Speaker 1: Pushkin. In two thousand and nine, Korean American journalists Una
Speaker 1: Lee traveled to China. She was there to film a
Speaker 1: documentary about the plight of people who escaped North Korea
Speaker 1: in search of freedom. On the last day of her trip,
Speaker 1: Una and her team briefly crossed the border into North
Speaker 1: Korea to capture some footage before quickly returning to Chinese soil.
Speaker 1: But North Korean soldiers had spotted Una and her crew,
Speaker 1: and the soldiers raced over to them and dragged them
Speaker 1: back into North Korean territory. Una and a fellow journalists
Speaker 1: were then carted around to two different locations before being
Speaker 1: blindfolded and taken to an army base. Being blindfolded was very,
Speaker 1: very scared because you can't really see anything. But when
Speaker 1: someone snatched out the blind board and I was looking
Speaker 1: at the prison cell, and that just told me that
Speaker 1: everything is going to the opposite direction that I wished
Speaker 1: to go. Una ended up being held captive for one
Speaker 1: hundred and forty days in North Korea. She was terrified
Speaker 1: and demoralized during her time there, but there was one
Speaker 1: part of her experience that surprised her. Before she moved
Speaker 1: to the US, Una had grown up in South Korea,
Speaker 1: where she'd been taught to view northerners as the enemy,
Speaker 1: but that changed for Una during her time in North
Speaker 1: Korea as she found herself building emotional connections with the
Speaker 1: people who were guarding her. There were some moments that
Speaker 1: we could connect on a human level. There were some
Speaker 1: commonalogies that we could understand each other as parents and
Speaker 1: then also understanding the Korean kirture, and there were moments
Speaker 1: that we were able to mix more talk that was
Speaker 1: really helpful during that depension. On today's episode, how finding
Speaker 1: humanity and your enemy can help you survive, I'm Maya
Speaker 1: Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, a
Speaker 1: show about who we are and who we become in
Speaker 1: the face of a big change. In March of two
Speaker 1: thousand and nine, Una Lee said goodbye to her husband
Speaker 1: and four year old daughter in California and traveled to
Speaker 1: China for a two week trip to make a television
Speaker 1: documentary about North Korean defectors. The crew included Una, fellow
Speaker 1: journalist Laura Ling, a producer, and a local guide or
Speaker 1: fixer as Una called him. On their last day of filming,
Speaker 1: they found themselves at the Tuman River, which flows between
Speaker 1: North Korea and China and is a route that North
Speaker 1: Koreans used to seek freedom. Off in the distance in
Speaker 1: North Korean territory, their fixers saw these so called safe
Speaker 1: houses where defectors would wait and hide before trying to
Speaker 1: cross the river into China. Una and her team knew
Speaker 1: it was a risky move to try and film the
Speaker 1: safe houses up close, but they also knew these houses
Speaker 1: represented a critical part of the escape route, so they
Speaker 1: followed their guide to the midpoint of the frozen Tuman
Speaker 1: River and crossed briefly over into North Korean territory. So
Speaker 1: after we get that foodie, we quickly left and then
Speaker 1: we were in the middle of the river and walking
Speaker 1: back and continued to filming and or producer he shouted soldiers.
Speaker 1: Two soldiers ran towards Una and her crew with rifles
Speaker 1: in hand, and we all ran as fast as we
Speaker 1: cou to towards Chinese soil. And my fixer who was
Speaker 1: running next me and asked me, are you filming this?
Speaker 1: And I thought it's crazy, but then at the same time,
Speaker 1: you never know, so let me let me feel me
Speaker 1: because this is the thing that probably a lot of
Speaker 1: Norse cream defectors are facing. So I filiped the camera
Speaker 1: and put under my arm and push the record and
Speaker 1: then ran and our producer, who was an avid runner,
Speaker 1: he disappeared out of my sight fast. And when I
Speaker 1: arrived in Chinese soil, I found Laura just knee on ice,
Speaker 1: and then I just stopped running. So I asked her
Speaker 1: you okay, and she said I can't, you know, I
Speaker 1: can't feel my legs. So in a flash, didn't know
Speaker 1: what to do with us. Somebody who can fill her
Speaker 1: leg and I knew that I cannot leave her alone there,
Speaker 1: and all these things in my mind, and then we
Speaker 1: were surrounded by two Norse Grand soldiers. So you find
Speaker 1: you find Laura on the ice, on her knees, unable
Speaker 1: to move, and you're now surrounded by North Korean soldiers.
Speaker 1: What happens after you're caught? So there were two small
Speaker 1: North Grand soldiers, one what guarding Laura was guarding me,
Speaker 1: and they both were determined to drag us back to
Speaker 1: North Korea. And I was fighting. I grabbed anything that
Speaker 1: in front of me not to be dragged, and at
Speaker 1: some point he wanted to hit me because I was
Speaker 1: fighting against him, and then he lifted his rifle. Back
Speaker 1: of his rifle was pointing me, and so when I
Speaker 1: looked at him, and he was a young boy, maybe seventeen,
Speaker 1: and they he he wasn't hesitating to hit me. So
Speaker 1: I quickly told him that I'm going to get up
Speaker 1: and walk with you. So I got up and walked
Speaker 1: with him, and I saw Laura, and when I looked her,
Speaker 1: she was unconscious on the eyes. She was hit by
Speaker 1: the other soldier, and I streamed her name over and
Speaker 1: over to wake her up, and she finally woke up,
Speaker 1: and I helped her and we got up and we
Speaker 1: both followed these two storgiers and across the river to
Speaker 1: North Korea. And what's going through your head at this moment?
Speaker 1: In everything felt so surree. Your mind was everywhere and
Speaker 1: fear and worried and what's going on? And then and
Speaker 1: then it's silly. But I was hopeful too, because some
Speaker 1: of journalists sometimes talk to North Grand soldiers and then
Speaker 1: they write stories about it. So we knew about these things.
Speaker 1: So we were hoping that, oh, is it something that
Speaker 1: bad incident, but they're gonna extend us back home. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Oh, what's in my mind? I just couldn't believe.
Speaker 1: I just couldn't believe what has happened. Like, it's not
Speaker 1: something that you can organize your thoughts and plan things.
Speaker 1: You just a face every moment that comes to you.
Speaker 1: And it was more like I need to become so
Speaker 1: that I can make the best decision or best reaction.
Speaker 1: So I think I was trying to become and I
Speaker 1: was trying to somehow find a human connection with them
Speaker 1: so that they won't be too brutal towards us. You
Speaker 1: say more about that, in what ways did you try
Speaker 1: to find human connection with them? They were actually these
Speaker 1: boys were smoking while they're walking, and they offered me,
Speaker 1: do you want to smoke? I didn't smoke, but somehow
Speaker 1: I know that anything that similar action that you do,
Speaker 1: they will have the feel comfortable. So I said, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna yeah, give me one. After Unit and Laura were
Speaker 1: captured by these soldiers, they were moved to two different
Speaker 1: locations before being blindfolded and driven to an army base.
Speaker 1: What is the army base? Like? It was like a
Speaker 1: matchbox along box buildings with gray color, and then they
Speaker 1: had an exercise yard in front of the building. Soldiers
Speaker 1: to practice knife fighting, and we were taken inside of
Speaker 1: or a sure moment to an officer, and the insight
Speaker 1: looked like a scene from World War two. Everything was
Speaker 1: so old in their telephone typewriters. Everything was like you
Speaker 1: traveled Tiemotion two, nineteen forty. So you said to me
Speaker 1: that you were retaining some hope, you know, maybe it
Speaker 1: will be okay, maybe they'll let us, maybe they'll set
Speaker 1: us free. At what moment did you realize that wasn't
Speaker 1: going to be the case. Being blind folded was very
Speaker 1: scared because you can't really see anything. But when someone
Speaker 1: snatched out the blind board and I was looking at
Speaker 1: the prison cell, and that just told me that everything
Speaker 1: is going to the opposite direction that I wish to go.
Speaker 1: And the cell was very small, and it was maybe
Speaker 1: five by seven maybe two others can lay down together
Speaker 1: that small cells. And they put Laura and I into
Speaker 1: two different cells, and in there there was nothing, nothing
Speaker 1: but myself and I was there for to nights, but
Speaker 1: there was a long tonight. And were you told what
Speaker 1: was happening? I mean, did you get did anyone let
Speaker 1: you know what the state of affairs was? What Laura
Speaker 1: and I quickly decided we are not going to tell
Speaker 1: them they were from television Cavor Television. We were going
Speaker 1: to tell them we're students studying film, and then we
Speaker 1: followed our professor, which is our another producer who disappeared,
Speaker 1: So we kind of made that story. I kind of
Speaker 1: joked with my another producer in the plane, if anything happened,
Speaker 1: we tell this kind of story. I never knew that
Speaker 1: I was going to use that story, and they were.
Speaker 1: They were interrogating Laura May separate to get more information.
Speaker 1: UNA's and Laura's stories did not completely match up, so
Speaker 1: they were immediately relocated to a secluded compound in Pyongyang,
Speaker 1: the capital of North Korea. There they were isolated in
Speaker 1: separate rooms. North Korean government officials repeatedly questioned Yuna and
Speaker 1: Laura for months with the goal of getting them to
Speaker 1: reveal the truth about who they really were and why
Speaker 1: they were there. Eventually, North Korea's tactics worked. In May
Speaker 1: of two thousand and nine, Una and Laura broke down
Speaker 1: and signed a confession. They were brought to trial three
Speaker 1: weeks later and sentenced to twelve years in a North
Speaker 1: Korean hard labor camp. Yuna was stunned by the verdict
Speaker 1: when exactly they'd be transferred to the labor camp was
Speaker 1: still up in the air, but Una was paralyzed with
Speaker 1: fear about how she would survive her time there. That
Speaker 1: is the moment that I crush it. And at the time,
Speaker 1: everything that, all my hope, all my effort to put
Speaker 1: myself together, just just crash it. And I I was
Speaker 1: so impanic mode, and North Korean officers brought doctors to
Speaker 1: make sure that I'm not going to lose myself. What
Speaker 1: did it look like for you when you lost hope?
Speaker 1: You know? North Korea gave me sleeping pills. I didn't
Speaker 1: take any pills that they gave me, and I collected them,
Speaker 1: and that's the moment that I felt like I wanted
Speaker 1: to just take them all and I wanted to find peace.
Speaker 1: It was so so hard to even breathe, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to find the peace. And that's the moment that
Speaker 1: I really wanted to let everything go. But thankfully, you know,
Speaker 1: my daughter's face just passed by, It flashes me in
Speaker 1: front of me, and then I felt that's very selfish
Speaker 1: decision to make. So so one more day, you know,
Speaker 1: one more day. Someone wrote to me that it's one
Speaker 1: more day close to home. I don't think that you
Speaker 1: are adding days in North Korea. It's one more day
Speaker 1: close to home. So I reminded myself that. So I thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe this is the burden that I can handle. Still,
Speaker 1: you know, continued to fear her eventual transfer to a
Speaker 1: hard labor camp, and she desperately missed her family back
Speaker 1: in California, her husband Michael and her four year old
Speaker 1: daughter Hannah. She was rarely allowed to talk with them
Speaker 1: by phone, so she spent hours a day writing letters
Speaker 1: to Michael. Michael and I really left everything to God
Speaker 1: and then whatever we just uh without talking to each other.
Speaker 1: We we knew that we couldn't control anything, and then
Speaker 1: we are gonna rely on God. Whatever happened, that would
Speaker 1: be okay. And Hannah was didn't know. We didn't tear
Speaker 1: Hannah that I was detained. She thought that I was
Speaker 1: on a business triph my God, but Michael thought that something.
Speaker 1: She knew something was wrong because he said she got
Speaker 1: up in the middle of night and started to cry
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. Um, we did our best to to
Speaker 1: protect Hannah. At the time, she was only four. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1: So at one point, m Laura says to you, looking
Speaker 1: tell them that you have a daughter at home, I'll
Speaker 1: stay here instead, and and you refuse. You're clearly an
Speaker 1: exceedingly loyal person, right, But I'm wondering, you know, in
Speaker 1: that moment, how do you weigh these competing loyalties in
Speaker 1: your life? Right, you have loyalty towards Laura, you also
Speaker 1: have loyalty towards Michael and Hannah. You know, how do
Speaker 1: you think about that? It's such an incredibly painful and
Speaker 1: challenging position to be in. I'm I'm I'm grateful that
Speaker 1: you you know, you're seeing this a really positive way.
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I I think I thought about it.
Speaker 1: I thought about why am I making those choices? Why
Speaker 1: am I not thinking about myself first? My family first.
Speaker 1: I always thought that my families are families always next
Speaker 1: to me, right, I always thought that they will be
Speaker 1: there all the nime. So my priority was somebody who
Speaker 1: need my help, not my family, because my family is
Speaker 1: going to be always there. And why am I putting
Speaker 1: so much attention to others and then you're helping everybody
Speaker 1: else but my family? But I still don't know. I
Speaker 1: think it's because I cannot live if I think about myself.
Speaker 1: You know, I abandon something or abandon somebody else because
Speaker 1: of my own selfish reasons, I cannot live. I don't
Speaker 1: think in under any circumstances leaving Laura alone on the eyes,
Speaker 1: by yourself. If I escape and then survived, I don't
Speaker 1: think I could have believed normal life the guilty feeling.
Speaker 1: If Laura said, you go home, you have a child,
Speaker 1: I'll stay here. If I said, okay, I'm gonna think
Speaker 1: about my family better and then leave Laura there by herself,
Speaker 1: I don't think I could have believe without any single
Speaker 1: day without guilty feelings. If I don't align with what
Speaker 1: I feel like what's right, then I would carry that
Speaker 1: burden with on my shoulders every day. We'll be back
Speaker 1: in a moment with a slight change of plans. Korean
Speaker 1: American journalist Uni Lee and her colleague Laura Lying were
Speaker 1: captured in two thousand and nine by North Korean soldiers
Speaker 1: and had been sentenced to twelve years in a North
Speaker 1: Korean hard labor camp. The date for their transfer to
Speaker 1: the labor camp had not yet been set, so Una
Speaker 1: and Laura continued to spend their days in confinement and
Speaker 1: a secluded complex in Pyengyang. One thing that really moved
Speaker 1: me about your story is that you were surprised by
Speaker 1: the kindness that the people you met in North Korea
Speaker 1: showed you, and that it violated your former assumptions given
Speaker 1: how North Koreans were portrayed to you growing up in
Speaker 1: South Korea. Right, Can you tell us a bit more
Speaker 1: about Officer Lee, who was put on your case. I
Speaker 1: remember one time I was loosing so fast in North Korea.
Speaker 1: I lost about seventeen pound, and I was I started
Speaker 1: a small but then you know, losing seventeen pound was
Speaker 1: a lot at the time, but because of my summa
Speaker 1: was so small that I couldn't take a lot of
Speaker 1: food at once. And you're a prisoner, so they will
Speaker 1: give you any three meals a day, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: need a lot each meal. And I think he noticed that.
Speaker 1: He noticed that I couldn't need a lot, and he
Speaker 1: asked if I'm getting enough meal, And one day he
Speaker 1: brought some bread and gave to me to it. I
Speaker 1: just snack. And the other time was after I was
Speaker 1: sentenced to twelve years at the North Korean court, I
Speaker 1: was frightened. I think that was the time that I
Speaker 1: dropped everything, and then I did not want to hang
Speaker 1: on anymore. It was almost like I wanted to just
Speaker 1: give up. And he wanted to somehow come for me,
Speaker 1: and he took me outside of my compinement and I
Speaker 1: told him I'm not not survived in the labor camp
Speaker 1: for twelve years, and he said, we're not going to
Speaker 1: kill you. So he did his best to come for
Speaker 1: me when he could. Yeah, can you tell me about
Speaker 1: the two female guards and the bond that you eventually
Speaker 1: developed with them as well? Oh? Yeah, they were in
Speaker 1: young twenties and one girl was studying English. She wanted
Speaker 1: to be a translator, and her dream was to be
Speaker 1: a translator because she wanted to tell the world how
Speaker 1: how amazing her country is not that bad that like
Speaker 1: you guys, portraying we have something good about our country.
Speaker 1: That was her dream. And she was very curious about
Speaker 1: some of the book that I received from home, and
Speaker 1: she wanted to have that book because she's studying English, right,
Speaker 1: so things like that. She asked me if she can
Speaker 1: borrow that book. Of course, you know, to give to
Speaker 1: her the book. And so we did do things when
Speaker 1: people were not around us. And the other girl was
Speaker 1: a beautiful. She had a beautiful voice. She was a
Speaker 1: really good singer. She sang to my surprise, she sang Celendians,
Speaker 1: my heart will go on all the time. But honestly,
Speaker 1: I grew up propaganda towards North Korea, and then I
Speaker 1: thought that they don't want to do anything to do
Speaker 1: with America language, fashion or anything, you know, art culture.
Speaker 1: So I was actually very surprised that she was singing
Speaker 1: the song. And one day I told her, like, you
Speaker 1: have a beautiful voice. You want to be a singer,
Speaker 1: and she said, no, I can't. And later I learned
Speaker 1: that to be a singer in North Korea you have
Speaker 1: to have money, you have to have a good family
Speaker 1: background or the things to be successful in seeing career.
Speaker 1: So she probably did not have any of those things.
Speaker 1: So I were so bad for her. So every time
Speaker 1: I see her that I wanted a kind of the
Speaker 1: value her, you know. The value was like you know,
Speaker 1: how good she is, and then how beautiful her voices.
Speaker 1: And when she left that job the last day, I
Speaker 1: was really sick in my room so I couldn't move,
Speaker 1: and she came to me and told me that I
Speaker 1: hope that you'll get better soon. And then you'll be
Speaker 1: with your family. So and that was our last conversation.
Speaker 1: You know, was shown many small acts of kindness from
Speaker 1: the people she interacted with at the complex. They brought
Speaker 1: her treats like cherries and fruit juice and turned up
Speaker 1: the volume on songs they knew she liked. And you know,
Speaker 1: it was charmed by how curious they were about many
Speaker 1: aspects of life in America, including day and one night stands.
Speaker 1: We were talking about dating, and then she asked, like,
Speaker 1: is that really true? There's one nice standing it is
Speaker 1: And then I laughed and I laughed and how did
Speaker 1: you guys even know? That's not even the country? Its
Speaker 1: stuff is so conservative in that culture, you know, dating churlture.
Speaker 1: And then I thought that was really funny that they
Speaker 1: brought up. So when I said, like, I think so
Speaker 1: sometimes some people, it happens some people, not to everybody.
Speaker 1: And then they were like, oh, you know, like a
Speaker 1: little girls. So I felt I forgot. I forgot that
Speaker 1: I was a prisoner. At that moment, I felt like
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my high school classroom with my
Speaker 1: friends and talking about all these things. I think because
Speaker 1: of me a prisoner. They were pretty in this job
Speaker 1: right twenty four seven, they couldn't go home, so they
Speaker 1: complained a lot about I want to go home, I
Speaker 1: want to hang out with my friend, and I want
Speaker 1: to do this. At some point I think they fail
Speaker 1: for me that, oh, she's someone who can go home
Speaker 1: five thousand miles from home then by herself. I heard
Speaker 1: she has a child, and they wanted without showing too
Speaker 1: much because of our relationship is guard and prisoner, so
Speaker 1: they wanted to show their kindness very subtle way. The
Speaker 1: guards did that when they're by themselves. Obviously did that
Speaker 1: when you know, when someone wasn't around. So everything they do,
Speaker 1: the kindness, they did that when no one was around.
Speaker 1: At this point August two thousand and nine, Una and
Speaker 1: Laura had been held captive for more than four months
Speaker 1: in North Korea, and we're waiting to find out when
Speaker 1: they be transferred to the hard labor camp. But unbeknownst
Speaker 1: to Una, former President Bill Clinton was on his way
Speaker 1: to North Ria at that moment to negotiate the release.
Speaker 1: And it was actually Officer Lee who take you off
Speaker 1: to this fact that Hope was on the way and
Speaker 1: that someone very important was coming to see her. It
Speaker 1: was a President Clinton. Oh, my god, you it was
Speaker 1: I thought it was an angel standing and you know,
Speaker 1: he has gray hair, and there was a window behind
Speaker 1: him so you can see you can really see his face,
Speaker 1: but with a gray hair person with a tour guy
Speaker 1: with a very generous smile. And then he opened his arms.
Speaker 1: So we ran to him and he embraced us and
Speaker 1: asked us are you guys saying okay. So he brought
Speaker 1: his personal physician with him, so he wanted us to
Speaker 1: talk to the physician to make sure that we are
Speaker 1: physically okay, conditioned to leave if he can make that happen.
Speaker 1: So he told us he has one more meeting to go,
Speaker 1: but she can't promise anything, but we want to make
Speaker 1: sure they are physically okay. And Laura and I were like,
Speaker 1: we're okay, Yeah, We're okay, they can go. Yeah. I've
Speaker 1: watched the footage on YouTube, basically on loop in which
Speaker 1: you're getting off the flight and you reunite with Michael
Speaker 1: and Hannah. What's striking about the video it is that
Speaker 1: it is a complicated joy. Right. I thought everything is
Speaker 1: going back to normal, and then we remember everybody and
Speaker 1: I hug each other, and then you know, that's what
Speaker 1: I was what I expected, and when Hannah hesitant to
Speaker 1: come to me, it really ached my heart. So one
Speaker 1: hundred forty days was a long time for this four
Speaker 1: year old girl. She was just so confused by everything,
Speaker 1: like seeing her mom after so long, and you know,
Speaker 1: seeing these old cameras and then people, and then in
Speaker 1: front of airport and I asked her, do you remember me?
Speaker 1: It's mom, I said in Kournian, and she nodded, and
Speaker 1: then can you give me a hug? And then she
Speaker 1: came to me and I do. It's that moment. Just
Speaker 1: thinking about that moment still make me choke. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. So I I realized that it's been exactly
Speaker 1: twelve years since your captivity, and so in a counterfactual world,
Speaker 1: had you been in the labor camp for twelve years,
Speaker 1: this would have been the year that you were reunited
Speaker 1: with your your daughter, Hannah, right, who's now sixteen? Is
Speaker 1: that right? Yeah? We talked about it, My husband and
Speaker 1: I talked about that it would have been this year
Speaker 1: that we would be reunited if I didn't come home.
Speaker 1: And every moment is like whenever I give her hug,
Speaker 1: whenever I you know, bless her and I and then
Speaker 1: it's I'm thankful, I'm thankful, and thank you we without
Speaker 1: saying we knew it, how we are blessed to be together.
Speaker 1: M You know, we've been talking about how during that
Speaker 1: period of your life, in the years leading up to
Speaker 1: North Korea and then even in the days you were
Speaker 1: in North Korea, UM, you were ruthlessly prioritizing others over
Speaker 1: yourself and your family. And I want to know how
Speaker 1: that dynamic has shifted in your life, like, how, how
Speaker 1: how that's changed for you, if at all it did it?
Speaker 1: Did it? Did I put my family first before others?
Speaker 1: I'm not very I'm not gonna say that I'm very
Speaker 1: good at it one hundred percent. I'm changing it. No,
Speaker 1: But I can I can probably tell share. I can
Speaker 1: share that. No. I think about my family a lot more,
Speaker 1: a lot more than I used to be, and then
Speaker 1: I put them as a priorities and I don't for
Speaker 1: them matter. I don't have a guilty feeling when I
Speaker 1: do that anymore. So I'm very thankful. I will say that.
Speaker 1: You know, in learning about your story, and you know,
Speaker 1: first of all the horrors of being detained in North
Speaker 1: Korea and all that came with that, One of the
Speaker 1: most painful moments for me was it was just a
Speaker 1: small line in your book, but for some reason it
Speaker 1: really really moved me. You were saying that there was
Speaker 1: a night where you slept really well and you felt
Speaker 1: so burdened by guilt because you thought, how dare I
Speaker 1: sleep well when my family is suffering back home? And
Speaker 1: I guess the reason that that meant so much to
Speaker 1: me is that it showed me like the depth of
Speaker 1: complexity of what you were dealing with on a psychological level.
Speaker 1: It's like you're both trying to minimize your pain to survive,
Speaker 1: but then anytime you feel a moment of joy or
Speaker 1: calm or happiness, you're saddled by guilt. You know, Maya,
Speaker 1: I still live live in that I cannot enjoy. I
Speaker 1: feel like I even after I came home, and then
Speaker 1: a lot of people pay attention to our stories, and
Speaker 1: you know, and I had a lot. I met a
Speaker 1: lot of friends who I never knew before, and all
Speaker 1: these things that they usually enjoy, even birthdays or happy moments,
Speaker 1: that I couldn't enjoy it. I couldn't enjoy any happy
Speaker 1: moment because of that guilty feeling followed me from somewhere,
Speaker 1: and I was I was worried about what if, what
Speaker 1: if anybody's anybody's in pain, including including the the factors
Speaker 1: who we met. So so the moment that you want
Speaker 1: to when you go through the moment that it's painful,
Speaker 1: you want to get out of it right. You want
Speaker 1: to get out of that moment and you want to
Speaker 1: have some easy, easy time. But when I got out
Speaker 1: of that paying for time and then I have a
Speaker 1: little bit of peace in me, then immediately that the
Speaker 1: guilty feeling came to me to bother me. Have you
Speaker 1: been able to make progress on that to feel that,
Speaker 1: just like all the people you're trying to help out there,
Speaker 1: including your family, that you you too deserve happiness and peace.
Speaker 1: I yea, I learned. I mean I feel happy when
Speaker 1: I say my family is happy, but my emotions are
Speaker 1: very try. Since then, I tried to be happy. I
Speaker 1: tried to tell my stuff that it's okay to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: It's okay. So I tried to tell my stuff that
Speaker 1: your story makes me reflect on the fact that as people,
Speaker 1: we like to villainize whole swats of whole swats of people,
Speaker 1: you know, whole countries and a lot of people are
Speaker 1: victims of their circumstance. You know, it's very possible Officer
Speaker 1: Lee didn't choose to be born in North Korea, right,
Speaker 1: It's possible that he's a really good hearted human being
Speaker 1: who is in terrible circumstances and in order to protect
Speaker 1: his family, he had to take this job. And from
Speaker 1: what you're describing, it seems like he brought as much
Speaker 1: humanity as he could to an otherwise really terrible position. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're You're so right. Not everybody's have have that heart. Um,
Speaker 1: try to be nice to your prisoner. They did not
Speaker 1: have to, and some of them I could see that
Speaker 1: it is a very bitter tourist to US and South
Speaker 1: Korea and then did not want to be nice at all.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate that that, even even that small kindness
Speaker 1: that I was able to receive during that harsh time.
Speaker 1: You know, I've I've read a lot about your story
Speaker 1: and people are saying, oh, you know, they were nice
Speaker 1: because they were being manipulative, or she fills Stockholm syndrome
Speaker 1: or whatnot, and I just don't buy any of that.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Like, at the end of the day, we
Speaker 1: as humans can be discerning enough to know when kindness
Speaker 1: is unnecessary, but people do it anyway. I guess I
Speaker 1: just get frustrated by that critique of your of your
Speaker 1: noticing humanity and others. I find it lightly offensive. Honestly,
Speaker 1: do we not want to say that humanity if someone's
Speaker 1: criticize it. I do, even even even if someone says,
Speaker 1: is that Stockholm syndrome ten years later, eleven years or later,
Speaker 1: I totally remember that small kindness. I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: everything was so wonderful and it was peaceful. There were many,
Speaker 1: many moments that I wanted to give up my life.
Speaker 1: Do we want to hold on that memory? No, I
Speaker 1: don't want to. I want to believe that we all
Speaker 1: have a human as all kind heart somewhere they can
Speaker 1: we can bring it out. Then we will understand better.
Speaker 1: If you miss somebody on a human level, you'll have
Speaker 1: a better understanding. You have a better open heart to
Speaker 1: understand that person. And like Norse Koreans grow propaganda towards us,
Speaker 1: I did the same thing. We did not understand each
Speaker 1: other as human beings. And to me, Norse Koreans, to
Speaker 1: me now are the people who I remember who I interacted.
Speaker 1: They are the Norse Korean to me now before my
Speaker 1: experience Norse Koreans or the ones that who I watched
Speaker 1: on news. Now I'm back to my normal life. I
Speaker 1: hate to forget about that, that the good side of
Speaker 1: human good human side. I hate to forget about it.
Speaker 1: It's so easy to forget and then focus on the
Speaker 1: news and then judge others by what you the information
Speaker 1: you received. So I'll try to remember that those people
Speaker 1: who I interacted, that's North Korean. You know. We gotta
Speaker 1: have that human interaction. We gotta see each other, and
Speaker 1: I think every human being has that good side of humanity. Hey,
Speaker 1: thanks for listening. Join me next week. When I talked
Speaker 1: to doctor Dixon Shabandah, a psychiatrist in Zimbabwe who is
Speaker 1: on a mission to help people in his community access
Speaker 1: mental healthcare, there weren't nearly enough psychiatrists and therapists to
Speaker 1: meet the need, so Dixon turned to a rather unorthodox
Speaker 1: group for help, Grandmother's. I kind of realized that there
Speaker 1: was something in having an older woman who has wisdom
Speaker 1: and experience, you know, reaching out to help a young
Speaker 1: mother who is struggling with postnatal depression, with anxiety disorder,
Speaker 1: and just reaching out and establishing that connection that makes
Speaker 1: that person feel comfortable, to make them feel that sense
Speaker 1: of belonging that I am in a place where I'm
Speaker 1: being taken care of. That was really powerful. A Slight
Speaker 1: Change of Plans is created written an executive produce by
Speaker 1: me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes Tyler Greene
Speaker 1: our senior producer, Jen Guera our senior editor, Then Holiday,
Speaker 1: our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck our producer, and Neil LaBelle
Speaker 1: our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our theme song, and
Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of
Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks
Speaker 1: to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee Tall
Speaker 1: Malat and Heather Fame and of course a very special
Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change
Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you
Speaker 1: next week. Well, I have to just ask you what
Speaker 1: is your relationship with Selene Dion's My Heart Will Go On?
Speaker 1: You know, how do you feel about the song? Can
Speaker 1: you even listen to it? You know? You know it
Speaker 1: because she she fair in love with this song so
Speaker 1: much that she was singing over and over, and sometimes
Speaker 1: I wanted to close my ears, like I need to
Speaker 1: be quiet.