1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In two thousand and nine, Korean American journalists Una 2 00:00:33,356 --> 00:00:36,156 Speaker 1: Lee traveled to China. She was there to film a 3 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:39,516 Speaker 1: documentary about the plight of people who escaped North Korea 4 00:00:39,676 --> 00:00:42,476 Speaker 1: in search of freedom. On the last day of her trip, 5 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:45,316 Speaker 1: Una and her team briefly crossed the border into North 6 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:49,556 Speaker 1: Korea to capture some footage before quickly returning to Chinese soil. 7 00:00:50,356 --> 00:00:53,356 Speaker 1: But North Korean soldiers had spotted Una and her crew, 8 00:00:53,756 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 1: and the soldiers raced over to them and dragged them 9 00:00:56,636 --> 00:01:00,596 Speaker 1: back into North Korean territory. Una and a fellow journalists 10 00:01:00,596 --> 00:01:04,116 Speaker 1: were then carted around to two different locations before being 11 00:01:04,116 --> 00:01:08,996 Speaker 1: blindfolded and taken to an army base. Being blindfolded was very, 12 00:01:09,156 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: very scared because you can't really see anything. But when 13 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:16,516 Speaker 1: someone snatched out the blind board and I was looking 14 00:01:16,516 --> 00:01:21,716 Speaker 1: at the prison cell, and that just told me that 15 00:01:21,716 --> 00:01:25,596 Speaker 1: everything is going to the opposite direction that I wished 16 00:01:25,636 --> 00:01:29,476 Speaker 1: to go. Una ended up being held captive for one 17 00:01:29,556 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 1: hundred and forty days in North Korea. She was terrified 18 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 1: and demoralized during her time there, but there was one 19 00:01:36,316 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 1: part of her experience that surprised her. Before she moved 20 00:01:40,156 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 1: to the US, Una had grown up in South Korea, 21 00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:45,596 Speaker 1: where she'd been taught to view northerners as the enemy, 22 00:01:46,396 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 1: but that changed for Una during her time in North 23 00:01:48,956 --> 00:01:52,396 Speaker 1: Korea as she found herself building emotional connections with the 24 00:01:52,436 --> 00:01:56,356 Speaker 1: people who were guarding her. There were some moments that 25 00:01:56,636 --> 00:01:59,796 Speaker 1: we could connect on a human level. There were some 26 00:01:59,876 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 1: commonalogies that we could understand each other as parents and 27 00:02:04,196 --> 00:02:09,116 Speaker 1: then also understanding the Korean kirture, and there were moments 28 00:02:09,196 --> 00:02:12,116 Speaker 1: that we were able to mix more talk that was 29 00:02:12,436 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 1: really helpful during that depension. On today's episode, how finding 30 00:02:21,116 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 1: humanity and your enemy can help you survive, I'm Maya 31 00:02:27,236 --> 00:02:30,116 Speaker 1: Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, a 32 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:32,716 Speaker 1: show about who we are and who we become in 33 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:48,156 Speaker 1: the face of a big change. In March of two 34 00:02:48,196 --> 00:02:50,836 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, Una Lee said goodbye to her husband 35 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: and four year old daughter in California and traveled to 36 00:02:53,956 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 1: China for a two week trip to make a television 37 00:02:56,316 --> 00:03:01,356 Speaker 1: documentary about North Korean defectors. The crew included Una, fellow 38 00:03:01,436 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 1: journalist Laura Ling, a producer, and a local guide or 39 00:03:05,076 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 1: fixer as Una called him. On their last day of filming, 40 00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: they found themselves at the Tuman River, which flows between 41 00:03:11,836 --> 00:03:14,516 Speaker 1: North Korea and China and is a route that North 42 00:03:14,596 --> 00:03:17,996 Speaker 1: Koreans used to seek freedom. Off in the distance in 43 00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:21,796 Speaker 1: North Korean territory, their fixers saw these so called safe 44 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:25,076 Speaker 1: houses where defectors would wait and hide before trying to 45 00:03:25,076 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 1: cross the river into China. Una and her team knew 46 00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 1: it was a risky move to try and film the 47 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:34,156 Speaker 1: safe houses up close, but they also knew these houses 48 00:03:34,196 --> 00:03:37,636 Speaker 1: represented a critical part of the escape route, so they 49 00:03:37,636 --> 00:03:40,116 Speaker 1: followed their guide to the midpoint of the frozen Tuman 50 00:03:40,236 --> 00:03:45,036 Speaker 1: River and crossed briefly over into North Korean territory. So 51 00:03:46,436 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: after we get that foodie, we quickly left and then 52 00:03:49,636 --> 00:03:51,636 Speaker 1: we were in the middle of the river and walking 53 00:03:51,676 --> 00:03:57,916 Speaker 1: back and continued to filming and or producer he shouted soldiers. 54 00:03:58,876 --> 00:04:02,476 Speaker 1: Two soldiers ran towards Una and her crew with rifles 55 00:04:02,476 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 1: in hand, and we all ran as fast as we 56 00:04:07,396 --> 00:04:12,756 Speaker 1: cou to towards Chinese soil. And my fixer who was 57 00:04:12,876 --> 00:04:15,716 Speaker 1: running next me and asked me, are you filming this? 58 00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:19,556 Speaker 1: And I thought it's crazy, but then at the same time, 59 00:04:19,596 --> 00:04:22,636 Speaker 1: you never know, so let me let me feel me 60 00:04:22,796 --> 00:04:24,956 Speaker 1: because this is the thing that probably a lot of 61 00:04:24,996 --> 00:04:28,276 Speaker 1: Norse cream defectors are facing. So I filiped the camera 62 00:04:28,356 --> 00:04:31,156 Speaker 1: and put under my arm and push the record and 63 00:04:31,236 --> 00:04:37,076 Speaker 1: then ran and our producer, who was an avid runner, 64 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:41,276 Speaker 1: he disappeared out of my sight fast. And when I 65 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:47,556 Speaker 1: arrived in Chinese soil, I found Laura just knee on ice, 66 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:52,676 Speaker 1: and then I just stopped running. So I asked her 67 00:04:52,716 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: you okay, and she said I can't, you know, I 68 00:04:55,516 --> 00:05:02,436 Speaker 1: can't feel my legs. So in a flash, didn't know 69 00:05:02,596 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: what to do with us. Somebody who can fill her 70 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:08,276 Speaker 1: leg and I knew that I cannot leave her alone there, 71 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:11,876 Speaker 1: and all these things in my mind, and then we 72 00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 1: were surrounded by two Norse Grand soldiers. So you find 73 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:21,516 Speaker 1: you find Laura on the ice, on her knees, unable 74 00:05:21,556 --> 00:05:25,836 Speaker 1: to move, and you're now surrounded by North Korean soldiers. 75 00:05:26,276 --> 00:05:33,116 Speaker 1: What happens after you're caught? So there were two small 76 00:05:33,196 --> 00:05:37,236 Speaker 1: North Grand soldiers, one what guarding Laura was guarding me, 77 00:05:37,356 --> 00:05:40,596 Speaker 1: and they both were determined to drag us back to 78 00:05:40,676 --> 00:05:44,356 Speaker 1: North Korea. And I was fighting. I grabbed anything that 79 00:05:44,436 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 1: in front of me not to be dragged, and at 80 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 1: some point he wanted to hit me because I was 81 00:05:53,756 --> 00:05:58,036 Speaker 1: fighting against him, and then he lifted his rifle. Back 82 00:05:58,036 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 1: of his rifle was pointing me, and so when I 83 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:08,276 Speaker 1: looked at him, and he was a young boy, maybe seventeen, 84 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:14,956 Speaker 1: and they he he wasn't hesitating to hit me. So 85 00:06:14,996 --> 00:06:16,876 Speaker 1: I quickly told him that I'm going to get up 86 00:06:16,916 --> 00:06:20,476 Speaker 1: and walk with you. So I got up and walked 87 00:06:20,516 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 1: with him, and I saw Laura, and when I looked her, 88 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,916 Speaker 1: she was unconscious on the eyes. She was hit by 89 00:06:28,076 --> 00:06:34,836 Speaker 1: the other soldier, and I streamed her name over and 90 00:06:34,956 --> 00:06:38,796 Speaker 1: over to wake her up, and she finally woke up, 91 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:42,436 Speaker 1: and I helped her and we got up and we 92 00:06:42,596 --> 00:06:47,516 Speaker 1: both followed these two storgiers and across the river to 93 00:06:47,716 --> 00:06:52,596 Speaker 1: North Korea. And what's going through your head at this moment? 94 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 1: In everything felt so surree. Your mind was everywhere and 95 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:04,476 Speaker 1: fear and worried and what's going on? And then and 96 00:07:04,516 --> 00:07:08,756 Speaker 1: then it's silly. But I was hopeful too, because some 97 00:07:08,836 --> 00:07:14,156 Speaker 1: of journalists sometimes talk to North Grand soldiers and then 98 00:07:14,196 --> 00:07:17,756 Speaker 1: they write stories about it. So we knew about these things. 99 00:07:17,756 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 1: So we were hoping that, oh, is it something that 100 00:07:21,636 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 1: bad incident, but they're gonna extend us back home. I 101 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:32,476 Speaker 1: don't know, Oh, what's in my mind? I just couldn't believe. 102 00:07:32,796 --> 00:07:37,756 Speaker 1: I just couldn't believe what has happened. Like, it's not 103 00:07:37,876 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 1: something that you can organize your thoughts and plan things. 104 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:45,236 Speaker 1: You just a face every moment that comes to you. 105 00:07:45,836 --> 00:07:51,116 Speaker 1: And it was more like I need to become so 106 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 1: that I can make the best decision or best reaction. 107 00:07:55,756 --> 00:07:59,236 Speaker 1: So I think I was trying to become and I 108 00:07:59,436 --> 00:08:03,716 Speaker 1: was trying to somehow find a human connection with them 109 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:09,236 Speaker 1: so that they won't be too brutal towards us. You 110 00:08:09,276 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 1: say more about that, in what ways did you try 111 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:16,756 Speaker 1: to find human connection with them? They were actually these 112 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:23,276 Speaker 1: boys were smoking while they're walking, and they offered me, 113 00:08:23,356 --> 00:08:27,396 Speaker 1: do you want to smoke? I didn't smoke, but somehow 114 00:08:27,436 --> 00:08:31,596 Speaker 1: I know that anything that similar action that you do, 115 00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:34,476 Speaker 1: they will have the feel comfortable. So I said, I'm 116 00:08:34,516 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 1: gonna yeah, give me one. After Unit and Laura were 117 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:42,156 Speaker 1: captured by these soldiers, they were moved to two different 118 00:08:42,196 --> 00:08:45,956 Speaker 1: locations before being blindfolded and driven to an army base. 119 00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:51,156 Speaker 1: What is the army base? Like? It was like a 120 00:08:51,276 --> 00:08:57,436 Speaker 1: matchbox along box buildings with gray color, and then they 121 00:08:57,516 --> 00:09:02,356 Speaker 1: had an exercise yard in front of the building. Soldiers 122 00:09:02,476 --> 00:09:08,836 Speaker 1: to practice knife fighting, and we were taken inside of 123 00:09:09,196 --> 00:09:13,836 Speaker 1: or a sure moment to an officer, and the insight 124 00:09:14,036 --> 00:09:19,356 Speaker 1: looked like a scene from World War two. Everything was 125 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:26,796 Speaker 1: so old in their telephone typewriters. Everything was like you 126 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:33,956 Speaker 1: traveled Tiemotion two, nineteen forty. So you said to me 127 00:09:34,476 --> 00:09:38,516 Speaker 1: that you were retaining some hope, you know, maybe it 128 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:41,236 Speaker 1: will be okay, maybe they'll let us, maybe they'll set 129 00:09:41,316 --> 00:09:45,836 Speaker 1: us free. At what moment did you realize that wasn't 130 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:51,356 Speaker 1: going to be the case. Being blind folded was very 131 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:55,436 Speaker 1: scared because you can't really see anything. But when someone 132 00:09:55,476 --> 00:09:58,636 Speaker 1: snatched out the blind board and I was looking at 133 00:09:58,716 --> 00:10:04,396 Speaker 1: the prison cell, and that just told me that everything 134 00:10:04,596 --> 00:10:07,876 Speaker 1: is going to the opposite direction that I wish to go. 135 00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:12,236 Speaker 1: And the cell was very small, and it was maybe 136 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 1: five by seven maybe two others can lay down together 137 00:10:16,436 --> 00:10:20,796 Speaker 1: that small cells. And they put Laura and I into 138 00:10:20,836 --> 00:10:28,956 Speaker 1: two different cells, and in there there was nothing, nothing 139 00:10:29,196 --> 00:10:32,396 Speaker 1: but myself and I was there for to nights, but 140 00:10:32,436 --> 00:10:35,716 Speaker 1: there was a long tonight. And were you told what 141 00:10:35,796 --> 00:10:38,436 Speaker 1: was happening? I mean, did you get did anyone let 142 00:10:38,436 --> 00:10:41,516 Speaker 1: you know what the state of affairs was? What Laura 143 00:10:41,636 --> 00:10:44,396 Speaker 1: and I quickly decided we are not going to tell 144 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:48,396 Speaker 1: them they were from television Cavor Television. We were going 145 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:51,516 Speaker 1: to tell them we're students studying film, and then we 146 00:10:51,596 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 1: followed our professor, which is our another producer who disappeared, 147 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:57,996 Speaker 1: So we kind of made that story. I kind of 148 00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:02,276 Speaker 1: joked with my another producer in the plane, if anything happened, 149 00:11:02,316 --> 00:11:05,236 Speaker 1: we tell this kind of story. I never knew that 150 00:11:05,276 --> 00:11:08,436 Speaker 1: I was going to use that story, and they were. 151 00:11:09,276 --> 00:11:13,076 Speaker 1: They were interrogating Laura May separate to get more information. 152 00:11:14,476 --> 00:11:17,836 Speaker 1: UNA's and Laura's stories did not completely match up, so 153 00:11:17,876 --> 00:11:21,516 Speaker 1: they were immediately relocated to a secluded compound in Pyongyang, 154 00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:25,076 Speaker 1: the capital of North Korea. There they were isolated in 155 00:11:25,116 --> 00:11:29,316 Speaker 1: separate rooms. North Korean government officials repeatedly questioned Yuna and 156 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:31,996 Speaker 1: Laura for months with the goal of getting them to 157 00:11:32,036 --> 00:11:34,876 Speaker 1: reveal the truth about who they really were and why 158 00:11:34,916 --> 00:11:40,156 Speaker 1: they were there. Eventually, North Korea's tactics worked. In May 159 00:11:40,196 --> 00:11:42,876 Speaker 1: of two thousand and nine, Una and Laura broke down 160 00:11:42,996 --> 00:11:46,156 Speaker 1: and signed a confession. They were brought to trial three 161 00:11:46,196 --> 00:11:49,196 Speaker 1: weeks later and sentenced to twelve years in a North 162 00:11:49,316 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 1: Korean hard labor camp. Yuna was stunned by the verdict 163 00:11:54,796 --> 00:11:57,276 Speaker 1: when exactly they'd be transferred to the labor camp was 164 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:00,116 Speaker 1: still up in the air, but Una was paralyzed with 165 00:12:00,196 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: fear about how she would survive her time there. That 166 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 1: is the moment that I crush it. And at the time, 167 00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:16,556 Speaker 1: everything that, all my hope, all my effort to put 168 00:12:16,556 --> 00:12:22,516 Speaker 1: myself together, just just crash it. And I I was 169 00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:29,116 Speaker 1: so impanic mode, and North Korean officers brought doctors to 170 00:12:29,276 --> 00:12:35,676 Speaker 1: make sure that I'm not going to lose myself. What 171 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:37,756 Speaker 1: did it look like for you when you lost hope? 172 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 1: You know? North Korea gave me sleeping pills. I didn't 173 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:50,076 Speaker 1: take any pills that they gave me, and I collected them, 174 00:12:50,156 --> 00:12:52,516 Speaker 1: and that's the moment that I felt like I wanted 175 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:57,516 Speaker 1: to just take them all and I wanted to find peace. 176 00:12:57,756 --> 00:13:02,676 Speaker 1: It was so so hard to even breathe, and I 177 00:13:02,716 --> 00:13:06,636 Speaker 1: wanted to find the peace. And that's the moment that 178 00:13:06,716 --> 00:13:10,676 Speaker 1: I really wanted to let everything go. But thankfully, you know, 179 00:13:10,876 --> 00:13:19,236 Speaker 1: my daughter's face just passed by, It flashes me in 180 00:13:19,276 --> 00:13:22,716 Speaker 1: front of me, and then I felt that's very selfish 181 00:13:22,836 --> 00:13:28,476 Speaker 1: decision to make. So so one more day, you know, 182 00:13:28,636 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 1: one more day. Someone wrote to me that it's one 183 00:13:32,116 --> 00:13:36,276 Speaker 1: more day close to home. I don't think that you 184 00:13:36,276 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 1: are adding days in North Korea. It's one more day 185 00:13:39,276 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 1: close to home. So I reminded myself that. So I thought, Okay, 186 00:13:45,636 --> 00:13:50,516 Speaker 1: maybe this is the burden that I can handle. Still, 187 00:13:50,676 --> 00:13:53,356 Speaker 1: you know, continued to fear her eventual transfer to a 188 00:13:53,396 --> 00:13:56,796 Speaker 1: hard labor camp, and she desperately missed her family back 189 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:59,876 Speaker 1: in California, her husband Michael and her four year old 190 00:13:59,956 --> 00:14:03,196 Speaker 1: daughter Hannah. She was rarely allowed to talk with them 191 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:06,076 Speaker 1: by phone, so she spent hours a day writing letters 192 00:14:06,076 --> 00:14:14,276 Speaker 1: to Michael. Michael and I really left everything to God 193 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 1: and then whatever we just uh without talking to each other. 194 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:25,476 Speaker 1: We we knew that we couldn't control anything, and then 195 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 1: we are gonna rely on God. Whatever happened, that would 196 00:14:31,196 --> 00:14:38,916 Speaker 1: be okay. And Hannah was didn't know. We didn't tear 197 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:42,116 Speaker 1: Hannah that I was detained. She thought that I was 198 00:14:42,236 --> 00:14:46,676 Speaker 1: on a business triph my God, but Michael thought that something. 199 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: She knew something was wrong because he said she got 200 00:14:49,556 --> 00:14:51,676 Speaker 1: up in the middle of night and started to cry 201 00:14:52,116 --> 00:14:56,876 Speaker 1: out of nowhere. Um, we did our best to to 202 00:14:56,916 --> 00:15:02,356 Speaker 1: protect Hannah. At the time, she was only four. Yeah. Wow. 203 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:08,916 Speaker 1: So at one point, m Laura says to you, looking 204 00:15:09,716 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 1: tell them that you have a daughter at home, I'll 205 00:15:12,276 --> 00:15:18,236 Speaker 1: stay here instead, and and you refuse. You're clearly an 206 00:15:18,236 --> 00:15:23,276 Speaker 1: exceedingly loyal person, right, But I'm wondering, you know, in 207 00:15:23,316 --> 00:15:26,796 Speaker 1: that moment, how do you weigh these competing loyalties in 208 00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:29,676 Speaker 1: your life? Right, you have loyalty towards Laura, you also 209 00:15:29,676 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 1: have loyalty towards Michael and Hannah. You know, how do 210 00:15:33,156 --> 00:15:36,516 Speaker 1: you think about that? It's such an incredibly painful and 211 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:46,996 Speaker 1: challenging position to be in. I'm I'm I'm grateful that 212 00:15:47,236 --> 00:15:52,756 Speaker 1: you you know, you're seeing this a really positive way. 213 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:57,916 Speaker 1: But I don't know. I I think I thought about it. 214 00:15:57,956 --> 00:16:01,076 Speaker 1: I thought about why am I making those choices? Why 215 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:05,476 Speaker 1: am I not thinking about myself first? My family first. 216 00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 1: I always thought that my families are families always next 217 00:16:17,556 --> 00:16:20,396 Speaker 1: to me, right, I always thought that they will be 218 00:16:20,396 --> 00:16:25,716 Speaker 1: there all the nime. So my priority was somebody who 219 00:16:25,836 --> 00:16:29,316 Speaker 1: need my help, not my family, because my family is 220 00:16:29,356 --> 00:16:33,716 Speaker 1: going to be always there. And why am I putting 221 00:16:33,756 --> 00:16:38,436 Speaker 1: so much attention to others and then you're helping everybody 222 00:16:38,476 --> 00:16:43,996 Speaker 1: else but my family? But I still don't know. I 223 00:16:44,036 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 1: think it's because I cannot live if I think about myself. 224 00:16:48,916 --> 00:16:53,236 Speaker 1: You know, I abandon something or abandon somebody else because 225 00:16:53,276 --> 00:16:59,916 Speaker 1: of my own selfish reasons, I cannot live. I don't 226 00:16:59,916 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 1: think in under any circumstances leaving Laura alone on the eyes, 227 00:17:06,476 --> 00:17:10,556 Speaker 1: by yourself. If I escape and then survived, I don't 228 00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:14,596 Speaker 1: think I could have believed normal life the guilty feeling. 229 00:17:14,876 --> 00:17:17,316 Speaker 1: If Laura said, you go home, you have a child, 230 00:17:17,756 --> 00:17:20,956 Speaker 1: I'll stay here. If I said, okay, I'm gonna think 231 00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:24,276 Speaker 1: about my family better and then leave Laura there by herself, 232 00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:30,356 Speaker 1: I don't think I could have believe without any single 233 00:17:30,476 --> 00:17:34,916 Speaker 1: day without guilty feelings. If I don't align with what 234 00:17:35,036 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 1: I feel like what's right, then I would carry that 235 00:17:39,036 --> 00:17:53,076 Speaker 1: burden with on my shoulders every day. We'll be back 236 00:17:53,076 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 1: in a moment with a slight change of plans. Korean 237 00:18:00,276 --> 00:18:04,076 Speaker 1: American journalist Uni Lee and her colleague Laura Lying were 238 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:06,956 Speaker 1: captured in two thousand and nine by North Korean soldiers 239 00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:09,996 Speaker 1: and had been sentenced to twelve years in a North 240 00:18:10,076 --> 00:18:13,436 Speaker 1: Korean hard labor camp. The date for their transfer to 241 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:16,516 Speaker 1: the labor camp had not yet been set, so Una 242 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:19,436 Speaker 1: and Laura continued to spend their days in confinement and 243 00:18:19,476 --> 00:18:24,156 Speaker 1: a secluded complex in Pyengyang. One thing that really moved 244 00:18:24,196 --> 00:18:28,796 Speaker 1: me about your story is that you were surprised by 245 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 1: the kindness that the people you met in North Korea 246 00:18:31,996 --> 00:18:36,316 Speaker 1: showed you, and that it violated your former assumptions given 247 00:18:36,356 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: how North Koreans were portrayed to you growing up in 248 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:43,476 Speaker 1: South Korea. Right, Can you tell us a bit more 249 00:18:43,636 --> 00:18:49,836 Speaker 1: about Officer Lee, who was put on your case. I 250 00:18:49,876 --> 00:18:54,196 Speaker 1: remember one time I was loosing so fast in North Korea. 251 00:18:54,236 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 1: I lost about seventeen pound, and I was I started 252 00:18:59,116 --> 00:19:01,556 Speaker 1: a small but then you know, losing seventeen pound was 253 00:19:01,636 --> 00:19:04,356 Speaker 1: a lot at the time, but because of my summa 254 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:06,116 Speaker 1: was so small that I couldn't take a lot of 255 00:19:06,156 --> 00:19:09,036 Speaker 1: food at once. And you're a prisoner, so they will 256 00:19:09,116 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 1: give you any three meals a day, and I couldn't 257 00:19:11,476 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 1: need a lot each meal. And I think he noticed that. 258 00:19:16,556 --> 00:19:19,916 Speaker 1: He noticed that I couldn't need a lot, and he 259 00:19:19,996 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 1: asked if I'm getting enough meal, And one day he 260 00:19:26,316 --> 00:19:29,676 Speaker 1: brought some bread and gave to me to it. I 261 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:33,916 Speaker 1: just snack. And the other time was after I was 262 00:19:33,996 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 1: sentenced to twelve years at the North Korean court, I 263 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:46,316 Speaker 1: was frightened. I think that was the time that I 264 00:19:46,396 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: dropped everything, and then I did not want to hang 265 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:54,076 Speaker 1: on anymore. It was almost like I wanted to just 266 00:19:54,156 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 1: give up. And he wanted to somehow come for me, 267 00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:08,036 Speaker 1: and he took me outside of my compinement and I 268 00:20:08,076 --> 00:20:11,476 Speaker 1: told him I'm not not survived in the labor camp 269 00:20:11,516 --> 00:20:13,876 Speaker 1: for twelve years, and he said, we're not going to 270 00:20:13,996 --> 00:20:19,436 Speaker 1: kill you. So he did his best to come for 271 00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:26,436 Speaker 1: me when he could. Yeah, can you tell me about 272 00:20:26,476 --> 00:20:31,116 Speaker 1: the two female guards and the bond that you eventually 273 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 1: developed with them as well? Oh? Yeah, they were in 274 00:20:35,356 --> 00:20:39,916 Speaker 1: young twenties and one girl was studying English. She wanted 275 00:20:39,916 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 1: to be a translator, and her dream was to be 276 00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:45,916 Speaker 1: a translator because she wanted to tell the world how 277 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 1: how amazing her country is not that bad that like 278 00:20:49,516 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 1: you guys, portraying we have something good about our country. 279 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:56,676 Speaker 1: That was her dream. And she was very curious about 280 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:00,196 Speaker 1: some of the book that I received from home, and 281 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:03,796 Speaker 1: she wanted to have that book because she's studying English, right, 282 00:21:04,876 --> 00:21:08,036 Speaker 1: so things like that. She asked me if she can 283 00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:11,276 Speaker 1: borrow that book. Of course, you know, to give to 284 00:21:11,316 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 1: her the book. And so we did do things when 285 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:19,356 Speaker 1: people were not around us. And the other girl was 286 00:21:19,556 --> 00:21:22,476 Speaker 1: a beautiful. She had a beautiful voice. She was a 287 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:29,396 Speaker 1: really good singer. She sang to my surprise, she sang Celendians, 288 00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 1: my heart will go on all the time. But honestly, 289 00:21:35,356 --> 00:21:38,076 Speaker 1: I grew up propaganda towards North Korea, and then I 290 00:21:38,116 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 1: thought that they don't want to do anything to do 291 00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:46,116 Speaker 1: with America language, fashion or anything, you know, art culture. 292 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,196 Speaker 1: So I was actually very surprised that she was singing 293 00:21:49,196 --> 00:21:53,716 Speaker 1: the song. And one day I told her, like, you 294 00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:55,876 Speaker 1: have a beautiful voice. You want to be a singer, 295 00:21:56,236 --> 00:22:00,996 Speaker 1: and she said, no, I can't. And later I learned 296 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:04,356 Speaker 1: that to be a singer in North Korea you have 297 00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:08,196 Speaker 1: to have money, you have to have a good family 298 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:12,076 Speaker 1: background or the things to be successful in seeing career. 299 00:22:12,516 --> 00:22:14,876 Speaker 1: So she probably did not have any of those things. 300 00:22:16,436 --> 00:22:19,196 Speaker 1: So I were so bad for her. So every time 301 00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:24,676 Speaker 1: I see her that I wanted a kind of the 302 00:22:24,756 --> 00:22:27,596 Speaker 1: value her, you know. The value was like you know, 303 00:22:27,636 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 1: how good she is, and then how beautiful her voices. 304 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:36,756 Speaker 1: And when she left that job the last day, I 305 00:22:36,876 --> 00:22:39,636 Speaker 1: was really sick in my room so I couldn't move, 306 00:22:39,956 --> 00:22:44,156 Speaker 1: and she came to me and told me that I 307 00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:46,476 Speaker 1: hope that you'll get better soon. And then you'll be 308 00:22:46,556 --> 00:22:50,876 Speaker 1: with your family. So and that was our last conversation. 309 00:22:52,636 --> 00:22:54,996 Speaker 1: You know, was shown many small acts of kindness from 310 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:58,156 Speaker 1: the people she interacted with at the complex. They brought 311 00:22:58,156 --> 00:23:00,956 Speaker 1: her treats like cherries and fruit juice and turned up 312 00:23:00,956 --> 00:23:03,996 Speaker 1: the volume on songs they knew she liked. And you know, 313 00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:06,516 Speaker 1: it was charmed by how curious they were about many 314 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:10,476 Speaker 1: aspects of life in America, including day and one night stands. 315 00:23:11,436 --> 00:23:14,436 Speaker 1: We were talking about dating, and then she asked, like, 316 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:17,516 Speaker 1: is that really true? There's one nice standing it is 317 00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:21,876 Speaker 1: And then I laughed and I laughed and how did 318 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:26,436 Speaker 1: you guys even know? That's not even the country? Its 319 00:23:26,436 --> 00:23:30,676 Speaker 1: stuff is so conservative in that culture, you know, dating churlture. 320 00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:33,436 Speaker 1: And then I thought that was really funny that they 321 00:23:33,476 --> 00:23:37,076 Speaker 1: brought up. So when I said, like, I think so 322 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:40,876 Speaker 1: sometimes some people, it happens some people, not to everybody. 323 00:23:40,916 --> 00:23:42,996 Speaker 1: And then they were like, oh, you know, like a 324 00:23:43,036 --> 00:23:47,196 Speaker 1: little girls. So I felt I forgot. I forgot that 325 00:23:47,236 --> 00:23:50,476 Speaker 1: I was a prisoner. At that moment, I felt like 326 00:23:50,516 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: I was sitting in my high school classroom with my 327 00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:59,556 Speaker 1: friends and talking about all these things. I think because 328 00:23:59,596 --> 00:24:02,756 Speaker 1: of me a prisoner. They were pretty in this job 329 00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:05,276 Speaker 1: right twenty four seven, they couldn't go home, so they 330 00:24:05,356 --> 00:24:08,516 Speaker 1: complained a lot about I want to go home, I 331 00:24:08,556 --> 00:24:10,676 Speaker 1: want to hang out with my friend, and I want 332 00:24:10,676 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 1: to do this. At some point I think they fail 333 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:19,676 Speaker 1: for me that, oh, she's someone who can go home 334 00:24:20,076 --> 00:24:22,956 Speaker 1: five thousand miles from home then by herself. I heard 335 00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:29,276 Speaker 1: she has a child, and they wanted without showing too 336 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 1: much because of our relationship is guard and prisoner, so 337 00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:40,636 Speaker 1: they wanted to show their kindness very subtle way. The 338 00:24:40,796 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: guards did that when they're by themselves. Obviously did that 339 00:24:44,476 --> 00:24:48,516 Speaker 1: when you know, when someone wasn't around. So everything they do, 340 00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:52,236 Speaker 1: the kindness, they did that when no one was around. 341 00:24:53,476 --> 00:24:56,276 Speaker 1: At this point August two thousand and nine, Una and 342 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:59,076 Speaker 1: Laura had been held captive for more than four months 343 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:01,756 Speaker 1: in North Korea, and we're waiting to find out when 344 00:25:01,756 --> 00:25:05,396 Speaker 1: they be transferred to the hard labor camp. But unbeknownst 345 00:25:05,396 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 1: to Una, former President Bill Clinton was on his way 346 00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:11,516 Speaker 1: to North Ria at that moment to negotiate the release. 347 00:25:12,396 --> 00:25:14,836 Speaker 1: And it was actually Officer Lee who take you off 348 00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:17,236 Speaker 1: to this fact that Hope was on the way and 349 00:25:17,276 --> 00:25:21,356 Speaker 1: that someone very important was coming to see her. It 350 00:25:21,436 --> 00:25:26,796 Speaker 1: was a President Clinton. Oh, my god, you it was 351 00:25:27,396 --> 00:25:31,316 Speaker 1: I thought it was an angel standing and you know, 352 00:25:31,356 --> 00:25:35,196 Speaker 1: he has gray hair, and there was a window behind 353 00:25:35,276 --> 00:25:38,756 Speaker 1: him so you can see you can really see his face, 354 00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,316 Speaker 1: but with a gray hair person with a tour guy 355 00:25:41,756 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: with a very generous smile. And then he opened his arms. 356 00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:51,276 Speaker 1: So we ran to him and he embraced us and 357 00:25:51,356 --> 00:25:54,996 Speaker 1: asked us are you guys saying okay. So he brought 358 00:25:55,076 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 1: his personal physician with him, so he wanted us to 359 00:26:01,356 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 1: talk to the physician to make sure that we are 360 00:26:03,796 --> 00:26:08,756 Speaker 1: physically okay, conditioned to leave if he can make that happen. 361 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,436 Speaker 1: So he told us he has one more meeting to go, 362 00:26:13,236 --> 00:26:17,676 Speaker 1: but she can't promise anything, but we want to make 363 00:26:17,716 --> 00:26:20,636 Speaker 1: sure they are physically okay. And Laura and I were like, 364 00:26:21,036 --> 00:26:28,036 Speaker 1: we're okay, Yeah, We're okay, they can go. Yeah. I've 365 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:32,636 Speaker 1: watched the footage on YouTube, basically on loop in which 366 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 1: you're getting off the flight and you reunite with Michael 367 00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:40,756 Speaker 1: and Hannah. What's striking about the video it is that 368 00:26:41,156 --> 00:26:47,076 Speaker 1: it is a complicated joy. Right. I thought everything is 369 00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:50,836 Speaker 1: going back to normal, and then we remember everybody and 370 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:53,916 Speaker 1: I hug each other, and then you know, that's what 371 00:26:54,076 --> 00:26:57,316 Speaker 1: I was what I expected, and when Hannah hesitant to 372 00:26:57,316 --> 00:27:01,596 Speaker 1: come to me, it really ached my heart. So one 373 00:27:01,676 --> 00:27:04,876 Speaker 1: hundred forty days was a long time for this four 374 00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:11,636 Speaker 1: year old girl. She was just so confused by everything, 375 00:27:11,916 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 1: like seeing her mom after so long, and you know, 376 00:27:14,756 --> 00:27:17,276 Speaker 1: seeing these old cameras and then people, and then in 377 00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:20,276 Speaker 1: front of airport and I asked her, do you remember me? 378 00:27:20,876 --> 00:27:25,076 Speaker 1: It's mom, I said in Kournian, and she nodded, and 379 00:27:25,116 --> 00:27:27,156 Speaker 1: then can you give me a hug? And then she 380 00:27:27,236 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 1: came to me and I do. It's that moment. Just 381 00:27:35,836 --> 00:27:42,796 Speaker 1: thinking about that moment still make me choke. Yeah, yeah, 382 00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:51,596 Speaker 1: it's beautiful. So I I realized that it's been exactly 383 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:56,756 Speaker 1: twelve years since your captivity, and so in a counterfactual world, 384 00:27:56,996 --> 00:27:59,356 Speaker 1: had you been in the labor camp for twelve years, 385 00:27:59,396 --> 00:28:01,636 Speaker 1: this would have been the year that you were reunited 386 00:28:01,716 --> 00:28:05,596 Speaker 1: with your your daughter, Hannah, right, who's now sixteen? Is 387 00:28:05,636 --> 00:28:09,596 Speaker 1: that right? Yeah? We talked about it, My husband and 388 00:28:09,636 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 1: I talked about that it would have been this year 389 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:14,636 Speaker 1: that we would be reunited if I didn't come home. 390 00:28:15,236 --> 00:28:21,396 Speaker 1: And every moment is like whenever I give her hug, 391 00:28:21,556 --> 00:28:24,876 Speaker 1: whenever I you know, bless her and I and then 392 00:28:25,036 --> 00:28:30,996 Speaker 1: it's I'm thankful, I'm thankful, and thank you we without 393 00:28:31,036 --> 00:28:34,836 Speaker 1: saying we knew it, how we are blessed to be together. 394 00:28:35,676 --> 00:28:41,596 Speaker 1: M You know, we've been talking about how during that 395 00:28:41,636 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: period of your life, in the years leading up to 396 00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:47,316 Speaker 1: North Korea and then even in the days you were 397 00:28:47,356 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 1: in North Korea, UM, you were ruthlessly prioritizing others over 398 00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 1: yourself and your family. And I want to know how 399 00:28:55,316 --> 00:28:58,716 Speaker 1: that dynamic has shifted in your life, like, how, how 400 00:28:58,716 --> 00:29:03,516 Speaker 1: how that's changed for you, if at all it did it? 401 00:29:03,516 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 1: Did it? Did I put my family first before others? 402 00:29:09,156 --> 00:29:11,756 Speaker 1: I'm not very I'm not gonna say that I'm very 403 00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:14,476 Speaker 1: good at it one hundred percent. I'm changing it. No, 404 00:29:14,596 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 1: But I can I can probably tell share. I can 405 00:29:18,996 --> 00:29:22,876 Speaker 1: share that. No. I think about my family a lot more, 406 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 1: a lot more than I used to be, and then 407 00:29:26,716 --> 00:29:30,156 Speaker 1: I put them as a priorities and I don't for 408 00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:32,756 Speaker 1: them matter. I don't have a guilty feeling when I 409 00:29:32,756 --> 00:29:38,196 Speaker 1: do that anymore. So I'm very thankful. I will say that. 410 00:29:39,476 --> 00:29:42,676 Speaker 1: You know, in learning about your story, and you know, 411 00:29:42,716 --> 00:29:45,036 Speaker 1: first of all the horrors of being detained in North 412 00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:47,756 Speaker 1: Korea and all that came with that, One of the 413 00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:53,236 Speaker 1: most painful moments for me was it was just a 414 00:29:53,316 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 1: small line in your book, but for some reason it 415 00:29:55,596 --> 00:30:00,596 Speaker 1: really really moved me. You were saying that there was 416 00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:05,756 Speaker 1: a night where you slept really well and you felt 417 00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:11,556 Speaker 1: so burdened by guilt because you thought, how dare I 418 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:17,196 Speaker 1: sleep well when my family is suffering back home? And 419 00:30:17,356 --> 00:30:19,436 Speaker 1: I guess the reason that that meant so much to 420 00:30:19,476 --> 00:30:23,716 Speaker 1: me is that it showed me like the depth of 421 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:29,036 Speaker 1: complexity of what you were dealing with on a psychological level. 422 00:30:30,116 --> 00:30:32,916 Speaker 1: It's like you're both trying to minimize your pain to survive, 423 00:30:33,876 --> 00:30:36,796 Speaker 1: but then anytime you feel a moment of joy or 424 00:30:36,956 --> 00:30:45,876 Speaker 1: calm or happiness, you're saddled by guilt. You know, Maya, 425 00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 1: I still live live in that I cannot enjoy. I 426 00:30:56,156 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 1: feel like I even after I came home, and then 427 00:31:03,636 --> 00:31:06,276 Speaker 1: a lot of people pay attention to our stories, and 428 00:31:06,676 --> 00:31:12,036 Speaker 1: you know, and I had a lot. I met a 429 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:15,316 Speaker 1: lot of friends who I never knew before, and all 430 00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:20,036 Speaker 1: these things that they usually enjoy, even birthdays or happy moments, 431 00:31:20,036 --> 00:31:23,156 Speaker 1: that I couldn't enjoy it. I couldn't enjoy any happy 432 00:31:23,196 --> 00:31:27,436 Speaker 1: moment because of that guilty feeling followed me from somewhere, 433 00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:42,796 Speaker 1: and I was I was worried about what if, what 434 00:31:42,956 --> 00:31:51,796 Speaker 1: if anybody's anybody's in pain, including including the the factors 435 00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:58,876 Speaker 1: who we met. So so the moment that you want 436 00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:01,196 Speaker 1: to when you go through the moment that it's painful, 437 00:32:01,236 --> 00:32:03,596 Speaker 1: you want to get out of it right. You want 438 00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:05,716 Speaker 1: to get out of that moment and you want to 439 00:32:05,756 --> 00:32:09,636 Speaker 1: have some easy, easy time. But when I got out 440 00:32:09,636 --> 00:32:11,916 Speaker 1: of that paying for time and then I have a 441 00:32:11,916 --> 00:32:16,236 Speaker 1: little bit of peace in me, then immediately that the 442 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:21,196 Speaker 1: guilty feeling came to me to bother me. Have you 443 00:32:21,196 --> 00:32:26,836 Speaker 1: been able to make progress on that to feel that, 444 00:32:26,996 --> 00:32:29,076 Speaker 1: just like all the people you're trying to help out there, 445 00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:33,636 Speaker 1: including your family, that you you too deserve happiness and peace. 446 00:32:35,636 --> 00:32:42,476 Speaker 1: I yea, I learned. I mean I feel happy when 447 00:32:42,476 --> 00:32:47,476 Speaker 1: I say my family is happy, but my emotions are 448 00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:52,716 Speaker 1: very try. Since then, I tried to be happy. I 449 00:32:52,756 --> 00:32:55,436 Speaker 1: tried to tell my stuff that it's okay to enjoy it. 450 00:32:55,436 --> 00:32:57,996 Speaker 1: It's okay. So I tried to tell my stuff that 451 00:33:00,996 --> 00:33:04,836 Speaker 1: your story makes me reflect on the fact that as people, 452 00:33:04,916 --> 00:33:08,996 Speaker 1: we like to villainize whole swats of whole swats of people, 453 00:33:09,356 --> 00:33:12,836 Speaker 1: you know, whole countries and a lot of people are 454 00:33:12,916 --> 00:33:16,276 Speaker 1: victims of their circumstance. You know, it's very possible Officer 455 00:33:16,356 --> 00:33:19,076 Speaker 1: Lee didn't choose to be born in North Korea, right, 456 00:33:19,756 --> 00:33:22,556 Speaker 1: It's possible that he's a really good hearted human being 457 00:33:22,596 --> 00:33:26,636 Speaker 1: who is in terrible circumstances and in order to protect 458 00:33:26,636 --> 00:33:29,796 Speaker 1: his family, he had to take this job. And from 459 00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:32,756 Speaker 1: what you're describing, it seems like he brought as much 460 00:33:32,876 --> 00:33:38,756 Speaker 1: humanity as he could to an otherwise really terrible position. Yeah, 461 00:33:38,836 --> 00:33:46,276 Speaker 1: you're You're so right. Not everybody's have have that heart. Um, 462 00:33:47,396 --> 00:33:50,756 Speaker 1: try to be nice to your prisoner. They did not 463 00:33:50,916 --> 00:33:54,676 Speaker 1: have to, and some of them I could see that 464 00:33:54,796 --> 00:33:58,516 Speaker 1: it is a very bitter tourist to US and South 465 00:33:58,596 --> 00:34:01,076 Speaker 1: Korea and then did not want to be nice at all. 466 00:34:01,796 --> 00:34:05,956 Speaker 1: So I appreciate that that, even even that small kindness 467 00:34:06,036 --> 00:34:08,516 Speaker 1: that I was able to receive during that harsh time. 468 00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 1: You know, I've I've read a lot about your story 469 00:34:12,796 --> 00:34:16,196 Speaker 1: and people are saying, oh, you know, they were nice 470 00:34:16,956 --> 00:34:20,076 Speaker 1: because they were being manipulative, or she fills Stockholm syndrome 471 00:34:20,156 --> 00:34:22,036 Speaker 1: or whatnot, and I just don't buy any of that. 472 00:34:22,116 --> 00:34:25,476 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Like, at the end of the day, we 473 00:34:26,036 --> 00:34:29,796 Speaker 1: as humans can be discerning enough to know when kindness 474 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:33,916 Speaker 1: is unnecessary, but people do it anyway. I guess I 475 00:34:33,956 --> 00:34:37,836 Speaker 1: just get frustrated by that critique of your of your 476 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:41,516 Speaker 1: noticing humanity and others. I find it lightly offensive. Honestly, 477 00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:47,116 Speaker 1: do we not want to say that humanity if someone's 478 00:34:47,116 --> 00:34:52,396 Speaker 1: criticize it. I do, even even even if someone says, 479 00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:58,676 Speaker 1: is that Stockholm syndrome ten years later, eleven years or later, 480 00:34:58,716 --> 00:35:03,836 Speaker 1: I totally remember that small kindness. I'm not saying that 481 00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:09,756 Speaker 1: everything was so wonderful and it was peaceful. There were many, 482 00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:14,076 Speaker 1: many moments that I wanted to give up my life. 483 00:35:14,796 --> 00:35:17,556 Speaker 1: Do we want to hold on that memory? No, I 484 00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:22,516 Speaker 1: don't want to. I want to believe that we all 485 00:35:22,636 --> 00:35:27,316 Speaker 1: have a human as all kind heart somewhere they can 486 00:35:27,356 --> 00:35:30,476 Speaker 1: we can bring it out. Then we will understand better. 487 00:35:30,516 --> 00:35:33,476 Speaker 1: If you miss somebody on a human level, you'll have 488 00:35:33,556 --> 00:35:35,836 Speaker 1: a better understanding. You have a better open heart to 489 00:35:35,956 --> 00:35:44,436 Speaker 1: understand that person. And like Norse Koreans grow propaganda towards us, 490 00:35:44,716 --> 00:35:48,076 Speaker 1: I did the same thing. We did not understand each 491 00:35:48,116 --> 00:35:53,716 Speaker 1: other as human beings. And to me, Norse Koreans, to 492 00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:57,796 Speaker 1: me now are the people who I remember who I interacted. 493 00:35:58,196 --> 00:36:01,516 Speaker 1: They are the Norse Korean to me now before my 494 00:36:01,556 --> 00:36:04,476 Speaker 1: experience Norse Koreans or the ones that who I watched 495 00:36:04,516 --> 00:36:08,956 Speaker 1: on news. Now I'm back to my normal life. I 496 00:36:10,116 --> 00:36:13,836 Speaker 1: hate to forget about that, that the good side of 497 00:36:13,956 --> 00:36:17,316 Speaker 1: human good human side. I hate to forget about it. 498 00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:20,036 Speaker 1: It's so easy to forget and then focus on the 499 00:36:20,076 --> 00:36:24,716 Speaker 1: news and then judge others by what you the information 500 00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:28,876 Speaker 1: you received. So I'll try to remember that those people 501 00:36:28,916 --> 00:36:34,676 Speaker 1: who I interacted, that's North Korean. You know. We gotta 502 00:36:34,756 --> 00:36:38,156 Speaker 1: have that human interaction. We gotta see each other, and 503 00:36:39,916 --> 00:37:07,636 Speaker 1: I think every human being has that good side of humanity. Hey, 504 00:37:07,636 --> 00:37:10,316 Speaker 1: thanks for listening. Join me next week. When I talked 505 00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,876 Speaker 1: to doctor Dixon Shabandah, a psychiatrist in Zimbabwe who is 506 00:37:13,956 --> 00:37:16,516 Speaker 1: on a mission to help people in his community access 507 00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:20,516 Speaker 1: mental healthcare, there weren't nearly enough psychiatrists and therapists to 508 00:37:20,556 --> 00:37:23,916 Speaker 1: meet the need, so Dixon turned to a rather unorthodox 509 00:37:23,956 --> 00:37:28,996 Speaker 1: group for help, Grandmother's. I kind of realized that there 510 00:37:29,116 --> 00:37:35,996 Speaker 1: was something in having an older woman who has wisdom 511 00:37:36,196 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 1: and experience, you know, reaching out to help a young 512 00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:47,636 Speaker 1: mother who is struggling with postnatal depression, with anxiety disorder, 513 00:37:47,996 --> 00:37:52,756 Speaker 1: and just reaching out and establishing that connection that makes 514 00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:56,556 Speaker 1: that person feel comfortable, to make them feel that sense 515 00:37:56,596 --> 00:37:59,476 Speaker 1: of belonging that I am in a place where I'm 516 00:37:59,476 --> 00:38:12,116 Speaker 1: being taken care of. That was really powerful. A Slight 517 00:38:12,196 --> 00:38:15,156 Speaker 1: Change of Plans is created written an executive produce by 518 00:38:15,276 --> 00:38:19,156 Speaker 1: me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes Tyler Greene 519 00:38:19,236 --> 00:38:23,356 Speaker 1: our senior producer, Jen Guera our senior editor, Then Holiday, 520 00:38:23,396 --> 00:38:27,476 Speaker 1: our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck our producer, and Neil LaBelle 521 00:38:27,596 --> 00:38:31,396 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our theme song, and 522 00:38:31,516 --> 00:38:34,956 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 523 00:38:34,996 --> 00:38:38,116 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks 524 00:38:38,156 --> 00:38:42,236 Speaker 1: to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee Tall 525 00:38:42,316 --> 00:38:46,556 Speaker 1: Malat and Heather Fame and of course a very special 526 00:38:46,596 --> 00:38:49,916 Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change 527 00:38:49,916 --> 00:38:53,596 Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you 528 00:38:53,636 --> 00:39:01,676 Speaker 1: next week. Well, I have to just ask you what 529 00:39:01,836 --> 00:39:05,196 Speaker 1: is your relationship with Selene Dion's My Heart Will Go On? 530 00:39:08,276 --> 00:39:09,916 Speaker 1: You know, how do you feel about the song? Can 531 00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:12,676 Speaker 1: you even listen to it? You know? You know it 532 00:39:12,996 --> 00:39:15,796 Speaker 1: because she she fair in love with this song so 533 00:39:15,876 --> 00:39:18,796 Speaker 1: much that she was singing over and over, and sometimes 534 00:39:18,836 --> 00:39:21,716 Speaker 1: I wanted to close my ears, like I need to 535 00:39:21,756 --> 00:39:22,316 Speaker 1: be quiet.