WEBVTT - Listener Questions #9

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<v Speaker 1>Are adams mostly empty space? What kind of host should

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<v Speaker 1>a parasite chase?

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<v Speaker 2>Do other particles travel at the speed of light? Why

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<v Speaker 2>is dark chocolate better than white?

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<v Speaker 1>Biology? Physics, archaeology, forestry. Thankfully no one asked about chemistry.

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<v Speaker 2>But whatever question keeps you up at night, Daniel and

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly's answer will make it right.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Another Listener's Questions episode on Daniel and Kelly's

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<v Speaker 1>Extraordinary Universe. Hello, I'm Kelly Waiter Smith. I study parasites

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<v Speaker 1>and space.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist. I study particles

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<v Speaker 2>and the spaces between them.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah well, one of the first questions that we have

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<v Speaker 1>today is about ball, which makes me wonder. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>usually when you think about scientists, be they ecologists or physicist.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about to make a family inappropriate balls joke, Kelly, Oh.

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<v Speaker 1>No, no, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>I just felt like the audience was like, uh, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>where are we going with this?

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<v Speaker 1>This is a joke about sports.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my goodness, sports balls?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, go ahead, Oh my goodness, There's.

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<v Speaker 2>Never been an inappropriate joke about balls and sports. You

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<v Speaker 2>know what, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Feel like you're pigeonholing me here. Daniel and I've got

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<v Speaker 1>a lot more range than you're giving me credit for.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just looking out for the audience. You know, their

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<v Speaker 2>kids in the backseat listening to this, and I just

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<v Speaker 2>want to make sure this joke is clean or anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>go ahead, tell us about sports balls.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not even a joke. It's a question how

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<v Speaker 1>you've raised all the expectations. So my question is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>usually when you think about scientists, you don't immediately think, oh, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>they're great at sports, although many of us are. So

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<v Speaker 1>are there any sports where being a physicist would give

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<v Speaker 1>you an advantage? Now there is a all right clean question, Daniel.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll point out it is.

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<v Speaker 2>A very clean question, yes, very family appropriate. But not

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<v Speaker 2>an easy question, you know, because I feel like sports

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<v Speaker 2>don't rely on calculations. You might think, oh, you're playing baseball,

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<v Speaker 2>you want to calculate to the trajectory of the pitch

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<v Speaker 2>so it gets exactly in the right spot. But nobody

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<v Speaker 2>has time for that. All this stuff is intuitive, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all muscle memory. It's amazing that your brain can

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<v Speaker 2>do that all so fast. It's got this heuristic physics

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<v Speaker 2>engine inside of it. It's just like almost instantly tells

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<v Speaker 2>you exactly how to kick the ball so it goes

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<v Speaker 2>exactly where you want it to go, though of course

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<v Speaker 2>it's not that easy. But does being a physicist help

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<v Speaker 2>you in any sport? I don't think the answer is yes.

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<v Speaker 2>The only thing I can imagine is that being a

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<v Speaker 2>physicist might make it more enjoyable to be a sports fan,

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<v Speaker 2>because you have the science to know, like how difficult

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<v Speaker 2>something is, Like to accelerate a baseball at t one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred miles an hour. That's tough, to put enough spin

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<v Speaker 2>on a soccer ball so that it goes around the defenders,

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<v Speaker 2>like that's some serious work. So you know, maybe, if anything,

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<v Speaker 2>it helps you appreciate the sports.

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<v Speaker 1>I like that. I do feel like in general, science

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<v Speaker 1>makes me appreciate just about everything about the world more.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, I've talked to people who are like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>why does it increase your joy to know the chemical

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<v Speaker 1>reaction that makes firefly butts glow? And I'm like, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know. Just the fact that nature came up with

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<v Speaker 1>that makes it even more wonderful and amazing. And anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>science makes everything better.

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<v Speaker 2>Science does make everything better. I was just visiting some

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<v Speaker 2>folks at teen Harvard and talking to them about the

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<v Speaker 2>value of science in society. I was talking to a

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<v Speaker 2>young guy and he was making the argument that science

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<v Speaker 2>has its own value. You know, people often say science

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<v Speaker 2>has value because it develops technology and changes our lives,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's all true, but I could see that he

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<v Speaker 2>was trying to express something deeper, which is that, like,

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<v Speaker 2>science makes the universe more wonderful and our experience of

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<v Speaker 2>it deeper and more pleasurable, in the same way that

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<v Speaker 2>like art does. You know, what value does art add

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<v Speaker 2>to society? Adds to the experience of being human and science,

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<v Speaker 2>though it does have these spinoffs, I think it also

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<v Speaker 2>deepens our appreciation of the universe just in and of itself,

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<v Speaker 2>the same way that art does. And I really respect that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that a lot, but I think it's not

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<v Speaker 2>often said that really science has its own intrinsic value

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<v Speaker 2>to humanity.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree. I study galls, which are these growths

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<v Speaker 1>on trees and they can take lots of different shapes,

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<v Speaker 1>but insects live inside of them, and every once in

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<v Speaker 1>a while you'll see an insect come out of them

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<v Speaker 1>that's like iridescent and just absolutely gorgeous, and it's so

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<v Speaker 1>small that if you don't get it under a microscope,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't get to see how gorgeous it is. But

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<v Speaker 1>nature has all.

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<v Speaker 2>Of this tiny but fabulous.

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<v Speaker 1>It is tiny but fabulous. There's so much about the

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<v Speaker 1>world that we don't even know yet. Some of these

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<v Speaker 1>insects that emerge, they haven't even been described by science yet,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're gorgeous. There's just so much cool stuff happening

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<v Speaker 1>in nature. We don't even know all about it. And

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<v Speaker 1>the more science teaches us, the more amazing it is.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, well, though it might get us even further

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<v Speaker 2>off track. I have a philosophy of biology question. I

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<v Speaker 2>always wondered about that. I I now want to ask

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<v Speaker 2>you because you brought it up essentially, And that's why

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<v Speaker 2>do we find nature beautiful? Like? Do you think it's

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<v Speaker 2>possible that we could have evolved on a planet and

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<v Speaker 2>been like, Eh, it's kind of ugly here. Does every

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<v Speaker 2>species love the vistas and the fabulousness of the critters

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<v Speaker 2>on their planets? Are their aliens out there that are

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<v Speaker 2>like an Our whole planet's kind of brown? And but

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if you evolved on Mars, you'd be like, wow,

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<v Speaker 2>look at the glorious red.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great question I don't know the answer to.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm glad that we do enjoy the beauty of nature.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it would suck, yeah, right. I wondering if

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<v Speaker 2>there's like a reason for that, if it's evolutionary, if

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<v Speaker 2>it's just luck, or if the universe is just inherently beautiful,

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<v Speaker 2>or if it's something about us. Then humans just like

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<v Speaker 2>to find beauty and things.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, so I'm just a bitballing here. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know that there's a solid final answer here, but I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think all animals are to some extent queued into

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<v Speaker 1>the things that other animals are doing around them, because

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<v Speaker 1>you need to like make sure, you know, get eaten,

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<v Speaker 1>you need to find the food you're going to eat.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think we're all paying attention to whatever degree

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<v Speaker 1>our sensory systems will allow us to. But do we

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<v Speaker 1>find it beautiful? I just don't know how we could

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<v Speaker 1>even ask that. I mean, when you see a dog

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<v Speaker 1>playing in the snow, do they think that's beautiful or

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<v Speaker 1>do they think that's fun?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's beautiful. How much fun we're having that

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<v Speaker 2>makes me happy? Yeah, it's incredible. I think this connects

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<v Speaker 2>to the whole philosophy of consciousness discussion we have with

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<v Speaker 2>Megan Peters recently about the nature of your experience, what

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<v Speaker 2>it's like to be you or an alien or a dog,

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<v Speaker 2>and how little we understand about that. So maybe someday

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<v Speaker 2>the cognitive scientists will be able to answer that question,

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<v Speaker 2>but not today.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll have to get Megan Peters back on the show

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<v Speaker 1>in a couple of years and she'll give us the answer.

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<v Speaker 2>But in the meantime, we do have some questions from

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<v Speaker 2>listeners that might actually have answers, or at least we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to do our best to provide the answers, and

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<v Speaker 2>then we're going to check in with the listeners to

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<v Speaker 2>see whether or not we have satisfied their curiosity or

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<v Speaker 2>just inflamed it further.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's part of two. So let's listen to the

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<v Speaker 1>first question.

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<v Speaker 4>Since every atom is mostly empty space, and we know

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<v Speaker 4>how much matter there is in the universe, how big

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<v Speaker 4>would a ball be if we made one only out

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<v Speaker 4>of the protons, neutrons, and electrons, and we just eliminated

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<v Speaker 4>the empty space. Would that fit in my trunk?

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<v Speaker 2>All right? What do you think of this question from Martin?

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<v Speaker 2>Is this the kind of thing you think about also

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<v Speaker 2>keeps me up at night.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know it's why. Actually, the more you and

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<v Speaker 1>I talk, the more interested I am and what the

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<v Speaker 1>right way is to visualize an atom, Because you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the more we talk, the more clear it is to

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<v Speaker 1>me that the sort of diagrams that I saw in

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<v Speaker 1>my science textbook is no longer how we think about it.

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<v Speaker 1>And so well, I haven't personally thought of this question

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<v Speaker 1>prior to hearing it. I'm excited to hear the answer.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I'm excited to talk about it because this

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<v Speaker 2>isn't the kind of thing you hear about in popular

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<v Speaker 2>science all the time. It's like a g whiz fact.

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<v Speaker 2>The atom is all filled with empty space that I

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<v Speaker 2>think is cool to say, but if you dig into

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't really have a lot of meaning. Actually misleads

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<v Speaker 2>people into the nature of these quantum particles and the

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<v Speaker 2>atom rather than giving them any clarity. So I'm actually

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<v Speaker 2>looking forward to the chance to unpack it and give

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<v Speaker 2>people a clearer sense for what's going on inside the atom.

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<v Speaker 1>Can I ask a question that we'll test how well

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<v Speaker 1>I've been listening in the past, Yes, Oh boy, All right,

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<v Speaker 1>here we go. Historically, when I've done this, I've usually

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<v Speaker 1>embarrassed myself. But I'm moving forward anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's what I'm hoping for here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, you know I aim to please. Okay, So

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<v Speaker 1>in the past we've talked about how, you know, particles

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<v Speaker 1>aren't like points, they're like waves, and so you know,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're thinking about empty space, is there less empty

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<v Speaker 1>space because it's not points, it's waves and those waves

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<v Speaker 1>take up a lot of space inside the atom, or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you can think of those waves as filling

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of the atom. Is that part of the

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<v Speaker 1>answer or did Kelly totally miss the point again?

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<v Speaker 2>No, that's totally part of the answer. You shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>thinking these particles as just point particles. In some of

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<v Speaker 2>our calculations, it's convenient to do that, and when it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter, we do it. But when you do zoom

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<v Speaker 2>in on these things, it doesn't make sense to think

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<v Speaker 2>of them as points but little distributed wave packets. And

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<v Speaker 2>the answer has a couple more wrinkles to it. One

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<v Speaker 2>is like, well, what does it mean to have the

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<v Speaker 2>size of a particle? What are we talking about here?

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<v Speaker 2>Do particles have a surface? The way he's imagining packing

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<v Speaker 2>these things together where the surface is touched. And then

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<v Speaker 2>also is the space in the atom even empty at all?

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<v Speaker 2>And the answer is no, But let's just talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the first one. Because this idea of like taking the

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<v Speaker 2>particles and making a ball of just them with no

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<v Speaker 2>empty space packing them together really leans on your mental

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<v Speaker 2>image of particles as balls that you could like squeeze

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<v Speaker 2>together so the surface is touch Like if you have

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<v Speaker 2>a pile of tennis balls, you can think about how

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<v Speaker 2>to pack them into an object, right, So they're touching,

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<v Speaker 2>they're squeezed in together, and it's actually a really interesting

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<v Speaker 2>mathematical problem, like how many spheres can you pack into

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<v Speaker 2>a cube. It's hard and it's fascinating. It's complicated, but

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<v Speaker 2>it requires these things to have a specific shape, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Packing tennis balls requires them to have a surface, a

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<v Speaker 2>well defined point where the tennis ball ends and the

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<v Speaker 2>new one can start. And usually you think about these

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<v Speaker 2>things as rigid and because tennis balls you could squeeze,

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<v Speaker 2>but imagine like a perfectly rigid sphere, it has an

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<v Speaker 2>edge to it, a surface, right, And we think about

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<v Speaker 2>stuff as having surfaces because we live in a world

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<v Speaker 2>where they seem to you put your butt in the chair,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a contact between the surface of your butt and

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<v Speaker 2>the surface of the chair, and your butt doesn't phase

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<v Speaker 2>through the chair, and you can say where one starts

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<v Speaker 2>and the other one ends. Right. So in our classical

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<v Speaker 2>macroscopic world, this makes a lot of sense to have

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<v Speaker 2>a surface and to pack things together. And now we're

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<v Speaker 2>trying to take that and apply it to quantum particles,

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<v Speaker 2>protons and neutrons and electrons, and that only works if

0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.040
<v Speaker 2>they also have a well defined surface, if you can

0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.320
<v Speaker 2>even talk about what it means for them to have

0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:48.520
<v Speaker 2>a size.

0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.600
<v Speaker 1>And I feel like the answer is that it doesn't

0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:52.960
<v Speaker 1>make sense because of the wave stuff we were talking about.

0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.120
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't make sense because of the wave stuff. But

0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.920
<v Speaker 2>even more deeply, it doesn't make sense because the size

0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.000
<v Speaker 2>of an object depends on how you poke it. Unfortunately,

0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.760
<v Speaker 2>so in our macroscopic world, the reason when you poke

0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.080
<v Speaker 2>the wall your finger doesn't go through it is that

0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.600
<v Speaker 2>there are forces there. There's like a mesh of atoms

0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.720
<v Speaker 2>in the wall and a mesh of atoms in your finger,

0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and those things are repelling each other electromagnetically, right, So

0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.840
<v Speaker 2>that's what defines the surface, is these charge particles repelling

0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.079
<v Speaker 2>each other. Okay, so think about an electron. Right, take

0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.120
<v Speaker 2>an electron and poke it with another electron. What happens, Well,

0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.600
<v Speaker 2>it gets repelled because like charges repel each other. Right, Well,

0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.360
<v Speaker 2>what happens if you poke it with a neutrino? Phases

0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.679
<v Speaker 2>right through because the electron and the neutrino don't interact.

0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:38.720
<v Speaker 1>So then the point is that you can't find the

0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.280
<v Speaker 1>exterior of the electron because it just goes through and

0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.480
<v Speaker 1>you don't see where they bounce off. If that's where

0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:46.600
<v Speaker 1>you're going, why can't you just define the outside of

0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.800
<v Speaker 1>electron by what it does when you throw another electron

0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:50.160
<v Speaker 1>at it?

0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.040
<v Speaker 2>You could, and that works if you're just packing electrons. Right,

0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.720
<v Speaker 2>The answer depends And this is also even true for

0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.840
<v Speaker 2>like macroscopic objects. Take for example, the Earth. Right, where's

0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:02.480
<v Speaker 2>the edge of the Earth. Well, I don't know. I

0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.239
<v Speaker 2>mean the atmosphere peters out and it's kind of gradual,

0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.120
<v Speaker 2>and so like what happens if you shoot a rock

0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.040
<v Speaker 2>at the Earth. It also depends on the size of

0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.560
<v Speaker 2>the rock. Right, does it bounce off the atmosphere, does

0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.560
<v Speaker 2>it penetrate the atmosphere? Does it destroy the earth? The

0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 2>same thing is true if you shoot charged particles at

0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.080
<v Speaker 2>the Earth, so like where you would say the edge

0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.480
<v Speaker 2>of the Earth is depends on how you probe it.

0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.319
<v Speaker 2>What finger you are using. Are using a finger that's

0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.440
<v Speaker 2>electrically charged, are using a finger that's only charged in

0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.839
<v Speaker 2>the weak force, are using something that has no charge

0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.320
<v Speaker 2>at all? Like, it depends on how you probe it. Unfortunately,

0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.040
<v Speaker 2>and you might think, oh, this is nippicking. Can't you

0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.800
<v Speaker 2>just choose a definition. You can choose a definition, but

0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.439
<v Speaker 2>I just want to highlight that, like, these quantum objects

0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 2>don't have a well defined surface the way classical objects

0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.000
<v Speaker 2>do because classical objects only interact with the electromagnetism, right,

0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.120
<v Speaker 2>All these other charges are essentially irrelevant. That's why it

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.600
<v Speaker 2>seems like you have a simple, crisp definition of an

0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.439
<v Speaker 2>edge for a ball or a shoe or the wall.

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.400
<v Speaker 2>But for quantum objects, they have all these other kinds

0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 2>of interactions. So it really depends on how you're poking them.

0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 2>And if we're going to pack protons and neutrons and

0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.200
<v Speaker 2>electrons together, we have all those charges at.

0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 1>Work, all right, Yeah, this stuff is complicated. When you

0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.440
<v Speaker 1>go to space conferences, you could talk to space geeks

0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.199
<v Speaker 1>for like literally days about the definition of where space

0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.000
<v Speaker 1>starts and where Earth ends or begins. But okay, so

0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.560
<v Speaker 1>we've been talking about how you measure how big things

0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.240
<v Speaker 1>are and why that's complicated. Have scientists to some extent

0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:29.040
<v Speaker 1>agreed on how big any of the particles are electrons, protons, neutrons,

0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.160
<v Speaker 1>or do we just have no definition for any of them?

0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 2>No, we have some definitions, and of course the answer

0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 2>is it depends.

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Aha, just like ecology, I know, you're no better.

0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Literally, there's a twenty page paper just on this question

0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.160
<v Speaker 2>how do we define the size of a proton? Because

0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.280
<v Speaker 2>people have come up with a bunch of different ways

0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.760
<v Speaker 2>to do it, like shoot this thing at it and

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.680
<v Speaker 2>measure at what angle it starts to change its deflection,

0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.880
<v Speaker 2>et cetera, et cetera. There's a few different ways, and

0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.199
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole paper trying to like harmonize them into one.

0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.920
<v Speaker 2>But the answer is it's not simple to define the

0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.480
<v Speaker 2>size of a proton. Basically, though, what you do is

0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.480
<v Speaker 2>you shoot electrons at the proton, and you shoot it

0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 2>at various angles, and you see the deflection and like,

0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.320
<v Speaker 2>at some point, basically the electron gets gently deflected and

0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 2>then suddenly it starts to get more dramatically deflected, like

0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.400
<v Speaker 2>it's bouncing back right, there's more of a collision there.

0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 2>And you can measure the size of a proton like

0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.680
<v Speaker 2>this is different than what happens with an electron. Electron

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.520
<v Speaker 2>is either a fundamental and a point particle or it's

0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.080
<v Speaker 2>just really really small. We can't tell the difference right now.

0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.480
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna have a whole episode soon about like probing

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.560
<v Speaker 2>the inside of the electron. The electron is so small

0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 2>that we can't measure its size, but the proton is

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.640
<v Speaker 2>definitely bigger than the electron. We can roughly measure its size,

0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.920
<v Speaker 2>and you know, people argue about the exact definition, but

0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:53.000
<v Speaker 2>roughly it's ten to the minus fifteen meters. It's really

0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 2>really really tiny thing.

0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:59.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so now we have a handwavy guess for

0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.040
<v Speaker 1>how big proton is. But that's only one of the

0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:03.880
<v Speaker 1>three things we need to pack together. So where do

0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 1>we go from here?

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so now trying to imagine taking these objects and

0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 2>trying to make a ball out of them. So you know,

0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Martin's question is basically, take all the protons and neutrons

0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.040
<v Speaker 2>and neutrons in the universe and squeeze them together with

0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.520
<v Speaker 2>no empty space. How big is that? Right? So can

0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.000
<v Speaker 2>you pack that stuff together? Well, you can pack protons

0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 2>and neutrons together, right, And that's what the nucleus is,

0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of protons and neutrons packed together. Right, And

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.200
<v Speaker 2>so far we've seen ones with you know, hundreds of nucleons.

0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Definitely not you know, ten to eighty like we have

0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 2>in the universe. But in principle, you can pack these

0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.400
<v Speaker 2>things together. And for example, the hearts of neutron stars

0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.640
<v Speaker 2>are a bunch of these things just all squeeze together.

0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.000
<v Speaker 2>So that's definitely possible. But again, you're not packing them

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.560
<v Speaker 2>like tennis balls. The distance between these things is not

0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the physical edge of them, but it's where those bonds determine.

0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.280
<v Speaker 2>They're happy to be, right, because you squeeze them together

0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 2>enough and they change into something else. Like he squeeze

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.080
<v Speaker 2>to newrons together, you're going to form something that's not

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 2>a neutron. Like actually, at the heart of neutron stars,

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 2>they're not neutrons anymore. They form this weird new state

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.080
<v Speaker 2>of matter called nuclear pasta, which is nearly as delicious

0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:11.800
<v Speaker 2>as it sounds.

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Do you physicists work hungry? All the time, and is

0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:18.040
<v Speaker 1>that how we came up with spaghetification and stuff like this.

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, if you read papers about the hearts of

0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.400
<v Speaker 2>neutrons starts, they have these figures showing these like weird

0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.160
<v Speaker 2>sheets of matter and they're like, this is nuclear lasagna,

0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 2>and if you keep squeezing it you get like nuclear

0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.240
<v Speaker 2>RIGATONI and like it's really regular areas.

0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:33.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm on board. That sounds great, But.

0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.440
<v Speaker 2>The point is you're not just squeezing them together based

0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.440
<v Speaker 2>on this radius. There are bonds here, and the balance

0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.320
<v Speaker 2>of these forces determine how you could actually pack them together. Now,

0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 2>try to add some electrons, right, Martin wants us to

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.480
<v Speaker 2>squeeze in all the particles. So you might think, well, well,

0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.440
<v Speaker 2>how close could you really bring electrons to these particles. Well,

0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.080
<v Speaker 2>the answer is the hydrogen atom. That's what the hydrogen

0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.280
<v Speaker 2>atom is. It's the closest you can bring an electron

0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.120
<v Speaker 2>to be happy near a proton and a neutron. It's

0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:05.920
<v Speaker 2>already in its minimum state. You can't localize electrons more

0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.920
<v Speaker 2>than that because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Their really

0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.960
<v Speaker 2>tiny mass means a small uncertainty in their momentum means

0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.200
<v Speaker 2>a huge uncertainty in their velocity. So basically, you can't

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.920
<v Speaker 2>bring electrons closer to protons and neutrons than they already

0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.399
<v Speaker 2>are the most of the universe. Right, And you might think, okay,

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.320
<v Speaker 2>but I'm doing this mental thought exercise where I'm bringing

0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.720
<v Speaker 2>them together to touch their surfaces. No, they don't have surfaces, right.

0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.400
<v Speaker 2>The concept of a surface should be replaced in your

0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.359
<v Speaker 2>mind with like the forces between these things. How happy

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.080
<v Speaker 2>are they to come close together?

0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so say you squish everything together and the forces

0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.800
<v Speaker 1>get as close as they're comfortable getting together. I know

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.000
<v Speaker 1>that when you answer a question, you go big or

0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.040
<v Speaker 1>you go home. So you've done this calculation.

0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:54.720
<v Speaker 2>This is just one more thing I want to say

0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.000
<v Speaker 2>before we get there, which is I think this also

0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 2>should change your view of the atom. Like if you're

0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.440
<v Speaker 2>thinking about the atom as these tiny little dots orbiting

0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.920
<v Speaker 2>with mostly empty space, remember that these dots are where

0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.280
<v Speaker 2>they are because it's a balance of the forces, which

0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.679
<v Speaker 2>means is a lot of energy being exchanged constantly. So

0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:14.919
<v Speaker 2>if you like the particle picture of forces, that like

0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.440
<v Speaker 2>the way things indirect or electromagnetically is by exchanging photons,

0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.159
<v Speaker 2>you should take your mental image that's like filled with

0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.280
<v Speaker 2>darkness between all these particles and replace it with like

0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:28.159
<v Speaker 2>a blinding ocean of photons. And the center of the

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:32.359
<v Speaker 2>atom is not empty. It's a sea of frothing energy, right,

0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.360
<v Speaker 2>and so it's not really empty in any sense. But yeah,

0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.320
<v Speaker 2>let's take Martin's question at face value. We know you

0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.040
<v Speaker 2>can't treat these things as tiny balls, but let's try, right, So,

0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.680
<v Speaker 2>ignoring the balance of the forces, let's just assume that

0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.400
<v Speaker 2>the proton is a hard little sphere like a billiard ball,

0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.879
<v Speaker 2>with a radius of ten to the minus fifteen meters.

0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Then you can calculate its volume, and that would be

0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:58.280
<v Speaker 2>ten to the minus forty five meters cubed roughly. Now,

0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:00.959
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of protons in the universe. We estimate

0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:05.160
<v Speaker 2>is about ten to the eighty protons in the observable universe.

0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.679
<v Speaker 2>We don't know how big the full universe is, but

0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.280
<v Speaker 2>the sphere that we can observe, we know it's volume,

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.600
<v Speaker 2>we know its density, we know how much matter there is.

0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.280
<v Speaker 2>So that's a number we can calculate, and that's a

0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.240
<v Speaker 2>really really big number. It's like nobody can hold that

0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.400
<v Speaker 2>number in their mind. But fortunately our mathematics can describe it.

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.560
<v Speaker 2>So take ten to the eighty tiny little balls, each

0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.360
<v Speaker 2>of which has this tiny little volume, and you pack

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.280
<v Speaker 2>it together and you end up with something whose volume

0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.080
<v Speaker 2>is really quite large. It's ten to the thirty five

0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 2>cubic meters. And it's flobergasting to think about, because you're

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.639
<v Speaker 2>taking these objects whose individual volumes are ten of the

0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.879
<v Speaker 2>minus forty five cubic meters, and you end up with

0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.159
<v Speaker 2>a total volume of ten to the thirty five. And

0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.480
<v Speaker 2>the reason that number still ends up so big is

0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.320
<v Speaker 2>just the sheer number of protons in the universe is

0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.560
<v Speaker 2>just such a big number that, even though they're so tiny,

0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.880
<v Speaker 2>they add up to make a really big ball. It's

0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.400
<v Speaker 2>not easy to visualize ten to the thirty five cubic meters.

0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.960
<v Speaker 2>But that's a sphere whose radius is about a trillion meters,

0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.880
<v Speaker 2>which is like seven au or about fifteen hundred times

0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.639
<v Speaker 2>the radius of the Sun. So if you did this,

0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.920
<v Speaker 2>took all the protons in the universe and like centered

0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.240
<v Speaker 2>them in the center of the Solar System, it would

0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.280
<v Speaker 2>be a sphere whose edge was between Jupiter and Saturn's orbit.

0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:30.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, that was a great question, Martin. There

0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:31.600
<v Speaker 1>was so much unpacked there, So.

0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:33.720
<v Speaker 2>No, Martin, you can't put it in your trunk. Ah

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:36.520
<v Speaker 2>un THISUS. Martin's got a really big truck.

0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it makes some really big trucks in the US.

0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:44.119
<v Speaker 2>It makes it ridiculously big trucks that are good of

0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:47.919
<v Speaker 2>running over pedestrians or hauling the universe. All right, Martin,

0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.439
<v Speaker 2>let us know what you think of our answer.

0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.240
<v Speaker 4>That was absolutely fantastic.

0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much.

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:55.560
<v Speaker 4>Not only did it answer my question, but it also

0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.440
<v Speaker 4>answered twenty other questions I.

0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Didn't even know I had.

0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.000
<v Speaker 4>And my original question actually came up because it was

0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 4>moving apartments. So now I know that with my van,

0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.280
<v Speaker 4>I guess I'd have to do at least four drives

0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:12.320
<v Speaker 4>round trip if I wanted to move the universe. So

0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.960
<v Speaker 4>thank you very much.

0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.159
<v Speaker 1>All right. Next up, we have a biology question from Ricky.

0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.640
<v Speaker 3>I've been trying to figure out the way to even

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 3>phrase this question for a long time. When you have

0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:46.200
<v Speaker 3>a carnivore, they tend to run down the sick, the weak,

0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:52.000
<v Speaker 3>and the elderly. But argument says they prefer an elephant

0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.040
<v Speaker 3>in its prime if they could get it. So my

0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:59.080
<v Speaker 3>question is parasites, how opportunistic are they? Is there a

0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.400
<v Speaker 3>level of health that they tend to be looking for.

0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.720
<v Speaker 3>Do they want to go after the healthiest or do

0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:10.120
<v Speaker 3>they tend to infect the sick, the young, and the elderly.

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:12.679
<v Speaker 1>Oh, this is a fun question.

0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Mmmmm. I was hoping you'd react that way.

0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, it has parasites in it, so I'm

0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:19.080
<v Speaker 1>immediately excited about it.

0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.040
<v Speaker 2>So glad you're excited about this question. Help me understand

0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Ricky's question. Is he saying that carnivores tend to eat

0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the sick and the weak and the elderly because those

0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:30.800
<v Speaker 2>are the ones they can catch. But if they have

0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.080
<v Speaker 2>their druthers, they would rather eat a big, meaty specimen

0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 2>in its prime because it's more food, or because it's

0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:38.600
<v Speaker 2>healthier and therefore were going to be better food. Is

0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:39.200
<v Speaker 2>that the idea?

0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:42.880
<v Speaker 1>I think that is the idea. I can understand the

0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.239
<v Speaker 1>motivation here that a carnivore probably would like to have

0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.280
<v Speaker 1>the largest packet of food possible, and an animal that's

0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:52.359
<v Speaker 1>easy to catch could be an animal that's sick, so

0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:54.760
<v Speaker 1>the quality of the meat could be lower. But I

0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:57.840
<v Speaker 1>think in general animals are quite happy to go for

0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.000
<v Speaker 1>the sick, the elderly, the babies like whatever they're able

0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.199
<v Speaker 1>to catch, because you know, taking down an elephant in

0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:06.439
<v Speaker 1>his prime is dangerous for for example, a lion that

0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:08.280
<v Speaker 1>could get stopped to them. And so for a lot

0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:11.640
<v Speaker 1>of reasons, I think animals tend to go for whatever

0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:14.520
<v Speaker 1>prey they can catch. And this is something that parasites

0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:17.800
<v Speaker 1>actually take advantage of. So, for example, there is a

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:22.760
<v Speaker 1>tapeworm parasite called Aconococcus granulosis and it infects moose and

0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.199
<v Speaker 1>it lives in the moose lungs and it replicates and

0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.639
<v Speaker 1>produces this giant, fluid filled sack. It's kind of like

0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:32.399
<v Speaker 1>a tumor, and inside the sack there's all these baby parasites.

0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.119
<v Speaker 1>But having a huge sack in your lungs makes it

0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:37.800
<v Speaker 1>harder to run away from wolves, and so these animals

0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:40.960
<v Speaker 1>get debilitated, they are sick, it's hard for them to

0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.200
<v Speaker 1>get away from wolves, and so wolves end up catching

0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.200
<v Speaker 1>these moose and then they end up eating the parasites

0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:48.200
<v Speaker 1>while they're eating the moose and they get infected.

0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:50.679
<v Speaker 2>Is that good for the parasites or not good for

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:51.280
<v Speaker 2>the parasites.

0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:54.440
<v Speaker 1>That is great for the parasites. So these tapeworms need

0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 1>to get from the moose to the wolves to complete

0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:01.480
<v Speaker 1>their life cycle. Wow, yeah, it's incredible. When they're in

0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:04.560
<v Speaker 1>the wolves, they often don't seem to cause that much damage.

0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:07.359
<v Speaker 1>And frequently when you get these parasites that have to

0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:10.280
<v Speaker 1>go from a prey to a predator and they get

0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:13.720
<v Speaker 1>transmitted by the predator eating the prey, the predators when

0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:17.920
<v Speaker 1>they harbor the parasites don't tend to be that debilitated.

0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:20.120
<v Speaker 1>It seems like the parasites tend to live. For example,

0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:23.119
<v Speaker 1>in their gut they produce eggs, and when you're in

0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:25.360
<v Speaker 1>what's called the definitive host, which is where you find

0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:28.159
<v Speaker 1>a mate, you produce eggs that pass like with the

0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:30.760
<v Speaker 1>host feces out into the environment again. And so if

0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:33.400
<v Speaker 1>that predator is eating a lot, pooping a lot, going

0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:36.360
<v Speaker 1>all over the place, then your eggs are transmitted everywhere,

0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:40.040
<v Speaker 1>and so they tend to not damage this particular host

0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:41.920
<v Speaker 1>in the life cycle. But then when you get into

0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.080
<v Speaker 1>a host that needs to get eaten by the predator,

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.640
<v Speaker 1>you do often see those kinds of hosts getting debilitated

0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:51.520
<v Speaker 1>or messed up in some way by the parasites because

0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:52.960
<v Speaker 1>that facilitates transmission.

0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:55.439
<v Speaker 2>So let's see if I understand these things end up

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:57.560
<v Speaker 2>in a moose, and they want the moose to get

0:24:57.560 --> 0:25:00.359
<v Speaker 2>caught by wolves, so they end up in the low lungs,

0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:04.640
<v Speaker 2>slowing the moose down. Wait, hold on, nerdy question. Plural

0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:11.040
<v Speaker 2>of moose is mease? I don't know, mices, moses, moses, mooses,

0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:13.879
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure. So they slow the moose down and

0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:16.080
<v Speaker 2>then the wolf eats them gets the parasite, which is

0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:19.639
<v Speaker 2>what the parasite wants. But somehow the parasite manages to

0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:22.040
<v Speaker 2>not slow down the wolf because it wants the wolf

0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:24.640
<v Speaker 2>to be healthy. How does it manage to end up

0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.199
<v Speaker 2>in the moose lungs the mease lungs, but not in

0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:30.679
<v Speaker 2>the wolf lungs? Does it know when it is in

0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:33.280
<v Speaker 2>wolf or moose? It does taste the flesh and like

0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:35.240
<v Speaker 2>this tastes wolfy well, so when.

0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:37.480
<v Speaker 1>It's in the moose, it makes the fluid filled sex.

0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:40.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how it knows that it's in the moose,

0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:42.120
<v Speaker 1>but there might be some sort of cues that tell

0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:43.080
<v Speaker 1>it what host it's in.

0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:45.320
<v Speaker 2>I feel like if I was injected in a random animal,

0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:47.320
<v Speaker 2>I could tell the difference between a moose and a wolf.

0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 2>But maybe not.

0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:51.040
<v Speaker 1>I really doubt it. I mean, maybe it takes longer

0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:55.400
<v Speaker 1>to pass through an herbivores digestive system than a carnivores,

0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:57.440
<v Speaker 1>so maybe you could track how long it took before

0:25:57.480 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 1>you were pooped out. How would you tell the difference, Daniel.

0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:02.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean they taste different, right, like ones a predator

0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>ones an herbivore. I'm pretty sure if you put like

0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:06.919
<v Speaker 2>a moose steak and a wolf steak in front of me,

0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:08.080
<v Speaker 2>I could taste the difference.

0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:11.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but you're not eating steaks of the different animals

0:26:11.240 --> 0:26:14.000
<v Speaker 1>for comparison, they're blind inside of an animal's gut.

0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:15.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I'm eating it right, Like, how are these

0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:16.640
<v Speaker 2>things surviving?

0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:17.720
<v Speaker 5>Uh?

0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:21.920
<v Speaker 1>They are sort of absorbing nutrients across their skin. They're

0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:23.200
<v Speaker 1>not sampling the steak.

0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I understand they're not going to be like

0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:28.679
<v Speaker 2>having a baked potato and a one sauce or whatever.

0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:32.919
<v Speaker 2>But they are interacting with They're eating nutrients from this animal,

0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:35.719
<v Speaker 2>so that information is there. I don't know parasites are

0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:38.920
<v Speaker 2>sophisticated enough to tell the difference, but it's possible in.

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:40.800
<v Speaker 1>Principle, right, Yeah, Yeah, And I think there are some

0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:43.520
<v Speaker 1>cues that parasites can use to figure out what host

0:26:43.520 --> 0:26:45.639
<v Speaker 1>they're in. But also, you know, just because of the

0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:48.040
<v Speaker 1>way things often happen in nature, there's like a cycle

0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:50.080
<v Speaker 1>to what host you can expect you're gonna find yourself

0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:52.240
<v Speaker 1>in next. Like, if you are in a moose's lung,

0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:54.520
<v Speaker 1>you're probably not going to end up in the moose's

0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.639
<v Speaker 1>lungs again, because moose don't tend to eat each other's lungs.

0:26:57.960 --> 0:26:59.840
<v Speaker 1>But you are pretty likely to end up in a

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:02.000
<v Speaker 1>wolf gut, for example.

0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:03.880
<v Speaker 2>So it could just be first host, second host.

0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:06.520
<v Speaker 1>It might not even know, yeah, right, just working through

0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:09.040
<v Speaker 1>its life cycle, and it doesn't form those fluid filled

0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:12.960
<v Speaker 1>sacs in wolves. It's just they find mates, they make eggs,

0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:15.080
<v Speaker 1>and the eggs pass into the environment, and then the

0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:17.840
<v Speaker 1>moose accidentally eats the eggs and that's how they get infected.

0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Man, it's good to be a wolf. But I think

0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:23.680
<v Speaker 2>that Ricky's question is essentially about choosing the host, right,

0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:27.040
<v Speaker 2>So in this case, they debilitate the host. But do

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:28.920
<v Speaker 2>they want to start from a healthy moose or do

0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:31.119
<v Speaker 2>they not care? Are they happy to get into a

0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:33.320
<v Speaker 2>moose that's about to get gobbled by a wolf anyway?

0:27:33.400 --> 0:27:35.679
<v Speaker 2>Does it matter whether the moose is healthy or not?

0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:39.440
<v Speaker 1>But I think Ricky's question is do parasites try to

0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:41.120
<v Speaker 1>choose the host that they end up in.

0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:44.119
<v Speaker 2>I think Ricky's question is do they care about the

0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:47.000
<v Speaker 2>health of the host the same way that carnivores are

0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:50.600
<v Speaker 2>choosing the sick and the feeble and easy to catch.

0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Do parasites care about the health of the host that

0:27:52.960 --> 0:27:53.560
<v Speaker 2>they're infecting.

0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:56.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't have a lot of choice, and so so

0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:58.919
<v Speaker 1>for a kind of caucus granulosis, I don't think it

0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:00.800
<v Speaker 1>has a preference for the host that it's in, as

0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:02.639
<v Speaker 1>long as it can debilitate that host and get it

0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:06.159
<v Speaker 1>eaten by wolves. You maybe don't want to infect a

0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:08.840
<v Speaker 1>host that is like super sick and is about to

0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:12.399
<v Speaker 1>die tomorrow, because after a parasite infects a host, it

0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:15.240
<v Speaker 1>takes days to weeks before it's mature enough that it

0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:18.359
<v Speaker 1>could survive jumping to the next host, and so they

0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:21.359
<v Speaker 1>probably don't want the host to die immediately. But in general,

0:28:21.480 --> 0:28:25.560
<v Speaker 1>most parasites don't have a lot of choice because parasites

0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:28.760
<v Speaker 1>aren't very mobile. You might think back to are we

0:28:28.800 --> 0:28:31.920
<v Speaker 1>called it dirt worms, but these are the geo helmets,

0:28:31.920 --> 0:28:34.280
<v Speaker 1>the nematodes that live in the soil. And when we

0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:36.199
<v Speaker 1>were talking about that parasite. We were talking about how

0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:39.680
<v Speaker 1>the hookworms need to burrow through the feet, burrow through

0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:42.560
<v Speaker 1>the skin to get into their hosts. They can't be

0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:44.960
<v Speaker 1>very choosy. They like move away from the feces and

0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:47.000
<v Speaker 1>then they just have to wait and hope something steps

0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:49.880
<v Speaker 1>on them. And so if like, these feet are stinky,

0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:51.840
<v Speaker 1>I'd rather not infect this person. Like, they don't have

0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:53.000
<v Speaker 1>a choice. They take what they.

0:28:52.880 --> 0:28:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Can, not having a choice and not having a preference

0:28:57.160 --> 0:28:59.360
<v Speaker 2>or different things. Right the way we were talking about

0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:02.280
<v Speaker 2>appreciation nature, it might be that they don't have a

0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:04.280
<v Speaker 2>choice and end up in whatever moose. But there are

0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:07.520
<v Speaker 2>some moose that they're like, mmm, this is a primo moose. Yeah,

0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:09.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm really loving this one. Other ones are like, man,

0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:10.640
<v Speaker 2>this moose kind of sucks.

0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:13.640
<v Speaker 1>Like and there's some moose that probably have better immune

0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:15.640
<v Speaker 1>systems than others. And so if you're going to try

0:29:15.680 --> 0:29:17.960
<v Speaker 1>to infect a moose, you'd rather have the moose that's

0:29:17.960 --> 0:29:21.080
<v Speaker 1>immune system isn't going to slow your growth. They don't

0:29:21.120 --> 0:29:23.480
<v Speaker 1>really get like a choice, you know, they don't get

0:29:23.520 --> 0:29:25.840
<v Speaker 1>like a platter with five different moose and they get

0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:27.880
<v Speaker 1>to pick which moose looks the most delicious. You know,

0:29:27.920 --> 0:29:29.480
<v Speaker 1>like when you go to the seafood store and you're like,

0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I want that lobster. They don't get to pick.

0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:34.520
<v Speaker 2>But if we invited it on the podcast, it might

0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:35.480
<v Speaker 2>still have an opinion.

0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Sure, yeah, I mean, you know, maybe we all have opinions.

0:29:39.800 --> 0:29:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Do but we don't have that. Instead, we have the

0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:46.480
<v Speaker 2>president of the hell Menothological Society of Washington speaking for

0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:47.360
<v Speaker 2>all parasites.

0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:49.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I don't know that I get to speak on

0:29:49.120 --> 0:29:50.840
<v Speaker 1>behalf of the parasite.

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:52.160
<v Speaker 2>But you are, you're telling us what they prefer.

0:29:52.880 --> 0:29:55.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm telling you they might have preferences, which is hedging

0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:57.200
<v Speaker 1>my best even more. But and then when we were

0:29:57.200 --> 0:29:59.760
<v Speaker 1>talking about the dirt worms, we also talked about whipworms

0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 1>and and they get into hosts when their eggs are

0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:06.360
<v Speaker 1>accidentally consumed, and there too, they don't have a choice,

0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 1>like they just get eaten by whoever they get eaten by,

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:09.360
<v Speaker 1>and then they got to make the best out of

0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:12.920
<v Speaker 1>the situation that they're in. There are trematods, So these

0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:16.560
<v Speaker 1>are if you've heard of schistosomiasis or liver flukes, there's

0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:19.920
<v Speaker 1>some trematode diseases that are bad in like Asia and Africa.

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:22.240
<v Speaker 1>We don't have too many to worry about here. Swimmers itch.

0:30:22.520 --> 0:30:23.520
<v Speaker 1>Have you ever heard of swimmers?

0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:23.720
<v Speaker 5>Itch?

0:30:24.200 --> 0:30:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Sounds uncomfortable.

0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:28.200
<v Speaker 1>It is uncomfortable. So the idea with trematods is that

0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.960
<v Speaker 1>they typically start in snails. They often castrate the snail

0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:35.080
<v Speaker 1>and they reproduce asexually, so they make tons and tons

0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:38.960
<v Speaker 1>and tons of these free swimming infectious stages that leave

0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:40.960
<v Speaker 1>the snail and they go off in search of something else.

0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Swimmers itch is when you get these free swimming stages

0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:47.400
<v Speaker 1>that are going off in search of a bird to

0:30:47.560 --> 0:30:52.480
<v Speaker 1>infect snacks, but they accidentally hit you and they've taken

0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:54.360
<v Speaker 1>what they can get. Maybe they can't tell the difference,

0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:56.400
<v Speaker 1>but they burrow into you and then your immune system

0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 1>kills them almost immediately. But then you get this horrible

0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 1>itch afterwards because you have an immune reaction to it

0:31:02.000 --> 0:31:02.640
<v Speaker 1>for some reason.

0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Because it's called swimmers ith, I'm imagining this itch is

0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:06.480
<v Speaker 2>in a very uncomfortable place.

0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:09.520
<v Speaker 1>Oh geez, Daniel, you just keep bringing the conversation back there.

0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:12.440
<v Speaker 1>But it could be there. But my colleagues and I

0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:14.680
<v Speaker 1>usually get it on like our calves because we're in

0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:18.720
<v Speaker 1>salt marshes and it's yeah, don't worry don't worry. That's

0:31:18.840 --> 0:31:21.800
<v Speaker 1>free swimming stage of the parasite. Depending on the species

0:31:21.840 --> 0:31:24.240
<v Speaker 1>that you're looking at, they often have strategies to try

0:31:24.240 --> 0:31:27.120
<v Speaker 1>to get closer to where their hosts usually hang out.

0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:30.280
<v Speaker 1>So if they're leaving a snail and hoping to infect

0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:33.160
<v Speaker 1>a fish, some of them will respond by swimming towards

0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:35.520
<v Speaker 1>whatever light source you give them, so they're trying to

0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 1>swim up to the water surface where they're more likely

0:31:37.680 --> 0:31:40.479
<v Speaker 1>to encounter certain kinds of fish. But once they encounter

0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.240
<v Speaker 1>a fish, they'll take what they can get. They're not

0:31:43.360 --> 0:31:46.840
<v Speaker 1>choosy because literally two thousand of these free swimming stages

0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:49.680
<v Speaker 1>of trematade called you Up work as California Asis. It's

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:52.200
<v Speaker 1>the one that I studied for my PhD. Two thousand

0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:55.560
<v Speaker 1>of them leave the snail every day like that's how

0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 1>many need to be made in the hopes that some

0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:00.320
<v Speaker 1>of them encounter a fish. Because there's a low probability game,

0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:03.880
<v Speaker 1>so in general, there's not a lot of evidence of choosiness.

0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:07.040
<v Speaker 1>They're not very mobile. They don't have a chance to

0:32:07.040 --> 0:32:10.920
<v Speaker 1>be choosy. But parasitoid wasps can be a little bit

0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:14.920
<v Speaker 1>more mobile. So parasitoid wasps lay their eggs in some insect,

0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:17.800
<v Speaker 1>and then their eggs consume the inside of the insect

0:32:17.800 --> 0:32:19.680
<v Speaker 1>and then burst out of it when they're done. This

0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:23.479
<v Speaker 1>is yeah, it's super creepy. There's some evidence that some

0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:27.960
<v Speaker 1>parasitoid wasps can tell if a for example, caterpillar has

0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:31.640
<v Speaker 1>already had eggs laid in it, and then they'll go

0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:33.400
<v Speaker 1>off in search of another one because they don't want

0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:36.600
<v Speaker 1>their offspring to have to compete with like older wasp

0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 1>babies that are already starting to eat the caterpillar from

0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:42.360
<v Speaker 1>the inside. So there's some choosiness in the more mobile parasites,

0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:44.400
<v Speaker 1>but in general they don't get a chance to.

0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:46.760
<v Speaker 2>Do much choosing all right, So to some of the

0:32:46.800 --> 0:32:50.880
<v Speaker 2>answer for Ricky, I think that there are some outcomes

0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:53.320
<v Speaker 2>for the parasite that are better, Like if they get

0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 2>into a healthy host, it lasts long enough for them

0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:59.080
<v Speaker 2>to do their whole life cycle dance. But they don't

0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:03.160
<v Speaker 2>get choices. Often, unlike carnivores, they can't pick who they're

0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:05.360
<v Speaker 2>going to chase. After though if we invited them on

0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the podcast, they might still have thoughts about where they

0:33:07.960 --> 0:33:10.040
<v Speaker 2>ended up. We don't know what is it like to

0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:11.640
<v Speaker 2>be a parasite nobody knows.

0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:14.880
<v Speaker 1>Maybe you should be president of the Helmetological Society of

0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:18.240
<v Speaker 1>Washington because you're doing a great job speaking for the parasites.

0:33:18.760 --> 0:33:21.120
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no, I want to be a philosopher

0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:24.160
<v Speaker 2>of parasitology. I don't think that exists. We just invented

0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 2>a new academic field today.

0:33:25.600 --> 0:33:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness. There's probably no funding for it, unfortunately,

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:31.040
<v Speaker 1>but I hope we're wrong about that. But well, let's

0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:33.440
<v Speaker 1>see if Ricky would like to fund a new position

0:33:33.640 --> 0:33:35.280
<v Speaker 1>for the philosopher of parasitology.

0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:38.960
<v Speaker 2>And if I'm wrong and you are a philosopher of parasitology,

0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:41.280
<v Speaker 2>we want to hear from you right to us. Please

0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:43.880
<v Speaker 2>two questions at Damilankelly dot org.

0:33:45.080 --> 0:33:46.800
<v Speaker 1>And while we're waiting for that email to come in,

0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:48.800
<v Speaker 1>let's see what Ricky thought of the answer.

0:33:49.640 --> 0:33:52.880
<v Speaker 6>First of all, it is obviously my fault because I

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:55.600
<v Speaker 6>knew what question I asked, and then I was like, oh,

0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:58.480
<v Speaker 6>I'll listen to your answer while I'm having lunch. But

0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:02.160
<v Speaker 6>that aside, which was to on me, Thank you Daniel

0:34:02.240 --> 0:34:06.400
<v Speaker 6>for bringing it back. My real question was about preference.

0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:12.120
<v Speaker 6>If there were the ability to infect an quote unquote

0:34:12.200 --> 0:34:15.520
<v Speaker 6>ideal host, what would that look like, and I think

0:34:15.560 --> 0:34:18.719
<v Speaker 6>you really got there, especially with the mobile ones with

0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:22.440
<v Speaker 6>the parasitoid wasps, which are a big thing for me

0:34:22.480 --> 0:34:26.160
<v Speaker 6>as a farmer. And also I have two useless philosophy

0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:30.560
<v Speaker 6>degrees and I'm considering pursuing this third one. Thanks and

0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:34.840
<v Speaker 6>thank you Kelly for going into such incredible nerdy detail

0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:35.160
<v Speaker 6>for me.

0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:54.960
<v Speaker 1>All Right, for our next question, we have a question

0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:56.120
<v Speaker 1>from Wendy.

0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:01.680
<v Speaker 5>Hey, I'm Wendy. Came from my I have a question

0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:05.160
<v Speaker 5>about the speed of light. The speed of light is

0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:09.000
<v Speaker 5>something really fundamental, I think, because both light and gravity

0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:13.640
<v Speaker 5>waves travel at that speed. Does every force carrier travel

0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:15.880
<v Speaker 5>at the speed of light? And if that's the case,

0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:20.080
<v Speaker 5>it's not the speed of light. Isn't it the speed

0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:20.840
<v Speaker 5>of the universe?

0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:25.320
<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much, And Wendy asks a really deep, really

0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:29.479
<v Speaker 2>basic question about the nature of the universe and motion

0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:31.319
<v Speaker 2>at the speed of light and why do we call

0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:34.080
<v Speaker 2>it the speed of light? Anyway? All sorts of stuff

0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:37.320
<v Speaker 2>connected here that I hear a lot of people puzzling about,

0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:39.719
<v Speaker 2>and that I still puzzle about because the nature of

0:35:39.719 --> 0:35:42.880
<v Speaker 2>the universe and transmission of information is not something we

0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:46.120
<v Speaker 2>have fully understood, even if we do have a great

0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:48.279
<v Speaker 2>mathematical framework for describing it.

0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:51.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's start from the beginning. Does every force carrier

0:35:51.280 --> 0:35:54.120
<v Speaker 1>travel at the speed of light? I'm gonna guess the

0:35:54.239 --> 0:36:00.319
<v Speaker 1>answer is it depends. No, no, no, we.

0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.520
<v Speaker 2>Are watering down the crispness of physics today. Right, you

0:36:03.560 --> 0:36:06.040
<v Speaker 2>are right. The answer is it depends. But it depends

0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:09.400
<v Speaker 2>very precisely on something, which is whether the force carrier

0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 2>has mass. You see, things that have mass cannot travel

0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:16.520
<v Speaker 2>at the speed of light. Never ever, Ever, they can

0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:18.759
<v Speaker 2>approach the speed of light. You can keep pushing them

0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:20.560
<v Speaker 2>and pushing them and pushing them. They will ask them talk.

0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:22.640
<v Speaker 2>They get closer and closer to the speed of light

0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:25.720
<v Speaker 2>relative to something. But things that have mass cannot travel

0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:30.520
<v Speaker 2>at the speed of light. It would take infinite energy. Sorry, sorry,

0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:34.120
<v Speaker 2>both exactly. Keep pushing though, keep pushing. And for those

0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:36.840
<v Speaker 2>of you out there thinking, don't things traveling near the

0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:40.080
<v Speaker 2>speed of light also gain mass and become infinitely massive?

0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:42.680
<v Speaker 2>The answer to that is no, they just have infinite energy.

0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:45.240
<v Speaker 2>And we have a whole episode talking about whether potatoes

0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:47.680
<v Speaker 2>turned into black holes need the speed of light. Check

0:36:47.760 --> 0:36:50.880
<v Speaker 2>that out if you're interested in the question of relativistic mass.

0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:53.680
<v Speaker 2>But the issue here is whether something has mass. So

0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 2>things that do have mass can never travel at the

0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:59.799
<v Speaker 2>speed of light relative to anybody, whereas things that don't

0:36:59.800 --> 0:37:02.319
<v Speaker 2>have mass are always moving at the speed of light

0:37:02.480 --> 0:37:06.560
<v Speaker 2>for everybody. So when he asks, does every force carrier

0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 2>travel at the speed of light? It depends on whether

0:37:09.160 --> 0:37:11.560
<v Speaker 2>they have mass. So let's quiz Kelly, what are they

0:37:12.080 --> 0:37:12.920
<v Speaker 2>some force carriers?

0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:15.640
<v Speaker 1>The electromagnetic field?

0:37:16.000 --> 0:37:19.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and what is the particle associated with that electron? No,

0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:19.840
<v Speaker 2>the photons?

0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:21.239
<v Speaker 1>Ohton, Yeah, that's what I said.

0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, So the photon is the particle that transmits the

0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:29.920
<v Speaker 2>electromagnetic force. Like when two electrons are repelling each other,

0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:33.920
<v Speaker 2>what's happening there? Will electrons cause ripples in the electromagnetic

0:37:34.000 --> 0:37:36.400
<v Speaker 2>field because they have a charge, And check out our

0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:38.920
<v Speaker 2>episode on weak Harper charge to get like a deeper

0:37:39.000 --> 0:37:41.920
<v Speaker 2>understanding of what charge is. But essentially, it's a coupling

0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:45.080
<v Speaker 2>between two fields. And so two electrons nearing each other

0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:48.080
<v Speaker 2>are both causing these ripples and the electromagnetic field and

0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:50.680
<v Speaker 2>those ripples push on each other. And so you can

0:37:50.719 --> 0:37:52.640
<v Speaker 2>think about it from the field perspective, or you can

0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:55.120
<v Speaker 2>think about it from the particle perspective and say, those

0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:58.440
<v Speaker 2>ripples in the electromagnetic field, those are photons, and so

0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:00.920
<v Speaker 2>what's happening when the elect trans come near each other

0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:03.799
<v Speaker 2>as they are exchanging photons. That's what's meant by a

0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:08.440
<v Speaker 2>force carrier, the particles associated with the field that transmits

0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:12.560
<v Speaker 2>that force. So for the electromagnetic force, it's the electromagnetic

0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:15.759
<v Speaker 2>field and the force carrier is the photon and photons

0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:18.799
<v Speaker 2>they are massless, and so they do move at the

0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:23.000
<v Speaker 2>speed of light. Now, other forces have different fields and

0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:25.880
<v Speaker 2>different force carriers. So for example, the strong force.

0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:27.600
<v Speaker 1>Is that the one with the colors, Yes.

0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, the strong force. The charge there is not a

0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:33.279
<v Speaker 2>plus or minus. It's a red, green or blue, which

0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:36.520
<v Speaker 2>is really weird. And there's a bunch of gluon fields.

0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:39.960
<v Speaker 2>There's eight gluon fields, and each field carries two colors,

0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:42.600
<v Speaker 2>not just one, so it can be like red, anti

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:46.520
<v Speaker 2>green or something crazy. And these gluons are also massless.

0:38:46.719 --> 0:38:50.239
<v Speaker 2>So gluon fields transmit information at the speed of light

0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:53.880
<v Speaker 2>as well. So that's two force carriers that do travel

0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:57.480
<v Speaker 2>at the speed of light. And gravitational waves also move

0:38:57.560 --> 0:39:00.480
<v Speaker 2>at the speed of light. Now, gravitational waves not technically

0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:04.160
<v Speaker 2>a force carrier. They are ripples. In the gravitational field

0:39:04.200 --> 0:39:07.680
<v Speaker 2>created by the acceleration of masses. But information in gravity

0:39:07.719 --> 0:39:09.879
<v Speaker 2>does travel at the speed of light. And we don't

0:39:09.920 --> 0:39:11.759
<v Speaker 2>know what a force carrier is for gravity because we

0:39:11.760 --> 0:39:13.759
<v Speaker 2>don't have a theory of quantum gravity, so we don't

0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:17.279
<v Speaker 2>know like, are there gravitons, etcetera, et cetera. But gravitational

0:39:17.320 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 2>waves definitely travel at the speed of light. But other

0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:24.240
<v Speaker 2>force carriers do have mass. So, for example, the weak force,

0:39:24.520 --> 0:39:27.240
<v Speaker 2>it's all messed up because of the Higgs boson. Higgs

0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:29.440
<v Speaker 2>comes in and it makes the W and the Z

0:39:29.840 --> 0:39:33.239
<v Speaker 2>have mass, whereas the photon doesn't. Makes a big mess

0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:35.920
<v Speaker 2>of the weak force. So these things are quite massive.

0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:38.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm just gonna go ahead and interject that I'm not

0:39:38.280 --> 0:39:40.840
<v Speaker 1>the one who added fuzziness to physics.

0:39:41.640 --> 0:39:42.240
<v Speaker 2>It was Higgs.

0:39:42.560 --> 0:39:44.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was Higgs. Go ahead, tell me more about this.

0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:47.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So the W and the Z bosons are really

0:39:47.800 --> 0:39:51.080
<v Speaker 2>quite massive. The w's mass is like eighty times the

0:39:51.120 --> 0:39:53.960
<v Speaker 2>mass of a proton and the Z is like ninety times.

0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:56.480
<v Speaker 2>These are super duper massive particles. And it's one reason

0:39:56.880 --> 0:39:59.560
<v Speaker 2>why the weak force is so weak, because it's force

0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:02.760
<v Speaker 2>carriers are so massive. They don't travel at the speed

0:40:02.760 --> 0:40:05.520
<v Speaker 2>of light, and they're very unstable. They decay very quickly

0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:08.640
<v Speaker 2>into other stuff. And so these force carriers that W

0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:11.080
<v Speaker 2>and Z do not travel at the speed of light,

0:40:11.480 --> 0:40:13.560
<v Speaker 2>so it depends on whether they're massless.

0:40:14.080 --> 0:40:16.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so we've answered the first part of the question

0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.520
<v Speaker 1>that no, every force carrier does not travel at the

0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:22.320
<v Speaker 1>speed of light. Okay, So where do we go from there?

0:40:22.680 --> 0:40:24.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so she's asking, like, why do we call

0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:27.680
<v Speaker 2>it the speed of light if other things travel at

0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:30.879
<v Speaker 2>that same speed. It's not special to photons, And she's right,

0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:34.440
<v Speaker 2>photons are the first thing we saw that was massless

0:40:34.440 --> 0:40:37.279
<v Speaker 2>that traveled at the maximum speed of the universe, and

0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:40.440
<v Speaker 2>so it really is the maximum speed of information in

0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:43.480
<v Speaker 2>the universe, and all massless things can travel at this

0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:46.600
<v Speaker 2>massless speed and have to travel at this massless speed.

0:40:47.000 --> 0:40:49.400
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, it's the speed of information or the speed

0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:52.759
<v Speaker 2>of causality, or the speed of the universe. You could

0:40:52.760 --> 0:40:56.359
<v Speaker 2>also call it the speed of gluons. Right. We call

0:40:56.400 --> 0:40:58.120
<v Speaker 2>it the speed of light because light was the first

0:40:58.120 --> 0:41:00.960
<v Speaker 2>thing we discovered that mood at this so it's just

0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:04.840
<v Speaker 2>sort of historical, but it's also really fascinating, like philosophically,

0:41:05.280 --> 0:41:09.040
<v Speaker 2>why the universe has a maximum speed, and why it's

0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:13.120
<v Speaker 2>this number and why it means that all observers have

0:41:13.200 --> 0:41:15.600
<v Speaker 2>to see massless things moving at this speed.

0:41:15.880 --> 0:41:17.920
<v Speaker 1>So, first of all, I think I prefer speed of

0:41:17.960 --> 0:41:21.080
<v Speaker 1>the universe. I don't know, that sounds more epic. But why, yeah,

0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:23.040
<v Speaker 1>why is this the speed of the universe?

0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:26.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, nobody knows currently, we don't even know if there

0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:30.719
<v Speaker 2>is an explanation. One possibility is that it comes out

0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:33.480
<v Speaker 2>of the way space is built. You know, space could

0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:35.960
<v Speaker 2>be quantized. It could be a bunch of pixels and

0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.000
<v Speaker 2>these pixels could interact with each other through quantum entanglement,

0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:41.919
<v Speaker 2>and that's how space is woven together from a bunch

0:41:41.920 --> 0:41:44.880
<v Speaker 2>of like little space pixels, and that the speed of

0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:48.160
<v Speaker 2>information is connected to that entanglement, and so it could

0:41:48.200 --> 0:41:51.120
<v Speaker 2>come out of some deeper understanding of space. That's just

0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:53.640
<v Speaker 2>a speculation currently, we don't know. Currently, it's just a

0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:56.080
<v Speaker 2>number that we measure, and it could be anything. It

0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:58.640
<v Speaker 2>could be twice as big, it could be half as big.

0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:02.120
<v Speaker 2>And it's important number because it really determines what it's

0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:05.440
<v Speaker 2>like to be in the universe. Like, on one hand,

0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:07.759
<v Speaker 2>having the speed of light be as small as it

0:42:07.800 --> 0:42:10.040
<v Speaker 2>is relative to the size of the universe means we

0:42:10.080 --> 0:42:12.799
<v Speaker 2>can't see that far right, Like the whole regions of

0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.680
<v Speaker 2>the universe we can't even see because in the fourteen

0:42:15.680 --> 0:42:17.799
<v Speaker 2>billion years of its history, life hasn't had time to

0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:19.960
<v Speaker 2>get here. Imagine if the speed of light was a

0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:23.560
<v Speaker 2>thousand or a billion times higher, we could see so

0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:27.040
<v Speaker 2>much further into the universe, and the information in our

0:42:27.040 --> 0:42:30.400
<v Speaker 2>neighborhood wouldn't be as out of date. That would be amazing.

0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:34.439
<v Speaker 2>The other hand, there'd be downsides also, like the fact

0:42:34.480 --> 0:42:36.920
<v Speaker 2>that the speed of light is not infinite protects us

0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:41.200
<v Speaker 2>from alien death rays. For example, you know, if an

0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:45.680
<v Speaker 2>alien shoots a death ray at Earth from Andromeda, that's

0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:47.600
<v Speaker 2>a few million light years away. We got a few

0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:50.799
<v Speaker 2>million years before it comes here, So that's cool. If

0:42:50.840 --> 0:42:54.040
<v Speaker 2>the speed of light was like instantaneous or much much higher,

0:42:54.280 --> 0:42:56.239
<v Speaker 2>then we would be vulnerable to alien death rays in

0:42:56.280 --> 0:42:58.759
<v Speaker 2>a much bigger volume. So it isolates us in a

0:42:58.760 --> 0:42:59.439
<v Speaker 2>protective way.

0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:01.280
<v Speaker 1>No time to get our affairs together.

0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:06.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, exactly. Talk to your parasites, get everything in order.

0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:08.680
<v Speaker 2>Are your parasites in your will? Have you figured out

0:43:08.640 --> 0:43:09.400
<v Speaker 2>all that out? Kelly?

0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.640
<v Speaker 1>You know I don't have a will. Yet. Oh no,

0:43:12.719 --> 0:43:15.439
<v Speaker 1>I know, that's like literally on my to do list

0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:18.239
<v Speaker 1>for this week, but I'll make sure someone good gets

0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:18.960
<v Speaker 1>my parasites.

0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it's really fascinating. We don't know the answer.

0:43:23.000 --> 0:43:26.200
<v Speaker 2>It's possible that the value of the speed of light

0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.440
<v Speaker 2>is determined by some deeper physics we don't know yet,

0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:32.160
<v Speaker 2>or it's possible it's just like a random number and

0:43:32.200 --> 0:43:35.719
<v Speaker 2>when the universe cools and settles, it turns out to

0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:38.319
<v Speaker 2>be this number. And in the multiverse, different universes have

0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:41.120
<v Speaker 2>different values of this number. We don't know the answer

0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:43.880
<v Speaker 2>to that, but it is fascinating and it's something I

0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:46.520
<v Speaker 2>hear a lot of people sort of misunderstanding when they're

0:43:46.520 --> 0:43:49.360
<v Speaker 2>writing to me and asking questions about it. You know,

0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:51.920
<v Speaker 2>for example, there is this constant question like what is

0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:54.560
<v Speaker 2>it like to be a photon? You know, do photons

0:43:54.600 --> 0:43:57.480
<v Speaker 2>experience time in the universe that we've talked about that

0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:00.400
<v Speaker 2>I think reveals a sort of misunderstanding about the nature

0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:03.120
<v Speaker 2>of these massless objects and their velocity.

0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:06.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's see if you've cleared this all up for Wendy.

0:44:07.280 --> 0:44:10.800
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for your lucid and straightforward answer

0:44:11.239 --> 0:44:15.920
<v Speaker 5>about the speed of force carriers. I also appreciated your

0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:19.239
<v Speaker 5>elaboration on the speed of the universe why it is

0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:22.600
<v Speaker 5>what it is, which is also a question I've pondered.

0:44:23.719 --> 0:44:26.320
<v Speaker 5>Of course, I'm left wondering about why the weak force

0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:31.520
<v Speaker 5>is so different from the strong force gravity and electromagnetism.

0:44:32.000 --> 0:44:34.880
<v Speaker 5>Why it froze out of the electroweak force as the

0:44:34.960 --> 0:44:40.360
<v Speaker 5>universe cooled. But that's another question altogether. Thanks again.

0:44:41.000 --> 0:44:43.239
<v Speaker 1>All right, well, thank you so much to everyone who

0:44:43.320 --> 0:44:46.960
<v Speaker 1>submitted questions, and we are looking forward to hearing your questions.

0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:50.520
<v Speaker 1>You can write us at questions at Danielankelly dot org

0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.600
<v Speaker 1>and we will definitely write you back, either with an

0:44:53.600 --> 0:44:55.759
<v Speaker 1>answer if we know it right away, or if you've

0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:58.160
<v Speaker 1>kind of stumped us, or it's a question we get often,

0:44:58.360 --> 0:44:59.520
<v Speaker 1>we'll answer it on the show.

0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Right as family friendly questions, Kelly doesn't have to cringe

0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:04.920
<v Speaker 2>when I'm responding to them.

0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:07.360
<v Speaker 1>You know, Daniel, I feel like you took family friendly

0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:10.680
<v Speaker 1>topics and sort of morph them into something not family friendly,

0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:12.200
<v Speaker 1>so I don't think our listeners can win.

0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:15.759
<v Speaker 2>I have a special gift to that.

0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:19.560
<v Speaker 1>You would have thought that the co host with the

0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:21.000
<v Speaker 1>last name wider Smith would.

0:45:20.760 --> 0:45:24.640
<v Speaker 2>Have that gift. There you go, that was you, and

0:45:24.680 --> 0:45:25.359
<v Speaker 2>that was all you.

0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:28.840
<v Speaker 1>We're a good team, all right, everybody, Until next time.

0:45:28.920 --> 0:45:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening.

0:45:36.880 --> 0:45:40.319
<v Speaker 1>Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeart Reading.

0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:43.160
<v Speaker 1>We would love to hear from you, We really would.

0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:46.080
<v Speaker 2>We want to know what questions you have about this

0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Extraordinary Universe.

0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:51.040
<v Speaker 1>I want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

0:45:51.040 --> 0:45:54.040
<v Speaker 1>for future shows. If you contact us, we will get

0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:54.520
<v Speaker 1>back to you.

0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:58.239
<v Speaker 2>We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

0:45:58.280 --> 0:46:01.120
<v Speaker 2>at questions at Daniel and Kelly dot org.

0:46:01.320 --> 0:46:03.440
<v Speaker 1>You can find us on social media. We have accounts

0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:07.520
<v Speaker 1>on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on all of those platforms.

0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:10.480
<v Speaker 1>You can find us at D and K universe.

0:46:10.600 --> 0:46:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Op chaye right to us.