1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. I am Ben. I am joined 4 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: with our super producer Casey Pegram our guest producers Andrew 5 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: Howard and Max Williams. I'm pointing at them, but they're 6 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: not in the room. I'm just I'm trying to be 7 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: a visual thinker. Uh, you know you guys. You guys 8 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: know me by now if you don't know me, but well, 9 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: whatever my writer died Nol, as I said previously, is 10 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: off on some advent yours. So I've been immensely fortunate 11 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: to gather some guest host You previously heard my pal 12 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: h Matt Frederick on a weird history of pointy shoes 13 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: that was ruined by the Quisters spoiler alert. But today 14 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: we're trying something is something different. This is fantastic journey 15 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: and I think it's an important one to know about 16 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: that doesn't get as much attention in the modern days 17 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: it should. It is a topic that I was not 18 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: going to explore on my own. I reached out for 19 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: some help from some of the experts and fellow Ridiculous Historians. 20 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: I am proud to announce you know her, you love her. 21 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: Today we're joined by the one and only Eve's Jeff 22 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: Code Eves. The crowd goes wild. Wow, what an introduction. 23 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: I love that. Yes, I am here, and I'm honestly 24 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: very happy to be here because this topic is something 25 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: I've honestly been dying to talk about it rather than 26 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: just like being in my own little stylo with it, 27 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: because it's something that I like have a personal connection 28 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: to that I knew nothing about before I realized that 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: I had a small personal connection to Um, which look 30 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: into in a second, I imagine get you know, Eaves, 31 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: We're always looking for excuses to work on stuff together. 32 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 1: You are a well known podcast, you're an executive producer 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: now you also write frequently for The Bitter Southerner, which 34 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: is a fantastic literary magazine down here in the Southeast. 35 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: And when we were talking off air, we're saying, well, 36 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: you know, we're hanging out, what kind of story do 37 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: we want to explore together? Peek behind the curtain, folks. 38 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: Eaves always has the best topics. So usually it's true. 39 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: Usually when we're talking about collaborating on something, I UM 40 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: and Eves I hope you don't think I'm lazy for 41 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: doing this. I just defer to you, and I'm like, well, 42 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: what should we what? What are you? What's on your mind? 43 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: And you came with this idea which, again, as we 44 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: had said, it's something that I and and probably many 45 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: other people maybe no a little bit about, like the 46 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: first paragraph of Wikipedia level or the headline level. But 47 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: what what is our story today and and what what 48 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: inspired you to look into it? Well, first off, I 49 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: don't want I want to say that that is not 50 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: lazy of you, because I mean, I think we're most 51 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: well attuned to talking about the things we actually care about. 52 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: So I feel like it's better for everybody for me 53 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: to come with something that I'm actually interested in. So 54 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take that. I'm gonna roll it back, roll 55 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: that stuff self deprecation back for you, and gonna say 56 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: that it's not lazy. Um, but we're gonna be talking 57 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: about turpentine today and my connection to it. Okay, I 58 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: feel like I worked it up a bit by saying 59 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: I have a personal connection. It's not that deep. It's 60 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: just that my mom told me one day that my 61 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: grandmother who's now passed, but she used to give my 62 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: mom turpentine like to ingest it. And I was asking 63 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: my mother a little bit more about it, and she said, oh, well, 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: I think it was you know, she would give it 65 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: to me when I felt sick or down, are are 66 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: ill in some way, And I really don't know much. 67 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: I don't know much more about how and why my 68 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: grandmother gave my mom's turpentine. But I was like, hmmm, 69 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: turpin tine. I mean, I think we all have those 70 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: those families stories where we hear about the folk remedies 71 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: and the specific to family remedies, and we know that 72 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: herbal medicine was big for a lot of people today still, 73 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: but specifically within black families, herbal medicine is something that's 74 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: pretty important because it's like what we had access to 75 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: and the things and because of government distrust and so 76 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: many other things um in that vein. But that's where 77 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: I got into it. So I was like, there has 78 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: to be more to this story, because there's always more 79 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: to the story, and I was just curious, and to 80 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: be quite frank, I was kind of ashamed that I 81 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: didn't know more about the history of turpentine in the 82 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: South because I'm from the South. I was born and 83 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: Carolina raised in Georgia, some very southern girl, and I 84 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: was like, I should know more about his history. But 85 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: I'm being hard on myself, of course, because there's so 86 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: much that we don't know in this world, and whenever 87 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: we get an opportunity to learn more about it than 88 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: than we do, we do that that is inspirational, Eaves, 89 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: and I would agree, I think you are being a 90 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: little hard on yourself because I can tell you this, I, 91 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: like many people in the audience today, after our initial conversation, 92 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, I remember this, and then I was 93 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: excited about our story today, and then it occurred to me, 94 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: I was like, what is turpentine? You know? Like I like, 95 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: I've heard of it and I remember it being referenced 96 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: in things, and I know it has a number of 97 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: different industrial uses. But you're absolutely right. I love the 98 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: point you're bringing up to um. A lot of people 99 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: don't acknowledge that in historically oppressed and this enfranchised communities, 100 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: there's a synthesis or almost a syncretism of known, established 101 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: natural remedies for things meeting with institutional racism, like the 102 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: systemic discrimination against black populations that occurs in the medical 103 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: community today. Even so, it's funny because I didn't know 104 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: that your personal experience as a folk remedy, it's not 105 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: It's not an uncommon one back in the day. And 106 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: I just so you don't feel alone in the grandmothers 107 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: and fulk remedies things. I'll confess to you. My grandmother, 108 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: one of my grandmother's, My family hails from Appalachia, so 109 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm Southern by root as well. One of my grandmothers, 110 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: who is a teetotaler, kept whiskey around in the house 111 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: as a medicinal thing, and one more than once I 112 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: had an earache and she put whiskey in my ear. Wow, 113 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: how do you think that? How do you think that 114 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: affected you? Do you think that there are any side 115 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: effects you can point to later in life? Now, well, 116 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: I'm probably going to our number one bar and chicken 117 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: wings spot the local after this. I'll probably drink whiskey, 118 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: but I'll try with my mouth this time. That's funny, 119 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: um No. But also to be clear, I'm not denigrating 120 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: folk remedies at all. Like, of course, there's a lot 121 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: of breath of folk remedies, and some of them work 122 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: for some things. Some of them don't work for other 123 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: Some of them are probably things you shouldn't do, period, 124 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: but there is validity to a lot of them legitimacy. 125 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: And I am a big proponent of making sure that 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: we honor that kind of secondary knowledge that we have, 127 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, and also remember to think about who studied, 128 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: who was doing the studying. When it comes to things 129 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: that are actually verified by you know, longitudinal studies and mainstream, 130 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, widely accepted science, it's like, who was studied 131 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: in those studies and and how are they being legitimized? 132 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: And so I think there's just a lot of depth 133 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to things like giving your children turpentine 134 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: and whiskey. And it's not to say that that the 135 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: people who were doing these things were ignorant. They weren't stupid, 136 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: they weren't even misguided necessarily. It's just, you know, a 137 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: matter of what work for them, and what they had 138 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: access to and what they had knowledge of. So I 139 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: think that's the case in turpentine. And I'm not completely 140 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: clear on this and my specific family history, but I 141 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: just felt I was like, well, turpentine was huge in 142 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: the South. There must be some sort of convenience element here. 143 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: Where it was like, that's what my grandmother gave my mother. 144 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: Because it was still prevalent. You know, people always heard 145 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: about it, people heard about The one thing that came 146 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: up when it to its medicinal use was having purgative qualities, 147 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: which is like, that's something that you know you often 148 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: need to do, is purge when you're sick. So yeah, 149 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: it's just it was there, and so that's something that 150 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: I wonder about, and it kind of let me deeper 151 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: into this hole of just wondering how it moved through 152 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: the South and what its effect was and and how 153 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: that came to be. So yeah, it has plenty of 154 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: function too, like outside of medicinal remedies. And also from 155 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: what I understand, it's not just ingested orally for medicinal purposes, right, 156 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: It's also it's almost like a vixed vapor rub sometimes. Yes, 157 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: So when I was taking notes on it, when I 158 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,599 Speaker 1: was reading about all the things it's been used for, 159 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: I was like, it's kind of like an all like 160 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: all purposes baking soda, because I used baking soda for 161 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: everything in my house. I'm like, oh my god, I 162 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: love baking, so I've been give it to me. But 163 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of seems like people treated turpentine in that way. Um. So, 164 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: some of the things that it's been used in is paint, center, varnishes, furniture, wax, 165 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: lamp oils. The list really goes on and on when 166 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: it comes to the person has been used externally and 167 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: internally for things like hemorrhages, epilepsy, yellow fever, tapeworm, rheumatism, 168 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: respiratory disease, so so many different things. Also has been 169 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: described as having been used rectily for people with worms, 170 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: hemorrhages and stuff your gas. So it wasn't it wasn't 171 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: just topical and ingested through the mouth as well, So 172 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: there was a lot of variation in how it was 173 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: taken into the body. So yeah, household items, you know, 174 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: in an industrial processes and in medicinal practices. It's just 175 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: kind of like an all encompassing thing. And when I 176 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: was looking it up, ingesting turpentine was in the news 177 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: a few years ago because Tiffany Hattish brought it up saying, 178 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: I put it on sugar cubes or something, and I 179 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: take it. It's great. I use it for the cold colds, 180 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: I use it for all these things. And it was 181 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: a rash of like you know, cautionary articles that came 182 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: up after that saying don't do it. You know, turpentine 183 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: or turpentine can be like, you know, terrible for you, 184 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: especially particularly in large doses. It has side effects and 185 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: smaller doses as well though, So yeah, it can you know, 186 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: lead to things like bleeding in the lungs, kidney damage, 187 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: and I don't think death is that common, but of 188 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: course anything not in moderation, you know, it can can 189 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: be it. And that's the case with turpentine. So when 190 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: you and I were looking into the history of this substance, 191 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, just to be clear when for anyone wondering 192 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: what is turpentine, it's a form of distilled resin right 193 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: from tree shap. Yes, yes it is. So there's a 194 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: whole process um that we can get into when it 195 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: comes to actually describing how turpentine is extracted from trees. 196 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: But it comes from pine trees and the work can 197 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: be pretty laborious, but it does take skill to do it, 198 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: Like there's specialized knowledge that you kind of need to 199 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: have to be able to work in it, as are 200 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: so many things. You know, you do something for a 201 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: long time and you're immersed in it. Then you have 202 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: this knowledge that seems very easy to the people who 203 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: are doing it for so long, but outside of it, 204 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: it's it's not. That's not necessarily the case. So you 205 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: extract it from trees. They have different parts of the 206 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: process called boxing, where you cut a hole in the 207 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: tree and then cornering and then the sap kind of 208 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: bleeds or not staff excuse me, the gum bleeds from 209 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: the tree, and it's collected in those boxes. And then 210 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: the workers would go and collect that from the trees 211 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: in buckets, and then they would take the buckets and 212 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: they would dump those into barrels, and then it would 213 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: be transported off and turned into other things from there. 214 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: So the tree is an amazing resource for so many things. 215 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: You know. Once more, the thing that we're really you know, 216 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: exploiting the tree for turns into so many other things 217 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: that have so many uses for us in our cushy existences. Yes, yes, 218 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: so I love that you're talking about the process of finding, collecting, distilling, 219 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: creating turpentine, because our story today is not just I 220 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: want to be candid, this is a story that like 221 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: I knew almost nothing about. I knew that turpentine was 222 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: made in the South. Like I knew the American South 223 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: is one of the places that would create turpentine. But 224 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: other than that, I was tabu larassa. I had no. 225 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: I had no idea that there is such a long 226 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: and deep story that you know, you could argue has 227 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: ripple effects here in the modern day in one, especially 228 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: in our neck of the global woods. So what you know, 229 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: when we say, when we say this story, I feel 230 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: like I'm beating beating around the pine tree here. So 231 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: we know turpentine, it's been produced in the American South, 232 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: and it's like our story is a little bit more 233 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: about that than it is about turpentine the substance. So 234 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: do you want to kick us off here? Eves? Where 235 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: where are we traveling to? Back in time? Okay, so 236 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: picture this? No, I'm just kidding U. Though. The history 237 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: is very long and very rich, long sect relatively obviously, 238 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: because the US is you know, the history of the 239 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: US as a quote unquote nation is pretty sure in 240 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: the history of the South, you know, goes back only 241 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: a certain amount of time, but within that time span 242 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: since we started, since we became a nation, since the 243 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: American Revolution, the whole history of turpentine in the US 244 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: South goes back to before then, so to the seventeen 245 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: hundreds and went up to today. It still has effects. 246 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: So there's a whole history which we don't need to 247 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: get into, of how turpentine was produced here. It was 248 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: often very low quality. But we when we were in colonies, 249 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, we would we had a whole setup. We 250 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: were shipping back to Europe because their whole situation over 251 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: there wasn't the best where they were getting their supply from. 252 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: And so they said, we have colonies, you know, why 253 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: don't we just get them to do it. Look at 254 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: all these forests that are there. So that's kind of 255 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: where the industry started, and then it picked up a 256 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: lot from there. It peaked in the later eighteen hundreds 257 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: to the early nineteen hundreds. But that, like I said, 258 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: that history spanned from like the seventeen hundreds on up 259 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: to the nineteen sixties and seventies, and then the remnants 260 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: of those things are still in place today when comes 261 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: to what the population looks like and what the land 262 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: looks like. And I think the story the larger story 263 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: here and that what you know, I think you're trying 264 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: to get at is that there is so much wrapped 265 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: up in in it in the history of turpentine in 266 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: the US South, because it was related to race, the 267 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: story was related to economics, the still the story was 268 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: related to the social and cultural history of the region 269 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: and of the land itself. You know, you have to imagine, 270 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean, if if we're telling a story about a 271 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: natural resource in the South, that those things will be 272 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: wrapped up into it. So I think when we first 273 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: started talking about this, people are probably like, yeah, I 274 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: could imagine there's probably gonna there's probably gonna be some 275 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: sort of history of all those things in there, because 276 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: that's just what the era and the region lends itself to. 277 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: And then that is the case. Um. So just to 278 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: kind of set up the definition in the beginning here, 279 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: is that there were naval stores, is what they call them. 280 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: And they called them naval stores, and you know that's 281 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: related to the history of the turpentine camps um. But 282 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: they call them naval stores because they were products that 283 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: were used in ship building, and they came from the 284 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: long leaf and slash pine trees. Those were the best 285 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: trees that they could work from, and really the long 286 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: leaf was the preferred tree that people would like to 287 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: use for these naval stores, but the term naval kind 288 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: of just did relate to that industry, even though the 289 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: products were used in different industries, because it was used 290 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: so much in ship construction and maintenance and that was 291 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: kind of the focus of where those supplies were being 292 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: sent at the time, and that included tar, raw turpentine, 293 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: and then their derivatives, which is spirits of turpentine and 294 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: then rosen and pitch. This does tie into, as you said, 295 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: some complex sociocultural things that have to be addressed and 296 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: should be given i think more space and conversation. So 297 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: when we're looking at like as as you said, here, 298 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: we're we're picturing ourselves as England back in the day 299 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: for a world concrete empire. They definitely needed a lot 300 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: of foreign resources. So a lot of the stuff that 301 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: England was doing as an empire was based on resource extraction, 302 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: was based on being able to you know, control colonial 303 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: populations to bring to England the stuff that they didn't 304 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: have on their archipelago. So if we imagine the time 305 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: period we're describing, and we're looking at the South in particular, 306 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: then we see a huge agricultural industry and it's often 307 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: mono agricultural, right. We've got some like plantation owners who 308 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: are focusing entirely on using forced labor to grow like 309 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: a single crop, you know, whether that is cotton, whether 310 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: that is like in the Caribbean, it might be sugarcane, 311 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And several of these plantation owners, from 312 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: what I understand, around the time there were improvements in 313 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: the distillation process in the eighteen thirties, several of those 314 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: folks started looking at or those institutions started looking at 315 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: the demand for what was known as naval stores and thinking, 316 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, pardon my French, Holy pine trees are everywhere. Yes, absolutely, yeah, 317 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: So pine trees are everywhere. If you're not familiar with 318 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: the US South, there's a bunch of pine forests in 319 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: the coastal plain of what were the Southern Colonies are 320 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: the U s South States now, and there was a 321 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: lot of long leaf pine. As I said, that was 322 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: a preferred species. So it stretched through the forest in Virginia, 323 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: through North and South Carolina, through the Florida Panhandle and 324 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: the northern Peninsula of Florida, and through southern Alabama and 325 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: Mississippi and parts of Louisiana and Texas. So this whole 326 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: kind of if you just draw that backwards ill along 327 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: the coast of the eastern and southern United States, that's 328 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: where a lot of the long leaf pine was and 329 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: a lot of those forces were great for just exploiting 330 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: for the purposes of naval stores. And as you said, well, okay, 331 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: let me let me first say this is an aside, 332 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 1: but honestly, one thing that I liked about digging into 333 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: this is that I despise pine trees. So so like, 334 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 1: as you said, we have a lot, and there are 335 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: a lot in my backyard, and when I moved to 336 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: this place, I had like five of them cut down. 337 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: I was just like, oh, you know, because they were, um, 338 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: this sounds very privileged and it is, but like you know, 339 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: if they're very tall, and so their hazards as well. 340 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: But they just shed so much. So one aside of 341 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: like digging into this was me really gaining a greater 342 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: appreciation for the pine. But that just leads into me saying, 343 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: we have a lot of them here. And the naval 344 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: stores industry first dive looked on a large scale in 345 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: North Carolina the abundance of naval stores that were produced 346 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: in this day is the thing that gave it his nickname, 347 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: the tar Hill state um and the first to the 348 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: workers who were covered in tar and pitch. So yes, 349 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: there was a lot of overlap between well. Slaves were 350 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: involved in in the naval stores industry highly highly heavily 351 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: before the Civil War they made up most of the workforce. 352 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: But yes, plantation owners also play a big role in it, 353 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: so they controlled a large portion of the naval stores industry. 354 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: In the South, a significant percentage of the manufacturers owned 355 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: more enslaved people than the average slave owner did. And 356 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: in a book called Tapping the Pines by Robert Outland 357 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: the third he says that of all manufacturers owned more 358 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: enslaved people than average slave owners, and many on two 359 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: to three times as many. So they were very intertwined. 360 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: And in South Carolina and in North Carolina especially league 361 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: conditions were perfect for profiting from tar making because in 362 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: North Carolina there weren't many other export commodities that could 363 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: compete with enaval stores, and lumber wasn't as profitable there, 364 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: and naval stores could also there were this thing that 365 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: could be worked throughout the year, so conditions were just perfect. 366 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: In North Carolina for that being a successful production space 367 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: for them, and it just you know, blew up in 368 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: the South from there kind of moved south and west 369 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: as they the destruction. You know, imagine like just a 370 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: path of destruction from North Carolina and down when it 371 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: came to the pine forests, because once they ran out, 372 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: they went to the next place. And it's like, we 373 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: gotta make more money, we gotta we gotta continue this industry. 374 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: So we're just gonna, you know, do it where we 375 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: can just keep keep moving. So it's like economically driven 376 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: natural disaster. Yes, I mean yes, and it's and it 377 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: has still you know, shows its effects today. There were 378 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: things that happened, like for us that in grow back 379 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: and towards the end of it, they had to use 380 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: younger pines which weren't as great for the industry, and 381 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: so many things like that. But that is some of 382 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: the background of the like you know, the way that 383 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: it started and it and it continued to move throughout 384 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: the South. One thing I did want to go back 385 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: to because I want you to know, I'm a big 386 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: nature lover. Ye, I wanted to from that perspective. I 387 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: wanted to reassure you there's nothing wrong with hating. Okay, 388 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: thank you, not one. It just needs to be said aloud, 389 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: like especially the really tall ones. Yes, if you've ever 390 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: if you've ever been in the south there lived near 391 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: a pine forest, and seeing those things in a storm 392 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: or implement weather, it's not cool. Yeah, they wave everywhere, 393 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: They're very bendy, and they also have a really instead 394 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: of a really deep root system that's more vertical, they 395 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: have a really shallow, a comparatively shallow roots system that 396 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 1: goes across so you can see. So if you hit 397 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: the wrong kind of storm and down here you can 398 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: see a pine tree, just move from vertical the horizontal 399 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: pretty quickly, take a little bit of dirt with it, 400 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: and just say, hey, I'm glad my car wasn't there. 401 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: So I think you're I think you're doing all to day. 402 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: I think you're spot on. And then and the sap, 403 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: the sap or the gum or whatever you call it, 404 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: it's everywhere, it's everywhere. The needles are insane. And yeah, 405 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: so I too, am a nature lover, but I like 406 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: to respect them from a distance. You know, I'm kind 407 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: of like halst nature. I'm still half city girl because 408 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: I grew up in the Atlanta area, So it's like 409 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: in my backyard. Cool. But I love hiking. I love 410 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: like being entrenched in the forest. So I'm like, yeah, 411 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: y'all are great there, but here, you know, we can 412 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: we can love each other at a distance. That's how 413 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: I feel. Yeah, I'd like it. Uh yeah, that's that's 414 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: how I prefer possums for instance. Also, it's very common here. 415 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, it's awesome that you're alive over there, bro, 416 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: It's awesome, awesome. So what we're seeing is a pattern 417 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: that has occurred with multiple other industries that occurs today 418 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: with things like the palm oil industry, right, which is 419 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: going through huge swaths of wilderness and back in the 420 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: period of time in the area of the world that 421 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: you're describing, we see. I love that you describe as 422 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: that backwards l because that's really that really is how 423 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: it how the pattern seems to expand. This occurs concurrently 424 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: with the rise of what we would call turpentine labor camps, 425 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: like turpentine camps, meaning that these are populations people entirely 426 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: dedicated to the turpentine naval stores industry. Like it's not 427 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: like something where the workers live at a camp seasonally, 428 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: because as you said, this is a year round business. 429 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: People and their families are living at a main camp 430 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 1: until the resources exhausted. Is that correct, Yes, that is correct, 431 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: and then once those resource is exhausted, they would just 432 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: kind of move on to the next place. And there 433 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: were it was a little bit a little bit different 434 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: before the Civil War and then after the Civil War 435 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: because of emancipation specifically, but it wasn't that different. Um. 436 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: There were things that changed, like technology and the way 437 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: production happened, but a lot of as we know within 438 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: in general, you know, we know about the direct line 439 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: from slavery to mass incarceration. Um, So a lot of 440 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: the practices that were done under enslavement still happened after emancipation. 441 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: And that was the case in the turpentine industry. So 442 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: just to kind of describe the way it was for 443 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: a second. And as you said, the turpentine camps, which 444 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: were these camps that were specifically dedicated to extracting the 445 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: gum from the trees and so they weren't really involved 446 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: in the distillation process. They would send those that raw 447 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: turpentine away for other people to deal with. The also, 448 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, in their own ways terrible and grueling and 449 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: laborious and hazardous, often processes that came with working in 450 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: the stills. But yes, so at the camps themselves, the 451 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: conditions were pretty poor and before the Civil War there 452 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: were a lot of enslaved people who were um, I 453 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: was gonna say employed, but they were not employed because 454 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: they were not paid. The enslaved people who worked the camps, 455 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: and there were also more impoverished white people who worked there, 456 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: and there were also immigrants, specifically Eastern European immigrants that 457 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: would work the camps, but it was largely enslaved people, 458 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: and it was also very largely men versus women and children. 459 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: Women and children really weren't super involved at the Turpentine camps, 460 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: but you know, there were workers would go through this process. 461 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: They would have long days of doing the boxing and 462 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: doing the cornering and doing the scraping and all of 463 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: the various processes that came along with the actual work 464 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: of laboring with the trees. And housing was crude because 465 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: it was meant to be temporary, because you know, like 466 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: we talked about, the production was just open move after 467 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: one place was exploited, and there were a couple of 468 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: different systems that were used when it came to life 469 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: and working in the camps, well in under slavery in general, 470 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: which was the task system and the gang system. So 471 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: in the gang system, enslaved people were just kind of 472 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: assigned work and they were expected to do it as 473 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: a group. And then under the task system, which is 474 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: what happened mostly at Turpentine camps, individual enslaved people worked 475 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: at and it got an assigned job because you have 476 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: to imagine, you know, we know what the forces are 477 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: like today, their dents, they're huge, and they were even 478 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: more so then, and they were very isolated. And people 479 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: worked in those in the Turpentine camps under that task system, 480 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: which gave them relative keyword, relative relative autonomy versus how 481 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: it was under the sang system because they were assigned 482 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: the task individually and they worked in more of a 483 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: spread out way than they would do so where they 484 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: have more close communication under something like a gang system. 485 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: So just imagine these people working the trees, using their tools, 486 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: having their gallon buckets, being out here in a very 487 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: socially isolated way, and you know, being subject of course 488 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: to the things that happened under enslavement in other industries, 489 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: like there was a gross, a very gross and calculated 490 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: balance of punishment and reward for work. So punishments of 491 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: physical pain would be the ones that made them increase 492 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: their effort but did not promote carefulness. And then when 493 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: it came to rewards, they were the things that increased 494 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 1: care rather but reduced efforts. So these same sort of 495 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: mental manipulative things that happened under enslavement also happened ends 496 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: the turpentine camps. And then the overseers were called woods rider, 497 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: which is honestly a great word. It's just not like 498 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: I love that word itself, but everything else that it 499 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: entails and that is underneath that word is not great. 500 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: But woods Riders sounds like, I don't know, something out 501 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: of a fantasy novel, I think is why big vibes like. 502 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: It's like I was thinking the same thing, you know 503 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: what I mean, where it would not be out of 504 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: place in song device and the woods Riders arrive at 505 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: exactly send the woods Riders, but yes, um, but less cool. 506 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: They were overseers. They rode through the forest on horses, 507 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: and they were see to it that workers were doing 508 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: their jobs. So yeah, um, I could go on and 509 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: on about the conditions there, but I won't, but just 510 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: as an example of what they had to deal with 511 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: and indoor because of the labor that they were doing 512 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: and it the way it was set up is that, 513 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: for instance, there was it was hard to get clean 514 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: running drinking water in the forests, especially during draw spills. 515 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: The stuff that was there was stagnant obviously, stuff you 516 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: don't want to get like dysentery and time and like 517 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: other things that are bad that come from um drinking 518 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: bad water. I don't even know if dysenterry is one 519 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: of those things, uh, parasites whatever, um. So they didn't 520 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: have clean running water, so sometimes they would use straws 521 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: that they brought in didn't drink the water that was 522 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: collected in turpentine boxes, the boxes that were in the trees, 523 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: which as we know, can Ingesting turpentine can lead to 524 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: intestinal and abdominal issues, so it's likely that this caused 525 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: some sickness in them, but was probably not fatal. But 526 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: there were other hazardous conditions that came with working in 527 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: the camps and later the stills, because fires and explosions 528 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: were common in the stills, because of the type of 529 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: work that it was, because of what they were dealing with. 530 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: And then there was a wildlife like just what we 531 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, what we would all deal with in the forests, 532 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: like the snakes and the ticks, um. And then there 533 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: was the heat and the humidity of the region. And 534 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: then there was the expansiveness of the forest, which meant 535 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: that the people would get lost sometimes. There were stories 536 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: of workers getting lost in the woods, and you know 537 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: there there was a story of one guy who got 538 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: lost in then he eventually died because he had hunger 539 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: and thirst. So yeah, um, not great conditions at all. 540 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: And you're also being exploited in so many other ways 541 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: beyond just the condition of the work itself. Yeah, and 542 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: this so I have to say, eaves that the description 543 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: and I don't know why, but especially the idea of 544 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: someone being lost lends itself well to a horror story plot. 545 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: You know. Yes, I am like this is like, this 546 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: is something that I'm working on right now, honestly, Like 547 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: I I don't know about horrors per se, but I 548 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: think about this a lot because I also um for 549 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: people who don't know. But I know, you know, Ben, 550 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: I camp and I backpack, so I do spend a 551 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 1: lot of time in the woods and like reckoning with 552 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: fear that comes with being in the woods, especially as 553 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: a person who is like largely sheltered because I live 554 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: such a privileged life. You know, I have a house. Um, 555 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't have that. You know, I 556 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: have food and the half of the table, and so 557 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: it's just like it throws you out of your element 558 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: and then you realize that this is just people's day 559 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: to days, still today and was in the past in 560 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: so many different ways, under so many different circumstances, and 561 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: so yes, it's it's like a horror. It's it's it's horror, 562 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: it's terror because as the horror of the landscape to 563 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: the terror of society that was being you know, you 564 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: were being affected at um affected by at the time, 565 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: and it's just yeah, brutal and horrifying. So yes, that 566 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: is a good way to describe it. Yeah, it's it's 567 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: a it's a harrowing experience. And you know, earlier you 568 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: hit on something that I always love to bring up 569 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: on the show. We're talking about just like full remedies, 570 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: the idea. You know, it's it's tempting for people in 571 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: one or the modern era to look back at events 572 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: of yesteryear and look kind of a skance at them 573 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: or down their noses at the people involved. But the 574 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: people who are alive in these times and centuries in 575 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: millennia past were no different from us. They were just 576 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: as intelligent, and they were just as fallible. They were 577 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: worked like us. They were working with the information they have. 578 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: So whenever I hear somebody say something like, oh, it's 579 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: dumb that people didn't know insert fact here and blah 580 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah, but my question is what is 581 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: always what dumb stuff are we doing right now? Or 582 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: what stuff are we doing that future historians will look 583 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: back on as ridiculous. One of my nominees is neckties. 584 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: I know this might not affect you as much as 585 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: it affects me, but it's just why are we still 586 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: doing this? Why are we insisting upon this charade? But anyway, 587 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with it. And I do 588 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: know the history. I think it's like certain Bosnian soldiers, Yeah, 589 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: they're like, what do you call the vestigial organs or 590 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: you know, like those things that that that we still have. 591 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: We're like, I don't need those like um, So I 592 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: have to think about that a little bit longer because 593 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: I feel like there are a lot of things that 594 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 1: I ball at. Then I'm like, this makes no sense, 595 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 1: like why are we doing this this way? But I 596 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: would definitely have to think about that. I know one thing. 597 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: I don't think this is that related, but I always 598 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 1: think about batteries. I just feel like we're never moving 599 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: fast enough with batteries and people are And if you're drinking, 600 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, why are you? Why are you still plugging 601 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: things in with chords? Why are you? Why are we 602 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,919 Speaker 1: still here? Why does it take an hour for you? 603 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: You know? I feel like maybe that's kind of related, 604 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: But I have to think about that a little bit more, 605 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: and I'll come back to you. That we live in 606 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: a world of wires, you and me, especially right now, 607 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: just because we're we have our homes setups, and I 608 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: think about that too. I'm like, you know what's gonna 609 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: stand out in films that are set in this time period. 610 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: It's gonna be the wires, It's gonna be everything. Like 611 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: another thing. Um, I don't want to guess too far 612 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: off topic, but another example that I think you might 613 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: enjoy or might terrify you next time you're driving is 614 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: future historians are going to think, I'm not going to 615 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: overuse this word, but are going to think it is 616 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: ridiculous and cartoonish that we hopped in these metal machines 617 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: that can go over eighty miles an hour and we're 618 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: within like three feet of each other going at this 619 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: speed and it's all supposed to be fine because there's 620 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: this honor system of painted lines on the road. And 621 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: if you try to explain this to someone from the future, 622 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: the first question would be like, oh, that's crazy. How 623 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: did it stop people from hitting each other? And your 624 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: answer has to be he didn't. Human error still existed. Yeah, 625 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: I've one feel you on that. And also not to 626 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: go too much on a tangent, but it's something that 627 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: I think about a lot because I think about how 628 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: okay this is, this is very deep into my my 629 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: personal thought world. But okay, but how how much we feel, 630 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: say I feel like as human beings, as human humanity, 631 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,879 Speaker 1: Like sometimes in society we can a lot of times 632 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: say that we don't trust people, but like every day 633 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: we wake up and step outside of the house, we 634 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: have to infinitely trust everybody else that we come in 635 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: contact with to not destroy us. Like the one thing 636 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: that we can say we have in this life, I 637 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: think is trust, because otherwise we will be in a 638 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: corner all day long. And even that like this can 639 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: be fuzzy. So I actually think about you know, I 640 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: think about stuff like that a lot. Like we yes, 641 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: we do have to rely on other people just doing 642 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: the right thing and making a mistake, just buy their 643 00:36:53,680 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: own valiability, not not even on purpose. And when we 644 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: take when we take this back to the idea of 645 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: the Turpentine camps, even after you know, I feel like 646 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: it's something that thankfully everybody can acknowledge now, even after 647 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: the legal passage of emancipation, I would argue, even in 648 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: areas of the South where people knew it was coming, 649 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, people who were like had the reigns of 650 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: society at the time when they knew it was coming, 651 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: even before it had passed, they were already working assiduously 652 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: to create laws that made the day to day situation 653 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: still the same. And you know, for anyone who doesn't know, 654 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking that there were there were many, many communities, 655 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: communities of people who were enslaved who did not learn 656 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: about emancipation until years and years after the fact, because 657 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: that information was withheld from them. This happens like this 658 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,959 Speaker 1: is uh something that has to be acknowledge. We're talking 659 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: about this turpentine story because as you said, Eves, so 660 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: their emancipation happens, right, And there are people in communities, 661 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: some some very large camps. But like imagine you're a worker, 662 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: you work at a turpentine camp and you've been there 663 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: for years. As you said, this is a very not 664 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: to be too liam neesent about it, but it's a 665 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: very specific set of skills. Like if you're listening to 666 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: this and you don't have experience trying to do this, 667 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: then you're going to have a bad time for your 668 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: first like year. And I don't know exactly, I don't 669 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: know exactly how the apprenticeship worked because something that I 670 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 1: was thinking about as I was reading how they did that, 671 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: this was like what was the first once the ax 672 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: or you know the book it was handed to you, Like, 673 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: how did that look? How did you you know there 674 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: was There had to be a first time that you 675 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: did this thing, and it required skill and pract just 676 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 1: so I just wonder about that. But yes, um, it 677 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: looked very different before and after the Civil War, and 678 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 1: some of these practices continued, and some of those things 679 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: that they did was debt, peonage and convicts leasing. Well, 680 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: I feel like there's a better way to say that, 681 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: but the leasing of people who were considered convicts because 682 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: they have been convicted of a crime. So that developed 683 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 1: in the wake of emancipation, and the practices and the 684 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: people that were under them were subject to abuse. And 685 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: the link here and I always love when things are 686 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: like they have some link to me, even if they're 687 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: not great. It just makes history feel more real, you know, 688 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: And for me, that was that the leasing of people 689 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:46,959 Speaker 1: who were convicted of crimes was very, very prevalent in Georgia. Well, okay, 690 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't as prevalent as debt peonage was, but as 691 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: far as the places in the South, they happened a 692 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: lot in Georgia and Florida. So there were of course 693 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: other industries that relied on peonage as well. There were 694 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: past laws outlining outlawing it in the eighteen sixties, but 695 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: it continued in practice, as so many things do. Just 696 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: because something is outlawed doesn't mean that that the processes 697 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: and institutions just disappear all of a sudden. So it 698 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: was kind of you can think of as a continuation 699 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: of enslavement ponages when laborers have to pay off a 700 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: debt with work, and then sometimes those debts were paid 701 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: off quickly, and more often than not, workers got stuck 702 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: in that debt servitude when they couldn't repay the debt, 703 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: and then the ponage happened when they couldn't leave the 704 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: company the job because the producer was stopping them from 705 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: doing that. In some way, I was waiting for this 706 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: party is because this is this is coming up. You know, 707 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: history may not always repeat, but it rhymes. I was 708 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: thinking about company towns recently because there was some legislation 709 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: being floated in Nevada to create what they called innovation 710 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: zones and they were going to let tech companies fill 711 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: the role of local government. And I was I was 712 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: one of the hopefully many people just trash talking in 713 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: on the internet like there's no one remember the songs 714 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: like sixteen tons, like this is a bad look. And 715 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: what you've described here beautifully is this this horrific system. 716 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: It's like you're trapped in a Dave and Busters or 717 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: Chuck E Cheese, but instead of playing games and getting 718 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: paid in tokens. You do backbreaking labor and you still 719 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 1: get paid in tokens, and that's not real money. It's specie. 720 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: Your script. We've talked about the back we've talked about 721 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: in back episodes. But imagine like so, from what I understand, 722 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: and this is some of the research use, it means, 723 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: from what I understand, you would get a small living space. 724 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 1: It would not be a very well constructed living space. 725 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: You would get paid in whatever your fake currency was 726 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: on a monthly basis, and you would I think in 727 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds the amount you got paid was 728 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: based on how many trees you have. But the only 729 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,799 Speaker 1: way you could buy things you needed, like the only 730 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,720 Speaker 1: way you could buy Maybe in some cases the labor 731 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: camps actually provided you know, the turpentine related tools, but 732 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: as far as like your clothing, as far as your food, 733 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: other materials you would buy or other resources, you had 734 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: no choice because that isolation you talked about. You had 735 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: no choice other than the company store. It was not 736 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: a Walmart. It wasn't like you couldn't take a bus somewhere. 737 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: Um and those company stores specifically ad prices structured to 738 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: encourage debt peonage, so that it was too in the 739 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: mind of those what you call them producers, the system 740 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: is broken if people are able to get out of it, 741 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: which is insidious. It is honestly absurd. You know. It's 742 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 1: like it's like the bucket with a hole in the bottom. 743 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: It's like it's just it makes no sense, but it 744 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,479 Speaker 1: makes sense to them because the producers are the ones 745 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: who profit, and that's all the other concerned about. And 746 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: they don't care who gets exploited in the process. And 747 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: you know, from from the smallest exploitation to you know, 748 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: fatality um. And so the debt would actually you explain 749 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: that perfectly by the way ben and the debt would 750 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: start as soon as people were hired through things like 751 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: advanced wages. So, like I said earlier, some of those 752 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: people were immigrants who were coming from places like New York, 753 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,240 Speaker 1: and so there was a whole exploit exploitative system there too. 754 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: And the way that they recruited these people and they 755 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: set them up to go to the South and they're 756 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: like these people coming from a strange, stranger's land, you know, 757 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: coming to the United States, and they're like, I get 758 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 1: this opportunity, you know, just put yourself in their place. 759 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 1: And so you know, they would be like, Okay, you know, 760 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go do this work, and it will be 761 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: a total reversal when you got there and realized how 762 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: situation the situation actually was. So they would get these 763 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: advanced wages. Mind you, these these immigrants who were coming 764 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: would have to pay things like the transportation would have 765 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 1: to be paid for like, so the indebtedness started even 766 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: there um. But for people who weren't immigrants, who are 767 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: already in the area and didn't necessarily have to go 768 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: through that route, they would be set up with advanced 769 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 1: wages as well. So they would use to get food 770 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: from the commissary. So it would start off like that 771 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,720 Speaker 1: and it would continue like that. So they would continue 772 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: to use debt to keep these workers underneath their thumbs. 773 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: So in the book I was talking about earlier, that 774 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: kind of explained as this line between freedom and and 775 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: un freedom, you know, between freedom and enslavement. Because of 776 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: the way it was set up, it was like, yeah, 777 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: you're in debt, and maybe you're you're just constantly in debt. 778 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: There were oftentimes that the workers would owe the producers 779 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: hundreds of dollars and so they would continue on their 780 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: work in that debt, so it was just a rolling cycle. 781 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,399 Speaker 1: So the workers would get these tokens you would talk 782 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: about to purchase supplies, and then the account was debited 783 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: and then at the end of the month, the wages 784 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: were applied to the accounts. Okay, you get the wages, 785 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: and then maybe the wages were more than the debit, 786 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: so maybe you got that difference, but you would get 787 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: in in commissary screw you know, the fig money. But 788 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: if it was even you know, if there was no 789 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: credit on your part, you would have to borrow again 790 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,959 Speaker 1: to pay for the next month's expenses. So they owe 791 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: their employers, you know, it can be hundreds of dollars. 792 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: And then what happened was and this is where the 793 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,439 Speaker 1: pianage comes in, when they would try to leave. That's 794 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: when the worker could be like, Okay, maybe I'll let 795 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: you leave, but your new employment has to pay me 796 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: and they'll be fine. And then the other option was 797 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: that they were like, uh, you need to stay and 798 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: if you leave, I'm gonna bring you back, and then 799 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: not do it and not follow up on that, and 800 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: then they could follow up on that. It's like the 801 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: third thing that would happen is that they would be like, 802 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: you're not leaving, and I'm going to physically keep you 803 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: from leaving, and if you do leave, I'm gonna forcibly 804 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: bring you back, just like you know, back in the 805 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: days of enslavement, where they would send people off to 806 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,560 Speaker 1: bring enslaved people back. So it was, it was it's 807 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 1: just gross, like it's growth. Like, there's not really another 808 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:59,280 Speaker 1: way to describe it. Yeah, it's just really disgusting. I agree, 809 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: And we see, you know again, we see that pattern 810 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: where you know, there are protective laws written at a 811 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: federal state level in different places, but these laws, as 812 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,280 Speaker 1: well intentioned as they may sound on paper, they don't 813 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,239 Speaker 1: seem to have a lot of heft or teeth when 814 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: it comes to these historically disadvantaged communities, these rural areas 815 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: where corruption is it's a stereotype, but it's it's a 816 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: true stereotype. Unfortunately, corruption is endemic like it is. It 817 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: would be weird for the local law enforcement not to 818 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: just follow the lead of the richest guy in town, 819 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,319 Speaker 1: right because they work together as fingers on a hand, 820 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: they're part of this system that uh, the vultron is up. 821 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 1: And then if someone from outside, like if someone from 822 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: d C says, uh, you know, I like, hey, we 823 00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,400 Speaker 1: wrote a law about this. Then they'll just say, oh, yeah, no, totally, 824 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: that's absolutely what we're doing. And then they'll just wait 825 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,799 Speaker 1: until that contention is gone and they'll be back to 826 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,960 Speaker 1: their same unclean business. One thing that you set up 827 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: perfectly is at the top of this episode, you know, 828 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: you said, we see the effects of this in the 829 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: modern day. Could we maybe talk a little bit about 830 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 1: how these naval stores and turpentine camps declined, uh, and 831 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,359 Speaker 1: and like why why you You probably won't know a 832 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: bunch of people working at one today for sure. Okay. 833 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: So I guess I kind of start at the place 834 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: where you mentioned the laws that were happening. So there were, 835 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: like you said, laws that were like, okay, I'm gonna 836 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,600 Speaker 1: try to keep you from doing this. As we move 837 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,280 Speaker 1: into the late eighteen hundreds and the early nineteen hundreds, 838 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,040 Speaker 1: there was more movement when it came to people challenging debt, peonage, 839 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: challenging the fact that this was forced labor, that that 840 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: was the thing that was keeping the naval stores industry alive, 841 00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,840 Speaker 1: and there were people who were speaking up about it 842 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: and the treatment of people in these camps and the 843 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: brutality that was happening, because we didn't even get much 844 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: into that, but it's like, you know, you know, just 845 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: imagine there were terrible things that happened when it came 846 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: to the types of torturing and brutality. So all of 847 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: these things were kind of boiling up, like the consciousness 848 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: was happening there where it was Okay, this is this 849 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: is wrong, and we should probably try to do something 850 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: to stop it. And so that that had a hand 851 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 1: in the decline of the industry. A lot of the 852 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,839 Speaker 1: producers were investigated for violating the thirteenth Amendment. Forced labor 853 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 1: was challenged, like I said, and so was the leasting 854 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 1: of people who were convicted of crimes. And at the 855 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: same time, the forces were being exploited and depleted. And 856 00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,919 Speaker 1: that was the case. But there were also some people 857 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: who were like, yeah, that's fine, you know, it's just 858 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: a sinus civilization. This is what's gonna happen. This is 859 00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: what comes along with people developing the land and progressing 860 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: and things like that. But at the same time as that, 861 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 1: there were also technological advancements and production methods, and then 862 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 1: there was greater research and then there was more federal 863 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: assistance in the industry. So in that earlier kind of transition, 864 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the federal stuff benefited the producers. But 865 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,760 Speaker 1: then they're also came a point where it was like, okay, 866 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: like this is declining. You're losing your labor force. You 867 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: you're losing your your forced labor. You know. A lot 868 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: of the black people who were in the area were like, 869 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,279 Speaker 1: there are all these other things that are happening that 870 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 1: would be way better for me than working in this horrifying, 871 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: low paying, exploitative debt servitude, you know, go on and 872 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 1: go on and so forth of a condition that you 873 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 1: don't want to work and live in. UM, it's not 874 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: really doing anything for you. So they found other alternatives 875 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: and other industries like timber. So there was a lot 876 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: of competition as well for the people who could do 877 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: this kind of work. And we're willing to do this 878 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: kind of work and we're forced or not. I don't 879 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: want to use the work force because it wasn't forced labor. 880 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,040 Speaker 1: But this is the opportunities that were available to them. 881 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,279 Speaker 1: So the industry really strull during the Great Depression, as 882 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 1: many industries did UM and they did get some economic 883 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: assistance from the government. Also of note related to this, 884 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,879 Speaker 1: but the smallest side is that you can go on 885 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,279 Speaker 1: the Library of Congress's website and look up some of 886 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: the posters and the audio that was related to the 887 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 1: turpentine workers in the turpentine industry. There was actually UH 888 00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: federal theater project put on by the Works Progress Administration. 889 00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: They had a play that was called Turpentine by a 890 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,439 Speaker 1: guy named J. A. Smith and Peter Moral or Morale Yeah, 891 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,720 Speaker 1: And on a poster for it, it says a tale 892 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,879 Speaker 1: of the Florida Pine Forest and it was a three 893 00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: act play in ten scenes that depicted the mistreatment of 894 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: black workers in turpentine southern labor camps. I know that 895 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: because of a summary. I have not seen the play. 896 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,400 Speaker 1: Of course it was like the nineteen thirties, but I 897 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: am very interested in what that play was like. Like 898 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: I just when I saw that poster, I was like, oh, 899 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: like what I wish I could see that play, but um, yeah. 900 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 1: So just the point is that the effects of the 901 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: industry were such that they were even part of these 902 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,600 Speaker 1: kind of representative and artistic conversations, Like people were talking 903 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: about the conditions of the camps in that consciousness was 904 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: rising and on more towards the decline. In the nineteen 905 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:21,280 Speaker 1: thirties and forties, conditions were still bad and the gum 906 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: naval stores industry specifically suffered, while the wood naval stores 907 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: industries were kind of on the uprise, which was a 908 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: different mode of processing the would they would break the 909 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,000 Speaker 1: stumps down and extract the resident from it in a 910 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: different way that was more focused on the machinery. It 911 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,360 Speaker 1: didn't require as much human labor um and specialization of 912 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,080 Speaker 1: labor to do that kind of work that was done 913 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: with the gum naval stores. The process that we talked 914 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,879 Speaker 1: about and extracting from the trees very very arduous, very 915 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 1: intensive for the actual labor. So on top of that, 916 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:03,280 Speaker 1: another hand in the decline was that the export market diminished, 917 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,279 Speaker 1: So there were exports that were coming out of the 918 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,320 Speaker 1: South and going to Europe. That market diminished, and so 919 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,399 Speaker 1: on top of all, all of that mixed together is 920 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,920 Speaker 1: what led to the decline. And so, like I said, 921 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,920 Speaker 1: the production peaked in the late eighteen hundreds, in the 922 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds and then continue to like sixties and seventies, 923 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,320 Speaker 1: but after that point it was really it was basically 924 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,160 Speaker 1: non existent, like you could find you know, a couple 925 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: here there, but it wasn't worth it. So there was 926 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 1: nothing that could be done there. And so today you 927 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,920 Speaker 1: won't really see people who are working in gum naval 928 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,879 Speaker 1: stores and working the land in this kind of way. 929 00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,239 Speaker 1: So that was very long, long explanation, but there were 930 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: a lot of things that led to it. Yeah, we 931 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,680 Speaker 1: had a lot to wrap up though. You you dealed it. Uh, 932 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: you nailed it in amazingly concise way there, because you 933 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,279 Speaker 1: know we've said it before on the show. But one 934 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: thing history really teaches us is that nothing exists and 935 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: nothing occurs in a vacuum. Right there is always, like 936 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,280 Speaker 1: you said at the top, there's always more to the story. 937 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,360 Speaker 1: And history really is a palam sest. You know, we 938 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: it's a conversation. We moved through it our day to 939 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,600 Speaker 1: day basis. There's something interesting I I learned that I 940 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,880 Speaker 1: wanted to use his way to to close our episode today, Eaves. 941 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: I had been you know, like you, I'm a big 942 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,040 Speaker 1: fan of hiking. Give me a long weekend and just 943 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,640 Speaker 1: like a place to wander through, right and I'll try 944 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,920 Speaker 1: not to get lost too bad. But I was in 945 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,760 Speaker 1: an area of Florida, where I saw trees that had 946 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 1: this very specific kind of vertical damage, as if something 947 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,760 Speaker 1: had gone in and just like scooped a straight line 948 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,480 Speaker 1: through it. And I didn't know what it was because 949 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: I just figured, you I was in a place with 950 00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:00,200 Speaker 1: creepy trees. I just accepted that because that's a is 951 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: not super enterprising that endeavor. And I thought, you know, 952 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:09,440 Speaker 1: maybe some maybe it was the result of a natural event, 953 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,560 Speaker 1: like maybe there have been a fire that the tree survived, 954 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,960 Speaker 1: or maybe there have been years ago, like a lightning 955 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,399 Speaker 1: strike or some something of that nature, because it didn't 956 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: look like an animal did it. But now when I've 957 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,400 Speaker 1: been looking at these pictures of old growth forest in 958 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,800 Speaker 1: Florida in particular, I'm starting to think maybe I had seen, um, 959 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,720 Speaker 1: maybe I had seen a tree that have been used 960 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,359 Speaker 1: as a turpentine tree. Is it possible that you can 961 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,320 Speaker 1: still find those trees today? I think it is possible 962 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 1: because they left very very distinct marks on it. I've 963 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,600 Speaker 1: seen people talk about the v shapes that they would 964 00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,400 Speaker 1: see near the bottom of the tree. That was the 965 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,560 Speaker 1: marks that were left of that tree being used in 966 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,120 Speaker 1: the turpentine process. And yeah, so I think that you 967 00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,799 Speaker 1: can still find those marks on the trees that are 968 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:03,879 Speaker 1: these leftover remnants of a bygone time when they were 969 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:08,759 Speaker 1: used for that purpose. So that's that's the way, Like, 970 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 1: that's a physical not just a physical, a living artifact 971 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,439 Speaker 1: of history. Those trees in particular, I was gonna just say, 972 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,319 Speaker 1: they're also also very living people you know who who 973 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 1: have a connection to it, even if they didn't work 974 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,399 Speaker 1: in the industry specifically, you know, like I said, it's 975 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,480 Speaker 1: more so faded out, you know, in the sixties and seventies, 976 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,879 Speaker 1: but there were people who lived through it that are 977 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: still alive. And there are people who knew people who 978 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,000 Speaker 1: lived through it, or were the family members of those 979 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,800 Speaker 1: who lived through it, and they are still alive. So 980 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,520 Speaker 1: if you do have the opportunity or know someone who 981 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: did work in the industry, like talk to them because 982 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure they have a lot of stories. We didn't 983 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,479 Speaker 1: get into it today, but there are, like I said, 984 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:59,360 Speaker 1: there's audio, there are personal accounts and anecdotes of people 985 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,880 Speaker 1: who worked in it. So yes, there are living, tangible, 986 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,439 Speaker 1: physical remnants when it comes to the land um, when 987 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,319 Speaker 1: it comes to industry, and when it comes to the 988 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,839 Speaker 1: actual people who worked in it. I love that you 989 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,840 Speaker 1: mentioned this, because it's something that we often forget the 990 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 1: importance of documenting experiences right of taking the lived and 991 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,800 Speaker 1: oral knowledge of our elders. This is something that also 992 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,880 Speaker 1: the federal government supported during the Great Depression to send 993 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,040 Speaker 1: people out to collect folk ways, for instance, was one 994 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 1: of the specific projects, but there were many, many more. Uh, 995 00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,719 Speaker 1: And there's much more to this story. Please if you'd 996 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,400 Speaker 1: like to learn more, check out Tapping the Pines the 997 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: Naval stores industry in the American South by Robert b Outland. 998 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:55,440 Speaker 1: I believe, yes, that is it and eaves at this point, 999 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,080 Speaker 1: in addition to thanking you again for coming on the 1000 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,759 Speaker 1: show and and classing us up a little bit, I've 1001 00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,360 Speaker 1: gotta I've gotta ask. I know, inquiring minds would would 1002 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,799 Speaker 1: love to learn about your newest projects because it's been 1003 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,800 Speaker 1: it's been so long since you were you were last 1004 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,279 Speaker 1: with this on air. What's what's the scoop? What are 1005 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,040 Speaker 1: you working on? Yeah? So I think the last time 1006 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,400 Speaker 1: that I was here, I was hosting this Day in 1007 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:25,840 Speaker 1: History class and I was also hosting Unpopular, which are 1008 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,840 Speaker 1: two shows that are also about history. So you can 1009 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,840 Speaker 1: still go back and listen to those and check out 1010 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,600 Speaker 1: a lot of other cool events and people in history 1011 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,479 Speaker 1: that I am interested in. I think you might find 1012 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,520 Speaker 1: some interest in as well. But now I am an 1013 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,960 Speaker 1: executive producer, so I'm working on a lot of cool projects. 1014 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,560 Speaker 1: You can also today still catch me on stuff mom 1015 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,600 Speaker 1: never told you, which I think a lot of y'all 1016 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,439 Speaker 1: might be familiar with I am talking about. I'm also 1017 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:57,040 Speaker 1: talking about history on their women in history, specifically who 1018 00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,120 Speaker 1: had first in history, so you can take me up 1019 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,520 Speaker 1: fair Also eping some other coal projects that you can 1020 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:08,080 Speaker 1: chick out, like Jill Scott Presents Data Ill the Podcast, 1021 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 1: and others that I won't name. But if you want 1022 00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,560 Speaker 1: to know anything else about me, you can check me 1023 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,720 Speaker 1: out on Instagram or on Twitter. I'm at Eve Jeff 1024 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,240 Speaker 1: Cote on Twitter and not apologizing on Instagram. And what's 1025 00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,840 Speaker 1: us about this outro moment felt ridiculous historians is that 1026 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,080 Speaker 1: when Eve says she has upcoming projects that she can't 1027 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,640 Speaker 1: really talk about, that's a hundred percent true. Like it's 1028 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:34,240 Speaker 1: so true that if me or no where to say, hey, 1029 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,080 Speaker 1: what's what's the scoop, then the very like diplomatic answer 1030 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: we would probably get is, oh, I can't wait to 1031 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,960 Speaker 1: tell you in a few months, so you're you're a mastermind. Eves, 1032 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show, and 1033 00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:53,440 Speaker 1: you can't wait to hear more about these upcoming projects. 1034 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,240 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard Jay dot Ill in particular, I 1035 00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,480 Speaker 1: do recommend that you check that out. Also check out 1036 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: Eves Were and Stuff Mom Never told you, another fantastic 1037 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:09,240 Speaker 1: show with some recurring guests of ours here on Ridiculous History. Eaves, 1038 00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave the last word to you. That's right. 1039 00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:14,720 Speaker 1: I'm doing the worst thing ever in improv. I've put 1040 00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,840 Speaker 1: the spotlight on you. It could be anything you watch. 1041 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,640 Speaker 1: It can be you know. When I say the last word, 1042 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:22,959 Speaker 1: I could just be a word. There's just a word 1043 00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,439 Speaker 1: you like, all right, Um, So I'll do a little 1044 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 1: bit longer than the word a word, and I will 1045 00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 1: say that I really appreciate you having me here again today. 1046 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,560 Speaker 1: I just want to reiterate that because I have been 1047 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,280 Speaker 1: wanting to talk to somebody about this, and I am 1048 00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,120 Speaker 1: glad that this has been an out for that. But 1049 00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 1: as a huge edit bonus, it's like a lot of 1050 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:45,520 Speaker 1: other people get to listen to me spew things, and 1051 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,160 Speaker 1: you got to like, we got to reflect that with 1052 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 1: each other and then so many people will hopefully learn things. 1053 00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,919 Speaker 1: So I'm just very appreciative that I get to share 1054 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,120 Speaker 1: this history and that I get to be the mouthpiece 1055 00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 1: for that. And I had a lot of fun too, 1056 00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: which is always a place, So thank you always. Yeah, 1057 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,720 Speaker 1: we're we're overdue, uh to go hang out post pandemic folks. 1058 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,560 Speaker 1: If the spirit moves you so, please head over to 1059 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,640 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Let us know some of your favorite folk 1060 01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,120 Speaker 1: remedies of old. That's all for this week. We'll see 1061 01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:17,680 Speaker 1: you next time.