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Speaker 6: Hey Daniel, I have a question about the physics of space.

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Speaker 1: Oh cool, I love those Space is so amazing and fun.

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Speaker 7: To talk about.

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Speaker 6: Well, not the physics of space space, I mean like

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Speaker 6: the office space of physics.

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Speaker 1: What's the physics of office space?

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Speaker 8: You know?

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Speaker 6: I remember when I visited at CERN and I walked

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Speaker 6: by the office of a physicis called John Ellis, and

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Speaker 6: it was so messy, with paper stacks so high it

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Speaker 6: looked almost impossible to walk in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he is famously disorganized.

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Speaker 4: Now how does that work?

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Speaker 6: Do particle physicists have some kind of special trick that

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Speaker 6: makes their office bigger on the inside than on the outside,

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Speaker 6: you know, kind of like those Harry Potter tents.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I think it might be the opposite. I think

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Speaker 1: their offices are on the verened of lapsing into personal

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Speaker 1: black holes.

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Speaker 6: No, but that's kind of what I mean, Like black

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Speaker 6: holes might have whole universes inside of him. Do physicist

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Speaker 6: offices have a whole universe inside of him? And what

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Speaker 6: are they doing inside of there?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I suspect in John ELS's office

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Speaker 1: there's lots of ideas lost behind his personal event horizon

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Speaker 1: event horizon or mess horizon, the disorganization horizon.

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Speaker 6: I am Jorge May, cartoonist and the creator of PhD comments.

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Speaker 1: Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, And contrary to popular perception, I do

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Speaker 1: try to keep my office kind of organized.

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Speaker 6: Kind of that that sounds like a little bit of

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Speaker 6: a loophole there. Yeah, my office is totally kind of organized,

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Speaker 6: if you set the bar really for the definition of

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Speaker 6: the word organization.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to brag too much, but yes, I

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Speaker 1: do like to keep my office neat and tidy.

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Speaker 6: M I'm not sure that's something to brag about it.

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Speaker 6: Don't they say genius is related to how messy your

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Speaker 6: desk is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, Obama said physical discipline leads to mental discipline, so.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I think Yoda said something similar. Also, organization

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Speaker 6: leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering, and suffering leads

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Speaker 6: to the dark side.

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Speaker 1: But who do you think would win in basketball? Obama

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Speaker 1: or Yoda?

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Speaker 4: Yoda?

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Speaker 6: I mean, I love Obama, but come on, Yoda. I

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Speaker 6: can do like super summer saults with a lightsaber.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that dude could probably dunk. That's true.

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Speaker 6: Anyways, Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge in the Universe,

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Speaker 6: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we do mental summersaults. To try to explain

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Speaker 1: the entire universe to you. We go out there into

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Speaker 1: the vast stretches of empty space, wondering about what is

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Speaker 1: actually out there, what it's made out of, zoom down

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Speaker 1: to the very granular nature of reality itself, and ask

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Speaker 1: questions about what it is, what it means, and how

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Speaker 1: we can figure it all out. We zoom in, we

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Speaker 1: zoom out, we zoom everywhere in the universe to try

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Speaker 1: to explain everything to you.

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Speaker 6: That's right, because it is a pretty amazing universe, and

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Speaker 6: we like to explore the force in it, the dark

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Speaker 6: side of it, and also the physics of basketball sometimes

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Speaker 6: as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, I wonder in the Star Wars universe you

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Speaker 1: have like young Jedi. Are they playing sports with each other?

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Speaker 1: Do they have some version of like Jedi quidditch where

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Speaker 1: they're you know, pushing balls around with their minds?

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Speaker 6: Oh, interesting question. You should write like a fan fiction

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Speaker 6: bubble based on just that, Harry Potter Star Wars like

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Speaker 6: QUI gon quidditch fan fiction for Star Wars, and throw

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Speaker 6: in some brooms as well.

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Speaker 1: But I'm asking a serious question. I think give a

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Speaker 1: deeper knowledge of these universes than I do. Do Young

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Speaker 1: Jedi play some sort of ball sports with their minds.

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Speaker 6: I don't see why they wouldn't. I guess I don't

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Speaker 6: think it's canon. I mean, I do play with a

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Speaker 6: little like a floating ball where they try to hit

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Speaker 6: it with the lightsaber. Maybe's may that's a sport.

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Speaker 4: I don't up.

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Speaker 6: We'll have to ask George Lucas. Can we get him

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Speaker 6: on the podcast George Lucas?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I totally email with George Lucas all the time.

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Speaker 1: I send him all of my Star Wars ideas.

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Speaker 4: Oh good, that would explain a lot.

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Speaker 1: I don't get any answers, but I do email him.

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Speaker 6: But it is a pretty wonderful universe. We explore all

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Speaker 6: sides of it because it's kind of a big universe.

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Speaker 6: There's a lot of space in it.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the universe is mostly space. The kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that you're standing on and the sun that's in

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Speaker 1: the sky is pretty unusual. If you're going to pick

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Speaker 1: like a random spot in the universe, you're mostly going

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Speaker 1: to end up in a spot without a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff in it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, because, as we talked about on the podcast, space

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Speaker 6: it's not just emptiness, it's not nothing. It is actually

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Speaker 6: a thing. The thing that can stretch, that can bend,

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Speaker 6: that can slow down time. It's reactive to things, so

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Speaker 6: it's not nothing exactly.

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Speaker 1: We know that space is something interesting and it's a

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Speaker 1: really fascinating step in our sort of multi stage exploration

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Speaker 1: of the universe. You know, we start just by looking

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Speaker 1: at the stuff that's around us. We ask what's that

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Speaker 1: made out of? What's that made out of? What's that

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Speaker 1: made out of? But we sort of never stop asking

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Speaker 1: those questions, and now we're at the point where we're

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Speaker 1: trying to understand, like what is the thing that all

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Speaker 1: the stuff is in. You know, if matter in the

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Speaker 1: end is made of particles, and those particles are oscillations

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Speaker 1: and quantum fields, and those quantum fields sit in space,

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Speaker 1: then the next frontier of understanding really is to understand

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Speaker 1: what that space itself is, and is space sitting in

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Speaker 1: some sort of like meta super or subspace.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a very spacey question. There are many possibilities

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Speaker 6: out there for what space can be if you can't

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Speaker 6: imagine that, and.

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Speaker 1: It's a fundamental question at the heart of modern physics.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to understand quantum theory, were trying to understand

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Speaker 1: relativity and gravitation, and it's the nexus of those two

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Speaker 1: is the fundamental mystery of what space actually is? Can

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Speaker 1: it actually bend to make black holes? Are black holes

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Speaker 1: really black holes? Or are they something else? Why is

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Speaker 1: the universe expanding? What will be its ultimate fate? At

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Speaker 1: their hearts, all of these questions really are asked. What

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Speaker 1: is space? And what are the rules of it? What

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Speaker 1: governs it? What is it fundamentally? Is it in fact

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Speaker 1: fundamental or is it just a frothing, emergent phenomena of

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Speaker 1: something even deeper? Yeah?

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Speaker 6: And do the rules of space apply to office space?

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Speaker 6: And I mean where people work, not just a movie.

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Speaker 1: Office space turns out to be mostly politics. You know,

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Speaker 1: every time somebody retires here, there's like a scramble to

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Speaker 1: see who gets their big office.

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Speaker 4: Oh? Really, does it go by seniority?

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Speaker 6: Like the more senior you are, the closer you are

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Speaker 6: to the snack room or the restrooms, or the closer

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Speaker 6: you need to be to the restroom.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps, you know academics. Academics always have ladder systems and

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Speaker 1: ranking systems, and it's no different here. We have like

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Speaker 1: many levels of being a professor. It's not just like assisted, associate,

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Speaker 1: and full professor. Within each of those, it's like many gradations,

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Speaker 1: like full professor four or associate professor seven or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So when a new office opens up, they go down

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Speaker 1: the ladder and ask people at the top of the

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Speaker 1: ladder if they want it or not, and ridiculuslessly. All

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Speaker 1: the offices in my building, at least, are different sizes

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Speaker 1: and shapes. It would been so much simpler if just

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Speaker 1: every office was the same size. I know, they made

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Speaker 1: some really big ones and some really little ones.

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Speaker 4: Hmm.

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Speaker 6: It's almost like they wanted some drama, political drama. Maybe

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Speaker 6: that was the architects revenge.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was I don't know.

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Speaker 6: Isn't there some kind of like office space inertia, Like ooh, that.

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Speaker 4: That is a slightly bigger office, But I.

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Speaker 6: Would have to clean my office and pack everything up

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Speaker 6: to move, so maybe I'll just skip.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I do think that a lot of people don't

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Speaker 1: take a bigger office just because they're happy where they are,

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Speaker 1: or they don't really care, or their office is such

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Speaker 1: a disaster that it's impossible to imagine moving. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's also why it's sometimes hard to get people

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Speaker 1: out of their offices, because if You've been in there

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Speaker 1: for thirty years. You got a lot of stuff you

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Speaker 1: got to move out.

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Speaker 6: Are you saying there is such a thing as space inertia?

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Speaker 6: Like space can have inertia.

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Speaker 1: It turns out space can have politics. That's even weirder.

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Speaker 6: Or can a black hole have inertia?

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Speaker 1: Back to actual physics? Black holes definitely do have inertia, right,

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Speaker 1: They have mass, which means that they have inertia. If

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Speaker 1: you pushed on a black hole, then its acceleration would

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Speaker 1: be inversely proportional to its mass.

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Speaker 6: But you wouldn't actually recommend that, right, pushing a black

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Speaker 6: hole that would be not good.

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Speaker 1: It depends if the black hole is headed towards our

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Speaker 1: solar system, then I would say, yes, let's launch something

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Speaker 1: heavy to push on the black hole so that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't come through our solar system.

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Speaker 6: Well, I guess what I meant is you wouldn't want

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Speaker 6: to push it yourself, like send Daniel up into space

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Speaker 6: having pushed on the black hole.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that would end well.

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Speaker 1: Am I going to get a big office out of it?

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Speaker 9: Maybe?

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Speaker 4: Probably? Yeah, you might have the whole black hole to yourself.

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Speaker 1: That sounds great, except there are no windows and I

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Speaker 1: really like an office with a view.

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Speaker 6: Well, it would be all windows except except yeah, I

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Speaker 6: guess you couldn't stick your head out of the window.

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Speaker 1: M yeah.

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Speaker 6: But it is interesting to think about what space could

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Speaker 6: be like, what is it made out of, and what

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Speaker 6: actually makes space happen.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I think about scientists the way we think about

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Speaker 1: fish swimming around in water, probably not even really aware

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Speaker 1: that they are inside some sort of fluid because that's

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Speaker 1: their entire world. It might take fish like hundreds of

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Speaker 1: years or thousands of years to discover that the thing

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Speaker 1: they're inside is not the fundamental nature of the universe.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't exist everywhere, and it can do other kinds

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Speaker 1: of things like boil and freeze and all sorts of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if we are sort of like fish,

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Speaker 1: exploring the nature of space and only now discovering that

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Speaker 1: it can do weird things that might have strange properties

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Speaker 1: and might not even be the fundamental layer of reality.

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Speaker 6: So to be on the podcast, we'll be asking the

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Speaker 6: question is space time a fluid? What do you mean

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Speaker 6: it's a fluid? It's certainly a gas, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Well, time definitely seems to flow, so why not space time? Right?

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Speaker 6: Well, it's bas definitely a solid thing. It's always there,

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Speaker 6: you can rely on it.

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Speaker 1: Well, back to the analogy with fish scientists, which I

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Speaker 1: think probably originates with Max Tegmark. If you discover that

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Speaker 1: space is more complicated than and just the backdrop of

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Speaker 1: the universe, and you discover that it might have other properties,

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Speaker 1: it might be able to do things like flow or

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Speaker 1: bubble or have different phases. And so that's a fascinating

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Speaker 1: question about the nature of space itself and sort of

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Speaker 1: what it can do. Can be described using the mathematics

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Speaker 1: of fluids, or do we need a completely different kind

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Speaker 1: of mathematics to explain what space is up to.

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Speaker 6: Well, it is kind of a mind blowing question to

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Speaker 6: think that space time could be a fluid. It makes

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Speaker 6: it seem like it's a physical thing, like it actually

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Speaker 6: has like mass to it or something, or that it

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Speaker 6: responds to forces and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as we'll see, space time being a fluid would

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Speaker 1: give very specific predictions for how things propagate through it,

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Speaker 1: how energy is spread or dissipates. So it's a really

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Speaker 1: fascinating hypothesis and I know.

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Speaker 6: We've talked about it in the podcast before, how space

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Speaker 6: time could be like a bubble, right, or like a

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Speaker 6: a folam?

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Speaker 4: Is not a fluid, is it?

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Speaker 8: Now?

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Speaker 1: There are many theories of what space might be down

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Speaker 1: at the granular level. Is it made of little pixels

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Speaker 1: which are woven together with quantum entanglement into a kind

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Speaker 1: of foam or do those pixels operate in a different

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Speaker 1: sort of way. So this is more about, like at

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Speaker 1: the fundamental level, what are the rules of how those

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Speaker 1: pixels interact with each other and what phenomena emerges from that?

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Speaker 1: Can you describe them using the physics of foam or

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Speaker 1: of liquids, or of ice cream, or office space Bradley,

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Speaker 1: or interpersonal politics or.

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Speaker 4: Any kind of politics.

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Speaker 6: Well, as usual, we were wondering how many people out

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Speaker 6: there had thought about this question, had thought that maybe

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Speaker 6: space time could be a fluid. So Daniel went out

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Speaker 6: there as usual and ask the internet what they thought.

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much to everybody who answers these questions. We

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Speaker 1: love to hear your voice on the podcast, and anybody

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Speaker 1: out there who wants to volunteer, please don't be shy,

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Speaker 1: just write to me two questions at Danielandjorge dot com.

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Speaker 6: So think about it for a second. Do you think

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Speaker 6: space time could be a fluid. Here's what people have

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Speaker 6: to say.

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Speaker 8: I remember this was the argument for a theory in

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Speaker 8: the Pigavon theory. So yeah, maybe spacetime could be a fluid,

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Speaker 8: and that's the reason it only goes in one direction.

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Speaker 10: Maybe in previous episodes, I've noticed that you say that

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Speaker 10: space time can be stretched and squashed and almost like

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Speaker 10: molded in that kind of way. So I always imagine

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Speaker 10: space time being in some sort of matter state. So yes,

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Speaker 10: I would say space time could be similar to a fluid.

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Speaker 9: I guess that space time is fluid ish because you

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Speaker 9: can't put it in a jar or something. But it

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Speaker 9: may behave like a fluid for some physics calculation.

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Speaker 11: I don't know, man, it seems like, you know, there's

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Speaker 11: waves in it, and we talk about it as some

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Speaker 11: sort of foam, But like what space is the fluid occupying?

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Speaker 11: That's that's a That's what gets me.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: So if I think about it, what is a fluid?

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Speaker 7: A fluid is the fluid will flow and it could

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Speaker 7: flow very slow, like a glacier is ice. You think

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Speaker 7: ice is a solid, but over long time scales, a

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Speaker 7: glacier would flow like a river and I think space

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Speaker 7: time around really massive objects like a black hole spinning

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Speaker 7: black hole in particular will also get dragged around. I

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Speaker 7: think it's called frame dragging, So space time itself will

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Speaker 7: spin around the black hole. And I think as you

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Speaker 7: go past the event horizon, doesn't space time itself kind

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Speaker 7: of flow towards the singularity.

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Speaker 4: I'm guessing that you could consider the curture that some

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Speaker 4: kind of them starts to exert on space time could

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Speaker 4: be considered fluid. All right.

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Speaker 6: I feel like we blew people's minds with this question.

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Speaker 6: Somebody's like one of the people is like, whoa, I

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Speaker 6: don't know, man.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's my favorite part this podcast is making people

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Speaker 1: explore crazy ideas, is digging deep into whether the universe

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Speaker 1: could really be different from the way that we imagine it,

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Speaker 1: you know, so contrary to our intuition. Those are the

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Speaker 1: best kinds of discoveries. And I think these responses really

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Speaker 1: reflect that kind of moment of exhilaration to imagine that

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Speaker 1: the universe could be so different.

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Speaker 6: I like the prison to say they think it's fluid ish. Hey,

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Speaker 6: that's a good answer for anything. Do you think the

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Speaker 6: unerous is this rare or that way? I think it's

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Speaker 6: this way ish.

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Speaker 1: Hmm, my office is organized.

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Speaker 4: Ish, that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: But somebody else wrote in here that space can have ways.

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Speaker 4: We know that.

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Speaker 6: You know, you can feel gravitational ways. We detected those.

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Speaker 6: So if something can have ways in it, does that

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Speaker 6: mean it's like a fluid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good deep question.

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Speaker 6: Like if you can make ripples in it, it's sort

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Speaker 6: of does that mean it is a fluid? I guess

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Speaker 6: you can make ripples in a gas too, or a solid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Liquids have special kinds of mathematics that describe them,

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Speaker 1: and that's what we're going to dig into. And there

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Speaker 1: are even people who have tried to build liquid analogies

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Speaker 1: of space time and liquid analogies of black holes. He's

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Speaker 1: a guy in Israel who builds sonic black holes.

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Speaker 6: Sonic black holes. That sounds like a good definition for

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Speaker 6: our podcast. We're soundways good to die.

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Speaker 1: I hope we're not just speaking into the void. I

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Speaker 1: hope there's somebody out there listening. Maybe we're hawking radiationing

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Speaker 1: our ideas into the universe.

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Speaker 6: You mean, like we're fish in a fish tank. Maybe

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Speaker 6: hopefully our soundways are you going out there beyond the

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Speaker 6: fish tank.

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Speaker 1: I have some evidence that there are people out there listening,

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Speaker 1: and we're not trapped into a sonic black hole because

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Speaker 1: we get responses from listeners. So if y'all are actually

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Speaker 1: out there and we're not trapped in a sonic black hole,

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Speaker 1: right back to us and confirm.

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Speaker 6: What if we're all in your mind, Daniel? What if

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Speaker 6: we're all multiple personality aspects of you? Plot twist? It's

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Speaker 6: like the plot of an m. Jamelon movie.

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Speaker 1: I always wanted to be in one of his movies,

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Speaker 1: so I'd be pretty happy with that outcome.

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Speaker 6: But one of our responders here also ass an interesting

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Speaker 6: question like if space is a fluid, what is the

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Speaker 6: fluid in, Like what is it occupying? Is something holding

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Speaker 6: it like a jar or a fissible.

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Speaker 1: Or some sort of super space Like revealing the fundamental

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Speaker 1: nature of space time really just opens us up to

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Speaker 1: the next level of questions, like if space is a fluid,

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Speaker 1: or if space emerges from something else, and that other

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Speaker 1: thing and emerges from is more fundamental, and now we

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Speaker 1: can focus all of our energy on that thing. It

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Speaker 1: might be a never ending cycle or we're just digging

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Speaker 1: deeper and finding deeper and deeper layers of reality. We

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Speaker 1: don't know if we'll ever find some sort of bedrock

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Speaker 1: fundamental nature to the universe or not, or we can

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Speaker 1: always just ask, well, what's that made out of or

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Speaker 1: what's that sitting in?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, goes on forever, and so let's start to dig

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Speaker 6: our way through it. Daniel, let's explain what is space time?

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Speaker 1: So the short version is we just really have no

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Speaker 1: idea what space is. Boom and done.

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Speaker 6: All right, thanks for joining us. It is a kind

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Speaker 6: of a black hole. See question, Yeah, good a diet

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Speaker 6: on our podcast.

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Speaker 1: One of the most confusing things about it is that

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Speaker 1: we have very crisp and clear pictures of what space

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Speaker 1: might be in the theories that we have built up

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Speaker 1: about the universe, and as we've talked about in the

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Speaker 1: podcast many times, we have like two pillars of modern physics,

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Speaker 1: two different sets of ideas that have helped us answer

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Speaker 1: questions about what's going on in the universe. We have

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics and we have general relativity. They're fundamentally inconsistent,

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Speaker 1: and they each give us a very different picture of

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Speaker 1: what space might be and how it works. So one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest puzzles is like trying to bring these

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Speaker 1: two things together to give us at least a unified

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Speaker 1: picture of what space is. But as of now, nobody's

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Speaker 1: been able to do that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, there are two different views, so let's do one

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Speaker 6: of them at a time. What is space time according

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Speaker 6: to quantum mechanics or does quantum mechanics even call it

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Speaker 6: space time? Or does it treat space and time differently?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, quantum mechanics treat space and time very differently. It

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Speaker 1: treats space as the backdrop for quantum fields, as that

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Speaker 1: space is filled with these fields that can oscillate, and

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Speaker 1: we have great equations that describe exactly how they oscillate

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Speaker 1: in buzz, and you can use those equations to explain

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Speaker 1: how electrons fly through space and how they radiate photons

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Speaker 1: which are absorbed by other particles. And so far it

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Speaker 1: seems like a super duper accurate description of what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the universe. We've done amazing experiments to validate

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Speaker 1: this description of the universe and compare it to quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics predictions, which agreed to like eight or nine decimal places.

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Speaker 1: It's really super impressive. But the picture of space and

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics is just sort of like the backdrop. It's

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Speaker 1: where the fields are. You know, we do the mathematics

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Speaker 1: of quantum field theory, we write these fields as a

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Speaker 1: function of space. We say every location in space has

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Speaker 1: a value of these fields, or if it's a vector field,

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Speaker 1: multiple values. There are like these numbers embedded in space.

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Speaker 1: The time is different. Time just tells us how those

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Speaker 1: fields change. And one really important thing about time in

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics is that it should be infinite. Like quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics says that the universe should always existed and should

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Speaker 1: always exist because information in the universe can't be lost,

444
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 1: it can't just go away. And so if you take

445
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 1: the shorten your equation, for example, and use it to

446
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 1: describe the universe, you can run it backwards and forwards

447
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: in time to infinity. And that actually tells you something

448
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 1: about space itself, because it says that's space should have

449
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 1: always existed throughout the whole universe. That's sort of the

450
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: quantum mechanical view of space time.

451
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 6: I feel like quantum mechanics. I feel like you're saying

452
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 6: that quantum mechanics is still basically stuck in the same

453
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 6: view of space as Newton was, kind of right like

454
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 6: before general relativity and Einstein. We just thought space was

455
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 6: this big emptiness. It couldn't change. It was like a

456
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 6: giant warehouse, you know, couldn't change or move or ripple

457
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 6: or anything like that. It was just fixed. Space was fixed,

458
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 6: and then you had time making things move forward in time.

459
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 6: And so quantum mechanics sort of started from that, and

460
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 6: it didn't really kind of think about what space could be.

461
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 6: It's sort of still stuck in that Newtonian or classical

462
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 6: physics view of space.

463
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: I think the broad strokes of that are definitely true.

464
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: There's a couple of sort of interesting and important caveats.

465
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: One is that we have succeeded in making quantum mechanics

466
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: act relativistically in some cases, like behaving with the rules

467
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: of relativity, Like we can describe the motion of super

468
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: duper fast quantum particles. Take an electron accelerate to almost

469
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 1: the speed of light, or protons at almost the speed

470
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: of light, and then you need like relativistic quantum mechanics.

471
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: But that's special relativity. That's just dealing mostly again with

472
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: flat space. So we can bring sort of special relativities

473
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: view of space time into quantum mechanics. But you're right. Fundamentally,

474
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 1: we're still just talking about things happening in the backdrop

475
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 1: of space. The other important thing to understand there is

476
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: that we have to add these things to quantum mechanics.

477
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics doesn't naturally have the sort of symmetries and

478
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: laws that we find in the universe. For example, you

479
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 1: can build quantum mechanics without a constant speed of light

480
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: or an invariant speed of light. We know that out

481
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: there in the universe the speed of light is the

482
00:22:58,600 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: speed of light is the speed of light, no matter

483
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: or who's measuring it or what the setup is. But

484
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics doesn't require that. It's not like built in.

485
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't fall out of quantum mechanics naturally. So something

486
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 1: you have to add on to quantum mechanics, and that

487
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: we've been able to do we haven't been able to

488
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: do is make quantum mechanics consistent with curving spaces, to

489
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: make a quantum version of general relativity. That's the part

490
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: we haven't been able to do yet. But you're right,

491
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: it still sits in the sort of Newtonian backdrop where

492
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: space is the stage on which things happen.

493
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 6: So quantum mechanics, maybe their view of space. It's vieospace

494
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 6: kind of matches maybe what most people think of a space,

495
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 6: or at least what you know, anyone who's had a

496
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 6: high school education in physics would think of a space.

497
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: Weird stuff happens in that space, according to quantum mechanics,

498
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: but the space itself is just sort of like the

499
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: playground on which that weird stuff happens.

500
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, Like nothing weird happens to space itself.

501
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also that space really is Newtonian in the

502
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: sense that it doesn't have a lot of the symmetries

503
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: and principles that Einstein showed us that it does have,

504
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: like respecting the speed of light and all sorts of

505
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: relativistic invariances. Hmmm.

506
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: Interesting.

507
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 6: All right, well, let's get into what general relativity says

508
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 6: that space is and whether or not we could ever

509
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 6: match it up with phantom mechanics, and whether that could

510
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 6: mean that space is a fluid. So let's get into that,

511
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 6: But first let's take a quick break.

512
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563
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565
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566
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568
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569
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,879
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570
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571
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579
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580
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 6: All right, we're talking about the question of whether space

581
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 6: time is a fluid and whether that would mean that

582
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 6: you can drink it, and what kind of straw what

583
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 6: you need?

584
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 4: Do you need a space time straw?

585
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: What's a good mixer for space? I wonder something dark?

586
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, dark dark vodka, dark tequila. I don't know, maybe

587
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 6: some kalua pick your poison.

588
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 1: I think maybe some cream because space is pretty dark,

589
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: so you gotta lighten it up a little bit, you know.

590
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: I'll take my space with some cream and sugar, please.

591
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 6: Or if it's a fluid, I guess that means you

592
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 6: can flush it. Can you flush space space time? You

593
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 6: sort of can write down a black hole.

594
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: Maybe black holes are sort of the toilets of the universe.

595
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: That's true.

596
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, they suck in a lot of dark matter.

597
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: They actually don't, but it's a good joke.

598
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 6: Well, how do you know, I guess that's the topic

599
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 6: of a different podcast.

600
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's a really fun question.

601
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 6: But here we're talking about whether space time is a fluid,

602
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 6: and we talked about what space time is according to

603
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 6: quantum mechanics, which is pretty much the same view that

604
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 6: Newton had the classical physicsab about space. But then at

605
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 6: some point at the beginning of the twentieth century, I think,

606
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 6: came along and said, wait a minute, space time is

607
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 6: not like fixed and immovable. It it does things, It

608
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 6: has properties of its own.

609
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Einstein showed us that space is dynamic. It's not

610
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: just a flat backdrop to the universe. It participates in

611
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: the motion of the universe, in everything that happens. You know,

612
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 1: as I think John Wheeler said, mass tells space how

613
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: to mend, and space tells mass how to move. That

614
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: means that if you have a mass and a certain

615
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: part of space or a bunch of energy, then it

616
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: curves space itself. And Einstein's big realization was that what

617
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: we think of as the force of gravity isn't actually

618
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: a force. It's just due to our inability to directly

619
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: see the curvature of space, which is affecting how things

620
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: are moving. So the actions that we attribute to the

621
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: force of gravity are really just inertial motions of objects

622
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: through curved space. And his conception of space is this

623
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: incredibly fascinating sort of curved manifold, this sort of like

624
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: shape that has features to it. It's curved here, it's

625
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: not curved there. But it's really totally different from the

626
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: conception of space in quantum mechanics. It's not just a backdrop, right,

627
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: It's not just like here's something that's happening at this

628
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: location in that location. The locations themselves now have interesting relationships,

629
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: like instead of just having a grid and every point

630
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: is equally spaced, those points can have weird relative distances,

631
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: like this point is actually closer than that point on

632
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: the grid, and these two points, which are super far

633
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: apart in the universe normally, can actually be adjacent to

634
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: each other. That's what a wormhole is. So really general

635
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: relativity is telling us that space can do this weird

636
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: thing about changing the relative distances internally between the points

637
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: that affects the motion of objects through it, and they

638
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: also discovered all these fascinating symmetries, like there's a maximum

639
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: speed of information through the universe. That was one of

640
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: the other big revelations in Einsteinian gravity, which contradicts Newtonian

641
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: gravity that said that information propagates instantly according to Newton's gravity.

642
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: So Einstein's view of space is this smooth, continuous, but

643
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: dynamic thing that really plays a role in the universe.

644
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: It doesn't just sort of sit in the background and

645
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: provide a frame.

646
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Eislin was able to kind of

647
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 6: revolutionize that video space. And I wonder if you or

648
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 6: we know how that came about, Like what was the

649
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 6: thing that set them off in that direction? Was it

650
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 6: basically observing what happens out there in nature that the

651
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 6: speed of light doesn't change. And if you start from there,

652
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 6: then you can sort of put together this idea that

653
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 6: space time can bend and ripple.

654
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: Well, there are many stages in Einstein's thinking. The first is,

655
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: as you describe special theory of relativity, trying to understand

656
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: the Michaelson Morley experiment that showed that the speed of

657
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: light was the same in every direction, and also trying

658
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: to understand some puzzles in electromagnetic theory at the time,

659
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: like why a static electron gives an electric field, but

660
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: an electron in motion gives an electric and magnetic field.

661
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: Like it seemed like what was happening there dependent on

662
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: your perspective. So Einstein was trying to resolve all of

663
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: these puzzles. We have a whole podcast episode about that,

664
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: and that's what led to the special theory of relativity,

665
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: the idea of the speed of light being maximum and

666
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: information propagating at a certain speed and time not being

667
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: the same everywhere in the universe. That was already a

668
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: big step forward, but then it took like another ten

669
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: years for him to come up with the general theory

670
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: of relativity that's the one we're describing here, which is

671
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: about how space is curved and that curvature can explain

672
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: gravity for him. That came from puzzling over this question

673
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: about like why is gravitational mass The massive controls how

674
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: much we get pulled on seem to be exactly the

675
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: same as our inertial mass, the one that determines how

676
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: much we accelerate when we get pushed, Like the mass

677
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,239
Speaker 1: in f equals m versus the mass in Newton's law

678
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: of gravity. Why do those two things seem to be

679
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: the same. So Einstein sort of made that connection and

680
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: realized that they're really all bound up in the same idea.

681
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: Was able to explain all of it by changing space

682
00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: into a curved object or space time or space time. Yeah,

683
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: and there's a really important consequence there, Right. If Einstein's

684
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: theory of space is correct, then you can also track

685
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: it backwards in time and say, look, the universe is expanding,

686
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: and that means that we can go backwards instead. The

687
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: universe used to be hotter and denser, and in Einstein's

688
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: theory at least, that means that space and time can

689
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: have a beginning, right, Unlike in quantum mechanics infinite in time,

690
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: Einstein's theory says that space could have had a beginning,

691
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: that there could have been a moment when there was

692
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: no space. So these are really very contradictory views of space.

693
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics view says time is infinite and space has

694
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: always existed. General relativity allows for a universe where space begins, and.

695
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 6: So that brings us to maybe the biggest I guess

696
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 6: conflict in physics. The conflict between quantum mechanics and general

697
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 6: relativity and how they treat space. And this conflict is

698
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 6: kind of theoretical but also very conceptual. Like you said,

699
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 6: it's about, you know, whether time can begin or have

700
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 6: a beginning, whether time can bend? Is the conflict here

701
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 6: mostly theoretical, like we can't make the theory work or

702
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 6: do you think it's something maybe more fundamental, that maybe

703
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 6: the properties of space change once you get to a

704
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 6: certain size level.

705
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we definitely cannot make the theories work currently, Like

706
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: people are trying from all sorts of directions to unify

707
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: these things. One set of theories is saying, well, let's

708
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: take quantum mechanics and try to do it in curved space,

709
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: and that actually kind of works, like if you have

710
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: space that already curves for other reasons, we do know

711
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: how to do some quantum mechanics of particles moving in

712
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: curved space. We don't know how to do is show

713
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: how quantum mechanics can make space curved, like to get

714
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: that curvature just from the particles, to show how like

715
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 1: having a bunch of electrons in one place will make

716
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: space curved. When people try to do that, it gets

717
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: really complicated and hairy, and you get all sorts of infinities.

718
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons is that gravity's are real

719
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: mest to do calculations with. If you emit gravitons, gravitons

720
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: feel gravity, and they emit more gravitons, which emit more gravitons,

721
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: so it very quickly gets out of control, sort of

722
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: like the strong nuclear force. We were talking about, how

723
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: luons emit gluons, which emit gluons, which makes it almost

724
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: impossible to do those calculations. But gravity is even trickier,

725
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: and so people have really failed in trying to do that.

726
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: And from the other direction, people are saying, well, let's

727
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: take space and quantize it and say maybe instead of

728
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: the force being quantum mechanical, maybe space itself is quantum mechanical.

729
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: It's chopped up into little discrete bits. And this idea

730
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: also hasn't quite worked yet. Nobody's really been able to

731
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: bring these two things together mathematically. What you asked is like,

732
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: is this a mathematical problem or a theoretical problem? And

733
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 1: I think the answers are connected.

734
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 8: Right.

735
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: If we are able to come up with a mathematical

736
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: description that explains everything, we see in the universe and

737
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: sort of hangs together, doesn't give us nonsense. Then we'll

738
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: have a theoretical or philosophical question like what does that mean?

739
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: You know, how far do we have to go in

740
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: order to make that theory? Can we just try to

741
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: bring these two theories together or do we need to

742
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: dig a level deeper and start from something else which

743
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: can then explain what we're seeing on a larger level.

744
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 6: Interesting, I guess you'll just have a big fight about it,

745
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 6: and then wherever win in spins.

746
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: And I think one of the deepest questions really is

747
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: like is space itself the fundamental fabric of the universe?

748
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 1: Do we need to be building on top of space

749
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: or do we need to be tearing it apart and

750
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: trying to understand what it's made out of? Like, is

751
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: space itself fundamental? Meaning it just is it's like the

752
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: base layer of reality. Or is space emergent it's just

753
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: something that arises from something deeper and it's complicated interactions.

754
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 6: That's kind of I feel like that maybe that's a

755
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 6: separate question. Then this idea of whether quantum mechanics or

756
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 6: general relativity is right, right, it's sort of a separate

757
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 6: question like whether either one is right. We can also

758
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 6: ask the question like where does space come from?

759
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, it might be a path forward to giving us

760
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: these two different explanations of space. Space seems to be

761
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: kind of different in quantum mechanics and in relativity, And

762
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: instead of harmonizing them and trying to mash them together,

763
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: you might be able to explain them just by saying, well,

764
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: they're sort of both wrong. Neither of them are actually

765
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: the true descriptions of what space is. Space is something

766
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: deeper and weirder that can do these two kinds of

767
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: things the way. For example, fish scientists might argue and say, look, look,

768
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: ice is different from liquid water, which is different from gas.

769
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: They're just different, right, And we know, of course they're

770
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: all made out of the same thing deep down. This

771
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: is just different stuff that water can do. Ice is

772
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: not fundamental to the universe. Water is not fundamental to

773
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: the universe. Steam is not fundamental to the universe. It's

774
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: just an emergent property of water. If we can come

775
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: up with like a deeper understanding of what space is,

776
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: something beyond our understanding currently, maybe we can explain are

777
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: the quantum mechanical view of space and the general relativistic

778
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: view of space is like different phases of space, the

779
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: way we think about different phases of water having you know,

780
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: fundamentally inconsistent kinds of behavior.

781
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 6: Well, that's kind of what I meant before, is that, like,

782
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 6: you know, it's the conflict between quantum mechanics and general relativity.

783
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 6: Could it be explained by just like having space behave

784
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 6: differently at different scales. In the scale of planets and

785
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 6: black holes, it behaves like one way where you have

786
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 6: gravitation waves and it bends, but maybe at the level

787
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 6: of small particles it behaves differently.

788
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly the right direction, and a lot of

789
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: people are pushing that way, Like can we start at

790
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: a lower level and come up with a more fundamental

791
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: description of space and then as you say, it turns

792
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: into quant mechanics at this scale or turns into general

793
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: relativity at that scale, and fundamentally what that means is

794
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: that both are wrong. Instead of trying to start from

795
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: general relativity and ad quantum mechanics, or start from quantum

796
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: mechanics and add general relativity, you sort of throw both

797
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: out the window and say, let's start from something deeper

798
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: and try to reproduce both of them, but neither of

799
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: them fundamentally would be correct in that picture.

800
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 6: Well, you want to throw them out. That sounds very negative,

801
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 6: and I feel like a lot of work has gone

802
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 6: into those It could just be that they're both right.

803
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 6: They're just right at different scales perhaps, or in different situations,

804
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 6: like we still use Newtonian physics to calculate the path

805
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 6: of baseball when you throw it in or something like that.

806
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, they both work, right. They're effective theories in that

807
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: they give good predictions in certain situations. But what we're

808
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: trying to do is understand the deep nature of the universe.

809
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: Then they're not like philosophically true. I think our final

810
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: goal is to get a description of the universe that

811
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: we think mirrors what's actually happening out there. Like conceptually

812
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: describes the laws of the universe itself is like actually following.

813
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: So in that sense, general relativity and quantum mechanics wouldn't

814
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: reflect what's actually happening out there in the universe. Though,

815
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: you're totally right. They're very useful and they're very effective,

816
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: the same way we use like fluid mechanics to explain

817
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: what happens when you flush your toilet and it works.

818
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 7: Right.

819
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: It's very good. It helps us avoid lots of ugly disasters.

820
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean we should stop doing it, But it doesn't

821
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: mean that the assumptions behind fluid mechanics are the right

822
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: way to think about the reality of the universe.

823
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 6: Well, my toilet seems to flush, brother or not, I

824
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 6: understand the fluid dynamics. Fortunately, Otherwise, you enough.

825
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: You put enough dark matter in there, and I promise you.

826
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 4: It won't flush. Then you need dark energy to push

827
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 4: it through.

828
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: Suggest that to your plumber and see how that goes.

829
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 4: Oh, there you go.

830
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 6: That could be a good name for plumbing business dark plumbers.

831
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: Dark plumbers. That sounds like a CIA operation.

832
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, or SITH operation more like.

833
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. If that van is parked outside your house, I

834
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: would suggest moving.

835
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 6: If your plumber brings out a lightsaber. First of all,

836
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 6: super cool if you totally take a selfie with your plumber,

837
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 6: But they might damage the plumbing.

838
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but also see if you can dunk. I hear

839
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: the Jedi really good at basketball.

840
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 4: Well, would they be dunking with a toilet?

841
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 8: I don't know.

842
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: This analogy has gone off the rails.

843
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 6: All right, Well, let's tackle maybe the question that we

844
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 6: started off with, which is is space time a fluid

845
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 6: like space time flow I guess and swirl or get

846
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 6: flushed down a toilet, Daniel.

847
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 4: Where does this idea come from?

848
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: This comes from an attempt to try to explain the

849
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: nature of space, as we talked about, as not fundamental,

850
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: but something that emerges from a lower level of reality.

851
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: And it says essentially that maybe space is like water.

852
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: It's made out of some smaller pieces that follow very

853
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: very different rules, and that our experience of it is

854
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: sort of like the experience of water. We really are

855
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: like the fish scientists. That space itself is made out

856
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: of some smaller bits we have yet to discover, and

857
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: those bits interact with each other in a way that

858
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: follows the laws of fluid mechanics. That our understanding of

859
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: fluids and water actually might be able to be applied

860
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: to space itself. Space emerges from some weird quantum bits,

861
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: and those bits come together in a way that can

862
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: be described by fluid mechanics.

863
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of like the idea.

864
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 6: Then maybe there's like a superspace and inside of that

865
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 6: superspace is what we call space, and that it's actually

866
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 6: made up of like little bits of space, meaning like

867
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 6: when I think I'm moving through space, or when a

868
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 6: particle thinks it's moving through space, it's actually like maybe

869
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 6: hopping between bits space. Is that that's kind of the idea, right.

870
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: That's kind of the idea, And it's also attractive from

871
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: the point of view of explaining some of the symmetries

872
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: and the invariances that we see, Like we don't understand where,

873
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: for example, this law of the speed of life comes from.

874
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: Why is there a maximum speed of information in our

875
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: universe in quantum mechanics, We just don't see that, right,

876
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't exist in the theory of quant mechanics. Something

877
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: we had to add two quantum mechanics sort of by hand.

878
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: But if space is an emergent phenomena, if it comes

879
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: from the weaving together of these weird quantum bits, they

880
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: might be able to have the maximum speed of information

881
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: sort of emerge from those laws the way that like

882
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: water as a liquid can do things that water as

883
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: an individual particle doesn't do, or that water as a

884
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: crystal can do things has properties that water as an

885
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: individual particle doesn't do. Maybe these invariances in these symmetries

886
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: sort of emerge with space. They're the properties that come

887
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: when space comes together to form these liquids. And fundamentally,

888
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: you're right, it's like these little bits space sort of

889
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,439
Speaker 1: woven together, and it's fascinating to think about, like how

890
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: you weave space together to make it a liquid. It

891
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: says that you start from a universe where all you

892
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: have are like weird little quantum bits. You have these locations,

893
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: but they don't sort of exist in space yet. They

894
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: just sort of like are there, and then they get

895
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: quantum entangled with each other, which sort of connects them.

896
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: Then things that are really tightly quantum entangled with each

897
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: other we call those things close to each other. Things

898
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: that are loosely quantum entangled, we call those things further

899
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,439
Speaker 1: from each other. Things that are not entangled at all,

900
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: are like out of your light cone completely. So you

901
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 1: sort of like build space up by quantum entangling all

902
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 1: these weird little sort of non space bits, and space

903
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: itself comes out of all those things working together.

904
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think maybe the idea is like maybe

905
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 6: as you're moving around these space bits, there are rules

906
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 6: about moving through these space bits that maybe explain things

907
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 6: like the speed of light limit in our universe, right, Like,

908
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 6: maybe if I'm switching between space bits, there is a

909
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 6: certain cost to that, and then that would explain the

910
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 6: limit of the speed of light. And that's kind of

911
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 6: what you're saying, is that maybe these things that we

912
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 6: think of as fundamental phenomenas or properties of the nurse

913
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 6: could just be like the little tiny rules between space

914
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 6: bits that make up space exactly.

915
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: So that picture, which is more like a sort of

916
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: quantum space foam, says you build space out of these

917
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: little bits, and the rules that we observe sort of

918
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: come out of the arrangement of those things. They're not

919
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: fundamental to the bits themselves or sort of how you

920
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: put them together. This new theory says, well, maybe space

921
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: isn't like a foam. It's kind of like a foam,

922
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit different. You don't use the

923
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: mathematics of foam. Instead use the mathematics of liquids. Say,

924
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: space isn't like a grid that's woven together with quantum entanglements.

925
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a little bit of a different physics there.

926
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: And what's happening is that these little bits of space

927
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: can sort of like slide past each other, they can

928
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: like flow around each other. They can do things that

929
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 1: foam or crystal can't do. This actually leads to slightly

930
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: different predictions for the behavior of space, and one of

931
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: them is that the limit on the speed of light

932
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: is not actually absolute. It's like approximate. That light doesn't

933
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: always travel at the speed of light. There might be

934
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: like very small variations there.

935
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 6: I see the ideas, and maybe these bits of space

936
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 6: that space is made out of aren't connected to each other,

937
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 6: Like they're not linked together like you might link like

938
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 6: a chain mail or a chain link fence. Maybe they're

939
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 6: just kind of like floating out there in some super

940
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 6: meta space and they can actually kind of slosh around

941
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 6: and move relative to each other.

942
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 4: Is that the idea.

943
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: That's sort of the idea, though what you described sounds

944
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: more like a space gas. Think about like a crystal

945
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: where the bonds between the atoms are really really strong, right,

946
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: that's sort of like our idea of a space foam. Now,

947
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: relax those bonds a little bit, and you have like

948
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: a space liquid. You're writ things can slide past each other,

949
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: but they're not totally ignoring each other. There's still interactions

950
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: between those space bits, which is how fluid effects emerge.

951
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: If they were totally disconnected, you have like a collisionless,

952
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: non interacting gas of space bits, then you would expect

953
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: very very different kinds of behavior. This theory says, instead

954
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: of having space like a rigid crystal of locations that

955
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: are fixed to each other, loosen it up a little

956
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: bit and let those flow, not completely where they're ignoring

957
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: each other. There's still sort of some bonds between them,

958
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,919
Speaker 1: but let them flow a little bit, and it leads

959
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: to different predictions for how light moves through this sort

960
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: of liquidy space.

961
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 6: Well, I guess what does that mean? Does that mean

962
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 6: that as I'm moving through space, if the space liquid

963
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 6: happens to be moving, then I'm going to move differently

964
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 6: through it? Or would I even notice if the liquid

965
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 6: around me is flowing.

966
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: When things move through liquid, they move in a different

967
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: way than when they move through a solid, right, And

968
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: a solid is more rigid, and so it's sort of

969
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: better at propagating waves, right, which is why like sound

970
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: moves faster through your table than it does through the air.

971
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: In denser materials, things are more tightly bound, sound moves faster,

972
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: So things in space time liquid would move differently than

973
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: things in sort of a space time foam or space

974
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: time crystal, and specifically, it would mean that it slashes

975
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 1: a little bit, so there'd be like a dissipation that

976
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: if you shoot a super high energy photon across the universe,

977
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: instead of it getting to the other side of the

978
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: universe with the same amount of energy, it would lose

979
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: some of that energy to like this slashing of space itself.

980
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 6: Hmmm, sounds like we're all in a hut tub. I

981
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 6: feel like you're saying the universe is just a nice,

982
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 6: bubbly hut tub that we're all relaxing it. All right, Well,

983
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 6: let's talk about what makes us think that the universe

984
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 6: or that space time can be a fluid, and whether

985
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 6: we have any evidence of it, and if we do,

986
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 6: what would that mean about our understanding of how everything works.

987
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 6: So let's get into that, But first, let's take another

988
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 6: quick break.

989
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,959
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

990
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

991
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

992
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are US. Dairy

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Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustain ability goals, including being

994
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Speaker 1: greenhouse gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're

995
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

996
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

997
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Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

998
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Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

999
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Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

1000
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

1001
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Speaker 1: the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

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Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

1003
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

1004
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Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

1006
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Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

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Speaker 1: usdairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

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Speaker 6: All right, we're asking the question can space time be

1030
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 6: a fluid? And it sounds like this is the idea

1031
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 6: that we're all just sitting in a hot tub somewhere.

1032
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 6: This is a hot tub time machine. Universion of the Eaders.

1033
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 6: We started out with an office space as a comedy

1034
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 6: and now we're in space time machine could be the sequel.

1035
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: Me you, Barack Obama, and Yoda all sitting in a

1036
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: hot tub understanding in the nature of space time.

1037
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 4: That's an awesome picture.

1038
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 6: And I can't wait for our listeners to draw and

1039
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 6: draw on his fan art.

1040
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: Or maybe if Obama is a listener to the podcast,

1041
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: chill write in and you know, come and join us

1042
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 1: on our acoustic hot tub that is this podcast.

1043
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 6: And also we can finally answer the question what happens

1044
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 6: if you turn a lightsaber on inside of a hot tub.

1045
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 1: Or maybe he's got an opinion about whether he could

1046
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: beat Yoda in one on one basketball.

1047
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 6: Mm, well, Obama seems like a humble guy. I don't

1048
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 6: think he would try to take on Yoda.

1049
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 1: He is respectful, that's true.

1050
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 6: All right, Well, I guess this is an interesting idea

1051
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 6: that space time can be fluid, that maybe it's not

1052
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 6: fixed out there in the universe. Maybe it's thing that

1053
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 6: can slow, that it's made up of little bits that

1054
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 6: kind of move relative to each other. And now Daniel

1055
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 6: Dewey have any inclination that this theory is through? Does

1056
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 6: it match up well with some observations that we have

1057
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 6: in experiments or is it just an idea out there

1058
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 6: that we think that maybe one day could possibly explain things.

1059
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: At this stage, it's really just an idea, but there

1060
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: are some fun experiments we can do to try to

1061
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 1: test it. So it's not just an idea of people

1062
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: are having in hot tubs. It's something people are out

1063
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: there really working on trying to verify because it does

1064
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: make some very cool predictions. And there's sort of two

1065
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: categories of experiments. There's experiments we're doing up in the sky,

1066
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 1: like looking at things out in the universe, and also

1067
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: things people are doing in the lab to try to

1068
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: make like sonic black holes to study them. The first

1069
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: one has to do with how light propagates through the universe.

1070
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: As we said earlier, there are rules about how fluid behaves,

1071
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: and if you shoot something through fluid, it will lose energy,

1072
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: it will dissipate its energy. Fluids have these two properties.

1073
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: It's called dissipation where you lose energy over time, and

1074
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: dispersion where things that different energies travel at different speeds.

1075
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: And so that's not something we've seen in space. Like

1076
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: if you shoot photons across the universe, currently we think

1077
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: they arrive with the same energy as when they left,

1078
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: like they never get tired. We've also seen that photons

1079
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 1: at all different energies, red photons, blue photons, green photons,

1080
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 1: infrared photons all travel at the same speed. So people

1081
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: are trying to understand if this is really true, because

1082
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: if space time was a liquid, then those would be

1083
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: broken a little bit. Photons would lose a little bit

1084
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: of energy as they move through the universe, and red, green,

1085
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: and blue photons would travel at slightly different speeds. So

1086
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,479
Speaker 1: they're trying to do this experiment, though it's tricky because

1087
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: we don't have like a huge laser pointed at the

1088
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: Earth to let us do this experiment.

1089
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 6: Sounds like a dastardly plot for a superheroin slash experiment.

1090
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: Though we almost do have a huge laser. There's this

1091
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: thing up in the sky called the crab Nebula, which

1092
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: is an excellent source of really really high energy photons.

1093
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 1: It's shooting photons at us up to like eighty terra

1094
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 1: electron volts. Remember, the Large Hadron Collider, the most powerful

1095
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: human accelerator on Earth, only gets things up to like

1096
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: six and a half or seven terra electron volts. So

1097
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: this thing is shooting photons at us more than ten

1098
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: times the energy of the LEDC, which makes it a

1099
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 1: great way to study how photons propagate through the universe.

1100
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 6: It sounds like you have a lot of ideas for

1101
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 6: disproving this crazy theory, But I guess my question was

1102
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 6: more like what makes us think that this crazy theory

1103
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 6: could be true? Like is there something that it predicts

1104
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 6: that maybe matches up with some unexplained phenomenon in space.

1105
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: We don't need this theory to explain anything that we see.

1106
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: It's just an attempt theoretically to try to harmonize our

1107
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: idea of the universe, to come up with a new

1108
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 1: explanation for what's out there, sort of from the bottom

1109
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: level up, to explain how we end up with general

1110
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: relativity and how we end up with quantum mechanics. But

1111
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 1: you know, you can't just describe something theoretically and say

1112
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: here's my description of the universe. You also have to

1113
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: make predictions that can be verified and tested to see

1114
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: if this is what's really happening out there. So we

1115
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: don't need this to explain any results of experiments. We

1116
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: don't have any experiments where quantum mechanics and general relativity

1117
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: disagree because those experiments are essentially impossible to do, But

1118
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: it does make predictions that we can test, so that

1119
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: we can prove or disprove this theory.

1120
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 6: I guess what I mean is like, does this crazy

1121
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 6: theory actually make quantum mechanics in general relativity play well

1122
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 6: together or we just think it might, or does it

1123
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 6: actually harmonize everything.

1124
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: If it's true, then it does allow for us to

1125
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: derive sort of general relativity and quantum mechanics from one source.

1126
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: All the math is not completely worked out, Like there

1127
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: is no completely well worked out theory of quantum gravity

1128
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: from which you can get the effects of general relativity

1129
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: and quantum mechanics. This is sort of like one direction

1130
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: people are working in, and there's a series of recent

1131
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: papers sort of thinking about the consequences of it, Like

1132
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: we don't have all the details worked out yet, but

1133
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: if this theory is true, it would have these consequences.

1134
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: Let's go check and see if we can see those

1135
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 1: things happening in the universe, because if we can, that

1136
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: means we're on the right track.

1137
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 6: I know not I mean to tell you how to

1138
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 6: do your business, but like before you point a giant

1139
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 6: laser of the Earth. Wouldn't we want to make sure

1140
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 6: that that this is a theory that is going.

1141
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 4: To be worth doing that, do you know what I mean?

1142
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 6: Like, I would see how it would be important to

1143
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 6: verify this theory, but only if it made things work.

1144
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 4: But it sounds like we don't even know if it's

1145
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 4: going to make things work.

1146
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: We don't know if this theory of a space time

1147
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: fluid actually works theoretically, right, in the same way that

1148
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: we don't know as string theory works fundamentally. People are

1149
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 1: still working on it, but we'd also love to have

1150
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: ways to test string theory, to verify its predictions, to

1151
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: understand if we're on the right track or not. And

1152
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: also sometimes getting experimental verification provides clues it like says, oh,

1153
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: you have a whole different set of ideas about this theory, Well,

1154
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 1: the experiment prefers this one or that one, so we

1155
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: can give you some guidance sometimes. So it's nice when

1156
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: theory and experiment can sort of work hand in hand.

1157
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't develop a complete theory of the

1158
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: standard model before we build our first particle detector, right,

1159
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: We sort of do it in increments, and we get

1160
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: clues from experiment and then ideas from theory, and it's

1161
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 1: sort of like a tag team.

1162
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 6: Well, at least with the Higgs boson, I feel like

1163
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 6: that theory was sent and kind of worked out, and

1164
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 6: there were predictions of it, and then then you went

1165
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 6: off and built a giant thing.

1166
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is one example of success from having a

1167
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: theoretical idea. But of course that theoretical idea came from

1168
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 1: experimental observations that we didn't understand at that time, right

1169
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: seeing the W and the Z were massive and the

1170
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: photon wasn't and not understanding that, and so we got

1171
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 1: to do is go out there and do a bunch

1172
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 1: of experiments and look for weird stuff. Sometimes you get

1173
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: a confirmation of the idea you had, and sometimes you don't.

1174
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 6: Are you trying to say that when it comes to

1175
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 6: space sight being a fluid, you just got to go

1176
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 6: with the float.

1177
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 4: You don't want to flush it all down.

1178
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: Well, I do think that these results from the crab

1179
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 1: nebula are super awesome. I mean, they look at these

1180
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: photons and they try to measure whether there's any like

1181
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: change in the energy spectrum, the kind that you would

1182
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: expect if space time was a fluid. And they didn't

1183
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: see any which means that you know, space time might

1184
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: still be a fluid. But if it is, it's a fluid,

1185
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 1: it's like super duper slippery. Like the fluid effects, these

1186
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: like friction, the effects where you're losing energy as you're

1187
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: moving through space time are very very small. So like,

1188
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: maybe space time isn't a fluid, maybe it's say superfluid.

1189
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 6: Ooh, it has superpowers kind of meani like it doesn't.

1190
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 6: It's not like a thick guy fluid. It's almost like

1191
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 6: supernatural fluid.

1192
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, superfluids are like superconductors. They have almost no friction,

1193
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: they flow very very smoothly. So if space time is

1194
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: a fluid, then it has to have like very very

1195
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: slight fluid effects.

1196
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 6: So we do have an experiment or an observation at

1197
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 6: least it says that space time is not a fluid.

1198
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 6: Then it might still be a superfluid, but it's definitely

1199
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 6: not a fluid. Is that what the observation says?

1200
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like thick, chunky soup. That's for sure

1201
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: that we can rule that out. If it is a fluid,

1202
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: if space time does follow these properties and bubbles up

1203
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 1: from something deeper and has fluid like effect that would

1204
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: be very very very subtle. But it doesn't mean they're

1205
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: not right. You can always rule it out to some level.

1206
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: But there's sort of another direction we can approach this,

1207
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: which is to try to do experiments on Earth to

1208
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: understand whether this theory even holds together. And there's a

1209
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: guy in Israel, the Technion who builds these sonic black

1210
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 1: holes try to understand like how gravity might emerge from

1211
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: a fluid theory of space time. He's notices a lot

1212
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: of similarity mathematically between how waves propagate in fluids and

1213
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: how waves propagate in curved space time. So what he's

1214
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: done is he's experimentally built a weird kind of fluid

1215
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 1: that has strange behaviors that are very similar to the

1216
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: behavior of gravity, to the point where he's even built

1217
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: a fluid with what he calls an acoustic horizon. I mean,

1218
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: he generate sound waves that cannot escape this weird little

1219
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: blob inside his fluid.

1220
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 6: WHOA, So wait, he's like building fluids out of real atoms,

1221
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 6: like real materials, and using that like a lego model

1222
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 6: of what space might actually be.

1223
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying, Yeah, exactly, he's doing what

1224
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: they call analog gravity. He's like, if the mathematics of

1225
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: this works for space time, it should also work when

1226
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: you put other things together. So instead of doing experiments

1227
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: using space time bits, which we don't know how to manipulate,

1228
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: it's like, let me do it with other kind of bits.

1229
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: So he does it with rubidium atoms, and he builds

1230
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: these Bose Einstein condensates, and he gives them all sorts

1231
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: of weird properties so that the sound waves moving through

1232
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: those rubidium atom fluids should operate the same way photons

1233
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: move through the space time liquid. So he's actually successfully

1234
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: built what they call an analog black hole. It's not

1235
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: a literal black hole, but it has similar properties in

1236
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: that fluid to photons moving through space time.

1237
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 6: That feels like a little bit of a stretch, but

1238
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 6: I guess I trust see that it's an interesting way

1239
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 6: to study the I feel like you're building a model

1240
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 6: and trying to say that, like, if it works for

1241
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 6: my legos, it works for quarks.

1242
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's definitely made some very bold claims, and there's

1243
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: a lot of controversy about what it means, but it's

1244
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: definitely fascinating. So the fascinating thing about this is that

1245
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: they're not black holes. Black holes don't emit light. These

1246
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,479
Speaker 1: are like silent holes because they don't emit sound right,

1247
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: there's like quiet holes.

1248
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 6: They're like the uncomfortable silence in social situations. It's like,

1249
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 6: what would you even say if you're the hot tub

1250
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 6: with Yoda and Obama, it would be a sonic black

1251
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 6: hole as well.

1252
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: It might be a little awkward.

1253
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, all right, Well, it sounds like this is a

1254
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 6: super fascinating theory and kind of challenges our views of

1255
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 6: space time itself, Like maybe the fundamental platform of the

1256
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 6: universe isn't what we think it is. Maybe it's something

1257
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 6: that sits inside of an even bigger meta or super

1258
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 6: space platform or environment. And these are interesting ideas that

1259
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 6: might bring together quantum mechanics in general relativity.

1260
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 4: But stay tuned.

1261
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 6: Experiments so far say that maybe space isn't a fluid,

1262
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 6: but that maybe the hut tub of the universe is

1263
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 6: actually a super hot tub of the universe.

1264
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And these ideas take a while to bubble up

1265
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: too perkoly through the brains of humans, And it might

1266
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: be that one day we look back at our understanding

1267
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: of space time and think, wow, we were so foolish.

1268
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: We didn't even understand the liquid we were swimming in.

1269
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, it sounds like we need to soak on it

1270
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 6: for a little bit longer.

1271
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: I always prefer to soak rather than scrub.

1272
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 6: Just don't do it with a lightsaber. I guess all right. Well,

1273
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 6: we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See

1274
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:22,439
Speaker 6: you next time.

1275
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1276
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1277
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:41,800
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1278
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