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Speaker 1: On the Dog Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the bec Del Cast. Caitlin, Yes, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: I've got a problem and it needs solving. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: only have ninety minutes to record a podcast. Okay, see

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Speaker 1: mine was going to be. Whoever hears this, I suppose

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Speaker 1: you'll think it's a confession. I recorded this podcast me,

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn Durante. I did it for the money and a woman,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't get the money and I didn't get

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Speaker 1: the woman. Okay, I like that way better. I like

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Speaker 1: that way better. Because what is Walter Nev doing at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of this movie and throughout besides recording a

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast? He literally, yes, I wrote that the

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Speaker 1: same thing. I was like, Wow, what's her name? I

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Speaker 1: wrote down, Um, who's the whatever? The serial person? I'm

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Speaker 1: blowing it. I'm blowing it this morning. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember either. Why we I feel like everyone

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Speaker 1: I can hear her voice, I can hear her cadence.

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Speaker 1: It's iconic, like I oh my god, I was very

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Speaker 1: into it when it came out. What it? What was it?

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Speaker 1: Sarah Kanig, Sarah Cadi, Yes, yes, he's Sarah kaneging out

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of the show. Well, we well, that

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Speaker 1: was one of our best intros. Perfect. See this is

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Speaker 1: and if people are listening right now, this is why

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Speaker 1: we don't record this early in the morning, because this

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Speaker 1: is gonna be that you're gonna feel a sort of

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Speaker 1: waking up as the podcast proceeds. We're not like Walter

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Speaker 1: nep recording in the dead of night with a with

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Speaker 1: an injury the gunshot wound. Yeah, this is It's ten.

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Speaker 1: I am I've been up since seven because I needed

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Speaker 1: to rewatch this movie sa morning. Same. So I think

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Speaker 1: that we're doing a really good job so far. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my

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Speaker 1: name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show where

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Speaker 1: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the

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Speaker 1: Bechdel Tests simply as a jumping off point, an inspiration

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Speaker 1: for us to get a conversation going. Jamie, tell me

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Speaker 1: what the Bechdel test is? Please? No, okay, the Bechtel

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Speaker 1: test has many permutations. That's sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test,

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Speaker 1: originally created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. We require that

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Speaker 1: two pass. You have to have two characters of a

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Speaker 1: marginalized gender with names speaking to each other about something

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Speaker 1: other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue.

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Speaker 1: I think this movie passes, which is funny, um, because

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Speaker 1: I went in thinking there's no way there's even a

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Speaker 1: second woman in the movie. Well, guess what, there is

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Speaker 1: exactly one second. So egg on my face. There's two

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Speaker 1: women in the movie and they talk about checkers. Um.

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Speaker 1: So if that's why you listen to the podcast, I

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Speaker 1: guess you could turn it off down because but stick

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Speaker 1: around because we've got a lot of exciting stuff to

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Speaker 1: talk about, recovering a film noir today from nineteen four

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Speaker 1: called Double Indemnity, And we have an amazing returning guest.

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Speaker 1: Let's get her in the mix. We certainly do. She

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Speaker 1: is a media critic. You remember her from our episode

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Speaker 1: on Point Break. It's Anita Sarcasian. Okay, just so everyone knows,

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Speaker 1: I try to get them to do another surf movie

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Speaker 1: with me, so that I only do surf movies on

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Speaker 1: the back pelcast and they were not going for it.

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn like just looked at me, being like, nobody requests

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Speaker 1: surf movies. We should I don't think that's true, so

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Speaker 1: please right in and let them know that I'm right.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know about this conversation, and I would have

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Speaker 1: made a strong argument for Blue Crush. That made really

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Speaker 1: gave me some body problems. So, yeah, I forgot about

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Speaker 1: Blue Crush. How good you forget about Blue Crush. I've

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Speaker 1: never seen Blue Crash, so I like this would be

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Speaker 1: a great opportunity because I'm like, I want to watch

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Speaker 1: all of them now, so I will. I'll come back.

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Speaker 1: And apparently it was formative for a lot of young

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Speaker 1: queers too. There's a whole I need to need to

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Speaker 1: get in on this. I remember there was such a

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Speaker 1: frothing culture around Blue Crush because all the girls that

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Speaker 1: I would watch it with were like, isn't it amazing

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Speaker 1: that Kate Bosworth has one blue eye and one brown eye?

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Speaker 1: We were just like all lusting after her, like, wow,

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Speaker 1: her bikini is so low cut. Yeah, there's a whole

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Speaker 1: there's a whole thing exactly. But we're talking about double

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Speaker 1: indemnity eight. We're talking about a different kind of um

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Speaker 1: interestingly exploited female character. Today it's fatal Day on the

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Speaker 1: factel cast It's sure, is so Anita? What is your

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Speaker 1: relationship history, etcetera with this movie with film no war

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Speaker 1: in general, Um nothing. I have no history at all.

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Speaker 1: I chose it, or like, I, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: agreed to do it because I've been curious about going

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Speaker 1: back and watching older films, so I was like, why

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Speaker 1: not have an excuse to do it. I sort of

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Speaker 1: regret that choice. So this is gonna be a great episode. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I don't um, I don't know. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: anything about this movie going into it. I loosely knew

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Speaker 1: that it was like kind of quintessential in terms of

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Speaker 1: establishing the film fatale or film noir ish kind of vibes.

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Speaker 1: So I was curious about that. But I don't have

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Speaker 1: a long history of like, you know, it's not like

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Speaker 1: I've watched a bunch of noirs. I kind of get

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Speaker 1: the sense of them. I find current or more modern

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Speaker 1: films that pull noir themes really interesting. But but that

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Speaker 1: makes it like every time I watch a movie that's

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Speaker 1: like this was the thing that changed everything, I always

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Speaker 1: feel a little bit of We will never be able

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Speaker 1: to know what that feels like because I've seen every

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Speaker 1: iteration since then, or I've seen every like derivative. I've

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Speaker 1: seen everything that is like derivative from the original source.

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Speaker 1: And I don't mean that in a disparaging way. It's

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Speaker 1: just it's so hard sometimes to put yourself in the

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Speaker 1: mind of the viewer at the time and the creation

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Speaker 1: process at the time. Right. I'm sure that if I

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Speaker 1: had seen Citizen Kane in whatever nineteen forty one when

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Speaker 1: it came out, I'd be like, Wow, this movie is

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Speaker 1: so cool. Look at how groundbreaking it is, look at

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Speaker 1: how it changed cinema. But I didn't see it in

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Speaker 1: ninety one. I saw it in the mid two thousand's

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Speaker 1: and I hate it. Well, that was your first mistake,

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Speaker 1: not being alive in one. I do want to cover

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Speaker 1: Citizen Cane someday so I can just talk about how

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Speaker 1: it's a turd. But that's edge Lord Caitlin peeking her

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Speaker 1: little head out. But I do think kind of before

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Speaker 1: we get into this a little bit um So, I

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Speaker 1: just watched Liquorice Pizza, which has of extremely racist a

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Speaker 1: couple of moments of like deep racism, right, And I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about I don't have anything really insightful to

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Speaker 1: say about this, but that it can be very hard

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Speaker 1: for modern progressive viewers to go back and watch older films, right,

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Speaker 1: because you do have to kind of in order to

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Speaker 1: do that and to appreciate the craft of the time,

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Speaker 1: we have to acknowledge, sit through, deal with, ignore, like

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that you do when you watch older movies.

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Speaker 1: It's just there, right, and you can't unsee what you know.

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking about what that means in contemporary films,

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Speaker 1: especially contemporary films that are of a time, so like

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Speaker 1: including pieces that are super racist or sexist in a

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Speaker 1: movie that comes out to contextualize the moment that it

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Speaker 1: takes place, Like, I have a lot of thoughts about that,

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Speaker 1: And I think that there's something interesting about like kind

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Speaker 1: of me ping ponging back and forth in right now

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Speaker 1: and what I'm watching and seeing, like cool, I gotta

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Speaker 1: like deal with, you know, you've got to deal with

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Speaker 1: the like all the sexist representations and the like light

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Speaker 1: misogyny that's just like a part of the environment. And

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Speaker 1: then also we still have to you know, like it's

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Speaker 1: still being justified as relevant or a part of the

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Speaker 1: craft or a part of the art or whatever. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: because it's like a period piece, right, yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: not the only you know, I'm not like specifically calling

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Speaker 1: out Pta, but just the you know, like Tarantino and

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Speaker 1: like they all fucking do that, right, right. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes like period pieces are used as an

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Speaker 1: excuse to like bring that back in a way of

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Speaker 1: like isn't this funny, and you're like, it's really not.

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Speaker 1: But I think film fatal is like such an interesting thing,

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Speaker 1: and I totally agree with what you guys are saying

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Speaker 1: of it's so difficult to watch a movie and put

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Speaker 1: yourself in the mindset of an audience member at the time.

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Speaker 1: It's like almost impossible unless you're like really really really

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Speaker 1: trying to. And that's like part of what's hard about

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Speaker 1: this show sometimes. But that's the thing is like what

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Speaker 1: audience is watching it as well. I think it's another

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Speaker 1: used to that absolutely, Jamie, what's your relationship to Double Indemnity?

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Speaker 1: I saw this movie in college. I think that like

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Speaker 1: any person that went through a bad film program, like

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Speaker 1: there was a unit on Noir, I saw a bunch

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Speaker 1: of them. I generally do like I I like Noir,

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Speaker 1: and I really like noir, like parody and like comedy.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm like into the vibe of Noir and the

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Speaker 1: because the like the characters are so clear, and so

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Speaker 1: I enjoy watching Noir. Also, my friend friend of the

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Speaker 1: show guest on our Glie episode, Josh fatum Um just

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Speaker 1: observed Noirvember, which is something he does every year for nobody,

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Speaker 1: but this year I was paying attention and um, so

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Speaker 1: I had Noir in the brain anyways, So I was

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Speaker 1: excited to revisit this movie because I feel like this

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Speaker 1: movie is often kind of presented as like the blueprint

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Speaker 1: for a lot of Nora tropes, and particularly like the

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Speaker 1: fum Fatale character. And it was kind of interesting to

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Speaker 1: come back to because by coincidence, I was working on

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Speaker 1: the The Capy podcast this year and so was going

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Speaker 1: through the history of like American women's rights, and so

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Speaker 1: it's like interesting to have a few things click about,

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Speaker 1: like why why the fum Fatale trope tends to pop

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Speaker 1: at certain moments. It makes total sense that it would

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Speaker 1: pop during World War Two because it's a time where

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Speaker 1: women are taking on men's jobs quote unquote and are

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Speaker 1: presenting a more act to threat to the status quo,

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Speaker 1: and so some fetals like popping in the forties and

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Speaker 1: fifties makes total sense. Any time that there's like a

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Speaker 1: period of time where uh, there's a backlash to a

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Speaker 1: popular feminist movement, you get these characters that are like

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Speaker 1: variations on witches and like evil women luring people with sex.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know, I had I had a and

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Speaker 1: I genuinely like moviewise. I hear like Walter nev is

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Speaker 1: such a dufus, like he got a boner one time

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Speaker 1: and it was ready to just throw his entire life away,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of funny. But I'm excited to talk

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Speaker 1: about this movie. I I genuinely enjoyed watching it. And

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Speaker 1: Barbara Stanwick is such a such an icon, and she's

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Speaker 1: wearing such a such a bizarre wig is very distracting.

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Speaker 1: The bangs on her bangs are out of control. They're

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Speaker 1: like a hard they look like you could like knock

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Speaker 1: on them. They're like a perfect cylinder just resting a

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Speaker 1: top her forehead. I don't understand how you accomplish that. Unbelievable,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I I I generally, I mean, there's misogynist

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Speaker 1: tropes abound in this genre, but I think it's like

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Speaker 1: in context, it's it's pretty interesting and the movies are

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Speaker 1: fun to watch. Yeah, I too saw this movie in

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Speaker 1: college at least a couple of times, and then also

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Speaker 1: in grad school where I did get a master's degree

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Speaker 1: in screen running from Boston University. I hate to mention it,

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Speaker 1: but they made you watch it again. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: because I took like enough like film theory or film

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Speaker 1: history classes that touched on film noir, and this is

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Speaker 1: kind of like one of those like quintessential film noir movies.

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Speaker 1: It's cited as having set the standard for film noir,

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Speaker 1: so you know, it's kind of one of the ones

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Speaker 1: to study if you're developing the curriculum for a very standard,

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Speaker 1: boring film class because they always show the same damn

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Speaker 1: movies over and over again. I've seen it several times

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Speaker 1: in school, and this is like, I feel like the

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Speaker 1: one that they show in school. Yes, which is also

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Speaker 1: why I've seen Citizen Kane eight hundred times. I hate

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Speaker 1: it more and more every time I see it. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: else I'll stop bringing up the Citizen Kane maybe, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I've seen this movie a number of times usually

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Speaker 1: and that probably like maybe I I saw it once

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Speaker 1: just of my own volition before I saw it for

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Speaker 1: a class, because I was like, oh, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: one of those like famous movies that's in all the textbooks.

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Speaker 1: I have to see it so I can, you know,

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Speaker 1: be smart and understand references so you could go to party.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I just watch things so I can comfortably attend

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Speaker 1: a party. Same same, Um, I get it, but I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't hate the movie. I like the snappy dialogue.

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Speaker 1: You know, the aesthetic is fun. Yeah, I like. I

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Speaker 1: generally like film noir. I like neo noir especially, But

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Speaker 1: who framed Roger Rabbit Baby? I mean, come on, the

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Speaker 1: noir golden standard. I think I'm serious too. I think

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Speaker 1: I'm serious. I don't think you're wrong. We covered that

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Speaker 1: movie a while back on the Matreon, so if you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard it listeners, go check it out. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: should I do the recap and then we'll discuss let's

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Speaker 1: do it. Okay, Actually, let's take a quick break first,

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Speaker 1: and then we will be right back. And we're back,

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Speaker 1: so Double Indemnity. We meet Walter Neff played by Fred McMurray.

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Speaker 1: He is an insurance salesman who stumbles into his office

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Speaker 1: and starts recording a podcast. Basically, he starts recording a

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Speaker 1: confession to Mr Keys, who we will later learn is

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Speaker 1: a colleague of Walter Nefts. He confesses that he murdered

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Speaker 1: someone named Dietrichson. He did it for the money and

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Speaker 1: a woman, but he didn't get either. He mentions a

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Speaker 1: double indemnity, and we're like, wow, that's the name of

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Speaker 1: the movie. I was like, I hope he defines that

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Speaker 1: in dialogue at some point, and then he does, which

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Speaker 1: is genuinely needed, so thank you. Yes, and then he

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Speaker 1: starts to tell the story about how all of this transpired,

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Speaker 1: and then we flashback to Walter paying Mr Dietrichson a

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Speaker 1: visit at his Los Angeles home to talk about his

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Speaker 1: expired car insurance policy. Mr. Dietrichson is not home, but

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Speaker 1: his wife. His wife, his wife, Mrs Dietrichson A. K.

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Speaker 1: Phillis played by Barbara Stanwick, is home. She comes out

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Speaker 1: all sexy and not fully closed. She's got like a

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Speaker 1: towel draped on her. Yeah. They they really need to

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Speaker 1: signal to you what's going on right away. I did

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Speaker 1: like that. They like just like old tiny ways of

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Speaker 1: objectifying a woman are funny, where he kept being like

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Speaker 1: her anklet, You're like, you're a pervert. Stop talking about

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Speaker 1: her anklet. In that moment too, when he first meets

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Speaker 1: her and she was sunbathing, he says, I hope there

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Speaker 1: aren't any pigeons like lines that. I was like, what

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Speaker 1: the fuck is this comedy? Like, yeah, it's like this.

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Speaker 1: I would almost rather someone. I mean, I would rather

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Speaker 1: Walter never speak to me. But if he had to have,

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Speaker 1: I does that roundabout it's just creepy. He's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I hope there's all pigeons, just like I hope birds

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Speaker 1: aren't shipping on you. Is that what I guess? So,

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Speaker 1: and then right right after the housekeeper says like, the

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Speaker 1: living room is where they keep the liquor sucked up,

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Speaker 1: which is also a weird thing, and he says, that's

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Speaker 1: all right, I always carry my own keys. Like some

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Speaker 1: of the dialogue in this, I kept being like, what

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Speaker 1: the fuck. I don't understand it. It's another I'm adjusting

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Speaker 1: the name of this test. I need to figure it out.

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Speaker 1: But it is an example of if the person if

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Speaker 1: the actor saying that line wasn't extremely conventionally hot. You'd

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Speaker 1: be like, this guy is weird. Why is he acting

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Speaker 1: like this? Yes? Yes, I think part of it is

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Speaker 1: like the writer's attempt to have like really quippy, clever

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Speaker 1: dialogue in a way that might have made more sense

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Speaker 1: to like audiences, but you know, many decades later we're like,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? I think it's a combination

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Speaker 1: of that, and a lot of the dialogue has to

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Speaker 1: be euphemism to skirt the restrictions of the production code.

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Speaker 1: So I like it. I like it. I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's just so bizarre to hear characters talk like that

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Speaker 1: to each other and um, feel like it's just another day,

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Speaker 1: another day talking like a weirdo. Uh yeah, So Phillis

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Speaker 1: Dietrichson agrees to chat with Walter Nef and uh he

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Speaker 1: spends that entire conversation hitting on her in a very

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Speaker 1: nies way, and then she asks if he handles accident insurance,

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Speaker 1: which he does, and she tells him to come back

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Speaker 1: at a different time when her husband will be home.

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Speaker 1: Then we see Walter at his office. We meet Keys,

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Speaker 1: who is Walter F's colleague. His whole thing is that

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Speaker 1: he's a skeptic and he can always sniff out a

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Speaker 1: fraudulent insurance claim because he feels it right here, and

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Speaker 1: he like basically like points to his like tour. So

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Speaker 1: it was I was like, what are you doing? It's

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Speaker 1: is this the weird dick thing? Like? It was very

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, your heart, like your heart and

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Speaker 1: your heart it was so it's like, okay, buddy, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he keeps referring to the little man who lives inside him. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that was the thing. You're like, is this like is

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Speaker 1: this a euphemism? What's happening here? I don't understand. He's like,

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Speaker 1: I always know when someone's lying to me. I can

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Speaker 1: feel it in my dick. Well, my dick starts to

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Speaker 1: the thrub. That's when you know someone's not telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: I really liked that moment with him. I mean that

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Speaker 1: that who is that character? I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 1: seen that character actor before. Um Edward g Robinson. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: apparently he was quite famous back in the day, but

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Speaker 1: I don't really know him. Oh no, oh. He he

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Speaker 1: named people during the Red Scare little as he named

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Speaker 1: Dalton Trumbo. Wow. Okay, this bitch, okay, So all right,

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Speaker 1: you and your little band and this Wikipedia page. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: go fuck yourself. Oh your digs throbbing and out good

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Speaker 1: hearted communists jesus um okay Keys the character. I really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed that scene where kind of like apropa of nothing,

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Speaker 1: he just is like, yeah, I almost got married once.

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Speaker 1: Didn't work out though, Like he just starts going off

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Speaker 1: about how he's never been loved in his life and

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Speaker 1: that's why he's so good at an insurance I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. Also, the reasons he lists for like

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Speaker 1: not going through with that marriage are so wild. And again,

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Speaker 1: you know, the standards of the time were very different.

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Speaker 1: But he's like, she I found out that she used

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Speaker 1: to dye her hair or that she's been dyeing her

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Speaker 1: hair since she was sixteen, and also she was married

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Speaker 1: once before. And then he also like makes a reference

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Speaker 1: to how there's like mental illness in her family. So

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Speaker 1: he's like and then and then Walter's like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: get it. She was a tramp. Everyone in her family

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Speaker 1: is a tramp. Blah blah blah, and it's just like, yikes,

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Speaker 1: your standards are very mean. This guy was so dirty

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Speaker 1: at the House of Un American Activities Committee. What a

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Speaker 1: what a piece of ship, What an asshole? He thought,

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Speaker 1: and again of the time, I'm sure he's like, this

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Speaker 1: is we don't have time to talk about this today.

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Speaker 1: I'm disappointed Edward also r I P. He died like

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Speaker 1: years ago. Fun fact, at sometime next year, I'll be

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Speaker 1: releasing a video series and one of the episodes is

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Speaker 1: about the Hollywood Blacklist, So tune into that whenever the

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Speaker 1: funk that appears, keep your keep your eyes peeled, listeners,

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Speaker 1: please filet a fish our boy Edward because he fucked up.

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Speaker 1: He fucked up big time. All right, so we we've

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Speaker 1: met keys. Then Walter nef goes back to Phillis Dietrichson,

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Speaker 1: who tells him that she wants to take out an

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Speaker 1: accident insurance policy on her husband, who works a dangerous

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Speaker 1: job in the oil fields, but she doesn't want her

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Speaker 1: husband to know about it, and Walter automatically assumes that

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Speaker 1: it's because she's trying to find a way to get

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Speaker 1: her husband killed so that she can collect on the

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Speaker 1: insurance money. But she's like, no, I decay what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. But even so he storms out, but then

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Speaker 1: he's like, oh wait a minute. Though she's so hot,

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Speaker 1: I mean she wears an anklets a I mean, he

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Speaker 1: brings it up like four or five times. It's like

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Speaker 1: really weird. It's like, yeah, the way the anklet was

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Speaker 1: cutting into your leg, Like okay, So he comes back

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Speaker 1: and like, I'm just using this as a cue to

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Speaker 1: talk about the like the dialogue e banter. Right, that's

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Speaker 1: very not the way that people talk. And I haven't

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Speaker 1: watched a lot of movies from the forties, but it

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Speaker 1: is very much the sort of stereotype that I think

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Speaker 1: we think of when we think about like older films. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I found it really hard to watch, you know, and

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Speaker 1: you both expressed that, like you enjoyed it and like

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Speaker 1: thought it was kind of a fun thing and for me,

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Speaker 1: like it it got really exhausting after a while. Oh definitely,

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Speaker 1: you know, like it was just too I was like,

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Speaker 1: can you all just fucking like and again, film history

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Speaker 1: like has changed so much in terms of what we

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Speaker 1: expect of actors and storytelling and all of that. But

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Speaker 1: I was just getting really like okay enough already with

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Speaker 1: the performativeness in this conversation. Right. It definitely gave me

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Speaker 1: whiplash after a while, because there's that scene where he's like,

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Speaker 1: suppose I am speeding and she's like, well, suppose I

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Speaker 1: give you a ticket and suppose you leave me off

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Speaker 1: with a warning, And I'm just like, see that just

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Speaker 1: makes me laugh. Where they're like flirting and you're like

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Speaker 1: this is this is I barely recognize this as the

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Speaker 1: English language, Like what are you guys talking about? And

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Speaker 1: then at the end they're like, we have a crush

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Speaker 1: on each other? Like from basically that interesting. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: it also reminds me and like, okay, Josh Weeden's a

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Speaker 1: piece of ship, so acknowledging that before I go into this,

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Speaker 1: but it reminds me of how like Buffy and some

396
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Speaker 1: of the work that he did in the nineties and

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Speaker 1: two thousands sort of popularized that kind of like and

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Speaker 1: and I'd say, you're more girls to kind of popularize that,

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Speaker 1: Like it feels like a remnant of that time, but

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Speaker 1: but kind of normal like that I didn't have a

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Speaker 1: problem with, like I liked, I didn't like more girls,

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Speaker 1: but so it feels a little bit like that. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, it's not like we don't do that anymore,

404
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: but it but it's it's modernized in a way that's

405
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: like our jokes and our communication and our you know,

406
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Speaker 1: like sort of hyper communication of of the moment. But man,

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Speaker 1: I just I was really by the end of it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, can you just stop talking? I'm a

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Speaker 1: sucker for people talking real fast, and so other times

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Speaker 1: I was talking real fast, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: what uh? But that's also YouTube life, right, Like the

412
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Speaker 1: joke about YouTubers is that they all talked super fast

413
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Speaker 1: because we used to have time constraints, so we're trying

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Speaker 1: to like shove everything in. So I don't I think

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Speaker 1: it's just interesting how like that kind of maybe like

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Speaker 1: Ebbed and Float a little bit in terms of the

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Speaker 1: way that what we accept as like witty dialogue and

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Speaker 1: speed of of talking um changes or our perception of

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Speaker 1: it in the past changes to right, and it's all

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Speaker 1: like the mid Atlantic kind of fake fucking accents and

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Speaker 1: ship where you're like, I mean, there's also like there's

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Speaker 1: like movie dialogue that you like, read it on the

423
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: page or you hear it, and you're like, this is

424
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: dialogue versus something that feels more realistic and organic and conversational,

425
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: which like also can be very well written. But I

426
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: don't know, I I'm kind of a sucker for dialogue

427
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: that no one would actually say in real life because

428
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,479
Speaker 1: it's like very clearly written. It's like too clever and

429
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: too quickly, like the West Wing kind of I know,

430
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: I know that's the flavor. I don't, but I'm saying

431
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: it's that kind of thing where you're like, this isn't real,

432
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: but also like you kind of like a lot of

433
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: people really vibe with it, right sure, Yeah, yeah, I

434
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, there's there's probably like a fast talking

435
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: genre or like piece of work for every like generation

436
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 1: that it's like either you're into it or you're not,

437
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: or I don't know. I do also want to add

438
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: that if I literally in my notes, I wrote, if

439
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: he says baby one more time, oh my gosh, Like

440
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: I here's the thing is Walter Neff Fred McMurray, Like

441
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: it's just so unlikable in every conceivable way. There's nothing

442
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: about you feel that way because I was like, I'm

443
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: not interested in this man at all. He's yeah, not

444
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: for me. I think I would have liked the movie

445
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: more if I gave any fox at all about this guy.

446
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: But he just seemed so unlikable and so uninteresting in

447
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: such a piece of ship in every way that like

448
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: I don't feel bad that he's being manipulated. I don't

449
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: feel bad that he is like he like, he's like

450
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: I want you to fail and I want you to

451
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: get like, you know whatever. And so I think that that.

452
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: I don't think as an audience member, we're supposed to

453
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: feel that way about him. No, I think the movie

454
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: because he was prior to this, like a rom com star,

455
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: and he almost turned down the role because he's like,

456
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: this role is going to tarnish my reputation as a

457
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: like an America's sweetheart, you know, like rom com guy.

458
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: But then he went for it anyway. But yeah, I

459
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: think he he as an actor, people liked him, and

460
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: we are meant to be endeared to him. But yeah, again,

461
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: by like my standards today, I'm just like, oh, quick

462
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: calling her baby eight hundred times. Yeah, I I didn't really,

463
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. And I'm like, maybe

464
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: this is just me being annoying. But I'm like if maybe,

465
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: if there was a different actor in that role. But

466
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: but the other thing is with noir characters in general,

467
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: I guess I don't understand from a writing perspective why

468
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: you wouldn't give the audience more information about who waltern

469
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: f is or like what because it just seems like

470
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: he's living this like steak less life. Like he's a

471
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: single guy. We don't know anything about his family. He

472
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: seems like he's financially comfortable enough, but we don't really

473
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: know anything about him, and so it's hard to like,

474
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: like if you just if they just added one or

475
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: two details of like and he has a sick cat

476
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: or like just something to like endear you to him

477
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: or just to give information, but he's just like a guy.

478
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I was like, well, I don't really

479
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: care what happens to this guy. He's just some guy.

480
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: When in the history of film noir did it become

481
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: kind of attached to the sort of hard boiled detective,

482
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: because that so this movie is this like fem fatale

483
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: manipulating this guy, right, is kind of the vibes that

484
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: are happening. But in my mind, being very uneducated in

485
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: this space, I'm like, well, shouldn't he be a little

486
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: more hard boiled and a little more like gruff? Right?

487
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: I think that ordinarily that is the case of like

488
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: there's more gruffness, you'll have a little bit more information

489
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: about the character, which kind of just like, well, there's

490
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: a whole character kind of strikes me as a little

491
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: bizarre because I'm just like, I feel like I don't

492
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: know who this person is, so I can't even like

493
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: from a like oh, I feel bad for this guy,

494
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: Like I don't really feel bad for him because he

495
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: seems to know exactly what's going on outside of the

496
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: fact that she is manipulated, like that's the only thing

497
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: he doesn't know. But everything else, there's so many plot

498
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: developments in this murder plot that are like his idea,

499
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: So I'm like, yeah, he's gonna get what's coming to him.

500
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: Like it's not like she's like, oh, we should do

501
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: this or we should do this, which she does sometimes

502
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: she's obviously an active participant in this plot, but his

503
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: whole thing where they're like, oh no, we actually have

504
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: to throw your husband off a train and then we'll

505
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: get twice the money, and I was like, okay, So

506
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: he's just like a full on which collusion, like goof us,

507
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: and I don't care what happens to him. And I

508
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: don't think that they and you already said this, Jamie,

509
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: but they don't do a good enough job of showing

510
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: that they fucking care. About each other, and I know

511
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: that there's the bit, there's the bit at the end. Well,

512
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: we're not there yet. We'll deal with it when whatever.

513
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: But but like we're not supposed to think that she

514
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: really cares that much about him, right, We're supposed to

515
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: like she's she's manipulating him, and she's like going along

516
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: with it, and he's in love with her, but like

517
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: they don't do anything to really build that relationship or

518
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 1: the emotional stakes of it in any way. And so

519
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: he calls her baby. So that's how we know that

520
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: her question mark. There's those long montages. Yeah, there's all

521
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: these opportunities, and I get, like story logic. I'm like, okay,

522
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: that makes sense. But also I wouldn't have been bothered

523
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 1: as an audience member. But there's just like they'll have

524
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: one conversation and then they'll be a montage where he's

525
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: like and then I didn't see her for two weeks,

526
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: and I kind of just went back to what I

527
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: was doing and I was like, well, that's boring, that

528
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: doesn't right, I don't really care. Yeah, there's a whole

529
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: conversation we had about like his motive or lack thereof,

530
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: it's wild. His I think his motive is that he's horny,

531
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: Like here's a bit, yeah, which I mean, I've had

532
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: a horny motive in my day, but not sure, you know,

533
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: not to this extent doesn't drive you to murder. And

534
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: I've got a personality unlike Walter, So it's interesting when

535
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: I have a horny motive. Yeah right, um okay, So

536
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: where did we leave off? Um? I like when he

537
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: goes bowling on the way home, I was like, that

538
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: is that is again like just a creepy, bizarre thing

539
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: to do, Like I think I gotta blow some steam out. Hey,

540
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: that's character development, Yeah, he likes. I also wondered if

541
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: that was a euphemism for something like if that was

542
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: understood that if you know, if you go bowling after work.

543
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: It's really like, did he go to a bar and

544
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: get king, I don't know, you have a beer and

545
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: and uh and go bowling alone? Yeah that's you get

546
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: drunk at your house and jerk off right. Um okay.

547
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 1: So he's kind of having conflicting thoughts because he's like,

548
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: I don't wanna, you know, be involved with her, but

549
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 1: she's so hot, so I don't know. And then she

550
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: pays him a visit and basically confirms that his suspicions

551
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: were correct about her wanting to have her husband killed,

552
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: and she reveals that it's because her husband is abusive

553
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: toward her. Walter and Phyllis kiss. Then Walter is like,

554
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: you know, you probably won't get away with this, but

555
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: with my help and know how as an insurance guy,

556
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: maybe you will get away with it. So then they

557
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: start to scheme. First, they need to trick Mr Dietrichson

558
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: into signing the policy, and they need a witness, which

559
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: ends up being Dietrichson's daughter from his first marriage, Lola,

560
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: So he signs the policy. Then Walter's like, oh, by

561
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: the way, if we do a double indemnity, which is

562
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: when and then we go the title, which is when

563
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: the insurance pays out double on certain accidents. For example,

564
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: if someone is killed on a train, in which case

565
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: for this policy, they would stand to make one thousand

566
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: dollars in the event of Mr Dietrichson's death. So they're like,

567
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: let's cash in on that, which is like a bajillion

568
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: dollars in money, right, yes, So they arrange for Mr

569
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: Dietrichson to take a train on his upcoming trip to

570
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: Palo Alto. But before that happens, Mr Dietrichson falls and

571
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: breaks his leg and calls off the trip. So Phillis

572
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: is freaking out, but Walter's like, it's cool, we just

573
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: got to be patient. And then also Walter and Phillis

574
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: are having an affair throughout this whole thing, and he

575
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: keeps calling her baby in its growth. Yeah, that's how

576
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: you know that they're in love because they kissed two

577
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: times and he calls her baby one million times, And

578
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: that's that's love. That's how love works. Yes, So Walter

579
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: tries to take his mind off the whole thing. A

580
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: week or so passes, and then one day he gets

581
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: a call from Phillis saying that her husband is taking

582
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: the train that night. So this is their chance. Another

583
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: thing that I just I thought was like bizarre and

584
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 1: finding when I was reading about the just the way

585
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: that this movie was written, because Raymond Chandler was a

586
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: co writer on this, was that he, like I guess,

587
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: he spent a lot of time in l A trying

588
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: to like get a feel for like this this movie,

589
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the moments feel like that as an

590
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 1: l sketch where they can't stop talking about traffic and intersections,

591
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: because there's so many times where the characters are so

592
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: specific about like what street in l A they're going

593
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: to to, like go roller skating, or it's like, yeah,

594
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to Formosa and Santa Monica that blah blah

595
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: blah blah and her houses on those fields boulevard. I

596
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: was like, this is not That's not what that looks like.

597
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: It's like I was like, did it look like that?

598
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, it is very like this is l A,

599
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: but it doesn't like I wouldn't put it in an

600
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,959
Speaker 1: l A category of like if you want to watch

601
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: movies about l A, because it didn't feel like l

602
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: A in any way other than the names of streets.

603
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: I just thought it was funny that they like felt

604
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: that it als like a self conscious reflects to be like,

605
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: we're definitely here and we know the names of the

606
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: streets too. Okay, So that night, Walter does a bunch

607
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,919
Speaker 1: of things to establish his alibi. Then Walter kills Mr

608
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: Dietrichson as Phillis drives him to the train station, and

609
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: then Walter gets on the train pretending to be Mr

610
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: Dietrichson and jumps off the train and fakes the accident,

611
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 1: and then they put Mr Dietrichson's dead body on the tracks,

612
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: and it seems like everything went according to plan, but

613
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: Walter can't help but feel something's wrong or they like,

614
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, he's going to be found out or something.

615
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: In the days that follow, the police find Mr Dietrichson's body.

616
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: They rule it an accidental death. But then Walter's boss,

617
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: whose name is Edward Norton by the way, um I

618
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: also was like he's pissed that the company is going

619
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: to have to pay out all the money on Dietrichson's policy,

620
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: and he's certain the death was not an accident. He

621
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: thinks it was a suicide. So he calls in Phyllis,

622
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: who says like, that's ridiculous. My husband didn't die by suicide.

623
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: And Keys, who again is a skeptic, believes that the

624
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: death was an accident at first, so it looks like

625
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: Walter and Phyllis are going to get the one thousand

626
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: dollar pay out. But then Keys is like, wait a minute.

627
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 1: If Mr Dietrichson knew he had accident insurance, why didn't

628
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: he do anything when he broke his leg? So then

629
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: Keys gets to thinking the whole thing was a set up. Meanwhile,

630
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: Phillis and Walter are freaking out. The whole situation is

631
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: tearing their relationship apart. Then the daughter Lola pays Walter

632
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: visit and tells him that she suspects Phillis murdered her

633
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: mother several years back. I like Lola. She's a smart cookie.

634
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: People gotta take Lola more seriously. Oh my god, the

635
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: amount that she gets gas lit by Walter in this movie,

636
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: and then he starts dating her basically to distract her.

637
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: I know, is it ever stated how old she is?

638
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: I feel it's heavily applied that she is a teenager,

639
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: Like she's in school, so she's going roller skating, she

640
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: needs permission from her dad to go places. I was

641
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: really curious about this, so I found the screenplay that

642
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: was written in the forties to see if it's said.

643
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: And it does say how old she is. She is

644
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: nineteen according to the screenplay. That's convenient. I guess that is.

645
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: I loving creepy movies where they're like, Hi, I'm eighteen,

646
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: so this creepy thing that's about to happen is totally legal.

647
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: And then she turns to the camera she's like, I'm eighteen.

648
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: Recently and like you're just like, oh my god, um,

649
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: that is interesting that that they felt the need to specify.

650
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: And by interesting, I mean we aired right. Yeah, so

651
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: either way, he I meat, whatever there's I mean, it's

652
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: still creepy because they start dating and he's thirty five

653
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: and she's nineteen, and and it's under false pretenses, like

654
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 1: there's so much about it, and there's this whole other

655
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: boyfriend to Zaketty right is in the is in the

656
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: works here, who's not looking particularly in nineteen years to me.

657
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: And also speaking of like male toxic behaviors. When we

658
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: meet Zaketty, he is just like, who's this guy? You

659
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: can't when you're with me. You can't be with this guy.

660
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: He can't know about me, I like. And it was

661
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: just like really aggressive and she's like no, no, baby,

662
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: I love you, and you're like I know, like you

663
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: just worry for this poor girl and she's been through

664
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: so much and like the it did make me laugh

665
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: when the Zaketty guy was like, I don't have friends

666
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: and like, well we can see why. Y. Yeah, you're

667
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: you're a little abrasive, right, Yeah, I don't know. I

668
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: mean that when he starts dating her. I was like,

669
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: this can't be happening, and like we've had age gap

670
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: conversations on the show before. I don't think we need

671
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: to get into it today, but like this one, there's

672
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 1: a pretty obvious uh no, thank you. Right, So Lola

673
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: thinks that Phillis killed her father now too, so Walter

674
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: is like gaslighting her and distracting her so that she

675
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: doesn't tell anyone else about it. Keys, meanwhile, is piecing

676
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: things together more and more. Basically, he has the whole

677
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: crime figured out, except for who pulled it off. He

678
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: doesn't yet know that it was Walter, and because Keys

679
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: is like getting so close to the truth, Walter wants

680
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: to distance himself from Phillis, especially because he also continues

681
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: to see Lola, and especially because he finds out that

682
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: Phillis has been having an affair with Lola's former boyfriend,

683
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: Nino's a Ketty, so he does have a friend he right,

684
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: So then Walter goes to confront phil this. She shoots him,

685
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: but he doesn't die right away, and he gets the

686
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: gun and shoots her and kills her, and then he

687
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: goes to his office and starts the confession that we

688
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 1: saw him recording at the beginning, except Keys comes in

689
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: and overhears so Walter tries to leave. He wants to

690
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: escape across the border, but he dies from his gunshot

691
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: wound before he can even get out of the building.

692
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: And that's how the movie ends. So let's take a

693
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: quick break and then we will come back to discuss

694
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: and we're back, Okay, Can we talk about the Fatales

695
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: just for a minute? Oh yeah, yes please. So I

696
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: dragged Caitlin out to watch Batman Returns, the best movie

697
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: that's ever been made recently, And when I left the movie,

698
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how my feminist analysis has become

699
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: much more nuanced and more open to things like Catwoman. Um,

700
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: whereas I, like ten years ago, I would have been

701
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: like this sexist piece of ship Da da da da da. Right,

702
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: So I was thinking about this with fem fay twels

703
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: because like on the surface, and maybe not the surface,

704
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: but this is kind of what I wanted to chat

705
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: with you about, is like they seem incredibly sexist representations, right,

706
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: And Jamie, you started us talking about like films and

707
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: and like narrative media often bring out these anxieties that

708
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: are coming around at the times that they're they're being created,

709
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: and so you know, like it's exhausting to be like

710
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: this manipulative woman who's just trying to get money and

711
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: kill her husband and like a lot of fem fay twels,

712
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: is that kind of like women are sneaky and duplicitous

713
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: and they use their sexual whiles to like get men

714
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: to do things for them. Right, Is there like in

715
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: your minds, is there any nuance to this? Is there

716
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: any way in which that is like salvageable as not

717
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: fucked up? I think that it's like it depends. I mean,

718
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: I don't I don't have like I don't know how

719
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: you feel it, but I don't have like a hard

720
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: answer to that. I think that the more context I

721
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: had for why these characters were so popular when they

722
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: were so popular, um kind of clarified how I felt

723
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: about it, because I do think it's like, ultimately it

724
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: is a I think it's like the kind of misogynist

725
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: trope that is easily reclaimable, but it was not intended

726
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: to be reclaimable. It's like very much a clear like

727
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: the most heterosexual white dudes in the world are writing

728
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: this at a time where women were, I guess, unusually

729
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: able to access money and capital and power during World

730
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: War two, and so I feel like it's it's just

731
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 1: like calcifying that anxiety and selling it back to men

732
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: who are feeling the same way. I do think that

733
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: there is an angle to reclaim the fim fatale that

734
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: has been kind of reclaimed in some neo noir movies

735
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: because and I think, like, I didn't remember this particular

736
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: detail about this movie, but the fact that Phillis, you know,

737
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: they include the detail that Phillis is being abused by

738
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: her husband, and so I feel like there's an in

739
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: right there for like that, well, we got to get revenge,

740
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: Like but that's the thing is she's so manipulative that

741
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: why would you believe that I had that? I thought

742
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: too where I was like, is that part of Because

743
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: so in addition to like using her sexual wiles and

744
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, her feminine wiles and her sexuality and exploiting

745
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: that to deceive and seduce men, the fem fatale archetype

746
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: also is just like flat out lying and using deceit

747
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: to get what she wants. And I it did occur

748
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: to me, like is that the case, Like when she

749
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: reveals that her husband is abusive, is that actually true,

750
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: which very well could be the case. But because we

751
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: don't see it on screen, we don't see the abuse.

752
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: It does make you wonder like is that part of

753
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 1: her deceit? We don't really know for sure. I mean,

754
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: I guess that I believed it. Maybe I'm a Walter too,

755
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: but I believed it because you saw all of the

756
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: other behaviors that she was describing in that conversation. You

757
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: did see him like he was drinking a lot during

758
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: the day, He was dismissive of her, he was belligerent

759
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: towards her, he was dismissive of his daughter. And so

760
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 1: because that was sort of where I was going where

761
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: I was like, well, you it seems like you know,

762
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't like she was like, he's this awful piece

763
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: of ship. And then you met this very sweet husband

764
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: who was very in love with her, Like it did

765
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: seem like he was I mean, didn't deserve to be

766
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: thrown off a train, maybe, but but I don't know.

767
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: That was where I saw the end for this was

768
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: buying into the story of this woman who is unhappy

769
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: with her wife getting revenge, which of course like changes

770
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: when you find out that she also killed his wife,

771
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: which is. So that's where for me, it's like it

772
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: kind of falls apart where it's like this witchy stereotype

773
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: where you have no what like why why why does

774
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: she start killing people? What is the motivation? What does

775
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: she get out of it? Who is she like? What

776
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: is her background? And all of these things I feel

777
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: like would make her a much more accessible character, but

778
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: it feels like that information is withheld from you by

779
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: the writers intentionally, So you're just like, this woman is

780
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: evil in a in a vacuum. We don't trust her,

781
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: and she's using sexuality to get what she wants. I

782
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm very conflicted about it. Um same, yeah,

783
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: like it's I do I do understand why them fatale

784
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: trope has been reclaimed and why it hasn't like disappeared,

785
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 1: because it's also like I feel like in in the nineties,

786
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: this is like a kind of an unusual role where

787
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: it's an active female character right that she is involved,

788
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: like so deeply involved in the plot, and she moved

789
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: things forward. Everything is her idea for the most part,

790
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:53,919
Speaker 1: and it's not like there were a lot of movies

791
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: at this time where you could just you could see

792
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: a woman do anything except be mommy or wife. Right, Yeah,

793
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: the fim fatale character, by nature of the narrative that's

794
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: being told, usually means that that character has way more

795
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: agency than a lot of female characters that we've seen

796
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: in like cinema or literature before or since, like, and

797
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: then you can make the argument that it's representation on

798
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 1: screen of like a sexually liberated woman and a woman

799
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: that has sexual autonomy over her own evil to be

800
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: sexually And that's that's always where I diverged from a

801
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: lot of the feminist analysis of this stuff, because I

802
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: was like, but is it, like if she's evil and

803
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: manipulative and we're supposed to think of her like as

804
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: a bad you know, like as a bad person and

805
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: because women are evil, just because she has like is

806
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: in tune with her sexuality. I don't think that that's

807
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: a pro for us as a movement, right as like

808
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: feminisms you know, in general. But I think that there

809
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: has been a push in feminist film theory specifically to

810
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: try and kind of wedge in this like sort of

811
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: positive angle on some of these films that I just

812
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: don't think works. Like, I don't think that analysis really

813
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: right because when things that we are hoping to see

814
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: such as like women having autonomy over their own sexuality

815
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: when that is being vilified. Obviously that's not it's not

816
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 1: a plus for us. And I definitely don't think it's

817
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: like a movement pushing trope at all. I just understand

818
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: why people I feel like it almost maybe I'm off here,

819
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: but I feel like it kind of the impulse to

820
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: reclaim a sexually liberated woman who's clearly enjoying being evil,

821
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: It like almost scratches the same edge of reclaiming queer

822
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: coded Disney villains where you're like, Okay, this was done

823
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: with like not a kind intention to the community, Like

824
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: this is like it's clearly vilifying this care but they're

825
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: having so much fun and it's like they're so active

826
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: that and and also like I feel like it's very

827
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: important that it's like and this was the most you

828
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: could get at this time. I think that that has

829
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: a lot to do with it as well. Yeah, where

830
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: like there just weren't options. Yeah, I want to just

831
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: reiterate and agree with you on that of like, marginalized

832
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: folks have been desperate for representation at all, and we

833
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: take the scraps we can get right, and we and

834
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: we left read, and we queer code, and we do

835
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 1: all kinds of things to feel seen and and recognized

836
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 1: in a medium in entertainment in general. Um, so yes,

837
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: but also like, but also it's a problem. Um related

838
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: to this is I think there's also the other piece

839
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: of this is around complexity and allowing marginalized characters to

840
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: be evil or to be messy, or to be complicated,

841
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: because historically we don't we don't really have that right

842
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 1: that you like, queer folks are always villainized and black

843
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: folks always die, and you know, like we have all

844
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 1: these tropes that don't come out of nothing. That there

845
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: is something to be said about the fact that, like, yes,

846
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: it's kind of cool to be able to see to

847
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: see women in a character that is more complex than

848
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: the housewife or the love interest, but it's still detrimental, right,

849
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: And so holding those two truths in some way, I

850
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: think is what makes these conversations so rich and and interesting, right,

851
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: I totally agree, because this character could have been made

852
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: to be more complicated in a way that we as

853
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: the audience could have conflicting feelings about, Like, yes, I

854
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: understand her motive for wanting to get rid of her husband,

855
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: and I see where she's coming from, Like I would

856
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 1: identify with that also, But you know, murder also isn't good.

857
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 1: So I don't know. But the movie and and many

858
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: of these movies just paint the fum fatal character in

859
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 1: these very broad strokes of like, well, no, her her

860
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: motivations aren't complicated, her backstory isn't complicated. She wants to steal,

861
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: she wants to cheat, she wants to She's evil for

862
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 1: the sake of being evil. And to me, it comes

863
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: back to intent as far as like the people who

864
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: were writing these characters, because you know, the fem fatale

865
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: character in film noir specifically, because this archetype has existed

866
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: in literature for centuries, right, right, but for film no

867
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: war specifically, Like you said, Jamie, it was in response

868
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: to like men's anxieties over you know, empowered women and

869
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: sexually liberated women like the Flappers of the twenties, and

870
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 1: how men felt threatened by that voting now right, And

871
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: because in a patriarchal structure that is designed to disempower

872
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 1: women in all capacities of their life, including their sexuality,

873
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: a sexually empowered woman with agency and autonomy is going

874
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: to be a threat to a lot of individual men

875
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: and a threat to the larger structure. So because because

876
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: that's the reason that film fatales were written that way,

877
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: and these like broad strokes of like they're evil because

878
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: women are scary and I'm I feel threatened by them.

879
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: And also contextually to remember the early like the turn

880
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: of the century was like there was a he like one.

881
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: There was the fight for women's right to vote, which

882
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: obviously complicated and I don't want to erase the racism

883
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,879
Speaker 1: and everything around that um, but also there was a

884
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: huge like huge battle for birth control and like reproductive

885
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: rights was happening at the time, and there was a

886
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: huge attempt to squash it. It's I mean, it's so

887
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: exactly what's happening right now. It's like nothing has changed.

888
00:51:54,520 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: But you had around that time, well the postman ster guy,

889
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: the guy that is really famous guy in the early

890
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds who decided to make it illegal to mail

891
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: any anything in the mail that is like sexual in nature,

892
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 1: so like not even sex toys or birth control, but

893
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: also like love letters and photos and all of that

894
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. I didn't know that, Yeah, And so

895
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 1: there is a whole like through legal means, a pushback

896
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: against the rising tide of women's sexuality and sexual ownership

897
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: and you know, rights to birth control and all of

898
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: that that's happening. So that is also informing some of

899
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 1: what I think we're seeing in the film Fatale as well. Yeah,

900
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: that makes sense. That's really interesting. I didn't. I wasn't.

901
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: That is such a fuck up thing to do. Holy

902
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: sh it, it isn't. Another one of the episodes coming

903
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: into and I'm like, what is this guy's fucking name.

904
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: I'm totally like, yeah, I don't know. Um, Jamie, you

905
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: started to touch on something as far as like Walter's

906
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: character goes and how his motive is so flimsy, and

907
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: to me, like he's saying that that was like written intentionally,

908
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: which I also find confusing, maybe in an effort to

909
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 1: like just lean into the idea that, oh, women are

910
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: so scary and be aware of any woman who is

911
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: sexually liberated because she's going to get you and she's

912
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 1: gonna kill you. I wonder if Walter's character was written

913
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: the way that it was to just further emphasize that,

914
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: because again, he doesn't seem to have much of a

915
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 1: motive to commit murder. It just seems that he's kind

916
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: of like under the spell of this woman and her

917
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: quote Feminine Wiles, where you know, it's just like this

918
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 1: idea that don't be a weak man. Weak men are

919
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: tempted by these temptresses and you'll succumb to the temptation,

920
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: which like, yeah, Further is the argument that she's literally

921
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: like a variation on a witch right and like has

922
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: her anklet has him like wouldn't normally do. I was

923
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,919
Speaker 1: also reading that they, I don't know, just a few

924
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,439
Speaker 1: things were done in this movie intentionally that I guess

925
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: I just assumed we're not done intentionally, including her bad wig.

926
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: They're like, we chose a bad Billy Wilder said that

927
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: they chose a bad wig on purpose to underscore what

928
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: a sleazy phony she was, and like, I know, it's

929
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: like measures were taken to really make you hate Phyllis,

930
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: which I think is fun because I watch it and

931
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't hate her, And I wonder how

932
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: if there were women in the audience at this movie,

933
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 1: because women have always been the majority movie goers throughout history,

934
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: and I wonder if there were women in the audience

935
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,919
Speaker 1: at this movie that we're like good for her, you know, right, right,

936
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, but yeah, Walter, I mean, I feel like

937
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: it is kind of inherent to the noir genre in

938
00:54:58,239 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: a way that's kind of frustrating, And I feel like

939
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: some neo noir's have course corrected this because it doesn't

940
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: need to be this way. But like all of the

941
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: characters are kind of mysterious, or that's what you're told.

942
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, everyone's kind of mysterious. You don't know

943
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: what's going on with anybody, you can't trust anybody. But

944
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: then what you lose there is like you don't know

945
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 1: anything about anybody. So it's really hard to get attached

946
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: to any particular character because you're like, well, I guess

947
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens, but I don't know, like what

948
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 1: this person's deal is. I would have loved to understand

949
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: what drove Phyllis to kill his wife. I like that

950
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: is like such an important piece of context that would

951
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: have drawn me into that character's story so much more.

952
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 1: But they're just like, well, she's evil, so of course

953
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 1: she would do this. Yeah, I'm interested in So, like,

954
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: what we've been saying is that neither of them have

955
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: very good character development at least to the standards that

956
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: we would expect of today. And I think that there

957
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: is such a reliance on stereotypes of the time. So,

958
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: like this guy nef Right, the actor who plays him,

959
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: Fred McMurray, like we're like, oh, you're fucking awful and

960
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: terrible and I hate you. But he's probably coming in

961
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: with all of this like goodwill from the audience that

962
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: makes them like him more than we have any context for, right. So,

963
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: and I know we've covered this, but I'm just thinking

964
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: about the fact that, like there's no character development in

965
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,879
Speaker 1: this whole fucking movie at all for anybody, right, Like,

966
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: nobody really you know, you don't really get their motivations.

967
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: You only get them because of the plot, right, like

968
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: the like moment to moment plot of it all, and

969
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,280
Speaker 1: and and so what are we bringing as the audience

970
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: to attach to that? Also, I say this as someone

971
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: who's like obsessed with character development, and if you don't

972
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: fucking have it in your movie, I'm just like, get

973
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: the funk out of here, because like, and I do

974
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: this all the time, and important I'm like, I don't

975
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: understand why these people love each other. I have no

976
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 1: you did not give me a reason for it, right,

977
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: And so in the same way in this I feel

978
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: like it didn't matter because like what an interesting concept,

979
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: this is? What a why like what interesting lighting choice

980
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: is were made? And what you know, all of that

981
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that would suck at audience in at

982
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 1: the time. But why do we still hold onto this

983
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 1: as the quintessential epic? You know, like you both talked

984
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 1: about how you watched it several times in film school,

985
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: how it's like the movie and like this is the

986
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: thing that we're teaching young filmmakers is really really important, right?

987
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: You know it also and this is something we've talked

988
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: about on the podcast too, But it's a matter of

989
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: like who is designing these curriculums in film schools. Who

990
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: is curating the lists, like you know, like the best

991
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: movies of all time lists that this movie is on,

992
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: like every fucking one of Like who are it's like

993
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: members of the academy, like all of that. Who are

994
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: the critics historically? Who have you know, hailed movies like this?

995
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: It's again historically been siss white men with like curriculum too.

996
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: I feel like there is such a like copy paste

997
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: effect where it's like if if and this varies, but

998
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: like if professors were paid, you know, more for their

999
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: labor and had time to put together their own curriculum

1000
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: and actually like watch ship and and like build their

1001
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: own stuff, I feel like you wouldn't. You wouldn't have

1002
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: every single college freshman in a film program watching Double Indemnity.

1003
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 1: But it's just like, oh, yeah, I guess this is

1004
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: a movie you watched during the noir section, and so

1005
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: every kid being extorted for money by this big e. Anyways,

1006
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: I wish I couldn't gone to college waste of time.

1007
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: It's also self fulfilling, right, because you were taught that

1008
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: this was really important. Therefore you're going to teach that

1009
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: it's really important, right. And I also was thinking about

1010
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: how we often look at film, um and media in general,

1011
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: music whatever, from time periods as representative of the time,

1012
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: but they're really not, Like this is such a good

1013
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: example of that where not sorry, I'm gonna temper that

1014
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: a little bit. Whereas like film up until very recently

1015
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: was not something you could just fucking go do, right,

1016
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: Like it's not something that you could us like film

1017
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: on your phone and make movies and be like I

1018
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 1: have a story to tell and I want to tell it,

1019
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: so we're not getting we don't have the alternative perspectives

1020
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: of in film media, specifically of that time period, of

1021
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: all the women who are like fuck yeah, we're like

1022
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: taking over and like doing all of this stuff. Right,

1023
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: We're only getting the impressions of the dominant powerful in

1024
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: the moment, right, right. And I think that I'm just

1025
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: thinking about this now as we're talking, But like how

1026
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: that makes us think that this is what the past was, right?

1027
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: We erase all of the histories of everything else and

1028
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: every other culture and every other like subculture and like

1029
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: groups and that aren't represented in what they were doing.

1030
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: And it makes us in a lot of ways not

1031
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: understand the history of activism, not understand the history of uprising,

1032
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: how change actually happens, because we only have these movies

1033
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: to tell us what it was like. But not only

1034
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, Like right, I mean,

1035
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: it's it's like movies like this that like are the

1036
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: status quo, they maintain the status quo, and then yeah,

1037
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: everything else just gets pushed to the side and a

1038
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: race and then we don't learn about them unless we're

1039
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: like we take it upon ourselves to like dig and

1040
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 1: find this stuff. I think that that's that's a that's

1041
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: an excellent transition into the case that this that Double

1042
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: Indemnity the book was based on, which I did a

1043
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: little bit of light googling on and found it to

1044
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 1: be pretty interesting. I feel like we actually had like

1045
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: a recent ish conversation about this when we did Chicago.

1046
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: It's kind of dealing with the same era, so and

1047
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 1: and just kind of like how the adapt like when

1048
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: men are adapting the ideas of men are adapting the

1049
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: ideas of men. It's just this like funked up game

1050
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: of telephone that ends up with like I have to

1051
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: kill someone because she's got a sexy little anklet. And

1052
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: then it's like, well, let's trace this back to the

1053
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 1: source of what was actually happening. Um. So this is

1054
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: a screenplay by Billy Wilder and Raymond Chandler. There's a

1055
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: bunch of interesting drama that's not relevant to this show

1056
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: that I just enjoyed reading about. So it's a screenplay

1057
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: by them based on a novel called Double Indemnity by

1058
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: an author named James mc kane who wrote that book

1059
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: when he was a reporter writing about a double indemnity

1060
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: case that he attended as a reporter, and and so

1061
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, well what was that crime? And

1062
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: was James Caine. My my little hunch was that James

1063
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: Caine made it sexy for no reason, and that there

1064
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: was probably something going on. Jimmie, did you have a hunch?

1065
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: Did you have a do you have a little man

1066
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: living inside you? That tells I have a little man?

1067
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: And I took up a little magnifying glass and said,

1068
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 1: let's go to Wikipedia dot org and see what's going

1069
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 1: on here. And so that's what I did. Um. So

1070
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: it's a case of a woman named Ruth Snyder from

1071
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: the late twenties who did do the double indemnity thing

1072
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: and and killed her husband, Albert Snyder, and went to jail.

1073
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: It's also a case of how brutalizing marginalized people is

1074
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: always going to get a lot of press attention and

1075
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: really exploitative press attention, because she was eventually killed in

1076
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 1: the electric chair, and they published the photo of her

1077
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: being executed on the front page of the newspaper and

1078
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: it was one of the most famous pictures of the

1079
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: nine twenties. So it was absolutely horrific. The reason she

1080
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: committed the crime was not because she was a witch

1081
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: or uh sexy little anglet have her um it was

1082
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: because of and this actually, I guess I I feel

1083
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: darkly vindicated, even though I don't know what you know,

1084
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: what the writers of the movie thought. But her husband

1085
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: was very physically abusive and emotionally abusive, and he abused

1086
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 1: her because she had a daughter instead of a son, which, um,

1087
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: gender is a construct and no one has fucking control

1088
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 1: over that. He had like pictures of his ex fiance

1089
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: hanging up around their house and refused to take them down.

1090
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: Like it just sounded like an extremely emotionally and physically volatile,

1091
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 1: abusive relationship. And so eventually she she doubled indemnity did

1092
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: and she and she killed the motherfucker. And and I

1093
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: just thought that that was such a It's it's frustrating,

1094
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 1: and I think it's interesting that you can take a

1095
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 1: story that tragic and upsetting and turned it into well,

1096
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: of course she was evil, and we can't even take

1097
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: her at her word that her husband was being abusive

1098
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: because she can't be trusted and she's you know, like,

1099
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: you know what if it is based on that, I

1100
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 1: bet you the her husband abusing her is actually real

1101
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: in the movie. But they didn't do any due diligence

1102
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: of making that established. Right, Yeah, you you sort of

1103
01:03:55,680 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: like brushed upon this. But this idea of sensationalizing marginalized

1104
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: as grief and bodies and um. And I think that

1105
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: that's a really critical piece of all of this is

1106
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 1: that like, well, women are dainty and non violent and

1107
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: don't do these things, and therefore, holy shit, they did

1108
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: this thing. Isn't that like sensational and cool and interesting

1109
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: and newsworthy? Right? And that is also gender essentialism, right,

1110
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 1: we're talking about um, you know, like all humans are

1111
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: capable of all things, right, we all have the same

1112
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean not all, you know what I mean generally speaking,

1113
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: But because patriarchy says that women aren't these things, it's

1114
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,640
Speaker 1: really interesting if we imagine women to be all of

1115
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 1: these you know things in terms of violent and murderous

1116
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: and whatever what have you, not not to erase the

1117
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: fact that there is already patriarchy dictating that women are

1118
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: manipulative and conniving and all of that. But you know

1119
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: that it's just another piece of how why I think

1120
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 1: these these stories get sensational and they still do. They

1121
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,479
Speaker 1: still do, Like we love women as victims, we love

1122
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: like rutalized, like true crime. You know, we're not even

1123
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 1: going to get into the nightmare that is true crime currently,

1124
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: and we love a female villain because it seems it

1125
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: still seems like something outside of the norm, right, Yeah,

1126
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: I think writers justify continuing to like use the tropes

1127
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: because it's like, well, it's interesting, it's it's cinematic, it's

1128
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: these are interesting characters. It also makes you, it makes

1129
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: me wonder, at least how much more sexualized and sinister

1130
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: fem fake tale characters in film noir would have been

1131
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: during this era if it weren't for the restrictions of

1132
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: the production, Like, how much like how much worse could

1133
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 1: it be? Right? Yeah, I mean, but the answer is

1134
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 1: the women in the nineties like action heroes, female nineties

1135
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: action heroes. Right. I've been rewatching all the Terminator movies

1136
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 1: because we're doing an episode on the Terminator franchise at

1137
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: Feminist Frequency Radio you can check out on my podcast.

1138
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: And you know, Terminator three had a female terminator and

1139
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 1: like there's a scene where she sees a billboard with

1140
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 1: a woman with larger breasts, so then they like pant

1141
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 1: to her boobs and she makes them bigger, so she

1142
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: can like get so she can manipulate the cop into

1143
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: letting her go when she was speeding, and you're just like, one,

1144
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,439
Speaker 1: this is such a product of its time. But that's

1145
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: what this would have been. It would have been some

1146
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 1: kind of equivalent to the sexy, you know, hyper sexualized

1147
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,959
Speaker 1: using feminine wiles to get what you want, right, that's true,

1148
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 1: or like basic instinct. Yeah, where like Sharon Stone's just

1149
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 1: like here's my vagina. Now You'll never you won't even

1150
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 1: notice that I'm a murderer yea. And again it's like

1151
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me historically that the trope makes that

1152
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 1: big comeback in the nineties because it's like a similar

1153
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: era of feminist backlash. And so it's like that is

1154
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: when this trope pop, says, when women's rights are being

1155
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: actively set back, So you know, look out for that.

1156
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: If a FM fatale starts to pop, guess what, we're

1157
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: about to lose some rights, which we're doing anyways, that

1158
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: whole like mid nineties to time period was all the

1159
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: like ironic sexism and ironic racism time period. So it

1160
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: was part of the backlash of like coming off of

1161
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 1: the eighties the conservative family values messaging that was being

1162
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 1: pushed by the conservative establishment, and then you had all

1163
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: of this like but we're beyond all, We're beyond sexism.

1164
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 1: So now you get those Carl's Jr. Commercials where women

1165
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: are like eating the burgers and like come is running

1166
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: down their faces and all that ship it all that

1167
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 1: all comes out of that moment, and that's funny. Remember this,

1168
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: You're like, I don't remember that. Like, so I made

1169
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: a really really early Phonus frequency video. I'm sure it's

1170
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 1: embarrassing as fun now about ironic sexism and how like

1171
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 1: South Park is this and so it all that was

1172
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: when we got all of those female act heroes that like,

1173
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: you know, the reboot of Charlie's Angels and um, you know,

1174
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 1: like all of that stuff where you're it's they're so

1175
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: cringe e and hard to watch. But it was women's empowerment,

1176
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 1: the Spice Girls and all that ship you know, Oh yeah, feism, Um, yeah,

1177
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 1: this is I'm so glad. I was really hoping that

1178
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 1: this would be the way that this episode would go.

1179
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,520
Speaker 1: When we would just get into it, I'm very excited.

1180
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 1: I just feel like this movie has more for us

1181
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 1: to talk about in terms of the relevance of what

1182
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 1: this movie means to us today than the like actual

1183
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: content of this movie and versus what's happening. Yeah, it's like, yeah,

1184
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 1: I totally agree, and I just want to the last

1185
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: thing I had about them fatals. I just like, I

1186
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: don't know, it's just such interesting timing. But like how

1187
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: this trope of just like an empowered woman as a

1188
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:56,640
Speaker 1: dangerous woman, We've had so many conversations about that, and

1189
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: how it easily translates to like so many which characters,

1190
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:04,720
Speaker 1: even like recent Witch characters. It's just like coding a

1191
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: woman as competent and therefore evil and therefore unlovable and

1192
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 1: therefore like not the protagonist under any circumstances, which I

1193
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean with the fen fatal, I mean

1194
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 1: I would argue that I don't. I guess like Walter

1195
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like the protagonist of this movie to me

1196
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:27,599
Speaker 1: because I don't care about him. But maybe that's just personal.

1197
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:31,559
Speaker 1: But anyways, as far as the fetal trope went to

1198
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: citly new references earlier, but it goes back to ancient times,

1199
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: like we are addicted to uh mothering any marginalized person,

1200
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 1: but in in this trope, specifically women and the only

1201
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 1: like growth in the trope in this era of Hollywood

1202
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 1: is that the fem faetales are more active now they're

1203
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 1: used to be. Like the earliest examples of the fan

1204
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: faytal trope are like women who are just being told

1205
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 1: they're evil just because so like you have like your

1206
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 1: Helen of Troyes where they're like, she's so hot that

1207
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,520
Speaker 1: we had to have a war about it. Like they're

1208
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 1: completely passive on top of it. So I'm like, I

1209
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: guess I prefer an active and fatale. But even so,

1210
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just especially with the context of like

1211
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:23,520
Speaker 1: the case that trickles down to this movie, it's just like, well, clearly,

1212
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: it just couldn't be more obvious that there should not

1213
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: be exclusively men telling this story because if you go

1214
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 1: back to the source, it's so much more complicated and

1215
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,559
Speaker 1: and and like having those two or three bits of

1216
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 1: context completely changes the way you would view that character

1217
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:46,120
Speaker 1: or that person Ruth Snyder, who was abused and exploited

1218
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 1: on on the other end of of being abused to

1219
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 1: the point where her corpse was in the fucking newspaper.

1220
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 1: Like that stuff makes me so mad just to call out,

1221
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 1: like women will women women who have who have murdered

1222
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 1: their partners, mostly male partners in self defense or because

1223
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: of abusive relationships or what have you, like, are rotting

1224
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 1: in jail like that. It's still not and it's disproportionately

1225
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 1: black and brown women who are incarcerated for it. It's

1226
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 1: just like it's but no, but no. Phyllis was anklet.

1227
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: She was evil. She's bad. She just kills everybody for reasons.

1228
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:33,599
Speaker 1: But I love watching Barbara Stanwix, So it's hard. Anyways,

1229
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 1: Can we talk a little bit about Lola? Yeah, let's

1230
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 1: talk about Lola. I don't really know what to make

1231
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:42,600
Speaker 1: of her because we only really, we only get to

1232
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 1: see her in a few brief scenes. We learned that

1233
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 1: she's dating this guy, Nino's a ketty who does a

1234
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,880
Speaker 1: piece of work. It's a good character name. I have

1235
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: no friend. He's an asshole. She's in love with him.

1236
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 1: We don't learned her age in the movie, but again,

1237
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 1: according to the screenplay, she's nineteen okay. Uh. Then basically

1238
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:15,440
Speaker 1: Walter gaslights her and coerces her into a brief relationship,

1239
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 1: which seems to work because she kind of like magically

1240
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: forgets all about her suspicions that her stepmother probably killed

1241
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: her father, which she is right about, but because she's

1242
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:37,759
Speaker 1: being manipulated by Walter, the story has her forget about that.

1243
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 1: So I mean that to me, just this just feels

1244
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 1: like another just female character in the movie who's not

1245
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: a fem fatale, but who is wildly underwritten and who

1246
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 1: the story has her make some confusing choices, And again, like,

1247
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 1: I don't want to I'm not blaming her for being

1248
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 1: manipulated and coerced by Walter, but a lot of her

1249
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 1: choices and just kind of the way she was characterized

1250
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 1: didn't track for me. And also because we don't learn

1251
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 1: anything about her, I think I kind of like have

1252
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 1: stopped paying attention around this point in the movie, not essentially,

1253
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: just in the way that that happens when you're sitting

1254
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 1: at home. And I totally like, I don't think you're wrong,

1255
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 1: but I did not read it as him manipulating Lola.

1256
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,320
Speaker 1: I just read it as like creepy, like getting away

1257
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:29,759
Speaker 1: from Phyllis, and like, because all that stuff was revealed

1258
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 1: about Nino, that like he was just moving in that way.

1259
01:13:33,120 --> 01:13:34,760
Speaker 1: But now I'm like, oh, that makes so much more

1260
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 1: sense that he was. He literally says and his voice over. Yeah,

1261
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 1: he was like, I couldn't let her tell anyone else

1262
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 1: about suspicions, so I took her to the beach and

1263
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: I took her for some French frien. He's like basically saying,

1264
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:53,120
Speaker 1: like I hung out with her to distract her, and

1265
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 1: then it seems like she might have developed a crush.

1266
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: It's like like it seems like she develops a crush

1267
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 1: on him, or at very least he is presenting himself

1268
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 1: in a position of authority, and I like he's like

1269
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: not just leveraging his age and his gender, he's also

1270
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:10,720
Speaker 1: leveraging his job over her. He's like, well, I'm an

1271
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 1: insurance guy, so that's like he's gas lighting her in

1272
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 1: the grounds of like well I know what I'm talking about.

1273
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: You're just a kid, Like what do you? What do

1274
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 1: you know? Okay? Then, was Nino sleeping with Phyllis or

1275
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 1: was she manipulating him to like to to sort of

1276
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:27,840
Speaker 1: put a button on this whole murder thing. My read

1277
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:31,519
Speaker 1: was that that relationship might have been a bit more

1278
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 1: like mutually consensual, but because Phillis is characterized as this

1279
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:44,719
Speaker 1: like very textbook from Fatale, that she was manipulating him

1280
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 1: and maybe just she was maybe just like setting up

1281
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:52,200
Speaker 1: a few different fall guys so that she wasn't so culpable.

1282
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:55,640
Speaker 1: But that didn't make sense to me, Like her relationship

1283
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 1: with him. I didn't understand why that was happening. Maybe

1284
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:02,439
Speaker 1: we missed something and maybe like listeners are like frothing

1285
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: right now, they're like it's so hot, but like, yeah,

1286
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 1: I sort of was like I just I was like, oh,

1287
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 1: I guess by the end of a noir you just

1288
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 1: have to find out that everybody secretly knew each other

1289
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 1: the whole time or something like. It just felt very

1290
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:17,880
Speaker 1: like genre e I wasn't totally clear in that either.

1291
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: But also, if this is the blueprint, Like if this

1292
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:24,599
Speaker 1: movie is the blueprint, then this movie created some funked

1293
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:28,720
Speaker 1: up blueprints. You're like, it's kind of a confusing blueprint.

1294
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 1: But I do I mean, Lola, I feel like there's

1295
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:36,000
Speaker 1: she's definitely underwritten, and it sucks because I feel like

1296
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 1: the early scenes with Lola I was kind of like

1297
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 1: gently encouraged by because, as I said, at the beginning,

1298
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 1: I didn't think there was going to be a second

1299
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 1: woman in the movie. So I was like thrilled and

1300
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, There's a also that cutting thing

1301
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 1: where Phillis was like, yeah, and he just loves his

1302
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:57,599
Speaker 1: daughter so much. I was like, Phillis, give it a rest.

1303
01:15:57,680 --> 01:15:59,640
Speaker 1: I assumed that they were talking about a child and so,

1304
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:01,759
Speaker 1: but they were talking about a nineteen year old whatever.

1305
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:05,480
Speaker 1: But I do like that Lola. Like when Lola is introduced.

1306
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,759
Speaker 1: I liked how her character was introduced. She like pushed

1307
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 1: back and like her dad was like, who are you

1308
01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 1: going to see? What are you doing? Blah blah blah,

1309
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 1: like doing kind of the stereotypical controlling father thing, and

1310
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 1: she like lies to his face very calmly. She's like,

1311
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 1: I'm this is what I'm doing. I'm going to this

1312
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: intersection and like goodbye. And I was like, oh, I

1313
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:31,559
Speaker 1: like this character. She's fun. Like she's it's I feel

1314
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 1: like it's unusual, especially in for the first interaction you

1315
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:38,720
Speaker 1: see with a female character, for them to stand up

1316
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,599
Speaker 1: for themselves in some way. But then it's like that slowly.

1317
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,439
Speaker 1: And I also like that she is the person that

1318
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 1: sees through everything that's going on, which makes it more

1319
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 1: disappointing and shitty to see her talked out of what

1320
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 1: she knows is the truth. For the rest of the

1321
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 1: movie and then she disappears. Right, I was rooting for her,

1322
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:01,360
Speaker 1: same justice for Lola, and now she's lost all of

1323
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: her parents and now she's a nineteen year old orphan.

1324
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 1: Like but I guess in a way, she's also presented

1325
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 1: as an obstacle for Walter because she starts having suspicions

1326
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: and he's got to deal with it. So she's under

1327
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 1: characterized and she's presented as an obstacle the way that

1328
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 1: many women are in movies. Right, wouldn't be so cool

1329
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 1: if she like was the one that solved it, right,

1330
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 1: I was like that, you know, like if they just

1331
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 1: did this like spin at the end where she came

1332
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,599
Speaker 1: around and was like, let me tell you, I figured

1333
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:39,559
Speaker 1: it all out, and now I'm going to extore you

1334
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:41,960
Speaker 1: all for something, you know, I would have loved that.

1335
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:44,599
Speaker 1: Or I wish that she had showed up and killed

1336
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 1: Phillis because it's like she and Phillis had such a

1337
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: terrible relationship. Phillis literally killed her mother. They didn't want

1338
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 1: to play Chinese checkers together. Like it would have been

1339
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: cool if Lola came back at the end and like

1340
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 1: killed them both and then was like all right, Zacchetti

1341
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 1: let's go make you a friend or like whatever. But

1342
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 1: instead the only like you know, bow you're sort of

1343
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:06,960
Speaker 1: given on her thing is like, oh and she'll probably

1344
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:11,920
Speaker 1: get to date this asshole again, because Walter tells Zaketti like, hey,

1345
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 1: call Lola back. She likes you. And I was like,

1346
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 1: oh great, what a what a win? I get to

1347
01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 1: date a man with no friends again. Also that whole scene,

1348
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: I was like, he's gonna know that you did it.

1349
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 1: Like the whole scene. I was like, he pops out

1350
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 1: of the bushes and it's like, go hang out with

1351
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 1: Lola and you're like, Wow, you just outed yourself big time.

1352
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 1: They're so bad at planning. I also don't understand how

1353
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:41,800
Speaker 1: what Nef does to kill Mr Dietrichson. I think he

1354
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,080
Speaker 1: strangles him, but like, wouldn't the autopsy show that he

1355
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 1: was strangled and not fell off of a train. So

1356
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 1: like their their plan is just like very I don't know,

1357
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense. Also, Walter's plan to communicate

1358
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 1: with Phyllis, as they're like creating their scheme, is for

1359
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:03,719
Speaker 1: her to go to a shop every day and quote

1360
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 1: be buying things every day at eleven am. And if

1361
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:09,360
Speaker 1: he needs to talk to her that day. He'll just

1362
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:11,840
Speaker 1: like show up when it's convenient for him, because women

1363
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: be shopping. She's to go be shopping all the time

1364
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 1: every day, and then he'll be like and he might

1365
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 1: not even show up. Yeah, And also part of this

1366
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:21,800
Speaker 1: is that he's like, we have to go to this

1367
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 1: shop because we can't be seen talking to each other.

1368
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 1: So his idea is to meet in public where people

1369
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 1: can see them talking to each other, but they're like shopping,

1370
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:35,599
Speaker 1: so they're not really talking to each other, you know. Yeah,

1371
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:39,280
Speaker 1: that's really funny. And also I like those are really

1372
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 1: interesting scenes too, in terms of the sterileness of it

1373
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 1: and like the brightness of those shots and like, you know,

1374
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:47,160
Speaker 1: like we didn't really talk about any of the visuals

1375
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: in the movie, but they're you know anyways whatever, right,

1376
01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:52,439
Speaker 1: right right. I mean that I feel like that is

1377
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 1: like a large portion of why these movies are still

1378
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 1: well regarded as because they look really fucking cool, like

1379
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: they're they're the shadow play and this, and yeah, my

1380
01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:06,879
Speaker 1: favorite line in the movie was when Keys said Papa

1381
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:10,679
Speaker 1: has it all figured out. I jumped in my seat.

1382
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:16,639
Speaker 1: I was like, this guy is weird. I like, speaking

1383
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:19,920
Speaker 1: of Keys, the one part of the movie that I

1384
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,519
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this isn't the worst thing I've ever

1385
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 1: seen is where uh, I think once, maybe even twice,

1386
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:31,720
Speaker 1: Walter tells Keys, which is a colleague of his, but

1387
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 1: they're also like close friends. Walter tells Keys that he

1388
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:37,760
Speaker 1: loves him, and just like a very like we have

1389
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,599
Speaker 1: a close relationship, and it's we're not led to believe

1390
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 1: that it's anything more than platonic, but like, I just

1391
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:47,679
Speaker 1: really enjoyed seeing like a man tell another man that

1392
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 1: he loves him, because that's not something you see very often,

1393
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: and certainly not in this era, where you know, men

1394
01:20:56,040 --> 01:20:59,759
Speaker 1: are conditioned to think that like even a platonic affection

1395
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: towards another man is gross or something. Who knows, But

1396
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, they were friends and they loved

1397
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,880
Speaker 1: each other. Too bad that Walter's the most boring man

1398
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 1: alive and Keys participated in the Red Scare, but you

1399
01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 1: know they were friends. They were friends. Um. The last

1400
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to mention is something that's very typical

1401
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:27,160
Speaker 1: of this era, which is the representation of people of

1402
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:29,960
Speaker 1: color in the movie, which is that they are only

1403
01:21:30,040 --> 01:21:33,960
Speaker 1: seen very fleetingly and always in like service roles like

1404
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:37,599
Speaker 1: train porters and you know, wait staff and and things

1405
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:39,960
Speaker 1: like that. Um, well, there was one character I wrote

1406
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 1: a note being like, there's a character from Inglewood that

1407
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 1: kind of looked like he was in brown face, and

1408
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:46,920
Speaker 1: I was like, what the fund is this? I did

1409
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 1: wonder about that glapis or something in that early scene. Yeah, yeah,

1410
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 1: there was. I was like, oh, this is not good. Yeah,

1411
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 1: hard to say, but representation of people of color is scarce.

1412
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 1: There's always been bad, and then in this era especially.

1413
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:05,720
Speaker 1: I would like to take that on in a in

1414
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:10,200
Speaker 1: a future episode as well. We should continue to pursue

1415
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:14,639
Speaker 1: this conversation for sure. Absolutely. Does anyone have anything else

1416
01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:18,599
Speaker 1: they want to talk about regarding double indemnity? No, when

1417
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:20,639
Speaker 1: are we going to do it? Let's do a double

1418
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: indemnity heist crew and kill someone's shitty husband, good money's

1419
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:30,479
Speaker 1: what are they gonna do? Put us in the electric

1420
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 1: chair and then put it in the newspaper. It wouldn't happen. Yes,

1421
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:38,320
Speaker 1: that will be our claim to fame. Feminist podcasters do

1422
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: the ultimate feminist podcasters get the electric chair for thought

1423
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: crime feminist more like fem fatal in this nice I

1424
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 1: think I think we're going to get the electric chair

1425
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 1: just for that, not that we should be joking about

1426
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 1: how awful sucking? Um, what's it called when the state

1427
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 1: murders you? State murder? Capital coupital punishment, capital punish. This

1428
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:13,639
Speaker 1: movie does pass the PacTel tests, though, yes it does.

1429
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:17,120
Speaker 1: When Lola and Phillis are talking about how they don't

1430
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:20,160
Speaker 1: want to play Chinese checkers with each other, Lola says,

1431
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 1: do you mind if we don't finish this game? It

1432
01:23:22,400 --> 01:23:25,280
Speaker 1: bores me stiff? And then Phillis says, you've got something

1433
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 1: better to do? And I think those are those are

1434
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 1: the only two. That's the only example of an exchange

1435
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:35,920
Speaker 1: between two women. And don't worry they hate each other.

1436
01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it does. That conversation is there

1437
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:41,599
Speaker 1: to establish that they don't like each other, but the

1438
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 1: text itself is like not narratively meaningful. So to me,

1439
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,640
Speaker 1: it's like a barely pass. It's a barely pass. But

1440
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:51,120
Speaker 1: I think it's a funny. It's a funny barely pass

1441
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:54,360
Speaker 1: because it's just a hostile exchange between the only two

1442
01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 1: women in the movie. As far as our nipple scale,

1443
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:01,519
Speaker 1: though on a scale of zero to five nipples based

1444
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:04,760
Speaker 1: on how well the movie fairs when examining it through

1445
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:09,920
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens. I'll give it a half nipple

1446
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:17,040
Speaker 1: for the following reasons that we see a woman have

1447
01:24:17,280 --> 01:24:22,439
Speaker 1: more agency than a lot of women have been able

1448
01:24:22,479 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 1: to have in movies. Of course, that agency is vilified,

1449
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:30,479
Speaker 1: and we are not meant to empathize with this character

1450
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 1: at all, and when instead we are meant to see

1451
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:39,680
Speaker 1: her as an evil temptress, which is how unless you know,

1452
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 1: there are a few examples of like a subversion of

1453
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,120
Speaker 1: the fim fatale trope that you know have happened in

1454
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:49,000
Speaker 1: more recent films, but especially of this era, there was

1455
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 1: no nuance. There was no complexity in general to the

1456
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:57,240
Speaker 1: fim fatale archetype. And um, even though, like we discussed,

1457
01:24:57,280 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 1: there have been maybe some attempts to reclaim the archetype,

1458
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 1: I don't It's not in the text of this movie though. Yeah,

1459
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:10,559
Speaker 1: and it doesn't work for me, especially with the intent

1460
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 1: of the storytellers and villainizing and empowered and sexually liberated

1461
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 1: woman don't like it. I'll give the movie one half nipple,

1462
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:25,560
Speaker 1: and I'll give it to Lola, who deserved more justice.

1463
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 1: For Lola, I guess I'll give it one question mark.

1464
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:33,879
Speaker 1: I do think that this is like the most active

1465
01:25:34,280 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 1: female character that you could find in movies at this time.

1466
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:42,480
Speaker 1: Unfortunately I am, I am a little more pro reclaiming,

1467
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:45,080
Speaker 1: and I think that it has been semi successfully reclaimed

1468
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 1: in more recent neo noir efforts simply by giving uh

1469
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 1: woman who does something bad context and motivation, which is like,

1470
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 1: I feel like, what is really really missing here, especially

1471
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,080
Speaker 1: with the context of knowing what the source material is

1472
01:26:01,200 --> 01:26:04,639
Speaker 1: and how it's like Anita was saying, like this, this

1473
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 1: movie is presenting a reality that we are told existed

1474
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 1: but never did, like no one was ever acting and

1475
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:15,200
Speaker 1: avoid like this, which is are not a thing. But

1476
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 1: I do appreciate how active the villainous woman is throughout.

1477
01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 1: And also I Lola. I mean, she has a strong

1478
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:24,680
Speaker 1: start and then I feel like she's kind of like

1479
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:29,880
Speaker 1: neutered by this story, which I found frustrating and unnecessary. Yeah,

1480
01:26:29,920 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 1: I mean like because of the era it is extremely

1481
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:37,080
Speaker 1: white and straight and and and we didn't really talk

1482
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 1: about this, but the the whole idea of like you're

1483
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 1: kind of told the end at the end that the

1484
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:45,559
Speaker 1: great tragedy of this story is that it turns out

1485
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:49,719
Speaker 1: that Phillis could love after all, and you're like, who

1486
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:53,599
Speaker 1: gives a ship? Like and there's like this last minute

1487
01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:57,240
Speaker 1: production code style like the redemptive power of a love

1488
01:26:57,320 --> 01:26:59,719
Speaker 1: between a man and a woman and blah blah blah.

1489
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 1: Like it's just I guess I'm bumping it down to

1490
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 1: a half nipple, and I'm giving that half nipple to

1491
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:09,200
Speaker 1: the line. Papa has it all figured out, beautiful, Anita,

1492
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:11,799
Speaker 1: how about you. I don't think I can add anything

1493
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:14,120
Speaker 1: to what y'all said, So I'm just gonna piggyback on that.

1494
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:17,640
Speaker 1: But I just, um, I'm going to give my If

1495
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give my rating to somebody, my non existent rating,

1496
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:22,760
Speaker 1: it's going to be to the line. I hope there

1497
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 1: aren't any pigeons shooting on you while your son bathing,

1498
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 1: because I can't go out for that. Oh it, zero

1499
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:33,479
Speaker 1: nipples is that way you're giving it? No, I'm I'm

1500
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 1: just gonna I think the half nipple is a good one. Okay.

1501
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 1: I agree with what both of you said. Nice, well, Anita,

1502
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:43,080
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us and having me.

1503
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 1: Thank you come back any time. Tell us where people

1504
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:50,040
Speaker 1: can follow you on social media? Plug anything you would

1505
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 1: like to plug. Yeah, so you can follow me on

1506
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:57,200
Speaker 1: the social media's at Anita Sarkisian. And one of the

1507
01:27:57,240 --> 01:28:00,360
Speaker 1: things I do is I run a emotional sport outline

1508
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:02,400
Speaker 1: for people who make or play games. It's called the

1509
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:05,640
Speaker 1: Games and Online Harassment Hotline. So if you need a

1510
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:07,720
Speaker 1: little emotional sport and you live in the US, you

1511
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 1: can text us. You can learn more at games hotline

1512
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:14,599
Speaker 1: dot org. Our agents are trained in understanding like internet

1513
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:18,240
Speaker 1: culture and gaming culture and online harassment as well. So

1514
01:28:18,320 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 1: if you're you know, even if you don't play games

1515
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 1: and you need a little bit of help around some

1516
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,519
Speaker 1: of this stuff, we're here for you. So games hotline

1517
01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:26,479
Speaker 1: dot org. We're also in the middle of our end

1518
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:29,120
Speaker 1: of your fundraising campaign for the hotline and everything else

1519
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 1: that feminist frequency does to try to end abuse in

1520
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:33,320
Speaker 1: the video game industry. So if you want to pitch

1521
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 1: in a couple of bucks to that, feel free in

1522
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:40,519
Speaker 1: addition to your Patreon support of the Bechtel Cast. Right,

1523
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:44,639
Speaker 1: because we all we just share. We we've got to share.

1524
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 1: There's no scarcity here, so um or it's all scarce

1525
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: you don't one or the other, right, um So, yeah,

1526
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:54,280
Speaker 1: you can learn more at games outline dot org. You

1527
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 1: can check me out at Nicha Sarkis and on all

1528
01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:00,400
Speaker 1: the things. Oh also my podcast radio. If you like this,

1529
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:04,960
Speaker 1: you'll like what you do. Yeah, give that a listen, everybody,

1530
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 1: and you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at

1531
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:11,680
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast and speaking of that, Patreon ak Matreon you

1532
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,759
Speaker 1: can find that at patreon dot com slash becktel Cast.

1533
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 1: You get to bonus episodes every month, plus access to

1534
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:23,800
Speaker 1: all of the previously released bonus episodes, of which there

1535
01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:29,160
Speaker 1: are over one hundred. So check it out. Look at them.

1536
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:32,920
Speaker 1: Go really putting in the time. You better join and

1537
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:36,559
Speaker 1: if you desire any if you have any merch related needs,

1538
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:38,160
Speaker 1: we've got you there too. You can go to t

1539
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:42,000
Speaker 1: public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast and get all

1540
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 1: of your oh it's it's guess within season right now,

1541
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,680
Speaker 1: baby grad there you go get your baby Grinch t

1542
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:52,720
Speaker 1: shirts and I guess now is the time where we

1543
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:56,640
Speaker 1: shoot each other. Let's shoot each other and kiss. No, no,

1544
01:29:56,800 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 1: you you put you push us off a train? Oh

1545
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 1: so right? Sorry, sorry, we definitely but not really. We're

1546
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:05,639
Speaker 1: going to just pretend. Yeah, I mean it's a pretty

1547
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 1: good mystery, right, I mean, I know we're done talking

1548
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:09,360
Speaker 1: about it. But I'm like, that's a pretty good scheme.

1549
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:12,679
Speaker 1: I was like, cool, I'm on board with this. Yeah,

1550
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 1: except that they executed badly the execution. The idea was good.

1551
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:19,920
Speaker 1: I maintained the idea was good. The execution they clearly

1552
01:30:19,920 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 1: were ill equipped. Yeah for sure. All right, Well, thanks

1553
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:24,640
Speaker 1: so much for having me. It's a pleasure talking with

1554
01:30:24,640 --> 01:30:29,920
Speaker 1: both of you. The pleasures all ours. Bye bye, bye bye.