1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: A morning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. You know, something 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about and something maybe I should have 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: brought up a long time ago. But how do you 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: feel about me being a white woman telling your story? Um, 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: it's something, you know, the race thing. I was on 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: the verge of becoming a racist when I was sent 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: to Lucasfield. The guards they called your nigger to your faith. 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: That's why I stopped using that word, in fact, because 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: when you ever hear racists call you that, you know exactly, 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: it moved, it vibrates to your whole body. And then 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: I was put on trial, and that was further that 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: you know, I need to hate white people. But you know, 14 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: all the guys are testified on me as who lied 15 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: on me, you know, to save themselves or for dominantly blind. 16 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: And you know, so that caused me some kind of 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, cognative designance. I was confused about that whole thing. 18 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: And then you know, I started needing read and read 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: from somebody who has spent you know, decades actually educating 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: myself about race, educating myself about politics, and you know 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: those two things I'm married mostly to benefit those in power. 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: You know, that's how they divided us, keep us divided. 23 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: You know, Amy is the point person in my campaign 24 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: White lay. I'm always struck even now, even after all 25 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: the beautiful, loyal, dedicated white people who have come on 26 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: come into my life have helped me in ways that 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: without which I would would really be stuck. So experience 28 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: has really been the thing that has informed my attitude 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: in terms of people. I'm glad you came onto my place. 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: That's a long way to answer your question, but you 31 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: know this is a really loaded question though. Yeah, yeah, 32 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: it's yeah. So you know, I don't limit myself because 33 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: limit myself only plans in the hands of the people 34 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: who are trying to put the news around my neck. 35 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer episode eight 36 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: Visions of Versions so long. Well it's kind of have 37 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: a ghost. It's finals, and it's the last day of finals, 38 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: and it's well make for seventh periods. That's Amy gordeyev 39 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: Keith just mentioned her. She's been the point person on 40 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: the Justice for Keith Lamar campaign and one of his 41 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: most fervent advocates for the last ten plus years. She 42 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: also runs a Facebook group called Justice for Keith Lamar. 43 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: I meet with Amy at Cheney High School in Youngstown, Ohio, 44 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: about nine miles from where Keith sits on death Row. 45 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this is a great room. Yeah, I love it. 46 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: Amy has always worked in education, teaching, then a quick 47 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: detour to higher education marketing, then back to teaching. So 48 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: now that I'm at Cheney, I'm a tsaul, a teacher 49 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: of English to speakers of other languages. We have the 50 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: highest rate of childhood poverty in the country and the 51 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: school system here in Ohio, and so that means our 52 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: kids have a lot of need, a lot of socioeconomic need. 53 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: Everybody gets free, free lunch, and we spend a lot 54 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: of time on just you know, trying to work on equity. 55 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: In twenty and eleven, Amy and her husband Paul, a 56 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: professor of cultural anthropology at Youngstown State University, end up 57 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: meeting Keith through civil and workers' rights advocates Stoughton and 58 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: Alice Lynde, who spent twenty years at Lucasville and the 59 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: cases of the five men who are currently on death row. 60 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: You heard from them briefly in episode seven. My husband 61 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: Paul was doing research at the time on race and 62 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: religion and different aspects that have created the segregated situation 63 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: that exists in Youngstown. And he came across the name 64 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: of Stotton Lynd, who's a historian, and he contacted him 65 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: to interview him. The Lens ended up inviting us to 66 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: drive them to go blueberry picking for Alice's eightieth birthday. 67 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: So we took our minivan with the kids and the 68 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: Lens and on that drive, they started talking about Lucasville, 69 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: about these five guys. And I didn't even know who 70 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: Stouton Lynd was. I didn't know his significant body of 71 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: work in the civil rights movement, you know, none of it. 72 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: I had no idea who they just were elderly folks 73 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: that I thought were sweet. You know. One thing led 74 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: to another, and then next thing you know, we were 75 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: visiting Keith. As Amy researches and learns more about Keith's case, 76 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: she realizes his version of events is far from public knowledge. 77 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: When we would look online for information about him. All 78 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: of it was the narrative that the state put forth, 79 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: and it was like the articles coming from southern Ohio, 80 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: from the Cincinnati area. Everything was really the worst things 81 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: that you could imagine about him. He was just a monster. 82 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: So Amy encourages Keith to write a book and tells 83 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: him she'll help. He would write at night, and then 84 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: in the morning he would call it and he would 85 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: dictate it. Eight months and two hundred and thirty seven 86 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: pages later, Condemned is published in twenty fourteen. It was 87 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: a long process, but in the end, Condemned allowed Keith 88 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: to tell his story from his point of view based 89 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: on how it happened. Did you ever ask him point blank, 90 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: are you innocent? I don't know if I ever asked 91 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: that in that way. He says it all the time. 92 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm innocent, and I have seen with my own eyes, 93 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: like I've read the documents. It just reeks of wrongdoing. 94 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: You know, there's no evidence to me. If Keith were 95 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: guilty of killing five people and the state offered him 96 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: no additional charges, he would have been the dumbest person 97 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: ever to not accept that offer. Right, he wasn't going 98 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: to do it because he didn't do those crimes. Amy 99 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: believes investigators found an easy target in Keith because he 100 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: was already in prison for killing someone. He just happened 101 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: to be in the two places where people were murdered 102 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: at Lucasville L Block and K Block, and that his 103 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: attitude definitely didn't help matters. He didn't want to cooperate, 104 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: and he told other people like, don't help them. This 105 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: is you know, he basically said like fuck, you know, 106 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: look what they did to us. I mean, he was 107 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: young and it was I can't imagine the amount of trauma. 108 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: I mean I work with traumatized teenagers and they react 109 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: more harshly than that all the time. You don't trust anybody, 110 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: and I think he just didn't trust that any He 111 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: would be safer for saying anything that wasn't how you 112 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: do your time. You keep your head down and you 113 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: mind your own business. But many don't follow that same philosophy, 114 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: like the men who testified against Keith Amy says their 115 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: testimony doesn't hold any water. The prison informants were paid. 116 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: When I say paid prison informants, I'm talking about incentivized, 117 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: rewarded somehow drop charges or no added charges or earlier paroles, 118 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: or you get to be moved to a different prison 119 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: away from Yeah, what do you know about Oakwood? What 120 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: I know about Oakwood is that the men who agreed 121 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: to become informants in the various trials were taken to 122 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: Oakwood Correctional Facility. It was said afterwards that they were 123 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: given access to commissary food, cigarettes, kind of an open 124 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: door policy, lots more movement, and even at Thanksgiving were 125 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: given a fabulous Thanksgiving dinner that the state folks who 126 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: were present kind of referred to them as a family. Supposedly, 127 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: some prisoners nicknamed Oakwood Snitch Academy. It seems like at 128 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: Oakwood that's where that script was created. They worked out 129 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: how they would say it, and then they would go 130 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: around to trials after that and sing the song that 131 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: they were taught to sing. Or maybe the state's witnesses 132 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: were transferred to Oakwood for their own safety. I mean, 133 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: they couldn't really be expected to coexist with the people 134 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: they'd be testifying against. Right Regardless, Amy has other issues 135 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: with how the state handled the investigation Keith's case. You know, 136 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: I guess I also pushed back even on the name 137 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: death Squad, because that's a state word, that's a state 138 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: name that they gave to kind of like spookify what 139 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: they were, you know, I mean, the death squad. That's 140 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: a premeditated kind of group or something. You know, it's 141 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: just a no, we weren't there. Nobody really knows what happened. 142 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: But here's the other thing. Did they actually trample and 143 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: ruin all the evidence or did they request to not 144 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: have any of it be admissible, because then they would 145 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that twenty two thousand pieces of 146 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: evidence are actually inadmissible. People have asked over the years, 147 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: what if he isn't innocent, or what if he's guilty 148 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: and all of that, and so I know that question 149 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: is out there, but for men, I mean, even if 150 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: he were guilty, which I absolutely don't believe he is, 151 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: But even if he were, it still doesn't change the 152 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: fact that the system is lynching black and brown men, 153 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: that in the case of Lucasville, the way and the 154 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: methods that were used were unconstitutional and wrong, that they cheated. 155 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: According to the Death Penalty Information Center, in the United States, 156 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: fifty five percent of the death row population is made 157 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: up of black and brown people and forty two percent 158 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: is white. Three percent are referred to as other. More specifically, 159 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: in Ohio, there are seventy seven black and brown people 160 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: on death row versus fifty six who are white. Amy 161 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: has spent the last ten years on Keith's case, I've 162 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: only been on it for ten months. I often think 163 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: back to when I first started. How more than a 164 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: few people told me that the story was too big 165 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: and I was getting in way over my head. At 166 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: the time, I think my pride at the better of me. 167 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: My attitude was, ah, I got this, I'll show them. 168 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,479 Speaker 1: But they were right. There are just so many names, 169 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: so many people directly related to Keith's case, and even 170 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: more on the periphery, And still this many months in, 171 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: I don't have a real sense of what evidence actually exists, 172 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: when Keith received certain pieces of potentially favorable evidence, how 173 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: exactly he got them, or what exactly the courts have heard. 174 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: But all of that aside, Keith consistently goes back to 175 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: a few examples he says can clearly point to his 176 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: innocence and why he didn't get a fair trial. Like 177 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: Aaron Jefferson we talked about him in the last episode, 178 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: Keith says, Aaron Jefferson straight up confessed to murdering Darryldpina, 179 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: one of the so called snitches killed in Else six 180 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: and one of the murderers Keith was sent to death 181 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: Row four. Keith claims his nineteen ninety five trial, defense 182 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: attorneys were never given Aaron Jefferson's full confession. If they had, 183 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: it could have made a difference in the outcome of 184 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: the trial, but the state strongly disagrees and says it 185 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't have changed a thing because Aaron Jefferson's confession is 186 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: not credible. I wonder why hello my name, I am 187 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: a good looking fifty one year old man. I'm completely 188 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: I'm going right to the source to find out. Hello, Hi, 189 00:12:52,320 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: how are you on? Sarable? Little late Aaron Jeffers Sin 190 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: calls me from Grafton Correctional Institution, about thirty miles southwest 191 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: of Cleveland. He says he first arrived at Lucasville a 192 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: couple of years before the uprising. Back then, were you 193 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: remember were you part of any group? Uh? Yeah, I was. 194 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: I was a member of the Gangs of Disciples. Was 195 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: both have been the three groups that's both of hair 196 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: Control ran and it was it was a relevant parent 197 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: when it all kicked off. Where were you I regard 198 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: at I was back back I'll row by way man, 199 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: because I had to come in and go to work 200 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: training and Bible was like man, He ain't going here 201 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: right now, and I'm like, okay, but I sad going 202 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: in trick on my property. Man. That was probably worth 203 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: the atonal me that day. According to that index of 204 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 1: interviews the Ohio State Highway Patrol conducted, Aaron is interviewed 205 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: once a month after the uprising. A year later, he 206 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: asks to speak with them and he has a lot 207 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: to say. So it seems like you requested to talk 208 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: with investigators, and in that interview you said that you 209 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: killed David Summers and you killed Darryl Dpina. I didn't 210 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: do nothing, Darrel. I don't even know. I couldn't even 211 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: play with darl Dpina looked like, so don't know it. 212 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: You said, I have to get this off my chest 213 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: because other people are being charged with things and they 214 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: didn't do it. Did anyone ask you to admit to 215 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: killing Darryl Deepina? Now I don't even remember that part. 216 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: I mean to say that part what I said, I 217 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: don't know. You gave a pretty detailed description of what 218 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: happened to him, and then the investigator tells me would 219 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: that I was lying about that too. Well, two things 220 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: to unpack here. First, I have the transcript of Aaron's 221 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: full confession. In it, he describes in great detail how 222 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: he killed Darryl Depina, where Dapina worked in the prison, 223 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: and what he looked like, including his wild looking beard. 224 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: So that seems to contradict what he just said to me, 225 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: that he didn't know him or even know what he 226 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: looked like. The second thing is that Aaron also just 227 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: said the investigator told him he was lying when he 228 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: confessed to killing Darryl Dpina, But that's not what happened. 229 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: When Aaron confesses to killing Darryl Deepina, the investigator says 230 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: nothing to challenge it. When Aaron Jefferson confesses to killing 231 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: David's Summers, that's when the investigator tells him he's lying 232 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: because what he says he did to David Summers doesn't 233 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: match how David Summers was actually killed. So were Aaron's 234 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: confessions the truth or were they made up? They didn't 235 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: charge Aaron Darryl de Pino's murder. Remember, the state says 236 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: his confession wasn't credible. But Aaron was convicted of aggravated 237 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: murder and sentenced twenty to life for killing David Summers. 238 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: Did you see the death squad go through? No? Do 239 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: you know Keith Lamar, did you see him inside L six? 240 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: And I didn't know. I didn't say. I didn't say, 241 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: but you know, I was out there with a long 242 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: time before I went in, so I would square I 243 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: was a stack of Bible with that hee there. I 244 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: couldn't do that. I don't know. I didn't see it 245 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: while I was in there. So I'm you know, I mean, 246 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: I'm looking at his case and and and just trying 247 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: to get a sense of like the investigation and what 248 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: led to people being charged and then convicted of some 249 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: of these crimes where I think being would probably have 250 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: this bart with you know, trying to get this much 251 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: information as you and from the bottom up to see 252 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: really what it an investigation or what it just easier 253 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: for them to get guys to tuddle another god and 254 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: be God with? Did investigators ask you to slip on people? 255 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: Matter fact? At one point U d Cubicas who came 256 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: to see me and he wanted me to test about 257 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: against Hassan. So yeah, no, that's not going to happen. 258 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: Not what if you put somebody on death road? Remember Hassan, 259 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: also known as Carlos Sanders, was the Sunni Muslim prayer 260 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: leader at Lucasville whose objections to the forced TB testing 261 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: basically jump started the uprising. What did they want you 262 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: to say, Hassan did well? They did what it is. 263 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: They wanted to get a store and the stories now 264 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: believable again. They wanted you to complete that story because 265 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: I remember talking to the box to Okay, next question, 266 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: what if I couldn't tell you can come at me 267 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: and teschbucket somebody and I get on the court and 268 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: I don't understand. I say, I don't know. We talked 269 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: talking about I didn't see anything, doesn't and he bas 270 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: was telling me, no, you would tell them this, this 271 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: is what happened. This is what you will repeat. And 272 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: I said, what I would like be like perjury. That 273 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: would be lying, wouldn't it? He said, who knows you lying? 274 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 1: Or he basically told me like, hey, you don't want 275 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: to help yourself, then we don't want to help me. 276 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: This is a prepaid debit call from an innimate of 277 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: the Ohio State Innitentiary. I want to tell Keith about 278 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: my conversation with Aaron. I got in touch with Aaron Jefferson. Okay, okay, 279 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: say so he was interesting. We talked about his confession, 280 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: and I asked him, did you kill Darryl Dpina? And 281 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: he would, you know? I mean, I wasn't surprised, but 282 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: he said no, why would if they know? Though? Now 283 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: at this point he's probably getting ready to go home, 284 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: So he said he didn't kill Daryl Deepina. Now I 285 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: don't know what his status is right now. But why 286 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: do you think that they got him on David Summers 287 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: but not on Darryl Deepina? He confessed. But he confessed 288 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: Darryl Dpina, right, yeah, No, But I'm saying, you know, 289 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: you asked me to explain something that really can be explained. No, 290 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm just using the twisted logic. You know, there was 291 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: no rhyme or reason. If you look into like, you know, 292 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: pursued this logically, then you you're going to be frustrated 293 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: more often than not, you know, because a lot of 294 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: it don't make sense. They didn't charge him with, you know, 295 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: the depainent thing because they already had me. In an 296 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: attempt to try and make sense of it all, I 297 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: tracked down Darryl Deepina's autopsy report to see if it 298 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: matches what Aaron Jefferson said he did to him. The 299 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: report says that Daryl Dipina died of quote, massive acute 300 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: trauma to the head leading to skull fractures, sub arachnoid hemorrhage, 301 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: and cerebral contusion. There were also some abrasions on his 302 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: body and lacerations to his right elbow and lower right leg. 303 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: This is not what Aaron Jefferson said in his confession. 304 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: He said he hit Topina on his left shoulder with 305 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: an aluminum bat then he stabbed him fifteen times in 306 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: the torso. So it seems like Aaron Jefferson's confession doesn't 307 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: match with the autopsy report. What do you say about 308 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: that actual autopsy? I guess I don't think I've ready. Yeah, 309 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: I saw the autopsy report. Now it's not for me 310 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: to read the autopsy and say Aaron Jefferson didn't do this. 311 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: Oh damn Jefferson did do this. That's the Space Space 312 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: job to do that. My job is to clear Minny, 313 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: you know. But the fact of the matter that Amaron 314 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: Jepson confessed to kill somebody from whom I sensor to death, 315 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: and not only that his confession was correaborated by another prisoner, 316 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: all of which was hailed from me from from from 317 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: my request for discovery. Somebody um not me, confessed to 318 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: a murder that I was on trial for. That's a 319 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: sculpatory everything. When I started this process, Amy Keith's advocate 320 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: sent me some affidavits she wanted me to have. I'm 321 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: going to share a few of them with you. Now. 322 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: Get ready, because you're about to hear some names you 323 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: haven't heard before. But what these guys said may be significant. First, 324 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: there's a two thousand and five affidavit from Sean Davis, 325 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: and it has to do with Dennis Weaver's murder in 326 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: that K Block cell. In it, Sean Davis said that 327 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: he encouraged his friend William Bowling, remember he's the hands 328 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: on killer of Dennis Weaver, to blame Keith for ordering 329 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: Weaver's death, since Keith was already being blamed for the 330 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: snitch killings in L six, Sean Davis said he was 331 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: wrong for doing that when it wasn't true. I reached 332 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: out to Sean Davis, but he never responded. Then there's 333 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: Eric Gurdy. He's currently at Mansfield Correctional Institution. In a 334 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: two thousand and one affidavit, Eric Gurdy wrote that he 335 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: was coerced by State Trooper Sergeant Howard Hudson and Special 336 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: Prosecutor Mark Petemeyer to make some statements about some people 337 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: like Hassan and Keith. Then in a two thousand and 338 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: three affidavit he said more, and I'm quoting. I was 339 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: in the Block L six when the murders took place 340 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: and Keith Lamar was not present. I not Keith Lamar 341 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: and responsible for the death of William Savetti. I was 342 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: approached by the Highway Patrol to say that Keith Lamar 343 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: was the leader of the so called death squad in 344 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: exchange for a reduced sentence and exemption for a capital offense. 345 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: Keith Lamar has not threatened me or promised me anything. 346 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: In fact, I have not spoken to Keith or discussed 347 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: this matter with him in any way. I am doing 348 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: this because a man's life is on the line for 349 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: something I did and for the lies I was persuaded 350 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: to tell for the state. By the way, from what 351 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: I understand, the courts have been made aware of Eric 352 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: Gurdiy's affidavits and have concluded they don't change the thing 353 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: I ask Keith about Eric Gurdy. The interesting thing about Yerigurty, 354 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: he came forward. He has some kind of classes of 355 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: disconscious you know, admitted to you know, participate in various days. 356 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you said that in two thousand and three, 357 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: you've already been on death row almost a bit gay. 358 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm thankful that this sit for my has come forward. 359 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: I wish you would have got the vi that those 360 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't matter. I reached out to Eric and he responded. 361 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: We emailed for a few months about the possibility of 362 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: me interviewing him. Ultimately he decided against participating. But here 363 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,959 Speaker 1: is some of what he shared with me in his emails. Quote, 364 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: I've been very salty about the way the state used 365 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: and abused me for years. The state got guys on 366 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: death row who had nothing at all in killing the officer. 367 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: They tricked a lot of guys into do or die situations. 368 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: They straight out wrongfully convicted a lot of dudes on 369 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: some bullshit for real. Hopefully word will spread across the 370 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: country to people in power who will see through all 371 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: the evil and vicious stuff the State of Ohio did 372 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: to hurry up and convict and close the door on 373 00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: ninety three uprising. Look, Sean Davis and Eric Gurdy's affidavits 374 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: are quite compelling. It's hard to believe that a court 375 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: would read them and say it changes nothing, and it's 376 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: really too bad. Eric Gurdy said no to an interview, 377 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 1: but there's someone I never imagined who actually said yes. 378 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: This is a free call from Andrey, an inmate at 379 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: the Marian Correctional Institution. This call is from a correction 380 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: facility and his subject to monitoring and recording. Hi. Andre 381 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: Andre Stockton has an unfortunately unique perspective on the uprising. 382 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: He was actually one of the alleged snitches in l 383 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: six who was attacked by the so called death Squad. 384 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: I am in no way prepared for what he's about 385 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: to say. Thank you for calling back. It was so 386 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: loud outside, so I just wanted to make sure that 387 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: we could hear each other, okay. Andre Stockton, who is 388 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: now seventy, arrived at Lucasville in September of nineteen seventy nine. 389 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: Andrea says, like most people who were there back then, 390 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: it was a dangerous and explosive environment. The day of 391 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: the uprising, the air was extra thick with it. Andrea 392 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: describes how it all began. I was in the early afternoon, 393 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: the door was opened, were people were hollowing at you know, 394 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: a little louder than what it normally is. So you know, 395 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: I look out to that out of my door that 396 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: was opened, and I stepped out and stepped into it. 397 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: You know, it stepped into rebellion. And if you don't 398 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: mind sharing what what happened to you? Well, first of all, 399 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: I attempted to leave the block to to to leave 400 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: and go out to the yard, but they had inmates. 401 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: They have prevented that. So I, uh, I went to 402 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: find who the leader is, who's leading this, you know, 403 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: and uh I knew the guy and I would have 404 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: been Carlo's sadness, okay, And I am counting him and 405 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: told him now that I really was trying to leave, 406 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: and he asked me for a favor, and in return 407 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: for the favor, I was going to be able to 408 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: leave and go out. And I supposed to deliver a 409 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: message to someone, right and I'm heading back and the 410 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: group of inmates stopped me. As I recalled. They escorted 411 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: me to say six block SL sixty two and they're 412 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: lot put in their block. I had heard that Carlos 413 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: Sanders puss On wanted to put people that were considered 414 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: quote unquote snitches in cells for safe keeping. That's exact, 415 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: that's exactly the case. That's exactly, that's true. I believe 416 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: to this day that that was his attention. So he 417 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: didn't order right. Had you talked with administration, had you 418 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: helped them? Did they or did the other people there 419 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: that day believe you to be a quote unquote snitch? 420 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: Here here here, Harry calls right here, Okay, there was 421 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: one guy that there was a Muslim guy. Him and 422 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: I had had problems. All right, we've had to be okay, 423 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: and he threw an accusation out there. That was my 424 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: burden to prove. Yeah, I didn't. Next to your question, no, 425 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: but I wasn't as fished for the administration or anything 426 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: like that. What happens next being a group of guys 427 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: came by with disguise as own They answered my sale 428 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: And I don't remember one moment the one thing ever 429 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: since at nightmares about it, I've had dave visions about it. 430 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: But all of that, none of that is is reality. 431 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: You follow up saying the point that you should know 432 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: that maybe you don't know, is that I don't know. 433 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: M Do you remember at all being hit by more 434 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: than one person? Yes, I remember it was at least 435 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: six people every no basis, don't don't know wrong, listen 436 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: to these guys, but I could see through some of 437 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: the disguises, you know what I mean. I was I 438 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: would beat till they thought I was dead, and I 439 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: was taking outside in a cart and discarded as trash 440 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: as did. They recovered me probably best estimations, about three 441 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: o'clock that night, and discovered that I was alive. And 442 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: I don't know any of this stuff. All this is 443 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: just reports and what happened. I don't have no recollection 444 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: nu of this. And next thing I know is that 445 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: it was almost two weeks later that I awoke. I'm 446 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: so sorry. I'm so sorry. I mean, I'm just so 447 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: sorry that happened to you. Oh I appreciate that, but 448 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, listen, Uh, God is good. I'm 449 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: alive today. I wanted to say something. Do you know 450 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: that after all of these years, that that that that 451 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: stigma still is attached to me as far as you know, 452 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: like being like an that foreman all stitch, that that 453 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: label has followed you. Yes, it's the truth, It really is, 454 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: because you know, you know, how can you be expand 455 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: the undefendable who was charged with the attack on you? 456 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: We all? I think that one person that I know 457 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: all was convicted. How about something I running? I don't 458 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: know that guy named or Faith, For the life of me, 459 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: right to this day, I think Keith might have been 460 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: He was definitely accused of associated with I think he 461 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: got out of it because the severity of the other 462 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: charges outweighed the the sespee of using minor charges. Ask 463 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: him about it. I know that. So did you ever 464 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: see Keith as part of that group who attacked you? 465 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: How do you mean, oh, yes, oh yeah, he was there? Yes, 466 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: because you said you didn't really know who was there, 467 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: but you know that you saw Keith. I recognize how 468 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: few of the guys that were there him the group? 469 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: He was quarnerable. He was labeled as the leader of 470 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: the death squad. Do you remember anything about him giving 471 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: orders or no? Do you remember him hitting you? So 472 00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: had you known Keith before? Okay? And so far as 473 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: Keith I knew him when I see him, I did 474 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: not personally know him. I believe in my heart to 475 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:16,959 Speaker 1: this day that he had purchased a pair of shoes 476 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: that were stolen from me A few weeks prior to 477 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: the Loutispiel riot. That's what I was going through prior 478 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: to the riot, Like I had my mind home some 479 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: other things, retrocucy and and prior to the riot. Right, 480 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: so you're focused on Lake who stole my shoes? Yo? Yes, 481 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: and a little more. You know, somebody had paid somebody 482 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: to jump me. I had my older world that I was, 483 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, that I was involved in and you know 484 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: I was seriously ready to take somebody's life over over 485 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: the matter. That's that's where my mind was at the time. 486 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: And you're saying that Keith Keith was involved in the 487 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: shoes situation, and not only only to the extent that 488 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: he might have purchased shoes. I see, he didn't have 489 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: anything to do with the jumping. The pain someone to 490 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: jump you to take the shoes. No, No, what's that shoe? 491 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: Did you wear? Or do you wear? And I don't 492 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: know what size Keith wearas I only know what I've 493 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: been told that he wears a thirteen. And let me 494 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: say this, and let me say this. Okay, here there 495 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: is a situation that might that might well be true, 496 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: but he is the circle stance here. The shoe was 497 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: a particular shoe. It was a Rachi and Nike Harachi 498 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: blue and white high top shoe, very very very very 499 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: popular and distinctive in prison. And they would only pair 500 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: that I had seen call of me. So Andrea believes 501 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: Keith bought his stolen shoes. I wonder Andre says he 502 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: was ready to take somebody's life over these stolen shoes. 503 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: Might he be pointing the finger at Keith now as 504 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: retribution for allegedly purchasing these stolen shoes? Do you remember 505 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: talking to investigators? Do you? So? This would have been 506 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: some time later after I was brought back to Lucasville. 507 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 1: I guess just described for me a little bit of that, 508 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: Like did you have multiple meetings with them? Let me 509 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: say this in all fairness, those those those interviews were 510 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: very cloudy because, like I wasn't myself, and I'm sure 511 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: that you know, they took with the grain of salt 512 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: anything that I would have seen. I'll tell you what 513 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: they did to though that what they did to they 514 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: kind of took advantage to me. Okay. They tried to 515 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: tell me a story, and a part of it I 516 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: knew was true, and a part of it I knew 517 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: wasn't true. They tried to give me a story. Do 518 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: you remember what that was? You know, I haven't focused 519 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: on this in years, but I could think back at 520 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: the time. It was so urgently important for me to 521 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: know what had happened. I could not came out to 522 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: this day out of impossibles me that such an important 523 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 1: thing that happened to me, what happened, and not knowing 524 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: what actually happened in that sale. I do recall though, 525 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: when they told me back to Lucasfield and put me 526 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: upstairs in the infirmary, which is where they kept some 527 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: potential witnesses. And remember their interviews and the tapes. They 528 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,399 Speaker 1: were in a view and they had different numbers, right, yes, 529 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: and there was an interview number that I had associated 530 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: with the Laddin told me that. I remember. I asked 531 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: to give me a copy of that interview. You know 532 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: that sure idea that we gave it to. If you 533 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: have the interviews, If you have the interviews, the information 534 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: is there. I don't have the interviews. I have a 535 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: list of the interviews, okay. I submitted a Foyer request 536 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: to the Ohio Attorney General's Office for Andrea's interviews as 537 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 1: well as the interviews of several others, but they never 538 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: sent them. So I pull out the index of interviews. 539 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: It seems like one, two, three, four or five six 540 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: of your interviews were not recorded. Only one of them 541 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: was recorded and it was Yeah, that kind of sneak it. 542 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: I have doubts about having all those interviews and most 543 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: of them were not recorded. If I don't think that 544 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: might be the case. So when you were interviewed after 545 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: I mean you had been in a coma for a 546 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: couple of weeks, like, yes, yes, So then when you 547 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: woke up, did you like, did you remember Keith right 548 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,919 Speaker 1: out off the bat or did that come in time? When? When? When? 549 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: When I woke up, I had a group of doctors there, 550 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: but they told me that the most comparative thing that 551 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: I must do is to try not to remember about 552 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: the fens that it happened. Okay, and that was a 553 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: hard thing to do, but I would do exercise of 554 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: completely emptying my mind of thought. Unfortunately, visions of persons 555 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: would come to my mind, just like they were pistons. 556 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: But the more I tried not to think about it, 557 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: the more, you know, the versions of it would come 558 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,399 Speaker 1: to our mind. Do you remember who first brought up chief. 559 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: Do you remember if the investigators asked you if he 560 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: was there or about Hold on a second, he just 561 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: I just how in a minute, wintment, you know what 562 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: you did. You just did something. You just you just 563 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: sparked the memory of how they lied. They tried to 564 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: tell me that it was black man. They did this 565 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: to me, and I knew they were lying. That's what 566 00:39:54,320 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: it was, dear me. Yeah, I do, and I'm that 567 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 1: it was alive. He wasn't. He wasn't. He wasn't there. 568 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: They tried to give me a version where they put him. 569 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: Asked the guy, I said, do you remember who first 570 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: brought up kids name? No? No, I don't, but I 571 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: tell you this thought. Let me say this team So 572 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: when I remember him is because I named him alphabet. 573 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: I named him alphabet so that I wouldn't forget his name. 574 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: I had to put the name with the face I knew, 575 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: the face I had, I had. I had to find 576 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: out his name. And the reason why I caught him 577 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: alphabet is because of the letter another alphabet J K 578 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: L K l okay, okay, nice guy, But he was there, 579 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: he was he was at that door, because that's l 580 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: I never said that he did put his hands on there, 581 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: and I think so nels you don't know. No, I 582 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: don't want to see nobody, Oh no, defro dying. Since 583 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: my conversation with Andrea, I learned that in twenty nineteen, 584 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 1: an investigator for Keith's federal defenders met with him. At 585 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: that time, Andre allegedly told this investigator he didn't know 586 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: if Keith was the one who attacked him during the riot. 587 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: This investigator noted that Andrea had previously pointed the finger 588 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: at Keith based on the fact that he said he 589 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: saw Keith wearing his stolen shoes and the person wearing 590 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: the stolen shoes was the same person who attacked him 591 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 1: along with the death squad. But in twenty nineteen, when 592 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: the investigator told Andrea that Keith wears a size thirteen, 593 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: not his size a size ten and a half, Andre 594 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: changed his story. Fast forward to twenty twenty two, the 595 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: investigator met with Andrea again. This time Andre went back 596 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: to implicating Keith. So to recap, Andre said Keith was 597 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: one of his attackers. Then he said he didn't know 598 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: if he was, Then he said he wasn't, Then he 599 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,280 Speaker 1: said he was. So what is the truth. Does Andre 600 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: remember Keith now as clearly as he says he does, 601 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: or are his memories based on what he's read in 602 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 1: the reports and or maybe possibly heard from investigators? Or again, 603 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: is this some kind of payback for Keith allegedly buying 604 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: his beloved stolen shoes? But if Andre is right that 605 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: he saw Keith there as part of that so called 606 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: death squad, why wasn't Keith charged with his attempted murder? 607 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 1: I mean, an attempted murder charge is not a minor charge, 608 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: So why would the authorities give Keith a pass on 609 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: a charge like that when they believe he took part 610 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: in multiple murders just moments later? Wouldn't adding Andrew's attack 611 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,479 Speaker 1: for their bolster their case. I'm not sure what Keith 612 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: is going to say about any of this. So I 613 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: spoke with Andre Stockton. OK. Yeah, he says he doesn't 614 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: remember a lot and that a lot of what he 615 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: knows is from what he read in the reports. He 616 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: told me that he had these shoes, that they were 617 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: stolen from him, and he believed that you had bought 618 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: these stolen shoes. He said, I was ready to take 619 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: someone's life over it. He asked him what he remembers 620 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: from that day, and he remembers being locked up. He 621 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: remembers some guys to his cell, around six guys, And 622 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: I asked him if he saw you, and he said yes, 623 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: he said, he remembers you coming to the cell. So 624 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: what do you have to say about that? It doesn't 625 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 1: make sense based on what you just told me. It's 626 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, he had memory loss. You know, that's what 627 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: I was told. He was in a comma. This whole 628 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: story about shoes is you know, really kind of you know, 629 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: left field fight thing. But it seems like what he 630 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: was saying that he thought I stole his shoes or 631 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 1: had something to do with his shoes coming up missing, 632 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: and he was outful retribution. That's what I heard you say. 633 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,320 Speaker 1: That makes sense. You just came out of a comma 634 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,399 Speaker 1: to have memory loss in all of this. The only way, 635 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: based on his explanation to you, the only way he 636 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: could be specific. He has to have been given some 637 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: information about the details of the situation. You know, the 638 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: state has probably since had a conversation with him, saying that. 639 00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: You can't say Keith Lamar wasn't there. I said, did 640 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: he hurt you or hit you? And he said no. 641 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,720 Speaker 1: And I said, did he direct anyone to do anything? 642 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: And he said no. And so you know, he said, Leo, 643 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: he saw me inside. Oh excuse me, Leo. If he 644 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: saying he sawed me inside at L six, I'm admitting 645 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: to being in L six. I was signed to L six. 646 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 1: I came to L six. I didn't have the mask on. 647 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: If he said he saw me before he was beaten 648 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: or sorry, that's possible, but I don't see. I can't 649 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: even remember that you know this guy, you know with 650 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: this lost memory or whatever. But think you do remember 651 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: is the tennis shoes. Look, I wasn't there, so I 652 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: don't know what happened. But Andrea's story has seemed to 653 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: change over the years. What exactly motivated those changes, I 654 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm at a bit of a loss. So 655 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: I just had to reach out to someone for some 656 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,399 Speaker 1: much needed advice to hopefully help me make sense of 657 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: the conflicting information I've been gathering. I call Steve Weinberg, 658 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: who was a part of our last season. Remember Steve 659 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,800 Speaker 1: and his University of Missouri journalism students spent a semester 660 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: investigating and writing about Rodney Lincoln's case. Steve warns me 661 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: about how much work is involved in winning trust and 662 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: getting candid answers from those who are incarcerated. It's not 663 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: that it's impossible, it's just incredibly challenging. I tell Steve 664 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,320 Speaker 1: that I'm not feeling very much like a journalist these days. 665 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to stay objective, but to be painfully honest. 666 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 1: I really like Keith, and I care about what happens 667 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: to him. Steve understands my unenviable position, then reminds me 668 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,320 Speaker 1: of someone I should call who will definitely be able 669 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:59,800 Speaker 1: to help. O Holy, Yeah, how are you. I'm well, Sean, 670 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: how are you? I'm good? Thanks? How's your podcast? Covin? 671 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: That's Sean O'Brien. He was one of Rodney Lincoln's attorneys 672 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 1: who was also a part of our last season. You 673 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: know how I felt about Rodney and his case, and 674 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,720 Speaker 1: it was a five plus year journey for me. This 675 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 1: case is Sean. I can't think of much else these days. 676 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: Sean is the perfect person to talk with. His remarkable 677 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: career says it all. He is currently a professor at 678 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: UMKC Law School, but really he is an innocence lawyer 679 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: specializing in representing people sentenced to death. Three of his 680 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: first four exonerations were prison homicides, and he is most 681 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,760 Speaker 1: known for the landmark Supreme Court case on innocence Schloop 682 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: versus Dilo, which was also a prison homicide case. You know, 683 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: people used to think that being in prison and being 684 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: convicted of murder was best reason or argument that we 685 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,399 Speaker 1: should have the death penalty. But in my experience, these 686 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: are the least reliable convictions just because of the environment 687 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,400 Speaker 1: in which they happen. That's one of the reasons I 688 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: wanted to talk with you. You think things are supposed 689 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 1: to go a certain way, That's the way they go 690 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: on the quote unquote outside. What I'm learning is that 691 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 1: it's a very very different environment there, right. It is 692 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: such a different culture. I've had to consult experts in 693 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: prison culture and in prison security just so that I 694 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:36,760 Speaker 1: can understand how things work in a prison. Relationships are different, 695 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: The degree of control that one person has over another 696 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: is completely different. Loyalties within the prison are different. Law enforcement, 697 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, we think of guards as law enforcement, and 698 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,719 Speaker 1: they're really not. I think it's historical accident. Who ends 699 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,400 Speaker 1: up on which side of the bars inside of a prison. 700 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: There are good people on both sides of the bars. 701 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, but it really takes a special 702 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 1: approach because I came to the point after investigating the 703 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 1: Sloop case, the Joan Ryan CASEI Eric Clemen's case, the 704 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: Reggie Griffin case. Those are all people exonerated from prison 705 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:19,360 Speaker 1: murders because guards lied and inmates lied. Sean says, prison 706 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: culture at its core distorts the truth finding process because 707 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 1: prison is all about survival the way this fellow explained 708 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,440 Speaker 1: it to him, and he says, you come into a 709 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: prison and you've got a choice. If you got twenty 710 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: years to do, you can do it on your feet 711 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: or you can do it on your stomach. The first 712 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: thing you have to learn there is no shame in 713 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: getting an ass weapon, but there is shame in backing down. 714 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,439 Speaker 1: Before our call, I sent Seawan some court documents so 715 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 1: he could familiarize himself a little with Keith's case. I 716 00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,319 Speaker 1: jumped right in with questions about how it seems the 717 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 1: investigation was handled. In the trial transcripts, the defense read 718 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 1: from some of the interviews of you know with the 719 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 1: Ohio State Highway Patrol who ran the investigation, and these 720 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,879 Speaker 1: investigators were like, help me, help you. I need your help. 721 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,879 Speaker 1: Let's help each other, right, I mean, if you know 722 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 1: you have something valuable and doesn't have to be true, 723 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 1: it just has to be valuable, then that is a 724 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,600 Speaker 1: significant coin in the prison economy. What you've described about 725 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:39,439 Speaker 1: the investigators techniques, you know, help me, help you. I 726 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 1: need your help with this. It's a page out of 727 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:49,520 Speaker 1: the read interrogation method, which is not a method conducive 728 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:55,240 Speaker 1: to producing truthful statements. The read interrogation technique was developed 729 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,680 Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties. Some say it can be useful 730 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: in getting information from uncooperative suspects. Others say it results 731 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,919 Speaker 1: in a high rate of false confessions because of its 732 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: use of deceit. So the investigation, quite often in a 733 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:21,640 Speaker 1: case like this, is confirming a pre existing theory about 734 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: what happened. They're not truly investigating. They're looking for custom 735 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,520 Speaker 1: made puzzle pieces to fit their story. And that's commonly 736 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,720 Speaker 1: what happens in a prison setting. And so I would 737 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: want to know who is present during these interviews. I 738 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,240 Speaker 1: would want to know where were these inmates being housed 739 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,400 Speaker 1: and with whom, what was the proximity to the people 740 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 1: we think might be the real killer. Even though everyone 741 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:56,799 Speaker 1: who is testifying for the prosecution, there are inconsistencies in 742 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 1: their testimony. They tell some story, right, part of me 743 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: can understand why the jury, even though it was an 744 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,839 Speaker 1: all way jury and that was absolutely unfair. I could 745 00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: see why a jury just at face value, if you 746 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,239 Speaker 1: hear so many people telling a similar story and all 747 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:21,239 Speaker 1: pointing the finger at Keith, why they ended up with 748 00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 1: the verdict that they did. You know, the consistency isn't 749 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:31,879 Speaker 1: something that would bother me that much. Question is the 750 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,440 Speaker 1: exact consistency and the closer it gets that actually adds 751 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,800 Speaker 1: an element of suspiciousness. Fit just seems to fit together 752 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:44,759 Speaker 1: a little too well. Then you've got problems. When you're 753 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 1: locked up in prison, you are extremely vulnerable to the 754 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: pressure to give the prosecution the story that it wants. 755 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:01,480 Speaker 1: So I'm suspicious of inmate testimony for a lot of reasons. 756 00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 1: I mean, prosecutors are also suspicious of inmate testimony, except 757 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 1: when inmates are testifying for them. I wanted to talk 758 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: to you so Special Prosecutor Mark Pismeyer, when asked about Brady, 759 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: how he applied Brady to the case, he said that 760 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:22,920 Speaker 1: he applied a narrow Brady standard. And first of all, 761 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,799 Speaker 1: have you ever heard that before? You know, a lot 762 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: of prosecutors don't understand what Brady versus Maryland means. It 763 00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,320 Speaker 1: means that the prosecutor has to turn over any evidence 764 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,560 Speaker 1: favorable to the defendant, whether it be on the issue 765 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,640 Speaker 1: of guilt or innocence or punishment. Where they play games 766 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,080 Speaker 1: with typically is on whether or not it's material. And 767 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 1: the definition of material is if the jury hears it, 768 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,239 Speaker 1: is there a reasonable likelihood of a different result. And 769 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,120 Speaker 1: so I hear a lot of prosecutors say, well, it's 770 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 1: not Brady evidence because it's not exonerating. That's not the 771 00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,879 Speaker 1: Brady standard. Well, and it's interesting because in Keith's case, 772 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: Stacy Gordon, as part of his plea agreement, they interviewed 773 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:11,319 Speaker 1: Stacy Gordon again and in it they asked do you 774 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,919 Speaker 1: know Keith Lamar And he said no. And they said 775 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,319 Speaker 1: did you see Keith Lamar and L six and he 776 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,880 Speaker 1: said no. So that was never turned over, although on 777 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,279 Speaker 1: the stand he was one of the star witnesses who 778 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,520 Speaker 1: said that he watched Keith as a death squad leader 779 00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,120 Speaker 1: go sell to cell calling for the killings of these snitches. 780 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,320 Speaker 1: When you have a witness who says I saw the 781 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 1: defendant you commit the crime, and then on another occasion 782 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,480 Speaker 1: says I didn't see him at the scene of the 783 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,960 Speaker 1: crime at all. That's Brady material, That's exactly it. That's 784 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,799 Speaker 1: the kind of thing you'd want the jury to know 785 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,319 Speaker 1: before deciding whether or not to believe that witness. By 786 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,399 Speaker 1: the way of the fifty trials, and I think there 787 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: are forty seven convictions, five are on death row, there 788 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 1: was no physical evidence tying anyone to any of the crimes. 789 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,320 Speaker 1: And that can't imagine there's not blood spatters or fingerprints 790 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: or some other physical evidence even and on certainly Lamar's clothing, 791 00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 1: his clothing would be splattered with blood if he were 792 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:22,279 Speaker 1: present in any of these Well, what allegedly happened was 793 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,200 Speaker 1: three hundred men were out there, They're all brought into 794 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,240 Speaker 1: the gymnasium and they're all stripped naked, all their clothes 795 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,480 Speaker 1: are thrown into a big heap, and what I was 796 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:35,960 Speaker 1: told was they were all eventually burned. So that seems 797 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: to me to be what I would call the foliation 798 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,960 Speaker 1: of evidence. That means that you've destroyed evidence in the 799 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,960 Speaker 1: case that's a crime, right, And so I would one 800 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,160 Speaker 1: of the things I would do in my investigation and 801 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,680 Speaker 1: the discovery is that I would focus like a laser 802 00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,960 Speaker 1: beam on who made that decision, what did they know 803 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,000 Speaker 1: at the time they made it, and what was their 804 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: involvement in the subsequent prosecute. To me, is a really 805 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,200 Speaker 1: important part of the story. I mean, how can you 806 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,760 Speaker 1: say somebody's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt when you destroyed 807 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,680 Speaker 1: the evidence that could have exonerated That's atrocious and you 808 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,359 Speaker 1: know likely, I think there's an argument here that they 809 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,040 Speaker 1: had a scenario that they wanted to prove and they 810 00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,239 Speaker 1: didn't want physical evidence to get in the way of 811 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:28,520 Speaker 1: that story. I've reached out to prosecutors Mark Petemeyer, Seth Teeger, 812 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,359 Speaker 1: and Bill Anderson with a list of questions, including this 813 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,600 Speaker 1: one where keats and the other prisoner's clothes burned or destroyed. 814 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: I'm still waiting to hear back the prosecutor's theory of 815 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:47,760 Speaker 1: the case that produces the original conviction and death sentence 816 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: is kind of the official story that the court signs 817 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,279 Speaker 1: off on. And so one of the things I do 818 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:59,000 Speaker 1: when I'm training post conviction lawyers is that you've got 819 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,360 Speaker 1: to come up with a different, better, more truthful story. 820 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 1: And that's a big challenge. Is there any physical evidence 821 00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:12,840 Speaker 1: linking Lamar to the crime. In most exonerations, there is 822 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,200 Speaker 1: no physical evidence linking the defendant of the crime. Were 823 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,240 Speaker 1: there other ways in which the trial was unfair? Is 824 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 1: it tainted by race discrimination? If that's the case, that's 825 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,920 Speaker 1: a red flag. It Did the prosecution depend heavily on 826 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,680 Speaker 1: the use of inmate testimony? That's a huge red flag 827 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,440 Speaker 1: in that red flag gets bigger if any of that 828 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,960 Speaker 1: testimony was incentivized. And then I look at whether or 829 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: not there is evidence implicating another person that was omitted 830 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,320 Speaker 1: from Keith's trial. That would be a huge red flag. 831 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:51,080 Speaker 1: I can see from just the little you've shown me, 832 00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:56,240 Speaker 1: and putting that together with what I already know about 833 00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:01,040 Speaker 1: prison culture, prison investigation, I think that a narrative could 834 00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:07,600 Speaker 1: be assembled for Keith that would demonstrate the unreliability of 835 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,280 Speaker 1: this conviction. The challenge is what is the new story? 836 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:17,439 Speaker 1: You put these pieces together and you assemble that new story. Yeah, 837 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:22,680 Speaker 1: oh my god, Sean, thank you so much, Absolutely glad. 838 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what happened, you know, I don't know, 839 00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: but knowing that he may be executed, it's just it's 840 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,800 Speaker 1: just a very upsetting Yeah, you know a man is 841 00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:45,320 Speaker 1: about to die. Who my beings? Next time? I'm the 842 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:50,120 Speaker 1: Real Killer. But what was intended to be a pieceful 843 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:53,440 Speaker 1: protest end up turned into a full scale rebellion, A 844 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,520 Speaker 1: revealing conversation with the man who many say started it all, 845 00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: the former Immam at Louville. So when you got to 846 00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,240 Speaker 1: L six and you saw the people that you wanted 847 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:11,760 Speaker 1: put away for safekeeping had been murdered, what did you think? 848 00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,120 Speaker 1: I want to know, how did they get in here? 849 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 1: Who let them in? A lot of people came out 850 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,880 Speaker 1: and said Keith was the leader of the Dusk squad. 851 00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: Did you see him inside L six or the L 852 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,640 Speaker 1: Block in those early minutes and hours of the uprising? 853 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:46,320 Speaker 1: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, 854 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:51,560 Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman, Executive producers Leah Rothman and 855 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:57,280 Speaker 1: Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive 856 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:03,800 Speaker 1: producer Paulina Williams, See Your Associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator 857 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:08,800 Speaker 1: George Fom. Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy. Mixed 858 01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:13,720 Speaker 1: and mastered by Cameron Taggy Audio Engineering by Matt Jacobsen. 859 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,160 Speaker 1: Studio engineering by Anna Moolshan legal counsel for A y 860 01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:25,200 Speaker 1: R Media, Gianni Douglas, executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard