this young lady, 327 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: whoever she may be, is unquestionably a person of great genius. 328 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: It may not be exactly in the line of sculpture, 329 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: but certainly she is that in agitation, she is occupying 330 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: the talents of all the senators and has shaken this 331 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: chamber to its very center. Certainly it is no ordinary 332 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 1: girl who can do this, and some of her early supporters, 333 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: even some who had signed her petition then reconsidered and 334 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: voted against the bill after having been persuaded by Senator 335 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: Sumner's lengthy arguments on the matter. But it passed, and 336 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: this made her the first woman to receive a federal 337 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: art commission, but those things were settled in terms of 338 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: the Congressional resolution. This commission was also controversial in the 339 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: court of public opinion. Because Vinny Reem had been Clark 340 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: Mills's apprentice in his sty at the Capitol, she met 341 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: a lot of politicians and this was a very unique scenario. 342 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: She had also been working as a teenager alongside an 343 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: adult man, which was unusual and carried some stigma, and 344 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: this set of circumstances meant that she was able to 345 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: make the acquaintances of numerous men without a family chaperone involved. 346 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: She was also very pretty and lively and very well liked. 347 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: As the commission and the debate about it became news 348 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: in Washington and then hit the national papers, people started 349 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: to form opinions about how things played out that involved 350 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: a lot of speculation about Vinnie Reim and her behavior. 351 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: The Hartford Current and a lot of other papers ran 352 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: an article from a Washington correspondent on August seventh, eighteen 353 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: sixty six, and it read, quote, the discussion in the 354 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: Senate on the bill to give a young woman by 355 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: the name of Vinnie Reim a commission to make a 356 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: full length, life size statue of mister Lincoln for the 357 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: sum of ten thousand dollars was very interesting and is 358 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: a singular illustration of the way in which the public 359 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: money is wasted. But who is Vinny Reim? No one 360 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: that I have met knows much about her, and I 361 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: presume there is little to know. She has been here 362 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: all winter, working with a woman's persistent energy to enlist 363 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: in her favor everybody who seemed at all likely to 364 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: help her in getting this appropriation passed. While it's not 365 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: explicitly spelled out here, the implication was that Vinnie Reim 366 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: was doing something morally wrong. Because she was an attractive 367 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: young woman, Rumors started to swirl that she had used 368 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: her feminine charms in some way to gain the favor 369 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: of all these politicians who then supported her for the commission. 370 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: The Portland Daily Press ran a brief mention of Reem 371 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: on August fifteenth, eighteen sixty six, which simply read quote 372 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: Vinnie Reim, to whom Congress has voted ten thousand dollars 373 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: for a statue of Lincoln, is a rather handsome young 374 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: woman who has extraordinary powers of persuasion through life appliances. 375 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: So far as known, she has never accomplished a single 376 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: work of art which will stand criticism. For months, there 377 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: continued to be negative press about Reim, a lot of 378 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: it insinuating that she had done something inappropriate to gain 379 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: the favor of so many representatives and the Leavenworth Times 380 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: of Levenworth, Kansas a commentary piece ran on September sixth 381 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 1: under the headline A homely woman's opinion of a pretty 382 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: one that has its own problems right there, although it 383 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,479 Speaker 1: was intended as an insult to the woman sharing her 384 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: opinion as follows, quote Miss swiss Elm says of Miss 385 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 1: Vinnie Reem, who received the ten thousand dollars order for 386 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: the Lincoln statue. She is a young girl about twenty, 387 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: has only been studying her art a few months. Never 388 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: made a statue, has made some plaster busts on exhibit 389 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 1: at the Capitol, including her own, minus clothing to the waist, 390 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: has a pretty face, long, dark curls and plenty of them, 391 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: where's a jockey and a good deal of jewelry, Sees 392 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: all the members at their lodgings or the reception room 393 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: in the Capitol, urges her claims fluently and confidently. Sits 394 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: in the galleries in a conspicuous position in her most 395 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: bewitching dress while those claims are being discussed on the floor, 396 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: and nods and smiles as a member rises and delivers 397 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: his opinion of the merits of the case with the 398 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: air of a man sitting for his picture. And so 399 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: she carries the day over Powers and Crawford and Homer 400 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: and who not. It is clear from this quote that 401 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: people were willing to minimize Vinnie's actual art experience and 402 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: accomplishment in favor of characterizing her as a woman who 403 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: beguiles men to get what she wants. And there was 404 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: a lot of gossip that during the Senate debate on 405 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: the commission, she was flirting from the gallery with various 406 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: senators below and winking and waving while wearing as this 407 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: right up mentioned some sort of alluring attire, but there's 408 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: no actual evidence of an any of that, and there's 409 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: really no way to know. Also that bare chested bust 410 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: that's referenced in the above quote was not a self portrait. 411 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: This is apparently something that really upset Vinie Reim. That 412 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: was a bust titled Violet, which features a woman that 413 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: doesn't look like her at all, in a very romantic style, 414 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: with flowers encircling her torso just below her bare breasts. 415 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: And it's very much if you look at it, in 416 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: line with a lot of classical art you would see 417 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: And just as Senator Sumner and others had worried, the 418 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: press also voiced concern that this project was just too 419 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: important to put in the hands of a relatively unknown artist. 420 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: The Chicago Tribune noted of Ream on October twenty first quote, 421 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: Who is miss Vinnie Reim? Was she ever heard of before? 422 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: What rank does she hold in the artist world? Has 423 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: she ever had experienced chiseling statues? In regard to the 424 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: first two questions, there seems to be a cloud of 425 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: mystery overhanging her. We have never yet met a person 426 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: of sufficient temerity to answer them. We regret, because she 427 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: is a lady, that she has manifested a spirit which 428 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: is utterly impossible in a true artist. We regret that 429 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: so important a work should have been carelessly entrusted to 430 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: inexperienced and unknown hands. No public man has ever been 431 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: so miserably caricatured by bunglers as mister Lincoln, and we 432 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 1: shudder at the possibility that the halls of Congress must 433 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: endure another. Perhaps the trickiest part in sorting all of 434 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: this out is that there definitely were politicians who were 435 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: interested in viny Reem romantically. It has been stated several 436 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: times that she was a charmer, but she seems to 437 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: be a little bit offhand about those interests. She was 438 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: still a teenager at this time, remember, moving in the 439 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: corridors of power, and while she's often characterized for her 440 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: savvy in dealing with men in power, we really don't 441 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: know if she was being calculating or maybe just overly 442 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: friendly for the mores of the time, and some men 443 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: took it the wrong way. She did, to be clear, 444 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: receive love letters from all kinds of men, including people 445 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: like General Custer and William to Cooms as Sherman, so 446 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: there's no way she was ignorant that she was very 447 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: appealing to men. But it's also impossible to know if 448 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: she was as she was often accused conniving in her 449 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: dealings with them, or to what degree. It's also possible 450 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: she was flirty and not a mastermind. We don't really 451 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: know how. If you want to hear more specifically about 452 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: the congressional debate about Reim, you can check out the 453 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: podcast Shaping History Women in Capital Art, which was produced 454 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: by the US Capital Visitors Center. The episode they did 455 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: on Reim delves into the expectations of women culturally during 456 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: this time and how Vinny Reim navigated that landscape. Now, 457 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: coming up, we're going to talk about how Mary Toddling 458 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: and felt about Vinnie Reem. Spoiler alert not great. We 459 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: will get into the details of it though, and who 460 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: it's a doozy after we hear from the sponsors that 461 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: keep the show going. Even as Vinnie signed her contract 462 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: and started her project, she came up against resistance, and 463 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: one particular roadblock to the project was Mary Todd Lincoln. 464 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: After Vinnie was introduced by letter to Missus Lincoln by 465 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: one of her supporters in the Senate, the artist wrote 466 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: her own letter to the former First Lady requesting her 467 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: assistance on direction of the statue. What she got in 468 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: return was a letter that is a masterclass in passive 469 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: aggressive politeness. Missus Lincoln wrote in part quote, I shall 470 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: be unable to comply with your request, and you will 471 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: allow me to say you are undertaking a very sacred work, 472 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: one of great responsibility, which artists of worldwide renowned would 473 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,959 Speaker 1: shrink from as incapable of the great task. As every 474 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: friend my husband knew was familiar to me, and as 475 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: your name was not on the list, consequently, you could 476 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: not have become familiar with the expression of his face, 477 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: which was so variable. I cannot fix my distressed mind 478 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: on any particular look. Hence the difficulty of the task 479 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: for you, a stranger to this great, good and christ 480 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: like man, praying that you have success. I remain truly 481 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: Mary Todd Lincoln. I like that she's not truly yours, 482 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: truly kind, I just remain married Todd Lincoln. Missus Lincoln 483 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: also wrote to Senator Sumner that Vinnie's work was sure 484 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: to be a quote mortifying failure, and also to jump 485 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: back a bit to the last segment that miss swissel 486 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: mentioned in the newspaper write up that Tracy quoted. That 487 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: was Jane Gray Swisselm, and she was married Todd Lincoln's 488 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: bff from the time they were kids. Then, when Vennie 489 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: tried to find the President's suit from the day he 490 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: had died so that she could model it for the statue, 491 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: she ended up making a request to Alphonse Dunn, who 492 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: was the White House dorman. He had been given the 493 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: suit as a show of thanks for his service, and 494 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: Mary Todd Lincoln interceded with this request. She wrote to 495 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: Don that he should not let Vinni reem borrow the suit. 496 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: Missus Lincoln knew that she was being really petty in 497 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: all this, because she concluded this letter to Don pretty 498 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: frantically with quote, let me hear from you on this subject. 499 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: When you receive this letter and show this letter to 500 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: no one, only burn it. I feel, as I gave 501 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: them to you, I can dictate a little about them. 502 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: Write on receipt of this what you say will not 503 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: be mentioned. Use your own discretion about lending the clothes. 504 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: But as they are a gift from me, you are 505 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: under no obligation to yield them into other hands. All 506 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: this year will understand, I do not wish my name 507 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: mentioned in it. Write me all about it, Burn this 508 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: and mention contents to no one once again, Congressman got involved. 509 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: All of Reem's network was trying to just smooth all 510 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: of this over, and that seems to have worked because 511 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: Missus Lincoln then wrote to Don again three weeks later 512 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: and told him he could loan out the suit and 513 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: that she've really hoped that Vinnie Reem succeeded in her 514 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: endeavor up but she also got in another instance of 515 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: saying that she did not know Reem and thought she 516 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: was very inexperienced. Still, though at this point the matter 517 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: was resolved, and Vinnie got to use these clothes that 518 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,479 Speaker 1: whole like burn this, burn this, She's horrible. I hate her. 519 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: Burn this. Don't tell anybody I said this, and also 520 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: burn it. Do not mention my name, but you got 521 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: to burn this letter, which he obviously did not because 522 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: the letter exists. Right As press commentary and speculation about 523 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: her continued, Realm got to work. She had been granted 524 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: a studio space in the Capitol, which required some updates 525 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: before she was pleased with it for working, and once 526 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: it was ready, she essentially had the studio open and 527 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: people could stop in almost any time and watch her work. 528 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: She worked very long hours, from early in the morning 529 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: to as late as eleven PM on a lot of days, 530 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: and as more and more people visited her studio, they 531 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: were actually pretty charmed and impressed by her, and this 532 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: resulted in a little bit more positive press than before 533 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: the project started, although there was still plenty of negative. 534 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: But the studio became like the it spot for visitors 535 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: to the Capitol. A lot of the things I read 536 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: suggested it became Washington, DC's biggest tourist destination. Everyone from 537 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: war veterans to Supreme Court justices to Lincoln's son, Robert 538 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: Todd Lincoln came to visit at one point or another, 539 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: and often they would linger and socialize while watching the 540 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: artist at work. Later, Vinnie described the studio's crowds this way, 541 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: quote friend and gathered with a common interest the success 542 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: of the work. Old feuds were forgotten and they were 543 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: met on neutral ground, some on friendly terms who had 544 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: not spoken to each other for years. I was generally 545 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: a silent listener as the men converse, but what they 546 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: said made deep impression forever on their lips was the 547 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: name of Lincoln. And throughout all of this, Vinnie wasn't 548 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: only working exclusively on the Lincoln model. She was also 549 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: as her mentor, Clark Mills, had done taking other commissions 550 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: to keep steady cash flow, so her studio was a very, 551 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: very busy place. Even as Raim's Lincoln model was nearing 552 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: completion in the summer of eighteen sixty eight, there was 553 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: yet more controversy. She'd made the head in clay and 554 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: then cast it in plaster, and then used the plaster 555 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: cast atop the body, which was sculpted in clay supported 556 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: by iron rods. This model would be recreated in marble 557 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: for the final statue. Because the model was being shown 558 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: for viewings. Before this marble version was made, paint was 559 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: used to match the clay in plasterer sections. A lack 560 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: of understanding about this process led people to accusing ream 561 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: of fakery, suggesting that this work was not her own. 562 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: This rumor persisted enough that rem had handbills printed for 563 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: distribution throughout the Capital that read quote, Sir, I understand 564 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: that my model for the Lincoln statue is being criticized 565 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: for the reason that the head is in plaster instead 566 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: of clay like the body of the model. It is 567 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: true that the head is in plaster, but it is 568 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: also true that the model was first made in clay, 569 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 1: as is the practice of sculptors usually, and it is 570 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: entirely the work of my own hands, upon which I 571 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: labored for many months. A plaster facsimile was then taken 572 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: and sense placed upon the clay model, for the reason 573 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: that in plaster it was much less liable to be 574 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: injured by the daily moist which the clay model requires. 575 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: It was painted its present color simply to make it 576 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: correspond with the balance of the figure. It should be 577 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: remembered that very many eminent sculptors often model in plaster 578 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: instead of clay, and even had I done so in 579 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: this instance, it would have been perfectly legitimate and should 580 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: not be made the ground of criticism against my work. 581 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: The head of this model is a perfect copy of 582 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: the one made by me, being selected by them as 583 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: the most truthful likeness of mister Lincoln they could procure 584 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: very respectfully, venny Reem. In January eighteen sixty nine, the 585 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: statue the model for the statue was formally displayed for viewing, 586 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: and papers ran stories that said that the work was 587 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: a perfect recreation of Lincoln, but also that it was 588 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: not great art. There was, of course, another debate in 589 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: the Senate about whether she should get her second five 590 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Once again, Senator Sumner spoke out against it, 591 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: but when he was questioned as to whether he had 592 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: even seen the model, Sumner confessed that he hadn't, saying, quote, 593 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: I criticize it on what I have heard and read 594 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: about it. Ultimately, the statue was approved, but even so, 595 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: the money would take some time to be dispersed, and 596 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: a lot of that money was actually going to go 597 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: towards the marble reproduction. It was not as though Reem 598 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: was rolling in money from this entire work. That ten 599 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, which was a lot of money at the time, 600 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: was for a fully executed sculpture, but she had to 601 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: pay for all the materials and live off of what 602 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: was left, so she wasn't a starving artist by any means. 603 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: But though that price tag was very hefty at the time, 604 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: it didn't set the artist up for life. She was 605 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: going to have to contract someone to recreate it in marble. 606 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: The next step was for twenty two year old Vinnie 607 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: Reim to take her model to Italy so that it 608 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: could be made in marble. And we will get into 609 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: that and the rest of her life next time. And 610 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: if any of you know a lot about Vinnie Riem 611 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: and you're like, there's another scandal you haven't mentioned, it's 612 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: coming in part two. I just had to break up. 613 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,439 Speaker 1: There's so many scandals and the next one is also 614 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: so juicy that it just wouldn't fit. I have listener 615 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: mail that has nothing to do with scandal or you know, drama, 616 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: unless you find bird things dramatic, all right, which some 617 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: people do. This is from our listener Kirsten, who's or 618 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: maybe she says Kirsten, I don't know, so apologies if 619 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: I got it wrong. Uh, And writes Hi Ally and Tracy. 620 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: I love your podcast and was excited about Holly's recent 621 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: request for Corvid photos. Here are a couple of beautiful 622 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: Australian magpies begging me at a cafe in Sydney's t 623 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: Arangazoo just yesterday. Unfortunately they could not have any of 624 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: my beer or chocolate ice cream. I am completing a 625 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: trip to my fifty ninth and sixtieth countries visited New Zealand, Ana, Australia. 626 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: I highly recommend visiting these countries for anyone who enjoys 627 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: seeing unique birds. Well, they just went higher on my list. 628 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: Fun fact, Australian magpies are actually not related to other 629 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: magpies and are technically not corvids, but after your request, 630 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: I felt they were too beautiful not to share. Thank 631 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: you for your wonderful work. It makes the world a 632 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: better place. This is Kirsten, who went on the Barcelona 633 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: trip with us, and I can't remember how she pronounced it, 634 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: and I feel bad, but I love some CorV some again, 635 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,959 Speaker 1: these aren't technically corvids, but these magpies are beautiful because 636 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: they look almost like they have the piebald coloring that's 637 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: like chunks of white with chunks of black, which I love. Which, 638 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: by the way, some corvids do have that coloring. They 639 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: are not all black. But I'm here for it. I 640 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: want all of the all of the bird colors. I 641 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: want all the bird pictures. We saw some magpies in Barcelona. 642 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,959 Speaker 1: M hmm. I'm imagining probably different birds than the ones 643 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: in these pictures, which I don't have pulled up because 644 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: a different place. But I had not ever made the 645 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: connection of what magpies actually looked like, and I had 646 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: kind of made a picture of them in my head 647 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: that looked like a crow or a raven or something similar. 648 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: And they don't look like that at all. I mean 649 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: insofar as they have two legs and two wings and 650 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: a beak. Yeah, but they're shaped and colored differently. Yes, 651 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: they are. Listen, there are always lots of discussions about 652 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: what birds are what, especially if you get into Corvid's right, 653 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: Like a lot of people think that crows are ravens 654 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: and ravens are crows. That's not true. Ravens are much bigger. 655 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,479 Speaker 1: This got to be a big debate in my life 656 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: because we have I still believe in my heart. We 657 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: had last year one weird raven that was visiting us. Yes, 658 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: this is not normal territory for a raven, which is 659 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: why it was weird. And he was like, he looked 660 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: like a very old dude in his rough around his 661 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: neck was very gray, and he just had this great 662 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: grizzled look about him. And we used to call him 663 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: bearn afonas, which if you watch what we do in 664 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: the shadows you will understand. But that brain. But most 665 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: most of the time, the ones you see running around, 666 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: at least in our area of the country are indeed crows. Yeah, 667 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 1: Rosebary Moscow made like a how to tell a raven 668 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: from a crow, Yeah, webcomic and what like. Even with that, 669 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: they're still pretty similar. Yeah, it can be tricky. Ravens 670 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: are usually most people like. The joke is, if you're 671 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: not sure, it's probably a crow. If you're like, holy crap, 672 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: that's huge, it's a raven. Yeah. And that's of course 673 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: in the United States. Other places might different different differ 674 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah. The the rough is usually what I 675 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: look for. Like, ravens tend to have that fluffy bit 676 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: of feathering right under their head in a neck that 677 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: makes them look a little more distinctive. But sometimes those 678 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: sit closer to their bodies. Depend on the bird. Anyway, 679 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: you didn't come here for bird talk. You came here 680 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: for history. But here you got some bird talk as 681 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: a bonus. If you would like to write to us 682 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: about your bird theories, your bird pictures, whatever you wish, 683 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,800 Speaker 1: you can do that at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 684 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media as missed 685 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: in History And if you have not subscribed yet but 686 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: you would like to, that is the easiest thing on 687 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: earth to do. You just do it on your iHeartRadio 688 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: app or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. Stuff 689 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 690 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 691 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.