WEBVTT - Locker Room Talk with Melissa Ludtke 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.280 Welcome to Good Game, where we're rereading this Mirror and 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.400 Fader deep dive on Paige Becker's for a second time. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.080 Miron's one of the best, and she's done it again. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:10.840 On today's show, we're going to talk. 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:13.080 To award winning journalist Melissa Ludkey about her new book, 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:15.760 Locker Room Talk, A Woman Struggled to get inside, and 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.439 how she won her lawsuit against Major League Baseball to 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.880 earn the right to locker room access. Plus WNBA Playoffs, 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.200 close Talkers, and more. It's all coming up right after 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:32.640 this welcome back slices. Meche has your need to note today, 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.760 Take it away, Mesh. 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.080 The Connecticut Sun in Minnesota Lynks meet tonight in a winner, 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.000 go home Game five to determine who will face off 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.159 against the New York Liberty in the WNBA Finals. The 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:47.960 Connecticut son are looking to make it back to the 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.360 finals for the second time in three years, while the 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.800 Links are looking for their first finals appearance since winning 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.800 it All in twenty seventeen. In other basketball news, sisters 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.600 Isabelle and Dory Harrison are both gonna hoop in the 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.760 upcoming season of Athletes Unlimited Basketball in Nashville Tennessee. And 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.039 it's even cooler because that's where they grew up. Talk 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.800 about a full circle moment with your pal. I don't 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:10.680 actually know if they like each other as siblings. I 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:12.600 don't know nothing about that. I'm an only child. That 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.360 ain't my business. But Izzy plays in the WNBA for 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.800 the Chicago Sky and has been a part of AU 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.319 since the league's inaugural twenty twenty two season, while Dorry made. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:23.880 Her AU debut last year. 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.679 The twenty four game AU season will run from February 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:31.200 fifth through March second at the Nashville Municipal Auditorium. In 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.520 hockey news, GG Marvin is retiring after a long career 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:39.240 that included three Olympics, seven World Championship appearances in one 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.120 Walter Cup Finals run. The thirty seven year old was 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.360 a member of the US Olympic team that won gold 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.560 in twenty eighteen, ending a nearly two decade gold medal 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.600 drought during which Canada topped the podium four straight times. 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.920 Marvin initially retired from the national team in twenty twenty one, 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.000 but she returned to competitive hockey last year in order 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.960 to play for Boston in the inaugural PWHL season. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:01.320 P WHL. 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.800 Boston went on to make the Walter Cup Finals, losing 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.640 to Minnesota in a decisive game five. Thanks so much 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.440 for everything, Gigi. We're gonna Misha. And in tennis, the 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.120 tournaments keep on coming. The Wuhan Open got started yesterday 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.520 at the Optics Valley International Tennis Center. The tournament features 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.160 a stacked field including Coco Golf, who just won the 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.400 China Open, and Arena Sabalanka, the number one seed in 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.840 the tournament and the number two rink player in the world. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.280 World number one IGOs Viantik withdrew from the tournament after 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.480 splitting with her coach of three seasons at the end 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.280 of last week. Arena Sabalanka took home the trophy at 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.440 the last iteration of the contest way back in twenty nineteen, 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.239 beating American Alison Risk in three sets. Sabalanka was also 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.560 the champion twenty eighteen. And we'll look to three pte. 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.320 Thanks Mesh, we got to take another break. Well we 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.440 come back. Melissa Ludkey. 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.440 She's an award winning journalist who in nineteen seventy eight 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:01.280 won a law suit for the right to be allowed 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:05.400 in Major League Baseball locker rooms. She's worked for ABC Sports, Sports, Illustrated, 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.919 Time Magazine, CBS News, and spent thirteen years as a 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.480 writer and editor for The Niemen Reports, magazine of Harvard 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.600 University's Nieman Foundation for Journalism. This year, she released a 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.480 new book, Locker Room Talk, A woman Struggle to get inside. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.440 She's a Wellesley alum, like producer Alex. Will have to 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.920 let them chat about that later. It's Melissa Lutkey. What's up, Melissa. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:23.880 Thanks for joining us. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.680 Hey, that's the best news I've heard recently. Alex. I'll 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:29.800 just ask you at some point if we do our 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:30.960 reunion together. 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.920 There we go, Melissa, This conversation in your book is 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.920 actually especially relevant now. The WNBA doesn't currently allow media 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:40.680 access in the locker room. That was the change made 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:42.920 a few years ago, and just last week the NFLP 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.720 announced publicly that they've been working to follow suit, spending 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:47.760 the last three years and discussions to try to move 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.320 media interviews out of locker rooms. Now, before we get 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.720 into the modern conversations about that space and access, I 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:55.960 want to go back to your particular fight and how 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.000 it all fits in. So let's start with how you 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.760 got into sports reboarding and why you felt confident and 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.160 comfortable pursuing the job despite so few women and what 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.160 was often a really toxic environment at that time. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.560 Sarah, I don't think I understood the toxicity the environment. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.720 What drove me to get into it was absolute love 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.880 of sports and a knowledge and a love of baseball 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.719 that had been passed down to me from my mom. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.479 When I did graduate from Wellesley College in nineteen seventy three, 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.839 I really had no plan. I'd majored in art history, 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.839 which I loved studying, but I'd worked in an art 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.839 gallery and that had maybe decided that that was not 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.400 the venue for me to be happy in a job, 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.040 and so I began to think about the other passions 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.919 that drove me. One of them was teaching, but the 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.599 other really was sports. I didn't know it at the time, 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.040 but I had an exceptional girlhood in the sense that 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.120 I had the opportunity to play team sports. In the 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.839 nineteen fifty and sixties, when you're growing up, you think 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.520 everyone is doing what you're doing. You just don't have 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.680 a wider perspective. But I've come to learn over the 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.960 years and appreciate even more the opportunities I had. So 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.680 not only could I talk sports, my mother teaching me baseball, 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.719 my dad taking me along at football games. Basketball was 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.400 something we watched in our house. I played basketball. I 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:30.200 really had a grounding in it that I was once 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.520 told And this is really the spur to me moving 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.800 into sports media. After having the opportunity to sit at 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:41.640 a dinner table with Frank Gifford, who was then at 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.320 ABC Sports, he'd just become one of the opening trio 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.640 on Monday Night Football with Dandy, Don Meredith and Howard Cosell. 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.599 So he was a very well known sports broadcaster. And 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.880 after we had talked across a dining room table for 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.680 I don't know, maybe an hour and a half with 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:05.279 just sports, sports, sports, he told me, you know that 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.120 for a girl, I knew a lot about sports, and 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.200 I thought, wow, I mean, you know, that was a 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.080 huge compliment, I thought, coming from him, And he followed 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:19.080 it up with an invitation that if I was in 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.880 New York, he would be happy to show me around 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.680 ABC Sports and introduce me to the people who worked there. 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.400 So when I went to dinner that night, I had 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.159 no intention of going to New York City, But as 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.200 I walked home from that dinner, I was already planning 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.680 a trip, it would take a couple of weeks to 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:43.000 pull it together, and in those intervening weeks, Sarah, you 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.479 can't make this up. Billy Jean King played Bobby Riggs 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.880 at the Houston Astrodome in that Battle of the Sexes, which, 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.920 in many ways, coming on the heels of the passage 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:58.440 of Title nine, really began to change everything. And it 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.120 was at that time that I did take my father's 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.520 car drive down to New York, have a chance for 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.520 Frank to show me around. And the last thing I'll 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.840 say is that Frank left me that afternoon in the 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.800 office of the only woman sports producer at ABC Sports. 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:19.440 She then invited me to stay an extra couple days. 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.239 They were going to be doing a special on women 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.120 in sports and evening special. And when I said yes 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.200 and hung out for three more days with them, Billy 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:35.280 Jean King walked up the stairs into that studio and Sarah, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.720 I had no idea how, but I knew at that 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.480 moment that I was going to figure out a way 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:41.920 to get into sports media. 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.520 Gosh, it sounds like truly the stars aligned to bring 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.920 you into the space. It also helps me confirm my 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:51.920 pre existing theory that Billy Jing King is the forrest 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.720 Gump of women in sports that at any time, in 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.040 any place, someone will tell a story, and Billy jan 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:58.000 King was always there. 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.160 I love that she played role in your story too. 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.600 So it's the mid seventies, you're reporting for Sports Illustrated. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.400 You're the only woman assigned full time to Major League Baseball. 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.320 The Yankees give you a credential for the final games 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.960 of the regular season in nineteen seventy seven. What were 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.880 those first few games, like, how were you received by 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:20.040 players and managers and other media. 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.640 Well, the reason that they gave me those two credentials, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.760 and you're right, the very last two games of the 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:31.080 nineteen seventy seven season, Mickey Morribido, the very young PR, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.080 first year PR person for the Yankees, gave me the 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:39.760 clubhouse passes. Now, let's be sure that we understand that 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:45.120 that was after two years of me gradually gradually earning 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:49.240 the trust both of Mickey but also the players being 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.000 up at that ballg park game after game after game, 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:58.240 having no access whatsoever, and Mickey coming to understand by 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.880 watching the frustrations that I would have with my reporting, 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:06.520 first opening up the manager's office for me after the games, 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.360 and then those last two games, deciding, for whatever reason, 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.719 leaving those two passes for me. And when I went 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.600 out on the field, I said, Mickey, you left these passes. 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.480 Did you really mean to He said yes, He says, 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:22.880 you certainly earned the right to do this, use them 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.079 how you want. And I think you said that knowing 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:30.000 me very well. By that point, I was really understanding 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.880 that to make this work I had to be a gradualist. 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:38.400 This wasn't banging down a door, It wasn't demanding. It 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.439 was being the only woman up there, and that meant 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:44.320 trying to get along with the men, trying not to 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:49.080 upset them in the process of making forward progress for me. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.520 So the fact that Micky recognized that and gave me 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:57.080 the two passes, Sarah, I only used them before the game, which, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.000 for some mysterious reason, i'd alway been kept out of 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:05.679 the clubhouse. Then too, the commissioner contended that the reason 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.719 for me being out of the clubhouse was to protect 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.480 the sexual privacy of players. Well before the game started, 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.040 between batting practice and the game, not one player changed 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.599 out of his uniform. So I went into the clubhouse 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.559 during that period. For those two games, I didn't need 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.560 to be there like a daily reporter might for the 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:32.840 game coverage afterwards. And so again, as a gradualist, you know, 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.160 I have to frankly say it worked fine. The players 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.520 knew me, they were prepared by Mickey that I had 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.400 the pass, and things worked out well well enough. I 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:48.640 might add that not one baseball reporter wrote about me 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.760 being in the locker room during those two games, or 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.800 during the American League Championship series, in which I was 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.520 also in the locker room, which gave me a sense 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.480 that maybe my gradualist kind of mother may I approach 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.600 had actually worked. So when we come to that nineteen 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.800 seventy seven World Series, I have a sense, why wouldn't 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.040 I have a sense at that point that maybe we're 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:17.640 going to make this work. 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.560 Throughout those games, you only went in before the game, 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:21.240 Yes you didn't. 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.280 No, that is not the case. I'm sorry I did that. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.720 Just those two games. And then during the American League 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.880 Championship I was in the locker room both before games 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:31.680 as well as. 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:35.040 After, and no incidents, no one complaining. 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.800 No incidents. I wasn't thrown out. I wouldn't say that 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.520 there were no incidents. I mean there were players who 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:45.320 very much voiced their disapproval of my presence among them. 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:49.120 But I came. I understood from the very beginning that 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.679 this was their clubhouse, this was their locker room, and 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.280 if something egregious happened, I had a sense that I 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:01.360 would understand a redline and if a player lost, then 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.080 I would either say or do something or leave. And 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.560 you know, share with Mickey my experience. But none of 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.440 that happened. Yes, were their jokes made. Yes, were there 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.800 are things that were probably said of me at the 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:19.000 time that were uncomfortable to year, Yes, but you know 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.839 that was part of what I knew would happen. I mean, 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.120 I just knew it. So your roll with it. 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.200 So it ends up happening that the first game of 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.760 the nineteen seventy seven World Series arrives, the Los Angeles 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.720 Dodgers actually had a vote during which the players approved 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:35.720 your presence in the locker room and agreed with the 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:37.360 Yankees that it was fine that you were in there, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.320 but the Commissioner of Baseball, Booie Kune, banned you from 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.880 the locker room because of your gender. Take us to 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.360 that day, Like you said, at this point, you've arrived 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.400 at the World Series, believing that the barrier has been broken, 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.120 and now you're a part of the crew that goes 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.040 in the locker room. How do you find out that 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.400 this is a problem and that Booie has stepped in? 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:58.160 Yeah, I mean the Dodgers were in town. I recognized 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.160 right away that they had never had a woman and 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.040 covering them. So it was actually by me going to 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.560 them what I thought of as playing a sort of 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.400 courtesy call, explaining to them that I had a pass 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.400 that said I had entrance to the clubhouse, telling them 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.319 about my experiences with the Yankees. I hoped that that 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.520 would ease the way for them to understand that I 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.920 might be coming into their clubhouse as well. It was 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.520 because of the conversation that I'm kind of relaying to 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.280 you at this point, with those elements in it that 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.400 I had with their player Rep. Tommy John, that that 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.760 vote was taken. And right before the first game, Tommy 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.120 John came out to meet me, as he said he would, 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.000 told me that it was a majority of players that 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.079 they understood and that it was fine with them for 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:52.960 me to be in there, And so that was how 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:57.120 I walked away from him. He then called me back however, 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.160 and asked me another favor, and that was to let 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:06.520 their PR people know that this might happen. And it 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:11.600 was that going my willingness to convey that message to 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.679 the PR people on behalf of Tommy and the team 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.600 that sort of sealed my fate, which I was informed 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.680 of five innings later. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.600 So their PR person went to the commissioner, presumably and 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.240 maybe decided that that would be the person that they 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.360 would have to do their dirty work. Perhaps the PR 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.120 person for the Dodgers was the one who wanted it. 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.920 Who knows, At the very least they managed to take 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.440 it to a commissioner who for sure wanted to prevent you. 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.640 So your five innings into the game, and who approaches 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.360 you and how soon after that game did you decide 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:46.520 that you were going to take up a fight. 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.880 During the fifth inning, I was sitting in the overflow 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.920 press box that was in the grand stands. Sports Illustrated 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.480 had four people assigned to the game. Only one of 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.480 them was in the main press box. So I called 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.800 over a very small loud speaker in our press box 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.200 to report to the main press box, and through a 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.280 series of conversations I had none of them directly with 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.440 the commissioner, even though I asked to speak with him directly, 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:20.280 since it was his edict, but I refused permission to 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.480 do that. The bottom line was that I was told 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.000 that it didn't matter if the Yankees gave permission. It 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:29.880 didn't matter that the Dodgers gave permission. It did not 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.120 matter that the Baseball Writers had given me permission by 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:38.160 issuing me that press credential. The only person in Baseball 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.680 who could give me permission was the commissioner, and he 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.320 would not He would take that permission away for the 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.840 entire series. And then added to that, I was told 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.840 permission would be not granted forever. 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.640 He was very young, My goodness, a lifetime ban of sorts. 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.520 Well, he was young, and it rose. Yeah, I guess so. 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.680 But I guess the difference is that if you live 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:10.080 long enough as I have my passes, that clubhouse pass 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.000 and my pass for the series is in the Hall 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:13.440 of Fame. 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.080 That's right, that's right. You've got one up on it 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:17.080 so far. 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:22.080 Okay, So in this moment, this feels very extreme. Not 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.320 only are we rejecting you right now, but don't bother 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.240 coming back later to ask again. You decide to file 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.720 a lawsuit, and I wonder what the response to the 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.880 lawsuit was. Let's start with from colleagues, your editor, or 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.280 your bosses. What kind of support or criticism did you get? 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.880 Well, it was actually my bosses. It was actually Time 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.160 Incorporated who came to me and asked if I would 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.440 be in a plaintiff in a lawsuit they would file 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.920 at the Southern District Court of Manhattan. This only came 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.240 about after several weeks. It might have even been two 0:16:56.280 --> 0:17:00.440 months of negotiations that had gone on between the baseball 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.280 editor and the lawyer at Sports Illustrated and the commissioner 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:08.120 and his lawyer, And it was only toward the beginning 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:12.280 of December, I believe, when they realized that there was 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:17.600 no progress being made. Baseball believe that quote unquote, separate 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.600 accommodations would for me would be equal to what the 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.320 men had by interviewing the players in the clubhouse. We 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:30.760 disagreed fundamentally, separate would not be equal, and we demanded 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.600 equal access. There was no meeting of the minds to 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.480 be had. And it was at that point that Time 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:41.280 Ink made the decision Time Incorporated to file this lawsuit, 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.640 and they came to me and asked if I would 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.359 be the named plaintiff in the lawsuit. 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.360 As owners of Sports Illustrated, Time Inc. Which is where 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:50.600 we were. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:55.880 Owners of Sports Illustrated. They had been sued a Time 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:00.280 Incorporated by their own women for gender discrimination and this 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:05.119 is across the company in the early nineteen seventies, and 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:10.240 had signed a conciliation agreement to end that legal action 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:15.800 by agreeing that from then that point out there would 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:21.520 be gender equality in assignments, etc. Now that wasn't instantly 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:26.760 something that happened, but I always believed that it was 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.960 because that conciliation agreement existed, that there was the pressure 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.080 through the legal department and the rest to make this happen. 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.840 They came to me, asked me, And you know, Sarah, 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.520 I was twenty six at the time. I started covering 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.240 baseball when I was twenty four, I was very naive 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.880 when I said yes, because I saw it through one 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.199 lens and one lens only. I wanted to do a 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:56.639 job I absolutely loved. I felt I was just really 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.640 getting to the point of learning how to do it. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:05.080 Two years of really putting in my time at the ballparks, 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.560 I'd already written a few baseball stories by then I 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.520 just wanted to keep doing this. I loved it, and 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.760 I felt there was no reason for me not to 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.200 be able to do it. So I looked at it 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:21.560 totally as almost an employment lawsuit, But little did I 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.920 understand its cultural touchstones. 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.840 Yeah, it's nice, whether they're hand forced or not, that 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.360 you then felt the support legally and es of your 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.520 bosses and your company. Can you sum up the personal 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:38.919 price that you paid by being the face of the 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:40.440 of the change of that lawsuit. 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.840 I can try to sum it up. I certainly talk 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.560 about it in my in writing this book, and I 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.400 felt in writing the book that I had to be 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.320 incredibly well. I had to just be honest. I had 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.600 to be honest about the toll that being the target 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.879 of a lot of criticism of a person that I 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:09.280 didn't even see in myself. I was challenged, My morality 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.600 was challenged for wanting to do this. I was sexually 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:20.119 objectified in many ways, certainly not the loud misogyny that 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.800 you see on social media, because you had the civilizing 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.679 impact of the men had to have their bylines and 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.679 often their pictures on the top of the columns. But 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:36.760 to me it still felt harsh. It felt crude, it 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:41.520 felt demeaning. I didn't handle it well. So I guess 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.160 to add to the summation, I would say I made 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:48.360 some terrible decisions in my life in some ways as 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:55.000 a response to feeling very alone and targeted, perhaps to 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.800 some extent for being a single woman, you know, with 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:03.640 blonde hair, I was somewhat slim, so I think people 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:09.000 made a lot of assumptions about me, and the implications 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.400 were that I was there really to wanting to date 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.840 the ballplayers and to see them naked in their locker room. 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.240 So those were essentially the implications. So what I did 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.920 is I somewhat ran for cover. There was a sports 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.680 journalist I met a week after my lawsuit was filed, 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.600 and within three weeks he had asked me to marry him, 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.159 and I just lost my mind at that point and 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:38.920 I said I would. And it was a very bad 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.840 decision in my life that of course ended up with 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.760 a divorce several years later. But it was a very 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.919 very unhappy marriage and a very very wrong decision for 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.959 me to have made in the midst of what was 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.480 happening to me as part of this lawsuit. 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.960 Feels like protection though, or safety protection against rumors that 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:04.520 you're after something else, safety against accusations, and yeah, so it. 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.879 Was a safe harbor. You're right, there's a notion that 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:08.119 it would be a safe harbor. 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:08.640 Right. 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.240 What were your feelings after you won the lawsuit? 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:18.480 Relief? Relief that I felt like a year of coverage 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:22.480 about it might finally end. That was wrong. In fact, 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.520 it went into the next season, and certainly we've seen 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:33.240 indications of this same issues of women just in covering baseball, 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:38.359 incidents in locker room, sexual harassment, etc. Play out even 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.520 up till now. So you know, the victory in court 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:46.880 felt very good. I think I felt at the time, 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:52.439 again naively, that victory and court would lead to a 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:57.560 change in attitudes. I came to understand as I moved 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.920 through those decades, and certainly by the time I started 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.320 writing this book maybe in the last five, six, seven years, 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:09.280 that that change in attitude took takes a lot longer, 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.639 And in fact, I'd argue that we haven't quite gotten 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:15.040 to where I might have wished we'd gotten, even nearly 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:16.040 fifty years later. 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.120