1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Danny and Samantha and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: I'll Never told you production of iHeartRadio. And if you're 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: listening to this when it comes out. I have been 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: absence or about a week because I got jury duty. 5 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: I was selected. I served on a jury If we 6 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: have time, I'm going to talk about it at the end. 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: If we don't have time, I'll talk about it in 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: a Monday Mini because I learned a lot everyone. It 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: was a really intense, fascinating experience. I've been summoned to 10 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: jury duty before, but this was the first time I've 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: been chosen to serve on jury duty. And it happened 12 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: very suddenly because I had pushed it off. You get 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: one defer e that is not related to They have 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: kind of a set of reasons that you can just deffer. 15 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: Then you have one you can just say, like, this 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: is not a good time for me. And I did 17 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: it because I got somemoned doing when we were going 18 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: to be in Seattle, so I deferred it and then 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: it came up again. 20 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 2: That was so quick turnaround too. It was a quick turnaround. 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: It was a quick turnaround, and I was like, oh, 22 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: this is actually not a good time for me either, 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: which I'm sure is what everyone says, but they were like, nope, 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: used tell your center, earl, you're coming back. And this 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: episode is kind of timely in a couple of ways. 26 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: Although as I was researching this, it's not as timely 27 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: as I thought, because there were a couple cases that 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: happened around women serving on jerry duty on like Halloween, 29 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: but it was like very specific, So it's not as 30 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: timely as I got really excited about when I was 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: research But yeah, we have been I feel like I 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: have been traveling, busy doing stuff since June, and then 33 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: you were sick, Samantha, and then this jury duty thing happened, 34 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: and so if I'm a little arresty, that is why. 35 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: But yeah, one of the things that I will say 36 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: is interesting about this is I have never made it past. Essentially, 37 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: what happens is you get a you get a letter 38 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: and it says you've been summoned, and it gives you 39 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: the date and time and all of that. I went 40 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: in last time I was summoned, the case got settled 41 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: before even a jury had been chosen, so I thought 42 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: that I had served jury duty and it just got settled. 43 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: But that is not what happened this time. I made 44 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: it to the interview stage obviously, perhaps, but you know 45 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: that's when they ask you their questions if they're trying 46 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: to see do we want this person on our jury. 47 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: And they asked me about the podcasting, Samantha, and they 48 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: were like, well, what what are your podcasts about? And 49 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: I have to say I said it was an intersexual 50 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: feminist podcast. I did not do the thing we usually 51 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: do or I usually do or it's women's yes, because 52 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: I was like, no one they could look it up. 53 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: But two, I'm won't be clear. I'm clear about this. 54 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: But they did ask me a lot of questions about 55 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: my closeness or proximity to true crime podcast which makes sense. 56 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: Did you tell them we had like at least episodes 57 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: about it and why women love them? 58 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: I did not bring that up. 59 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: If they just talked about the episode, you should just 60 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: talked about the episode all the time. 61 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: I said, I was truthful. If anyone is listening that 62 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: I have provided voices for true crime podcasts before, usually 63 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: as a favor to a friend of ours that we 64 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: work with, but I've never been involved in scripting them 65 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: or writing them, creating them anything like that, But anyway, 66 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: I ended up getting chosen. And I do want to 67 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: say for this episode, which we're going to be talking 68 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: about the history of women and jury duties in the 69 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: United States, we are focusing on those things women in 70 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: the United States because there are and have been a 71 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: lot of questions around should we even have juries, because 72 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: we can't remove the toxic racist, sexist, homophobic, abilists soup 73 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: that we're all raised in. But then again, other people argue, 74 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: like is it better to trust judges alone? Some argue 75 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: that we don't need to do away with juries, we 76 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: just need to do a better job of making sure 77 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: they are representative. I will say I think mine was 78 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: pretty representative. Again, if I have time, I will talk 79 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: about it at the end. And I also like, you 80 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: have to take notes during it, and they don't. There's 81 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: no transcripts, so you take these notes. And it even 82 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: came up and closing arguments where one of the attorneys 83 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: they were both women, by the way, one of them 84 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,679 Speaker 1: is famous, but they were both they were both women, 85 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: and it came up at the end one of them 86 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: said something that was incorrect and I had written down 87 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: the actual true statement, but the judge said, I hope 88 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: they wrote it down, because they don't. They don't provide 89 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: that for you. And essentially they give you the laws 90 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: to read, and you read them and try to apply 91 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: them to the evidence that you have, so I can 92 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: see that. Even to me, I was like, I'm really 93 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: tired and this lot doesn't make sense to be and 94 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: you're asking like somebody's life is in my hands at 95 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: this current juncture, and I'm so tired. So I see 96 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: the arguments all around it. Also, just to throw this 97 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: out here, there are juror scams that are happening right now. 98 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: Here's a quote from the Fulton County website. Do not 99 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: pay money, our chancefer money to cards are wires over 100 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: the phone for missed jerry duty to anyone claiming to 101 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: be a sheriff's deputy, which I happened to hear somebody 102 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: going through. She was crying. She was at the court 103 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: and she was crying. She's like, I am here and 104 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: I had I went through this person and all of 105 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: this because you can and will get in trouble for 106 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: not showing up. Yes, yes, so she was. It sounded 107 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: like she had fallen victim to one of these scams. So, 108 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: oh no, be aware that that is a thing. Yes, 109 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: but okay, let us just briefly go over the definition 110 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: of jury duty from Miriam Webster. Quote. Service on a 111 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: jury a group of people who make a decision in 112 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: a legal case. So the lawyers present these faircases their evidence. 113 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: Usually the burden is on the state to prove it, 114 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: and then the judge instructs you on the law, the jurors. 115 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: He instructs the jurors on the law you have to 116 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: apply to the evidence, and then you go deliberate and 117 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: you talk about it, and you decide. From the official 118 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: Federal website. Quote, Jurors listen to testimony, review evidence, and 119 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: render decisions in civil and criminal trials. Most US citizens 120 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: who are eighteen or older may serve on a federal jury. Quote. 121 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: Being summoned for jury service does not mean that a 122 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: person will end up serving on a jury. Jury is 123 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: needed for a trial. A group of qualified jurors who 124 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: reported to court in response to the jury summons is 125 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: taken to the courtroom where the trial will take place. 126 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: The judge and attorneys ask the potential jurors questions general 127 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: are related to the specific case before them, to determine 128 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: their suitability to serve on the jury. The process is 129 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: called warder, which typically results in some perspective jurors being 130 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: excused based on their answers from serving in that trial. 131 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: The attorneys also makes good to certain number of jurors 132 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: without giving a reason. Also, it varies by state, so 133 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: to be eligible in Georgia, for example, you have to 134 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: be a US citizen, be at least eighteen years old, 135 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: be proficient in English enough to understand and discuss the case, 136 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: be a resident of the county that sent you the 137 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: jury summons. Have not served on a jury for the 138 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: last twelve months, so hey, I got a year. God 139 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: not currently be on a grand jury or another trial jury, 140 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: not be under conservatorship, have had your civil rights sort 141 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: if you were convicted of a felony, are mouthfeasance while 142 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: holding public office? And that I'm assuming. I know assuming 143 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: is dangerous, but I'm assuming that's pretty much what most 144 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: states are. The jurys can look different. So the one 145 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: I was on was fourteeners with two alternates, but there 146 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: are also other makeups like six with one alternate or 147 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: two alternate, And boy were we looking up those alternates 148 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: because essentially the alternates you don't know you're an alternate, 149 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: and you listen to the whole case, and then at 150 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: the end you're told you're an alternate. You don't deliberate, 151 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: but you're supposed to. They don't want you to. 152 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: Don't know if you're an alternate. That is now, so 153 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: you don't know all time whether or not you're an alternate. 154 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: Where you know and I know, Oh, I was crossing 155 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: my fingers because I'm a coward and it was a 156 00:09:54,080 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: burger case if. But essentially they want they don't I 157 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: want anyone to know they're an alternate, so you pay 158 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: the same attention. That's fair. But then they announce it 159 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,119 Speaker 1: right before the jury goes to deliberate who the alternates 160 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: are and there to come in if something happens. However, 161 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: our alternates wanted to deliberate. Oh, and they ask the 162 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: judge if we could swap out, because there were plenty 163 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: of people that were like, I'm good, you want to 164 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: take my spot, it's fine, And he said he'd never 165 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: been asked that question before. But the answer was no. 166 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: People want me me, let me do this. 167 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were invested. They were both very invested, but 168 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe they'll never know, So that's kind 169 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: of the basic outline of what it looks like today. 170 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: But if we look back historically, it's gone through a 171 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: lot of changes. I saw a lot of conflicting information 172 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: about the start of jury duty, which again we're kind 173 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: of focusing on the West and the US. But the 174 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: story goes that the right to trial by jury started 175 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: in England in twelve fifteen CEL, though there were similar 176 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: practices happening earlier than that. Many of them excluded women, 177 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: know and a lot of it had to do with 178 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: things around owning property, which most women couldn't, having the 179 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: right to vote, which most women couldn't. These requirements that 180 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: just women couldn't meet because of the law, so that 181 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: meant that they couldn't serve on juries. There were some 182 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: exceptions though, going as far back as several hundred years. 183 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: In England all women juries juries of matrons were tasked 184 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: with figuring out whether or not women facing the death penalty, 185 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: usually because if they were, they were exempt from the 186 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: death penalty and got a lesser sentence. This was called 187 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: pleading the belly. 188 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: That's very specific. 189 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: It is right enter the all women juries. They were 190 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: considered medical experts. They were consulted about inheritance claims, they 191 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: examined women for signs of witchcraft, and they provided testimony, 192 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: And in seventeen ninety eight, the first instance of an 193 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: English style jury system in Australia consisted of a women 194 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: only jury. So they inherited a lot of that from England. 195 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, with the burgeoning of male medical professionals and 196 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: things like the stethoscope, these matrons and women only juries 197 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: dated away. Legal scholar Alicia Simmons wrote in twenty twenty 198 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: one that by the eighteen hundreds, people were starting to 199 00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: suspect women jurors were quote too irrational, too burdened by 200 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: suckling incense, too sexually ignorant, or too easily corrupted by 201 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: sexual knowledge. So yeah, I know, right, I feeling that's 202 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: all the things. 203 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just too human. 204 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: We don't try. 205 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: I think, I don't think I like this. You know 206 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: too much, You've say too much, right, you've birth children, No, 207 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: thank you, we don't like that. 208 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: Stay home with the kids. We'll decide these cases, which 209 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: is essentially what happened, and we'll break that down. But 210 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't until nineteen ninety seven that women secured the 211 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,479 Speaker 1: same jury rights as men. Across all of Australia. So historically, 212 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: in the US, women have been shut out of jerry duty, 213 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: allegedly because this aspect of public life was too intense 214 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: for women's delicate sensibilities, plus women just not having the 215 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: same rights as men in general. 216 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 2: He was still so from the ACLU. The ACLU has 217 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: worked over the years to remove barriers to women serving 218 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: on juries. Under English common law, which was the basis 219 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: for early American law, women except in a small category 220 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: of cases, were deemed unfit to serve on juries under 221 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: the doctrine of propter defectum sexes a defect of sex. 222 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: I call myself a defective sex all the time. 223 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: I guess that's a positive. I don't know. 224 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: It's a thing. Oh it's a thing according to them anyway. 225 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: Yes, And this was used. This legal argument was used 226 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: for a long time, the defect of sex. In eighteen 227 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: seventy nine, the Supreme Court in the United States determined 228 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: that race based disqualifications from jury duty were illegal, but 229 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: affirmed that states could keep their jury choices to men 230 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: and exclude women. However, a few states made laws allowing 231 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: for women to serve. Utah was the first d to 232 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: rule that women were capable and eligible for jury duty 233 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: in eighteen ninety eight. Also, plenty of states blatantly did 234 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: exclude black people. To be clear, a lot of this 235 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: came from the warder jury selection process, which basically allowed 236 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: people to make decisions based on stereotypes. So even if 237 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: it's like illegal to do that, people still did it. Yes. Also, 238 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: women were sometimes called illegally anyway. So I read a 239 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: couple fun I all say fun stories about women in 240 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: smaller towns where they just didn't have a lot of people, 241 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: and were like, yeah, it doesn't matter if it's illegal, 242 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: we'll call in the women. And in some places, women 243 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: could hold positions in the judicial system, but not serve 244 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: as jurors. Jumping ahead to the early nineteen hundreds in 245 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: the US, women were popular in some states as jurors 246 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: for prohibition violation cases. Places like New York had legislations 247 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: allowing for female jers that kept getting stalled and dismissed 248 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: with claims that the state wasn't ready for something quote 249 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: so experimental ooh. The UK passed the Sex Disqualification Removal 250 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: Act in nineteen nineteen, but women were excused from shocking 251 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: cases in nineteen twenty one, the Louisiana Constitution was updated 252 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: with quote, no woman shall be drawn for jury service 253 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: unless she shall have previously filed with the Clerk of 254 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: the District Court a written declaration of her desire to 255 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: be subject to such service. So essentially, a woman had 256 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: to do an extra step to serve on jury dute. 257 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: She had to know about it and have the initiative 258 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: go do this thing, which of course means that there 259 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: were less women serving. And there's a lot of legal 260 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: fights that were going to get into around this idea, 261 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: because essentially the argument was that doesn't meet the requirements 262 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: of a jury, that it should be something that gives 263 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: a point of view of like everybody. Women jurors were 264 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: allowed to serve in some districts, though, as you know, 265 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: this whole time is when women in the US were 266 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: getting the right to vote. Many suffragettes believed they'd get 267 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: the right to serve on juries like with the right 268 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: to vote, but that didn't happen. By in nineteen twenty seven, 269 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: only nineteen states had passed laws sanctioning women's presences on juris. 270 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, in a nineteen twenty seven edition of the Women's 271 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: Lawyer's Journal, Bernita Shelton Matthews wrote, since the adoption of 272 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: women's suffrage, women have arrived, so to speak, and are 273 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: demanding the why and wherefore of their exclusion from jury service. 274 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 2: Evidently they were not satisfied with the reasoning of the 275 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 2: great English jurist Sir William Blackstone held that the common 276 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 2: law requires jurors to be free and trustworthy human beings, 277 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: and that while the term human beings means man and women, 278 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: the female is, however, excluded on account of the defect 279 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: of sex. If it be, as Blackstone says, a defect 280 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: of sex that bars women from the jury box, the 281 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: women claim that the defect lies in the masculine, not 282 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: the feminine ranks. Are women to be jurors or not 283 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: to be? That is a question now confronting many state legislators. 284 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 2: If there's one subject which all the women's organizations are 285 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: agreed upon, it is probably jury service by women. So 286 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: with the women's cities clubs, the women's bar associations, the 287 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: Women's Party, and many other feminine regiments camping on their trail, 288 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: the lawmakers may as well prepare for a battle royale. 289 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 2: So one picture which is often conjured up is of 290 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: a mother being dragged off to jury duty while someone 291 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 2: sings to the grind. Nice little baby, don't get in 292 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 2: a fury. Mama maybe must sit on the jury. 293 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was a really I recommend reading this 294 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: article because this woman was coming for them. 295 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: She was mad, I just like she wanted. That's how 296 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: I read that. Everything was in sarcasm, dripping with sarcastle. 297 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: Oh she was mad, but this was this quote, the 298 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: like kind of little rime was something that was essentially mom's. 299 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: Women should stay home with their children, and that's why 300 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: they shouldn't serve on a jury. A Michigan Circuit judge wrote, 301 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: as quoted in this article, the women have brought to 302 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: the juries an element of sincerity, honesty, and righteousness which 303 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: was not present in the same extent before. I would 304 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: no more think of going back to the exclusive men 305 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 1: jury system of the past, then I would of advising 306 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: that home out to be managed and run without the 307 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: influence of women. The change has been greatly beneficial, and 308 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: what is more remarkable is that it has worked no 309 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: inconvenience nor harm. The article also includes quotes from judges 310 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: citing the eagerness of women to serve compared to men. 311 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: They were like, women want to do it, men don't 312 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: want to do it. But to be clear, the author 313 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: goes on to make the point that black men could 314 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: serve but white women couldn't, which we see over and 315 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: over again. But that was one of the reasons she 316 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: was real mad. A California case in nineteen forty six 317 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: led to a Supreme Court ruling that federal juries and 318 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: states that allowed women to serve on jury duty must 319 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: include them in the jury pool to represent a quote 320 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: cross section of the community, but it did not apply 321 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: to states where women were not permitted to serve. At 322 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: least a few cases were appealed because there were no 323 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: women on the jury. 324 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: So a justice wrote about this whole situation. The legislature 325 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: still has the power to prescribe the qualifications of jurors 326 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: and to impose this burden upon men alone, if it 327 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 2: sees fit so to do. It is not contended that 328 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: juries composers of men would be less fair to women 329 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: defendants than what juries composed of women. Indeed, experience would 330 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: lead to a contrary conclusion. The spirit of chivalry and 331 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 2: of deep respect for the rights of the opposite sex 332 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: have not yet departed from the heads and hearts of 333 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: the men of this country, all men or two nice anyway. 334 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: Women got the right to serve on federal juries with 335 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifty seven Civil Rights Acts. All fifty states 336 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: didn't passed similar legislation until nineteen seventy three, though also 337 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty seven is the same year the film 338 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: Twelve Angry Men came out all about men on the jury. 339 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: That is named that for a reason. It was really 340 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties that this issue gained a lot 341 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: of traction and attention. At the time, a lot of 342 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: the arguments were that women needed to stay home, that 343 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: they had too much going on managing the family and 344 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: cooking and caring for their kids, and they didn't need 345 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: the extra pressure or burden of jury duty. Up until 346 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, women in Alabama, South Carolina, and Mississippi 347 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: couldn't serve on jurys. Other states had ginger based barriers 348 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: to service, like requiring women to register with the clerk 349 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: of court if they wanted to serve. Like we said, 350 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty one, the Supreme Court heard and sustained 351 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: the conviction of a woman in Florida tried by an 352 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: all male jury. If I'm remembering correctly, it was second 353 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: degree murder. At the time, Florida had stipulations around women 354 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: serving on jury's. The court found that it did not 355 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: violate the fourteenth Amendment and that there was not enough 356 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: evidence to prove discrimination, so the appeal was dismissed. 357 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 2: So here's a part of what they wrote about their decision. 358 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: Despite the enlightened emancipation of women from the restrictions and 359 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: protections of bygone years, and their entry into many parts 360 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 2: of community life formerly considered to be reserved to men, 361 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 2: women is still regarded as the center of home and 362 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 2: family life. We cannot say that it is constitutionally impermissible 363 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 2: for a state, acting in pursuit of the general welfare, 364 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 2: to conclude that a woman should be relieved from the 365 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 2: civic duty of jury service, unless she herself determines that 366 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 2: such service is consistent with her own special. 367 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: Responsibilities, special responsibility. 368 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: The special responsibilities. 369 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty eight, Judge George Dittrich said, of six 370 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: women serving on the Antelope County jury in Nebraska, quote, 371 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: this is a special occasion, since this is the first 372 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: time in the history of Antelope County that a jury 373 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: has been impaneled consisting about men and women. This is 374 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: further evidence of the progress of the day and age 375 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: in which we live. This despite the fact that women 376 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: obtain the right to serve Jerry duty in Antelope County 377 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty three. So again, just because legally women 378 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: or marginalized people could serve, there were obstacles and methods 379 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: of keeping them out. But I think that happened on Halloween. 380 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: I think that was the one. I got really excited, like, 381 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: oh yeah, timing life, it's a horror story. 382 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 2: Yes. Wow. 383 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: There were other reasons that were often given for keeping 384 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: women out. I'm sure they won't be a surprise, so 385 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: let's go through a few of them. They were too 386 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: delicate for the details of the cases, especially sex offenses, 387 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: which would quote shock the moral sensibility. Here's another quote. 388 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: Juries deal with all manner of crimes, from innocuous offenses 389 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: to the vilest and most revolting aberrations of the human beast. 390 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: Their educations, their habits of mind, their points of view 391 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: have not prepared women to deal with such cases. 392 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: But oftentimes the victims were women. Okay, okay, okay, sure, sure, sure. 393 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: From a nineteen sixty six Mississippi case, courts have quote 394 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: a right to exclude women to protect them. In some areas, 395 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: they are still upon a pedestal from the filth of 396 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: scenity and noxious atmosphere that so often pervades a courtroom 397 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: during a jury trial. 398 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: Once again, another reason popularly given is that they would 399 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: be too sympathetic, that they wouldn't be able to convict. 400 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: Multiple judges and lawyers wrote about this at the time 401 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: and what they called false sympathy. One attorney argued that 402 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: women were too soft. Yeah, here's a quote of Philadelphia 403 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: judge writes that he had one woman on a murdered 404 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: jury last winter that brought in a verdict of first 405 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: degree in the case of another woman. She had deliberately 406 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: shot her sweetheart, and the woman juror served notice on 407 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: her eleven male companions that the time for such practices 408 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: had passed. Well, dang it, lots of one back there 409 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: from in eighteen seventy Wisconsin case. Women know quote nothing 410 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: of the dangers besetting men sometimes and the conditions under 411 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: which men are sometimes compelled to slay in defense of 412 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: their own lives. Reading about this, though, I have to say, 413 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: I don't really know what to make of it either way. 414 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: But I don't think this bared out because a lot 415 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: of the examples that were used women did convict and 416 00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if they felt like they had to 417 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: right or I don't know what it was, but this 418 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: was not panning out. Also another reason, given that they 419 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: would support lawlessness if it helped their community, it wouldn't 420 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: be a good idea for them to be in close 421 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: contact with male jurors, especially for a long time. Interestingly, 422 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: men were assumed to be softer on women defendants, which 423 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, so you're that's okay. 424 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: Right, Ill mean, that's what what the earlier quotes were like, Yeah, 425 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: they're too nice men, just they still too too gentlemanly 426 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: to convict a woman. 427 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: What what Yeah, it doesn't match up or isn't it right? 428 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: And again this matters for a lot of reasons, but 429 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: one of the big ones is there are a lot 430 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: of cases of all white jerries vindicating Ku Klux Klan violence, 431 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: so like it's important who get selected for these juries. 432 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: A lot of lawsuits followed in the ensuing years against exemptions. 433 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,719 Speaker 1: For example, one the ACLU filed against an exemption for 434 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: any quote housewife with children under fourteen years old, and 435 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: I think that was in Georgia. Exemptions for women were 436 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: viewed as violating both women's rights and the rights of 437 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: the defendant to a fair cross section of the county 438 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: guaranteed in the sixth Amendment. And there was some sexism 439 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: involved in getting women the right to do jury duty too, 440 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: because Yeah, a lot of their arguments involved how women 441 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: were more empathetic, better at sensing the truth, more domestics. 442 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: So it's like they were using those arguments to get 443 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: women on the journey as well. 444 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: Right, I mean when you look at the way that 445 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: the defending attorney versus the car like the prosecutor, the 446 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: way they what they are looking for, it's very much 447 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: those two types of arguments, like very split of like, 448 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 2: oh they're not they're gonna be too liberal, or they're 449 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 2: gonna be they're gonna be sympathetics, let's do these things 450 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: type of a thing. In that conversation, which also is 451 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: why was chef that you were picked? 452 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: I'm still like, which one picks me? 453 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: I don't, right, I doubt it was the prosecution, to 454 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: be honest. 455 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: Anyway, moving on, they were they were the ones that 456 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: were asking me the question the crime. 457 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you do know. That could be a conversation that 458 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 2: we looked to do because like true crime people are 459 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: they more likely to have bething sympathetic or like more 460 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 2: likely to convict because they're scared. 461 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: She asked me like, are you able, which they asked 462 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: something like this in every every juror, but she asked 463 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: me something that was different slightly, where she was like, 464 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: can you look at evidence? And you're more you're looking 465 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: at the evidence and not for the store. Yeah, so 466 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, but the state She 467 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: was like, no question, she already had you on a list. 468 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: Whichever it may have been feeling. 469 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 2: L No, I'm just those are my own thought process anyway. However, 470 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 2: it wasn't until nineteen seventy five, in the case Taylor 471 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: versus Louisiana, that the Supreme Court ruled that excluding women 472 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: from jury duty was illegal because it didn't fulfill the 473 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: requirements of choosing from a fair accurate representation of the 474 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: population guaranteed in constitutional amendments. However, this did not stop 475 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: lawyers from preemptively using strikes against women to keep them 476 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: off juries. 477 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: Obviously, yes, right until nineteen ninety four, when the Supreme 478 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: Court once again made a ruling, this time that these 479 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: gender based strikes violated equal protections provided by the Fourteenth Amendment, 480 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: but still courts were caught doing it anyway, even though 481 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: a nineteen eighty six case found that prosecutors could not 482 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: use race in preemptive strikes against a potential juror. In 483 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties, Alabama courts were exposed for striking 484 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: black women specifically from jury selection, and some of the 485 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: official reasoning was literally quote because she's a woman. And 486 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: of course, again, the race has been and continues to 487 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: be a huge issue when it comes to jury selection, 488 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: but also systemic racism in our justice systems and society. 489 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg spoke about the importance 490 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: of having women serving on jury duty in one of 491 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: her last appearances as a lawyer for the ACLU. She 492 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: argued that it marked women and their contributions as lesser 493 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: and that without women, they were quote diluting the quality 494 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: of community judgment a criminal jury trial provides. 495 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: From the Michigan Journal of Gender and Law, They say 496 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,719 Speaker 2: divergent life experiences may also create reliable gender differences. In 497 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: response to criminal jury trials, in the United States, women 498 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: experience higher rates of sexual assault, which may influence their 499 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 2: perceptions of the evidence in sexual assault cases and their 500 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: predisposition to empathize with victims of such assaults. Likewise, the 501 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: experiences of pregnancy and childbirth, as well as the expectation 502 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: that women take primary responsibility for childcare, may lead women 503 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: to consider that children are in their domain of control 504 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 2: and to uphold values of concern and care for children. 505 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: Yes, and as I'm looking at the time, as we 506 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: record this, I think I'll talk about my experience on 507 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: a Monday, Mini, But I will tell you that whole 508 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: idea of like prove beyond a reasonable doubt. The reasonable 509 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: doubt that does depend on your experience, and there were 510 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: some different people had different viewpoints on the reasonable doubt, 511 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: So I think this is really important. The quote goes on. 512 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: The evidence bears this out. In sexual assault cases, the 513 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: gender of jurors has routinely been associated with case relevant judgments. 514 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: It is linked to the likelihood of jurors blaming sexual 515 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: assault victims and believing damaging rapness, which in turn influence 516 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: final verdicts and proposed sentences. Women are significantly less likely 517 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: than men to believe rapness. Rapnists may include statements or 518 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: beliefs such as, she asked for it, it was not 519 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: really rape, he did not mean to, she wanted it 520 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: the rape, she lied about the rape, and the rape 521 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: is a trivial event. In the context of rape perpetrated 522 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: against a woman by a man, these myths can serve 523 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: to undermine the gravity of the sexual assault, minimize the 524 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: male rapist personal responsibility, and discredit and blame the female victim. Relatedly, 525 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: women serving as mo jurors have been found to empathize 526 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: more with sexual assault victims than men do, providing higher 527 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: ratings for victims credibility, believability, and truthfulness. Experimental research shows 528 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: that women jurers are more strongly and frequently able to 529 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: take the perspective of believe and empathize with a sexual 530 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: assault victim than their male counterparts, and some studies have 531 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: indicated that having women on the jury in sexual assault 532 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: cases leads to increased conviction. And I think we see 533 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: this in famous cases today. I'm sure plenty of examples 534 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: that you can come up with off the top of 535 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: your head where you have been like, oh no, I 536 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: just I didn't believe her, and I have to say, 537 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: I was outside of another courtroom. I don't know what 538 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: the case was about, but they were all saying she 539 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: was too dismissive and she like she. I didn't believe 540 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: that she. I didn't believe her. I don't trust her, 541 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: like all of these things that we hear over and over. 542 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: If you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, yes, 543 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: it is a huge inconvenience for people who are full 544 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: time caregivers for children to do jury duty, yes it is, yeah, 545 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: But the distinction was that it was women specifically that 546 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: were designated as doing the child care caregiving. Now, the 547 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: general consensus is that women has been traded for person 548 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: who is the primary caregiver to a child six years 549 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: or younger, which people around me when they were being 550 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: interviewed did use to say, I can't do jerry duty quote. 551 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: In criminal cases, research confirms that a jurors gender is 552 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: associated with different views of defendant culpability and victim blameworthiness 553 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: in sexual assault and child sexual abuse trials, resulting in 554 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: distinct judgments in those cases. This distinction also emerges in 555 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: capital cases. Women as a group are significantly less likely 556 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: than men as a group to support the death penalty, 557 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: which I have to say, before this started, I was 558 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: told the death penalty is not on the table. 559 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 2: But they did they do a plea deal. Well, they 560 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 2: could have do a plea deal like that interesting just 561 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 2: the level of. 562 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: Crime, because I think they had a question on there 563 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: that was they had a bunch of things that were like, 564 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: I'm just opposed to this, like in general, and one 565 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: of them was like, are you opposed to the death penalty? 566 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: So I think they're saying like, it's not you can't 567 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: get out of it that way. 568 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 2: Or or did they tell them people who were like 569 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 2: I love the death penalty, like, calm down, this is 570 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 2: not an option. Don't get too excited. 571 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: I think it's There were a bunch of things where 572 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: I was like, I think there are two signs of 573 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: his coins and one of them in here. It was 574 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: a there was a lot of questions about people and 575 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: their thoughts about guns, but they picked a lot of 576 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: people who were very pro gun. I'm sure, yes, yes, 577 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: I will talk about it. I'll wait for my mundane, 578 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: but I will talk about it. I will say, like 579 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: when I was looking at you know, present day issues 580 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: other than are just justice system. But one thing I 581 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: found when it came to present day issues with women. 582 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,959 Speaker 1: I mean every article was like, what should you wear 583 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,439 Speaker 1: as a woman to Jerry duty? Really what is appropriate 584 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 1: to wear? And I was like, wow, there are dudes 585 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: in shorts and hats. 586 00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: I've seen many men in their like literal house farm 587 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 2: outfits and a hat and they're working boots, which is fine, 588 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm like, why are 589 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 2: you telling women to dress up? Yes, men don't like 590 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: feel the need to do that either. A lot of 591 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 2: them wear caps, and I don't think that's allowed. Like 592 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 2: I legitimately, in a court room they tell you cannot 593 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 2: have hats. 594 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: Yes, I will say they took an off for the 595 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: court room, but there were many hats. I had to 596 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: get out my old clothes. I had to find some clothes. Man, 597 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: I had to put on some real clothes. I had 598 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: to look presentable. It's the whole thing. But also I 599 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: just get fancy. 600 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 2: So when I worked in court for our trials, I 601 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: can't have to be all decked out like we would 602 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 2: get all that. And that was for a little while. 603 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 2: We were totally couldn't wear pants and we had to 604 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: wear any hose. Yeah, like that was recently all the 605 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 2: last ten years because I worked a lot into juvenile court. 606 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: This is a juvenile car court, not even supreme court, 607 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,959 Speaker 2: not even like the level of felony courts. It's weird 608 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: of what they expected like that was not necessarily court 609 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: because court people, because there was different types of workers. 610 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 2: Court workers sometimes just gave no craps that were like, nah, 611 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 2: I'm in here every day, you can't make me work? 612 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, Well I would love Well, we'll talk 613 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: about this and our upcoming. 614 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 2: I love that word teasing this. 615 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, please listen to it because I got a lot 616 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: to say. But one of the things that there were 617 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: I was nervous for a lot of reasons. But I 618 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: was really really nervous because there were I want to say, 619 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: four or five dudes that were just like I just 620 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: felt like they were gonna yell at me if I 621 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: disagreed with them. But I was very I was so concerned. 622 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: I was like, this is a responsibility, and I have 623 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: all these worries and all of this. It worked out fine, good, 624 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: but but there were a couple of comments that I 625 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,399 Speaker 1: was like, we would not get along. But one of them, 626 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: I think he was trying to make white of the mood, 627 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,399 Speaker 1: because again it was a murder trial. He said, one 628 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: of the I learned so much. They brought in like 629 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: a forensic expert and a cell phone data expert and 630 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: all this stuff, but they bought in a medical examiner. 631 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: And he was like, she was so hot, she was smoking, 632 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, she was talking 633 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: about like a dead body man. 634 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 2: And all he was thinking was yeah, girl, I hit that. 635 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: It's like, wow, okay. 636 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,399 Speaker 2: I need to know people how people reacted though to that, 637 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 2: Like then people were like. 638 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was it was an awkward like let's move 639 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: on quickly. 640 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 2: I hope you learned a lesson. I hope you learned 641 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:54,439 Speaker 2: a lesson, dude. 642 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: Well then he was trying to be like she had 643 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: a rash, she was nervous, and people were like, she 644 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: probably would. 645 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 2: Like it is one of even with like a case 646 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 2: with barely anybody in the courtroom to testify, is unnerving 647 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 2: and even if you are especially because you never know. 648 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 2: Some course allow you to have documentations so you can 649 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 2: read it off. Some will not, some will take it 650 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 2: from you and use it as evidence, Like you have 651 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 2: so many stipulations that you don't understand, and different courtrooms 652 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 2: do different things. Like I remember having to go into 653 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 2: different courtrooms because I would work for the entire state 654 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 2: and I have to go testify or something, and I'd 655 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 2: be like, hey, what does what do they do? They're like, yeah, 656 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 2: you can't. You can have notes, but that's it. Don't 657 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: take anything that can be submitted to court because they 658 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,839 Speaker 2: will take it. And I was like, oh, okay, let 659 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 2: me know because like they and it's to memorize and 660 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 2: to know you have to do this and that there 661 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 2: is a chance that if you get it wrong, they're 662 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 2: gonna say you're persuring and we'll get arrested. 663 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: I would be terrified. I would have been terrified. And 664 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: it was like there were so many things that I 665 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: think people see on TV and they were trying to 666 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: use it. It's like, see she's something's off and I'm like, no, 667 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: she's nervous. They're just nervous. She's just nervous. 668 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 2: Okay, Unludy, you were there to be the voice of reasons, like, 669 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 2: this is not a drama. 670 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: They're not actors. 671 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 2: This is what happens, what would behoove her why? But 672 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 2: but the thing about this is is that whoever the 673 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 2: witnesses for the person who's coming to do like the 674 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 2: cross examination. They will use that and say that I 675 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 2: think this is why because it does work. I have 676 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 2: had that where they come at me once again and 677 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 2: they'd be like, you said this earlier, and it was 678 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 2: ten o'clock at one point, now it's at ten thirty. 679 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 2: What is it? Are you lying to us? And I'm like, 680 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 2: oh my god, I said around, I don't know. And 681 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 2: then they will ask you that same question repeatedly, like 682 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 2: this is true that this has happened, where they will 683 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 2: ask you the same question repeatedly, thinking that they can 684 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 2: trip you up. Yeah, and then that can get a 685 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:04,919 Speaker 2: little bit of doubt and that's enough. 686 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Oh my gosh, I can't wait to talk 687 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: about this. 688 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 2: I can't wait about it either. I want you to 689 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 2: talk about this. 690 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: This had been this case had been tried before, and 691 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: the previous jury was a hung jury. Oh and it 692 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: was the complete opposite of what we did, which shows 693 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: you like what the lawyers took and they were like 694 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: adaptor yum. But one of the things is like the 695 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: things they say at the top, their opening statements and 696 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: closing arguments are not true. They don't have to be 697 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 1: true but people take it as must be true. They're 698 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: saying it with authority. Yeah, nope. 699 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 2: If they do it with a love, enough drama and 700 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 2: enough conviction and they don't have to say that, they 701 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 2: will be like, but imagine if you did this and 702 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 2: this was you, would you like they do? They like that, 703 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 2: they mess with you real hard. 704 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's when, like I said earlier, the judge 705 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: was like, it's up to the jury. I hope you 706 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: took notes up, I ohn, No, I did take a 707 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: lot of notes. 708 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 2: Sorry, I got him. Are you the foreman? No? 709 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: The foreman actually was really cool. I didn't think i'd 710 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: like him. I've yeah, I'll talk about it. But he 711 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: looks like our friend Ramsey. He looked exactly like, oh, 712 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: throw the game off. Every time I saw him, I 713 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: was like, and he said he gets that all the time, 714 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: that he looks like somebody. 715 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 2: Somebody that's funny. 716 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: Yes, anyway, okay there. It was another thing I saw 717 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: when I was researching, like current women on jury duty issues, 718 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: what title does she answer to? What title does she use? 719 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: Which I think is just like, let's retire that whole 720 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: thing conversation. Here's a quote. Anne Eisenberg studied thirty five 721 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: South Carolina death penalty trials and found that the defense 722 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 1: used forty of its strikes on women and fifty nine 723 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: of its strikes on men, whereas the prosecution used fifty 724 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: nine of its women and forty one of it strikes 725 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 1: on men, a statistically significant difference. A follow up study 726 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: with more detailed information about the race and gender of 727 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: the prospective jures likewise confirmed these gendered patterns and prosecutors 728 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:22,400 Speaker 1: and defense attorneys preemptory challenges. So yeah, that is still ongoing. 729 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: I will say I also saw things. I won't say 730 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: I'm ashamed, but I will admit I felt it. That 731 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: was about like how to stand up against angry men 732 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,359 Speaker 1: if you disagree with them in this setting, and it 733 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: got heated. This got heated, really. Yes, we deliberated for 734 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,360 Speaker 1: seven hours and there were raised voices. 735 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 2: They were able to give evidence and witness within like 736 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 2: three days. Yeah, that's quick. That's a lot quicker than 737 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 2: I thought they would have. 738 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: It kind of had one main piece of evidence and 739 00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 1: then no no real witnesses other than they brought in 740 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 1: the state had to bring in the experts to enter 741 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 1: into evidence. That this happened in Fulton County oh okay, 742 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: but I'll go all into it. Please check out my 743 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: upcoming Monday mini. But yeah, pretty much. They did the 744 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: evidence fairly quickly. It was like two days. It was 745 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,240 Speaker 1: two and a half. It was one and a half days, 746 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 1: and then we deliberated for one and a half day, 747 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: maybe more than that, but it got heated. It was well. 748 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: I was really glad though, because it was mostly women 749 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: that were really like, I strongly believe this, and it 750 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: was women from all different backgrounds, and so I was 751 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 1: really glad to have that because honestly, I thought I 752 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: was gonna have to be the only one that's like, 753 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 1: because people joke about Jerry duty, you know, they don't 754 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: want to have it. They just want to get done. 755 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: It's a big inconvenience, which it is. Yeah, get paid 756 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: twenty five dollars a day, right, But I was worried 757 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: that I was gonna be the only one that's like, no, 758 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not willing to just say right 759 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: whatever to get out to give a verdict. 760 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 2: I want. It's not gonna go with the majority just 761 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:15,280 Speaker 2: to get this up away. 762 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: Yes, what you were not allowed to do, but I'm 763 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: certain people do it. And in fact, we got roll 764 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,319 Speaker 1: called at the end where you have to say, hey, no, 765 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:23,719 Speaker 1: I did. 766 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:24,760 Speaker 2: But they did a polling. 767 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, they did a polling where the prosecution asked like, 768 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,799 Speaker 1: did you come to this conclusion? Do you agree with 769 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,960 Speaker 1: this conclusion? Like, there's no doubt we all had to 770 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: do it. So I'm really glad there were people that 771 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: were very like, no, let's talk this out, and honestly 772 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: everybody was, but I'm glad that they were, Like they 773 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: were like two or three there were like three or 774 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: four women I will say that were really and we 775 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: had them on opposite sides. It was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 776 00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: But okay, So there are obviously still a lot of 777 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,400 Speaker 1: issues with Jerry Duty. One of the big things I 778 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: ran into are courts grappling with non binary, trans and 779 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: gender non conforming folks. How does that look? And then obviously, 780 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 1: as we've been saying throughout, racism just in the system. 781 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: But I do think this experience for me was really enlightening, 782 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,400 Speaker 1: and I personally had a really good experience with my 783 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,799 Speaker 1: fellow jurors where we did that's good. We did talk 784 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 1: it out, even though it was really traumatic, but we 785 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:43,839 Speaker 1: did talk it out, and I do uh well, I 786 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: feel like it was a really harsh punishment and I'm 787 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: not sure how I feel about that, but I'll talk 788 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: about that my Monday minie. So yeah, I mean, I 789 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,439 Speaker 1: guess next time, you know, if you get jerry duty 790 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,919 Speaker 1: or you get summoned, think about this another the fight 791 00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 1: people have had to get on jury's. It doesn't mean 792 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,840 Speaker 1: there are not issues, because there are. And I believe 793 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 1: our other podcast stuff you should know and stuff you 794 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: missed in his new class. I've done episodes about some 795 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 1: of those issues. So I'm not saying those don't exist, 796 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 1: because they do. But people did fight for this right, 797 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 1: and it is important to have a diverse jury because 798 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm telling you one guy he was like, well dudes, 799 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:28,680 Speaker 1: just do that, and all the women were like, that's 800 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:29,240 Speaker 1: not a defense. 801 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 2: He actually said that out loud. 802 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,560 Speaker 1: He said it out loud. So it is important to 803 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 1: have those different all those perspectives, and especially for more 804 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: marginalized compunities to have those perspectives. But anyway, look forward 805 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 1: to our Monday minywhere Smith and I will talk about 806 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:55,240 Speaker 1: our experiences. But in the meantime, if you have ever 807 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: served on jury judy, or if you have any experiences 808 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,759 Speaker 1: working in this kind of setting. Please let us know. 809 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: You can email us stuff and you mom Stuff at 810 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,840 Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at 811 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff 812 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: I've Never Told us You. We have a tea pup 813 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 1: a store, and we have a book you can get 814 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 1: wherever you get in your books. Thanks as always to 815 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,040 Speaker 1: our super producer Christina or executive producer and our contributed 816 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: to Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for listening. 817 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told You is production of iHeart Radio. 818 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, you can check out the 819 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 820 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,799 Speaker 1: your favorite ships.