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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Ryan Callahan to get a

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Speaker 2: quick level set on where things stand regarding threats to

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Speaker 2: public lands in early twenty twenty five, and a larger

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Speaker 2: discussion around the best strategies that we can employ to

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Speaker 2: protect those lands now and into the future, whether you

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Speaker 2: are listening to this in twenty twenty five, twenty thirty

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Speaker 2: or thirty more years down the road. All right, welcome

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Speaker 2: back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you

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Speaker 2: by First Life, and to start today, I want you

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Speaker 2: to close your eyes now. If you're driving, don't do

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Speaker 2: that please, but assuming you are in a safe place,

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Speaker 2: close your eyes. Bear with me here and imagine a

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Speaker 2: piece of public land, a piece of public land that

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Speaker 2: has been special to you, a favorite place, a cherished place,

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Speaker 2: somewhere that has lingered long into your memory because of

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Speaker 2: fishing trip or a hunting trip, or an incredible wildlife

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Speaker 2: encounter or an experience you shared with your son or

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Speaker 2: your daughter, or your mom or your dad. Think about

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Speaker 2: this place, the first place that comes to your mind

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Speaker 2: like that and picture it. Imagine what it looks like,

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Speaker 2: Imagine what it sounds like, the wind through the trees,

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Speaker 2: the river flowing through the rocks, Smell it, touch it,

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Speaker 2: remember what it feels like to be there. And then

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Speaker 2: imagine if that place was gone. Imagine if you couldn't

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Speaker 2: take your son or your daughter, or your grandkids, or

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Speaker 2: your friend or your mentee there. Imagine if you couldn't

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Speaker 2: go back because it was given away, sold off, it

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Speaker 2: was cut down, or if a road was built through

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Speaker 2: the middle of it, whatever it might be. Imagine that

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Speaker 2: that opportunity was no longer available to you. How does

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Speaker 2: that feel? I don't like that thought exercise. I don't

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Speaker 2: like the way that makes me feel, and I don't

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Speaker 2: want that to happen. And that's why we are having

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Speaker 2: this podcast here today, because this podcast, at a very

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Speaker 2: high level, is about what we can do as Americans,

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Speaker 2: as hunters and anglers, to make sure that this never

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Speaker 2: happens to your special place or my special place, or

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Speaker 2: anyone else here that loves our public lands, whether these

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Speaker 2: threats be now or five years from now, or ten

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Speaker 2: years from now or twenty years from now, Because what

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Speaker 2: I learned when I was working on my book was

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Speaker 2: about the history of our public lands and the threats

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Speaker 2: facing them in the future. When you look back in

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Speaker 2: the hundreds of years long history of how we got

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Speaker 2: these places, one of the biggest things that stood out

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Speaker 2: to me while working on that wild country was this

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Speaker 2: fact that these fights happened over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: Ever since we secured these lands as a shared inheritance

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Speaker 2: for all Americans, there have been people trying to get

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Speaker 2: their hands on them, trying to squeeze every penny they

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Speaker 2: can out of them, trying to find ways to sell

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Speaker 2: them off for milk them for more money, or get

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Speaker 2: them in some other person's control. Whatever it is, it

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Speaker 2: continues and it will continue. And so we today are

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Speaker 2: going to discuss some things going on right now in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five that are causing all sorts of buzz.

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Speaker 2: If you've been following the media and the news, of

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Speaker 2: course there's a lot going on nationally, but a lot

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Speaker 2: of that national conversation has ramifications for public lands and

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Speaker 2: hunting and fishing and outdoor recreation. So we today are

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Speaker 2: going to discuss a little bit of what's happening right now.

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Speaker 2: But then I also and what the biggest part of

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Speaker 2: this conversation entails is zooming out, zooming out of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five and talking more generally about we what we

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Speaker 2: as hunters and anglers can do to be the absolute

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Speaker 2: most effective advocates for public lands that we possibly can be.

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Speaker 2: This is a strategy session me my buddy Ryan Callahan,

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Speaker 2: a colleague, for me to the host of Kales. We

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Speaker 2: can review so one of the absolute leaders in the

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Speaker 2: conservation in public land space. Today we are going to brainstorm,

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Speaker 2: We are going to spitball. We are going to wipeboard

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Speaker 2: out different ideas and strategies and tactics and best practices

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Speaker 2: for being the best possible version of a public land

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Speaker 2: defense crew that we can possibly be. What have Cal

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Speaker 2: and I learned over the years as we've studied these issues,

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Speaker 2: What have we learned as we have participated in various

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Speaker 2: nonprofit conservation organizations and as volunteers, and as you know

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Speaker 2: folks that have created content around this and spoken to

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Speaker 2: many of the leaders in the space. The game plan

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Speaker 2: today is to try to really uncover the action items

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Speaker 2: that we need to be taking right now and five

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Speaker 2: years from now, and ten years from now, right on

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Speaker 2: down the line. And you know, I think it has

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Speaker 2: to be acknowledged that, you know, to set the context here,

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Speaker 2: to set this stage, there is a real swelling of

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Speaker 2: energy around anti public land ideas right now. The anti

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Speaker 2: public land movement has existed for many years. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of gone up and down with support and power and

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Speaker 2: opportunity and energy around it, and right now it's on

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Speaker 2: the rise. As hell. Herring said maybe six weeks six

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Speaker 2: weeks ago when he was on the podcast with me,

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Speaker 2: he said that that movement is ascendant right now. There

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Speaker 2: is a lot going on in the world right now,

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Speaker 2: a lot going on nationally that's providing an opportunity for

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Speaker 2: those people. So I want to start here with an

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Speaker 2: excerpt from an email that the CEO of Backcountry Hunters

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Speaker 2: and Anglers just sent. This is Patrick Barry, and he

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Speaker 2: wrote this, I quote, the avalanche of foreboding attacks on

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Speaker 2: public lands, combined with calculated misinformation campaigns design to gaslight

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Speaker 2: Americans into believing what's happening is in their best interest,

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Speaker 2: has reached a crisis point. From Utah's US Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: lawsuit aimed at eroding the very foundations of federal land ownership,

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Speaker 2: to the transactional view that public lands are no more

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Speaker 2: than a line at them on a balance sheet, to

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Speaker 2: the recent raft of political maneuvers setting the stage for

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Speaker 2: a public lands liquidation. The drumbeat of selling out and

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Speaker 2: selling off has become deafening end quote. And it's not

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Speaker 2: just BHA who's raising the red flag on this one.

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Speaker 2: Similar concerns have been raised all across the outdoor media

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Speaker 2: and conservation landscape. You can see it in the pages

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Speaker 2: of Field and Stream and Outdoor Life and Meat Eater.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna hear it from folks like Randy Nuberg and

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Speaker 2: Hell Herring, and Andrew McKean and Steve Vanella and so

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Speaker 2: many others. This is a across the board realization from many,

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Speaker 2: many people that there's something going on right now, and

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Speaker 2: it's going to require something on our end. Me and

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Speaker 2: Kail are going to dive into questions and concerns and

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Speaker 2: ideas related to everything from how can we as advocates

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Speaker 2: cut through the noise, how can we reach the people

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Speaker 2: we need to reach even though there's so much other

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Speaker 2: stuff going on. How can we actually get our elected

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Speaker 2: officials to listen to us, How can we rally big,

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Speaker 2: diverse coalitions in support of public lands. How can we

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Speaker 2: get conservation organizations to actually act and move forward on

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Speaker 2: the things that we really need them to. How can

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Speaker 2: we individually speak out about these issues more effectively. How

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Speaker 2: can we be more effective in educating our friends and

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Speaker 2: family members and work colleagues and all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: How can we kind of get outside of the partisan, polarizing,

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Speaker 2: name calling and craft talking that so much of our

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Speaker 2: politics are today. These are some of the things that

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Speaker 2: Cal and I try to discuss. And I will say that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the first thirty minutes or so of the

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Speaker 2: conversation with me and Cal here do kind of get

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Speaker 2: to the you know, context of what's happening right now.

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Speaker 2: We do a level set some of the things that

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Speaker 2: Cal's concerned about, some of the things that I'm concerned about.

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Speaker 2: Some of the current events right now in early twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five that are you know, giving folks in the

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Speaker 2: public land world from heartburn. So if you know, if

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Speaker 2: you've heard enough, if you're very well aware of the

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Speaker 2: situation in March twenty twenty five and don't need to

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Speaker 2: hear more about that. You can fast forward maybe thirty

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Speaker 2: minutes ish. That's when we get to more of this

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Speaker 2: tactical strategy session. But you know, I don't think that

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Speaker 2: it's I don't think it is, you know, a bad

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Speaker 2: idea to take stock of where we are right now, though,

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Speaker 2: because there is a lot and maybe you've been seeing

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Speaker 2: social media posts or you've been seeing the headlines with

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Speaker 2: concerns raised about public lands, but you're not really sure

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Speaker 2: of the details. I've had a lot of people commenting

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Speaker 2: on some of my things on social media saying, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, what's the big deal? You know, we have

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Speaker 2: to lay off some people. What's the big deal with that?

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Speaker 2: And so I think some people are aware of maybe

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Speaker 2: like one tiny slice of what's happening, but haven't seen

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Speaker 2: the full picture. So Cal and I do try to

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Speaker 2: speak to more of that full picture. But let me

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Speaker 2: give you a very quick rundown here, so you have

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Speaker 2: a sense of, you know, this kind of stack of

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Speaker 2: issues that keeps on piling up, piling up, piling up,

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Speaker 2: and it has been for a number of years now.

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Speaker 2: This isn't something that just began with the new administration.

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Speaker 2: There have been folks, you know, slowly accruing power, pushing

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Speaker 2: for these ideas, you know, for years. So one thing

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Speaker 2: mentioned there in Patrick Barry's email was this lawsuit from

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Speaker 2: the state of Utah asserting that the federal government was

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Speaker 2: breaking the law supposedly by having and managing federal public lands,

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Speaker 2: and the State of Utah demanded that the federal government

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Speaker 2: give eighteen point five million acres of federal public land

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Speaker 2: to the State of Utah. That fortunately was not picked

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Speaker 2: up by the Supreme Court. They decided not to hear

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Speaker 2: that case. But it's very likely that that's gonna rear

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Speaker 2: its ugly head up again in some appeals court or

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Speaker 2: something down the line. I think that was a strong

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Speaker 2: signal of what's going on. More than a dozen other states.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was somewhere around almost twenty different states

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Speaker 2: signed on in support of that. So this isn't just

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Speaker 2: a Utah thing. This is also North Dakota thing. This

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Speaker 2: is also an Iowa thing. This is also a bunch

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Speaker 2: of other state governments agreeing and supporting that idea. Speaking

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Speaker 2: of states supporting the idea of getting rid of public lands,

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Speaker 2: the state Senate in Wyoming pushed through a big resolution

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Speaker 2: again demanding that the federal government give over all the

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Speaker 2: federal public lands they've gotten the state of Wyoming. Now,

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Speaker 2: that actually got passed at one point, that resolution was

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Speaker 2: passed at one point by why Ioming State Senate. Fortunately,

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Speaker 2: they don't actually have the powers to do that, to

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Speaker 2: force the federal government to hand over their public lands,

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Speaker 2: but that kind of thing is being proposed by Wyoming

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Speaker 2: and other states. This kind of state control thing continues

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Speaker 2: to get some interest in certain corners, you know. Continuing

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Speaker 2: down that line, a bill was recently introduced that's trying

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Speaker 2: to you know, remove the power of the presidency to

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Speaker 2: use the Antiquities Act, which has been a tremendous tool

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Speaker 2: for protecting public lands. Theodore Roosevelt was the first to

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Speaker 2: do it and secure it incredible places that we all

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Speaker 2: enjoy today, such as the land that's now the Grand

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Speaker 2: Canyon National Park and many others. Let's see, when it

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Speaker 2: comes to you know, more recent high level federal stuff,

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Speaker 2: what probably most of you are aware of are the

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Speaker 2: cuts that have happened at the federal level. And and yes,

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Speaker 2: like there's there's important efficiency measures being taken which I

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Speaker 2: am many people'll kind of appreciate, but when it comes

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Speaker 2: to public lands specifically, there's been some concerns there. More

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Speaker 2: than two thousand folks from the Department of the Interior

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Speaker 2: were laid off, including more than a thousand from the

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Speaker 2: National Park Service. I also saw that another seven hundred

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Speaker 2: I believe took the kind of the pushed on them

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Speaker 2: early retirement offering. So that leads to about seventeen hundred

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Speaker 2: folks not at the National Park Service anymore. In that

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Speaker 2: I believe was almost ten percent of their staff. There

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Speaker 2: was thirty four hundred Forest Service employees that were let go.

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Speaker 2: That's about ten percent of the Forest Service. And you

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Speaker 2: know this isn't official yet, but the latest report I

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Speaker 2: saw is that there is another push happening where they

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Speaker 2: are asking for a push to lay off another seven

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Speaker 2: thousand folks there. And these are agencies that were already understaffed,

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Speaker 2: that were already underfunded. Budgets were slashed last year during

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Speaker 2: the previous administration and that passed Congress. So the agencies

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Speaker 2: that are managing our public lands are facing really really

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Speaker 2: difficult conditions too. This is concerning. And then you also

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Speaker 2: have further cost cutting measures. Many of the grants and

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Speaker 2: funds and budgets for these agencies and habitat programs are

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Speaker 2: being either frozen or slashed. And then on the flip side,

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Speaker 2: there's the cost cutting side, and then there's also the

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Speaker 2: revenue side. And this is an inherent what I would

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Speaker 2: say a good thing about public lands, but also a

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Speaker 2: thing that you always have to be careful about, is

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Speaker 2: the fact that revenues are raised from our public lands.

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Speaker 2: They are a revenue source, They are meant to be

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Speaker 2: a sustainable profit center, a sustainable resource in which there

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Speaker 2: is extraction for gas and oil and minerals and timber

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Speaker 2: and grazing. Those are opportunities that have been available on

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Speaker 2: public lands and should continue to be available. The thing

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Speaker 2: with our shared multi use landscape is that all priorities

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Speaker 2: need to be considered, and sometimes the pendulum swings one

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Speaker 2: way too far, and sometimes the other way. And right now,

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Speaker 2: based on what we're hearing and based on many of

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Speaker 2: the proposals and executive orders that we're seeing right now,

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Speaker 2: it seems like the pendulum is swinging far far to

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Speaker 2: the extraction side. All other things being equal, there's a

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Speaker 2: very high priority on drill baby, drill, extract baby extract.

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Speaker 2: Let's let's milk these things for as much money as

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Speaker 2: we possibly can. So many executive orders recently and secretarial

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Speaker 2: orders have been essentially laying the groundwork and asking for

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Speaker 2: the departments to start building out plans to take action on,

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Speaker 2: you know, fast tracking anything we can to get extraction

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Speaker 2: and development projects underway. Things like getting drilling going in

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Speaker 2: the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Things like possibly going and

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Speaker 2: getting the Ambler Road development in Alaska approved even after

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Speaker 2: it was denied last year after hearing from hunters and anglers.

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Speaker 2: Things like taking any mineral withdrawals that were made during

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Speaker 2: the last administration, So any places that you know, the

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Speaker 2: government said, hey, this place is too special to mine

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Speaker 2: or to extract, let's not do it in this spot.

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Speaker 2: Now they're looking to reassess and possibly remove those such

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Speaker 2: as the mineral withdrawal around the Boundary Waters Wilderness area

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Speaker 2: that we've talked a lot about, and a whole bunch

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Speaker 2: of more examples like that. And you know, anytime when

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Speaker 2: you talk national priorities, shifting priorities, and federal government right,

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Speaker 2: it can be touchy, It can make us defensive. And

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Speaker 2: I want to be clear here that in by talking

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Speaker 2: about any of these things whether it's right now in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, or when I talked about these things

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two or twenty

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Speaker 2: nineteen or twenty seventeen. You know, these aren't attacks on people,

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Speaker 2: These aren't attacks on parties. These are simply you know,

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Speaker 2: at least the way I approach it, I take an

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Speaker 2: issue by issue perspective. I don't care who the president is.

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Speaker 2: I don't care what parties in office. I just care

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Speaker 2: about the specific ideas being put on the table and

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Speaker 2: what they mean for hunting and fishing and the different

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Speaker 2: things that we do on public landscapes. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: right now we have you know, the Republicans's side does

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Speaker 2: have more control right now, and they're doing plenty of

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Speaker 2: good things, plenty of things that I would say, God

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Speaker 2: bless you to them for. I appreciate the support that

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Speaker 2: they are giving our firearm rights. I appreciate the fact

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Speaker 2: that they are incredibly supportive of hunting opportunities and access

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Speaker 2: in our way of life, and you know, so many

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Speaker 2: other things like that. I think most of us listening

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Speaker 2: to this podcast are in support of a more efficient,

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Speaker 2: smart government, absolutely, but at the same token, I do

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Speaker 2: not think that it is unpatriotic or Unamerican or unsupportive

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Speaker 2: to also point out some warts when we see them.

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Speaker 2: And here's the analogy. I've got the thing that kind

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Speaker 2: of came to mind to me when I when I

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Speaker 2: have talked about some of this stuff on social media,

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people would write in and say, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, we got to have these cuts or we

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Speaker 2: have to do this thing because you know, we need

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Speaker 2: to work down the deficit, or we need to make

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Speaker 2: the government more efficient, and because of that, you know,

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Speaker 2: basically apologize and ignore any of these other things because

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Speaker 2: the greater cause or this other cause is important. And

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Speaker 2: my thought to that, my response says, Okay, let's imagine

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Speaker 2: going to the hospital and you got a broken arm,

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Speaker 2: and you recognize that you have a problem. Here's this problem.

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Speaker 2: I got a big old broken arm. I need you

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Speaker 2: to fix it. I need someone to fix it. You

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Speaker 2: go in there to the hospital, and if they all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, before they fix my broken arm just

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Speaker 2: started cutting off my right leg. I wouldn't just sit

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Speaker 2: there and not ask any questions and just let them

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Speaker 2: take it. No, I would say, hey, man, why do

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Speaker 2: you guys take my right leg too. Are you sure

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Speaker 2: you need to take my right leg? I really love

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Speaker 2: my right leg. Can we think about this? Can we

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Speaker 2: do this carefully? Can we explore other opportunities? Are you

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Speaker 2: looking into every possible recourse you have? Let's be careful.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't just blindly let them go with it. And

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Speaker 2: I think we maybe should consider a similar approach when

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Speaker 2: it comes to our public lands, because yes, there are

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Speaker 2: other problems that need to be fixed. And this is

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Speaker 2: the case no matter who's in office, there's always going

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Speaker 2: to be some other problem. And it's going to be

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Speaker 2: our job, as hunters and anglers and people that care

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Speaker 2: about our public lands to say, hey, don't forget about

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Speaker 2: our right leg. Don't forget about our public lands. You know,

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Speaker 2: whether it be you know, the current administration wanting to

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Speaker 2: put a new road through the wilderness up in Alaska

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Speaker 2: to open up mind, or whether it be the past

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Speaker 2: administration wanting to put up millions of acres worth of

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Speaker 2: solar panels across wide open landscapes and destroy wildlife habitat

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Speaker 2: in that kind of way, I think our job is

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Speaker 2: to call a spade a spade to whoever's in office,

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Speaker 2: because you know, the wildlife and the wild places of

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Speaker 2: America don't have a voice, but we do. So we

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Speaker 2: need to speak up for them, no matter if we

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Speaker 2: are Republicans or Democrats or independents, no matter if the

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Speaker 2: President or Congress is Republican or Democrat. Regardless, we can,

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Speaker 2: we should, and we need to speak up and take

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Speaker 2: action for these things. So that is my long winded

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Speaker 2: rant to kick off this podcast. This one's gonna be long,

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Speaker 2: so apologies for that, but that's what I got. That's

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Speaker 2: my intro. Like I said, me and cal riff on

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Speaker 2: this a little bit more like I said, for maybe

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Speaker 2: like thirty ish minutes. So if you want to get

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Speaker 2: right to the strategy, fast forward from here. But I

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Speaker 2: do hope this is going to be helpful for you

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Speaker 2: now and well into the future. And while this episode

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Speaker 2: today is about defense, there are offensive strategies that we

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Speaker 2: can consider as well, and that are available even now

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Speaker 2: in the short term. So next week we do have

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Speaker 2: an episode and a couple folks coming on that are

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Speaker 2: going to talk about opportunities that we have over these

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Speaker 2: next few years, ways that we absolutely could have some

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Speaker 2: conservation wins and maybe some public land wins if we

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Speaker 2: do our job and get our elected officials back on

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Speaker 2: the right track. Good things aren't possible. So we're gonna

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Speaker 2: talk defense, We're gonna talk offense. We're gonna talk about

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Speaker 2: whatever we have to do, regardless of political party, regardless

359
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Speaker 2: of where we live, what we do, whatever we love

360
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Speaker 2: these places, we love these opportunities.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna fight.

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Speaker 2: All right now with me on the line. We've got

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Speaker 2: the one and only mister Ryan Callahan. Uh. First off, Scuss,

364
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Speaker 2: I thank you for hopping right out of bed this

365
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Speaker 2: morning and joining me early on a on a Monday morning.

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Speaker 2: I do appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: To eight thirty in the morning. Mark left bed a

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Speaker 3: long time ago.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of you don't have kids. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what world you're living in, cal it might be.

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Speaker 3: No, I got a doctor making up her mind whether

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Speaker 3: to puke or not, so it's kind of like having kids,

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Speaker 3: So that's no figure. But no, Yeah, thank thank you

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Speaker 3: for having me on. I know we've been talking about

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Speaker 3: joining Forrests here for a long time and we're honestly

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Speaker 3: doing a pretty piss poor job of it, so I'm

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Speaker 3: sure this is a good, good step one here.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I gotta start somewhere in in while. While

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Speaker 2: we've done a piss poor job so far, I have

380
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Speaker 2: pie in the sky aspirations for what we're gonna do

381
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Speaker 2: here today. We're gonna do something that that may not

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Speaker 2: be possible, but I hope it is. So hear me

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Speaker 2: out on this. I'm hoping that we can have a

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Speaker 2: discussion today that is not just about current events. It

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Speaker 2: will be about current events, but it's hopefully something that

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Speaker 2: somebody could return to two years from now, or four

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Speaker 2: years from now, or ten years from now and still

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Speaker 2: find helpful and relevant to whatever version of this world

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Speaker 2: is happening for them. Then that's kind of my goal

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Speaker 2: for what we're gonna do here, because what I the

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Speaker 2: idea for this kale was that, you know, I've been,

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Speaker 2: as you have, thinking a lot about what's going on

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Speaker 2: right now related to public lands, related to kind of

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Speaker 2: this rising tide of energy for some ideas around you know,

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Speaker 2: changing what we're doing with public lands, whether it be

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Speaker 2: transferring them or defunding them, or divesting of them, or

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Speaker 2: any other number of ways that this incredible public land

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Speaker 2: inheritance that we have might be damaged. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of different stuff in the floating in the ether right

400
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Speaker 2: now in that front. So I've been thinking a whole

401
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Speaker 2: lot about what can I do, what should I do,

402
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Speaker 2: what shouldn't I do, What can we use a community do.

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Speaker 2: There's all these different ideas, and there's all these different

404
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Speaker 2: questions I have, And I got to thinking that maybe

405
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Speaker 2: it would be best to do that kind of brainstorming

406
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Speaker 2: and spitballing and figuring out the answers to those questions,

407
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Speaker 2: not just an isolation, but actually with somebody else who's

408
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Speaker 2: also doing the same kind of stuff. So rather than

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Speaker 2: you and me sitting in our own little rooms thinking

410
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Speaker 2: about this stuff and try and figure out what the

411
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Speaker 2: hell to do, maybe we should talk about together and

412
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Speaker 2: see if we can come up with some ideas or

413
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Speaker 2: some lessons learned, or look back on the past at

414
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Speaker 2: what's worked and what's not. Maybe that can help inform

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Speaker 2: us about what we should do moving forward. And gosh,

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Speaker 2: I bet there's a whole lot of people that'd be

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Speaker 2: interested in that conversation between the two of you, so

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Speaker 2: that this just doesn't benefit us, but also maybe is

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Speaker 2: a toolbox or a game plan or a blueprint that

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Speaker 2: could be used by all sorts of people now and

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Speaker 2: in the future. So that's that's the pie in the

422
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Speaker 2: sky hope. Is that asking too much? Or is that possible? Oh?

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Speaker 3: I think very possible. You know, like the realistic building blocks,

424
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Speaker 3: like the foundation for anything like this is really not

425
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Speaker 3: going to change.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, well, it's funny you say that because you know,

427
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Speaker 2: in writing my book on this topic handful of years ago,

428
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Speaker 2: maybe the very biggest takeaway I had from that is

429
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Speaker 2: that these same fights and battles and debates have been

430
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Speaker 2: happening for decades. You know that the specifics are a

431
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Speaker 2: little bit different. But you know, supposedly Mark Twain said this.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's actually him, but he says

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Speaker 2: that history doesn't always repeat itself, but it usually rhymes.

434
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of truth to that, and I

435
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: think that I think that will prove true with our

436
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: current situation and what's to come. You know, who knows

437
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: how many years down the road. So that's a long

438
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: winded wind up kel to this. I think it would

439
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 2: be useful with all this about timeless being said, I

440
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: do think it would be useful to have kind of

441
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: a level set of where things stand right now with

442
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: public lands. There's been tons in the news, you guys

443
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: have talked about on your podcast. There's been some discussion

444
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: around it on the Mediator podcast. We've all had social

445
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 2: media posts that have brought up something related to these things.

446
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: All the major media outlets are discussing, you know, everything

447
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: from layoffs to funding, to executive orders to you know,

448
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: every other which way and another. Me and hell Herring

449
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: had a conversation about this prior to the new administration

450
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: coming on board back in January sixteenth. We have not

451
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: had a conversation on this podcast, this specific podcast, about

452
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: you know, what's gone on in six weeks since then.

453
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: So to kind of get our foundation, I guess you

454
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 2: could you run me through maybe the things right now

455
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: that have you the most concerned or that you're really

456
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: paying attention to or related to public lands over the

457
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: last six weeks. So, what are the things that have

458
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: been getting you, you know, stand up late at night

459
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: doing a lot of research, doing a lot of thinking,

460
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: wanting to be involved in these kinds of conversations. What

461
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: are those top things right now?

462
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: Boy? I've been learning a lot about the national debt,

463
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: you know, for better or worse.

464
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 2: I do.

465
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: Kind of aggregate consistent arguments, and you hear the national

466
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: debt brought up a lot. So I've been reaching out

467
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 3: to folks whose job, you know, economists that work on

468
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 3: the national debt or teach classes courses on the national

469
00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: debt and picking their brains and asking the same questions

470
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,239
Speaker 3: of everybody, and then you know, expanding a little bit,

471
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 3: so spending time there because that just seems to be like, well,

472
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 3: it's for the national debt or or this is all

473
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: happening because we have to reduce the national debt. And

474
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: then I also am interested in you know, because like

475
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: I I'm kind of like a true believer, right, Like

476
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: that'd be the category that I fall in, where I

477
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: see immense value in public land, public water, public wildlife.

478
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 3: That's where I've spent my life. That's where I've gotten

479
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: a lot of personal growth and enjoyment, and and I'm

480
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 3: just anchored to it, right So I do also pay

481
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: attention to some of the arguments that kind of come

482
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 3: from that same angle, but from the opposition point of view,

483
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: So like public lands, water and wildlife are a socialist

484
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 3: ideal or a communist ideal. So I've spent some time

485
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: going through some of those which are interesting, and I

486
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: think you know, right now it's safe to say that

487
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: there's a very very good chance that public lands as

488
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: we know them, which should be the big asterisk there,

489
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: like as we know them is, are are going to change.

490
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 3: We know and have always known that there are you know,

491
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: redundancies in just like anybody who works for any sort

492
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 3: of big corporation, there's a lot of redundancies. That's where

493
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 3: like the B word bureaucracy comes in, and there's some

494
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 3: waste for sure. But we also know that with the

495
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 3: recent round of layoffs and impending layoffs like the there's

496
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: no consultation happening with leaders in the space. So nobody

497
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: went to like, you know, like the the best foresters

498
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: in the Forest Service and said, hey, this is our goal.

499
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: What do we need to do. Nobody went to the

500
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: best district rangers and said, hey, this is our goal.

501
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 3: This is what we do, right, you run the best

502
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: forest by these metrics in all of our national forests.

503
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: Here's our goal. What do we need to do? That

504
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 3: that did not happen. And when you look at like

505
00:30:54,080 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: these legacy federal employment rates, we peekked more or less

506
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: uh in the you know, late seventies, early eighties for

507
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: federal employees but really we've maintained a more or less

508
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: steady employment rate and it's just where those employees are

509
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: that has changed. And you know, relative to our population

510
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 3: growth and user growth visitation to these places right where,

511
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: we're at an all time low relative to those rates.

512
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: So you hear this other argument when we talk about employment,

513
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 3: of like, oh, well, they're just uh, they're doing what

514
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: corporations do and they're they're laying everybody off and then

515
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 3: they'll they'll backfill in. Well, a, you've ever been in

516
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: that position. It sucks. It's not a good thing. People

517
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: are going on unemployment. It drastically affects not only their lives,

518
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: but the lives of people around them and our gross

519
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: domatic domestic product, which is tied to the unemployment rate

520
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 3: in this country. And I think if there's we want

521
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: to get to like the good things that you can do,

522
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: and here's like the positive message, and I think people

523
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: bond around public land, public water, public wildlife for sure,

524
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: So I'm very optimistic there. But I do want people

525
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: to come away with this other thing, like what is

526
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: going on right now is not reducing nor in my

527
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: estimation and all of my research, will we see a

528
00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: reduction in national debt. In the debt this tree carries.

529
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 3: Even if you were to do the Mark Twain thing

530
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: and like jump back and look at the last time

531
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 3: an attempt was made to do this, our national debt

532
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: still rose. Right, So like Reaganomics in the eighties would

533
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: be like the thing that people are pointing to. We

534
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 3: didn't reduce debt. Then we changed how we spent. And

535
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 3: anybody listening to this show, anybody you run into on

536
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 3: the street, will tell you without a doubt, saving money

537
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 3: does not affect your debt. If you have a mortgage,

538
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: a credit card, car loan, student loan, whatever, you can

539
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: save all the money you have and put it in

540
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 3: that jar. But unless you put it towards the principle,

541
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: you are not reducing your debt. Like we know that.

542
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: That is a fact. So it is very irksome to

543
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: me when people are like, well, we got to reduce

544
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: the national debt, that would be great. That is not

545
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: what's happening here. I don't think it's the plan at all.

546
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 3: And the only time that we're gonna see reduction in

547
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: the national debt is if, like President Trump came on

548
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: and said yesterday, past tense, we matured all these treasury

549
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: bills and notes, paid them off, and we will not

550
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: issue them again. If that were to happen, that would

551
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 3: be a reduction in national debt, and that I don't

552
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: think that's going to happen, right. I'd be super super

553
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 3: shocked if we don't see coming up here very soon

554
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 3: and a raising the lid on the national debt again.

555
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: So we are saving money, but it's money that's already

556
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 3: already spent. We're putting it in I don't even know

557
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 3: what bucket. There's an optimistic view that once we reshuffle

558
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: the deck and we have a surplus, which would again

559
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 3: be in quotations to reassign to other things, then we

560
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 3: can fight to have that reassigned towards things that we

561
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 3: care about, right, Like, everybody's gonna be fighting for that cash.

562
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: There's a chance that we could fight hard enough and

563
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 3: get that cash towards you know, new efficient ass kicking

564
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: management of the Forest Service to the BLM bureau, breck

565
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: all that stuff. But I just like to think that

566
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 3: we're reducing national debt is just not I am a

567
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 3: D minus macro economic one class University of Montana, dude, right,

568
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 3: And this is a fact, like I've corresponded with a

569
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: bunch of folks who do this as a as a living.

570
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 3: Like when we talk about reducing the national debt in

571
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: the in those terms, all it means is that we

572
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: are going to attempt to raise our gross domestic product

573
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: in relation to the national debt.

574
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

575
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 3: That that's it.

576
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: So all these conversations around the national debt, and and

577
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: there's been interestingly a number of you know, a number

578
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: of people talking about this outside of our world too,

579
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: Like there's several opinion pieces in the Wall Street Journal

580
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 2: talking about this in waste, that the federal lands, our

581
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: public lands might be used in this capacity to on

582
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: that or something. But but here's the thing. When this

583
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: is brought up and the issues of you know, pulling

584
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: back funding of public lands, or divesting of public lands,

585
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 2: or laying off the workforce to cut costs, all these

586
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: different things, one thing I've noticed when someone like you

587
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 2: or myself or Steve or anyone from any other media

588
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 2: organization or any individual brings up these things and says, well,

589
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: this might not be such a good idea for a

590
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: reason A, B and C. There's a whole flurry of

591
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: voices who say what you just said, well we have

592
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: to pay off the debt. Well, we have to sacrifice

593
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: across the board to deal with these things. And I

594
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: don't disagree, and that there's plenty of as you said too,

595
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: plenty of room to improve efficiency, plenty of fat that

596
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: could probably be cut, plenty of ways we need to

597
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: make our government work better for us. Agree on all

598
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: of those fronts. But what I would also say, and

599
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: I made this analogy in the introduction to this separate

600
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: but you know, if I go to the hospital and

601
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 2: I've got a broken arm and I say, hey, you know,

602
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: we fix my broken arm for me. If they come

603
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: in and say, yep, we see that's a problem you've

604
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: got there. We're going to fix your broken arm, that's great.

605
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: But if at the same time they also mentioned, oh,

606
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: by the way, we're also going to cut off your leg.

607
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: I'm not just going to be like, all right, fine, yeah,

608
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: got to fix my broken arm, so take my leg

609
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: with it too? Why not? No, I'm going to ask

610
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: some serious questions. I'm gonna say, are you sure you

611
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: need to cut off my leg? Is there anything we

612
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: can do about that? Are there some alternative solutions? Can

613
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: you very thoroughly explain to me why you're cutting off

614
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 2: my leg. I'm going to fight for my leg. I'm

615
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,479
Speaker 2: not just going to willingly ask no questions, say well, yeah, sure,

616
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: you're my doctor. I love you, Take my arm, take

617
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 2: my leg, whatever you need. No, of course not. So

618
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: I think that there is there's no reason why we

619
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 2: can't ask serious questions about this. There's no reason we

620
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: should feel bad about raising some concerns around it, because

621
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: I really like my leg. I'd like to keep it around.

622
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 2: And I'm not gonna, you know, feel like I'm not

623
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 2: supporting my doctor just because he's doing something that maybe

624
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: isn't going to help me all the way across the board.

625
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 2: So in that case, I think these questions that the

626
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 2: other people are bringing up and that we're bringing up

627
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: around the debt and the best way to deal with

628
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 2: that problem, or around government efficiency and the best way

629
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: to solve those problems, and making sure that in doing

630
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: those important things, at least when it comes to the

631
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: public land and wildlife issues that we know a lot

632
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: about and care a lot about, that we're not throwing

633
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: the baby out with the bathwater. And I think that's

634
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: where we come into some serious concerns about what's happening

635
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: right now, because, as you mentioned, there's a chainsaw approach

636
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: that's maybe being taken right now, where a scalpel is

637
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 2: probably more appropriate, and a scalpel being used very carefully

638
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: with something that matters a lot to a lot of people. Right.

639
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: I think that's like my entry point to a lot

640
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: of this is like, we have it's okay to engage

641
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: in that kind of way because this stuff really matters,

642
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 2: and a chainsaw is a power perful tool, but also

643
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 2: a very dangerous one if not use carefully.

644
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know it matters to everyone. So the

645
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 3: frustrating part here is is, you know, public lands have

646
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: been almost like a co op approach for a long time. Right.

647
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 3: Mother Nature's a beast. It throws a lot of curveballs

648
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 3: at individuals and agencies. You could have a forest management

649
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 3: plan that says we're going to, you know, clear one

650
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 3: thousand miles of trail this summer. That's what our trail

651
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 3: crews are going to do, and there could be a

652
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 3: microburst and a windstorm and they could very well clear

653
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 3: a thousand miles of trail, but it ends up being

654
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: the same trail that they worked on all summer long

655
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: because of you know, crazy wind events, and that leaves

656
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 3: thousands of miles of trail that is not going to

657
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 3: get the attention of that trail crew and the horse

658
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 3: packers and the recreational folks, right they're the ones who

659
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: are clearing trail, and that that is That's the way

660
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 3: it's always been, really, you know, I think there's some

661
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: frequency of some of those crews that I remember seeing

662
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 3: a lot more when I was younger and hoofing it around.

663
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: But you know, I don't have like the hard numbers

664
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 3: to support how many trail crews are on the landscape

665
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: right now, but I do know that, you know, there's

666
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: been a heavy reliance on independent contractors to take care

667
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: of all sorts of things on our public lands in

668
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: the last over a decade, you know, and a lot

669
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 3: of those independent contractors who have built whole businesses in

670
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 3: the private sector around these things are are really hurting

671
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: right now too because of the federal funding freezes. So

672
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: those things are going to have an impact on users,

673
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 3: if I'm being honest, Is it going to impact me

674
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 3: a whole lot? Not that much, because I've spent a

675
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 3: ton of my time parking on the in a wide

676
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: spot on the road and heading up, you know, terrain

677
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 3: that is not family friendly or all that accessible to

678
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: somebody who doesn't like to suffer a little bit, But

679
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: it is darn sure going to impact the people who

680
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: rely on maintain campgrounds and and just you know, come

681
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 3: to expect a certain level of service maintained roads for

682
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: one to get that fifth wheel into those spots. Stuff

683
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 3: like that, garbage removal, pumping toilets. So like, you know,

684
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 3: and how many you're of this age, and so many

685
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 3: of my friends are right, It's like I never thought,

686
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 3: ever thought we'd have a camper, but then you have

687
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 3: a kid, it's two kids, and it's like, couldn't do

688
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 3: it without it, right, just just makes things more enjoyable.

689
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 3: You eat a little time back, stuff like that, And

690
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 3: those are the people that are going to see some

691
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: real effects this spring and summer for sure. Another super

692
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: important thing, right, like we got wildfires ripping in the

693
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 3: Carolinas right now. Something that's not talked about is like

694
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 3: a ton of this seasonal employee base, although not specifically

695
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 3: assigned to fire, they plan on being assigned to fire

696
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 3: in emergency capacity, filling in extra spots when when fire

697
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: season starts to go, so they all have you know,

698
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 3: what's called a red card. They're they're fire certified in

699
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 3: order to do that. So it even though they're not

700
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:27,479
Speaker 3: specifically fire personnel, they absolutely do work on on fire,

701
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 3: especially once once seasons get get big. You know, So

702
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 3: you know that that's one part of this. Then we

703
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: jump over to the announcement that was made over the

704
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 3: weekend for like increasing timber harvest on on public land.

705
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: You know, hunters certainly know that there can be some

706
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 3: real benefit to that new edge habitat that's created through

707
00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 3: timber harvest. Not always a bad thing by any means.

708
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 3: It's certainly renewable resource. We need timber. It can be

709
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 3: done really well. The interesting thing here is, you know

710
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: this is like your normal blanket statement government bureaucracy stuff, right,

711
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 3: Like that's one of the other pet peeves of mine,

712
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: right It's like there's no clearer example of big government

713
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: than what's going on right now of just like, uh yeah,

714
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 3: fire all these people don't need to know what they do,

715
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 3: don't need to know what's going on. So we've laied

716
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 3: laid off a ton of folks whose job it is

717
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 3: to go through our timber stands and calculate how many

718
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 3: commercially viable board feet of lumber there are mark off zones.

719
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 3: Let's say, hey, these trees have to remain in order

720
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: to hold back stream bank sediment, allow fish to spawn,

721
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 3: keep our streams and rivers healthy, you know, places where

722
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 3: a road can be established in order to get that

723
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 3: commercially viable timber to market. Those people just got laid off.

724
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 2: But when the executive order just came out saying they

725
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 2: want to increase timber production dramatically, et cetera, et cetera,

726
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 2: but now we don't have the staffing to do that

727
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 2: in a smart way, right.

728
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And you know it's really interesting that you

729
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 3: need these people on the ground in order, you know,

730
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 3: in order to actually make this stuff happen. We don't

731
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 3: have a nationalized timber program, right. It's not the federal

732
00:46:54,400 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 3: government going out there and taking trees to market independent contractors, right,

733
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: it's oftentimes like small, independent, like family owned timber operations.

734
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: And you know, like kids I grew up with and

735
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 3: at Hellgate High School that you know, as soon as

736
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 3: football season was over, they quit high school to go

737
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 3: cut timber with their dads. Right, it's those people that

738
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 3: are out there doing this, and like there's not that

739
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 3: much timber in certain areas, areas that are under this

740
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 3: big government, like, hey, this is where we want timber

741
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 3: to come from, Black Hills being a great example, Like

742
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 3: there's not a lot of good timber there right now.

743
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 3: So we're kind of back in this situation of like, yes,

744
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 3: we want to reduce fuels for wildfire mitigation, but the

745
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: fuels that are there, there's not really a strong market for,

746
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: especially if you've got to burn a bunch of gas

747
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: and time to get them. So we kind of go

748
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: into this zone of us, the taxpayer federal government, are

749
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 3: we going to pay these timber producers to go in

750
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: there and extract timber that you know, basically like subsidize

751
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: timber at the mill. And it could not be a mill, right,

752
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 3: it could just be a chipping facility or a pellet

753
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 3: facility type of thing, because that timber isn't what's going

754
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 3: to go into building somebody's house.

755
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 2: Well, and I think that this is just one example

756
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 2: of many in which, you know, there's a bunch of

757
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 2: things happening right now that I think it is fair

758
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: to say is representative of just a pendulum shift strongly

759
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: in one direction towards you know, fast tracking all extraction

760
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: possible from these public lands, like milking every dollar we

761
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 2: can from that. That's that's a higher priority right now

762
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 2: for folks who are at the levers of power than

763
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: it was. And so what you have is, as you

764
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: just described, situation where there might be some subsidizing of

765
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 2: of getting that stuff going on within our national force,

766
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 2: but maybe pushing it into overdrive. Same thing with gas

767
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: and oil, same thing with minerals. You know, there's been

768
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 2: this slew of executive orders trying to unleash you know,

769
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 2: Alaska's energy potential, declaring it energy emergency, fast tracking any

770
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 2: and all potential energy projects in the lower forty eight

771
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 2: you know, review and possible recision of any mineral withdrawals

772
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: basically anywhere, or any kind of protection was put into

773
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 2: place or speed bump was raised. You know, with the

774
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 2: new priorities, they're trying to remove that let's let's get

775
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 2: as much oil, let's get as much timber, let's get

776
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: as much every mine, et cetera, et cetera. That is

777
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 2: kind of the trend that things are heading towards. You

778
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 2: have places that we as hunters and anglers have you know,

779
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: fought for years and years to protect places like the

780
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: Boundary Waters or the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, or you

781
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 2: know the Brooks Range there. With the Ambler Road being

782
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 2: proposed to be pushed through there, these places are back

783
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 2: on the cutting block. I guess you could say.

784
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 3: Auction block least the auction block.

785
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 2: Least block the eye. So you have things like that happening.

786
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: You then have the freezing of funds and grants towards

787
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 2: habitat work that a lot of organizations were working on,

788
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: like Trout and limited I knows lost dollars. I've talked

789
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 2: to people who had they were doing habitat work that

790
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 2: now you know they're not going to be able to do.

791
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 2: You then have the layoffs like you were talking about

792
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 2: there a minute ago, about ten percent of the National

793
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 2: Forest Service, you know worker for workforce was with involved

794
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 2: in those layoffs. Now, between the layoffs and then the

795
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: resignations due to the Fork in the Road proposal, about

796
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 2: ten percent of the National Park Service workforce is now gone.

797
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 2: So there's there's this whole array of things happening right

798
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: now that are going to lead to possible challenges with

799
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: management of public lands, funding issues with public lands, and

800
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 2: all of that possibly feeding into what has been again

801
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: a rising tide of people saying, well, public lands are

802
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: managed horribly by the federal government. We should transfer them

803
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 2: to the states or get rid of them. There was

804
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 2: the lawsuit from you in Utah, you know, claiming that

805
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: they should get all their federal public lands. There's the

806
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: proposal and you know the Montana sorry, Wyoming state legislator

807
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: legislature voting to demand all of their federal public lands

808
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: other than Yellowstone National Park to be given to the

809
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 2: state of Wyoming. So this is this is a kind

810
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: of rising tide of all these things that potentially threat

811
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 2: I think seriously threat our public lands. And that's that's

812
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 2: like our current version right now, kill right that that's

813
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 2: what we're experiencing here in early twenty twenty five.

814
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 3: And if there was somebody interject yeah, just because you

815
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 3: covered so much, they're like, I think it's it's really

816
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 3: really important again to remind people that that oil and

817
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 3: gas mineral extraction that also goes in this bucket of

818
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 3: things that are not going to affect the national debt.

819
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 3: So like, at the end of the day, like I've said,

820
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 3: a couple of things that I want people to remember.

821
00:52:53,719 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 3: But like I want every Ameria to value their public lands,

822
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 3: I also want them to just understand that as we

823
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 3: continue on here and we may or may not be

824
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 3: faced with these questions of do you want to trade

825
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 3: this for that, we will not be trading natural resources

826
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 3: to reduce the national debt. That is not what's going on.

827
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 3: It will increase our gross domestic product, which makes it

828
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 3: look better in relation to the national debt. So yeah,

829
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 3: these insanely complicated, unbelievable areas that you mentioned, right, I mean,

830
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 3: just take the Boundary Waters right, that is a fresh

831
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 3: water reserve that is absolutely critical to life in the

832
00:53:54,320 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 3: United States. And you know, I think for very good reason,

833
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,959
Speaker 3: there is a moratorium on mineral withdrawal under the last

834
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 3: administration that I feel like had overwhelming public support. Now

835
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: that's up for review. And the company that wants to

836
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 3: go in there, Twin Metals, is not American owned, is

837
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 3: a foreign entity like many major mining companies, right, So

838
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 3: what we are going to be getting out of that

839
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 3: are and focus need to like look up the Mining

840
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: Act eighteen seventy and and see like what we get,

841
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 3: because again that we don't have nationalized federal mining operations

842
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 3: or nationalized federal oil and gas operations. Right, the US

843
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 3: government is not taking anything to market, and that is

844
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 3: by design. People did not think it was fair to

845
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 3: other Americans trying to make a living to go out

846
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 3: and compete against the federal government. Right, So when we

847
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: talk about this stuff, you got to understand that, like,

848
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 3: we're not getting some giant chunk of the tax pile, right,

849
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 3: I think we're the US government has only pulled in

850
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 3: us the American people, I think is only pulled in

851
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:36,280
Speaker 3: like four hundred billion dollars off of off of mining

852
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 3: leases since eighteen seventy two. So you know that's would

853
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 3: basically be enough to service the national debt right now,

854
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 3: pay pay the pay the juice if you will nothing.

855
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's it's a spit in the bucket

856
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 3: in the ocean. So the other thing to go back

857
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 3: to the fact that are our lands managed better than

858
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 3: private entities? Are our lands managed better than state entities? Well, gang,

859
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 3: we're getting exactly what we wanted. People don't want the

860
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 3: federal government to compete with private enterprise, so we've shackled

861
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 3: their ability to do so. Right, Like, that's why the regulations,

862
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 3: the least fees have never been updated. That's why the

863
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 3: boots on the ground workforce is always very limited. There's

864
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 3: always more to do, so it's insanely disingenuous to the

865
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 3: point where I will tell you and everybody listening it

866
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 3: is not about management. Is just not about manage. It

867
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 3: has more to do with a bunch of entrepreneurial types

868
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 3: so fricking pissed that they cannot figure out a way

869
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 3: to make money off of what we all publicly have

870
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 3: and are and is managed by us by the people.

871
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: Right.

872
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 3: It is land for the people, wildlife for the people,

873
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 3: very very American ideals. That's what's driving this. It's not

874
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 3: this idea about management. And if anybody like, I'm going

875
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 3: to cuss here, so hold on to your ears. Kids.

876
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 3: When you hear people be like, oh well, private lands

877
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 3: manage so much better, you should say, well, I should

878
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 3: fucking hope so like I should hope so a private

879
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 3: like I can go out in my lawn and manage

880
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 3: that thing any way I want to. I can hear

881
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 3: Mark's feedback, I can hear my girlfriend's feedback, I can

882
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 3: hear other people's feedback. At the end of the day,

883
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 3: It does not matter at all. That is my lawn.

884
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 3: I get to manage it for me.

885
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 2: Yep.

886
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 3: That is not a comparison to federally managed lands, not

887
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: in any way, shape or form. Federally managed lands are

888
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 3: a very different thing and people need to understand that.

889
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 2: And that's a feature, not a bug, I would argue.

890
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 2: And by that, I mean that's part of what. Yes,

891
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: it is part of what makes federal public lands challenging

892
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 2: to any one particular user base. They might say, well,

893
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 2: they're not doing everything they possibly could be doing that

894
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 2: I would like them to do. But what makes our

895
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 2: federal public lands really special is that they are to

896
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 2: a large degree mandated to be managed for multiple uses.

897
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,439
Speaker 2: So there's not one single entity that gets everything they want.

898
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 2: There's not one single user base that gets a free

899
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 2: for all. This is for all of those things you mentioned. Yes,

900
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 2: there's going to be sustainable resource extraction, that's important. There's

901
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 2: going to be some grazing, there's going to be some mining,

902
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 2: there's going to be some logging. There's also going to

903
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 2: be protections for clean water. There's also going to be wildlife.

904
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: There's also going to be recreation. And if we want

905
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: to like you said, if we want to go to

906
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 2: the private land route, you better be ready that maybe

907
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 2: your user base, maybe your use just isn't going to

908
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 2: be prioritized by that particular private land entity or state,

909
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: and you just might be shit out of luck. But

910
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 2: with the federal situation we have right now, we have

911
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 2: a set of regulations and systems and processes in place

912
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 2: to as best as possible manage for the many. And

913
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 2: it's never perfect, but it's a heck of a lot

914
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 2: better than what we've seen happen in many other countries

915
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 2: or many other places where you know, it's it's the

916
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 2: king's deer, the king's land, or it's the state's land,

917
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 2: and then before you know it, it's not too terribly

918
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 2: profitable and they sell it off and it's gone and

919
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 2: it's nobody else's or it's you know, paved over and

920
00:59:58,240 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: turned into a Walmart.

921
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, man, like, listen, if somebody wants to tell

922
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 3: me that our federally managed lands or a socialist or

923
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 3: a communist construct, I will buy you a fricking plane

924
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 3: ticket and encourage you to go hike around on government

925
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 3: owned land in a socialist or communist country. Yeah, you're

926
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 3: probably gonna get shot. But if that's the experiment you want.

927
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 2: To run, Yeah, I see our public lands as as

928
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 2: the maybe one of the most shining examples of democracy.

929
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 3: Right, it's Americanism not communism. Yeah, Americanism not socialism.

930
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 2: Right, that that argument falls, that that one falls on

931
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: deaf ears for me, I just I don't see that

932
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 2: one at all.

933
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's like, is it hard? Yeah, it is, right.

934
01:00:53,520 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 3: And the reason that things got complicated it is because

935
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 3: we have you know, timber barns, oil barrens, mining barns,

936
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 3: folks that before regulations were put in place and we

937
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 3: were just left up to our own devices. These folks,

938
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 3: Holy shit, I better get it while the getting's good, right,

939
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 3: And they came in and just you know, decimated stands

940
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 3: of timber for the couple viable trees that are in there,

941
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: you know, and leaving the rest on the ground. Like

942
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 3: they set back good timber production for decades, if not

943
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 3: hundreds of years in certain areas because they were like, man,

944
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 3: if I don't get it, somebody else will. So that's

945
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 3: where a lot of this stuff came from. It's not

946
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 3: And again, like I kind of hate saying the government

947
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 3: because you and I everybody listening to this, we are

948
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 3: the government, which goes way back to one of the

949
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 3: first things that you talked about, which is geez doc,

950
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a good idea to cut my

951
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 3: leg off to save my arm before we at least

952
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 3: have a conversation about why that needs to happen. I

953
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 3: think people have just gotten freaking lazy with our democratic

954
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 3: system here, right, Like your job doesn't end at election day,

955
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 3: Like you have got to be reminding your elected officials

956
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 3: what's important to you. I say it all all the

957
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 3: time on my podcast, right like, if you don't advocate

958
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 3: for yourself, somebody else will and you might not like

959
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 3: how they do it, so you better make some time,

960
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 3: right And I think right now it's a really good time,

961
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 3: very simple call to action to just get a hold

962
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 3: of your senators, congress people and just say, hey, here's

963
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 3: my spring summer plans on our public lands. Very important

964
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 3: to my family. This is what we do. This is

965
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 3: how much money we spend. Please make sure that they're

966
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 3: still there by Memorial Day, by fourth of July weekend

967
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 3: sorry Independence Day, you know what I mean. People need

968
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 3: to know that we're thinking about this, and it's important

969
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 3: at me.

970
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 2: So that's a perfect segue to where I want to

971
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 2: take stuff next. Cal we've kind of established like what's

972
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 2: happening right now, what's the current version of this right now?

973
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: But really key point to remember for anyone listening is

974
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: that there's been some different, slightly different version of this,

975
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 2: you know, eight years ago or six years ago, or

976
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 2: twenty years ago or thirty years ago, and there's going

977
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 2: to be some new version of this five years from now,

978
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 2: ur twenty years from hour ten, right, There's always going

979
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 2: to be some other interest that would rather use our

980
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 2: public lands for maximum profit or whatever, use them up,

981
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 2: give them away, sell them off. There's going to be

982
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 2: some version of that at some other point in time.

983
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 2: We've also fought back against this in the past. So

984
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 2: what I want to spend the rest of our time doing,

985
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 2: Kal though, is is talking about, Okay, given that, given

986
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 2: that we're in one of those moments now today, how

987
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 2: do we best use the tools and our toolbox to

988
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 2: you know, stand up against that, to protect these places,

989
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 2: to fight for our opportunities and for this public land

990
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 2: system that we have. You mentioned one of them, which

991
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 2: is calling your senators. But I'd love to kind of

992
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 2: dig into some of the weeds on this a little bit,

993
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 2: because there's you hear the standard, oh do this and that,

994
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 2: and that is important. But I think that there's maybe

995
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 2: some lessons that we've learned over the last handful of

996
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 2: years that maybe will allow us to do this even

997
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,439
Speaker 2: better this time around, and maybe even better the next,

998
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,840
Speaker 2: because you know, there's going to be a next and

999
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 2: there's going to be a big one right now. So

1000
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 2: so that said, one of the big questions I've had

1001
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 2: cal the last six weeks or so, as these specific

1002
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 2: current threats have been popping up is around timing, like

1003
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 2: when's the right time to be, you know, raising our

1004
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 2: voices about this, because there's been some people saying, well,

1005
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 2: just wait, just wait and see, let's let the dust settle,

1006
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 2: let's see, you know, if these things that are being

1007
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 2: proposed actually happened before we call our senators or do whatever.

1008
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 2: So my first thought is, what are your thoughts on timing.

1009
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 2: Is this something where we should be waiting to see

1010
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 2: and then going or should we be early and often

1011
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 2: and always. That's something I'm thinking a lot about.

1012
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,280
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, man, and it's it's very worth while. You know,

1013
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 3: Conservation is a high turnover game because things just just

1014
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 3: don't end right. And it's it's funny too, right, because

1015
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 3: it's like our biggest conservation success stories come from the

1016
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:19,240
Speaker 3: biggest conservation failures. Right, Damn near killed all the waterfowl

1017
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 3: in this country. Yeah, what do we talk about is

1018
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 3: like our number one conservation success story run back waterfowl. Yep,

1019
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 3: you know, so you know I would joke like, wouldn't

1020
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 3: it be nice just have a really boring story, right,

1021
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 3: there's no story arc, It's just yeah, we did a

1022
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 3: really good job.

1023
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 2: We didn't screw it up.

1024
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 3: We didn't screw it up, right, But like that's not

1025
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 3: how our community or really any community operates unfortunately. You know,

1026
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 3: if there was like a socialist construct we could implement

1027
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 3: in America, it would be stewardship. Like it'd be like

1028
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 3: you know, Trump had kind of like toyed around with

1029
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 3: or the idea or maybe still brings up of military

1030
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 3: service for citizenship. I would like lump into that civil service, right, yeah,

1031
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 3: and and get people to understand like what we have,

1032
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 3: why it's important, like why it's important to this country,

1033
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 3: from national defense to health, clean water, clean air, all

1034
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 3: those things.

1035
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 2: Right.

1036
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 3: Blocking off areas for agricultural production, you know, things, things

1037
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 3: that we really need long term versus this short term

1038
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 3: thinking of like, well, how do we make money on

1039
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 3: it right now? And by and large, you know, our

1040
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 3: our federally managed lands, they do make money. It's you know,

1041
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 3: people have a hard time, especially when you start thinking

1042
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 3: in terms of gross domestic product to national debt ratio.

1043
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 3: You know, federal dollars spent widely are considered with a

1044
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 3: like a three x multiplayer on the economy. Right, so

1045
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 3: if you pay that timber cruiser that just lost your

1046
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:34,600
Speaker 3: job forty dollars a year, there's a one hundred and

1047
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 3: twenty thousand dollars impact on the local economy. Wow, So

1048
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 3: which is a benefit. It accomplishes our goal of that

1049
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 3: GDP to national debt ratio. You know, it's just like

1050
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 3: where else are we losing money? Anyway? What I would

1051
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 3: say in regards to timing is you want to once

1052
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 3: a week at this point, you want to say, hey,

1053
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 3: just just what I said. This stuff's important to me.

1054
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 3: I want you to know, try to find something your

1055
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 3: senator or congress person has done well currently or in

1056
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 3: the past, and say, hey, remember when you did this,

1057
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 3: We need more of this right now, this is what

1058
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 3: my summer looks like. I want more good work out you,

1059
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 3: I want I want you here type of thing. I

1060
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 3: think that is going to be important because that may

1061
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 3: stave off some things that could potentially be really bad,

1062
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 3: really shocking. Showing up in person, you know, any volunteer

1063
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:56,560
Speaker 3: event for any organization, aside from you know, join an organization,

1064
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,799
Speaker 3: get the newsletters, try to just show up in person.

1065
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,560
Speaker 3: One thing that I'll tell you from you know, just

1066
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 3: a little bit of lobbying up on the hill that

1067
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 3: I've done, is, you know, an in person meeting is

1068
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 3: way way different than an email or a phone call.

1069
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 3: And if you if there's a public event, a public

1070
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:26,160
Speaker 3: lands rally, the diversity that shows up in the room

1071
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 3: for public Lands is very concerning to somebody who wants

1072
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 3: to be elected, right they go, oh wow, here's the

1073
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 3: physical representation of people who vote. And it's hard for

1074
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 3: them to lump people into categories when they all show

1075
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:49,640
Speaker 3: up in person, and it's like a magical thing. It

1076
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 3: may seem a little frivolous at times, but holy cow,

1077
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 3: it makes people think the message it's very important. I

1078
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 3: would I'd say it's very important. And then you know,

1079
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 3: sign up for these newsletters and all these conservation groups

1080
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 3: are gonna be working really hard to keep you informed.

1081
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:19,759
Speaker 3: And you know there's ideas that like with the Sovereign

1082
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 3: Wealth Fund, how are we going to fund that need

1083
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 3: to sell off assets? Our public lands are considered assets.

1084
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 3: That's how they're being discussed as like a real estate transaction.

1085
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:41,639
Speaker 3: I'd love to study real estate. Doesn't make sense to sell,

1086
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 3: Like if you're you're planning a family estate, the longer

1087
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 3: you can hold all the stuff, eventually it goes up

1088
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 3: in price. We're planning a country, right like, we're not

1089
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 3: saying in thirty years we're going to retire, like this

1090
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:07,760
Speaker 3: is for the long, long, long haul. Does not make

1091
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 3: sense to sell this stuff. But people are saying this

1092
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 3: is how we are going to address the national debt,

1093
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 3: this is how we are going to fund sovereign Wealth

1094
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 3: fund that's going to provide kickbacks and man, for me,

1095
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 3: that's just like a line way too far, especially when

1096
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 3: we have a government that provides zero guarantees that we're

1097
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 3: not going to end up right back in this position

1098
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 3: and have literally no pot to piss in at that point.

1099
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,439
Speaker 2: So you bring up something though that I've that I've

1100
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:54,719
Speaker 2: wondered about, which is, you know, there's these red lines.

1101
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 2: There's like the shocking things you're talking about, the stuff

1102
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 2: where the ship really hits the fin yep. And some

1103
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 2: would say, well, you're going to burn your powder too soon,

1104
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 2: if you are freaking out and calling or emailing your

1105
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 2: senators for this first round of layoffs, or if you're

1106
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,240
Speaker 2: throwing a fit because of an executive order that hasn't

1107
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 2: actually been implemented yet just proposed, or if you were

1108
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 2: to you know, basically, the idea here is that you're

1109
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 2: crying wolf too soon, and then when something really, really,

1110
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 2: really shocking actually happens, then you don't have ammunition left,

1111
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 2: or nobody's listening because they're sick and tired of you,

1112
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 2: et cetera. It's eight Is there any validity to that?

1113
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 2: You think? And then, b how do you combat that?

1114
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 2: If that is like a possible thing we have to

1115
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 2: think about.

1116
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, I mean it's a great, great point, right,

1117
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 3: And I think it's it's very much like a strategy

1118
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 3: of some folks within this administration is you get a

1119
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 3: lot of hyperbole out there, inevitable that hyperbole is is

1120
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 3: fought with more hyperbolic statements and eventually you just tune

1121
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 3: it out because you don't know what's what's true or not.

1122
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 3: So I think avoid that as as much as you can.

1123
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,680
Speaker 3: It's it sucks when you're going slow and trying to

1124
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 3: be accurate and make concerted, concise statements and other people

1125
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 3: are not. But that is the risk you run. It's

1126
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 3: like we're gonna whip up into a frenzy, and whip

1127
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 3: up into a frenzy and you'll see a lot of

1128
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:40,680
Speaker 3: those folks have to make these like hard pivots and

1129
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,840
Speaker 3: be like, oh no, that's what we meant. Oh wait, no,

1130
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 3: this is what we meant. And you know it certainly

1131
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 3: isn't appealing to me. But that should not stop you

1132
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 3: at all. You should have this line of communication. You're

1133
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:05,519
Speaker 3: guaranteed this line of communication to your elected officials where

1134
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 3: you can always just say, hey, this stuff that's happening,

1135
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 3: I don't really understand it. It's very concerning to me.

1136
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 3: You need to know this is what's important to me,

1137
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:18,920
Speaker 3: and I need you to represent those interests.

1138
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:23,760
Speaker 2: I like this idea of consistence, you right, Yeah, like

1139
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:25,679
Speaker 2: the idea that you mentioned of like doing this every

1140
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:31,640
Speaker 2: week and that being not you know, not overreacting, but

1141
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 2: simply you're setting expectations like, hey, I'm paying attention. Yeah,

1142
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 2: I didn't just vote you in for you to then

1143
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 2: run free. I'm going to hold you accountable. And I

1144
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:44,400
Speaker 2: think that's that's a really interesting idea and one that

1145
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense to me.

1146
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:49,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And Matt, it is just like you don't

1147
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 3: need to be one side or the other. You can say, hey,

1148
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 3: I like my tax dollars to be spent efficiently. Yep,

1149
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:04,679
Speaker 3: please continue down this path of making sure there isn't waste.

1150
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 3: I would love that. On the other hand, you know,

1151
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 3: the people that my kids go to school with, they

1152
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:17,680
Speaker 3: got to pack up and move because they just got

1153
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:23,679
Speaker 3: laid off. I don't like that. Like, I'm very concerned

1154
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 3: about how this is going to impact where I live

1155
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:33,599
Speaker 3: and where I recreate. Like that's a sensible statement, right, Yeah,

1156
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:40,280
Speaker 3: and yeah, we just we need need more of it,

1157
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:43,599
Speaker 3: and it unfortunately takes people a long time to kind

1158
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 3: of get fired up on on our side of things.

1159
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:51,360
Speaker 2: So we can we can send form letters when we

1160
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,640
Speaker 2: get the action alerts, we can send customized letters and

1161
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 2: you know, basically what you hear is that a form letter?

1162
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 2: You know, gets kind of thrown to a bucket customized.

1163
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 2: The letter maybe counts as five of those, maybe counts

1164
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:05,679
Speaker 2: a little bit more, and then a phone call maybe

1165
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 2: counts as ten x that or whatever. A phone calls

1166
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 2: a little bit more paid attention to possibly, and then

1167
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:13,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure an in person visit is ten x that. Maybe.

1168
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 2: So there's these different levers we can pull within the government,

1169
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 2: and then there's also just the the social energy levers

1170
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:26,719
Speaker 2: we can pull, and that being like telling our friends

1171
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:28,320
Speaker 2: and family, hey, this is a thing you should pay

1172
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 2: attention to, or posting about on social media or talking

1173
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,640
Speaker 2: about it within your local sportsman's group or your conservation

1174
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 2: group you're a member of, or in a local chapter

1175
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:39,280
Speaker 2: or whatever. Like, we can try to make sure this

1176
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:41,719
Speaker 2: stuff's being talked about and raise the energy and rally

1177
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:47,760
Speaker 2: grassroots support. That's another thing we can be doing. And

1178
01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 2: it sounds like with with the connecting with the government

1179
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 2: frequently consistently makes a lot of sense. Keep that going,

1180
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,519
Speaker 2: keep that going, keep that going. What about like the

1181
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 2: grassroots rallying side of things, though, cay with with with

1182
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,839
Speaker 2: trying to not like I'm constantly thinking about this personally,

1183
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 2: trying to avoid issue fatigue. Right, Like if if we

1184
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:11,559
Speaker 2: bring up these things, people get burned out on them,

1185
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 2: and then they tire of it and it's exhausting, and

1186
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:18,919
Speaker 2: then they're not paying attention when the next big thing arises,

1187
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 2: and nobody then is able to rally and talk to

1188
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 2: people and get fired up when they need to. You know,

1189
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:27,200
Speaker 2: how do you think about that? In two ways? One

1190
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 2: as an individual just person and then be also as

1191
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 2: someone with a platform. How are you wrestling with that?

1192
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 3: Yeah? I literally had a guy at the Montana Public

1193
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,680
Speaker 3: Lands rally come up and be like, man, if you're

1194
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:46,800
Speaker 3: not burned out, uh, that's a great sign, right, you're

1195
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:53,479
Speaker 3: always here, which you know, for a guilty Catholic conscience,

1196
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:57,400
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, I'm not here enough. God. Yeah, but

1197
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 3: it is a real thing. I think, you know, up

1198
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:02,679
Speaker 3: the issue hits home enough, people are going to show

1199
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 3: up like they're they're they're just not going to have

1200
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:11,640
Speaker 3: a choice. But I'll I guess I should just like

1201
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 3: explain like how a membership organization works, right, like the

1202
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 3: power behind like backcountry hunters and anglers. When we explain

1203
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:31,880
Speaker 3: our membership, like we give that demographic information, we say,

1204
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 3: here's the age range, here's the median income. Here's how

1205
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 3: people vote. And that's really the reason for you know,

1206
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:53,360
Speaker 3: filling out those those surveys. When when membership organizations send

1207
01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 3: them out is it provides like really strong lobbying power

1208
01:19:58,479 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 3: when that membership organization is in front of the regulation maker,

1209
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 3: the lawmaker, the decision maker to say, hey, this is

1210
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 3: who we represent, this is how many states. This is

1211
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:21,479
Speaker 3: like a good slice of the membership pirade here, and

1212
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:26,960
Speaker 3: it's it's thirty percent conservative, thirty percent liberal, thirty percent independent.

1213
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 3: Hard to pin down. They're young, they're they're energetic, They're

1214
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:36,800
Speaker 3: people who show up. These are the people that are

1215
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:42,880
Speaker 3: out there working on public lands and recreating on public lands.

1216
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 3: That's why you got to listen to us. Like that's

1217
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:52,640
Speaker 3: how all of these membership organizations work, right, And and

1218
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:58,840
Speaker 3: some orgs put like more steak in the in different

1219
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 3: parts of their membership demographic, but and and and you

1220
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 3: know that's that's what you get when you see people

1221
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 3: show up in public too, right, Like you know, I

1222
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:15,720
Speaker 3: was laughing at our state public land rally because you

1223
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 3: like look out at that crowd and it's just so

1224
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 3: hard to say, like here's a one sentence of who

1225
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:27,639
Speaker 3: these people are right, and it's you can't a staffer

1226
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 3: for a politician can't be like, oh, we have this

1227
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 3: vote locked up. They just they can't say that, Like

1228
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 3: it's way too diverse, and especially now, you know, it's like,

1229
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 3: you know, I think some of the polling is proven right.

1230
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 3: It's like Democrats need to get their ship in the pile.

1231
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,479
Speaker 3: They got to restructure, they got to figure out who

1232
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:58,479
Speaker 3: the heck they are. And there's way more Democratic voters

1233
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 3: voting for Republicans because they're they're voting on issues and

1234
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 3: these people I think, you know, I think that's that's

1235
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 3: probably a good thing. You know, it's like get people

1236
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:21,759
Speaker 3: back in tune with demanding what they want, being vocal

1237
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 3: about it, staying in touch and saying, yeah, I don't

1238
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 3: like this stuff that you're doing. I love this stuff.

1239
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:31,800
Speaker 3: I want more of this and less of this. Yeah,

1240
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 3: and that's perfectly reasonable, you know.

1241
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:53,120
Speaker 2: Yeah that that uh, being allegiance to issues and values

1242
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 2: versus just a party without even questioning anything. I think

1243
01:22:56,600 --> 01:22:58,679
Speaker 2: is it is a pretty useful thing that I hope

1244
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 2: we see an uptick in. But but that said, you know,

1245
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 2: back to back to this specific set of issues. Okay,

1246
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 2: So there's this I think we've we've kind of covered,

1247
01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:16,320
Speaker 2: like consistency is important. I think being a part of

1248
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 2: one of these membership groups that they can you know,

1249
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:24,160
Speaker 2: use that membership data and those numbers to then give

1250
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:29,240
Speaker 2: them some leverage with these organizations. That makes sense. You

1251
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 2: need you to do both, Yep, gotta do both, you

1252
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 2: know what of the what kinds of I guess here's

1253
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,599
Speaker 2: another thing I've I've been thinking about a lot too,

1254
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:43,320
Speaker 2: is where like there's a volume, there's a volume control

1255
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 2: on each of us as individuals that we could turn

1256
01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 2: up and down. And I think like maybe at level

1257
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,680
Speaker 2: like three or four is like the just like consistently

1258
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 2: keeping our folks aware of what we care about, thanking

1259
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 2: them for the things that they're doing well, bringing up

1260
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:00,720
Speaker 2: our concerns on the things that are not doing so well.

1261
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 2: Being a member of these organizations, activating when they ask

1262
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 2: us to. I feel like that's like a level three

1263
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 2: or four on the volume kind of thing, three, four, five,

1264
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:12,559
Speaker 2: And that's what a lot of people have been doing

1265
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:15,639
Speaker 2: right now. They're part of these groups. They're giving folks

1266
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 2: a call when stuff happens, They're keeping tabs on the

1267
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 2: news and aware of what's happening, what kind of things

1268
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 2: cal would be a red line moment or a full

1269
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 2: you know, blaring red siren kind of moment for you,

1270
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,160
Speaker 2: where we need to turn our volume up to eight,

1271
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 2: nine or ten. What are the kind of things that

1272
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:40,320
Speaker 2: would require us and that we need to keep an

1273
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:43,439
Speaker 2: eye out for in which we as an outdoor community

1274
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:46,160
Speaker 2: would have to jump up to a whole another level

1275
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 2: of engagement.

1276
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:54,000
Speaker 3: I mean, for me, it'd be any sort of land disposal.

1277
01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:57,600
Speaker 3: Right So, right now we have a role. It's in

1278
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:02,920
Speaker 3: the thirty day comment period right now. Uh, if you

1279
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 3: go to, oh, the federal register, you'll find there's a

1280
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 3: lot happening on the federal register. But you know, it's

1281
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:20,760
Speaker 3: like a daily ticker of what's been happening, uh, from

1282
01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 3: the government. So a lot's happening right now. But there's

1283
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:31,960
Speaker 3: a proposal to roll back the NEPA process, which is

1284
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 3: something that came in under Nixon, and basically it says

1285
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:39,439
Speaker 3: like everything needs to have an environmental review before, before

1286
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 3: something happens, there's got to be an environmental review. That's

1287
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:47,920
Speaker 3: been a real sticking point with a lot of industries,

1288
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 3: even a big sticking point when you know you want

1289
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:58,400
Speaker 3: to do something relatively simple. It can be implemented in

1290
01:25:58,439 --> 01:26:00,439
Speaker 3: a way that makes it just like so burden some

1291
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:04,040
Speaker 3: and bureaucratic and crappy that it's not even worth doing,

1292
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:10,760
Speaker 3: or it can be done really efficiently. There's a large

1293
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:14,240
Speaker 3: concern that the role that rolling back the NEPA process

1294
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 3: is going to make it really efficient to categorize and

1295
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:29,320
Speaker 3: sell off public land. We there's a a mechanism for

1296
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 3: public land sales. If you go in the Federal register

1297
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 3: right now, there's lots and lots of small acreage sales,

1298
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 3: which would be like very normal sometimes we're those are

1299
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 3: part of a land exchange, lots lots of lots of things,

1300
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 3: and they don't need congressional approval to happen. And there's

1301
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:56,200
Speaker 3: an idea that we're going to see some like larger

1302
01:26:56,360 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 3: acreages get jammed in and through that same process with

1303
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:09,240
Speaker 3: the rollback of of NEPA. That is going to be

1304
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:14,920
Speaker 3: a major red line for me, Like you know, I mean, yeah,

1305
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:18,439
Speaker 3: there's I mean, there's there's some some chunks out there

1306
01:27:18,520 --> 01:27:23,000
Speaker 3: that are not going to be like super beneficial for

1307
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:27,800
Speaker 3: wildlife you know here, and there is it in the

1308
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 3: public interest to dispose of it and I ideally get

1309
01:27:33,360 --> 01:27:39,560
Speaker 3: something else. Yeah, I'd I'd listen to that argument. But

1310
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:41,680
Speaker 3: you know, there's a fear here that we're going to

1311
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:45,760
Speaker 3: see some stuff that is really valuable going up on

1312
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 3: that auction block that's going That's going to be a

1313
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:54,240
Speaker 3: red line for me. That's going to be that moment

1314
01:27:54,320 --> 01:27:57,559
Speaker 3: where I'm like, see this is actually happening. You've got

1315
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:03,120
Speaker 3: to tune in right now. And you know, if there

1316
01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:08,720
Speaker 3: are rollbacks of the public comment period that that we're

1317
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 3: guaranteed as as citizens, that's going to be a major

1318
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:22,599
Speaker 3: red line. You know, when we started stopped start losing

1319
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:27,000
Speaker 3: that transparency. A lot of people don't think we have

1320
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 3: transparency right now, but like everything has a public comment

1321
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:32,479
Speaker 3: period attached to it, it can just be hard to

1322
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:41,040
Speaker 3: find unless you're practiced and looking for it. Right. Oh

1323
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:49,280
Speaker 3: and then the other part that kind of goes into

1324
01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:54,559
Speaker 3: your comment about you know, like the boy who cried

1325
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:59,240
Speaker 3: wolf or being too hyperbolic, right is like we've seen

1326
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 3: like Biden administration, there's more oil and gas lease and

1327
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 3: going on than in the previous Trump administration. That doesn't

1328
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:14,479
Speaker 3: mean that that lands being developed that's all tied to

1329
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:21,320
Speaker 3: the free market, which is you know, also an an

1330
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:23,920
Speaker 3: interesting part of going all the way back to that

1331
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:30,120
Speaker 3: GDP and national debt conversation. So as long as those

1332
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:36,360
Speaker 3: leases don't prevent good management from happening, which is a

1333
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 3: question mark and something that tried to get done under

1334
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:43,760
Speaker 3: the Biden administration, where an oil and gas lease if

1335
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:47,640
Speaker 3: it's not being used, if that were to if that

1336
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:52,600
Speaker 3: could still be managed for the grazing plan or the

1337
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:57,599
Speaker 3: habitat plan that so still have wildlife and recreational benefits

1338
01:29:57,680 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 3: even though it's under under a lease that's in active. Yeah,

1339
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:05,960
Speaker 3: I mean like lots of rabbit holes here.

1340
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:12,519
Speaker 2: Well okay, So so just before you go further, I

1341
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:14,640
Speaker 2: want to I want to connect the dots from a

1342
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:18,160
Speaker 2: couple of these redline moments you brought up to an

1343
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 2: action possible action. So what I'm I guess what I'm

1344
01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 2: getting at here is if we have one of these

1345
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:31,400
Speaker 2: moments where stuff gets particularly dire or or a bunch

1346
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:33,800
Speaker 2: of these things that have been proposed all of a

1347
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:35,880
Speaker 2: sudden are actually being implemented. Like if if all of

1348
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 2: these things being proposed all got implemented in a relatively

1349
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 2: short period, I think that there'd be very real cause

1350
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 2: for the Holy Smokes this thing is getting put through,

1351
01:30:44,160 --> 01:30:46,040
Speaker 2: and this thing's getting put through, and this place is gone,

1352
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:49,719
Speaker 2: and this place is et cetera. Right when those moments occur,

1353
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:54,280
Speaker 2: I'm curious about what the action is that we that

1354
01:30:54,400 --> 01:30:57,640
Speaker 2: is an individual listening, what that what that should look like?

1355
01:30:57,760 --> 01:30:59,560
Speaker 2: If if the if the three or four on the

1356
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:03,559
Speaker 2: volume is consistent contact with my representatives and my senator,

1357
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:07,200
Speaker 2: my representative and my senators, then when the shit hits

1358
01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:09,439
Speaker 2: the fan and the volume needs to be turned up

1359
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:12,439
Speaker 2: to eight, nine or ten, what does that look like? Then?

1360
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:16,560
Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking, if if I were to answer this,

1361
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 2: I would say, okay, well I need to be not

1362
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:23,599
Speaker 2: just checking in weekly with them, but you know, actually

1363
01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 2: pounding on the door, showing up in person, like you mentioned,

1364
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:28,559
Speaker 2: trying to make an appointment at or if I've only

1365
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:31,360
Speaker 2: been sending emails, maybe now I'm making phone calls. I

1366
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 2: think this is the moment when concerted, unified opposition, or

1367
01:31:38,240 --> 01:31:42,599
Speaker 2: or getting our voices all together across diverse coalitions matters

1368
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:45,200
Speaker 2: even more so. I think at that point, I'm not

1369
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:47,240
Speaker 2: just going to operate as an individual, but I'd be

1370
01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 2: reaching out to all the groups I'm a member of

1371
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,880
Speaker 2: and reaching out to my local chapter leader or the

1372
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:57,760
Speaker 2: you know, national representative or whoever I can get a

1373
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:02,080
Speaker 2: hold of and saying, hey, you know RMEF or NDA

1374
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:09,479
Speaker 2: or NWTF or BHA or TRCP or whoever, Hey, this

1375
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:13,679
Speaker 2: thing is happening. Are you leveraging our membership and making

1376
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:15,360
Speaker 2: sure all of our voices are being heard on this.

1377
01:32:15,439 --> 01:32:18,040
Speaker 2: So I'd be looking for as an individual doing that,

1378
01:32:18,240 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 2: I would be pushing for my organizations to be doing that.

1379
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 2: I would then also be trying to rally whatever network

1380
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:29,599
Speaker 2: of people I have, whether that be my local buddies

1381
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:32,720
Speaker 2: in the neighborhood or my social media following, or the

1382
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 2: people I work with, or whatever it might be. And

1383
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:40,840
Speaker 2: I think that we then as a larger community need

1384
01:32:40,960 --> 01:32:44,639
Speaker 2: to find ways to then like funnel and create these

1385
01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:48,559
Speaker 2: moments of unified volume, because I think when you look

1386
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:51,759
Speaker 2: back like times when we really broke through the noise

1387
01:32:52,280 --> 01:32:54,760
Speaker 2: and influence positive change, you can look back and say,

1388
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:57,760
Speaker 2: like the Chavett's moment was like kind of like a

1389
01:32:57,920 --> 01:33:01,160
Speaker 2: backbreaking moment for the land transfer movement back then, in

1390
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 2: which you had a week or so period of time

1391
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:09,800
Speaker 2: where voices on the left and the right, hunters and environmentalists, climbers,

1392
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:14,160
Speaker 2: and anglers, Joe Rogan and you know someone on MSNBC

1393
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:17,559
Speaker 2: or whoever. Everyone for a short period of time there

1394
01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:21,400
Speaker 2: was talking about how this proposed bill was a really

1395
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 2: bad idea for public lands and Americans and wildlife and

1396
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:27,719
Speaker 2: hunting and climbing and biking and all that kind of stuff.

1397
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:31,479
Speaker 2: And because everybody talked about it all at once, across

1398
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:37,759
Speaker 2: diverse coalition, we actually had something very real and tangible happen.

1399
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:41,719
Speaker 2: I think that moving forward, if some of these things

1400
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:44,559
Speaker 2: that are you know, being proposed, if they start happening

1401
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 2: amidst all of this other change, plenty of it good,

1402
01:33:48,360 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm not saying it's all bad change,

1403
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 2: but amidst all of this noise, amidst all of this

1404
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:55,640
Speaker 2: stuff going on, we are at very real risk of

1405
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:58,599
Speaker 2: just of our issues disappearing in the background because there's

1406
01:33:59,080 --> 01:34:02,679
Speaker 2: stuff about who knows what, Gaza or immigration or whatever.

1407
01:34:03,400 --> 01:34:08,639
Speaker 2: If we don't have coordinated, unified utilization of our community,

1408
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:11,519
Speaker 2: it'll just be a whisper in the wind and nothing

1409
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 2: happens because of it. What do you think about all that?

1410
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:17,320
Speaker 3: No, I think that's spot on. I mean, I love

1411
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:21,280
Speaker 3: what you said about accountability for the conservation groups as well.

1412
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 3: That's that's something that we definitely saw on the on

1413
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:27,719
Speaker 3: the last time, And there was a lot of outreach

1414
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:31,360
Speaker 3: amongst conservation groups to other conservation groups saying like, hey,

1415
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 3: we need you to be vocal on this. And and

1416
01:34:35,280 --> 01:34:39,400
Speaker 3: sometimes these groups don't don't play well together. And and

1417
01:34:39,560 --> 01:34:42,200
Speaker 3: sometimes we as hunters don't play well together because we

1418
01:34:42,360 --> 01:34:46,479
Speaker 3: love to like be identified in a certain way. Right,

1419
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:50,799
Speaker 3: So public landowner t shirts versus private landowner t shirts

1420
01:34:50,840 --> 01:34:56,479
Speaker 3: and you know the jackassery of of tribalism. I guess

1421
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 3: public lands are beneficial to all Americans. They absolutely are.

1422
01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:09,720
Speaker 3: If those were to go to go away, and I

1423
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:13,960
Speaker 3: mean Mark from you have way more insight into this,

1424
01:35:14,240 --> 01:35:17,920
Speaker 3: but like what if all public land hunters became folks

1425
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:19,679
Speaker 3: competing for private land.

1426
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:22,559
Speaker 2: Lises, Yeah, That'd be a problem for a lot of people.

1427
01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 3: So I'd turn into a golfer probably, So I'd be

1428
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:32,880
Speaker 3: out there like really messing up your day if you

1429
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 3: france yourself a golfer, because I am not, nor am

1430
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:41,880
Speaker 3: I big decorum follower too. So if it's a fancy place,

1431
01:35:42,240 --> 01:35:44,160
Speaker 3: a lot of restoration coming down.

1432
01:35:44,040 --> 01:35:45,680
Speaker 2: The pipe, it's kind of a thing, and a lot

1433
01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:46,760
Speaker 2: of golf courses to kill.

1434
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, dogs are going to be out there

1435
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:58,600
Speaker 3: retrieving my ball. So we need to unify just like

1436
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:03,439
Speaker 3: we did not all that long ago, right, Like, yeah,

1437
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 3: yesterday you're a mountain biker. Today you support public lance.

1438
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:12,719
Speaker 3: You were a kayaker, now you support public lands, hunter,

1439
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:19,840
Speaker 3: horseback rider, motorcycler, you know, single track user, whatever, like,

1440
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:23,800
Speaker 3: you got to come together and support public lance, public

1441
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:30,320
Speaker 3: lance first, your pursuit. Second, put the freakin' election away,

1442
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:40,160
Speaker 3: put the user group bullying, put down bs away. That

1443
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:46,600
Speaker 3: that's yesterday stuff. Like the reason that we pushed so

1444
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:51,320
Speaker 3: hard to have that like public land user campaign is

1445
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:56,160
Speaker 3: because we needed all of our representatives to understand who

1446
01:36:56,320 --> 01:37:00,479
Speaker 3: public land users are, right and and and it's just

1447
01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:03,760
Speaker 3: like that showing up in person thing, right, it is,

1448
01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:07,960
Speaker 3: look at who uses these places, Look at who is

1449
01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:10,519
Speaker 3: standing up to say like this stuff is super important.

1450
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 3: They are part of your voter base. Like they're making

1451
01:37:18,320 --> 01:37:21,200
Speaker 3: the wheels go round on this whole GDP economy thing too.

1452
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:22,040
Speaker 2: Right.

1453
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:25,679
Speaker 3: So, as I've told a friend of ours in common,

1454
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:30,280
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, if the good stuff goes away,

1455
01:37:30,360 --> 01:37:38,800
Speaker 3: what's the point. Right, I've been a taxpayer since I

1456
01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:45,559
Speaker 3: was probably like sixteen and if the good stuff goes away,

1457
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 3: I don't know what the hell the point is. Yeah, right,

1458
01:37:48,720 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 3: I will be like, yeah, doc, cut off my leg.

1459
01:37:53,160 --> 01:37:56,040
Speaker 2: Well that's the risk though, right, I mean, that's you know,

1460
01:37:56,280 --> 01:37:58,639
Speaker 2: our buddy Randy Newberg would say, that's been the plan

1461
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:01,720
Speaker 2: for fifty or whatever it is, as folks have been

1462
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:06,479
Speaker 2: trying to slowly kill these places. Death by a thousand

1463
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:08,240
Speaker 2: cuts to the point where we don't care about the

1464
01:38:08,320 --> 01:38:10,040
Speaker 2: leg anymore, and we're like, hey, I take it whatever,

1465
01:38:11,600 --> 01:38:13,559
Speaker 2: And so that's important. We don't don't let it get

1466
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:18,439
Speaker 2: to that point. Now, give me this kill, give me

1467
01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:20,880
Speaker 2: your take. So if it makes you know, kind of

1468
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:25,720
Speaker 2: recapping a little bit there, concerted unified voice across a

1469
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:27,840
Speaker 2: bunch of different user groups, we can we can do

1470
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,800
Speaker 2: it as individuals. We can pressure any organization that we're

1471
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,720
Speaker 2: a part of to make sure that they're a part

1472
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 2: of this. And of course then we also need to

1473
01:38:37,439 --> 01:38:38,840
Speaker 2: do what we talked about at the beginning, which is

1474
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 2: like consistent contact with our representatives. Now, we got to

1475
01:38:42,240 --> 01:38:45,880
Speaker 2: ramp it up maybe at some point, but you have

1476
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:47,840
Speaker 2: a lot of experience and you've done a great job

1477
01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:51,320
Speaker 2: of maintaining that consistent point of contact with your representatives,

1478
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:54,120
Speaker 2: whether it's a phone call or in person. A lot

1479
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:55,920
Speaker 2: of people have questions about that. A lot of people

1480
01:38:55,920 --> 01:38:59,920
Speaker 2: are nervous about that, intimidated by that. Can you can

1481
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 2: can you give me your take on what a good

1482
01:39:02,160 --> 01:39:07,040
Speaker 2: phone call consists of or what it actually takes to

1483
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:10,560
Speaker 2: somehow get an in person you know, can an individual

1484
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 2: you know reach out to an elective official and somehow

1485
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:16,840
Speaker 2: get an appointment someday, Or how do you sign up

1486
01:39:16,960 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 2: to get be able to testify in front of a

1487
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 2: committee or something like that, whether it be at your

1488
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:26,560
Speaker 2: state or otherwise. A couple of those specific actions I

1489
01:39:26,640 --> 01:39:30,200
Speaker 2: think kind of exist within like a dark black box

1490
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:32,240
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, and I'd love to kind

1491
01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:33,200
Speaker 2: of uncover that a little bit.

1492
01:39:33,800 --> 01:39:36,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's not something that like comes out

1493
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:40,200
Speaker 3: in the newspaper before the legislative session that I'm aware

1494
01:39:40,200 --> 01:39:44,200
Speaker 3: of anyway. So I just you know, I'm I'm like

1495
01:39:46,000 --> 01:39:51,080
Speaker 3: on the older side of millennial had had that wonderful

1496
01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:53,200
Speaker 3: moment in time when cell phones didn't exist. So I'm

1497
01:39:53,200 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 3: not like the most tech savvy person, so I just

1498
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:58,400
Speaker 3: punch everything into Google and figure it out from there.

1499
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:05,320
Speaker 3: But it's not intimidating. It's the people's house, right if

1500
01:40:05,360 --> 01:40:09,519
Speaker 3: you if you do show up to it is a

1501
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 3: little intimidating because there's some decorum there. But people are

1502
01:40:15,920 --> 01:40:21,680
Speaker 3: going to help you out with that, especially if it's

1503
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:23,960
Speaker 3: your first time, as long you know, as long as

1504
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:30,200
Speaker 3: you're being respectful. So hoop on the Google machine, say

1505
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:35,240
Speaker 3: you know, my state's in session. Who's my representative? Each

1506
01:40:35,479 --> 01:40:39,600
Speaker 3: representative has at least a little state provided chunk of website,

1507
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:42,240
Speaker 3: if not their own website. You can sign up for

1508
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:46,800
Speaker 3: their communications. You can sign up for an in person meeting.

1509
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:49,519
Speaker 3: You can try to make a reservation for a phone call.

1510
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:53,160
Speaker 3: A lot of times their office numbers are going to

1511
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:56,320
Speaker 3: be listed. Just just call that number to begin with.

1512
01:40:57,640 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 3: More than likely if it's the office number, you're gonna

1513
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:05,439
Speaker 3: gonna talk with a staffer. And this is you know,

1514
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:09,800
Speaker 3: for a state like Montana, this would be for like

1515
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:13,160
Speaker 3: a senator or congress person, because we've been talking so

1516
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:16,040
Speaker 3: much about the federal level, like for a state rep

1517
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:24,360
Speaker 3: like you're. This blows people's mind. But and I've it's

1518
01:41:24,439 --> 01:41:26,360
Speaker 3: taken the wind out of me a couple of times

1519
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:32,840
Speaker 3: where I've been honestly quite agitated pissed over some bill

1520
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:35,120
Speaker 3: that I didn't see, ey'd eye with. I look up

1521
01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:39,519
Speaker 3: the person, I call the phone number and I get hello.

1522
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:41,560
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, who is this?

1523
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:42,559
Speaker 2: Ah?

1524
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:47,479
Speaker 3: This is and it's the representative who introduced the bill.

1525
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:51,160
Speaker 3: And he's out driving a tractor, you know, And I'm like, ah,

1526
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:56,280
Speaker 3: damn it. You're just a people just like me. Yeah,

1527
01:41:57,439 --> 01:42:00,920
Speaker 3: And and then you say, yeah, hey, I wanted to

1528
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:05,280
Speaker 3: talk to you about this, and you know, it's good.

1529
01:42:05,880 --> 01:42:08,200
Speaker 3: They're they're probably gonna ask if it's a staff or

1530
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:12,160
Speaker 3: they will ask like where are you from, Like like

1531
01:42:12,560 --> 01:42:16,280
Speaker 3: what's your tax address? Basically is what they're saying, So

1532
01:42:16,400 --> 01:42:20,960
Speaker 3: they can say like from this region or district right,

1533
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:25,040
Speaker 3: and then yeah, you just keep it short, say hey,

1534
01:42:25,120 --> 01:42:26,719
Speaker 3: this is who I am, this is why this matters.

1535
01:42:28,080 --> 01:42:32,680
Speaker 3: Thank you, you know, make sure the congressman or the

1536
01:42:32,760 --> 01:42:38,479
Speaker 3: senator or whomever gets it. And and and that's that's

1537
01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:41,960
Speaker 3: really what happens. It's not a big deal, like it's

1538
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:45,439
Speaker 3: it's their job. It's your job if you get up

1539
01:42:46,160 --> 01:42:53,720
Speaker 3: while your state's in session. There's all sorts of In Montana.

1540
01:42:54,160 --> 01:42:57,640
Speaker 3: It's called l e G like legislature l e G

1541
01:42:58,040 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 3: M T DOT G O v forward slash participate and

1542
01:43:03,240 --> 01:43:06,599
Speaker 3: I hit that our states and session montanasin session right now.

1543
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:09,320
Speaker 3: I hit that every single day every morning while I

1544
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:16,880
Speaker 3: drink and drinking coffee and I roll through what what's

1545
01:43:16,920 --> 01:43:22,559
Speaker 3: coming up for testimony? And you know, I like, I'll

1546
01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:25,040
Speaker 3: rip up to Helen. I'm only two hours away from Helena,

1547
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:27,479
Speaker 3: and I'll rip up to Helena. If something's going to

1548
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 3: go into a committee and I have a chance to

1549
01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:33,040
Speaker 3: comment on it, I want to go up there and

1550
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:38,960
Speaker 3: and and be present and hold hold my lawmakers accountable.

1551
01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:39,479
Speaker 1: Right and.

1552
01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:45,639
Speaker 3: Everybody has the ability to weigh in on a lot

1553
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:50,760
Speaker 3: of these a lot of these bills, Like you'll read

1554
01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:57,439
Speaker 3: these bills and know how they impact you, know how

1555
01:43:57,640 --> 01:44:02,080
Speaker 3: how they'll impact generations beyond you, know how they'll impact

1556
01:44:02,160 --> 01:44:07,840
Speaker 3: your river streams, wildlife. It is not above you, It

1557
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:08,760
Speaker 3: just just is not.

1558
01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:23,760
Speaker 2: What does it take to to sign up to be

1559
01:44:23,840 --> 01:44:26,120
Speaker 2: able to testify in front of a committee like that?

1560
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:29,479
Speaker 2: Do you have to sign up somewhere and go through

1561
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:32,760
Speaker 2: some kind of screening procedure or can you literally find

1562
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 2: out when that's happening and show up that morning and

1563
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:37,480
Speaker 2: sign in on a piece of paper on a clipboard

1564
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:38,760
Speaker 2: and wait your turn and there you go.

1565
01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:41,519
Speaker 3: Piece of paper and a clipboard. Is still how it's

1566
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:43,479
Speaker 3: done in the great state of Montana. You can you

1567
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:48,720
Speaker 3: can also testify online, which is great, you know. I

1568
01:44:48,760 --> 01:44:52,240
Speaker 3: mean it was twenty below and white out snowstorms during

1569
01:44:52,280 --> 01:44:56,439
Speaker 3: the legislative session for part of the legislative session, so

1570
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,719
Speaker 3: that that's an awesome option. And you know, a couple

1571
01:44:59,760 --> 01:45:03,000
Speaker 3: of the online ones that I was set to testify

1572
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 3: on through the wonderful world of politics, they actually got

1573
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:17,040
Speaker 3: settled favorably. Those bills got tabled before I even had

1574
01:45:17,080 --> 01:45:21,519
Speaker 3: a chance to testify. It was great. They did it

1575
01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:26,880
Speaker 3: without me, Mark, What can you do? Yeah? But yeah,

1576
01:45:27,000 --> 01:45:29,280
Speaker 3: so it's yeah, they want you to sign up two

1577
01:45:29,320 --> 01:45:31,080
Speaker 3: hours ahead of time, right.

1578
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:35,840
Speaker 2: I have to unfortunately cut us a little bit short

1579
01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:42,519
Speaker 2: due to a family situation. All right, we had to

1580
01:45:42,600 --> 01:45:47,800
Speaker 2: take a brief, impromptu twenty four hour break there. Sorry, Cal,

1581
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:53,280
Speaker 2: but we left things off where you had been telling

1582
01:45:53,360 --> 01:45:57,200
Speaker 2: me about kind of best practices for you know, calling

1583
01:45:57,640 --> 01:46:01,080
Speaker 2: your senators or congress man or woman, and then what's

1584
01:46:01,120 --> 01:46:04,760
Speaker 2: all involved with actually showing up for in person testimony

1585
01:46:05,560 --> 01:46:09,120
Speaker 2: or meeting with someone. I've got kind of two final

1586
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:12,240
Speaker 2: last things. I just want to quickly touch on with you.

1587
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 2: And one of those is about this this flip side

1588
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:17,760
Speaker 2: of the equation. We've spent a bunch of time talking

1589
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:20,200
Speaker 2: about how you reach out to your elected officials. But

1590
01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:22,320
Speaker 2: then there's this other side of what we're trying to do,

1591
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:27,640
Speaker 2: which is actually getting just average everyday people us involved

1592
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:31,800
Speaker 2: and engaged and kind of rising up and talking about

1593
01:46:31,800 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 2: and advocating on these things. So how do we get

1594
01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:37,960
Speaker 2: our friends and family members and peer group and coworkers,

1595
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:41,160
Speaker 2: how do we engage them, help them be aware of

1596
01:46:41,200 --> 01:46:43,800
Speaker 2: these things, activate them to get involved with all this

1597
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:46,320
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. And one thing I've seen a lot

1598
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:50,160
Speaker 2: of on social media around this issue is there's a

1599
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:54,320
Speaker 2: lot of you know, your team did this, so you

1600
01:46:54,400 --> 01:46:57,560
Speaker 2: guys are a bunch of assholes, or well, this is

1601
01:46:57,680 --> 01:46:59,960
Speaker 2: my team and you know they're doing some really good things.

1602
01:47:00,400 --> 01:47:02,439
Speaker 2: So I don't think we should give them a hard

1603
01:47:02,479 --> 01:47:04,519
Speaker 2: time about this one because I like everything else they're doing.

1604
01:47:04,840 --> 01:47:06,960
Speaker 2: And you're an asshole because you're giving my team a

1605
01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:08,680
Speaker 2: hard time. And there's all this kind of back and

1606
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 2: forth and name calling and your team versus my team,

1607
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:14,880
Speaker 2: and it gets ugly really fast. I mean, you've seen

1608
01:47:14,920 --> 01:47:17,240
Speaker 2: it in the comment sections of lots of things out

1609
01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:20,360
Speaker 2: there around this issue, and I don't see that really

1610
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:23,400
Speaker 2: helping at all. I don't see that leading to any

1611
01:47:23,479 --> 01:47:26,240
Speaker 2: minds being changed. I don't see that leading to anyone

1612
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:30,080
Speaker 2: wanting to get more involved and advocate for our public lands.

1613
01:47:30,479 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 2: It's just not helpful. What I have found helpful is,

1614
01:47:36,280 --> 01:47:41,240
Speaker 2: you know, approaching the idea of protecting our public lands

1615
01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:44,519
Speaker 2: and encouraging other people to do the same through like

1616
01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 2: shared values, by pointing out, hey, you love to deer

1617
01:47:49,160 --> 01:47:51,600
Speaker 2: hunt on this stuff, I love to trout fish on

1618
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,200
Speaker 2: this stuff, or maybe you love to ride your UTV

1619
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:56,519
Speaker 2: on this stuff and I love to camp out here

1620
01:47:57,080 --> 01:47:59,720
Speaker 2: or whatever the thing is. But finding something that we

1621
01:48:00,040 --> 01:48:03,760
Speaker 2: aaron common around these things and framing you know, our

1622
01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:06,599
Speaker 2: ideas or the way we're trying to share this other

1623
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:10,639
Speaker 2: people around that versus you versus me, your guys versus

1624
01:48:10,720 --> 01:48:13,240
Speaker 2: my guys. And I'm just kind of curious Cale if

1625
01:48:13,280 --> 01:48:15,320
Speaker 2: you have any thoughts on that when it comes to

1626
01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:17,719
Speaker 2: you know, how should we be talking about this publicly?

1627
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:19,320
Speaker 2: How do we bring this up to our mom or

1628
01:48:19,400 --> 01:48:22,400
Speaker 2: dad or our buddies. How do we get more folks

1629
01:48:22,880 --> 01:48:24,920
Speaker 2: to do the kind of stuff that you've been talking

1630
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:27,439
Speaker 2: about so that we're in a better position in our

1631
01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 2: public lands are not threatened in the future.

1632
01:48:30,760 --> 01:48:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a lot of good points, Mark, I think, yeah,

1633
01:48:38,240 --> 01:48:42,960
Speaker 3: getting through this barrier that you know, you're not a

1634
01:48:43,080 --> 01:48:45,800
Speaker 3: hypocrite if you vote for somebody, but you want them

1635
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:50,599
Speaker 3: to perform better someplace else. Like just recent example, right,

1636
01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 3: Like I have a friend he's been married, he's got kids.

1637
01:48:55,120 --> 01:48:56,759
Speaker 3: He forgot to take one of the kids to school,

1638
01:48:57,560 --> 01:49:01,840
Speaker 3: and his wife who is very very invested in him,

1639
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:06,000
Speaker 3: very invested in raising their children together. That you know,

1640
01:49:06,520 --> 01:49:12,560
Speaker 3: it is team family unit first and foremost, right, But

1641
01:49:12,720 --> 01:49:16,519
Speaker 3: that didn't prevent her from saying, hey, it's your turn

1642
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:21,000
Speaker 3: to take the kid to school. It's very important you

1643
01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:23,920
Speaker 3: need to improve on your time management skills.

1644
01:49:24,280 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 2: This is an amazing metaphor, by the way.

1645
01:49:27,439 --> 01:49:31,080
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, it doesn't say our marriage is trash.

1646
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:34,599
Speaker 3: I don't love you anymore. We're raising these kids all

1647
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:39,479
Speaker 3: wrong because I'm pointing out that you didn't take the

1648
01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:43,240
Speaker 3: time to get it on your schedule correctly. I may

1649
01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:46,280
Speaker 3: be very frustrated with you in the moment, but I'm

1650
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:50,080
Speaker 3: not saying all the rest of this is crumbling, is it?

1651
01:49:50,520 --> 01:49:53,280
Speaker 3: I need you to do better on this one thing

1652
01:49:53,439 --> 01:49:57,639
Speaker 3: right now. Yes, And I feel like that is something

1653
01:49:57,840 --> 01:50:04,960
Speaker 3: a lot of America can should resonate with, right, And

1654
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:10,439
Speaker 3: it is not taboo, it's not hypocritical. It is very

1655
01:50:11,000 --> 01:50:17,280
Speaker 3: very normal. Like those people put themselves in this position

1656
01:50:18,400 --> 01:50:20,920
Speaker 3: by getting out in front of everybody and saying elect me.

1657
01:50:22,880 --> 01:50:25,920
Speaker 3: It is our right, is our duty to say, hey,

1658
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:29,280
Speaker 3: you are messing this up and let me tell you

1659
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:34,840
Speaker 3: exactly why what's in jeopardy. Is your job if you

1660
01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:37,760
Speaker 3: want to go that route, but you can absolutely say, hey,

1661
01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:42,519
Speaker 3: I love what you're doing over here telling everybody about it,

1662
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:46,880
Speaker 3: but what gets thrown back at me is this thing

1663
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:49,120
Speaker 3: over here, and this thing over here really bugs me.

1664
01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:49,960
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1665
01:50:50,479 --> 01:50:50,639
Speaker 2: Right?

1666
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:54,280
Speaker 3: And in this case, you know, public lands, public water,

1667
01:50:54,640 --> 01:51:02,080
Speaker 3: public wildlife incredibly important to the country, as we've already covered,

1668
01:51:02,360 --> 01:51:06,479
Speaker 3: and it's something that like everybody really can get behind,

1669
01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:10,599
Speaker 3: and in my personal opinion, the ones who can't, it's

1670
01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:12,840
Speaker 3: because they just don't know a damn thing about them.

1671
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1672
01:51:15,160 --> 01:51:19,720
Speaker 2: True. Do you do you feel like, do you feel

1673
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:22,600
Speaker 2: like there's anything that we have missed from from like

1674
01:51:22,680 --> 01:51:25,040
Speaker 2: a strategic perspective, Because we kind of came into this

1675
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:30,040
Speaker 2: conversation with the goal of putting together a blueprint or

1676
01:51:30,479 --> 01:51:35,719
Speaker 2: like a game plan for how to fight back against

1677
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:38,400
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff, either right now or in the future.

1678
01:51:39,160 --> 01:51:41,080
Speaker 2: I think we've we've talked quite a bit about, you know,

1679
01:51:41,520 --> 01:51:43,920
Speaker 2: having contact with your representatives. We've talked a little bit

1680
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:46,320
Speaker 2: about what you just mentioned, which is, you know, being

1681
01:51:46,360 --> 01:51:48,960
Speaker 2: willing to speak to our own team about this stuff

1682
01:51:49,200 --> 01:51:52,200
Speaker 2: and not feeling bad about that. We've talked a little

1683
01:51:52,240 --> 01:51:55,080
Speaker 2: bit about, you know, engaging in this kind of thing

1684
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:59,480
Speaker 2: outside of the partisan bickering. Are there any like tactical

1685
01:51:59,640 --> 01:52:03,120
Speaker 2: things or strategic sides of this that we've missed or

1686
01:52:03,200 --> 01:52:05,280
Speaker 2: glossed over that you think are really important when it

1687
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:07,120
Speaker 2: comes to like what we actually do.

1688
01:52:08,760 --> 01:52:13,840
Speaker 3: Well. Broad diverse coalitions is what get things across the

1689
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:19,280
Speaker 3: line right now, right and and probably forever. We kind

1690
01:52:19,280 --> 01:52:20,920
Speaker 3: of got into this a little bit, but it's like

1691
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:26,479
Speaker 3: that diversity of membership is a giant strength. So that

1692
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:30,360
Speaker 3: is something I like to keep in mind. Like HB

1693
01:52:30,439 --> 01:52:34,720
Speaker 3: three oh seven here in Montana, which is another you know,

1694
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:41,880
Speaker 3: misguided effort to fund other programs by stealing habitat funding

1695
01:52:43,160 --> 01:52:47,200
Speaker 3: that we all voted for in Montana. It's really frustrating

1696
01:52:47,400 --> 01:52:51,960
Speaker 3: to me because we brought recreational marijuana into the state

1697
01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:57,640
Speaker 3: of Montana. A huge argument around that was where the

1698
01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:01,519
Speaker 3: taxes are going to go, and it passed because the

1699
01:53:01,640 --> 01:53:06,280
Speaker 3: taxes that come from the sales of recreational marijuana, we're

1700
01:53:06,320 --> 01:53:13,439
Speaker 3: gonna go to fund habitat and access recreation in the

1701
01:53:13,479 --> 01:53:17,200
Speaker 3: state of Montana. And the last legislative session they got

1702
01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:19,559
Speaker 3: to build through that stole some of that cash because

1703
01:53:19,560 --> 01:53:21,320
Speaker 3: they were like, oh my god, we didn't know people

1704
01:53:21,320 --> 01:53:25,559
Speaker 3: were gonna buy that much pot. And now we got

1705
01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:30,840
Speaker 3: this HB three oh seven that is doing the same

1706
01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:34,080
Speaker 3: thing with basically the rest of the cash, and we

1707
01:53:34,160 --> 01:53:36,560
Speaker 3: have a surplus in the state of Montana. There's no

1708
01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:42,799
Speaker 3: use sorry, there's no reason to take this money. Literally,

1709
01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:46,400
Speaker 3: like fund state parks and some fishing access sites and

1710
01:53:47,160 --> 01:53:51,479
Speaker 3: things that like people really use. So finding all the

1711
01:53:51,600 --> 01:53:58,800
Speaker 3: ways to represent who and why that stuff's important is

1712
01:53:58,960 --> 01:54:02,559
Speaker 3: really effected. So you know, I called yesterday and said, Hey,

1713
01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:07,800
Speaker 3: I'm representing a business in Bozeman, Montana. It's called meat Eater.

1714
01:54:08,840 --> 01:54:13,200
Speaker 3: We got a bunch of employees, we got an insanely

1715
01:54:13,439 --> 01:54:18,160
Speaker 3: high cost of living in this town. It's brutal. We

1716
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:23,639
Speaker 3: have very talented people, but things are so expensive here,

1717
01:54:24,160 --> 01:54:26,600
Speaker 3: it's very hard to get those people here. And what

1718
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:32,840
Speaker 3: gets them here is access to recreation. Like that is

1719
01:54:32,920 --> 01:54:36,800
Speaker 3: a major recruiting tool for us. And the type of

1720
01:54:36,880 --> 01:54:39,400
Speaker 3: people that we want and need in this business are

1721
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:44,360
Speaker 3: the people who love the outdoors and they are willing

1722
01:54:44,440 --> 01:54:48,000
Speaker 3: to sacrifice some pay by living in a very very

1723
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:52,080
Speaker 3: expensive place because they have access to the outdoors. And

1724
01:54:52,600 --> 01:54:55,080
Speaker 3: that's why this funding is critical, Like it is mission

1725
01:54:55,160 --> 01:55:00,760
Speaker 3: critical to our business, how we operate, and this is

1726
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:04,200
Speaker 3: how many people we employ. We got a big impact

1727
01:55:04,280 --> 01:55:08,560
Speaker 3: on this town, in this economy that could go away

1728
01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:10,200
Speaker 3: if we don't have access to the outdoors.

1729
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:13,040
Speaker 2: I think that's a great way to frame it too

1730
01:55:13,280 --> 01:55:14,000
Speaker 2: for someone to hear.

1731
01:55:15,320 --> 01:55:19,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, like when I used to do

1732
01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:21,480
Speaker 3: some fly ins and stuff back on the first light

1733
01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:26,120
Speaker 3: side of things, like that's how folks would form groups

1734
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:30,840
Speaker 3: to go lobby senator or congress person, and you know

1735
01:55:30,920 --> 01:55:33,240
Speaker 3: it's like, Okay, we need a tribal interest, we need

1736
01:55:33,320 --> 01:55:38,360
Speaker 3: a business interest, we need a recreational interest, and we

1737
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:42,640
Speaker 3: need to make sure that everybody has their five minutes

1738
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:48,400
Speaker 3: and three good talking points so our time's really valuable.

1739
01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:51,240
Speaker 3: Like something's going to stick with this person, because what

1740
01:55:51,400 --> 01:55:54,160
Speaker 3: happens in those rooms, right is like there's somebody taking

1741
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:56,720
Speaker 3: notes and they're like, oh yeah, we heard from the plumbers.

1742
01:55:57,480 --> 01:56:00,840
Speaker 3: Don't need any more plumbers. Heard from the teachers, don't

1743
01:56:00,880 --> 01:56:01,800
Speaker 3: need any more teachers.

1744
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:02,920
Speaker 2: Right.

1745
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:07,320
Speaker 3: So in the rec space, okay, we heard from the

1746
01:56:07,360 --> 01:56:11,120
Speaker 3: fly fisherman. Okay, now we heard heard from the gear fishermen,

1747
01:56:11,800 --> 01:56:14,520
Speaker 3: heard from the horseback riders. We need the motorcyclists in there.

1748
01:56:14,600 --> 01:56:20,440
Speaker 3: We need this diverse group of interests. And what we

1749
01:56:20,640 --> 01:56:27,960
Speaker 3: need these folks in office to feel like is it's

1750
01:56:28,040 --> 01:56:32,640
Speaker 3: not me versus that person, it's me versus everybody. Yeah,

1751
01:56:33,200 --> 01:56:34,280
Speaker 3: this is a bad idea.

1752
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:37,440
Speaker 2: You bring up a good point with that in that,

1753
01:56:38,240 --> 01:56:40,360
Speaker 2: you know, if you think about every one of us

1754
01:56:41,000 --> 01:56:44,280
Speaker 2: listening right now, we are part of a lot of

1755
01:56:44,320 --> 01:56:47,680
Speaker 2: different groups, right. I think there's something to be said

1756
01:56:47,720 --> 01:56:50,920
Speaker 2: about you know, we can have our individual influence with

1757
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:54,120
Speaker 2: like me emailing or calling or showing up and talking

1758
01:56:54,120 --> 01:56:56,880
Speaker 2: to my senator. But then to your point, I think

1759
01:56:56,960 --> 01:57:00,120
Speaker 2: we as individuals can also try to engage whatever or

1760
01:57:00,120 --> 01:57:02,160
Speaker 2: other groups we're part of. So if you're part of

1761
01:57:02,200 --> 01:57:04,120
Speaker 2: a horse riding club or if you're a part of

1762
01:57:04,200 --> 01:57:06,760
Speaker 2: an off roading club, or if you're part of some

1763
01:57:07,080 --> 01:57:12,320
Speaker 2: organization that's really into trail trailer running or whatever it is.

1764
01:57:13,040 --> 01:57:16,480
Speaker 2: Let's get every one of those different groups singing this

1765
01:57:16,640 --> 01:57:19,480
Speaker 2: same tune, anyone who's dependent on these places, like, we

1766
01:57:19,600 --> 01:57:23,480
Speaker 2: need you, we need the runners, we need the climbers.

1767
01:57:23,720 --> 01:57:27,720
Speaker 2: I want to see Patagonia and First Light and Sikka

1768
01:57:28,280 --> 01:57:32,160
Speaker 2: and Yamaha and Costa and every one of these different

1769
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:39,240
Speaker 2: businesses slash communities slash recreational you know, slices. We all

1770
01:57:39,640 --> 01:57:42,520
Speaker 2: have got to get on this one and in future

1771
01:57:42,560 --> 01:57:44,960
Speaker 2: efforts if we want to be heard and actually paid

1772
01:57:45,000 --> 01:57:47,680
Speaker 2: attention to, right, and each one of us can influence

1773
01:57:48,120 --> 01:57:51,480
Speaker 2: some group, whether it's five people or five hundred or fifty.

1774
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:57,440
Speaker 3: Oh, it is not an exaggeration. And I do get frustrated.

1775
01:57:57,440 --> 01:58:00,120
Speaker 3: I understand where the frustration comes from. But it's like,

1776
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:03,400
Speaker 3: you know, it's the thing that we were all taught, right,

1777
01:58:03,520 --> 01:58:05,920
Speaker 3: like little Engine that Could or whatever it is. Right,

1778
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:08,480
Speaker 3: it's like, if at first you don't succeed, try try again,

1779
01:58:08,920 --> 01:58:14,960
Speaker 3: and it is consistency. And you know, there's all these

1780
01:58:15,080 --> 01:58:21,880
Speaker 3: avenues that our elected officials open up to communicate with us.

1781
01:58:22,720 --> 01:58:28,520
Speaker 3: There are also two way streets, right, So if you're clear, concise,

1782
01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:36,000
Speaker 3: respectful on social media, you can hit them there, hit

1783
01:58:36,080 --> 01:58:38,720
Speaker 3: them in their email box, hit them in public meeting,

1784
01:58:39,440 --> 01:58:43,240
Speaker 3: try to get a private meeting, testify in a committee.

1785
01:58:43,880 --> 01:58:50,440
Speaker 3: There's all these different ways, right, and that's really expected,

1786
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:54,400
Speaker 3: and enough of it will break through the noise.

1787
01:58:56,440 --> 01:59:00,480
Speaker 2: I feel like there has been a long period of

1788
01:59:00,560 --> 01:59:05,480
Speaker 2: time where at least we as hunters have had a

1789
01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:10,040
Speaker 2: little bit of a fat and sassy vibe and that

1790
01:59:10,200 --> 01:59:14,320
Speaker 2: we would say, well, we bought our licenses, we're conservationists, right,

1791
01:59:14,440 --> 01:59:16,920
Speaker 2: Like I checked the box, bought my license. Now I'm good.

1792
01:59:17,720 --> 01:59:20,040
Speaker 2: I think we're getting to a point now, cal it

1793
01:59:20,120 --> 01:59:23,080
Speaker 2: has been for a while, but I think now we

1794
01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:26,920
Speaker 2: also need to kind of say, at least I internally

1795
01:59:27,080 --> 01:59:29,720
Speaker 2: or individually believe that, you know, part of being a hunter,

1796
01:59:30,080 --> 01:59:32,200
Speaker 2: or part of being a backpacker, or part of being

1797
01:59:32,280 --> 01:59:34,879
Speaker 2: any one of these things is also being an advocate

1798
01:59:35,000 --> 01:59:36,880
Speaker 2: for them in the ways that you just described. I

1799
01:59:36,920 --> 01:59:40,240
Speaker 2: think that almost has to be an obligation today, given

1800
01:59:41,280 --> 01:59:45,080
Speaker 2: you the so many different pressures on these public lands

1801
01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:47,440
Speaker 2: and wildlife that we care about. If we want to

1802
01:59:47,520 --> 01:59:50,240
Speaker 2: keep them around for the next five years or fifty

1803
01:59:50,480 --> 01:59:54,000
Speaker 2: for my kids now or my great great grandkids. We

1804
01:59:54,080 --> 01:59:55,800
Speaker 2: got to be both. We need to be a hunter

1805
01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 2: and an advocates. It's not really an option anymore. I

1806
01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:01,320
Speaker 2: don't think it's not.

1807
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:04,960
Speaker 3: And you know, the proof is already in the pudding,

1808
02:00:06,800 --> 02:00:11,280
Speaker 3: you know, if you I think about it this way, right, Like,

1809
02:00:11,680 --> 02:00:15,120
Speaker 3: no hunter likes pressure. We don't like having I was

1810
02:00:15,200 --> 02:00:17,200
Speaker 3: just explaining to a guy, you know, I'm like, you know,

1811
02:00:17,320 --> 02:00:21,120
Speaker 3: where I grew up, pressure was represented by one other

1812
02:00:21,280 --> 02:00:25,200
Speaker 3: vehicle at the end of that you know, next to

1813
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:29,040
Speaker 3: the locked forest service gate or at the trailhead. That's

1814
02:00:29,080 --> 02:00:33,400
Speaker 3: what pressure was to me. That's obviously very different now

1815
02:00:33,560 --> 02:00:38,960
Speaker 3: and in a lot of other places. But if the

1816
02:00:39,080 --> 02:00:44,000
Speaker 3: landscape right now would be so dramatically different, so dramatically different,

1817
02:00:44,720 --> 02:00:50,400
Speaker 3: if every hunter stood up for every disputed easement. Every

1818
02:00:50,440 --> 02:00:52,520
Speaker 3: time somebody buys a chunk of property that has an

1819
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:56,160
Speaker 3: easement going through it that's designed around public access and

1820
02:00:56,280 --> 02:00:59,000
Speaker 3: people don't weigh in and we lose that, that just

1821
02:00:59,080 --> 02:01:02,200
Speaker 3: concentrates more and more of us at the same trailheads

1822
02:01:02,680 --> 02:01:06,640
Speaker 3: or the existing easements, and every freaking time, man, people

1823
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:10,080
Speaker 3: are like, I can't believe that happened, never again. And

1824
02:01:10,160 --> 02:01:13,200
Speaker 3: then it's like, well, where were you at you said

1825
02:01:13,280 --> 02:01:17,120
Speaker 3: never again, right, And it's like we're living in a

1826
02:01:17,240 --> 02:01:20,440
Speaker 3: landscape that we have built for ourselves and we don't

1827
02:01:20,440 --> 02:01:23,760
Speaker 3: want to admit it. Like we have got to be

1828
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:29,080
Speaker 3: consistent and it's got to become normal and just part

1829
02:01:29,280 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 3: of what we do and we will reap the benefits

1830
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:36,040
Speaker 3: for it. Like going back to the presidential election, right,

1831
02:01:36,160 --> 02:01:42,280
Speaker 3: like what happened in October November, the Democrats and the

1832
02:01:42,360 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 3: Republicans were like, oh my god, this big group of

1833
02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:51,160
Speaker 3: people that identify as hunters also identify largely as independent voters.

1834
02:01:54,200 --> 02:01:56,080
Speaker 3: Everybody's saying the race is going to be super tight.

1835
02:01:56,200 --> 02:01:58,080
Speaker 3: We need the hunters, we need the hunters. We need

1836
02:01:58,160 --> 02:02:03,120
Speaker 3: the hunters like they do. They need the hunters. And

1837
02:02:04,440 --> 02:02:08,680
Speaker 3: that also signals to everybody who's a hunter to say, hey,

1838
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:12,600
Speaker 3: you guys needed us to get elected. This is what

1839
02:02:12,720 --> 02:02:16,720
Speaker 3: we need you to do. And it does not matter

1840
02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:19,400
Speaker 3: who you voted for. And man, if I can make

1841
02:02:19,440 --> 02:02:21,800
Speaker 3: a plea again, I don't know, I've made several on

1842
02:02:21,880 --> 02:02:26,400
Speaker 3: this podcast. It's like election's over. Man, who gives a

1843
02:02:26,640 --> 02:02:31,440
Speaker 3: crap at this point, Like it is over. Don't point

1844
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:34,320
Speaker 3: fingers at people, don't say, oh, you voted for this

1845
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:37,400
Speaker 3: like sit and simmer in it like that has never

1846
02:02:38,120 --> 02:02:43,080
Speaker 3: ever been how our politics have worked in America. We

1847
02:02:43,240 --> 02:02:46,000
Speaker 3: have this beautiful system where you can continually weigh in

1848
02:02:46,960 --> 02:02:50,840
Speaker 3: and again, Man, if you don't do it, somebody else

1849
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:52,560
Speaker 3: will and you may not like what they have to

1850
02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:53,720
Speaker 3: say on your behalf right.

1851
02:02:54,840 --> 02:02:57,920
Speaker 2: So true. So, Cal, You've got one of the best

1852
02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:02,680
Speaker 2: platform for keeping people up to date on these kinds

1853
02:03:02,720 --> 02:03:05,680
Speaker 2: of issues and helping people understand how they can take

1854
02:03:05,760 --> 02:03:07,880
Speaker 2: action and do this kind of stuff. Can you just

1855
02:03:07,960 --> 02:03:10,360
Speaker 2: remind listeners here as we close things out on where

1856
02:03:10,400 --> 02:03:13,400
Speaker 2: they can catch your podcast, where they can take action

1857
02:03:13,520 --> 02:03:14,840
Speaker 2: on some of the things you talk about there on

1858
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:17,840
Speaker 2: the podcast, and anything else you want people to know about.

1859
02:03:19,360 --> 02:03:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the Cow in the Wild feed on the

1860
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:28,560
Speaker 3: Meat Eater Network is you know, it's supposed to be

1861
02:03:28,680 --> 02:03:34,400
Speaker 3: like quick quick download information every week and we can

1862
02:03:34,440 --> 02:03:36,280
Speaker 3: point in a lot of directions from there. But yeah,

1863
02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:40,040
Speaker 3: the Cal's Weekend Review is kind of like the news

1864
02:03:40,120 --> 02:03:44,000
Speaker 3: source and there's plenty of this in there and try

1865
02:03:44,040 --> 02:03:47,240
Speaker 3: to grab something from as many states as possible, but

1866
02:03:48,120 --> 02:03:50,920
Speaker 3: just just kind of like a buyer beware there is

1867
02:03:52,320 --> 02:03:55,240
Speaker 3: The intention is to just get you fired up about

1868
02:03:55,320 --> 02:03:59,840
Speaker 3: things that are happening, so you are motivated sufficiently to

1869
02:04:00,320 --> 02:04:02,600
Speaker 3: check for yourself what is going on in your state.

1870
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:04,360
Speaker 3: That's that's the end goal.

1871
02:04:06,040 --> 02:04:08,760
Speaker 2: What's that ur l for the website where folks can

1872
02:04:08,880 --> 02:04:12,040
Speaker 2: get links to take action on the things you talk about.

1873
02:04:12,080 --> 02:04:12,720
Speaker 2: Can you remind me of that?

1874
02:04:14,920 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just at the like the forward slash calpage

1875
02:04:19,120 --> 02:04:20,360
Speaker 3: at the meat eater dot com.

1876
02:04:21,000 --> 02:04:24,200
Speaker 2: Okay, it's smart. I like that you guys have links

1877
02:04:24,240 --> 02:04:27,080
Speaker 2: to you know, actually send the formal letters or do

1878
02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:29,040
Speaker 2: different stuff on some of the issues you bring up.

1879
02:04:29,640 --> 02:04:31,440
Speaker 2: You do a great job with it. I enjoy it.

1880
02:04:31,560 --> 02:04:33,320
Speaker 2: I know a lot of other folks do too, So

1881
02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:37,040
Speaker 2: thank you for doing that, Kale, and thanks for having

1882
02:04:37,080 --> 02:04:41,200
Speaker 2: this chat. I think we should do more of these, Yeah, man.

1883
02:04:41,120 --> 02:04:45,080
Speaker 3: I agree, it'd be great. You know, we can throw

1884
02:04:45,120 --> 02:04:48,440
Speaker 3: an extra drop on on my feed or I think,

1885
02:04:48,920 --> 02:04:51,200
Speaker 3: you know, trying to engage that YouTube audience would be

1886
02:04:51,320 --> 02:04:56,080
Speaker 3: really good. So folks can write in to ask Cal

1887
02:04:56,200 --> 02:04:57,880
Speaker 3: at the meat eater dot com and let me know

1888
02:04:58,440 --> 02:05:00,840
Speaker 3: what your interest level is and then Mark and I

1889
02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:05,560
Speaker 3: can team up and get something going on the appropriate channel.

1890
02:05:05,640 --> 02:05:11,000
Speaker 3: But plenty more to come, so please be engaged right now.

1891
02:05:11,840 --> 02:05:15,000
Speaker 3: Do the easy stuff Hey, thank you for doing this.

1892
02:05:15,720 --> 02:05:20,400
Speaker 3: I appreciate that. Boy. I wish you would advocate for

1893
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:23,200
Speaker 3: us here because I don't think it's going well these

1894
02:05:23,240 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 3: things are concerning. I'm paying attention because I think we're

1895
02:05:28,400 --> 02:05:31,760
Speaker 3: gonna have some some big fights coming up here, and

1896
02:05:32,080 --> 02:05:34,000
Speaker 3: we need you to be there and ready to rock

1897
02:05:34,080 --> 02:05:37,240
Speaker 3: and roll so we can get back to talking about

1898
02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:38,880
Speaker 3: the super fun hunt and fishing stuff.

1899
02:05:40,240 --> 02:05:48,200
Speaker 2: Agreed, all right, and that is a wrap. Thank you

1900
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:50,440
Speaker 2: so much for being here. I hope you enjoyed my

1901
02:05:50,560 --> 02:05:54,200
Speaker 2: chat with Cale. I appreciate you chewing on these ideas,

1902
02:05:54,800 --> 02:05:58,840
Speaker 2: considering these perspectives, and taking action in support of our

1903
02:05:58,880 --> 02:06:02,360
Speaker 2: public landscapes. Now in twenty twenty five, next year, in

1904
02:06:02,400 --> 02:06:04,920
Speaker 2: twenty six and twenty seven, and twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty,

1905
02:06:05,280 --> 02:06:08,360
Speaker 2: twenty forty, twenty fifty, this stuff's going to keep on

1906
02:06:08,480 --> 02:06:11,640
Speaker 2: coming back up. The specifics will be different, but the

1907
02:06:11,840 --> 02:06:14,960
Speaker 2: basic idea will be the same, and we're gonna have

1908
02:06:15,040 --> 02:06:18,960
Speaker 2: to be here standing in their way every time. I

1909
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:21,840
Speaker 2: know I'm going to be there. I'm excited to see

1910
02:06:21,840 --> 02:06:25,760
Speaker 2: you there too, So until then, thank you and stay

1911
02:06:26,720 --> 02:06:28,120
Speaker 2: wired to hunt