WEBVTT - 14. Persons of Interest 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.240 Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.760 not be suitable for all listeners. There are people out 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.520 there who have information that could help solve this case. 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.480 Persons of interest, including someone who allegedly spoke to Robert 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.319 Fisher after the murders, someone with whom he was having 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.840 an ongoing affair, and the camper who located Mary Fisher's 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:24.000 SUV and then himself disappeared. Some have key details but 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.880 are likely not involved in any other way. Some may 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.680 have helped Robert before the murders, some may have helped 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.800 him after. At the least they can help us understand 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.480 what happened. At the most they can help us find 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.720 him today. Just proving he lived past April two thousand 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.200 and one and did not die in the wilderness would 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.040 be a huge break in the case. In this episode, 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.159 I'm going to examine these people. Who are they, what 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:55.960 do they know? What did they do? From iHeartRadio and 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.560 Neon thirty three, I'm John Walzac and this is Missing 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.000 an air the story of a man who disappeared after 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.520 allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.280 and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later. I'm 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.880 hunting Robert Fisher and I need your help. 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:18.520 Sean. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.520 April thirteenth, two thousand and one, three days after the 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.759 Fisher house explodes, nine to fifteen PM, a phone rings 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.160 at the Scottsdale Police Department. An informant shares the name 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.440 of a man, Sean, who allegedly knows where Robert Fisher 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.000 is hiding in the mountains. Detectives are intrigued. This is 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.160 the second time in only seventy two hours that Shawn's 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.039 name has come up. A US Marshall heard from a 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.000 different informant that Sean was speaking to Fisher after the 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.720 murders by phone. So now two sources have said that 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.520 Shawn either knows where Fisher is or that he's currently 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.400 in contact with him. Police interviews Sean. He confirms that 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.400 he and Robert are friends. They met at Paradise Springs 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.520 Community Each church seven or eight years ago. They also 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.720 shared two close mutual friends, Ken Hodgson and Sandy Gillespie. 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.959 In recent years, Robert acted erratically, Sean says, on hunting 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:15.880 trips he would randomly shoot guns at inappropriate times. He 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.120 was also likely having affairs, but Sean doesn't know with 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.600 whom the area's Robert knows best. He says, our unit 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.520 twenty three near Young and five B south north of Payson. 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.720 Detectives ask if he's talking to Robert by phone. Absolutely not, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.680 He says. The murders are a tragedy. If Robert contacts him, 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.560 he'll call the police immediately. In twenty twenty three, I 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.320 speak to Sean by phone after Robert disappeared. After the murders, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.919 the police got hundreds, if not thousands of tips. One 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.360 of the tips that they got was from an infour 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.919 minute who alleges that you were speaking to Robert after 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.400 he disappeared, trying to get him to turn himself in, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.280 and that he was in the mountains near Winslow. Can 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.399 you address that? Was that accurate at all? 0:02:59.639 --> 0:02:59.720 No? 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.040 No, no, I never spoke to Robert after that. I 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:05.760 mean I would have made a cistans arrest, you know, 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.240 and turn him in. That kind of behavior is unacceptable 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:09.919 if he deserves. 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.120 To pay for his crimes. I mean I really liked 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:13.160 his son. He was cool. 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.480 If Robert were to have reached out to anybody in 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.839 terms of a friend, who do you think he would 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:19.520 have reached out to? 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.880 Well, he had a pretty close relationship with pastor Ken 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.000 Hodginson from Paradise Springs Church. I think Ken had some 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.920 insight into his personality that went beyond anybody else that 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:31.359 were just acquaintances with him. 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.560 I think Robert probably talked to him because that's what 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:34.320 Ken does. 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.160 That's his speciality is helping people with their demons. He's 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.400 as much of a therapist counselor as he is a minister. 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.800 Shawn never expected to hear from Robert after the murders because. 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:47.720 He knew my personality. I'm not going to go along 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.680 with that. I mean, that's heinous, that's evil man. I 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.040 was pissed for a long time out of smoke. 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:53.480 Check him. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.160 Who would have come down to that, either made an 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.680 assisting resident. He didn't go quietly. I'd had to shoot him. 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.560 I was perfectly prepared to take steps. That's just some 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.640 evil shit. So no, yeah, that's totally false. I'd be 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:05.840 curious to find out who the informal was it said 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:07.880 that Ken Hodgson. 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.440 Everyone tells me that if anyone knows Robert's secrets, it's 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.000 Ken Hodgson. Ken and Robert grew up together in Tucson. 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.680 Ken later became a pastor Robert attended his church in 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.080 the lead up to the murders, Robert told Ken that 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.680 Mary wanted a divorce. Ken later speculated to the FBI 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.040 that Robert was gay. Even if he has inside information, 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.080 though he's in a tough spot as a pastor, he's 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.680 obligated to keep secrets, not share them except in extreme circumstances. 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.160 After the murders, Ken feared for his safety. He no 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.240 longer lives in Arizona. I try to reach him. He 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:47.960 never responds Dale Hodgson, Ken's brother and Robert's former hunting buddy. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.680 If Robert confided in Ken and Ken confided in anyone else, 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.800 it's likely Dale. Dale is also a key witness about 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.680 another person of interest, the Hermit. I'll get to him 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.680 in a minute, but first, when I contact Dale, this 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:02.560 is what he tells me via email. 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.159 John, I do not know anything about Robert's personal life. 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.560 I went hunting with him a couple of times, and 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.560 that's it. I would love to see Robert brought to justice. 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.279 I do not know about the hermit, or about anyone 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.360 in his personal life, male or female. 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.680 Good luck Dale the Hermit. 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.960 Though Dale now says he doesn't know anything about the hermit. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.200 That's not what he told police in two thousand and one. 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.640 In December two thousand, four months before the murders, he 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.400 said he and Robert went on an elk hunting trip 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.320 about twenty miles north of Payson. Dale's son accompanied them. 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.080 They stayed at the Happy Jack RV Park near the 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.640 town of Clint's Well, arriving the night of Thursday, December seventh, 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.080 and leaving the morning of Sunday, December tenth. Robert stuck 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.000 around a bit longer by himself. Much of the trip. 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.320 Dale and his son went one way, Robert another. One day, 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:55.119 while riding his ATV, Robert stumbled upon another man also 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.240 on an ATV. The hermit, an older guy who lived 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:01.120 in the area year round in a small trailer. Dale 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.279 only met him twice for about ten minutes. He described 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:07.200 him as a white male about seventy years old, five 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.520 to nine, one hundred and eighty pounds, with whiskers, wearing 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.839 insulated overalls and a black beanie cap. The hermit was 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:17.640 from Mesa. He had a white collar career, possibly at Motorola. 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.160 Then he had heart problems, quit his job, got a divorce, 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.840 gave up on society, and retreated into the woods sometime 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.880 around nineteen ninety three or ninety four. He started with 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.440 a barebones trailer. Over time, he added solar power, a 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.200 fridge that ran on propane, and possibly a TV, though 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.640 he didn't watch it. He spent his days collecting firewood 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.240 and only went into town once a month for medication. 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.640 Robert loved all of this, the solitude, the languid days outside, 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:51.640 a crisp pine scented pulsating breeze, and escape from society. 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.360 The two men spent a lot of time together. Dale 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.159 says alone after the trip, Robert told at least two 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.200 other people about the hermit, Van Hodgson and a co 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.960 worker who doesn't want to be named. Robert told the 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.240 co worker that the hermit lived at a campsite in 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.320 a shack like shed, which differs from Dale's description of 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.520 a trailer. He said that while writing his ATV, he 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.480 came across the hermit walking in the woods, which differs 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.720 from Dale's account that both men were writing ATVs. The 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.760 hermit gave Robert directions to his home. The next day, 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.000 Robert visited him for five to six hours. The hermit 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.080 had a dog, but was lonely. Robert said he also 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.880 had a good supply of fuel and food, including wild turkeys, 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.000 which he penned up in his yard. The hermit came 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.120 into town only once a year for supplies, Robert told 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.960 his coworker, which differs from Dale's account that he came 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.840 into town once a month. He was a business person 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.640 or maybe a lawyer. He got tired of his job 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.000 and society and one day left it all behind. He 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.400 cut off communication with the outside world. Robert said the 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.520 hermit was in his forties, which differs from Dale's account 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.440 that the hermit was in his seventies. Robert showed his 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:03.120 coworker photos from the trip. Police never located them. They 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.920 presumably burned in the Fisher House fire. Ken Hodgson told 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.760 police that Robert and Dale both referred to the hermit 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.600 as quote the guy with the cornpipe. Police asked Ken, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.640 Dale and the co worker if Robert expressed any hermit 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.840 fantasies of his own. No, they said, in part because 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.880 of his back pain. He might idealize that rugged kind 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.680 of life, as millions do, but he wasn't cut out 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.720 to live it. The details here come from interviews police 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.640 conducted a week after the murders. They spoke to the 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.920 coworker on April seventeenth, two thousand and one, and to 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:38.360 Ken and Dale Hodgson the next day, April eighteenth. So 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.280 I'm comparing contemporaneous accounts of the hermit, not fresh memories 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.319 from two thousand and one to stale ones today, which 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.280 otherwise could explain some of the minor discrepancies. The hermit 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.560 is important for two key reasons. First, he inspired Robert, 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:55.720 if not to live in the woods, then at least 0:08:55.720 --> 0:09:00.200 to dramatically alter his life. Their encounter was serendipitous. It 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.760 came right before Robert fell sick with an apparent STI, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.640 days before his life started to pancake and rapidly collapse. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:12.520 Incredible timing. Second, and this is critical, Dale Hodgson told 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.960 police that he thought Robert might be with the hermit, 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:17.760 that he could have fled there after the murders, which 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.480 makes sense. Robert meets a hermit in the woods four 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.320 months before he kills his family. The hermit is cut 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.600 off from society, he's not following the news. He has 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.200 a stockpile of food and fuel. It's an ideal off 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.520 the grid refuge. The hermit could have helped Robert without 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.480 knowing what he did. Robert could have lied, for example, 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.640 saying his wife kicked him out and he needed a 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.160 place to stay. The hermit was lonely, he likely would 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.360 have obliged. He would have welcomed company from a kindred spirit. 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.280 Police attempted to locate him in two thousand and one. 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.319 They apparently failed. Dale Hodgson and his son left the 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:56.120 hunting trip early on Sunday, December tenth, two thousand. Robert 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.800 stayed behind. Another friend, Steve Peach, arrived the night of 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.880 time whose day December twelfth, meaning Robert had two and 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.480 a half days at Happy Jack alone, two and a 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.920 half days he could have spent with the hermit who 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.840 when Steve arrived, Robert failed to mention, which seems strange right, 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.640 almost like he decided to minimize who knew about him. Now, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:17.800 let me circle back to a lead I discussed in 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.320 episode five. After the murders, a tow truck driver claimed 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.120 he pulled Robert out of a ditch near Blue Ridge Reservoir. 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.880 While I'm skeptical of this claim, I do want to 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.400 point out that the hermit lived only five miles from 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:33.400 the reservoir. In twenty twenty three, I interview Robert's coworker, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.120 the one he told about the hermit. 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.000 Yes, the hermit story is true. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.920 The hermit and his lifestyle fascinated Robert. 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:41.920 And there were only like two or three of us 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.880 who knew of this. A very small piece, very limited 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:45.920 number of people knew. 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:50.120 That Robert admired the hermit's home for its minimalist efficiency and. 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.080 Because it was kind of out in the middle of nowhere, 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.520 so it wasn't like you went to loot some scraps 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.760 at home deep over or you found some on the 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:57.480 side of the road. 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.280 So it was just kind of stuff that he yelp 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.440 from your forest and stuff like that. And I know 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:05.640 he mentioned. 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.360 It was almost like you didn't see it, so they 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.160 actually saw the person before he said, we actually saw 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:15.079 where he was living. 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.959 Summer twenty twenty three, our producer Chris and I decide 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.840 to search for the hermit. We leave Phoenix Drive to 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:22.480 Happy Jack. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:23.439 It's thro on this like. 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.640 Windy rocky forest for a very rocky forest road, like 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:34.360 through the forests. We've got a polar pop from Circle 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:39.200 K and you can hear it jiggling around. I don't 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:40.960 know how good the mic is. I hope it picks 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:46.120 up the jiggling ice. Nobody else is on this road. 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:50.679 It's very bumpy. There's a looks like it's spelled to rain. 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.040 It's pretty cloudy, and it's seventy three degrees. It's actually 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.600 really nice. We criss cross side roads, including one with 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.840 a sizeable no trespassing sign. Should just go down it. 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:02.760 Let's go down. Let's go down a little bit and 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:03.319 then turn around. 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:04.280 Go what are they going to do? 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:05.240 Arrest us? Come on? 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.760 Some people just come out yelling at us as a shotgun 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:14.400 or something. That's better than being arrested. We're just lost, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.200 just some lost to us. Looking for hermit. We find 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.840 some shacks that could belong to the hermit. There's no 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.320 way to know for sure, but one thing we can 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:27.520 say by now, he's likely dead and regardless, this area 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.160 has changed a lot since two thousand and one. It's 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:35.040 much more developed. So moving on to Brad. Brad started 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.680 a new job at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.600 in December two thousand. He met Robert at orientation on Thursday, 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:45.080 December seventh. The same day Robert left after work on 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.360 the elk hunting trip Robert and Brad quickly bonded over 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.920 their love of guns and nature, as well as their 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.720 past military experience. In February two thousand and one, two 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.480 months before the murders, Brad gave Robert a bunch of 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.400 MREs Field rations three to five five cases. Each was 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.240 ten to twelve meals, enough to last at least two 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.679 to three weeks. Police never found them. They could have burned, 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.680 or Robert could have hidden them somewhere. Brad was the 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.199 last coworker to see Robert. They exited the hospital together 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:18.640 around four pm on April ninth, shortly before the murders. Initially, 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.960 police were suspicious of Brad, but later they determined it 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.960 unlikely that he helped Robert in any way other than 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.679 innocently gifting him some MREs. I agree with that assessment. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:31.920 German shepherd man, this. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.240 One is confounding. I don't know what to make of it. 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:36.960 The night of April ninth, two thousand and one, a 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.440 teacher named Marge Lopez witnessed something odd at Supi Middle 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.240 School outside the National Junior Honor Society event. She saw 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.160 a man tying up a blonde colored German shepherd. She 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.000 didn't pay him much attention. When he walked in, he 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.520 sat down next to her. It was Robert Fisher. Lopez 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.920 asked about the shepherd, speaking in a harsh, monotone voice. 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.480 Robert quote indicated very sternly that it was not him 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.720 that was outside with the dog. According to a police report, 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.480 Lopez said the man with the shepherd were the same 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.160 black ball cap as Fisher. She was confident it was Fisher. 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.880 There are only two options here. Either Lopez was mistaken 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.040 or it was Fisher, in which case, what was he 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.320 doing with the blonde German shepherd? And whose shepherd was it? 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.720 If you're thinking maybe she saw Robert tying up his 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.080 dog Blue, I doubt it. Blue was a different breed, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.960 an Australian cattle dog, not a German shepherd. He was black, 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.800 white and gray, not blonde. And anyway, why would Robert 0:14:34.800 --> 0:15:19.120 deny that he was the guy outside. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:03.800 The Paulden Survivalists. 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.160 We reported this one in episode nine. On April first, 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.640 two thousand and one, while returning to Scottsdale from a 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.720 wedding in Sedona, Robert unexpectedly stopped at a survivalist compound 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.480 in Paulden. He made Mary Wade in the car She 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.080 had no idea what he was doing. He disappeared for 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:23.320 an hour, then came back. This is obviously mysterious. Who 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.040 were these people? Why did Robert meet with them nine 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.240 days before the murders? Did they in any way help him? 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.480 I don't know, but I found something of note. According 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.520 to Phoenix Magazine, that area was at the time a 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.240 hot spot for outlaw biker gangs, including the Skull Valley 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.600 chapter of the Hell's Angels, based in Chino Valley, only 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:43.640 ten minutes south. 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.040 Of Paulden Brian Ballard. 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.920 On June twenty seventh, two thousand and one, four Scott 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.440 Steel detectives followed up on a lead from a local 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.320 inmate that Robert Fischer stayed with a man named Brian 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:58.240 Ballard after the murders. A woman nicknamed Ninja, whose real 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.600 name is redacted in a police report, allegedly helped. From 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.960 the report quote, it was reported that had brought Fisher 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.920 to after the murders, Detectives interviewed at least eight people, 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:14.160 including Stacy Metcalf, an inmate in Phoenix, Donovan Solstak, s 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:19.640 l z Stak, also an inmate in Phoenix, Sally Metcalf, 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.200 Jessica Baker and two neighbors who lived across the street 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.320 from possibly a safe house where Robert Fisher stayed after 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.640 the murders. The neighbors didn't have any information on Fisher, 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.040 but there was a lot of traffic into and out 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.800 of the house. They said they suspected it was used 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.960 to deal drugs. That's all I got from a records request. 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.200 I was unable to reach anyone named in the report. However, 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:47.200 I did identify Brian Ballard as Brian Douglas Ballard nickname Purebread, 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:53.800 ilias Mark Laylor, La Lar occupation drywall contractor. Date of 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.760 birth July twenty seventh, nineteen sixty one, so he was 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.840 the same age as Robert Fisher. Height six ' one 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:05.800 wait one hundred and seventy five pounds, hair, blonde, eyes hazel, 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.760 so in some ways he physically resembled Fisher too. He 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:16.000 has an extensive criminal record, including charges for drug possession, larceny, forgery, trafficking, 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:21.840 stolen property, assault, weapons related defenses, disorderly conduct, shoplifting, and 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.280 driving while impaired. On July twenty first, two thousand and one, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.640 three months after the Fisher murders, a Phoenix police officer 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.399 pulled him over and issued him three citations. Five days later, 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.440 Phoenix police raided the home he shared with his girlfriend, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:40.000 Colinda Lee Davis eighty twenty four North twenty ninth Avenue, which, 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.920 if you're curious, is twenty miles from the Fisher House. 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.720 They found meth syringes, drug pipes, counterfeit bills, and pieces 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.840 of counterfeit checks. Ballard said he was working as an 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.200 informant for the Glendale Police Department. He claimed he would 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.240 obtain counterfeit bills from a guy named Tuma, then turn 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.880 them over to the cops at his house. During the raid, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.000 or at least four other people Skyler Lee Writtenauer, Sandra 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:09.959 Luis Radell, Michael Thomas Beck, and Augustine Vdalas Velasquez or Vasquez. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.600 The spelling is inconsistent in a police report. The report 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:18.760 also names Michael William Lampy Lampe, Carl a Pert, and 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.080 Lester Whitezel, though it's unclear how they're tied to the case. 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.119 On August fifth, two thousand and one, ten days after 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.000 the raid, Ballard was pulled over again while out on 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.520 bail by the same cop who stopped him on July 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:33.720 twenty first, in his front pocket, the cop found seven 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.200 hundred and eighty milligrams of meth. Ballard claimed the pants 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:41.200 were not actually his, but he quickly gave up that ruse. Yes, 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.960 he said, they're my pants. Yes, it's my meth. The 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.040 officer also found a jiggle key used to pick locks 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.119 on his floorboard, as well as keys to other vehicles, 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.600 all of which Ballard claimed were his. It's unclear if 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.040 Phoenix police were aware that Ballard was a person of 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:00.119 interest in the Fisher case. They raided his house a 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.800 month after. Scottsdale Police investigated whether or not he sheltered 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.720 Robert after the murders. Robert wasn't known to use illegal drugs, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.359 but he was seemingly addicted to opioids. He had a prescription, 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.880 but it's possible he also obtained them illegally, which could 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.760 explain a connection to someone living in a house used 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.480 to sell drugs. When arrested in two thousand and one, 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.000 Ballard was described as an unemployed addict. If anyone from 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.240 the criminal underworld helped Robert after the murders, it likely 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.520 would have been in exchange for money. They may not 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.840 have even been aware of what he did. If I 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.880 were law enforcement Here's what I do. Now, Double check 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.679 this lead. Interview Ballard and everyone else tied to his case. 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.360 Compare his fingerprints which are on file to Prince recovered 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.320 from Mary's forerunner. If the keys found in his vehicle 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.760 in two thousand and one are in storage, see if 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.000 any fit the fore runner. Examine other evidence recovered from 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.000 his house. Check his medical records, see if he was 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.760 ever treated at one of Robert's hospitals. Finally, if Ballard 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.920 had ties to someone who produced counterfeit ca and checks, 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.560 he could have easily had ties to someone who produced 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.680 falsified identity documents which Robert could have used to escape. 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.280 So I'd review document forgery cases in the Phoenix metro 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.920 from say, nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and four, 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.520 Track down the forgers and interview them. Also, let me 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.360 say this, if you were involved in a legal activity 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.080 in two thousand and one and helped Robert Fisher escape 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.720 or know who did, you could still be eligible for 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.280 reward money. The cops don't care about you. They don't 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.359 care about drugs or fake bills from twenty three years ago. 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:34.680 They want to catch a guy who killed his wife 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.640 and children. Please come forward or at least submit information 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.040 anonymously to law enforcement or US. We'll tell you how 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:43.080 to reach us at the end of. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.120 This episode the Unit ten Rancher. 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.800 Some people theorize that after the murders, Robert fled to 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.359 a remote ranch somewhere in Arizona, disconnected from society. Maybe 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.440 he's living there today. They say, I find it hard 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.280 to believe that he's still on some isolated property in 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.600 state twenty three years later, but it's certainly possible that 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.600 he used one as a layover while escaping. That exact 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.480 scenario played out in a high profile way in nineteen 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:13.400 ninety seven, when the FBI found Chevy Keyhoe, a white supremacist, 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.359 hiding under a fake name, on a Utah ranch one 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.640 hundred miles northwest of the Grand Canyon. Keyho helped kill 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.320 a family in Arkansas, including an eight year old girl, 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.480 and has suspected ties to the Oklahoma City bombing. Meanwhile, 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.400 one of Robert's friends told police that before he killed 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.160 his family, Robert befriended quote a rancher up in Unit ten. 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:37.200 Unit ten is a hunting area sandwiched between Williams, Arizona, 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.800 and the Grand Canyon. Another friend said that Robert quote 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.080 had a ranch near the Grand Canyon, presumably not that 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.760 he owned one, but that he frequented one in the area. 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.080 The unit ten rancher has never been identified. There's one 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.200 more Rance related lead. I purposely left it out of 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.320 episode five. Tell me about the Cherry Creek story lead. 0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.479 Yeah, this one is bizarre. 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.720