1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,396 --> 00:00:24,156 Speaker 2: In his best known work The Uses of Enchantment, the 3 00:00:24,276 --> 00:00:29,236 Speaker 2: late Austrian psychoanalyst Bruno Bedelheim asks us to consider the 4 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:36,036 Speaker 2: genius of the children's tail. Three little pigs. You remember, 5 00:00:36,076 --> 00:00:36,956 Speaker 2: three little pigs. 6 00:00:37,956 --> 00:00:41,596 Speaker 3: The first little pig was very lazy. He didn't want 7 00:00:41,596 --> 00:00:44,276 Speaker 3: to work at all, and he built his house out 8 00:00:44,276 --> 00:00:48,316 Speaker 3: of straw. The second little pig worked a little bit harder, 9 00:00:48,756 --> 00:00:51,516 Speaker 3: but he was somewhat lazy too, and he built his 10 00:00:51,556 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 3: house out of sticks. Then they sang and danced and 11 00:00:55,756 --> 00:00:59,196 Speaker 3: played together the rest of the day. The third little 12 00:00:59,196 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 3: pig worked hard all day and built his house with bricks. 13 00:01:03,916 --> 00:01:07,596 Speaker 3: It was a sturdy house, complete with a fine fireplace 14 00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 3: and chimney. It looked like it could withstand the strongest winds. 15 00:01:14,516 --> 00:01:17,316 Speaker 2: The wicked wolf visits the first pig with the straw 16 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 2: house and says he's going to eat him. Not by 17 00:01:21,396 --> 00:01:24,196 Speaker 2: the hair on my chinny chin chin, the little pig says. 18 00:01:24,716 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 2: The wolf replies, I'll huff and i'll puff, and I'll 19 00:01:28,316 --> 00:01:32,236 Speaker 2: blow your house down, And so he does easily. The 20 00:01:32,276 --> 00:01:35,156 Speaker 2: little pig escapes to his brother's house, the house built 21 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:38,876 Speaker 2: of sticks. The wolf gives chase blows that one down too. 22 00:01:39,196 --> 00:01:42,356 Speaker 2: Then the two little pigs escaped to their big brother's house, 23 00:01:42,516 --> 00:01:44,916 Speaker 2: the one made of bricks, and this stam the wicked 24 00:01:44,916 --> 00:01:46,596 Speaker 2: wolf can't blow it down. 25 00:01:47,796 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 3: The wolf danced about with rage and swore he would 26 00:01:51,356 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 3: come down the chimney and eat up the little pig 27 00:01:54,196 --> 00:01:57,756 Speaker 3: for his supper. But while he was climbing onto the roof, 28 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:01,676 Speaker 3: the little pig made up a blazing fire and put 29 00:02:01,716 --> 00:02:05,196 Speaker 3: on a big pot full of water to boil. Then, 30 00:02:05,836 --> 00:02:08,476 Speaker 3: just as the wolf was coming down the chimney the 31 00:02:08,516 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 3: little piggy he pulled off the lid and plump in 32 00:02:12,796 --> 00:02:15,316 Speaker 3: fell the wolf into the scolding water. 33 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:22,476 Speaker 2: Oh yes, the three little pigs. I'll huff and I'll puff. 34 00:02:22,836 --> 00:02:26,556 Speaker 2: Everyone knows the story of the three little Pigs. Bruno 35 00:02:26,596 --> 00:02:30,916 Speaker 2: Bettelheim's question was what works in a fairy tale the 36 00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:35,276 Speaker 2: three little pigs works, and what doesn't work? The fable 37 00:02:35,396 --> 00:02:38,756 Speaker 2: of the Ants and the Grasshopper. Do you even remember it? 38 00:02:38,996 --> 00:02:44,796 Speaker 2: I don't think you do. Here's the story. The ants 39 00:02:44,916 --> 00:02:48,556 Speaker 2: spend the summer working NonStop, preparing for winter. Meanwhile, the 40 00:02:48,596 --> 00:02:54,396 Speaker 2: grasshopper fretters away his summer entertaining himself, and now he's hungry. 41 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:56,996 Speaker 3: What cried the ants? 42 00:02:57,036 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 4: In surprise. 43 00:02:58,436 --> 00:03:02,236 Speaker 3: Haven't you stored anything away for the winter? What in 44 00:03:02,276 --> 00:03:06,276 Speaker 3: the world were you doing or last summer? I didn't 45 00:03:06,316 --> 00:03:10,196 Speaker 3: have time to store up any food, wine, the grasshopper. 46 00:03:10,876 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 3: I was so busy making music that before I knew it, 47 00:03:15,076 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 3: the summer was gone. The ants shrug their shoulders in disgust. 48 00:03:21,236 --> 00:03:22,076 Speaker 3: Making music? 49 00:03:22,236 --> 00:03:22,756 Speaker 5: Were you? 50 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 3: They cried very well, Now dance and they turned their 51 00:03:28,396 --> 00:03:31,996 Speaker 3: backs on the grasshopper and went on with their work. 52 00:03:33,996 --> 00:03:37,436 Speaker 2: That's it. That's the end of the story. Now, this 53 00:03:37,476 --> 00:03:40,316 Speaker 2: one has the same basic lesson as three little pigs. 54 00:03:41,036 --> 00:03:44,796 Speaker 2: Life favors the hard working and the prepared. Both stories 55 00:03:44,836 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 2: have cute animals who just want to have fun. Little 56 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 2: pigs grasshoppers playing music. And the story of the Ants 57 00:03:51,876 --> 00:03:55,196 Speaker 2: and the Grasshopper should be lodged in our memories because 58 00:03:55,196 --> 00:03:58,716 Speaker 2: it was written by Aesop of Aesop's Fables, the same 59 00:03:58,796 --> 00:04:03,436 Speaker 2: legend who brought us the Tortoise and the hair pedigreed storytelling. 60 00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:07,916 Speaker 2: But we don't remember it. Why because we love the 61 00:04:07,916 --> 00:04:11,596 Speaker 2: grasshopper and the ASoP just throws them to the ants. 62 00:04:16,276 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 2: Deep into my investigation of the Little Mermaid, I realized 63 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 2: that we make Asop's mistake all the time. We don't 64 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:27,036 Speaker 2: understand how seriously children take their fairy tales. We think 65 00:04:27,076 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 2: we can satisfy them with a few sternly worded lessons. 66 00:04:30,756 --> 00:04:33,836 Speaker 2: Oh but we can't. Think of the three little pigs. 67 00:04:34,236 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 2: There's a chase scene, some trash talking, not by the 68 00:04:37,196 --> 00:04:39,916 Speaker 2: hair of my chinny chin chin, no fewer than three 69 00:04:39,996 --> 00:04:43,396 Speaker 2: home invasions, and a brilliant plot twist with the vat 70 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:45,876 Speaker 2: of boiling water at the bottom of the chimney, just 71 00:04:45,956 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 2: waiting for the impetuous wolf. 72 00:04:48,876 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 3: So the little Piggy puts on the cover again, boil 73 00:04:52,476 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 3: the wolf up, and the three little piggies ate him 74 00:04:55,676 --> 00:04:56,236 Speaker 3: for supper. 75 00:04:57,316 --> 00:05:03,196 Speaker 2: You swing at the pigs, you best not miss. My 76 00:05:03,276 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 2: name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my 77 00:05:06,236 --> 00:05:12,116 Speaker 2: podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is part two 78 00:05:12,276 --> 00:05:16,516 Speaker 2: of my three part forensic analysis of the blockbuster princess 79 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:23,236 Speaker 2: movie The Little Mermaid. In part one, we heard from 80 00:05:23,276 --> 00:05:26,636 Speaker 2: a law professor who argues that the Disney company fumbled 81 00:05:26,636 --> 00:05:28,836 Speaker 2: the tale of the young mermaid who wanted to trade 82 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:32,396 Speaker 2: her fins for feet. In this episode, I want to 83 00:05:32,436 --> 00:05:36,236 Speaker 2: talk about the theory of fairy tales, why they matter, 84 00:05:36,996 --> 00:05:40,916 Speaker 2: why they work and why sometimes they don't work at all. 85 00:05:44,716 --> 00:05:48,236 Speaker 2: The closest modern equivalent we have to Bruno Bettelheim is 86 00:05:48,356 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 2: a literary scholar named Angus Fletcher. Fletcher is not a 87 00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 2: psychoanalyst like Bettelheim was. He trained as a neuroscientist. Are 88 00:05:56,596 --> 00:05:59,636 Speaker 2: you the first person in history to leave neuroscience to 89 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 2: get a PhD English? 90 00:06:00,916 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 6: Yes? Tragically I went in exactly the opposite direction from 91 00:06:03,836 --> 00:06:07,156 Speaker 6: everybody else. And this is why I am bankrupts. Everyone's saying, 92 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:10,716 Speaker 6: went from English to neuroscience, And yes, I like that. 93 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:13,556 Speaker 2: I am somewhere. Your parents are just like crying. This 94 00:06:13,676 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: is like definiliating. 95 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 6: It's even worse because you can't tell because I've lost 96 00:06:17,116 --> 00:06:18,716 Speaker 6: my accent. But I'm an immigrant and so you know, 97 00:06:18,756 --> 00:06:22,756 Speaker 6: like all immigrant families, my parents are just obsessed with science, 98 00:06:22,796 --> 00:06:25,316 Speaker 6: and they wanted me to be a doctor, and you know, 99 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 6: they were disappointed when I only went into science. But 100 00:06:27,236 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 6: they're like, well, I guess that's okay. And then you know, poetry. 101 00:06:29,316 --> 00:06:31,756 Speaker 6: It's humiliating for them. You know, they've disowned me. 102 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:35,236 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to Fletcher because of a book 103 00:06:35,236 --> 00:06:38,916 Speaker 2: he wrote called wonder Works. The twenty five most powerful 104 00:06:38,956 --> 00:06:42,116 Speaker 2: inventions in the history of literature, which is this strange 105 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,916 Speaker 2: and captivating work, full of twists and turns and fascinating asides. 106 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 2: It's the kind of book that makes you want to 107 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:50,876 Speaker 2: talk to the author just to make sure there aren't 108 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 2: more bits of wisdom out there to be had. Anyway, 109 00:06:54,316 --> 00:06:57,236 Speaker 2: I'm on the phone with Angus, struggling to understand what 110 00:06:57,396 --> 00:07:01,716 Speaker 2: went wrong with the Little Mermaid, and Angus, since he's Angus, says, oh, 111 00:07:02,076 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 2: the thing you have to understand is that there's actually 112 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,876 Speaker 2: two categories of fairy tales, the original kind and the 113 00:07:08,956 --> 00:07:12,356 Speaker 2: modern kind. And then Angus starts talking about some of 114 00:07:12,396 --> 00:07:15,996 Speaker 2: the earliest recorded fairy tales, like the stories collected by 115 00:07:15,996 --> 00:07:21,996 Speaker 2: the sixteenth century Italian writer Giovanni Straparola. Straparola published a 116 00:07:22,036 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 2: two volume set known as The Facetious Knights. Puss in 117 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:27,436 Speaker 2: Boots is a Straparola story. 118 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:30,556 Speaker 6: So yeah, So there are these two amazing things that 119 00:07:30,596 --> 00:07:33,076 Speaker 6: we start to see in Straparola's fairy tales, which again 120 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:34,996 Speaker 6: are the kind of most ancient ones we have written down. 121 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:37,636 Speaker 6: The first is that good luck happens to people who 122 00:07:37,676 --> 00:07:40,876 Speaker 6: are fools, so a fool might find a lucky fish 123 00:07:40,996 --> 00:07:42,716 Speaker 6: and by a fool, I mean an actual fool, I 124 00:07:42,756 --> 00:07:45,636 Speaker 6: mean somebody who is so dense in the story that 125 00:07:45,676 --> 00:07:48,116 Speaker 6: he says terrible, rude things to everybody he meets. Is 126 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:51,156 Speaker 6: an inept fisher person has no apparent positive qualities whatsoever, 127 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:53,636 Speaker 6: and then ends up a prince. And it can go 128 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:56,276 Speaker 6: even further than that. It can happen to people who 129 00:07:56,316 --> 00:07:56,836 Speaker 6: are bad. 130 00:07:57,716 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 2: A classic example of this kind of story is an 131 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:03,876 Speaker 2: ancient fairy tale about a girl named Adam and Tina. 132 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:09,996 Speaker 2: Adam and Tina's family is starving and she's sent by 133 00:08:09,996 --> 00:08:12,516 Speaker 2: her older sister to buy food at the market. 134 00:08:13,316 --> 00:08:16,596 Speaker 6: Adamantina goes to the market with the family's last money 135 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:19,396 Speaker 6: and does she buy food. No, she makes a whimsical 136 00:08:19,396 --> 00:08:21,996 Speaker 6: purchase of a doll that she sees because she happens 137 00:08:22,036 --> 00:08:24,356 Speaker 6: to like this doll, and she takes this doll home 138 00:08:24,396 --> 00:08:26,916 Speaker 6: with her, and her older sister is so distraught that 139 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:29,116 Speaker 6: she has this breakdown. Is oh, my goodness, this is 140 00:08:29,156 --> 00:08:30,876 Speaker 6: the end of the family. You have ruined the family. 141 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:33,956 Speaker 6: It's all over and lo and behold, the doll turns 142 00:08:33,956 --> 00:08:36,556 Speaker 6: out to be a magic doll, and it spits forth money, 143 00:08:36,996 --> 00:08:39,116 Speaker 6: and this is the beginning of a series of just bizarre, 144 00:08:39,116 --> 00:08:42,676 Speaker 6: improbable happenings that occur in the story, and adam Antina 145 00:08:42,756 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 6: does not deserve them at all. She's not virtuous, she's 146 00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:46,676 Speaker 6: not smart, she's not nice, she's not kind. 147 00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:48,156 Speaker 2: The doll is a lottery ticket. 148 00:08:48,276 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 6: The doll is a lottery ticket. That's exactly right. 149 00:08:50,556 --> 00:08:56,556 Speaker 2: Yes, Fletcher calls these kinds of stories fairytale twist stories. 150 00:08:57,436 --> 00:09:00,316 Speaker 2: If you look at all the stories collected by Straparola, 151 00:09:00,436 --> 00:09:05,156 Speaker 2: they almost always end with fairytale twists. For thousands of years, 152 00:09:05,396 --> 00:09:08,836 Speaker 2: people sat around the fire and listened to storytellers, And 153 00:09:09,196 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 2: what are the narratives that survived the evolution of centuries 154 00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:15,436 Speaker 2: Stories in which heroes did not deserve their fate. 155 00:09:18,236 --> 00:09:24,356 Speaker 6: Audiences wanted to believe that life could suddenly go from 156 00:09:24,516 --> 00:09:25,076 Speaker 6: bad to good. 157 00:09:26,116 --> 00:09:30,196 Speaker 2: It's not simply that life could suddenly go from there 158 00:09:30,236 --> 00:09:32,636 Speaker 2: could be a sudden twist. Is that the twist would 159 00:09:32,636 --> 00:09:37,396 Speaker 2: be unrelated to the disposition and character of the protagonist. 160 00:09:37,596 --> 00:09:40,596 Speaker 2: That I didn't have to meet a certain qualification to 161 00:09:40,636 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 2: be eligible for this good fortune. It was bestowed on anyone. 162 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:45,196 Speaker 6: Yeah. 163 00:09:46,036 --> 00:09:49,156 Speaker 2: But then in the seventeenth century, fairy tales took a 164 00:09:49,236 --> 00:09:53,316 Speaker 2: dramatic turn. The key figure was the French writer Charles Perrault. 165 00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:55,836 Speaker 2: He read the fairy tales that had been collected by 166 00:09:55,876 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 2: earlier writers and loved them wanted to share them with 167 00:09:59,076 --> 00:10:02,716 Speaker 2: the world. But Peraut thought they needed a little tweaking. 168 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:05,836 Speaker 6: He said, you know what, these tales are so primitive. 169 00:10:06,316 --> 00:10:09,556 Speaker 6: They were written before the age of reason. They were 170 00:10:09,556 --> 00:10:13,516 Speaker 6: written before the enlightenments, and reason tells us that all 171 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:17,476 Speaker 6: these instances in which good things are coming from bad 172 00:10:17,636 --> 00:10:21,236 Speaker 6: it can't happen because life follows this logic that's been 173 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 6: created by God. And I want these stories to instill that. 174 00:10:24,076 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 6: So I'm just going to make these changes. I'm going 175 00:10:26,356 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 6: to change it so that good things only happen to 176 00:10:28,916 --> 00:10:31,836 Speaker 6: good people, and bad things happen to bad people, and 177 00:10:31,876 --> 00:10:36,036 Speaker 6: so there's no more good happening to bad. There's only 178 00:10:36,076 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 6: good happening to good. 179 00:10:38,156 --> 00:10:41,996 Speaker 2: Fletcher calls these kinds of fairy tales poetic justice stories. 180 00:10:42,516 --> 00:10:46,316 Speaker 2: The classic example of this second type of story is Cinderella, 181 00:10:46,556 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 2: an ancient tale which Charles Perrault revised. 182 00:10:49,636 --> 00:10:49,876 Speaker 4: Later. 183 00:10:50,156 --> 00:10:52,116 Speaker 2: The brothers Grimm did their own version of the tale 184 00:10:52,156 --> 00:10:59,396 Speaker 2: in Germany. Here's how it begins, with our introduction to Cinderella. 185 00:10:59,836 --> 00:11:02,436 Speaker 1: The wife of a rich man fell sick, and when 186 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:05,196 Speaker 1: she felt that her end drew nigh, she called her 187 00:11:05,236 --> 00:11:08,756 Speaker 1: only daughter to her bedside and said, always be a 188 00:11:08,796 --> 00:11:11,396 Speaker 1: good girl, and I will look down from heaven and 189 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:14,916 Speaker 1: watch over you. Soon afterwards she shut her eyes and 190 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:18,156 Speaker 1: died and was buried in the garden. And the little 191 00:11:18,156 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 1: girl went every day to her grave and wept, and 192 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:23,876 Speaker 1: was always good and kind to honor her mother. 193 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:29,356 Speaker 2: Cinderella's father remarries. Cinderella gets an evil stepmother and two 194 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,876 Speaker 2: evil stepsisters, but no matter what they do to her, 195 00:11:33,556 --> 00:11:35,796 Speaker 2: Cinderella remains pious and good. 196 00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:40,876 Speaker 1: It happened once that her father was going to the 197 00:11:40,916 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 1: fair and asked his wife's daughters what he should bring 198 00:11:43,916 --> 00:11:49,076 Speaker 1: to them. Fine clothes, said the first. Pearls and diamonds, 199 00:11:49,596 --> 00:11:53,876 Speaker 1: said the second. Now child, said he to his own daughter, 200 00:11:54,196 --> 00:11:58,396 Speaker 1: what will you have the first brig Dear father, that 201 00:11:58,476 --> 00:12:00,956 Speaker 1: rubs against your hat on your way home, said she. 202 00:12:02,236 --> 00:12:05,476 Speaker 2: So the father brings the evil stepdaughters all manner of finery, 203 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:08,356 Speaker 2: and Cinderella gets as requested. 204 00:12:10,876 --> 00:12:13,196 Speaker 1: He gave it to his daughter. Then she took it 205 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: and went to her mother's grave and planted it there, 206 00:12:16,196 --> 00:12:19,836 Speaker 1: and cried so much that it was watered with her tears, 207 00:12:20,356 --> 00:12:23,156 Speaker 1: and there it grew and became a fine tree. 208 00:12:23,716 --> 00:12:27,956 Speaker 2: Oh, come on, Cinderella is an angel. And what happens 209 00:12:27,996 --> 00:12:31,316 Speaker 2: to this angel? You know the story? A magic bird 210 00:12:31,396 --> 00:12:33,916 Speaker 2: gives her a beautiful dress, and off she goes to 211 00:12:33,956 --> 00:12:37,156 Speaker 2: the ball. The handsome prince falls in love with its mysterious, 212 00:12:37,276 --> 00:12:40,956 Speaker 2: unknown beauty. She leaves behind her slipper. The prince says, 213 00:12:41,396 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 2: whosoever fits into the slipper will be his queen. Her 214 00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 2: evil stepsisters try to fit and fail. Cinderella tries it on, 215 00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 2: and it fits perfectly, and she lives happily ever after 216 00:12:55,436 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 2: virtue is rewarded. Meanwhile, what happens to her evil stepsisters? 217 00:13:02,676 --> 00:13:04,556 Speaker 1: When the wedding with the prince was to be held, 218 00:13:04,876 --> 00:13:08,116 Speaker 1: the two false sisters came, wanting to gain favor with 219 00:13:08,156 --> 00:13:10,476 Speaker 1: Cinderella to share her good fortune. 220 00:13:10,996 --> 00:13:15,516 Speaker 2: But they get attacked by pigeons that peck out their eyes. 221 00:13:16,316 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 1: And thus for their wickedness and falsehood, they were punished 222 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:22,036 Speaker 1: with blindness all their days. 223 00:13:24,036 --> 00:13:29,396 Speaker 2: That's poetic justice. Thus, for their wickedness they were punished. 224 00:13:42,716 --> 00:13:45,836 Speaker 2: The Cinderella story gets adapted for the screen by Walt 225 00:13:45,876 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 2: Disney in maybe the most famous of all of his 226 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:50,356 Speaker 2: animated movies. 227 00:13:51,596 --> 00:13:57,596 Speaker 5: The dream that you wish will come. 228 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:03,836 Speaker 2: True, but it's only the dreams and wishes of the beautiful, 229 00:14:03,996 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 2: angelic Cinderella that come true. With Cinderella, Disney went all 230 00:14:08,796 --> 00:14:10,356 Speaker 2: in on poetic. 231 00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:12,756 Speaker 6: Justice, the famous movie that so many of us saw 232 00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 6: as children, Cinderella, that rescued the Magic Kingdom from bankruptcy 233 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 6: and became the logo of Disney. And ever since then, 234 00:14:20,316 --> 00:14:23,916 Speaker 6: all of Disney's fairy tales have had that same story 235 00:14:23,996 --> 00:14:27,876 Speaker 6: model of good coming from good, or virtue rewarded or 236 00:14:27,956 --> 00:14:31,996 Speaker 6: poetic justice. It's this inheritance of the Enlightenment. 237 00:14:32,516 --> 00:14:35,236 Speaker 2: A few years ago, Angus Fletcher was approached to do 238 00:14:35,276 --> 00:14:39,676 Speaker 2: a project on measuring children's emotional reactions to the stories 239 00:14:39,716 --> 00:14:40,116 Speaker 2: they heard. 240 00:14:40,476 --> 00:14:43,556 Speaker 6: We actually have a technology here which can track how 241 00:14:43,676 --> 00:14:47,876 Speaker 6: interested kids as young as four are in things. You know, 242 00:14:47,876 --> 00:14:50,596 Speaker 6: if we have ten or twelve or fourteen kids enough 243 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 6: of arrange, we can actually tell you very specifically whether 244 00:14:53,676 --> 00:14:55,236 Speaker 6: kids like the ending or not and how much they 245 00:14:55,316 --> 00:14:57,436 Speaker 6: like it. But the overall thing is. 246 00:14:57,636 --> 00:15:00,476 Speaker 2: This eye tracking? Is this eye tracking stuff? How are 247 00:15:00,476 --> 00:15:00,916 Speaker 2: you doing that? 248 00:15:01,076 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 6: It's secret and I'm not kidding. 249 00:15:03,556 --> 00:15:07,276 Speaker 2: So Fletcher does his top secret analysis of little kids 250 00:15:07,316 --> 00:15:10,796 Speaker 2: watching Disney movies, and he thinks he knows what he's 251 00:15:10,836 --> 00:15:14,556 Speaker 2: going to find. The kids prefer Cinderella. They don't want 252 00:15:14,596 --> 00:15:17,636 Speaker 2: the moral anarchy of the fairy tale twist. And sure 253 00:15:17,716 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 2: enough the kids squeal with delight. They love the songs. 254 00:15:22,556 --> 00:15:26,036 Speaker 2: But then it all falls apart. There's a kind of 255 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:27,796 Speaker 2: post Disney hangover. 256 00:15:28,276 --> 00:15:30,756 Speaker 6: There's been this whole history of condemning Disney fairy tales 257 00:15:30,796 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 6: because they're not realistic, or because they advance kind of 258 00:15:34,356 --> 00:15:38,276 Speaker 6: stereotypes or kind of unrealistic expectations about what princesses should be, 259 00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:40,516 Speaker 6: and so on and so forth. But it turned out it 260 00:15:40,556 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 6: really wasn't any of those things that was going on. 261 00:15:42,756 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 6: It was the narrative structure. 262 00:15:44,636 --> 00:15:47,756 Speaker 2: The kids like the characters, the adventure, the humor, the 263 00:15:47,836 --> 00:15:50,116 Speaker 2: idea that mice and other animals could do all manner 264 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:53,676 Speaker 2: of cool things. But they struggled with the idea that 265 00:15:53,676 --> 00:15:57,996 Speaker 2: good always comes from good and bad from bad. Why 266 00:15:58,676 --> 00:16:02,556 Speaker 2: because your child is perfectly capable of extrapolating what all 267 00:16:02,636 --> 00:16:03,236 Speaker 2: this means. 268 00:16:06,116 --> 00:16:10,076 Speaker 6: What your brain processes is, well, bad things are happening 269 00:16:10,076 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 6: to me. Why are bad things happening to me? There 270 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:16,036 Speaker 6: happened to me clearly because I'm bad, and if bad 271 00:16:16,076 --> 00:16:18,716 Speaker 6: things happen to bad people and I'm bad, then worse 272 00:16:18,796 --> 00:16:20,636 Speaker 6: things are going to start to happen because there's no 273 00:16:20,676 --> 00:16:22,636 Speaker 6: way for me to turn this train around. And what 274 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 6: we see is that these stories generate what's called catastrophizing, 275 00:16:26,636 --> 00:16:28,916 Speaker 6: and catastrophizing is when you become convinced that there's no 276 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:32,756 Speaker 6: way to break the cycle of bad feeling. And this 277 00:16:32,876 --> 00:16:36,436 Speaker 6: is masked in Disney fairy tales because the immediate emotional 278 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 6: effect of watching a Disney story is to feel good, 279 00:16:39,356 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 6: is to feel happy because the ending is so sentimental 280 00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:44,436 Speaker 6: and so positive, but over time it has this corrosive 281 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:45,316 Speaker 6: negative effect. 282 00:16:48,276 --> 00:16:51,996 Speaker 2: Now, by contrast, what happens when a child hears a 283 00:16:51,996 --> 00:16:57,156 Speaker 2: fairy tale twist story. Those kinds of stories defeat catastrophizing. 284 00:16:57,516 --> 00:16:59,316 Speaker 6: They short circuit that, and they say, no, no, no, 285 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:02,916 Speaker 6: no no. Bad doesn't always come from bad, Good can 286 00:17:02,916 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 6: come from bad. Just relax. Life is not logical. 287 00:17:09,236 --> 00:17:13,676 Speaker 2: For fairytale twists to poetic justice. They prefer Adam and 288 00:17:13,716 --> 00:17:21,236 Speaker 2: Tina to Cinderella. Now, why does this matter to our 289 00:17:21,236 --> 00:17:25,436 Speaker 2: discussion of the Little Mermaid film? Because the Little Mermaid 290 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:30,036 Speaker 2: is poetic justice on steroids good things happen not just 291 00:17:30,116 --> 00:17:33,116 Speaker 2: to good people, but to rich and powerful and beautiful people, 292 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:35,996 Speaker 2: and bad things happen not just to bad people, but 293 00:17:36,236 --> 00:17:45,996 Speaker 2: ugly bad people. When Prince Eric wanted to claim his 294 00:17:46,036 --> 00:17:48,556 Speaker 2: beautiful bride, he got to take the law into his 295 00:17:48,596 --> 00:17:52,876 Speaker 2: own hands, become a vigilante kill Ursula in cold blood 296 00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:57,516 Speaker 2: with no legal consequences whatsoever, because he's a handsome prince, 297 00:17:57,996 --> 00:18:02,796 Speaker 2: no other reason. Handsome entitled Eric gets away with murder, 298 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:10,156 Speaker 2: and Ariel, our beautiful, spirited mermaid who wants to marry 299 00:18:10,156 --> 00:18:14,156 Speaker 2: a prince. She gets to marry a prince without really 300 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:16,636 Speaker 2: having to lift a finger. By the way, in the end, 301 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 2: Daddy does everything. 302 00:18:18,556 --> 00:18:22,676 Speaker 4: Oh then I guess there's just one problem left. 303 00:18:23,356 --> 00:18:25,116 Speaker 1: And what's that, your majesty? 304 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 6: How much I'm going to miss her? 305 00:18:29,956 --> 00:18:33,156 Speaker 2: Daddy gets at as golden trident and turns Ariel into 306 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:39,396 Speaker 2: a female human in a sparkly dress. This is unearned 307 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:43,836 Speaker 2: poetic justice. It's one percent poetic justice. I'm still waiting 308 00:18:43,876 --> 00:18:46,956 Speaker 2: for the Disney sequel where Ariel gets into Stanford as 309 00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:50,676 Speaker 2: a legacy admission after her dad endows the King Triton 310 00:18:50,796 --> 00:19:00,996 Speaker 2: Institute of Aquatic Governance. One of the things I realized 311 00:19:01,036 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 2: in talking to Angus Fletcher was how difficult it was 312 00:19:04,316 --> 00:19:08,156 Speaker 2: to make the transition from poetic justice thinking back to 313 00:19:08,276 --> 00:19:13,036 Speaker 2: fairytale twist, thinking it doesn't feel right. Bad must be 314 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:16,076 Speaker 2: met with bad so that good can be met with good. 315 00:19:16,556 --> 00:19:19,436 Speaker 6: It feels awfully wrote When you watch the movie, you 316 00:19:19,556 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 6: just feel from the beginning like you know what's going 317 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:21,516 Speaker 6: to happen. 318 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:27,556 Speaker 2: So Ursula has great power under the sea and decides 319 00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:29,036 Speaker 2: at the end of the movie that what she wants 320 00:19:29,076 --> 00:19:32,036 Speaker 2: to do is to disguise herself as Ariel and or 321 00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:36,356 Speaker 2: A as a beautiful princess and mary Eric right the prince. 322 00:19:36,756 --> 00:19:40,876 Speaker 2: But what if Eric is revealed to be actually kind 323 00:19:40,876 --> 00:19:45,756 Speaker 2: of dull and nasty, and so Ariel realizes, Oh, let 324 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:48,516 Speaker 2: her marry him, you know, if that's what you want. 325 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,036 Speaker 2: It turns out the guy's bit of a jerk. I 326 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:54,036 Speaker 2: wanted to give Angus my ideas for fixing the Little Mermaid, 327 00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:57,316 Speaker 2: but I was struggling. Or what if the idea of 328 00:19:57,316 --> 00:20:02,476 Speaker 2: the outside of the water. She loses her power, so 329 00:20:02,556 --> 00:20:07,796 Speaker 2: she becomes Eric's bride, but she is now just a 330 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:11,636 Speaker 2: normal person who's stripped of all of the because she's 331 00:20:11,756 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 2: chosen the terrestrial world over the underwater world. She's now 332 00:20:16,196 --> 00:20:20,556 Speaker 2: just an ordinary, hapless citizen. Now, I suppose what we're 333 00:20:20,596 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 2: doing there is we are we're giving a bad ending 334 00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:28,956 Speaker 2: to a bad person. But at least it's it's a 335 00:20:28,956 --> 00:20:30,236 Speaker 2: more interesting bad edding. 336 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:32,716 Speaker 6: I suppose, yes, it's more creative. 337 00:20:33,596 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 2: I hear a distinct lack of enthusiasm in Angus's voice. 338 00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 2: I don't know if there's any way not to. We 339 00:20:40,916 --> 00:20:43,836 Speaker 2: do have to kind of put Ursula in her place. 340 00:20:45,996 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 6: No, you do not. 341 00:20:47,996 --> 00:20:50,436 Speaker 2: I still couldn't get it out of my head that 342 00:20:50,556 --> 00:20:52,996 Speaker 2: bad had to come from bad. It was as if 343 00:20:53,116 --> 00:20:56,156 Speaker 2: everything Fletcher had tried to tell me had sailed right 344 00:20:56,196 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 2: over my head. That's how deeply embedded poetic justice is. 345 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:01,716 Speaker 2: It's in our bones. 346 00:21:02,516 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 6: I mean, we have the obsession in the moner world 347 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:05,436 Speaker 6: that somehow, if you do something bad, you have to 348 00:21:05,436 --> 00:21:07,316 Speaker 6: be punished for it. No, if you do something bad, 349 00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:08,796 Speaker 6: we just have to make sure you don't do that 350 00:21:08,836 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 6: bad thing again. It's rehabilitation, it's medicine. I mean, you know, 351 00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:15,156 Speaker 6: we don't. We don't punish diseases. We don't. You know, 352 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:17,196 Speaker 6: once we've removed cancer from the body, we don't. We 353 00:21:17,236 --> 00:21:19,036 Speaker 6: don't then send it to jail and punish it. 354 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 2: You know, it's just like we So you think we 355 00:21:20,556 --> 00:21:22,996 Speaker 2: should be able to we should fix her, Sila. 356 00:21:23,676 --> 00:21:25,676 Speaker 6: Well, I think we should just stop her from doing 357 00:21:25,676 --> 00:21:27,516 Speaker 6: whatever she's doing. We should have a conversation with her 358 00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:28,916 Speaker 6: about maybe why this isn't helpful. 359 00:21:32,316 --> 00:21:36,156 Speaker 2: Fletcher's point was that making Ursula bad and then punishing 360 00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:38,556 Speaker 2: her for her badness is what you do if you 361 00:21:38,596 --> 00:21:41,516 Speaker 2: don't care about the story you're telling. You don't think 362 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:44,436 Speaker 2: about the audience, the little girl who's trying to understand 363 00:21:44,476 --> 00:21:47,636 Speaker 2: the way life really works. No, you've turned into ASoP 364 00:21:47,956 --> 00:21:50,636 Speaker 2: who says there's a boring ant out there and a 365 00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:53,356 Speaker 2: grasshopper who wants to make music. And I'm sorry, but 366 00:21:53,436 --> 00:21:56,396 Speaker 2: that means the grasshopper has to starve to death. If 367 00:21:56,396 --> 00:21:59,276 Speaker 2: he were alive today, ASoP would have a bungalow on 368 00:21:59,356 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 2: the Disney lot. He'd be their rewrite. 369 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:01,756 Speaker 1: Man. 370 00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:07,716 Speaker 6: It's not just that I think that Disney has sent 371 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:09,476 Speaker 6: a lot of fairy tales in the world which have 372 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:13,196 Speaker 6: overall made us less happy. I think it's also that 373 00:22:13,236 --> 00:22:17,516 Speaker 6: they are a force against innovation and change and growth 374 00:22:17,596 --> 00:22:20,836 Speaker 6: in storytelling as a whole, and they are destroying our 375 00:22:20,876 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 6: capacity as a people to think of new directions and 376 00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:28,956 Speaker 6: new paths and new plots. I mean, my kids love 377 00:22:28,996 --> 00:22:32,036 Speaker 6: Disney plots. I'm not going to pretend it's like I've 378 00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:33,756 Speaker 6: some my manage to keep it out of my own house. 379 00:22:34,156 --> 00:22:37,876 Speaker 6: But you know, I mean, I really think that we 380 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:41,876 Speaker 6: have reached a point in our society where we're repeating 381 00:22:41,916 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 6: the error of the Enlightenments, and we're allowing this one 382 00:22:46,116 --> 00:22:48,636 Speaker 6: institution that thinks it knows the right way to do 383 00:22:48,716 --> 00:22:52,996 Speaker 6: things to crush out the basis of our nature, which 384 00:22:52,996 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 6: is creativity, change, spontaneity, and like you said, possibility. 385 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:03,476 Speaker 2: So I went back and watched The Little Mermaid again, 386 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:07,756 Speaker 2: only this time with Angus Fletcher's words ringing in my ears, 387 00:23:08,316 --> 00:23:22,436 Speaker 2: and I began to I think we can rescue this movie. 388 00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:25,876 Speaker 2: How old were you when you first saw Little Mermaid? 389 00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:26,876 Speaker 2: You saw this as a kid? 390 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I saw it as a kid, and it 391 00:23:30,196 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 5: was my favorite of all What the Princess? 392 00:23:33,196 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 6: Oh yeah? 393 00:23:34,316 --> 00:23:37,396 Speaker 2: I needed a screenwriter, a good one, to try their 394 00:23:37,396 --> 00:23:40,676 Speaker 2: hand at fixing the dumpster fire that was Disney's The 395 00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:44,956 Speaker 2: Little Mermaid, And I thought, why not Brit Marling, the 396 00:23:44,996 --> 00:23:48,876 Speaker 2: co creator with Zolbupmanglage, of one of my favorite TV 397 00:23:48,956 --> 00:23:52,836 Speaker 2: shows ever, The OA on Netflix. Britt Marling struck me 398 00:23:52,876 --> 00:23:55,076 Speaker 2: as the kind of person who could live inside the 399 00:23:55,116 --> 00:23:58,396 Speaker 2: imagination of young Ariel, our little mermaid who longs for 400 00:23:58,436 --> 00:23:59,236 Speaker 2: a better life. 401 00:23:59,876 --> 00:24:02,916 Speaker 7: I remember as a little girl, I used to not 402 00:24:02,956 --> 00:24:05,356 Speaker 7: only with the only song I still to this day 403 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:05,956 Speaker 7: know on the. 404 00:24:05,836 --> 00:24:08,556 Speaker 5: Piano is under the Sea really so I. 405 00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:10,276 Speaker 7: Can play that. I used to play that and sing 406 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:15,396 Speaker 7: that and charge people money to watch it. But also, Malcolm, 407 00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:19,836 Speaker 7: I used to tie my ankles with like sweat socks 408 00:24:20,236 --> 00:24:22,756 Speaker 7: and then jump into the pool so that I could, 409 00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:25,236 Speaker 7: you know, swim with my feet tied together like the 410 00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:26,356 Speaker 7: Little Mermaid. 411 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:28,476 Speaker 2: Where you you would get performed, you'd sing the song 412 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:30,956 Speaker 2: and get performances. But it was even to the point 413 00:24:30,996 --> 00:24:35,236 Speaker 2: where you thought there was something particularly alluring about the 414 00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 2: idea of being limited in the way that the Little 415 00:24:39,076 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 2: Mermaid was being legless. 416 00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:43,676 Speaker 7: Yeah, being legless. But I think it was what I 417 00:24:43,756 --> 00:24:48,756 Speaker 7: was attracted to was what how they positioned her in 418 00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:51,796 Speaker 7: the first fourth of the film, which is like she 419 00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:54,276 Speaker 7: was bold and fearless. 420 00:24:54,196 --> 00:24:57,076 Speaker 2: The first fourth of the film. Let's be clear, none 421 00:24:57,116 --> 00:25:00,076 Speaker 2: of us have any issues with the first fourth of 422 00:25:00,076 --> 00:25:00,516 Speaker 2: the film. 423 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 7: There was a shipwreck and she's just like jumping amongst 424 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:07,356 Speaker 7: the you know, flaming, falling logs. It was like there 425 00:25:07,436 --> 00:25:11,636 Speaker 7: was no other little prince being portrayed like that, Like 426 00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:15,916 Speaker 7: snow White, you know, and Sleeping Beauty weren't performing those 427 00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 7: kinds of acts of heroicism. But then it's interesting that, 428 00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:23,316 Speaker 7: like when I would play Ariel as a little girl, 429 00:25:23,356 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 7: in my mind, it was only the phase in which 430 00:25:26,716 --> 00:25:30,356 Speaker 7: she was a fish, because the moment she got legs, 431 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:33,796 Speaker 7: she loses all her agency. She's just sitting around waiting 432 00:25:33,796 --> 00:25:34,436 Speaker 7: to be kissed. 433 00:25:34,716 --> 00:25:39,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're absolutely right, that's what's so. I mean, 434 00:25:39,436 --> 00:25:42,316 Speaker 2: I never saw it as a kid. I only saw 435 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 2: it two weeks ago as an adult, and you know, 436 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:51,116 Speaker 2: I was, I have to say, mortified by what happened 437 00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:55,796 Speaker 2: to me. I just like I flabbergasted. She disappears, she disappears, 438 00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:58,236 Speaker 2: she stopped, She just disappears, and all she does is 439 00:25:58,276 --> 00:26:06,436 Speaker 2: bat her eyelashes at this dumb prince. Disney entranced the 440 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,836 Speaker 2: young rip Marling. They owned her imagination. She was in 441 00:26:09,836 --> 00:26:12,516 Speaker 2: love with Ariel. She was tying her legs together with 442 00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 2: tube socks and singing under the sea at the piano. 443 00:26:16,036 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 2: And then what did Disney do They gave up on her, 444 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,076 Speaker 2: They lost her, They abandoned her with a plot that 445 00:26:22,116 --> 00:26:26,716 Speaker 2: doesn't even do poetic justice. Justice we are supposed to 446 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:29,356 Speaker 2: believe this is a girl who is a young girl 447 00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:33,596 Speaker 2: who is openly defying her father's wishes, and what is 448 00:26:33,636 --> 00:26:37,276 Speaker 2: the nature of her defiance pursuing and marrying a prince, 449 00:26:37,996 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 2: which is was exactly what her father, a king, what 450 00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 2: it for his daughter. It's like, it's as if one 451 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:49,196 Speaker 2: of the Kardashian's daughters was so angry at her parents 452 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:51,636 Speaker 2: that she went out and started a reality show. It's 453 00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:58,196 Speaker 2: not teenage defiance. That is that is joining the family business, 454 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:00,276 Speaker 2: joining the family business. 455 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:04,596 Speaker 5: Because you know, Trenton would be down in his palace 456 00:27:04,676 --> 00:27:06,956 Speaker 5: under the seat, rubbing his hands together and be like, hmm, 457 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 5: and now I can broke her a deal with the 458 00:27:09,396 --> 00:27:12,636 Speaker 5: men on land that we can consolidate our resources and 459 00:27:13,036 --> 00:27:16,716 Speaker 5: extract even more and take over more of the world together. 460 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, come on, we went back and forth, Britt and 461 00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:26,036 Speaker 2: I up and down. The movie just felt so slap dash, 462 00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:29,516 Speaker 2: as if it's creators thought that six year old girls 463 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:32,676 Speaker 2: just wouldn't care about whether the narrative made any sense. 464 00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:40,596 Speaker 2: What has Trenton done about the hundreds of souls entrapped 465 00:27:40,636 --> 00:27:44,356 Speaker 2: by Ursula. Nothing, nothing, until his daughter gets captured, and 466 00:27:44,356 --> 00:27:45,996 Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, he's like, that's so cool. 467 00:27:46,356 --> 00:27:48,356 Speaker 2: All of ad He's like, oh, this can't stand. Oh 468 00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:51,996 Speaker 2: I'm i gonna go and do battle. Like wait, what 469 00:27:52,116 --> 00:27:54,596 Speaker 2: kind of model of leadership is this? 470 00:27:55,236 --> 00:27:57,836 Speaker 7: That's wait, that's good because there you're bringing the classism 471 00:27:57,876 --> 00:28:02,116 Speaker 7: in again, right totally, because he doesn't care about everybody 472 00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 7: else who perished in Ursula's guard. 473 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:04,556 Speaker 2: He's the most. 474 00:28:04,596 --> 00:28:07,076 Speaker 5: He only cares if his princess ends up there. 475 00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:10,356 Speaker 2: I mean, this is this is the most appalling king 476 00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:13,636 Speaker 2: behavior that I've ever seen. There's no aspect of him 477 00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:16,516 Speaker 2: in any way fulfilling the functions of his office. 478 00:28:16,556 --> 00:28:16,756 Speaker 6: Here. 479 00:28:17,436 --> 00:28:21,916 Speaker 5: You could also ask yourself this too, Malcolm. Why are 480 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:25,836 Speaker 5: so many people leaving Triton's kingdom and going to Ursula 481 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:28,596 Speaker 5: in the first place? Why are there so many dissatisfied 482 00:28:28,636 --> 00:28:31,436 Speaker 5: citizens who are seeking out the help of the old 483 00:28:31,476 --> 00:28:35,356 Speaker 5: wise woman you know in yeah, traditionally in the woods, 484 00:28:35,356 --> 00:28:37,436 Speaker 5: but here deeper within the sea. 485 00:28:37,276 --> 00:28:40,716 Speaker 2: Like yeah, oh yeah, no, Actually, what's what's. 486 00:28:40,556 --> 00:28:43,396 Speaker 5: Rotten at the center of Triton's kingdom that he has 487 00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 5: so many unsatisfied more people. 488 00:28:45,796 --> 00:28:49,196 Speaker 2: A thousand of his subjects are enslaved, like half a 489 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 2: mile away, like. 490 00:28:50,476 --> 00:28:54,876 Speaker 7: Living as ghost algae, stuck to the forest floor, scrambling 491 00:28:54,996 --> 00:28:57,036 Speaker 7: for like you know, bits of human flesh. 492 00:28:57,116 --> 00:28:57,596 Speaker 4: It's set. 493 00:28:57,836 --> 00:28:58,756 Speaker 2: The man is appalling. 494 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 6: Yeah. 495 00:29:00,276 --> 00:29:03,516 Speaker 2: I could talk to Britt Marling forever, but I had 496 00:29:03,516 --> 00:29:06,876 Speaker 2: to find out would she join me? Would she lend 497 00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:09,956 Speaker 2: her magic to fixing the Little Mermaid? With the promise 498 00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:12,916 Speaker 2: of nothing except the kind of random minor celebrity that 499 00:29:12,996 --> 00:29:16,316 Speaker 2: comes from being a participant in a Revisions History episode. 500 00:29:16,956 --> 00:29:21,916 Speaker 2: No money, no swag, not even legal indemnification if the 501 00:29:21,916 --> 00:29:25,756 Speaker 2: Walt Disney Company comes after us. So let's talk about 502 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:29,836 Speaker 2: your homework. Hope it's not too onerous. I have sent you, 503 00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:32,996 Speaker 2: emailed you a copy of the script. 504 00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:35,076 Speaker 5: Oh wow, nice? 505 00:29:35,236 --> 00:29:40,476 Speaker 2: And all I want is not even a scene, a 506 00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:43,396 Speaker 2: piece of a scene. You don't have to resolve all 507 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:46,156 Speaker 2: these issues. I just want you to take a moment 508 00:29:46,236 --> 00:29:49,236 Speaker 2: in the script where there is an opportunity to do 509 00:29:49,276 --> 00:29:50,156 Speaker 2: something different. 510 00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:56,756 Speaker 7: Do you know that this is literally my favorite thing. 511 00:29:56,796 --> 00:29:59,076 Speaker 5: I can't honestly, I can't even accept this as a 512 00:29:59,116 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 5: homework assignment because this is just like pure pleasure unbridled 513 00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:07,436 Speaker 5: pleasure for me, she was all in. 514 00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:10,756 Speaker 2: I would not walk al on this journey, this road 515 00:30:10,796 --> 00:30:11,356 Speaker 2: of trials. 516 00:30:12,476 --> 00:30:15,356 Speaker 4: We're trying to give the feeling of what is possible 517 00:30:16,396 --> 00:30:19,276 Speaker 4: and then, well, you know, I'd like to see whether 518 00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:22,716 Speaker 4: we can create a ground swell, public ground swell among 519 00:30:22,796 --> 00:30:24,596 Speaker 4: nine year old girls in this country. 520 00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:29,836 Speaker 2: For at a better version of Little Mermaid, the real one. 521 00:30:30,036 --> 00:30:33,756 Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, yes, yes. 522 00:30:37,516 --> 00:30:41,396 Speaker 2: Next time on Revisions History, the Little Mermaid done. 523 00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 8: Right, Ariel, it was you, It was you all along duh. 524 00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,516 Speaker 2: Revision's History is produced by Emi La Belle, Lehman Gesteu 525 00:30:57,596 --> 00:31:01,196 Speaker 2: and Jacob Smith, with Eloise Linton and on a nine. 526 00:31:01,676 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 2: Our editor is Julia Barton. Original scoring by Luis Garra, 527 00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:10,076 Speaker 2: mastering by Flon Williams and engineering by Martin Gunzal. Fact 528 00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:14,116 Speaker 2: checking by Amy Gaines. Our voice actors are Paris Glasgow 529 00:31:14,276 --> 00:31:18,316 Speaker 2: and Melina Rose. Special thanks to the Pushkin Crew, Hathefan, 530 00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:24,236 Speaker 2: Carl Migliori, Maya ka Nig, Danielle Lacan, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 531 00:31:24,596 --> 00:31:29,316 Speaker 2: Nicole Morano, Jason Gambrel and of course Jacob Eisberg. I'm 532 00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:39,476 Speaker 2: Malcolm Glamo. If you love this show, and others from 533 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:44,556 Speaker 2: Pushkin industries consider becoming a Pushnik. Pushnick is a podcast 534 00:31:44,596 --> 00:31:49,356 Speaker 2: subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four 535 00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:52,836 Speaker 2: dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Look for Pushnik 536 00:31:53,116 --> 00:31:58,836 Speaker 2: exclusively on Apple Podcasts Subscriptions