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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game, where we're rereading this Mirror and

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Speaker 1: Fader deep dive on Paige Becker's for a second time.

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Speaker 2: Miron's one of the best, and she's done it again.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, we're going to talk.

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Speaker 1: To award winning journalist Melissa Ludkey about her new book,

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Speaker 1: Locker Room Talk, A Woman Struggled to get inside, and

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Speaker 1: how she won her lawsuit against Major League Baseball to

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Speaker 1: earn the right to locker room access. Plus WNBA Playoffs,

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Speaker 1: close Talkers, and more. It's all coming up right after

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Speaker 1: this welcome back slices. Meche has your need to note today,

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Speaker 1: Take it away, Mesh.

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Speaker 3: The Connecticut Sun in Minnesota Lynks meet tonight in a winner,

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Speaker 3: go home Game five to determine who will face off

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Speaker 3: against the New York Liberty in the WNBA Finals. The

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Speaker 3: Connecticut son are looking to make it back to the

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Speaker 3: finals for the second time in three years, while the

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Speaker 3: Links are looking for their first finals appearance since winning

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Speaker 3: it All in twenty seventeen. In other basketball news, sisters

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Speaker 3: Isabelle and Dory Harrison are both gonna hoop in the

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Speaker 3: upcoming season of Athletes Unlimited Basketball in Nashville Tennessee. And

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Speaker 3: it's even cooler because that's where they grew up. Talk

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Speaker 3: about a full circle moment with your pal. I don't

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Speaker 3: actually know if they like each other as siblings. I

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Speaker 3: don't know nothing about that. I'm an only child. That

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Speaker 3: ain't my business. But Izzy plays in the WNBA for

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Speaker 3: the Chicago Sky and has been a part of AU

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Speaker 3: since the league's inaugural twenty twenty two season, while Dorry made.

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Speaker 2: Her AU debut last year.

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Speaker 3: The twenty four game AU season will run from February

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Speaker 3: fifth through March second at the Nashville Municipal Auditorium. In

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Speaker 3: hockey news, GG Marvin is retiring after a long career

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Speaker 3: that included three Olympics, seven World Championship appearances in one

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Speaker 3: Walter Cup Finals run. The thirty seven year old was

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Speaker 3: a member of the US Olympic team that won gold

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Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen, ending a nearly two decade gold medal

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Speaker 3: drought during which Canada topped the podium four straight times.

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Speaker 3: Marvin initially retired from the national team in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 3: but she returned to competitive hockey last year in order

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Speaker 3: to play for Boston in the inaugural PWHL season.

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Speaker 2: P WHL.

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Speaker 3: Boston went on to make the Walter Cup Finals, losing

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Speaker 3: to Minnesota in a decisive game five. Thanks so much

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Speaker 3: for everything, Gigi. We're gonna Misha. And in tennis, the

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Speaker 3: tournaments keep on coming. The Wuhan Open got started yesterday

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Speaker 3: at the Optics Valley International Tennis Center. The tournament features

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Speaker 3: a stacked field including Coco Golf, who just won the

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Speaker 3: China Open, and Arena Sabalanka, the number one seed in

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Speaker 3: the tournament and the number two rink player in the world.

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Speaker 3: World number one IGOs Viantik withdrew from the tournament after

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Speaker 3: splitting with her coach of three seasons at the end

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Speaker 3: of last week. Arena Sabalanka took home the trophy at

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Speaker 3: the last iteration of the contest way back in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 3: beating American Alison Risk in three sets. Sabalanka was also

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Speaker 3: the champion twenty eighteen. And we'll look to three pte.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Mesh, we got to take another break. Well we

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Speaker 2: come back. Melissa Ludkey.

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Speaker 1: She's an award winning journalist who in nineteen seventy eight

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Speaker 1: won a law suit for the right to be allowed

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Speaker 1: in Major League Baseball locker rooms. She's worked for ABC Sports, Sports, Illustrated,

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Speaker 1: Time Magazine, CBS News, and spent thirteen years as a

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Speaker 1: writer and editor for The Niemen Reports, magazine of Harvard

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Speaker 1: University's Nieman Foundation for Journalism. This year, she released a

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Speaker 1: new book, Locker Room Talk, A woman Struggle to get inside.

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Speaker 1: She's a Wellesley alum, like producer Alex. Will have to

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Speaker 1: let them chat about that later. It's Melissa Lutkey. What's up, Melissa.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 4: Hey, that's the best news I've heard recently. Alex. I'll

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Speaker 4: just ask you at some point if we do our

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Speaker 4: reunion together.

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Speaker 1: There we go, Melissa, This conversation in your book is

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Speaker 1: actually especially relevant now. The WNBA doesn't currently allow media

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Speaker 1: access in the locker room. That was the change made

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, and just last week the NFLP

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Speaker 1: announced publicly that they've been working to follow suit, spending

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Speaker 1: the last three years and discussions to try to move

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Speaker 1: media interviews out of locker rooms. Now, before we get

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Speaker 1: into the modern conversations about that space and access, I

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Speaker 1: want to go back to your particular fight and how

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Speaker 1: it all fits in. So let's start with how you

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Speaker 1: got into sports reboarding and why you felt confident and

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Speaker 1: comfortable pursuing the job despite so few women and what

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Speaker 1: was often a really toxic environment at that time.

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Speaker 4: Sarah, I don't think I understood the toxicity the environment.

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Speaker 4: What drove me to get into it was absolute love

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Speaker 4: of sports and a knowledge and a love of baseball

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Speaker 4: that had been passed down to me from my mom.

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Speaker 4: When I did graduate from Wellesley College in nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 4: I really had no plan. I'd majored in art history,

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Speaker 4: which I loved studying, but I'd worked in an art

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Speaker 4: gallery and that had maybe decided that that was not

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Speaker 4: the venue for me to be happy in a job,

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Speaker 4: and so I began to think about the other passions

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Speaker 4: that drove me. One of them was teaching, but the

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Speaker 4: other really was sports. I didn't know it at the time,

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Speaker 4: but I had an exceptional girlhood in the sense that

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Speaker 4: I had the opportunity to play team sports. In the

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Speaker 4: nineteen fifty and sixties, when you're growing up, you think

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Speaker 4: everyone is doing what you're doing. You just don't have

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Speaker 4: a wider perspective. But I've come to learn over the

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Speaker 4: years and appreciate even more the opportunities I had. So

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Speaker 4: not only could I talk sports, my mother teaching me baseball,

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Speaker 4: my dad taking me along at football games. Basketball was

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Speaker 4: something we watched in our house. I played basketball. I

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Speaker 4: really had a grounding in it that I was once

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Speaker 4: told And this is really the spur to me moving

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Speaker 4: into sports media. After having the opportunity to sit at

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Speaker 4: a dinner table with Frank Gifford, who was then at

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Speaker 4: ABC Sports, he'd just become one of the opening trio

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Speaker 4: on Monday Night Football with Dandy, Don Meredith and Howard Cosell.

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Speaker 4: So he was a very well known sports broadcaster. And

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Speaker 4: after we had talked across a dining room table for

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Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe an hour and a half with

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Speaker 4: just sports, sports, sports, he told me, you know that

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Speaker 4: for a girl, I knew a lot about sports, and

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Speaker 4: I thought, wow, I mean, you know, that was a

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Speaker 4: huge compliment, I thought, coming from him, And he followed

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Speaker 4: it up with an invitation that if I was in

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Speaker 4: New York, he would be happy to show me around

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Speaker 4: ABC Sports and introduce me to the people who worked there.

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Speaker 4: So when I went to dinner that night, I had

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Speaker 4: no intention of going to New York City, But as

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Speaker 4: I walked home from that dinner, I was already planning

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Speaker 4: a trip, it would take a couple of weeks to

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Speaker 4: pull it together, and in those intervening weeks, Sarah, you

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Speaker 4: can't make this up. Billy Jean King played Bobby Riggs

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Speaker 4: at the Houston Astrodome in that Battle of the Sexes, which,

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Speaker 4: in many ways, coming on the heels of the passage

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Speaker 4: of Title nine, really began to change everything. And it

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Speaker 4: was at that time that I did take my father's

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Speaker 4: car drive down to New York, have a chance for

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Speaker 4: Frank to show me around. And the last thing I'll

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Speaker 4: say is that Frank left me that afternoon in the

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Speaker 4: office of the only woman sports producer at ABC Sports.

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Speaker 4: She then invited me to stay an extra couple days.

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Speaker 4: They were going to be doing a special on women

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Speaker 4: in sports and evening special. And when I said yes

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Speaker 4: and hung out for three more days with them, Billy

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Speaker 4: Jean King walked up the stairs into that studio and Sarah,

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Speaker 4: I had no idea how, but I knew at that

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Speaker 4: moment that I was going to figure out a way

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Speaker 4: to get into sports media.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, it sounds like truly the stars aligned to bring

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Speaker 1: you into the space. It also helps me confirm my

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Speaker 1: pre existing theory that Billy Jing King is the forrest

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Speaker 1: Gump of women in sports that at any time, in

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Speaker 1: any place, someone will tell a story, and Billy jan

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Speaker 1: King was always there.

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Speaker 2: I love that she played role in your story too.

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Speaker 1: So it's the mid seventies, you're reporting for Sports Illustrated.

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Speaker 1: You're the only woman assigned full time to Major League Baseball.

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Speaker 1: The Yankees give you a credential for the final games

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Speaker 1: of the regular season in nineteen seventy seven. What were

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Speaker 1: those first few games, like, how were you received by

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Speaker 1: players and managers and other media.

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Speaker 4: Well, the reason that they gave me those two credentials,

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Speaker 4: and you're right, the very last two games of the

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy seven season, Mickey Morribido, the very young PR,

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Speaker 4: first year PR person for the Yankees, gave me the

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Speaker 4: clubhouse passes. Now, let's be sure that we understand that

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Speaker 4: that was after two years of me gradually gradually earning

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Speaker 4: the trust both of Mickey but also the players being

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Speaker 4: up at that ballg park game after game after game,

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Speaker 4: having no access whatsoever, and Mickey coming to understand by

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Speaker 4: watching the frustrations that I would have with my reporting,

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Speaker 4: first opening up the manager's office for me after the games,

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Speaker 4: and then those last two games, deciding, for whatever reason,

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Speaker 4: leaving those two passes for me. And when I went

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Speaker 4: out on the field, I said, Mickey, you left these passes.

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Speaker 4: Did you really mean to He said yes, He says,

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Speaker 4: you certainly earned the right to do this, use them

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Speaker 4: how you want. And I think you said that knowing

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Speaker 4: me very well. By that point, I was really understanding

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Speaker 4: that to make this work I had to be a gradualist.

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Speaker 4: This wasn't banging down a door, It wasn't demanding. It

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Speaker 4: was being the only woman up there, and that meant

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Speaker 4: trying to get along with the men, trying not to

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Speaker 4: upset them in the process of making forward progress for me.

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Speaker 4: So the fact that Micky recognized that and gave me

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Speaker 4: the two passes, Sarah, I only used them before the game, which,

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Speaker 4: for some mysterious reason, i'd alway been kept out of

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Speaker 4: the clubhouse. Then too, the commissioner contended that the reason

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Speaker 4: for me being out of the clubhouse was to protect

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Speaker 4: the sexual privacy of players. Well before the game started,

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Speaker 4: between batting practice and the game, not one player changed

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Speaker 4: out of his uniform. So I went into the clubhouse

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Speaker 4: during that period. For those two games, I didn't need

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Speaker 4: to be there like a daily reporter might for the

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Speaker 4: game coverage afterwards. And so again, as a gradualist, you know,

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Speaker 4: I have to frankly say it worked fine. The players

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Speaker 4: knew me, they were prepared by Mickey that I had

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Speaker 4: the pass, and things worked out well well enough. I

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Speaker 4: might add that not one baseball reporter wrote about me

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Speaker 4: being in the locker room during those two games, or

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Speaker 4: during the American League Championship series, in which I was

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Speaker 4: also in the locker room, which gave me a sense

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Speaker 4: that maybe my gradualist kind of mother may I approach

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Speaker 4: had actually worked. So when we come to that nineteen

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Speaker 4: seventy seven World Series, I have a sense, why wouldn't

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Speaker 4: I have a sense at that point that maybe we're

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Speaker 4: going to make this work.

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Speaker 1: Throughout those games, you only went in before the game,

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Speaker 1: Yes you didn't.

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Speaker 4: No, that is not the case. I'm sorry I did that.

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Speaker 4: Just those two games. And then during the American League

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Speaker 4: Championship I was in the locker room both before games

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Speaker 4: as well as.

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Speaker 2: After, and no incidents, no one complaining.

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Speaker 4: No incidents. I wasn't thrown out. I wouldn't say that

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Speaker 4: there were no incidents. I mean there were players who

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Speaker 4: very much voiced their disapproval of my presence among them.

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Speaker 4: But I came. I understood from the very beginning that

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Speaker 4: this was their clubhouse, this was their locker room, and

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Speaker 4: if something egregious happened, I had a sense that I

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Speaker 4: would understand a redline and if a player lost, then

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Speaker 4: I would either say or do something or leave. And

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Speaker 4: you know, share with Mickey my experience. But none of

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Speaker 4: that happened. Yes, were their jokes made. Yes, were there

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Speaker 4: are things that were probably said of me at the

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Speaker 4: time that were uncomfortable to year, Yes, but you know

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Speaker 4: that was part of what I knew would happen. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I just knew it. So your roll with it.

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Speaker 1: So it ends up happening that the first game of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy seven World Series arrives, the Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: Dodgers actually had a vote during which the players approved

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Speaker 1: your presence in the locker room and agreed with the

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Speaker 1: Yankees that it was fine that you were in there,

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Speaker 1: but the Commissioner of Baseball, Booie Kune, banned you from

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Speaker 1: the locker room because of your gender. Take us to

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Speaker 1: that day, Like you said, at this point, you've arrived

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Speaker 1: at the World Series, believing that the barrier has been broken,

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Speaker 1: and now you're a part of the crew that goes

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Speaker 1: in the locker room. How do you find out that

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Speaker 1: this is a problem and that Booie has stepped in?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the Dodgers were in town. I recognized

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Speaker 4: right away that they had never had a woman and

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Speaker 4: covering them. So it was actually by me going to

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Speaker 4: them what I thought of as playing a sort of

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Speaker 4: courtesy call, explaining to them that I had a pass

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Speaker 4: that said I had entrance to the clubhouse, telling them

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Speaker 4: about my experiences with the Yankees. I hoped that that

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Speaker 4: would ease the way for them to understand that I

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Speaker 4: might be coming into their clubhouse as well. It was

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Speaker 4: because of the conversation that I'm kind of relaying to

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Speaker 4: you at this point, with those elements in it that

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Speaker 4: I had with their player Rep. Tommy John, that that

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Speaker 4: vote was taken. And right before the first game, Tommy

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Speaker 4: John came out to meet me, as he said he would,

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Speaker 4: told me that it was a majority of players that

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Speaker 4: they understood and that it was fine with them for

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Speaker 4: me to be in there, And so that was how

251
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Speaker 4: I walked away from him. He then called me back however,

252
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Speaker 4: and asked me another favor, and that was to let

253
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Speaker 4: their PR people know that this might happen. And it

254
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Speaker 4: was that going my willingness to convey that message to

255
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Speaker 4: the PR people on behalf of Tommy and the team

256
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Speaker 4: that sort of sealed my fate, which I was informed

257
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Speaker 4: of five innings later.

258
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Speaker 1: So their PR person went to the commissioner, presumably and

259
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Speaker 1: maybe decided that that would be the person that they

260
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Speaker 1: would have to do their dirty work. Perhaps the PR

261
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Speaker 1: person for the Dodgers was the one who wanted it.

262
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Speaker 1: Who knows, At the very least they managed to take

263
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Speaker 1: it to a commissioner who for sure wanted to prevent you.

264
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Speaker 1: So your five innings into the game, and who approaches

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Speaker 1: you and how soon after that game did you decide

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Speaker 1: that you were going to take up a fight.

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Speaker 4: During the fifth inning, I was sitting in the overflow

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Speaker 4: press box that was in the grand stands. Sports Illustrated

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Speaker 4: had four people assigned to the game. Only one of

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Speaker 4: them was in the main press box. So I called

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Speaker 4: over a very small loud speaker in our press box

272
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Speaker 4: to report to the main press box, and through a

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Speaker 4: series of conversations I had none of them directly with

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Speaker 4: the commissioner, even though I asked to speak with him directly,

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Speaker 4: since it was his edict, but I refused permission to

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Speaker 4: do that. The bottom line was that I was told

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Speaker 4: that it didn't matter if the Yankees gave permission. It

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Speaker 4: didn't matter that the Dodgers gave permission. It did not

279
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Speaker 4: matter that the Baseball Writers had given me permission by

280
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Speaker 4: issuing me that press credential. The only person in Baseball

281
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Speaker 4: who could give me permission was the commissioner, and he

282
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Speaker 4: would not He would take that permission away for the

283
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Speaker 4: entire series. And then added to that, I was told

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Speaker 4: permission would be not granted forever.

285
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Speaker 2: He was very young, My goodness, a lifetime ban of sorts.

286
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Speaker 4: Well, he was young, and it rose. Yeah, I guess so.

287
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Speaker 4: But I guess the difference is that if you live

288
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Speaker 4: long enough as I have my passes, that clubhouse pass

289
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Speaker 4: and my pass for the series is in the Hall

290
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Speaker 4: of Fame.

291
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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. You've got one up on it

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Speaker 2: so far.

293
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Speaker 1: Okay, So in this moment, this feels very extreme. Not

294
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Speaker 1: only are we rejecting you right now, but don't bother

295
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Speaker 1: coming back later to ask again. You decide to file

296
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Speaker 1: a lawsuit, and I wonder what the response to the

297
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Speaker 1: lawsuit was. Let's start with from colleagues, your editor, or

298
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Speaker 1: your bosses. What kind of support or criticism did you get?

299
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Speaker 4: Well, it was actually my bosses. It was actually Time

300
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,160
Speaker 4: Incorporated who came to me and asked if I would

301
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Speaker 4: be in a plaintiff in a lawsuit they would file

302
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Speaker 4: at the Southern District Court of Manhattan. This only came

303
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 4: about after several weeks. It might have even been two

304
00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,440
Speaker 4: months of negotiations that had gone on between the baseball

305
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 4: editor and the lawyer at Sports Illustrated and the commissioner

306
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Speaker 4: and his lawyer, And it was only toward the beginning

307
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Speaker 4: of December, I believe, when they realized that there was

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Speaker 4: no progress being made. Baseball believe that quote unquote, separate

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Speaker 4: accommodations would for me would be equal to what the

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Speaker 4: men had by interviewing the players in the clubhouse. We

311
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Speaker 4: disagreed fundamentally, separate would not be equal, and we demanded

312
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Speaker 4: equal access. There was no meeting of the minds to

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Speaker 4: be had. And it was at that point that Time

314
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 4: Ink made the decision Time Incorporated to file this lawsuit,

315
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Speaker 4: and they came to me and asked if I would

316
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Speaker 4: be the named plaintiff in the lawsuit.

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Speaker 1: As owners of Sports Illustrated, Time Inc. Which is where

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Speaker 1: we were.

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Speaker 4: Owners of Sports Illustrated. They had been sued a Time

320
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Speaker 4: Incorporated by their own women for gender discrimination and this

321
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Speaker 4: is across the company in the early nineteen seventies, and

322
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Speaker 4: had signed a conciliation agreement to end that legal action

323
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Speaker 4: by agreeing that from then that point out there would

324
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 4: be gender equality in assignments, etc. Now that wasn't instantly

325
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 4: something that happened, but I always believed that it was

326
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,960
Speaker 4: because that conciliation agreement existed, that there was the pressure

327
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Speaker 4: through the legal department and the rest to make this happen.

328
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Speaker 4: They came to me, asked me, And you know, Sarah,

329
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Speaker 4: I was twenty six at the time. I started covering

330
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Speaker 4: baseball when I was twenty four, I was very naive

331
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Speaker 4: when I said yes, because I saw it through one

332
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,199
Speaker 4: lens and one lens only. I wanted to do a

333
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,639
Speaker 4: job I absolutely loved. I felt I was just really

334
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Speaker 4: getting to the point of learning how to do it.

335
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 4: Two years of really putting in my time at the ballparks,

336
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 4: I'd already written a few baseball stories by then I

337
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 4: just wanted to keep doing this. I loved it, and

338
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 4: I felt there was no reason for me not to

339
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,200
Speaker 4: be able to do it. So I looked at it

340
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 4: totally as almost an employment lawsuit, But little did I

341
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Speaker 4: understand its cultural touchstones.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's nice, whether they're hand forced or not, that

343
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,360
Speaker 1: you then felt the support legally and es of your

344
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 1: bosses and your company. Can you sum up the personal

345
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 1: price that you paid by being the face of the

346
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Speaker 1: of the change of that lawsuit.

347
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Speaker 4: I can try to sum it up. I certainly talk

348
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 4: about it in my in writing this book, and I

349
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 4: felt in writing the book that I had to be

350
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 4: incredibly well. I had to just be honest. I had

351
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 4: to be honest about the toll that being the target

352
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Speaker 4: of a lot of criticism of a person that I

353
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 4: didn't even see in myself. I was challenged, My morality

354
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 4: was challenged for wanting to do this. I was sexually

355
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 4: objectified in many ways, certainly not the loud misogyny that

356
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 4: you see on social media, because you had the civilizing

357
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 4: impact of the men had to have their bylines and

358
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,679
Speaker 4: often their pictures on the top of the columns. But

359
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 4: to me it still felt harsh. It felt crude, it

360
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 4: felt demeaning. I didn't handle it well. So I guess

361
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,160
Speaker 4: to add to the summation, I would say I made

362
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 4: some terrible decisions in my life in some ways as

363
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 4: a response to feeling very alone and targeted, perhaps to

364
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 4: some extent for being a single woman, you know, with

365
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,640
Speaker 4: blonde hair, I was somewhat slim, so I think people

366
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 4: made a lot of assumptions about me, and the implications

367
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 4: were that I was there really to wanting to date

368
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 4: the ballplayers and to see them naked in their locker room.

369
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 4: So those were essentially the implications. So what I did

370
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 4: is I somewhat ran for cover. There was a sports

371
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 4: journalist I met a week after my lawsuit was filed,

372
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 4: and within three weeks he had asked me to marry him,

373
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 4: and I just lost my mind at that point and

374
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Speaker 4: I said I would. And it was a very bad

375
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 4: decision in my life that of course ended up with

376
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 4: a divorce several years later. But it was a very

377
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,919
Speaker 4: very unhappy marriage and a very very wrong decision for

378
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,959
Speaker 4: me to have made in the midst of what was

379
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 4: happening to me as part of this lawsuit.

380
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: Feels like protection though, or safety protection against rumors that

381
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: you're after something else, safety against accusations, and yeah, so it.

382
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 4: Was a safe harbor. You're right, there's a notion that

383
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 4: it would be a safe harbor.

384
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:08,640
Speaker 3: Right.

385
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 2: What were your feelings after you won the lawsuit?

386
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 4: Relief? Relief that I felt like a year of coverage

387
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 4: about it might finally end. That was wrong. In fact,

388
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 4: it went into the next season, and certainly we've seen

389
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 4: indications of this same issues of women just in covering baseball,

390
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 4: incidents in locker room, sexual harassment, etc. Play out even

391
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 4: up till now. So you know, the victory in court

392
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 4: felt very good. I think I felt at the time,

393
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 4: again naively, that victory and court would lead to a

394
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 4: change in attitudes. I came to understand as I moved

395
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 4: through those decades, and certainly by the time I started

396
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 4: writing this book maybe in the last five, six, seven years,

397
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 4: that that change in attitude took takes a lot longer,

398
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 4: And in fact, I'd argue that we haven't quite gotten

399
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 4: to where I might have wished we'd gotten, even nearly

400
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 4: fifty years later.

401
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, was there retaliation?

402
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: Were there other reporters or players or managers who knew

403
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: who you were when you came in after the loss.

404
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: It was one and after you were allowed and okay

405
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: to be in there, that you felt took it out

406
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 1: on you that you had changed things.

407
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 4: No, I don't feel like I was retaliated against. I

408
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 4: really don't. But I will say that a very dear

409
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 4: friend of mine, in fact, the only woman reporter who's

410
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 4: in the Hall of Fame in the Writer's Wing, Claire Smith,

411
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 4: was still dealing with sort of the residue of my

412
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 4: lawsuit and the action I'd taken, and it had been resolved,

413
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 4: we thought in seventy eight. She's still in nineteen eighty four,

414
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 4: was basically lifted up by two players Padres, lifted out

415
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 4: of the locker room, put in the hallway with manager,

416
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 4: the manager saying we don't want you in here, we

417
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 4: don't like you in here. And so you know, that

418
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 4: was still happening, and you know, in some ways buoy

419
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 4: Kyun was a man of his word, because it took

420
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 4: that incident in Chicago during the National League playoffs for

421
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 4: the brand new commissioner Peter Uberroth to issue finally a

422
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,199
Speaker 4: statement that said we're no longer saying it would be

423
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 4: nice if you would treat all reporters the same while

424
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 4: they're there, we're saying that you will treat It's a mandate.

425
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 4: So it took Qune leaving. It might have taken that

426
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 4: incident that Claire had to go through that evening for

427
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 4: Peter Ruberroth and Baseball to make the official change in

428
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 4: its policy. But again we see through the decades indications

429
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 4: that attitudes still we're lagging.

430
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: Sort of like Title nine.

431
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: The law can exist, but the enforcement of it is

432
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: the thing that matters most.

433
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 2: So women can be allowed.

434
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: But over the decades, what you see so often is

435
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: that there are so many women repeating the stories about

436
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: not feeling fully welcome, being treated poorly, being treated differently,

437
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: even if technically they are allowed.

438
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 4: But I think you're absolutely right, Sarah. I sometimes think

439
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 4: back to the history of the Brown versus Board of Education,

440
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 4: in which was a nine nothing decision in the Supreme

441
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: Court in nineteen fifty four, and yet in the early

442
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 4: sixties you still found school systems throughout the South and

443
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 4: in other places who refuse to adhere to it, and

444
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,719
Speaker 4: they set up separate academies so they didn't have to

445
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 4: adhere to it. So these things, despite an order, despite

446
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 4: a landmark ruling, take a lot more than that. They

447
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 4: take the pressure of influential people, moving people out of

448
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 4: habits into a different place in their thinking, and.

449
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: The fight sort of continues.

450
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: Every time we rest believing that something has been settled,

451
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: we run the risk of finding out later it hasn't,

452
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,479
Speaker 1: as obviously Dobbs showed us, and as an effort to

453
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: turn back the time on some other things as as well.

454
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: Despite the fact that women still have to go in

455
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 1: and sometimes fight these fights on a smaller scale than

456
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: an actual lawsuit, which was your battle, you do recognize

457
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: the impact that you had on other women in the

458
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: space and other women joining the space in the years

459
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: that followed as a result of what you did. When

460
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: you're writing this book now and you look back, how

461
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: much pride do you feel in understanding the impact that

462
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: you had and putting your name on that lawsuit and

463
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: being the first.

464
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 4: Well, you're not seeing me right now, but I am smiling.

465
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 4: There was a lot of reflection that went into writing

466
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 4: this book on my part, and I think it's fair

467
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 4: to say that one of the things that I might

468
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 4: have felt even more as I set out to write

469
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 4: this story and till it was a sense of accomplishment

470
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 4: and Joy. I write in the book that I thought back,

471
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: as I was going through my early years to the

472
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 4: words that Shirley Chisholm, who had been the first black

473
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 4: woman to have a seat in Congress. She was my

474
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 4: commencement speaker in nineteen seventy three, and at our commencement

475
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 4: she made a point of talking about her own activism.

476
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 4: She had run for president the year before, so she

477
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 4: was very well known as an activist for civil rights

478
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 4: and also women's rights. She urged us, as highly educated

479
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 4: women to find our place in what she called the

480
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 4: social movements of our time. I had not done that.

481
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 4: I had gone into sports media. They were eighteen nineteen

482
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 4: hour days for me because of my time at the

483
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 4: ballpark every night. I hadn't carved out a space to

484
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 4: really become the participatory, act activist in either of those movements,

485
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 4: although my heart was certainly with them. But I looked

486
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 4: back and I realized that by moving into this space,

487
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 4: into this visible space, and winning this lawsuit, which is

488
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 4: memorable and did have a lasting impact, that somehow I

489
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 4: did finally manage to sort of live up to what

490
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 4: she had asked me to do as a sort of

491
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 4: soldier in her campaign and I so admire her that

492
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 4: there did come a point in writing this book, and

493
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 4: I think I actually say it in the book that

494
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 4: I did feel as though I lived up to Shirley's

495
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 4: words and I love that good.

496
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's wonderful.

497
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: Run out of time here, but I want to ask you,

498
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, understanding the fight that you put up for

499
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: access in locker rooms, how do you feel about the

500
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: potential change in the way pro sports operate taking interviews

501
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: outside of that space like they do in that WNBA,

502
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: like the NFLPA working toward most professional women's sports now

503
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: don't offer up access in the PWHL, in the NWSL,

504
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: the interviews are done outside the locker room. Do you

505
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: feel like that's something that can be done in other

506
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: professional spaces, assuming that there is still control over deadlines

507
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: and time and whether athletes have to participate, as long

508
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: as it's done in a different space.

509
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 4: The short answer is yes, And in terms of my

510
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 4: own situation and how it relates to what's happening today,

511
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 4: we were always fighting not for access to the locker room,

512
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 4: but for equal access to the athletes. Had Baseball decided

513
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 4: at that time to move the interviews outside of the

514
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 4: clubhouse and provide the same access to men and women.

515
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 4: The order that my judge ruled in my case, that

516
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 4: would have solved their problem. But at the time, and

517
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 4: we found this out in our discovery process, the men

518
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 4: who were covering baseball were communicating with the commissioner's office

519
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 4: and sort of warning him, however, you take care of

520
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 4: this lucky situation. Do not take away our access, do not.

521
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 4: And so, in fact, I think that baseball and other

522
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 4: sports in the seventies were almost singularly relying on newspaper

523
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 4: coverage to drive people to those stadiums. That is very

524
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 4: different now, as we know, and so we're in a

525
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 4: very different media environment. We're in a very different ecosystem.

526
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 4: The players are on Instagram, they send out their stories,

527
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 4: they're even players channels that they can send out their

528
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 4: information on. They are no longer dependent on newspapers in particular,

529
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 4: who needed that kind of access to write the kind

530
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: of in depth stories that they wanted to write, carrying

531
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 4: the emotion and the rest that we now might get

532
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 4: mainly through TV into people's living rooms the next morning.

533
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 4: It was sort of a direct way to convey what

534
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 4: TV largely conveys. Do I feel that there's still a

535
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 4: reason for players, I mean for people to want to

536
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 4: be in a clubhouse. I do because with a team

537
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 4: sport as large as a team is in baseball or football,

538
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 4: unlike basketball, by the way, you have, I believe a

539
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 4: need for that communicator to be able to see and

540
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 4: hear the dynamics that are going on between the team members.

541
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 4: There is nothing that can be conveyed on a conference

542
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 4: table with three microphones in a conference room that will

543
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: give you the kind of paragraphs that Roger Kahn wrote

544
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 4: at the end of the nineteen fifty five World Series,

545
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 4: when the Brooklyn Dodgers came into that locker room and

546
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 4: sat there, I would urge people to go back and

547
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 4: read the Voice of Summer. It's a fabulous It takes

548
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 4: you in there, you understand the feelings you see in

549
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 4: their actions. That's what a writer can do. If you're

550
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,239
Speaker 4: doing mainly radio TV and you're putting it out on

551
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 4: social media as a press conference, of course you can

552
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 4: do that the way they're doing it now. But I

553
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 4: think I've given you a sense of where I come

554
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 4: down on this. But as it relates to my case,

555
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 4: we never pretended it was never an issue of us

556
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: saying we're going to federal court so that I can

557
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 4: be in the locker room. That was never it. That's

558
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 4: how the stories conveyed it because the male writers did

559
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: not want to treat it as an equal rights case.

560
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 4: They wanted to treat it as a woman invading a

561
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 4: man's space, etc. So that's why people have a misinterpretation

562
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 4: in many ways that I was fighting to get inside

563
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 4: of locker room so as fighting for equal access. So

564
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 4: you know, who am I to say that elite can't

565
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 4: provide equal access in the way they want to their athletes.

566
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 4: You know, it's a tough question.

567
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: You bring up some interesting points, though, and we're going

568
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: to keep having this conversation on the show, because there

569
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: are elements of immediacy. There are elements of elusiveness from

570
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: athletes if they know that they can evade the media

571
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: by just waiting long enough before coming out, and then

572
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: they'll skip deadlines and other things. And then the personal

573
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: connection and the relationships that you can create in a

574
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: locker room that aren't done with simple scrums. There's so

575
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: many elements to this. But your perspective is fascinating and

576
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: the book is fascinating. Locker room talk a woman struggle

577
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: to get inside. There is so much to be learned

578
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: by hearing stories from people like Melissa Ludkey and how

579
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: things were decades ago. A specially when we see how

580
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: things have not changed, it reminds us that the fight

581
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: remains in so many ways, but also how far we've

582
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: come in some ways. So Melissa, thank you so much

583
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: for the time, and thank you for writing the book,

584
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: and thank you for being part of the reason that

585
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: I've been able to be in locker rooms and do

586
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: the job that I do.

587
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 4: Sarah, what a pleasure it is to be with you.

588
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for thinking of me.

589
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Melissa for joining us. We have to

590
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 1: take another break when we come back, step back, bro,

591
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 1: Welcome back, my little slices. We love that you're listening,

592
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: but we always want you to get in the game

593
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: every day too. So here's our good gameplay of the day.

594
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: Duh winner take all Game five tonight, Baby, who's going

595
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: to meet the Liberty in the finals?

596
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: The Sun or the Links?

597
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: You got to watch eight pm Eastern ESPN two and

598
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: we always love to hear from you, so hit us

599
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: up on email. Good game at wondermedianetwork dot com. Or

600
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail at eight seven two two oh

601
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: four fifty seventy, and don't forget to subscribe, Rate and review.

602
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: It's so easy. Watch people who step closer to you

603
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: when you step away from them. Rating zero out of

604
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: five review How are you not even remotely self aware?

605
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: I took a step back because you're talking too close.

606
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: I can literally smell what you had for lunch, and

607
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: I can see the leftovers in your teeth. Get the hint, bro,

608
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: And if I keep stepping back and you keep stepping

609
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: toward me, we're literally going to fight spatial awareness.

610
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: Motherfucker.

611
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,439
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good Game, Melissa, Good Game,

612
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: Billy Jean King again and forever few people who think

613
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: women are trying to pick up a man in the

614
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: locker room. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart

615
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

616
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

617
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,

618
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive

619
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett Jesse Katz. It's Jenny Kaplan and

620
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace

621
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: Lynch and Lindsay Cradwell.

622
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: Production assistant from Lucy

623
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: Jones and I'm Your Host Santa Spain,