1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:16,960
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hello Lipsmarties.

2
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,200
Speaker 1: I am so excited about today's guest because we're really

3
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,160
Speaker 1: taking a stroll down memory lane together, and that memory

4
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 1: lane first begins at our intersection of hot teen TV

5
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,040
Speaker 1: shows in the early odts. Ben Mackenzie is here today.

6
00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: I am absolutely going to pick his brain about the

7
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,800
Speaker 1: era that both the oc and Montree Hill launched him.

8
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,919
Speaker 1: I have so many questions for him about how that

9
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,880
Speaker 1: time period felt in his life. And I'm also really

10
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,320
Speaker 1: excited to talk to him about Southland and Gotham, two

11
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,200
Speaker 1: shows that I think were just so incredible. He also

12
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,520
Speaker 1: has had such a beautiful film career. Junebug was one

13
00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 1: of my favorite movies ever and happened to be his

14
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,600
Speaker 1: film debut. He has worked on Broadway, and he's also

15
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,840
Speaker 1: managed to become a New York Times best selling author.

16
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,560
Speaker 1: And not for you know, a novel or a narrative

17
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,039
Speaker 1: story about a character, but for a research project that

18
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: he found himself in the midst of during the pandemic.

19
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,880
Speaker 1: He realized he was kind of the perfect mark for cryptocurrency.

20
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 1: A dad stuck at home with some cash in his pocket,

21
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,640
Speaker 1: worried about his family and becoming aware of this vague

22
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,760
Speaker 1: notion that all these people were supposedly making heaps of

23
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 1: money on something that he, despite having an economics degree,

24
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,160
Speaker 1: didn't really understand. So realizing that these sort of grandiose

25
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 1: promises of a crypto utopia sounded like the plot of

26
00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,480
Speaker 1: a film rather than anything based in reality, Ben decided

27
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 1: to dive in and he had to ask, am I crazy?

28
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 1: Or is this a total scam? This led to him

29
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,360
Speaker 1: writing the New York Times best selling book Easy Money, Cryptocurrency,

30
00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,000
Speaker 1: Casino Capitalism, and the Golden Age of Fraud. It is,

31
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,119
Speaker 1: honestly such a fascinating conversation, and his earned expertise in

32
00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,720
Speaker 1: this realm not only fascinates me, but lemn testifying in

33
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,000
Speaker 1: front of the Senate. So I can't wait to talk

34
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,480
Speaker 1: to him about his journey from shooting a hot TV

35
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,359
Speaker 1: show on the beach playing a team to testifying in

36
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,560
Speaker 1: front of the Senate on the darker sides of the

37
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,160
Speaker 1: deep web and our economy. Ben mackenzie is genuinely someone

38
00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 1: who fascinates me, who I feel so lucky to call

39
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,160
Speaker 1: a friend. And I think you guys are going to

40
00:02:35,200 --> 00:03:03,160
Speaker 1: love this interview. Enjoy. My goodness, what an amazing trip

41
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 1: it is in the very best way to have you

42
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,519
Speaker 1: on the show today. We were giggling kind of before

43
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,000
Speaker 1: we started recording about the fact that, you know, we

44
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,800
Speaker 1: grew up essentially together on TV in a really wild time,

45
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,840
Speaker 1: and it's so fun to see you now in your role,

46
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,359
Speaker 1: you know, as this wonderful man and husband and father

47
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 1: and author. And I'm just like, we made it out,

48
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,359
Speaker 1: didn't we.

49
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,400
Speaker 2: We made it out, man, We did it. We did it.

50
00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 2: It was man, the early ods for wild it.

51
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,080
Speaker 1: Was such a weird time.

52
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I forget how old were you when when you

53
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 2: Scott started on Wantreho, I.

54
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,800
Speaker 1: Had been twenty one for I want to say ten

55
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 1: days or something.

56
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,600
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, you were even younger than me.

57
00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: How old were you when the OC started?

58
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 2: Twenties?

59
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 3: Early early to mid twenties major okay, yeah, yeah, the

60
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 3: way the way that you do on network TV or

61
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,200
Speaker 3: did about that totally. Yeah, I'd graduated from college and

62
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,000
Speaker 3: I was like all tracking and.

63
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,840
Speaker 2: I ended up in LA And I mean, I'm sure

64
00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 2: you can relate. Like One Tree Hill it was. It

65
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 2: was One Tree Hill in the OC, and it was

66
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 2: like being shot out of a cannon.

67
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,200
Speaker 1: Its strange, totally. And I remember thinking about you guys

68
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,280
Speaker 1: a lot, because you know, I grew up in LA

69
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,200
Speaker 1: and I went to college here and then I had

70
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,440
Speaker 1: to leave to shoot the show, and you guys were here,

71
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 1: like in the thick of it, and we we had

72
00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,520
Speaker 1: our own set of mess from being so isolated in

73
00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,599
Speaker 1: this tiny little bubble together. But then you guys, you know,

74
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 1: you sort of had the whole big city at your fingertips.

75
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 1: But I imagine that was also super weird.

76
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It's like good and bad, right. Yeah, you're

77
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,320
Speaker 2: in the middle of it, which is fun, but also

78
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,599
Speaker 2: a little a little dangerous or a little you know,

79
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,840
Speaker 2: you're just you're on display, right, like you're doing this

80
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,080
Speaker 2: thing that you're still learning how to do. I mean,

81
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,680
Speaker 2: we're always learning how to do stuff. I feel like

82
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,159
Speaker 2: you learn every day, but particularly at that moment, I

83
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,279
Speaker 2: had no experience. I didn't really know what it was

84
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,120
Speaker 2: all about. And so doing that in a public way,

85
00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,440
Speaker 2: you know, in Los Angeles, it's quite the trip. Yeah. Yeah,

86
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 2: it must have been a whild to be in North

87
00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 2: Carolina and be on TV and sort of I'm sure

88
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:40,920
Speaker 2: in that town you were.

89
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,440
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, rock stars. Well, and the thing I think

90
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,039
Speaker 1: that was the weirdest about it. You know, Wilmington's really

91
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 1: a college town, so everybody around was just a little

92
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,920
Speaker 1: younger than us. And then it's also a very popular

93
00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 1: place to retire because it's so beautifull. So it was

94
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 1: sort of like, I remember this moment where the girls

95
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:05,919
Speaker 1: and I were like, are we supposed to dake like

96
00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 1: a college kid or are we supposed to like actually

97
00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 1: not run away creeped out by like these retired golf

98
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,719
Speaker 1: dads that are like our grandfather's age that are looking

99
00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,839
Speaker 1: for their round two or three trophy wives, Like, what

100
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:22,240
Speaker 1: are we going to do here?

101
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:22,640
Speaker 4: Man?

102
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,479
Speaker 1: It was so it was everything was just a little

103
00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,440
Speaker 1: bit weird, But I did really love it, and I

104
00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 1: have so much nostalgia for Wilmington ever since, like it's

105
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,040
Speaker 1: one of my favorite places to go back and visit.

106
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 1: So I will say that was sort of a cool

107
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,719
Speaker 1: thing for us about a location. It it does feel

108
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,719
Speaker 1: like this place that's very precious to us. Well, I

109
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,440
Speaker 1: love that we have that very weird era of teen

110
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,920
Speaker 1: television in common. But I actually I really like to

111
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,440
Speaker 1: ask people questions that go like a little further back,

112
00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,160
Speaker 1: not just necessarily beginning of career, but I think when

113
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,800
Speaker 1: you become a public figure, whether it's like we did

114
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,080
Speaker 1: in our twenties or you're doing the incredibly cool work

115
00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 1: you're doing now, people meet you as a public person,

116
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,920
Speaker 1: a successful adult. And I'm always really curious if, because

117
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,320
Speaker 1: they say hindsight's twenty twenty, right, Like, if you look

118
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 1: back at your childhood, if you could rewind and see

119
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,000
Speaker 1: Ben as an eight year old kid or a nine

120
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,080
Speaker 1: year old kid, did you want to tell stories? Did

121
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 1: you want to write books? Like do you see the

122
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,000
Speaker 1: through line of the person you are today in who

123
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 1: you were as a child, or were you a completely

124
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 1: different kid and everything sort of happened by accident.

125
00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 2: Right now, I can see the through line from my family.

126
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,800
Speaker 2: But at the time, I wanted to play football. Really

127
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,960
Speaker 2: I was Texas football fanatic. I played through high school.

128
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:07,000
Speaker 2: I think in sixth grade I did a play and

129
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,200
Speaker 2: I had a great time. But then I went and

130
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 2: I was at a private school, and then I went

131
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:17,320
Speaker 2: to a public high school. And you know, it felt

132
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 2: at the time in the nineteen nineties in Texas that

133
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,600
Speaker 2: I had to like pick you know, it was and

134
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 2: it was no competition for me at the time, I

135
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,160
Speaker 2: really wanted to play football and I didn't have the

136
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,280
Speaker 2: bravery to like also try to act at the same time.

137
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 2: It really wasn't on my on my radar, so I

138
00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,560
Speaker 2: only got back into it in college. But growing up,

139
00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,559
Speaker 2: my my mother is a former English teacher and now

140
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,960
Speaker 2: a poet, and my father's a lawyer, and I have

141
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,200
Speaker 2: an uncle who's a screenwriter, so I didn't have any

142
00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,760
Speaker 2: direct connection to Hollywood, but I knew the value of

143
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:58,559
Speaker 2: words and of stories, and I saw my uncle wrote

144
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,720
Speaker 2: a play that was on Broadway when I was like twelve, okay,

145
00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,640
Speaker 2: and we made the big trek from from Texas, and

146
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,800
Speaker 2: I have two younger brothers. My mother bought us matching

147
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,760
Speaker 2: sports jackets, so we would like look all nice for that.

148
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,560
Speaker 2: For theatrical experience, yeah, my uncle's play is a seven

149
00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:24,200
Speaker 2: hour long play. It's a notoriously called the Kentucky Cycle.

150
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,320
Speaker 2: You watch first chunk like three or four hours, you

151
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,320
Speaker 2: have dinner, and you come back. It's the whole experience.

152
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,959
Speaker 2: And I was riveted. I was captivated, and so I

153
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,559
Speaker 2: think that was a was a clear, you know, signal,

154
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,120
Speaker 2: But really only looking back on it, it really didn't

155
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,080
Speaker 2: really get get get into it until until college, until

156
00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 2: I was about eighteen and and but that was also

157
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 2: kind of random. Just like sawf a play was holding auditions, auditioned.

158
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,680
Speaker 2: I had an amazing time. A guy who would become

159
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,720
Speaker 2: a friend had decided to do Romeo and Juliet with

160
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,480
Speaker 2: the capulets being played by black actors and the moncuse

161
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 2: played by white actors and CHRISTI Virginia, where I went

162
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,360
Speaker 2: to school, is a very racially self segregated school. It's

163
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,160
Speaker 2: like a sort of a really awful racial past and

164
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 2: it's present. I mean, I guess I haven't been there

165
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 2: in a while, so I don't know what it is now.

166
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 2: But even in the nineties or early two thousands, it

167
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 2: was pretty pretty self segregated. And so we did this

168
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,240
Speaker 2: production of Bromo and Juliette I played the friar that

169
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,719
Speaker 2: was not Romeo andifacation there. Yeah, it became a thing,

170
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,040
Speaker 2: though it became We got this huge hall, like it

171
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,360
Speaker 2: wasn't in the drama department, but we got this huge

172
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,720
Speaker 2: This was normally a lecture hall, and hundreds of people

173
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,600
Speaker 2: showed up every night, and we made like the CBS

174
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 2: National News and I was like, Wow, this is really amazing.

175
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,200
Speaker 2: You can you can tell a story and people will

176
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,520
Speaker 2: will listen. I think that's when I got hooked.

177
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so cool. And what an interesting thing too,

178
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 1: that a you know, a classic shakespeareance story could be

179
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 1: so relevant and also shine a light on, you know,

180
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,960
Speaker 1: an issue in your community that everyone was aware of

181
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 1: and perhaps didn't know how to talk about, but could

182
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:19,679
Speaker 1: talk about through art.

183
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I met people doing the show that

184
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,200
Speaker 2: I during the play that I that I never would

185
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,680
Speaker 2: have met, which is strange, right, because you're literally passing

186
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 2: them every day, but because of the sort of the

187
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:40,439
Speaker 2: nature of the school, it just didn't happen. But that

188
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 2: I was like, the guy that played to its father

189
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,040
Speaker 2: was the safety of the football team. This is like

190
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,959
Speaker 2: a D one school, so it's like absolutely jacked huge,

191
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,400
Speaker 2: And I remember doing a drinking contest with him at

192
00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,679
Speaker 2: one point, which was a really bad.

193
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 1: Idea, ill fated choice.

194
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 2: Huh, but lots of bonding, go, Yeah, lots of bond

195
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 2: that's cool. Yeah, it was cool. And so then I

196
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,360
Speaker 2: just kept kind of doing it in college, and I

197
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 2: still got my degrees and other things, but I was

198
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,600
Speaker 2: just in the drama department a lot doing and doing

199
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:16,480
Speaker 2: plays and stuff.

200
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, well the economics degree, will you see the through

201
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 1: line now with the book, which we'll get to. But

202
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,679
Speaker 1: from college and and really leaning into theater, is that

203
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,000
Speaker 1: what motivated you to move to LA to really give

204
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:31,440
Speaker 1: it a try?

205
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 2: Although I actually moved to New York first. I Yeah,

206
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:42,760
Speaker 2: I graduated in one. I did summerstock theater at Williamstown

207
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 2: Theater Festival.

208
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,480
Speaker 1: Which I've always wanted to do.

209
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,320
Speaker 2: That It's great, you got to do it, Like now

210
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,719
Speaker 2: now you can like do it right. They'll like give

211
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 2: you level house and I mean they don't pay you,

212
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,880
Speaker 2: but you know, it's it's a great experience. Yeah. Williamstown

213
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,200
Speaker 2: is this revered theater festival in miss Chuse. It's western.

214
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 2: It was absolutely beautiful to where you know, Williams College

215
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,840
Speaker 2: is a little college town. And I got the equivalent

216
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:15,560
Speaker 2: of an internship there. And you know, so you're like

217
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 2: sort of you're building the sets, you're startriking the sets,

218
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 2: you're doing the kind of all of the groundwork, and

219
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,520
Speaker 2: like you might get a couple of lines or something.

220
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 2: All these amazing actors from New York theater were up

221
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:32,240
Speaker 2: there performing. I remember seeing Sam Rockwell and Joco Ivanik Joco,

222
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,080
Speaker 2: I forget, I forget how with Joko's last names. Anyway,

223
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,600
Speaker 2: they did the dumb Waiter and Zoos story as a

224
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 2: duo where they would like flip parts every other night,

225
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,000
Speaker 2: two handed plays for those listing that are sort of

226
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,760
Speaker 2: iconic amongst like actors and people always do them in

227
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,640
Speaker 2: auditions and stuff, and they were performing them and there

228
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 2: was just I mean, it's just phenomenal, just sort of

229
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,720
Speaker 2: off the off the charts. So I started. I started

230
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 2: there kind of just getting a sense light of the land.

231
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,440
Speaker 2: And then I moved to New York in August of

232
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,319
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, like two weeks later, nine eleven hapened.

233
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:12,560
Speaker 1: Wow.

234
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was weird, and I was waiting tables and

235
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,559
Speaker 2: I was trying to get work. There wasn't a lot

236
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,560
Speaker 2: of work to be had, obviously given the situation, and

237
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,880
Speaker 2: particularly if you were starting out, you know. And so

238
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,960
Speaker 2: early the next year I moved to LA on the

239
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,920
Speaker 2: advice of a friend, a friend of my uncle who

240
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 2: kind of let me crash on his floor, and I

241
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:40,600
Speaker 2: auditioned't a lot, got nothing, and a year later I

242
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,280
Speaker 2: got the others. So and yeah, it was a circuitist

243
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:45,920
Speaker 2: journey to get sure.

244
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's like they say, it takes ten

245
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,680
Speaker 1: years to become an overnight success. You know, people don't

246
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 1: know how much of a grind it really is to

247
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,960
Speaker 1: become a working actor and then to remain one. We'll

248
00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: be back in just a minute, but here's a word

249
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:09,200
Speaker 1: from our sponsors. Was it jarring for you? I mean,

250
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,040
Speaker 1: I know we touched on this a little bit earlier,

251
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,280
Speaker 1: sort of laughing about what a crazy time it was,

252
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,760
Speaker 1: But was it jarring to just be catapulted into that

253
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 1: level of you know, fame, attention. You were in La

254
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,320
Speaker 1: so you guys were you were getting tailed by paparazzi.

255
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 1: It was the some say the Golden Age. I'd call

256
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 1: it like the horror age of gossip blogs. Like everything

257
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 1: was just so ugly, was it. I know it was

258
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 1: really hard for me as a woman because you know, misogyny,

259
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 1: but I can't imagine it it was less hard for

260
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 1: you even as a man. It's got to be pretty

261
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 1: shocking to be, you know, shoved into the deep end

262
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:48,640
Speaker 1: like that.

263
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 2: It does, it does. I do remember feeling like, oh,

264
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,000
Speaker 2: I'm like I'm a commodity, Like I'm a thing, right,

265
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,840
Speaker 2: like they've done that with us. I think it's a

266
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,640
Speaker 2: far worse for women, and still is. But even then,

267
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 2: it was like put on the Ryan Atwood clothes and

268
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,440
Speaker 2: do the hair and like, you know, then they're gonna

269
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 2: sell magazines or they're gonna you know, you're just you're

270
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 2: just out there in a way where before you were

271
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,560
Speaker 2: totally private, no one cared, and now it's hard to

272
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 2: feel that they really care about you as a person

273
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,280
Speaker 2: because they don't know you as a person. They care

274
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,640
Speaker 2: about this thing that's been it's been created, which you

275
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,200
Speaker 2: know you're proud of, but is Yeah, it was. It

276
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,360
Speaker 2: was a very strange experience. And I was the oldest

277
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 2: member of the cast and it was the one who'd

278
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 2: gone through college, and I was like this is very strange.

279
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 2: You know, like this is really fun, but I was terrified.

280
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 2: I was like this is gonna end at some point

281
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 2: and then I've got to like get the next job

282
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 2: and like I've got to like sort of you know,

283
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,240
Speaker 2: I was terrified of getting like sort of put in

284
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:06,200
Speaker 2: that teen idol actor box, which a lot totally people. Yeah, yeah,

285
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,639
Speaker 2: did you have this feeling? I mean, I don't know

286
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 2: what it was like, Oh.

287
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,080
Speaker 1: My god, yeah, it was. So it was very surreal

288
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 1: and honestly kind of scary for me. And you forget

289
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 1: that people don't know you, you know, they really project

290
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 1: and I realized how separate the projection was for me

291
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 1: on our show versus my life. Actually not that long ago,

292
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 1: my girlfriends that I did the show with during the pandemic,

293
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,840
Speaker 1: we started a rewatch podcast a because we were trapped

294
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 1: in our homes and we wanted to be working and

295
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,480
Speaker 1: be because we all were like, we sort of have

296
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 1: some trauma from this thing, Like we have love and

297
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 1: great memories, but there's also a lot of weird shit.

298
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 1: Maybe we could work through it together. And I made

299
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 1: this remark about how shocking it was to land in

300
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,919
Speaker 1: this world where I just turned twenty one. I was

301
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,119
Speaker 1: playing this you know, archetype of the popular girl in

302
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: high school, and like, I'd had three years of co

303
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,480
Speaker 1: ed college, but I had come from a really small

304
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 1: all girls school. There were fifty five girls in my

305
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,879
Speaker 1: graduating class. And with the fifty five of us were

306
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,440
Speaker 1: together from seventh through twelfth grade. And Hillary and Joy

307
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,119
Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, oh my god, of course

308
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: you were so uncomfortable. We didn't even put it together,

309
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,760
Speaker 1: like you never did high school with boys, You never

310
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 1: were you never had any of these experiences. And then

311
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,680
Speaker 1: you know, I was the one who was playing this

312
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,439
Speaker 1: like very sexed up cheerleader, and I was just like.

313
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,680
Speaker 4: I'm really uncomfortable, you guys, but I had to learn

314
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,119
Speaker 4: to kind of navigate like, oh, because I play this

315
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 4: girl on TV, people think I am this girl in

316
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 4: my life, and it was really yeah, it was just

317
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 4: really uncomfortable.

318
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,399
Speaker 2: All I remember having these feelings of like, it's so

319
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,680
Speaker 2: hard to create your own identity when all anyone knows

320
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 2: of you is of course the thing that you've you know,

321
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 2: and you're very grateful that it's happened, but of course

322
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 2: they don't know you for you, what would they know

323
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 2: about you other than this role you're playing on TV.

324
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 2: It was so hard to separate your identity well.

325
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 1: And when you're trying to figure out who you are

326
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: right right, and then you know everyone's telling you who

327
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,879
Speaker 1: you are and what we found. I don't know if

328
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 1: you guys experienced this as the as the men in

329
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,360
Speaker 1: that world, but particularly as the women. We were very

330
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,640
Speaker 1: much assigned an archetype and then that was how we

331
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 1: were treated in public, how we were treated in the press,

332
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: and so for me as a you know, I'm the

333
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 1: first person who wants to organize the outing. I'm everyone

334
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: jokes that I'm like a cruise director in my friend group.

335
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: I'm a really social person. I love community, but I'm

336
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 1: also really nerdy and sometimes intellectual to a fault. And

337
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 1: it was very strange to be like, oh, I'm being

338
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 1: put in the super sexual, like hot, dumb girl space

339
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 1: and then that's how that's how like stories about my

340
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,640
Speaker 1: life are being told in these magazines. This doesn't actually

341
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 1: have anything to do with me. And it was really surreal.

342
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 1: And you know, Hillary got cast as the like angry,

343
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 1: like tough girl, and Joy really got put into the

344
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: space of like being the girl next door who has

345
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 1: the voice of an angel, which, by the way, she does,

346
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 1: so it's like that blurred the line, right, Like her

347
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: music in her real life actually added to this assignment

348
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 1: of this character for her and it we all were

349
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 1: sort of like, wait, where do I what's mine and

350
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: what's not mine? And how do I claim my own

351
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 1: identity here? But I would imagine in ways, I feel

352
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: like we're finally starting to talk about the pressure that

353
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 1: was also put on the boys like you guys were

354
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 1: all expected to look like superheroes and be like these

355
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,439
Speaker 1: suave dudes, and I don't know, I would imagine it

356
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: was weird for you too.

357
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think it was

358
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 2: worse for for but because for it is still hard

359
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 2: for women. Yeah. I was also older, but but but yeah,

360
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 2: it was strange kind of I thought of as this.

361
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 2: It was tough for me because I was I was

362
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 2: the bad boy quote unquote right like not really who

363
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 2: I am, you know, more of a dork. So it

364
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 2: was sort of funny. I think I knew enough, like

365
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 2: I'd watched enough James Dean to be like, okay, I

366
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 2: can like do a do a take here, you know

367
00:21:53,960 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: version of this. But the trick was not too like

368
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 2: in a way, I felt like the trick was did

369
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 2: not buy into your own hype and to kind of

370
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: like be able to separate your own identity from yeah character.

371
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 2: It's so tricky, so difficult years of therapy.

372
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, because not only do you have to not

373
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 1: buy into your hype, you also can't take personally what

374
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: isn't true about you. That circulates like wildfire, and that's

375
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 1: hard to thicken your skin. In a way, especially when

376
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: your job as an actor is to be completely emotionally open.

377
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: You're just like, who designed this system? It feels wrong?

378
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels it's I mean, I think there's a

379
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 2: reason why sort of the younger you start and more

380
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 2: difficult can be maintained because it's so careers are so volatile,

381
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: and creating your own understanding of who you are as

382
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 2: a person the thing that no one can take away

383
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: from you. Yeah, right, you are the things that you

384
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 2: are versus the things that people perceive you to be

385
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: based on whatever work you've done. It's just it's just

386
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: so difficult. I think when you when you start off

387
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 2: really young, like as a child actor, and you're getting

388
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: that that that gratification, right, you're rewarded every time you

389
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: you know, you dance, you're a good, good little monkey

390
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: and you dance correctly. You know, it's a really messed

391
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: up system. Well, I think it's probably gotten better hopefully

392
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 2: since we were there, but I don't.

393
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: Know, I hope. So I don't want to be like

394
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: a total down or about it either, because you know,

395
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: I know I said this for my experience certainly, and

396
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: I imagine you have this. You probably also have amazing

397
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: memories like and I I don't know if you have

398
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: relationships with you know, the folks you worked with, but

399
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: what what are the what are the good memories like

400
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: when when I say that to you, what are the

401
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: things that start popping in your head that were amazing

402
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: about that first work experience?

403
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 2: It was amazing, It was it was it was a blast.

404
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 2: I mean we were We'd throw these big party scenes

405
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: and there would be you know, dozens, if not hundreds

406
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 2: of people there, and Adam and I got along like,

407
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: you know, like a house on fire, particularly in the

408
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: early days when it was just like there was like

409
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 2: this brief period when we shot the pilot Fox songs

410
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: like quick, get it on the air, build the set,

411
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: stud it in and down. But like at this we

412
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 2: had a summer where we were able to kind of

413
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: you know, it was sort of like feeling like you're

414
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: on the edge of a wave and it's gonna like

415
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: get to shore, but like for the moment you's kinna

416
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: you know, zen out. Yeah, I remember, I remember. I

417
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 2: don't know, I had a really really good time just

418
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: kind of also figuring out how to act on cameras.

419
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: You know, I had no experience really almost almost literally none.

420
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: So I remember going to the camera truck at lunch

421
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: and the DP would let me watch takes so that

422
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: I could just like see what it looked like. Wow

423
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 2: h and that was really helpful. Like at a started

424
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: pointed to not do that because then it can become

425
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: too sort of self referential or something you can like

426
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: get in your head a little bit. But like at

427
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: the time, I was like, oh, right, if I literally

428
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: just like Eyeline stuff like sort of like basic acting

429
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 2: on camera stuff that I just you know, I didn't.

430
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,719
Speaker 2: I didn't know there was no acting on camera class

431
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: at the University of Virginia at the time, because why

432
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: were there undergraduate you know. So but yeah, no, we

433
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: had we had we had we had a blast. We

434
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 2: had a really really really good time, and it was

435
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: awesome to be in southern California, you know, on the beach.

436
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh man, I know there'd be times where I'd

437
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: see like something from your show and we'd be in

438
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: a hurricane season and I'd be like those lucky fuggers

439
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: they don't even know.

440
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. The worst, the biggest complaint was driving to Manhattan

441
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 2: Beach Studios.

442
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: YEA, from that is honestly quite far.

443
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: It's it's a long time.

444
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: So I read something recently that made me laugh. You

445
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: said that you let your seven year old see a

446
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: couple of episodes of the show and then she was

447
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: super into it, and you were like, wait a minute,

448
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is like appropriate for you.

449
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: How do you navigate that as a dad?

450
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: Well, clearly poorly, So I shouldn't have let her watch it.

451
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: I was just kind of feeling like I've made this

452
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: turn in my career where you know, I took a

453
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: break from acting for a bit and so you know,

454
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: Gotham ended in twenty nineteen, I did a play and

455
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: then the pandemic hit and I took this weird detour,

456
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 2: and so I think I was feeling like I needed

457
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: to show my kids like this is you know, this

458
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: is what I've done, and I couldn't show them Gotham

459
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 2: was too violent. Yeah, definitely couldnt Southland. That would not

460
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 2: be appropriate at all. And so I was like, oh,

461
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 2: you o cee, you know, like it's a family show.

462
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 2: It was on Nowere televienis sure it's fine. And then

463
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, right in the pilot, there's well,

464
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 2: there's obviously lots of sex. There's cocaine. Oh boy, you know, deeply,

465
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: deeply inappropriate use of alcohol or unhealthy as a volcohol.

466
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: I mean it was it was a mass and so

467
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: Francis of course loved it. She was like, she's like,

468
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: this is awesome.

469
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, like whoa dad, you were like a rock star.

470
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: You're like, don't know, no, I mean.

471
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: She wouldn't even give me that credit, but she was

472
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: definitely interested in, you know, the whole scene. Yeah, she's

473
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: seven going on, you know, thirteen, so she's like, teenagers

474
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 2: are well, now she's a she's teenagers are you know

475
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 2: the mystical beasts that she like sees, not actually experienced. Yeah,

476
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: it was really fun, but that I needed to turn

477
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: off and give it a few years totally.

478
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: You're like, let's maybe go back to animated films for

479
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: a while.

480
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I should him, Yeah I should them.

481
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: Okay, that feels cool. What what was that shift like

482
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: for you though, because you know, it's obviously hilarious to

483
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 1: think about it through the eyes of your kids, but

484
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: you you did really turn in terms of the kind

485
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: of subject matter that your shows were about. Like to

486
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: your point, Southland and Gotham, you know, they were intense

487
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: and violent and dark and so amazing. Was it? Was

488
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: it like a choice for you to really want to

489
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: go in the opposite direction of a dramatized family story

490
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: like the OC, Or were they just scripts that you

491
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: happened to read like and everything worked out?

492
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you can relate

493
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: to this, but I think there's this misperception that actors

494
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: have controller for their careers choice you man, Yes, it's like,

495
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 2: why'd you do it? Well, they offered it to me,

496
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: or like.

497
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: I because it's the one I booked.

498
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they let me do it, and they also

499
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: were willing to pay me for it, so I did it. Yeah,

500
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: I mean the OC, I was like, you know, obviously

501
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: thrilled beyond belief to get it, and that was just

502
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: kind of luck. After that, I did. I think the

503
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: one job I really purposely set out to get with Southland,

504
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: like that was like I needed to. I read that

505
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 2: script from Anne Betterment and I thought, this is fantastic.

506
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: Such a great writer.

507
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: She's an unbelievable also Creatorovan. Yeah, just an extraordinary writer,

508
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: incredible eye for detail. John Wells was producing it. It

509
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: was theoretically going to take over the or it did

510
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: actually for a brief moment take over the er time

511
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 2: slot on Thursday nights, and I told my manager at

512
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: the time, like, I really this is the thing, so

513
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: kind of knived to like get the meeting and then

514
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: quote unquote offered to read in the room, even though

515
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: I wasn't supposed to be auditioning, you know, the whole

516
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: like kind of game of it. And and it worked,

517
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: I guess because they hired me. So that's that's the

518
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: probably the most purposeful I've ever been in my career.

519
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: Was like I have to do something that's completely different,

520
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: both for like, you know, kind of more perception reasons,

521
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: but also just because I needed to do it personally,

522
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,719
Speaker 2: Like I needed to feel like I was growing and

523
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: learning and out on the edge. And that's what so

524
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: often was. It was shot in the streets of LA

525
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: It was highly improvised. It was you could say whatever

526
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: the hell you wanted and we would just bleep it.

527
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: Training with the cops and being around real cops, real

528
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: gang members and all that, it was like it was,

529
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: you know, that was like graduate school for acting. I guess, right,

530
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: if like youc was undergrad that was like and it

531
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: was scary because like you would realize when you showed up,

532
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: oh I haven't prepared enough. I'm not really quite there,

533
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, And you're just going to

534
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: have to kind of roll with it because they're not

535
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: going to stop for you.

536
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: How does that present What was the first time that

537
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: you felt that?

538
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: Well, thankfully, I was working with an actor named Michael

539
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,239
Speaker 2: Kutletz who was my training partner and the show so

540
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: basically the pilot takes place in the very What was

541
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: good about it was the character was written as a

542
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: naive young rookie cop. So my naivete as a as

543
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: a as worked for me. But Michael really great. Really

544
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: He's a big, tough, strong dude, and he was very

545
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 2: he was he was aware instantly that like the show

546
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: was gonna at least our plot line on the show.

547
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: There was obviously the were amazing. Regina King was, you know,

548
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: a lead actor, Sean Hattiseee. We had amazing actors on it.

549
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: But for our plot line and the training officer and

550
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: the rookie cop, like our relationship was gonna, you know,

551
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: determine whether that worked or not. And so we needed

552
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: to become fast friends. And then as soon as the

553
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: camera started rolling, he would just be an absolute dick

554
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: to me because that was the character. He was like,

555
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: gonna just you know, tell me I'm an idiot. And

556
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: there was a freedom in that. I think that really

557
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: helped to know that I was actually supported as soon

558
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: as the camera stop rolling, but when we were rolling,

559
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: I was free to be as uncomfortable and naive and

560
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: clumsy in a way as I actually was. And then

561
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: over time the character evolved, and that was really we

562
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: did five seasons of that short seasons, but the five seasons,

563
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: and that was really probably the most change I've had

564
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: in a character that I've done, which it was really enjoyable.

565
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: That's so cool. And now a word from our sponsors

566
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: who make the show possible. And then how did Gotham happen?

567
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: Gotham happened because so both the OC and Southam were

568
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: Warner Brothers shows, and when Southland was Southland lived this

569
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: really weird life where it was on NBC and then

570
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: it was on T and T. That was actually in

571
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 2: the middle of the strike. I think that last big

572
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: strike was in there somewhere. Anyway, it got sort of

573
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: jumped to batted around a little bit, and so by

574
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: the time it was just that season. It was it

575
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: was kind of probably gonna have to wrap up. And

576
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: Peter Roff, who is the guy who ran Warner Brothers TV,

577
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: you know, was I guess I'd done right by him,

578
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 2: and so he wanted to get me on a deal.

579
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: And so I stayed with Warner Brothers and Bruno and

580
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: and I did a pilot right as that show is ending,

581
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 2: which never went a series, but Bruno Heller created that,

582
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: and so Bruno wrote the part of Jim Gordon with

583
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: me in mind. So I got like the most amazing

584
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: a year later, you know, we did this pilot, didn't

585
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: go anywhere, but we had a great time. An a

586
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: year later, I got the most amazing boice mail from Bruno,

587
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 2: who's this you know, charming British fella, you know, saying

588
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,919
Speaker 2: I've written this part, you know, with you in mind.

589
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: You should take a read. And you know, no one's

590
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: ever written for me, and you know, yeah, I'll take

591
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: a look at playing the future Commissioner of Gordon in

592
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: a Batman TV show. Sure, yeah, let me just count

593
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: to three before I say yes. Right, but but yeah,

594
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: that's that's how that that's how that went. It was

595
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: just kind of I was stayed in the fold and

596
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 2: and then and then that brought me to New York.

597
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: That was kind of like how I because I'd been

598
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: in LA for over a decade at that point, and

599
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: that was actually one of the attractive things about the

600
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: show as well. It was like I was kind of

601
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: just ready to I love LA, but I was just

602
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: ready to shake it up, you know.

603
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: Ready to do something different. And then you know, you

604
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 1: got to go to New York. You're in the center

605
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: of theater, which we know you love, and then you

606
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: know unexpected bonus of going to do this amazing show,

607
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: which by the way, having something written for you is

608
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: like such a feather in your cap moment. And on

609
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: top of it all, you met your wife and it's

610
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: like what a cool just like what a cool thing

611
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: happened to you.

612
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: It was amazing, It was incredible. I mean I I

613
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: was in New York, a city that I love dearly,

614
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: and you know, we had all of the toys, all

615
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: of the you know, he was really going to show

616
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: off New York, right, So yeah, you wanted a two

617
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: hundred foot crane and fifty extras and you know, shut

618
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: down Fifth Avenue or whatever you would do it, or

619
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 2: at least for a few seas as you would. And yeah,

620
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: and then Marina came on the show pretty early on,

621
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: like sort of midway through the first season, and I

622
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: just remember connecting with her in a way that I'd

623
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: really never connected with anyone before. Yeah, I generally don't

624
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 2: they actors that much, and I don't think she did either.

625
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, it was It was definitely a kind of

626
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: a process of like, are we really going to do this,

627
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: because there's obviously, as you know, like you know, actors

628
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: get together time while working. It can do really well,

629
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: but it can also go really poorly. But I think

630
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 2: we were really at a place in our lives where

631
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: we were ready for the real thing. We were ready

632
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 2: to kind of do it, right. I. I actually met

633
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: her on the OC probably ten years prior, and she

634
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: says I blew her off. She says that that she

635
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: like hit on me and I didn't pay her any mind.

636
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: I don't think that's true, but it's the story she

637
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: loves to tell.

638
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: But really she trolls you about it a little bit.

639
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean again, you should should have met

640
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 2: the wedding. It was like all the whole speech was

641
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: about what an idiot I am. I'm like, yeah, I

642
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: probably probably was like that. Definitely, it was like that. Uh.

643
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 2: I think we met when like met for the second time,

644
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: but met in a real way when it was right.

645
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not a believer and fate, but this felt,

646
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: it felt you know, it felt incredibly fortunate to meet

647
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: her and to sort of start it for me.

648
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think though that that's something that's so cool,

649
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, like what we were talking about earlier, that

650
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: through line to your artistry and what you were passionate

651
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: about as a kid. I really think that. You know,

652
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: sometimes cliches become cliches because they're just so true, and

653
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: that idea of hindsight being twenty twenty. Of course you

654
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: wouldn't have seen it the first time you met her,

655
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: but in hindsight you look back and you go, oh,

656
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: maybe there was a reason that at certain points me

657
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: and this person kept being put in the same rooms.

658
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: Like I've had that in my life, and when it

659
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: hits you, you just go, oh, my god, am I

660
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: the recipient of magic? Or am I an absolute idiot

661
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: that I didn't get it until I got it? And

662
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: maybe it's both.

663
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think it's both Well actually said at

664
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: the wedding, like you rarely do get a second chance

665
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 2: to make a first impression.

666
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: Oh I love that.

667
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: Don't mess it up.

668
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: That's really cool, and I love that you talk about that.

669
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: You know, you have to weigh when is it worth

670
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: a risk and what do you do with a connection?

671
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: You know, and you guys had to do that in

672
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: the context of being on this job together. And the

673
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: added layer on top of that is, oh, if this

674
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: is the real thing. We're both public people. How do

675
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: you figure out how to navigate what you allow in

676
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: because you want to be able to celebrate your life,

677
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: and then what you keep away from prying eyes so

678
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: that you have some privacy in your relationship, Like, how

679
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: do the two of you navigate that?

680
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 2: I think being in New York is very helpful, just

681
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: kind of away from There's a lot a lot going

682
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: on here, a lot of stuff shoots and that was

683
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: a great theater scene. There's we live in a neighborhood

684
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 2: just shock full of actors. There's actors ever, but it's

685
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: very low key. You know, there's not there's not paparazzi,

686
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: there's not you know, the place where the actors go

687
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: for lunch, there's you know whatever, it's a very you know,

688
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: and there's a sort of a New York anonymity to it.

689
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: And so I think in that way it kind of

690
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: works out great because we can go we can dress

691
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: up all up and go to you know, a function.

692
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: But for the most part, we're just here with our kids,

693
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: you know, taking them to school and you know, waiting

694
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: for the phone to ring or trying to trying to

695
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,959
Speaker 2: make it ring. And it's tricky. We now have three

696
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: children and juggling the careers with like our kids are

697
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 2: now getting to an age at least that the older

698
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: one and maybe even the older two to like we

699
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: have to balance like, Okay, if we're going to do

700
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: a job somewhere, like, how is that going to work?

701
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: Because they need to be in school. We want to

702
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: give them. We want them to have as normal a

703
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: child quote unquote normal a childhood or or have a schedule,

704
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: a have a have a consistency, but at the same

705
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: time be able to enjoy the perks of this, which

706
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 2: is to be able to travel and to be able

707
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: to see it. So it's definitely a lot. It's a

708
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: lot of work. I mean, we were just talking about

709
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: it right before it came on, Like there's always you know,

710
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: new challenges too, and and you know Marine's career is

711
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 2: like on fire, so it's like kind of you know,

712
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: you want to go for it, right, Like how often

713
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: do you have a moment like she's in Deadpool three?

714
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: Like how often you a movie that's like, you know,

715
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: going to make a bajillion dollars? You need to you

716
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: owe it to yourself, like you put in the work,

717
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 2: like go go for it, you know, make makes But

718
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: also you know, you got three kids at home who like,

719
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: you know, don't totally understand that, right, Yeah, they don't

720
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: get what's going on. So but I have to say,

721
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: were I feel like we're doing a pretty good job.

722
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: It seems like it so cool. And then I think

723
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: one of the things that geeked me the most again

724
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: because we've known each other, you know, both from like

725
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: being literal neighbors for a time to you know, from Afar,

726
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: but being like I see you, how you doing this

727
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: is weird? This industry is crazy, you know.

728
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: Like two blocks away from each other. I know it

729
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 2: was so.

730
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: Cool, but I I love the paths of advocacy. You

731
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: know that you and I in particular have taken and

732
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: I know what a trip it was when I got

733
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: to testify in front of Congress and I've seen you

734
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: on the hill doing it, and like I just was like, yes,

735
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: I love this for for like my friend over there,

736
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: and to see that you dove into this world of

737
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: research when the world shut down, because you could kind

738
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: of smell that something was fishy and you followed that instinct.

739
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm just like kind of obsessed with this. So can

740
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: you walk us through how that happened? I mean, I

741
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: know you got an economics degree, you know, in college

742
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: in Virginia, But the world of cryptocurrency and the implications

743
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: of it in society and policy and the economy, it's

744
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: so mind boggling, and I think really hard for a

745
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,720
Speaker 1: lot of people to understand. Who didn't, you know, spend

746
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: lockdown doing the deep dive that you did. So like

747
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: talk to me about how this began.

748
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, So I was already kind of in retrospect.

749
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 2: I was like searching for a new thing. I had

750
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 2: finished Gotha. I did a play kind of trying to

751
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: shake it up and like get some of that old

752
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: mojo back. Like I think if you do a lot

753
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: of TV, you can kind of get into this rhythm

754
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: that's like a bit repetitive. So when that ended, the pandemic,

755
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 2: actually I was just about to do a pilot and

756
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: the pandemic hit, and you know, it was everything was

757
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: everything was over. We were all, you know, put on ice,

758
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 2: and I remember kind of looking at the newspaper or

759
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: maybe I guess it was my computer screen that had

760
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: the news on it and drifting over to like the markets,

761
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: which I never really paid attention to, even though I

762
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: had an economics degree, and kind of noticing that they

763
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 2: had gone obviously crashed down when COVID hit and then

764
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 2: they were roaring back and trying to make sense of it,

765
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: and noticing this thing called crypto, which a friend of

766
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: mine introduced me to and he said, you know, you've

767
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: got to invest in it. He actually used to live

768
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: with me at that house. I had a little guest house.

769
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: And oh yeah.

770
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I loved Dave, but he's given me terrible

771
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: financial advice before. He had encouraged me to invest some

772
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: penny stock when I was in my twenties, and you know,

773
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: put a little money into it and lost it, as

774
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: did he, and so I just became kind of curious

775
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: about it from that angle, like wait a minute, this

776
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: the words don't make sense here, right, Like from a

777
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: just like a linguistic you know, I'm a bit of

778
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 2: an ina attentive guy when it comes to the stuff.

779
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: My mother's an English teacher and my dad's lawyer. So like,

780
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 2: you know, you use a word like currency and that

781
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: means money, but money and economics like it does things

782
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 2: like I can't call this glass money because I can't

783
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: use it to buy stuff. But that's one of the

784
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: things that the money is supposed to do, is we're

785
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: supposed to be able to buy and sell stuff with it.

786
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 2: But you couldn't really do that with crypto. I mean,

787
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 2: people talk about how theoretically you could, but you really

788
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: can't for a variety of reasons. And so I fell

789
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: like an investment. But if it was an investment, it

790
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: was unclear what it was investment in because lines of

791
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: computer code stored on these ledgers called blockchains, and it

792
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 2: just had all the hallmarks of kind of well of

793
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: fraud and even more serious crimes potentially like money laundering

794
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 2: and financing of terrorists and all sorts of things. And

795
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 2: I just became obsessed, like I was sort of fascinated

796
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 2: from the intellectual level of what is this desire to

797
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: have this money that isn't from the government. Like I

798
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 2: can understand the libertarian aspirations there, but historically speaking, it

799
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 2: doesn't work. Like if the money doesn't come to the government,

800
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: you know, logical questions where it's going to come from.

801
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: It's going to come from corporations, from private actors, private money,

802
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: which is a thing we tried in the nineteenth century

803
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 2: and it didn't work, in part because of fraud. Because

804
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: once you know, we all have the bone to pick

805
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: up the government. But if the if the government's not

806
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: issuing the money and instead corporations are issuing it, you

807
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 2: can see where the you know, where the pitfalls would be, right,

808
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 2: Like what's stopped them from gaining the system and from

809
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: sort of manipulating these quote unquote currencies.

810
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you even see it now with inflation.

811
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 1: You know, you see for example, like massive food corporations

812
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: doing two hundred and fifty million dollars buybacks of stock

813
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: and then raising their prices by twenty percent and saying

814
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,919
Speaker 1: it's inflation, and it's like, it's not inflation. You're you're

815
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: doing it. You made a decision to raise prices for

816
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: customers while enriching yourselves. And you're blaming the economy, but

817
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: it's not the economy you chose it. The corporation made

818
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: the decision. Like it's crazy.

819
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: There's a lot of research out there that shows that

820
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: the pricing power that these corporations have have had is

821
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: really it might even be the majority of the reason

822
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 2: for the inflation. It's certainly a large part of it.

823
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 2: You know, the supply chains are messed up because of COVID,

824
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: But like, what's the difference between a legitimate supply chain

825
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: issue and just being able to gouge people because you

826
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: can say, oh, it's the supply chain, you.

827
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: Know, right, And I find that really interesting because we're

828
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: seeing the damage being done by that kind of corporate

829
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: greed and we're not even talking about the corporations being

830
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: the ones deciding what is money. So what you're saying,

831
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: it's like, if you think it's bad, now, imagine how

832
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: much worse it could be with this this being assigned

833
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: the value of currency, Like what are we talking about?

834
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 1: It's made up right.

835
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: Right, exactly and exactly, And but of course money is

836
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 2: made up right like money, we also created but it

837
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: comes it's a social construct, and it's only as strong

838
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 2: as the social consensus that underlies it. And so you know,

839
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 2: these things, these currencies that we that we made up there.

840
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: You know, in terms of in the world, the average

841
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 2: currency is actually pretty volatile. It's just that we're in

842
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 2: the United States and we're actually blessed with a very

843
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 2: stable currency. So we sort of don't understand that. Ironically enough,

844
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: given like the critical kind of like took off here.

845
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: But it was this story of of well, on a

846
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 2: simple level, it was like a get rich quick scheme, right,

847
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: it was like who doesn't want yeah, yeah, But but

848
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 2: it had all these trappings of like emancipation and you know, independence,

849
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 2: decentralization that you would sort of be free with your

850
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 2: money to do whatever you wanted with it. But all

851
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: of the stories, as I looked into them, none of

852
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 2: them were really true. They were reactions to things that

853
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 2: were real, right. There were reactions to you know, corportization

854
00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: or centralization of certain economic actors in the economy. They

855
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: were also i think given a lot of power because

856
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 2: the subprime crisis was such a disaster and so many

857
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 2: people got screwed over there that like faith in our

858
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: economic system really was undercut potentially you know, forever, but

859
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 2: certainly for a generation. You know, Crypto took off amongst

860
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: these young men for eighteen to twenty nine ish. Those guys,

861
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 2: like they saw their parents lose their house, They saw

862
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: the destabilizing nature of subprime And so when you put

863
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 2: those guys alone, you know, in the pandemic, isolated from

864
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: each other online all the time, right, and they see

865
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 2: this thing that their friends are supposedly making money on,

866
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: like why wouldn't they go for it? And then it

867
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 2: just as a ponzi, It just like took on a

868
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: life of its own, and so it just got bigger

869
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 2: and bigger and bigger, and the celebrities got involved. We

870
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: can talk about you know, the story just spread much

871
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: like a virus. Actually, the person whose work influenced me

872
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 2: the most is this Nobel Prizeman economist, Robert Schiller, who

873
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: is a behavioral economist. He's not so much looking at

874
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: the sort of mathematical models, but more the human behavior

875
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 2: behind economic activity. And he just points out that these

876
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: these narratives, they are a reaction to something that's real.

877
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: In this case, maybe like the distrust of government born

878
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: from the subprime crisis, but they just kind of take

879
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 2: on a life of their own and they mutate and

880
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: they change to fit, you know, whatever, whatever sort of

881
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: story resonates with the public. And es actually the first

882
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: time that I was able to articulate why I was

883
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 2: so interested in it, because it was like, well, I'm

884
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 2: not really not an economist. I have an economist degree,

885
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 2: but I'm not like you go to graduate school. My

886
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 2: math is actually pretty badly it's always my weak point.

887
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 2: And I'm not some you know, cryptographer expert on the

888
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 2: technic the technology. So why am I here? Why am

889
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 2: I so obsessed with it? And It's because I'm a storyteller.

890
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 2: It's because I tell stories for a living. I like

891
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: to say that I lie for a living too. As

892
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: an actor, I mean, I know, we're always talking about truth,

893
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 2: but it's also about the show, and you can tell

894
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 2: when people are lying. I think actors have pretty good

895
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 2: bullshit detector because they've been bullshitted before. Anyone who's ever

896
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 2: had an agent has been bullshited at least once or ago.

897
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 2: So you see people doing stuff and you're like, well,

898
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: that's not true. You know, I didn't at the time

899
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 2: know as much about the quote unquote technology as I

900
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: do now, but I knew that the celebrities selling it

901
00:52:58,040 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 2: didn't know anymore than I did.

902
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they've just been told a story. Someone has

903
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 1: sat them down and said this is really cool and

904
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 1: you should get in on it because it's the future.

905
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: And they go wow, okay.

906
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:11,760
Speaker 2: Well and they pay them in real dollars.

907
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: Sure, but it's like you believe there's a lot of money, Yeah,

908
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: you believe a story. A friend of mine explained it

909
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: to me in a really interesting way. You know, we

910
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: were talking about all of this because I understand that

911
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: there is real value assigned to some of this, and

912
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: I also understand that it's essentially completely made up, and

913
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: how does it become real when it was just an idea?

914
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: And a buddy of mine was saying that he had

915
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: a friend very deep in the space who was talking

916
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: about all the meme coins, and I was like, just

917
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 1: the idea that a meme coin has value? It's a

918
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: meme what are we talking about? You know, much like

919
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 1: doge coin was a joke that then became a currency.

920
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: And he explained to me that if you just were

921
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: paying attention, like he tracked a ten thousand dollars investment

922
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 1: in a meme coin that, over the span of two

923
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: weeks became worth one hundred and forty thousand dollars, but

924
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: then one week later was worth nothing. Right, And I

925
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,959
Speaker 1: was like, so, if you were smart enough to get out,

926
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: and you could have made one hundred and thirty thousand

927
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: dollars on the made up idea, but if you had

928
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: waited seven more days, you would have lost ten grand.

929
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: Like what is this? So I guess I'm curious. I

930
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: ask questions, and I hear examples, but I certainly don't

931
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: feel like an expert. And I hear you saying that

932
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 1: you know, you may not be particularly great at math,

933
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: but you do understand the language of economics, the language

934
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: of money. So how would you explain to our listeners.

935
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 2: Like.

936
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: What cryptocurrency really is? And you've talked about the red

937
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: flags that you were seeing in terms of this story

938
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: sounds made up, but are there actual identifiers you would

939
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: tell someone who's trying to learn about this to look

940
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: for to understand it.

941
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I can make it simple. And this

942
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 2: is what I told the Senate. It actually starts, it

943
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 2: starts and ends with language. So they're not currencies. They're

944
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 2: they're just they aren't. That's not what they do. There

945
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: are things you put money into hoping to make money

946
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 2: off of them through the work of your friend who

947
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 2: bought the meme coin. So what that is is a security,

948
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 2: it's an investment contract. But they're unregulated basically, right, Like,

949
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 2: there's very little laws. There are very few laws that

950
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 2: really apply or that sorry, have been applied broadly speaking

951
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: to crypto. Right, you see all of the cases now,

952
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 2: like everybody's in court, everybody's getting sued, jail left and

953
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 2: right right all over the world. And it's because I

954
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: in part I think the powers that you didn't really

955
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 2: take crypto that seriously, it's awfully stupid, sort of understandable,

956
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,240
Speaker 2: but the crime that can be facilitated by using it

957
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 2: is significant. I mean, it's it's kind of mind blowing. Actually,

958
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: there was a hearing today and the Senate Banking Committee,

959
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 2: which was the committee that I testified in front of

960
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, and the hearing was explicitly

961
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 2: about cryptocurrency funding terrorism and sanctions of asion and you know,

962
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: the North Korean nuclear weapons program. I mean literally, like

963
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 2: the worst people in the world can use it to

964
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: send this thing that has value of some kind instantaneously

965
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 2: all over the world and avoid the working system and

966
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 2: avoid the regulations. So what are cryptocurrencies. They are unregulated securities.

967
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 2: And it's sort of interesting, are securities laws come out

968
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 2: in my thirties because of the nineteen twenties we have

969
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 2: them and the Roaring twenties, you know, this big bubble

970
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 2: that builds up, crashed and ended up, you know, resulting

971
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 2: in the Great Depression, and the powers that be said, oh,

972
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 2: we should probably have some rules about this stuff. And

973
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 2: the main thing that the security laws are predicated primarily

974
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: on disclosure. You need to say, if you're going to

975
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 2: invest in something, you need to know who the hell

976
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 2: you're giving your money to the hell they're doing with

977
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 2: that money, right, And crypto has none of that effectively

978
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 2: design Right, It's like, oh, I'm betting on a mean coin. Okay,

979
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 2: what does it do? Well, not really anything. Actually it's

980
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: a dog and a hat or whatever. But other people

981
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 2: are like the numbers going up, so like there must

982
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 2: be value there. Well, in an unregulated market, you can

983
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 2: manipulate the prices of these things. I mean, you saw

984
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: sam Bang d free get convicted of like one of

985
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: the worst financial frauds in American history, and what was

986
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 2: going on inside of his empire was just it was

987
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 2: just straight up fraud. Was just taking people's money, filtering

988
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 2: it through a bank, and spending it. And in the meantime,

989
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 2: you know, the numbers on the screen can kind of

990
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 2: do whatever the numbers on the screen do. They're sort

991
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 2: of the exchanges for the most part, are kind of

992
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: like bucket shops. Bucket shops were fake exchanges that up

993
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: until the nineteen twenties when they were outlawed. Would you know,

994
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: you'd call on the telephone or send telegram or whatever

995
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 2: it was and make and you know, invest in something

996
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 2: and they'd say, ye, yeah, sure, sure we'll put well.

997
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 2: And then you know, they wouldn't make.

998
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: The trade, right, They just take your money.

999
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: They just take the money. And then and then and

1000
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: then it really just becomes sort of a Ponzi scheme

1001
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 2: where you just all you're really trying to do is

1002
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 2: slow the redemption process down and control the redemption process.

1003
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 2: You're just trying to make sure that people can't get there.

1004
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 2: The thing that keeps a ponzi going is not just

1005
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: the ability to get new money in, but to manage

1006
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 2: how many people are able to get their.

1007
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: Money out right, you have to hold on to it, yeah.

1008
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 2: Because the money's not there, right, Like you're creating these

1009
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 2: returns on the screen and saying, oh, it's up this percent.

1010
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 2: None of that matters until you actually need to get

1011
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,439
Speaker 2: the money back, and that's when you know, shit gets real.

1012
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 2: And so these are sort of, you know, in many ways,

1013
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 2: just like sort of new iterations of the same old

1014
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 2: Ponzi stories. They're just kind of updated for the digital age. Right,

1015
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: they have all the words and they have all the

1016
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 2: you know, crypt is basically the opposite of what it

1017
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: says it is. It's not decentralized. It's highly centralized. It's

1018
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 2: not new. It's scrypt has been around or blockchain's be

1019
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: around for over thirty years. It's not a currency. Stable

1020
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 2: coins aren't stable. Like it's really funny that, like, you know,

1021
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 2: it's kind of exactly the opposite of whatever they say there,

1022
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 2: which is fantactic of like you know, telling you something

1023
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 2: that's just blatantly not true and daring you too to

1024
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 2: disbelieve it.

1025
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: Right, and now a word from our sponsors. I mean,

1026
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: it's really wild to think about, and it's so cool

1027
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: to talk to you about because this thing you were

1028
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: interested in essentially led you down this rabbit hole that

1029
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: has resulted in the book being a New York Times bestseller.

1030
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 1: You testifying in front of the Senate, you know what

1031
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:24,439
Speaker 1: a wild pandemic project you had. What do you think

1032
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: is the biggest takeaway that you want folks to get

1033
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: from the book? What do you like Why did you

1034
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: decide to aggregate all this information and publish something.

1035
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 2: I think I want people to understand what actual money

1036
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 2: is and why it's so important. And I think the

1037
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 2: thing that is so important to understand about it is

1038
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:52,959
Speaker 2: that it is a thing with share in many ways,

1039
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 2: I think our monetary system is what's called a public good,

1040
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: meaning we all need to work for us all to

1041
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 2: do well. Like obviously we have private ownership of particular things,

1042
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 2: but in order for our society to work, we need

1043
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 2: money to work for us, and we share it, and

1044
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: that's a responsibility to make sure that it is working

1045
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 2: for all of us. And so I think, you know,

1046
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: the potency of the cryptocurrency stories really came from the

1047
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 2: failures of our regulated system to do all of the

1048
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: things that money should do right. And I really I

1049
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: think that's why I wrote the book is to get

1050
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: to the bottom of the mystery of how it was

1051
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: all working. And I'm not My journey isn't quite done.

1052
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 2: I'm working on a documentary. I filmed all of these guys,

1053
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 2: so I had an interview with Sam Bak mcfreed, which

1054
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 2: is quite a trip to look at. So I think

1055
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 2: the doc will also kind of get into this territory.

1056
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 2: But I wrote it to actually talk about how important

1057
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 2: it is to be connected. Sort of aspires to this

1058
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 2: like libertarian notion that like your money is just yours

1059
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 2: and like nobody has any like you sort of live

1060
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 2: in a fantasy land where like you don't have to

1061
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 2: interact with anybody, you're totally preppy, no one knows anything

1062
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 2: about you that can seem nice. But in reality we

1063
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: need to share this thing called money, to share the

1064
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 2: system and agree on its rules, or it doesn't work

1065
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 2: for any of us. Right evolves into this what crypto is,

1066
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 2: which is this sort of zero sum game where someone

1067
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: to win, someone else has to lose. The winners and

1068
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 2: losers aren't equally distributed. There's like a couple of winners,

1069
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 2: the scammers and the criminals, and then a bunch of

1070
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: losers the average person, and every once in a while,

1071
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, an average person wins a little bit. But

1072
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 2: that's of course a good thing for the scammers and

1073
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 2: for the people running the casinos or that, excuse me,

1074
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 2: the exchanges. Is like, people have enough people out there

1075
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 2: spreading the story right that, like, hey, I got rich

1076
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 2: on it for people other people to get drawn into it.

1077
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 2: So I think that's really what I'm kind of trying

1078
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 2: to to talk about, is how connected we all are

1079
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 2: and how important those connections are too. Yeah, addressing the

1080
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 2: issues that crypto purports to address.

1081
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 1: I think that's really beautiful. It's such an interesting thing,

1082
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: you know, for me connection community. The last twenty years

1083
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 1: of political volunteering and activism have really shown me that,

1084
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 1: in whatever way you might be dissatisfied, as you said earlier,

1085
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: with our government, we can forget in this country how

1086
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 1: lucky we are and how good we have it. And yes,

1087
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: there are all sorts of historic horrors and disparities we

1088
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 1: have to address, and the fact that we have a

1089
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:04,479
Speaker 1: relatively stable currency, the fact that we are developing ever

1090
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:08,479
Speaker 1: more access to things like healthcare. You know, I would

1091
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: love if we had a more Nordic system in that regard,

1092
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 1: but like we forget that community is really the only

1093
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 1: thing that makes any of this work. And you know,

1094
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: the roads we drive on we can only drive on

1095
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: because we all agree to the rules of the road.

1096
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 1: We agree to stop at red lights and go at

1097
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: green lights. And it is a societal project to be

1098
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 1: able to exist in a world. And it's really interesting

1099
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:40,479
Speaker 1: to hear you qualify money in that way. It only

1100
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: works if it's looked at as a shared system, and

1101
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: the regulations on things like you're saying securities and whatnot,

1102
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 1: are the only way we avoid another great depression, a disaster.

1103
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's accidental that we saw a

1104
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: pandemic cause the disruption that we did and the supply

1105
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: chain issues you're referring to. And now it's really interesting

1106
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: to see, you know, some of the folks who know

1107
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: that it takes regulation to make any of this work

1108
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: trying to rein in these companies that are gouging and

1109
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 1: doing the things because it's like, no, no, you're saying

1110
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: that it's the system and it's actually just you. And

1111
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: in a way, it's another version of the crypto scam. Right,

1112
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, well, I'm going to get rich even

1113
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: if it hurts everybody else, and there has to be

1114
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: a moment where we decide to stabilize the community for

1115
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 1: the benefit of the community. So it's really I've just

1116
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 1: never thought about crypto in that way, and I appreciate

1117
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 1: you illuminating it like that for me.

1118
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 2: No, that that's exactly right. And I think the notion

1119
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 2: that you're sort of just going to be able to

1120
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 2: go to your own little siloed area and exist free

1121
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 2: of others is not just a fantasy, it's a dangerous fantasy.

1122
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 2: The truth is, we do live in a democratic society,

1123
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 2: for all of its faults, and so our government does

1124
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 2: represent us, for better or worse, and imperfectly of course.

1125
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 2: But like the solution is to strengthen that and to

1126
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 2: focus on that, work on that is not to sort

1127
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 2: of imagine some system where it's every man or woman

1128
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 2: for himself. It's it's it's it's actually very dangerous because

1129
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 2: in that world, nobody trusts anybody. That's what that's the

1130
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 2: weirdest thing to me about crypto is that it says

1131
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 2: it's this trust less money that all you have to

1132
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 2: do is trust the code. But first of all, it's

1133
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 2: not true because with the code doesn't fall from the sky.

1134
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: People write the code, So really doing is are trusting

1135
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 2: the people that write the code. And damp Beagm freed

1136
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:39,439
Speaker 2: he instructed one of his guys to change the code.

1137
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 2: That's how he actually stole the money. Is he literally

1138
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,440
Speaker 2: just changed the code that was in the exchange. But

1139
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 2: it's also to say you want to trustless money is

1140
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 2: wrong because why should we aspire not to trust one another?

1141
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 2: That's so dark it feels apocalyptic or something that like

1142
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 2: we would we would none of us trust each other well.

1143
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 1: And in a trustless society, fascism blooms, yes, and it

1144
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: is part of what we're seeing. And I think the

1145
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 1: importance of being able to identify the tools that tip

1146
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: the skills toward fascism rather than a representative democracy. It

1147
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: really does feel like one of the most important acts

1148
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: of awareness of our time, because there's a lot at

1149
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: play that's trying to make the world more fascist and

1150
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: incredibly easy for you know, a handful of people, and

1151
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 1: incredibly dangerous for everyone else. And I should hope that

1152
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: the more we can learn about all of these systems,

1153
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 1: including the one you write about in the book, the

1154
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 1: more we can go. No, we don't want that. We

1155
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: don't want nine billion people to suffer in six dudes

1156
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: to be rich like that seems probably not like the

1157
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: best outcome.

1158
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And we have agency, right, I mean thing

1159
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 2: that I want to really pross upon people is we

1160
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 2: have We know it's hard, we know it's tough, we

1161
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 2: know it's imperfect, but we have agency, right, and yeah,

1162
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 2: and we don't have anything else. All we have is

1163
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 2: each other. Yes, It's all we have, and so we.

1164
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 1: So to strengthen the US, Yes, feels like the goal.

1165
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 2: Ye.

1166
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: So the documentary is coming. When do we get to

1167
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: see it?

1168
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 2: It's hopefully relatively soon. I think it's going to be

1169
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 2: ready in a few months, and then I'm going to

1170
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 2: figure out how to like get it out there. I'm

1171
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 2: going to go to festivals. Am I going to try

1172
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 2: to screen it for buyers. I'm really excited about it

1173
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 2: because it's it's very unusual. You know, if you go

1174
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 2: on Netflix and you see these cryptodocs, it's very much

1175
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,599
Speaker 2: like it's about a con, you know, and it's these

1176
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 2: like really these blow hard guys, yeah, who ripped off whoever?

1177
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 2: And there can be kind of fun, but they're sort

1178
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 2: of true crimey this is which which is a genre

1179
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:58,720
Speaker 2: I love, but I feel like it can get repetitive

1180
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: over time. This is kind kind of a comedy sort of.

1181
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 2: It's like, it's just ridiculous what happened with the whole

1182
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 2: bubble and the Unfortunately I think there's you know, still

1183
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 2: more to come, but it's a it's a comedy with

1184
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 2: with some heart and and hopefully some brains as well,

1185
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 2: just kind of looking at like, how did we get here? Right?

1186
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,759
Speaker 2: I mean, pandemic. I don't think crypto would have taken

1187
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 2: off in the way that it did if it weren't

1188
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 2: for the pandemic, for everyone needing so isolated and feeling

1189
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:34,680
Speaker 2: like in a way, I think it was almost like

1190
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 2: a way of connecting. You know. It's like you find

1191
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:40,600
Speaker 2: these groups and you you you you promote this or

1192
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 2: that coin, and you you get the false sense of community.

1193
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 2: To me, it's false me. It's not really predicated on

1194
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 2: any real affection because it's solely for profit. And if

1195
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 2: you know that you're being exploited, you know, it's it

1196
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 2: may seem like you're you're in a part of a community,

1197
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 2: but you're yeah, just a sucker.

1198
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine this is how the people who invested

1199
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: with Bernie Madoff felt like, oh, we found a new

1200
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: thing and it's going to be great.

1201
01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean his genius was because he ran his

1202
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 2: con for decades. His genius was he was a respected person.

1203
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 2: He you know, he was chairman of the of Nasdaq.

1204
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 2: He like created this thing called payment for order flow,

1205
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 2: which is important thing inside the plumbing of our market.

1206
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 2: So he was like this revered figure. But his business

1207
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,200
Speaker 2: investing wasn't going so well, so he's just started lying

1208
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 2: about it. But he but he made it an exclusive club.

1209
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 2: You had to be invited to invest with Bernie. You were,

1210
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 2: you know, alongside all these big charities and all these

1211
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 2: wealthy people. And I think Crypto was writing on that

1212
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 2: for a minute, this notion, notion that it was like

1213
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 2: the future you know, ye all you needed to invest

1214
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 2: in the future of the future of money was a

1215
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 2: willingness to part with the current version of it. You know,

1216
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 2: it's like you could, you two can own the future

1217
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 2: of money. Just give me some of your real dollars now.

1218
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 2: I think that it's really fun. I love the true

1219
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 2: crime stuff, but my favorite true crime is the dumb kind,

1220
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:17,799
Speaker 2: like the Coen Brothers kind of crime. We're like me too. Yeah, okay, yeah,

1221
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:19,519
Speaker 2: I like that. I think it's fun, and so this

1222
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:21,640
Speaker 2: will probably have elements of that.

1223
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 1: Oh, I can't wait to see it. That's going to

1224
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 1: be so great. Well, I want to. I see we've

1225
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:28,720
Speaker 1: gone a little over and I know you have three

1226
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 1: kiddos to attend to and it might be like school

1227
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 1: pickup time it is in New York. Okay, So I

1228
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: will ask you my last question. I just I love

1229
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 1: to ask everybody when you think about you know, where

1230
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 1: you sit, what you're working on, and your life, what

1231
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: as you look ahead feels like you're work in progress.

1232
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 2: My work in progress is the balance between the work

1233
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 2: that I do outside of the home and my connection

1234
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 2: to my family and to my community, but particularly to

1235
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 2: my wife and my kids. You know, I think that's

1236
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 2: really the The pandemic was a wonderful reset. You know,

1237
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 2: privilege to say that, but it was like, oh, right,

1238
01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff doesn't actually matter, right, it's up,

1239
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 2: who's down. It can feel good, and it's not like

1240
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 2: you shouldn't go after these things if you really want them.

1241
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 2: But at least for me, it was a recognition that

1242
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 2: that wasn't what really drove me. There wasn't really something

1243
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 2: that gave me the deep satisfaction that I was seeking.

1244
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 2: And so I think that's what that's what I'm focused on,

1245
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 2: is that that balance. Thank you, sure, thank you, thank

1246
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 2: you for having me.

1247
01:12:47,360 --> 01:13:02,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was so great.