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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And uh,

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Speaker 1: pain pretty much, Yeah, that's what we're talking about. That's right,

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Speaker 1: No pain, no gain. They say House of Pain, Cards

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Speaker 1: of Pain, Yeah, one of them. But it's more specifically

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Speaker 1: the Future of Pain, which, which I think is a

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Speaker 1: pretty jazzy title for a podcast, makes me want to

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Speaker 1: listen to it and find out what we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about. Yeah, And it turns out that the future

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Speaker 1: of pain is both stark and there's some hope there

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Speaker 1: as well, and also kind of like the present and

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Speaker 1: past of pain, which is humans figuring out how to

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Speaker 1: make more of it and uh, sometimes how to make

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Speaker 1: less of it. That's right, right, And then there's this

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Speaker 1: whole duality of pain is better than killing? Right maybe? Maybe? Yeah? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So I mean, if you have the choice to die

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Speaker 1: or have pain inflicted on you, which would you choose. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a matter of degree, right, I Mean, if

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Speaker 1: it's like a choice between death and an Indian burn,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably going to go for the Indian burn. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know. My brother can have like the mean

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Speaker 1: game burn is he still administering Indian birds sometimes? But

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Speaker 1: actually I was I was thinking about this quote from

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Speaker 1: Scientific American and it says pain is intimately tied to

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Speaker 1: brain functions that govern behavior and decision making, including expectation, attention,

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Speaker 1: and learning. So it makes sense that we can experience

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Speaker 1: pain and we would alter our behavior to avoid it

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Speaker 1: as much as possible. I mean, most of us would

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Speaker 1: write it tends not. It's generally one does not argue

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Speaker 1: in favor of pain when you're like stubbing your toe

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Speaker 1: to death on the coffee table at like three in

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Speaker 1: the morning. But because at that point you're kind of like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I get it. I should not ram my

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Speaker 1: little toe into the coffee table. And you know, and

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Speaker 1: and yes, my the nail is not supposed to be

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Speaker 1: halfway off. Now, you know, It's like like you kind

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Speaker 1: of reach this frustration point with your body where you

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Speaker 1: just kind of like quit letting me know obviously this.

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Speaker 1: You know that the pain signals selling me I should

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Speaker 1: not do this, I should correct this action, or that

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Speaker 1: there's something broken with me. But you know, after a while,

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Speaker 1: you're kind of like I got the memo, I'll you know,

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Speaker 1: write it on my hand. Stop giving me, you know,

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Speaker 1: incessant pain. That's right, I'll stop touching the hot stove

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Speaker 1: unless I'm Bart Simpson, of course. So I think what

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Speaker 1: this is getting to is that pain is actually really

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Speaker 1: useful and and learning how to um avoid it. But

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Speaker 1: also it's been really useful for for bunch of people.

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Speaker 1: And I think what we're talking about today more specifically

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Speaker 1: is government entities and it's it's a way to uh

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Speaker 1: control crowds. Um. And I'm thinking about the pain ray. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the pain right, which sounds like a at once a

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Speaker 1: fantastic you know sci fi idea, you know, and and

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Speaker 1: and also a terrifying one because it's I mean the

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Speaker 1: pain right because on one level, you hear and you're like,

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Speaker 1: it brings to mind this sort of like clean like

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Speaker 1: electronic You're not shooting people in the face with rubber bullets.

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Speaker 1: You're just like making them, you know, maybe feel a

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Speaker 1: little discomfort. And then you know, as a corrective action

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Speaker 1: kind of like a you know, like when when you

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Speaker 1: have to put like a shot collar on a dog

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Speaker 1: um where you're which you know, may not be that

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Speaker 1: humane in some in some interpretations. But for the most part,

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Speaker 1: you're not like whipping the dog with a bull whip

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Speaker 1: or something, so like on that level, yeah, I can

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Speaker 1: see that, you know, making sense. But on the other level,

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Speaker 1: like it's like you're pointing a ray gun at somebody

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Speaker 1: and making them like like cringe and pain. It's it's

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Speaker 1: about as horrible as any kind of pain infliction method

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Speaker 1: that we've ever had. And yeah, and to be more

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Speaker 1: specific about it, it's actually a beam of sixty four

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Speaker 1: giga hurts radio waves and it can cover our person's

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Speaker 1: entire body and it can cause agonizing pain as it

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Speaker 1: heats water and fat molecules beneath the skin surface. So

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Speaker 1: it's like being microwaves sort of. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And

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Speaker 1: supposedly it's only in three seconds um increments And so

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Speaker 1: the Department of Defense who created this and actually over

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Speaker 1: a two decade period um, they claim that the person

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Speaker 1: is not burned because of the shallow penetration in the

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Speaker 1: short time span and the low energy levels employed. But

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Speaker 1: but then again, this also implies that the person using

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Speaker 1: the weapon UH is following a set of guidelines or

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Speaker 1: rules right right right there. That always comes down to

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Speaker 1: user error because it's like tasers. You know, in theory,

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Speaker 1: a taser is a far more humane method of administering,

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Speaker 1: you know, a corrective measure against somebody. But if you're

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Speaker 1: misusing it, if you're just shooting people in the face

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Speaker 1: with the taser the drop of a hat instead of

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Speaker 1: say employing other policing techniques, which is you know, verbal communication,

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Speaker 1: well you know, then then that's not an ideal situation.

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Speaker 1: So right, right and um and it's it's interesting that

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Speaker 1: you call it a taste because it really is like

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Speaker 1: the Uber taser. I mean, the beam can hit someone

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Speaker 1: up to a third of a mile away, and of

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Speaker 1: course they're only relieved of the pay when they move

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Speaker 1: out of the way. So this was really something that

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Speaker 1: um that the Department of Defense wanted to use in Iraq,

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Speaker 1: and at the time they couldn't clear the legal hurdles.

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Speaker 1: And then they actually had it in Afghanistan, but they

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Speaker 1: removed it really without any explanation, and they claimed that

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Speaker 1: they had never used it on anyone there. So right

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Speaker 1: away you can already see like mmmmm, maybe this is

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Speaker 1: not perhaps the best idea. Although it was made as

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Speaker 1: a non lethal weapon to have crowd control without killing anyone,

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Speaker 1: I mean that was the point, right, So in a

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Speaker 1: sense it's more humane. Of course, we can't say non

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Speaker 1: lethal anymore, right, and the new preferred term is less lethal. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right, less lethal, And I guess that comes down

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Speaker 1: to you to error, right, Like, Okay, it's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be spurted out and the three second increments, but who's

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Speaker 1: to say that you can continue to do those three

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Speaker 1: seconds over and over again? Yeah, because if long, I've

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Speaker 1: long found like the quote less lethal weapons that are

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Speaker 1: often some sometimes the more horrific seeming if used wrong,

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Speaker 1: because like I think of like you'd see those guns

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Speaker 1: like shoot a big wad of paste, you know, or

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Speaker 1: some sort of view and the ideas you like stick

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Speaker 1: somebody to in place with it, you know, And it's

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Speaker 1: like every time I would see that, all I could

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Speaker 1: imagine if somebody being like shot in the face within suffocating,

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Speaker 1: and it was like that just seems like a horrific weapon. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know I've used improperly, like every weapon is eventually used, right, right,

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Speaker 1: And actually that's why they started saying less lethal, because

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Speaker 1: say rubber bullets that close range of those can kill,

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Speaker 1: Which brings us to this this rifle which is called

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Speaker 1: a less lethal rifle, which again you know, rifle less

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Speaker 1: lethal Okay, Um, this is the variable velocity rifle. That's

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Speaker 1: the one. Yeah. Lund Technologies makes it, and those those

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Speaker 1: folks are also responsible for the tickle me Elmo and

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Speaker 1: our kidding. It's so they were warming up to this

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Speaker 1: with with first let's get well a little develop the

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Speaker 1: tickle me Elmo and then the next logical leap is

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Speaker 1: um a rifle, right right, how do we use combustion

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Speaker 1: technology now now that we've mastered tickle me Elmo. Um.

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Speaker 1: But this, this is the less part of the gun

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Speaker 1: is that it uses in an explosive gas mixture in

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Speaker 1: the chamber behind the projectile, say like a rubber bullet,

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Speaker 1: rather than a conventional propellant patter like gunpowder. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you get less like a muzzle flash kind of a situation.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and it allows you to actually calibrate the

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Speaker 1: amount of pressure that you'd like, and it does that

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Speaker 1: in tandem with a laser ranger ranger offinder that um

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Speaker 1: range funder rather that measures the distance of the target

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Speaker 1: in the gun. So then it can sit there and say,

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Speaker 1: okay that that person's a hundred feet away I'm going

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Speaker 1: to you know, put in the chamber this amount of

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Speaker 1: explosion so that it doesn't actually kill the person. Right.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, they're close range, it kind of nerves them

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Speaker 1: to a certain respect at least, you know, ballistically speaking,

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Speaker 1: very painful nerve. Yeah, and if they're farther away, because

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like rifles, Um, you know, anytime you

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Speaker 1: you hear about like people firing up rifles that have

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Speaker 1: like just tendn't have de tremendously long range, and you're

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Speaker 1: like like you're you really sure that there's nothing, you know,

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Speaker 1: and then you know this within this distance. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like a shorter you know, the variable range. It'll

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Speaker 1: in theory, you know, only have as much punch as

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Speaker 1: it needs, right the target, right exactly. And so I

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Speaker 1: mean in theory it sounds good, right, Yeah, But then

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Speaker 1: there's the whole user er, and then there's the whole

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Speaker 1: fact that the Pentagon. The Pentagon laid out some cash

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Speaker 1: for for the prototype here, and um, they requested that

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Speaker 1: there was an actual shoot to kill option so they

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Speaker 1: can override the non lethal part of it and switch

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Speaker 1: over to yeah dead, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's that.

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Speaker 1: Then Then then you get into sort of like sort

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Speaker 1: of lazy policing, lazy um you know, soldiering kind of

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Speaker 1: situation where it's like, well, I'd rather just you know,

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Speaker 1: shoot to kill, so I'll just you know, switch the trigger,

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Speaker 1: right or if I imagine, if you're in the thick

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Speaker 1: of things and you have a ton of stress and

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Speaker 1: confusion and chaos going on, uh, you know, you might.

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you wouldn't need to switch over to

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Speaker 1: the shoot to kill option, but it's you know, we're humans,

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Speaker 1: and that's a tremendous amount of pressure to be under.

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Speaker 1: And yes, you're you're you know, if if the purposes

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Speaker 1: to disperse the crowd, then you do have this rifle

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Speaker 1: to do so. But yeah, the sort of decisions that

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Speaker 1: happen in that split second you just never know. So

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Speaker 1: and and it's difficult to even like judge that, you know,

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Speaker 1: having never been enough like a combat situation, like you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a situation, you know, suddenly it's like

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Speaker 1: we should I said this to to lethal or nerf

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, my life as at stake or

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Speaker 1: the life you know, the lives of innocent civilians or

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Speaker 1: you know, the people I'm fighting with yeah. And what

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Speaker 1: I think interesting about both of these technologies, the beam

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Speaker 1: and the rifle, is that clearly there's a need for

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Speaker 1: for something to to allow for crowd control, particularly if

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Speaker 1: you're in Afghanistan or Iraq. But you know, you you

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Speaker 1: you have to you have to probably weigh the Okay,

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Speaker 1: we want to have the hearts and minds of people

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Speaker 1: against the we need some sort of force to control

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Speaker 1: the crowd situation. And so I do wonder, particularly with

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Speaker 1: the beam, if that's one of the reasons why I

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Speaker 1: didn't necessarily make it through there. I mean, well, also,

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Speaker 1: I mean I hope that it didn't actually like have

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Speaker 1: the name pain Ray, because that's just that's just shy um,

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Speaker 1: you know, marketing. It's like, hey, we've got this great thing.

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Speaker 1: It's called the pain ray, and it's a totally humane way.

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Speaker 1: It's like, whoa, it sounds kind of creepy. Can't you

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Speaker 1: call it something like very like you know, variable velocity

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Speaker 1: rifle that sounds the police stand back rifle? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: And actually that rifle is nicknamed the Big Hurt, the

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Speaker 1: Big Hurt, which again, come on, guys, marketing, Yeah, or

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, it's like it needs a separate title

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Speaker 1: for the guys using it, so they'll feel like they're

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Speaker 1: not going out there like like, all right, guys, if

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Speaker 1: these guys get out of hand, you'll need to pull

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Speaker 1: out your discomfort wand on them because that, you know,

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Speaker 1: how how can you like confidently stride out into into

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Speaker 1: battle or know to face the crowd? Okay, I just

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Speaker 1: I just imagine someone with like Little Wizard's cloak on

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Speaker 1: with their wand um, which would seem much more benevolent,

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Speaker 1: I suppose. UM. But I was thinking about this too,

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Speaker 1: is is if it were to be put in use

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Speaker 1: both of those technologies, would it really help the situation?

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Speaker 1: And the reason I asked that is because I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about whether or not people could become desensitized to that

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Speaker 1: sort of pain. Um. There was an article published in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three by a Harvard and enthusiologist and he

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Speaker 1: was basically saying that the soldiers wounded in battle complained

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Speaker 1: a lot less than those who had similar pains or

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Speaker 1: injuries in a civilian hospital. And the idea is that

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Speaker 1: the wound was less important in the face of survival

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Speaker 1: and that and there's also sort of an honorable connotation

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Speaker 1: to it. UM. So It's sort of made me wonder

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Speaker 1: if you had this constant barrage of pain inducing beams,

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Speaker 1: would would it become a badge of honor to undergo

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Speaker 1: something like that? And also would your own endorphins kick

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Speaker 1: in and and and block the pain. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's like you see you know these these like riot

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Speaker 1: uh you know images from around the world where will

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Speaker 1: be like, you know, the riot guards lined up, and

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Speaker 1: they'll be something like just some guy just you know,

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Speaker 1: really just manning up or berserking you know out and

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Speaker 1: just running at them, or you know, throwing a rock

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Speaker 1: or you know or some sort of like a you know,

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Speaker 1: flaming stick or something. And and yeah, it's like it

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Speaker 1: could with a slight discomfort beam really work in that

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Speaker 1: situation or right right, And not that humans are rats,

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Speaker 1: but there is one study um that that was conducted

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Speaker 1: jointly by the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee and u c

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Speaker 1: l A. And they found that rats don't respond to

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Speaker 1: pain uh simuli in the presence of a predator or

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Speaker 1: in an environment that provokes fear. So if there's an

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Speaker 1: imminent danger, it actually suppresses the experience of pain through

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Speaker 1: endogenous opioids. So I mean, you know, again we're not rats,

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Speaker 1: but you have to sort of look at that correlation

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Speaker 1: and say, is it the same thing that when you

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Speaker 1: have a fear response that you do have these endorphins

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Speaker 1: going through your body, and particularly in something like that,

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Speaker 1: what you're you're in danger and I mean you're we

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Speaker 1: already know this with athletes who not so they're in danger,

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Speaker 1: but they're performing these crazy high levels and when they

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Speaker 1: become injured, the dopamines kick in and they're able to

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Speaker 1: slug through the race and limp off the field or

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Speaker 1: the track or or what have you and experienced that

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Speaker 1: pain later. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's a that

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Speaker 1: definitely raises a lot of questions about about less lethal

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Speaker 1: weapons are just sort of like the just the idea

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Speaker 1: of you know, using pain as a corrective measure and

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Speaker 1: high density uh you know confrontations like maybe like feelings

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Speaker 1: of ickiness are better, like if you shame and ickiness. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like if you were to sort of like you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of like a Ghostbusters to slime gun, you know,

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Speaker 1: wherever you sort of like hose everybody Betty down in

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Speaker 1: that like it doesn't not enough pressure to like you know,

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Speaker 1: knock people down. Or you know, actually inflict physical pain,

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Speaker 1: but suddenly everybody feels kind of gross and they just

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Speaker 1: want to go home take a shower, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: And there are the alternative there's like the long range

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Speaker 1: acoustic signals that are you know, that horrible shrieking, um

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Speaker 1: piercing sound that will disperse a crowd for certain um.

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Speaker 1: I think that one of the concerns though, particularly with

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Speaker 1: the beam, is that there's a company called Raytheon which

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Speaker 1: is conducting a case study in a California detention center

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Speaker 1: and they're using that beam on prisoners there, which is

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Speaker 1: sort of like WHOA okay, And of course the a

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Speaker 1: c l U has stepped in to say, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: we might have some civil rights issues here, guys. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it's an it's an auditory pain kind of ray. Basically,

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Speaker 1: it's like we're gonna blast you with physically painful noise. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I get against another situation when you have a

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Speaker 1: prison riot, the six are really high. You do want

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Speaker 1: something there to help you manage the situation. But again,

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Speaker 1: the potential for misuse is pretty high. I gotta say,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not Johnny Cash here, like doing a

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Speaker 1: concert for for the prisoners. I get that, you know

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Speaker 1: that there are certain things going on there that you

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Speaker 1: need to try to control, but it does seem to

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Speaker 1: me a little bit of auspicious. Yeah, it comes down

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Speaker 1: to like flipping a button to inflict pain versus like

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Speaker 1: beating somebody with a baton, Like both are are in

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Speaker 1: a in a way, both are equally inhumane, but one

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Speaker 1: is far easier. And I don't know, you can do

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Speaker 1: a lot of philosophical questions when when it comes down

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Speaker 1: to how do you choose to inflict pain on people?

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Speaker 1: And and and ultimately how do you get around doing it?

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Speaker 1: To begin with? Right? And then I guess to your points,

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Speaker 1: you start to objectify the person even more. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and does that make a does that make the situation

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Speaker 1: better or worse? These are the actual philosophical questions. But nonetheless, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you gotta ask them. But you know, then you look

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Speaker 1: at the flip side, and you know, out of the

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Speaker 1: military and all all out of all the warfare, particularly

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Speaker 1: in I Rif and Afghanistan, you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: soldiers returning and they've got um horrible injuries and major

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Speaker 1: amounts of chronic pain. And that's a real problem too.

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Speaker 1: So you have pain on the other side here, and

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Speaker 1: I guess the flip side of that would be, how

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Speaker 1: do you lessen pain? We've we've figured out how to

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Speaker 1: inflict it, but is there a good viable way to

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Speaker 1: deal with pain um in the in the best of

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Speaker 1: the future sense, you know, the abilities that we have, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I mean basically, I mean if if if we

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Speaker 1: can prevent pain, you know, or or or lessen it,

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Speaker 1: uh to some degramming that that helps, just in the

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Speaker 1: treatment of the core problems, you know, right, like like

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Speaker 1: you know, no nobody should have to live with chronic pain. Basically, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the key. And of course we've got drugs to

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Speaker 1: help with it. But the problem with that is that

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Speaker 1: they're pretty addictive. Yeah, because because the drug is doing

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Speaker 1: generally doing more than just removing the pain. It's also

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Speaker 1: it also has an opiate effect to it, right, and

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Speaker 1: especially in cases where it's you know, stuff like oxy cotton,

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Speaker 1: you know, just you know, classic morphine um situation all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. Right. So it's removing the plant, it's blocking

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Speaker 1: the pain, but it's also providing a high which you know,

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Speaker 1: put your body in that loop and gets all your

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Speaker 1: receptors all lined up. To say, hey, more and more UM.

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Speaker 1: But the good news is that there's a team of

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Speaker 1: doctors who actually see the future of wartime pain control.

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Speaker 1: UM in a new form of anesthesia called continuous peripheral

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Speaker 1: nerve block, and it takes a more targeted approach by

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Speaker 1: switching off only the pain signals coming from the injured limb,

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Speaker 1: so it leaves the patient's vital signs intact in the

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Speaker 1: cortical functions unimpaired. And the good news with that is

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Speaker 1: that you know you can you can help treat the

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Speaker 1: source of the pain without creating that loop of addiction. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or just my understanding is also you're not turning off

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Speaker 1: that limb, so it's not like, oh, I can't feel

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Speaker 1: my leg anymore because I don't want my need to hurt.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's more targeted than that, yeah, which has

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Speaker 1: got to help when you're recuperating from an injury or

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Speaker 1: dealing with chronic pain like that. But if you think

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Speaker 1: about it, UM, it's it's sort of like an elementary

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Speaker 1: form of UM an epidrol block. It's just much more targeted.

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Speaker 1: Of course, in the epadrol you you know you can't

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Speaker 1: feel your legs or anything but uh or so people say,

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Speaker 1: But this is this is a lot smarter choice. And

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Speaker 1: and you know, of course, warfare is never going to

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Speaker 1: go away, so being able to use something like this

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Speaker 1: is really great for soldiers who are returning. Warfare might

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Speaker 1: go away. Let's let's not completely rule it out. Feeling

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Speaker 1: like a pessimist this morning. This presentation is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Intel sponsors of tomorrow. But these blocks are

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Speaker 1: actually made possible by this invention of small microprocess or

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Speaker 1: controlled pumps. So they bathe nerves in this these non

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Speaker 1: addictive drugs, and that's what blocks the transmission of pain signals.

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Speaker 1: And the cool thing about this is that the pumps

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Speaker 1: can also be used after they're treating in the hospital,

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Speaker 1: so they can use this for a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: administer the pump themselves and be able to control the pain.

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Speaker 1: Cool but without yeah, without but without self administering an

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Speaker 1: opiate effect exactly, Yeah, generally not be good. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: then in the same category, we've got another sort of

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Speaker 1: erasing pain technology. Yeah, this is the one that seen

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Speaker 1: in a couple of different articles. They make the inevitable

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Speaker 1: comparison to the movie Eternal Sunshine of the spotless mind

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Speaker 1: the um what Charlie Kaufman screenplay Jim carry Yeah, about

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Speaker 1: the whole like, Oh, I have a painful memory, go

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Speaker 1: in and erase that memory so I don't have to

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Speaker 1: deal with it anymore. Right, I'm gonna be tortured by

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Speaker 1: this horrible breakup or this awful thing that happened. Um

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Speaker 1: And they don't necessarily erase specific memories, though, is its

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Speaker 1: right with this technology? Yeah? This, this technology is not

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Speaker 1: quite as far fetched in surgical it's a yeah. It

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Speaker 1: comes from researchers at the University of Toronto, So Korea

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Speaker 1: and Bristol UM and Bristol uh. And it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: specifically designed for chronic pain. And we're talking generally, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, high levels of chronic pain, like not just

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Speaker 1: a list. Oh I'd rather sleep in, but oh I

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Speaker 1: need to take something so I can get out of bed,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the morning. That's generally what they're they're

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Speaker 1: talking about here, not like stubbed toes and or even

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, sort of marginally sort backs specific

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Speaker 1: specifically you know, intense pain um and and and also

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Speaker 1: people who have malfunctioning um um pathways and their synapses

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Speaker 1: which which got them to re experience the pain due

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Speaker 1: to abnormal persistence of their mental record of that pain.

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Speaker 1: So it is kind of tight. It's kind of tied

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Speaker 1: into the memory of the pain, you know, but but

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Speaker 1: not like oh you know, it's not not not like

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Speaker 1: an emotional thing like in the movie. Um. They mainly

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Speaker 1: they do this by inhibiting a molecule called p k

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Speaker 1: m zeta, and this is a molecule involved in the

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Speaker 1: storage of memories that reside um and a part of

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Speaker 1: the brain involved in the perception of pain. So they've

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Speaker 1: successfully eliminated they can access successfully eliminate the painful memory

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Speaker 1: at the heart of some of some kinds of neuropathic pain.

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Speaker 1: And so far apparently the tested worked on mice. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so it's sort of and that what I thought

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Speaker 1: was interesting about this. It's it's jamming that, right, So

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Speaker 1: it's basically saying, okay, you can't the number of receptors

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Speaker 1: get reduced and then the memories of that disappear. And

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Speaker 1: that's what they've seen in the mice at least. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I guess that begs the question of it, can

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Speaker 1: you know they can develop drugs to inhibit painful memories

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Speaker 1: by targeting this molecule, but what about other forms of

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Speaker 1: memory or yeah, you know what does that do to

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Speaker 1: the mice? You know, the the memories that they have

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Speaker 1: are how their brain functions. Yeah, because again we we

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Speaker 1: go back to like the purpose of pain, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the meaning of pain, and it has as much as

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Speaker 1: we're like, oh, you know, I wish I you know,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have to suffer. It's like it's it's a vital

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Speaker 1: part of who we are. Like to steal a quick

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Speaker 1: quote from William Faulkner, he's had given the choice between

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Speaker 1: the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain

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Speaker 1: or U. C. S. Lewis had a bit and of

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Speaker 1: course he wrote the problem of pain, and uh, this

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Speaker 1: is you know, this is more of a theological um

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Speaker 1: you know, standpoint. But he says, God whispers to us

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00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 1: in our pleasures, speaks in our conscious but shouts in

427
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.

428
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: So I mean, you know, you get into Buddhism to

429
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: where it's pain. You know, suffering is a part of

430
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: who we are and you can't have if you just

431
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 1: seek out pleasure, you're gonna get you're gonna get more pain.

432
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 1: You gotta have that balance, so I can't have one

433
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,719
Speaker 1: without the other. Yeah, it's just part of the feedback system.

434
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: You know. It's kind of you know, it's kind of

435
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: like when they're coming up with you know, trying to

436
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 1: come up with robots that can that can can move

437
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: and interact in a social environment, you kind of have

438
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: to come up with like a kind of a pain sensation.

439
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 1: You have to sort of create it, you know, for

440
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: for robots to a certain extent, or at least a

441
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 1: machine version of pain. Well, that's really interesting to think

442
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: about that. That's like it's almost like the robots have

443
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: the inability, like the congenital inability to to feel pain. Um,

444
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 1: and so yeah, they if we didn't program that, then

445
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: they might smush us into little pieces. Yeah, or you know,

446
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: it's just it's just like it's a it's again, it

447
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: just comes down to am I Am I touching a pan?

448
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: It's too hot? Should I be wearing you know, a glove?

449
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: Oh did I burn my finger? And I need to

450
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: have correct you know, do something. And then also just

451
00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: like behavior stuff. You know, it's like, um, you you

452
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 1: have that really painful mistake be at a physical pain

453
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: or emotional pain, and uh, that tends to be something

454
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: you don't do again. You know, you've learned from that pain.

455
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: So so yeah, what if we end up, you know,

456
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: erasing or lessening pains that are shaping who we are? Like,

457
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: what what happens? Then you're get into some weird ground there, potentially. No, No,

458
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: it's an interesting proposition. Do I mean, could you You're right,

459
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the question is could you experience

460
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: happiness at all if you didn't know the difference? Because

461
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: we've all encounted those people who seemed happy all the

462
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: time and they're just boring, you know, we are. Yeah,

463
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 1: that's that's when I just pinch them. Yeah they're learn

464
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: from that. Yeah, all right, I don't I think we've

465
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: covered the future of pain as much as we can

466
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: with this topic. I mean, this topic is fascinating and

467
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: there's so many different ways we can go with it.

468
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, next time you see someone who's happy, pinch them, yeah,

469
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: and then and then quiz them on what they've learned. So, hey,

470
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: we have a little uh listener, may here, Let's see

471
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 1: what do we have? Well, let's see, um, all right,

472
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: we have some listener mail from one Laverne and uh

473
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 1: they ride. Hey guys, my name is Laverne Um and

474
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: that's it. No, there's more. I was just listening to

475
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: your show about vertical living, and the scenario as you

476
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: described it would be logically impossible. The reason I say

477
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: that is because if you really lived on, say the

478
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: two hundred floor of that building, and all the work

479
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: was done by robots, I agree that would be great.

480
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: But if all the work is done by robots, I

481
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: wish you would explain to me how you're going to

482
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: learn to you're going to be able to earn money

483
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: to buy food to keep your yourself alive. Even if

484
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: it's grown in the building, they're still costs involved in

485
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: growing it, and there is no way that it would

486
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: be free um. And they're going to expand on this

487
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: little more and then say so. My prediction is it

488
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: will never happen, or if it does, then it will

489
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: be the start of the end of civilization because if

490
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,479
Speaker 1: money drives innovation, innovation will stop and in another century

491
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: the robots will be worn out and no one would

492
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: have this else to survive. But that's just the theory

493
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: of a stone worker stuck in my shop listening to

494
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: podcasts while working. So if you disagree with me, please

495
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: let me know. This listener raises some important to you know, questions,

496
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: because yeah, as we if we find ourselves in a

497
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: situation where we hand over and increasingly large slice of

498
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: our lives to machines, and you, I mean, you get

499
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: into the just the basic problem of utopia and uh yeah,

500
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: and actually you and I sort of had this outside

501
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: conversation about this. Yeah, um, because when we were talking you,

502
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: I think you were making me feel better about the

503
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: technological singularity, and I think you were saying like that

504
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: the best case scenario would be that we just we

505
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: don't exchange money anymore, there is no need for money. Yeah,

506
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: you'd have to it, would you know, be more of

507
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: like a just a complete like socialist kind of situation,

508
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: A situation like I always keep coming back to the

509
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: Culture series by E. N. M. Banks, where he describes

510
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: a future, far future culture where humans basically do what

511
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: they want and leave leave the lead this anarchist head

512
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: and his lifestyle, and the robots are more or less

513
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: their caretakers that take care of everything. And in the

514
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: way he he doesn't know, like he lays it out

515
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: in in a in a way where you you get

516
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: a sense of loss, there's something that's missing, um, but

517
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: from humanity. But then it's also then you know, people

518
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: are still doing what they want and they're you know,

519
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: engaging in their hobbies, et cetera. So it's you know,

520
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: it's problematic, uh and thought provoking. But but yeah, it

521
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: also ties really into to this podcast, like the whole

522
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: idea of pain, like utopia. I was just thinking about

523
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: that too. Are they are they they're being served by

524
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: the robots, but they're probably going around pinching each other. Yeah,

525
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: just to say I remember, yeah, do they just turn it?

526
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: Is it? You know, it basically turns into any of

527
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: the other Wes Anderson movies, Like I'm thinking about the

528
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: The Darshing Limited where it just where there's not an

529
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: actual father figure and it's just about three like rich

530
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: privileged guys that are horrible. Yeah. Yeah, so like life

531
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: becomes that film them as opposed to the life Aquatic. Wow,

532
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: I guess that's not my favorite life Aquatic. I love

533
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: ars No No, me too. But there there's some interesting scenes. Actually,

534
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: that opening mini movie is pretty interesting. Oh yeah, yeah,

535
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 1: that was beautifull shot starcle but anyway, uh Laverne, thanks

536
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: for the thoughts that I think it's it's all copper

537
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: poking stuff, thought provoking. Thank you. And on a much

538
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: smaller email we received from one Nick and Nick Right

539
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: wrote in to say, listen to your podcast Life on

540
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: the last night, and after hearing about your interests talking

541
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: about me in battles on sky bridges, I threw this

542
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: together in MS paint paint. Hope you like it. I'll

543
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: hold it up to the microphone, but you can't really

544
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: hear it, um, but heat do an awesome MS paint

545
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: image of stick figures fighting on the skybridge. So yeah,

546
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: that's pretty awesome. We need to post on our Facebook page.

547
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: I should, yes, yes, when this comes out, I'll try

548
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: and remember to post it because it's exactly like it

549
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: appeared in my brain. You you dropped right into his

550
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: brain there next. So there you have it. If you know,

551
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: if you want to check out this image UM that

552
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: we're talking about, or um you know, engage with us

553
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: in the social media's, then you know, you can come

554
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: by our Twitter or Facebook pages where Blow the Mind

555
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: on both of those. You can also drop us an

556
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: email at Blow the Mind at how stuff Works dot

557
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

558
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com. To learn more

559
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: about the podcast, click on the podcast icon in the

560
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: upper right corner of our homepage. The How Stuff Works

561
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: iPhone app has a ride. Download it today on iTunes