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Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may

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Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. There are people out

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Speaker 1: there who have information that could help solve this case.

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Speaker 1: Persons of interest, including someone who allegedly spoke to Robert

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Speaker 1: Fisher after the murders, someone with whom he was having

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Speaker 1: an ongoing affair, and the camper who located Mary Fisher's

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Speaker 1: SUV and then himself disappeared. Some have key details but

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Speaker 1: are likely not involved in any other way. Some may

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Speaker 1: have helped Robert before the murders, some may have helped

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Speaker 1: him after. At the least they can help us understand

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Speaker 1: what happened. At the most they can help us find

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Speaker 1: him today. Just proving he lived past April two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one and did not die in the wilderness would

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Speaker 1: be a huge break in the case. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to examine these people. Who are they, what

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Speaker 1: do they know? What did they do? From iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Neon thirty three, I'm John Walzac and this is Missing

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Speaker 1: an air the story of a man who disappeared after

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Speaker 1: allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home,

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Speaker 1: and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later. I'm

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Speaker 1: hunting Robert Fisher and I need your help.

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Speaker 2: Sean.

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Speaker 1: April thirteenth, two thousand and one, three days after the

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Speaker 1: Fisher house explodes, nine to fifteen PM, a phone rings

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Speaker 1: at the Scottsdale Police Department. An informant shares the name

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Speaker 1: of a man, Sean, who allegedly knows where Robert Fisher

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Speaker 1: is hiding in the mountains. Detectives are intrigued. This is

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Speaker 1: the second time in only seventy two hours that Shawn's

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Speaker 1: name has come up. A US Marshall heard from a

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Speaker 1: different informant that Sean was speaking to Fisher after the

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Speaker 1: murders by phone. So now two sources have said that

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Speaker 1: Shawn either knows where Fisher is or that he's currently

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Speaker 1: in contact with him. Police interviews Sean. He confirms that

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Speaker 1: he and Robert are friends. They met at Paradise Springs

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Speaker 1: Community Each church seven or eight years ago. They also

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Speaker 1: shared two close mutual friends, Ken Hodgson and Sandy Gillespie.

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Speaker 1: In recent years, Robert acted erratically, Sean says, on hunting

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Speaker 1: trips he would randomly shoot guns at inappropriate times. He

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Speaker 1: was also likely having affairs, but Sean doesn't know with

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Speaker 1: whom the area's Robert knows best. He says, our unit

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Speaker 1: twenty three near Young and five B south north of Payson.

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Speaker 1: Detectives ask if he's talking to Robert by phone. Absolutely not,

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Speaker 1: He says. The murders are a tragedy. If Robert contacts him,

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Speaker 1: he'll call the police immediately. In twenty twenty three, I

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Speaker 1: speak to Sean by phone after Robert disappeared. After the murders,

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Speaker 1: the police got hundreds, if not thousands of tips. One

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Speaker 1: of the tips that they got was from an infour

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Speaker 1: minute who alleges that you were speaking to Robert after

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Speaker 1: he disappeared, trying to get him to turn himself in,

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Speaker 1: and that he was in the mountains near Winslow. Can

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Speaker 1: you address that? Was that accurate at all?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: No, no, I never spoke to Robert after that. I

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Speaker 4: mean I would have made a cistans arrest, you know,

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Speaker 4: and turn him in. That kind of behavior is unacceptable

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Speaker 4: if he deserves.

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Speaker 2: To pay for his crimes. I mean I really liked

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Speaker 2: his son. He was cool.

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Speaker 1: If Robert were to have reached out to anybody in

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Speaker 1: terms of a friend, who do you think he would

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Speaker 1: have reached out to?

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Speaker 4: Well, he had a pretty close relationship with pastor Ken

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Speaker 4: Hodginson from Paradise Springs Church. I think Ken had some

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Speaker 4: insight into his personality that went beyond anybody else that

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Speaker 4: were just acquaintances with him.

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Speaker 2: I think Robert probably talked to him because that's what

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Speaker 2: Ken does.

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Speaker 4: That's his speciality is helping people with their demons. He's

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Speaker 4: as much of a therapist counselor as he is a minister.

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Speaker 1: Shawn never expected to hear from Robert after the murders because.

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Speaker 4: He knew my personality. I'm not going to go along

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Speaker 4: with that. I mean, that's heinous, that's evil man. I

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Speaker 4: was pissed for a long time out of smoke.

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Speaker 2: Check him.

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Speaker 4: Who would have come down to that, either made an

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Speaker 4: assisting resident. He didn't go quietly. I'd had to shoot him.

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Speaker 4: I was perfectly prepared to take steps. That's just some

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Speaker 4: evil shit. So no, yeah, that's totally false. I'd be

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Speaker 4: curious to find out who the informal was it said

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Speaker 4: that Ken Hodgson.

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Speaker 1: Everyone tells me that if anyone knows Robert's secrets, it's

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Speaker 1: Ken Hodgson. Ken and Robert grew up together in Tucson.

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Speaker 1: Ken later became a pastor Robert attended his church in

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Speaker 1: the lead up to the murders, Robert told Ken that

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Speaker 1: Mary wanted a divorce. Ken later speculated to the FBI

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Speaker 1: that Robert was gay. Even if he has inside information,

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Speaker 1: though he's in a tough spot as a pastor, he's

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Speaker 1: obligated to keep secrets, not share them except in extreme circumstances.

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Speaker 1: After the murders, Ken feared for his safety. He no

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Speaker 1: longer lives in Arizona. I try to reach him. He

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Speaker 1: never responds Dale Hodgson, Ken's brother and Robert's former hunting buddy.

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Speaker 1: If Robert confided in Ken and Ken confided in anyone else,

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Speaker 1: it's likely Dale. Dale is also a key witness about

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Speaker 1: another person of interest, the Hermit. I'll get to him

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Speaker 1: in a minute, but first, when I contact Dale, this

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Speaker 1: is what he tells me via email.

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Speaker 5: John, I do not know anything about Robert's personal life.

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Speaker 5: I went hunting with him a couple of times, and

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Speaker 5: that's it. I would love to see Robert brought to justice.

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Speaker 5: I do not know about the hermit, or about anyone

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Speaker 5: in his personal life, male or female.

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Speaker 2: Good luck Dale the Hermit.

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Speaker 1: Though Dale now says he doesn't know anything about the hermit.

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Speaker 1: That's not what he told police in two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: In December two thousand, four months before the murders, he

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Speaker 1: said he and Robert went on an elk hunting trip

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Speaker 1: about twenty miles north of Payson. Dale's son accompanied them.

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Speaker 1: They stayed at the Happy Jack RV Park near the

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Speaker 1: town of Clint's Well, arriving the night of Thursday, December seventh,

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Speaker 1: and leaving the morning of Sunday, December tenth. Robert stuck

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Speaker 1: around a bit longer by himself. Much of the trip.

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Speaker 1: Dale and his son went one way, Robert another. One day,

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Speaker 1: while riding his ATV, Robert stumbled upon another man also

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Speaker 1: on an ATV. The hermit, an older guy who lived

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Speaker 1: in the area year round in a small trailer. Dale

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Speaker 1: only met him twice for about ten minutes. He described

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Speaker 1: him as a white male about seventy years old, five

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Speaker 1: to nine, one hundred and eighty pounds, with whiskers, wearing

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Speaker 1: insulated overalls and a black beanie cap. The hermit was

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Speaker 1: from Mesa. He had a white collar career, possibly at Motorola.

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Speaker 1: Then he had heart problems, quit his job, got a divorce,

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Speaker 1: gave up on society, and retreated into the woods sometime

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Speaker 1: around nineteen ninety three or ninety four. He started with

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Speaker 1: a barebones trailer. Over time, he added solar power, a

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Speaker 1: fridge that ran on propane, and possibly a TV, though

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Speaker 1: he didn't watch it. He spent his days collecting firewood

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Speaker 1: and only went into town once a month for medication.

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Speaker 1: Robert loved all of this, the solitude, the languid days outside,

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Speaker 1: a crisp pine scented pulsating breeze, and escape from society.

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Speaker 1: The two men spent a lot of time together. Dale

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Speaker 1: says alone after the trip, Robert told at least two

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Speaker 1: other people about the hermit, Van Hodgson and a co

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Speaker 1: worker who doesn't want to be named. Robert told the

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Speaker 1: co worker that the hermit lived at a campsite in

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Speaker 1: a shack like shed, which differs from Dale's description of

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Speaker 1: a trailer. He said that while writing his ATV, he

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Speaker 1: came across the hermit walking in the woods, which differs

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Speaker 1: from Dale's account that both men were writing ATVs. The

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Speaker 1: hermit gave Robert directions to his home. The next day,

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Speaker 1: Robert visited him for five to six hours. The hermit

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Speaker 1: had a dog, but was lonely. Robert said he also

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Speaker 1: had a good supply of fuel and food, including wild turkeys,

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Speaker 1: which he penned up in his yard. The hermit came

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Speaker 1: into town only once a year for supplies, Robert told

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Speaker 1: his coworker, which differs from Dale's account that he came

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Speaker 1: into town once a month. He was a business person

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Speaker 1: or maybe a lawyer. He got tired of his job

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Speaker 1: and society and one day left it all behind. He

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Speaker 1: cut off communication with the outside world. Robert said the

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Speaker 1: hermit was in his forties, which differs from Dale's account

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Speaker 1: that the hermit was in his seventies. Robert showed his

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Speaker 1: coworker photos from the trip. Police never located them. They

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Speaker 1: presumably burned in the Fisher House fire. Ken Hodgson told

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Speaker 1: police that Robert and Dale both referred to the hermit

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Speaker 1: as quote the guy with the cornpipe. Police asked Ken,

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Speaker 1: Dale and the co worker if Robert expressed any hermit

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Speaker 1: fantasies of his own. No, they said, in part because

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Speaker 1: of his back pain. He might idealize that rugged kind

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Speaker 1: of life, as millions do, but he wasn't cut out

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Speaker 1: to live it. The details here come from interviews police

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Speaker 1: conducted a week after the murders. They spoke to the

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Speaker 1: coworker on April seventeenth, two thousand and one, and to

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Speaker 1: Ken and Dale Hodgson the next day, April eighteenth. So

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Speaker 1: I'm comparing contemporaneous accounts of the hermit, not fresh memories

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Speaker 1: from two thousand and one to stale ones today, which

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Speaker 1: otherwise could explain some of the minor discrepancies. The hermit

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Speaker 1: is important for two key reasons. First, he inspired Robert,

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Speaker 1: if not to live in the woods, then at least

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Speaker 1: to dramatically alter his life. Their encounter was serendipitous. It

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Speaker 1: came right before Robert fell sick with an apparent STI,

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Speaker 1: days before his life started to pancake and rapidly collapse.

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Speaker 1: Incredible timing. Second, and this is critical, Dale Hodgson told

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Speaker 1: police that he thought Robert might be with the hermit,

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Speaker 1: that he could have fled there after the murders, which

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Robert meets a hermit in the woods four

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Speaker 1: months before he kills his family. The hermit is cut

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Speaker 1: off from society, he's not following the news. He has

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Speaker 1: a stockpile of food and fuel. It's an ideal off

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Speaker 1: the grid refuge. The hermit could have helped Robert without

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Speaker 1: knowing what he did. Robert could have lied, for example,

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Speaker 1: saying his wife kicked him out and he needed a

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Speaker 1: place to stay. The hermit was lonely, he likely would

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Speaker 1: have obliged. He would have welcomed company from a kindred spirit.

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Speaker 1: Police attempted to locate him in two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: They apparently failed. Dale Hodgson and his son left the

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Speaker 1: hunting trip early on Sunday, December tenth, two thousand. Robert

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Speaker 1: stayed behind. Another friend, Steve Peach, arrived the night of

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Speaker 1: time whose day December twelfth, meaning Robert had two and

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Speaker 1: a half days at Happy Jack alone, two and a

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Speaker 1: half days he could have spent with the hermit who

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Speaker 1: when Steve arrived, Robert failed to mention, which seems strange right,

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Speaker 1: almost like he decided to minimize who knew about him. Now,

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Speaker 1: let me circle back to a lead I discussed in

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Speaker 1: episode five. After the murders, a tow truck driver claimed

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Speaker 1: he pulled Robert out of a ditch near Blue Ridge Reservoir.

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Speaker 1: While I'm skeptical of this claim, I do want to

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Speaker 1: point out that the hermit lived only five miles from

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Speaker 1: the reservoir. In twenty twenty three, I interview Robert's coworker,

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Speaker 1: the one he told about the hermit.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the hermit story is true.

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Speaker 1: The hermit and his lifestyle fascinated Robert.

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Speaker 6: And there were only like two or three of us

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Speaker 6: who knew of this. A very small piece, very limited

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Speaker 6: number of people knew.

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Speaker 1: That Robert admired the hermit's home for its minimalist efficiency and.

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Speaker 6: Because it was kind of out in the middle of nowhere,

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Speaker 6: so it wasn't like you went to loot some scraps

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Speaker 6: at home deep over or you found some on the

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Speaker 6: side of the road.

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Speaker 2: So it was just kind of stuff that he yelp

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Speaker 2: from your forest and stuff like that. And I know

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Speaker 2: he mentioned.

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Speaker 6: It was almost like you didn't see it, so they

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Speaker 6: actually saw the person before he said, we actually saw

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Speaker 6: where he was living.

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Speaker 1: Summer twenty twenty three, our producer Chris and I decide

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Speaker 1: to search for the hermit. We leave Phoenix Drive to

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Speaker 1: Happy Jack.

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Speaker 7: It's thro on this like.

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Speaker 1: Windy rocky forest for a very rocky forest road, like

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Speaker 1: through the forests. We've got a polar pop from Circle

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Speaker 1: K and you can hear it jiggling around. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how good the mic is. I hope it picks

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Speaker 1: up the jiggling ice. Nobody else is on this road.

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Speaker 1: It's very bumpy. There's a looks like it's spelled to rain.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty cloudy, and it's seventy three degrees. It's actually

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Speaker 1: really nice. We criss cross side roads, including one with

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Speaker 1: a sizeable no trespassing sign. Should just go down it.

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Speaker 1: Let's go down. Let's go down a little bit and

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Speaker 1: then turn around.

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Speaker 7: Go what are they going to do?

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Speaker 2: Arrest us? Come on?

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Speaker 1: Some people just come out yelling at us as a shotgun

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Speaker 1: or something. That's better than being arrested. We're just lost,

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Speaker 1: just some lost to us. Looking for hermit. We find

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Speaker 1: some shacks that could belong to the hermit. There's no

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Speaker 1: way to know for sure, but one thing we can

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Speaker 1: say by now, he's likely dead and regardless, this area

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Speaker 1: has changed a lot since two thousand and one. It's

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Speaker 1: much more developed. So moving on to Brad. Brad started

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Speaker 1: a new job at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix

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Speaker 1: in December two thousand. He met Robert at orientation on Thursday,

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Speaker 1: December seventh. The same day Robert left after work on

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Speaker 1: the elk hunting trip Robert and Brad quickly bonded over

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Speaker 1: their love of guns and nature, as well as their

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Speaker 1: past military experience. In February two thousand and one, two

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Speaker 1: months before the murders, Brad gave Robert a bunch of

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Speaker 1: MREs Field rations three to five five cases. Each was

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Speaker 1: ten to twelve meals, enough to last at least two

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Speaker 1: to three weeks. Police never found them. They could have burned,

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Speaker 1: or Robert could have hidden them somewhere. Brad was the

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Speaker 1: last coworker to see Robert. They exited the hospital together

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Speaker 1: around four pm on April ninth, shortly before the murders. Initially,

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Speaker 1: police were suspicious of Brad, but later they determined it

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Speaker 1: unlikely that he helped Robert in any way other than

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Speaker 1: innocently gifting him some MREs. I agree with that assessment.

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Speaker 2: German shepherd man, this.

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Speaker 1: One is confounding. I don't know what to make of it.

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Speaker 1: The night of April ninth, two thousand and one, a

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Speaker 1: teacher named Marge Lopez witnessed something odd at Supi Middle

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Speaker 1: School outside the National Junior Honor Society event. She saw

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Speaker 1: a man tying up a blonde colored German shepherd. She

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Speaker 1: didn't pay him much attention. When he walked in, he

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Speaker 1: sat down next to her. It was Robert Fisher. Lopez

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Speaker 1: asked about the shepherd, speaking in a harsh, monotone voice.

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Speaker 1: Robert quote indicated very sternly that it was not him

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Speaker 1: that was outside with the dog. According to a police report,

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Speaker 1: Lopez said the man with the shepherd were the same

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Speaker 1: black ball cap as Fisher. She was confident it was Fisher.

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Speaker 1: There are only two options here. Either Lopez was mistaken

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Speaker 1: or it was Fisher, in which case, what was he

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Speaker 1: doing with the blonde German shepherd? And whose shepherd was it?

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Speaker 1: If you're thinking maybe she saw Robert tying up his

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Speaker 1: dog Blue, I doubt it. Blue was a different breed,

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Speaker 1: an Australian cattle dog, not a German shepherd. He was black,

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Speaker 1: white and gray, not blonde. And anyway, why would Robert

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Speaker 1: deny that he was the guy outside.

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Speaker 2: The Paulden Survivalists.

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Speaker 1: We reported this one in episode nine. On April first,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and one, while returning to Scottsdale from a

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Speaker 1: wedding in Sedona, Robert unexpectedly stopped at a survivalist compound

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Speaker 1: in Paulden. He made Mary Wade in the car She

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Speaker 1: had no idea what he was doing. He disappeared for

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Speaker 1: an hour, then came back. This is obviously mysterious. Who

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Speaker 1: were these people? Why did Robert meet with them nine

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Speaker 1: days before the murders? Did they in any way help him?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I found something of note. According

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Speaker 1: to Phoenix Magazine, that area was at the time a

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Speaker 1: hot spot for outlaw biker gangs, including the Skull Valley

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Speaker 1: chapter of the Hell's Angels, based in Chino Valley, only

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Speaker 1: ten minutes south.

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Speaker 2: Of Paulden Brian Ballard.

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Speaker 1: On June twenty seventh, two thousand and one, four Scott

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Speaker 1: Steel detectives followed up on a lead from a local

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Speaker 1: inmate that Robert Fischer stayed with a man named Brian

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Speaker 1: Ballard after the murders. A woman nicknamed Ninja, whose real

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Speaker 1: name is redacted in a police report, allegedly helped. From

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Speaker 1: the report quote, it was reported that had brought Fisher

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Speaker 1: to after the murders, Detectives interviewed at least eight people,

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Speaker 1: including Stacy Metcalf, an inmate in Phoenix, Donovan Solstak, s

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Speaker 1: l z Stak, also an inmate in Phoenix, Sally Metcalf,

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Speaker 1: Jessica Baker and two neighbors who lived across the street

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Speaker 1: from possibly a safe house where Robert Fisher stayed after

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Speaker 1: the murders. The neighbors didn't have any information on Fisher,

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Speaker 1: but there was a lot of traffic into and out

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Speaker 1: of the house. They said they suspected it was used

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Speaker 1: to deal drugs. That's all I got from a records request.

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Speaker 1: I was unable to reach anyone named in the report. However,

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Speaker 1: I did identify Brian Ballard as Brian Douglas Ballard nickname Purebread,

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Speaker 1: ilias Mark Laylor, La Lar occupation drywall contractor. Date of

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Speaker 1: birth July twenty seventh, nineteen sixty one, so he was

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Speaker 1: the same age as Robert Fisher. Height six ' one

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Speaker 1: wait one hundred and seventy five pounds, hair, blonde, eyes hazel,

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Speaker 1: so in some ways he physically resembled Fisher too. He

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Speaker 1: has an extensive criminal record, including charges for drug possession, larceny, forgery, trafficking,

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Speaker 1: stolen property, assault, weapons related defenses, disorderly conduct, shoplifting, and

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Speaker 1: driving while impaired. On July twenty first, two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: three months after the Fisher murders, a Phoenix police officer

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Speaker 1: pulled him over and issued him three citations. Five days later,

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Speaker 1: Phoenix police raided the home he shared with his girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: Colinda Lee Davis eighty twenty four North twenty ninth Avenue, which,

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Speaker 1: if you're curious, is twenty miles from the Fisher House.

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Speaker 1: They found meth syringes, drug pipes, counterfeit bills, and pieces

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Speaker 1: of counterfeit checks. Ballard said he was working as an

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Speaker 1: informant for the Glendale Police Department. He claimed he would

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Speaker 1: obtain counterfeit bills from a guy named Tuma, then turn

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Speaker 1: them over to the cops at his house. During the raid,

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Speaker 1: or at least four other people Skyler Lee Writtenauer, Sandra

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Speaker 1: Luis Radell, Michael Thomas Beck, and Augustine Vdalas Velasquez or Vasquez.

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Speaker 1: The spelling is inconsistent in a police report. The report

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Speaker 1: also names Michael William Lampy Lampe, Carl a Pert, and

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Speaker 1: Lester Whitezel, though it's unclear how they're tied to the case.

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Speaker 1: On August fifth, two thousand and one, ten days after

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Speaker 1: the raid, Ballard was pulled over again while out on

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Speaker 1: bail by the same cop who stopped him on July

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Speaker 1: twenty first, in his front pocket, the cop found seven

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty milligrams of meth. Ballard claimed the pants

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Speaker 1: were not actually his, but he quickly gave up that ruse. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he said, they're my pants. Yes, it's my meth. The

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Speaker 1: officer also found a jiggle key used to pick locks

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Speaker 1: on his floorboard, as well as keys to other vehicles,

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Speaker 1: all of which Ballard claimed were his. It's unclear if

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Speaker 1: Phoenix police were aware that Ballard was a person of

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Speaker 1: interest in the Fisher case. They raided his house a

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Speaker 1: month after. Scottsdale Police investigated whether or not he sheltered

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Speaker 1: Robert after the murders. Robert wasn't known to use illegal drugs,

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Speaker 1: but he was seemingly addicted to opioids. He had a prescription,

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Speaker 1: but it's possible he also obtained them illegally, which could

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Speaker 1: explain a connection to someone living in a house used

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Speaker 1: to sell drugs. When arrested in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: Ballard was described as an unemployed addict. If anyone from

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Speaker 1: the criminal underworld helped Robert after the murders, it likely

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Speaker 1: would have been in exchange for money. They may not

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Speaker 1: have even been aware of what he did. If I

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Speaker 1: were law enforcement Here's what I do. Now, Double check

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Speaker 1: this lead. Interview Ballard and everyone else tied to his case.

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Speaker 1: Compare his fingerprints which are on file to Prince recovered

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Speaker 1: from Mary's forerunner. If the keys found in his vehicle

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and one are in storage, see if

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00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 1: any fit the fore runner. Examine other evidence recovered from

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Speaker 1: his house. Check his medical records, see if he was

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Speaker 1: ever treated at one of Robert's hospitals. Finally, if Ballard

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Speaker 1: had ties to someone who produced counterfeit ca and checks,

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Speaker 1: he could have easily had ties to someone who produced

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Speaker 1: falsified identity documents which Robert could have used to escape.

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Speaker 1: So I'd review document forgery cases in the Phoenix metro

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Speaker 1: from say, nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and four,

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Speaker 1: Track down the forgers and interview them. Also, let me

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Speaker 1: say this, if you were involved in a legal activity

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and one and helped Robert Fisher escape

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Speaker 1: or know who did, you could still be eligible for

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Speaker 1: reward money. The cops don't care about you. They don't

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Speaker 1: care about drugs or fake bills from twenty three years ago.

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Speaker 1: They want to catch a guy who killed his wife

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Speaker 1: and children. Please come forward or at least submit information

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Speaker 1: anonymously to law enforcement or US. We'll tell you how

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Speaker 1: to reach us at the end of.

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Speaker 2: This episode the Unit ten Rancher.

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Speaker 1: Some people theorize that after the murders, Robert fled to

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Speaker 1: a remote ranch somewhere in Arizona, disconnected from society. Maybe

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Speaker 1: he's living there today. They say, I find it hard

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Speaker 1: to believe that he's still on some isolated property in

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Speaker 1: state twenty three years later, but it's certainly possible that

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Speaker 1: he used one as a layover while escaping. That exact

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Speaker 1: scenario played out in a high profile way in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven, when the FBI found Chevy Keyhoe, a white supremacist,

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Speaker 1: hiding under a fake name, on a Utah ranch one

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Speaker 1: hundred miles northwest of the Grand Canyon. Keyho helped kill

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Speaker 1: a family in Arkansas, including an eight year old girl,

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Speaker 1: and has suspected ties to the Oklahoma City bombing. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: one of Robert's friends told police that before he killed

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Speaker 1: his family, Robert befriended quote a rancher up in Unit ten.

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Speaker 1: Unit ten is a hunting area sandwiched between Williams, Arizona,

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Speaker 1: and the Grand Canyon. Another friend said that Robert quote

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Speaker 1: had a ranch near the Grand Canyon, presumably not that

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Speaker 1: he owned one, but that he frequented one in the area.

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Speaker 1: The unit ten rancher has never been identified. There's one

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Speaker 1: more Rance related lead. I purposely left it out of

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Speaker 1: episode five. Tell me about the Cherry Creek story lead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this one is bizarre.

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Speaker 1: True Crime Arizona host Brianna Whitney.

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Speaker 3: It was in the late two thousands and this woman

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Speaker 3: named Jesse Clanbal and her friend were going to the

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00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 3: Cherry Creek Store to give people an idea of what

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Speaker 3: that looks like. It's a really small convenience store that

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Speaker 3: has some groceries, but it's more like a like a gas.

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Speaker 2: Station convenience store.

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Speaker 7: And it's in Young and.

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Speaker 3: It's in Young, right, so there's not much off of

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Speaker 3: the road in Young, Like this is the main store

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Speaker 3: that's there, which is.

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Speaker 1: Just south of where the Forerunner was fould right.

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Speaker 3: So tinytown in the woods. If you're listening and trying

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Speaker 3: to visualize this tinytown in the woods, one road, not

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00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 3: much around it. The Cherry Creek Store is probably the

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Speaker 3: main grocery store, but when you think of it, it's

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Speaker 3: like a gas station convenience store to set the scene,

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Speaker 3: and Jesse Clanbial was living in young she had young

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Speaker 3: kids at the time. She and her friend went to

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Speaker 3: the Cherry Creek store to get whatever they needed to

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Speaker 3: get and at the front was a picture of Robert Fisher.

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Speaker 3: You know most wanted. Here's his picture that we've all

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Speaker 3: seen a million times. While they were in there, this

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00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 3: old man, I think with an oxygen tank came in

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Speaker 3: with like aanch hand, a younger ranch hand, and she

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Speaker 3: said that. When they got to the front counter, the

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Speaker 3: old man said, why do you have a picture of

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Speaker 3: my friend?

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Speaker 2: What is that?

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Speaker 3: And you know it's Robert Fisher. He's wanted for murdering

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Speaker 3: his family. As this old man got real irate and upset, like, no,

432
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 3: this man lives on my ranch with me. He would

433
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 3: never do such a thing. He's a great person. This

434
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 3: cannot be him. Why are you paid to him in

435
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 3: this picture? No way, you have the wrong person, and

436
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 3: got really upset at the fact that he claimed whoever

437
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 3: was on his ranch was in this picture. And I

438
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 3: guess eventually he asked the ranch hand, you know, let's go,

439
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 3: let's go, let's get out of here. And so Jesse

440
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: watched this go down and thought, well, that was a

441
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 3: weird interaction, and ended up calling the FBI with the tip.

442
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: The problem is that nobody could track down who the

443
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 3: old man was or what ranch he lived on in

444
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 3: the area. And you might think, oh, maybe there's a

445
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 3: couple of ranches. No, there's a lot of ranches in

446
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 3: northern Arizona, so to know exactly which one we're talking

447
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 3: about would be nearly impossible.

448
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: And part it's interesting because of what Robert Fisher did

449
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: for a living, that he was cardiovascular and respiratory tech

450
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: at the Mayo Clinic, And so I think you highlighted

451
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: the importance of this man rolling in with an oxygen

452
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 1: tank because it's a little anecdotal piece of information, but

453
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: it ties into what Fisher did professionally.

454
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, I think that part stands out. And when

455
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 3: I talked to Robert Fisher's sister on the phone, she

456
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 3: also made mention of that she felt that this was

457
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: the most credible tip because she said she could see

458
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 3: Robert helping somebody. He knew how to work an oxygen

459
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 3: type tank. He was a respiratory therapist at the Mayo Clinic,

460
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: very well renowned. So yeah, I mean, could he have

461
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: been living there.

462
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: Sure, or maybe the man had dementia and was confused.

463
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 3: We just don't know, and that's what's so frustrating.

464
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,

465
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,

466
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: visit neon thirty three dot com or follow me on

467
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: Twitter at John Waalzac joenl Czak.

468
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 7: Thanks for listening.

469
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: There are three people left who are critical to this case.

470
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to discuss two of them now and save

471
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: one for next week. First, the mistress, who could be

472
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: one of at least four different people. In episode six,

473
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: Robert's friend and co worker, Ashley's Zarsty said there were

474
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: persistent rumors that Robert had an affair in the nineties

475
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: with a nurse. For years, the nurse's husband left Robert

476
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 1: threatening voicemails. It was enough to force him to move

477
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: to a different hospital. Then, in nineteen ninety nine, Robert

478
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: cheated on Mary with a masseuse, a one time fling

479
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: at a motel. Finally, in the lead up to the murders,

480
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: there was rampant speculation that he was having another affair.

481
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 1: Confirmation seemingly came when he got sick with at least

482
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: one or more a s TIS and transmitted syphilis to Mary.

483
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: So was robertson fidelity in two thousand and or two

484
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: thousand and one, a quick flame, an ongoing affair, or both.

485
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: Would any of these women or men help him before, during,

486
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: or after the murders? Did police investigate the nurse with

487
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: whom he allegedly had an affair in the nineties, and

488
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: most importantly, if he was having an affair in two

489
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: thousand and one, who was the other person? I found

490
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: four candidates. First, an unknown woman who lived in Prescott Valley, Arizona,

491
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: not far from Robert's mom. Her name is redacted in

492
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: police reports. Second, a woman I'll call Rita. I know

493
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: her name, but for privacy's sake, I'm choosing not to

494
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: name her. It's not something I can do ethically at

495
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: this point. Rita's name surfaced in two thousand and one,

496
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: right after the murders. Police obtained a credit report on her,

497
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: but they were instructed to stop there because they didn't

498
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: have any concrete evidence that she was involved with Fisher

499
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: in quote an extraordinary capacity. Third, a woman all called

500
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: Tina Tino worked with Robert at the Mayo Clinic Hospital.

501
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: I emailed her last year. She responded, asking how I

502
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: found her, then saying quote, I'm going to pass on

503
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: any further discussions on this fourth a woman all call Sandra.

504
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: She also worked with Fisher at Mayo. I also emailed her.

505
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: She said quote, I don't have any more information to

506
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: share with you that wasn't given at the time of

507
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: the horrific thing that he did. Best of luck and

508
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: hopefully someday he'll be found one way or the other.

509
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: For now, that's all I have. Any further action needs

510
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: to be taken by law enforcement.

511
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 7: Moving on to Greg, the.

512
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: Camper who found Mary's SUV in the woods north of

513
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: Young on April nineteenth, two thousand and one. That day,

514
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: he was driving home from Arizona to Oregon. When the

515
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: sun started to set and the weather deteriorated, he stopped

516
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: for the night set up a campsite. As twilight sank

517
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: into the forest, he started walking down a rugged dirt road.

518
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: He spotted a glint of silver an squv. He knew

519
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: it could be Fisher, but come on, really, he figured

520
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: it so unlikely. He returned to his campsite, had dinner,

521
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: and fell asleep in his wood paneled white van. The

522
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: next morning, he circled behind the suv on a hill.

523
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: He peered through binoculars. It was a Forerunner. He saw

524
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: movement blue, Robert's dog. Then he drove forty minutes north

525
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: to a gas station, where he used a payphone to

526
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: call two friends in Mesa, who in turn called the

527
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: Scottsdale Police Department, sparking a massive manhunt in rugged terrain. Meanwhile,

528
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: Greg disappeared. He left the state quickly. Police were unable

529
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: to reach him for a month. Finally they tracked him

530
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: down and spoke to him by phone at his brother's

531
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: home in Oregon. Investigators have always suspected that he possibly

532
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: helped Robert escape, that he drove him to freedom. Police

533
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: reports describe him as a transient camper who roamed the

534
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: nation and made money working odd jobs pouring concrete slab,

535
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: for example. He first heard about the Fisher case on

536
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: the radio on April nineteenth. With darkness and snow descending,

537
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: he stumbled upon the Forerunner while gathering firewood.

538
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 7: By chance.

539
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: He said, it was parked exactly where he camped seven

540
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: months earlier. He noticed the log across the road and thought,

541
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: quote that'd be kind of cute if he Fisher went

542
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: down this road and pushed that log across it, so

543
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: anybody driving down there would just turn around and leave.

544
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: Then he saw on suv poking out of the bushes.

545
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 7: Quote.

546
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: Now, I've been doing this camping stuff for about ten years.

547
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: I know the different styles of camping. There's loitering, there's camping,

548
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: there's homesteading, there's free loading, and then there's hiding. This

549
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: guy was part hiding. You wouldn't camp like that. Greg

550
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: turned around and walked back to his campsite. I kept

551
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: the fire burning real good, he said, But I didn't

552
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: stand near the fire. I stood out in the dark

553
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: because it was a real dark night cold. He noticed

554
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: that whoever the suv belonged to didn't light their own fire,

555
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: which quote raised an eyebrow. At that point, he gave

556
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: it fifty to fifty odds that it was actually Fisher.

557
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: The next morning, he was approached by Robert's dog, Blue,

558
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: who he described as quote a dingo looking thing. The

559
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: dog came about halfway to me, he said. He was

560
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: acting real strange, whining and trying to wag his tail

561
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: at the same time. If he even had a tail,

562
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: I can't remember. He was wagging his butt anyway, and

563
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,239
Speaker 1: he would look at me and then look back at

564
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: the ditch behind the car. There's a little dry wash

565
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: back there, and I figured, well, he Robert killed himself.

566
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: He's laying down in that ditch, and I really didn't

567
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: want to go look at it because it might be

568
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: an ambush or something. I went back and put out

569
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: my fire and threw dirt on it and drove straight

570
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: up to Heber. I was kind of at a loss

571
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: of what to do. I don't use telephones. I don't

572
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: even like them, especially payphones. They just take my money

573
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: and I don't get nothing out of it.

574
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 7: Yet.

575
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: Despite his disdain for coin guzzling phones, Greg called his

576
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: friends the Jackas, then sped away way as investigators and

577
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: the media converged on the Forerunner. Greg spent the night

578
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: twenty one miles north above Chevlon Canyon Lake. The next

579
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 1: day he hit Winslow Flagstaff Page. He crossed into southern Utah,

580
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: drove through the Escalante Staircase area, emerged near Bryce Canyon,

581
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: and continued on to Oregon. Investigators asked how he felt

582
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: about Robert Fisher. I'd like to see him shot dead.

583
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: He said, wherever you find him, because it's going to

584
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: take what seventeen years before you could ever kill him.

585
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: You know, it costs so much money and all that crap.

586
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: Shoot him right there and just say, well, we don't

587
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: know what happened. That's my opinion. It save you a

588
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: couple hundred grand. Investigators chuckled, but they were still suspicious.

589
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: Why didn't Greg stick around? Why did he leave so quickly?

590
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: The original detective John Kirkham died in two thousand and six.

591
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: The investigators who took over the case, including Hugh Lockerby,

592
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: declined a comment. What did you make of the man

593
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: who located the forerunner? I mean he just kind of

594
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: hit the road and was hard to track down.

595
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: Pass okay.

596
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: For an entire year, I try to find Greg. He

597
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: doesn't have much of a paper trail, a fue old

598
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: addresses here and there. I write letters, no response, send emails,

599
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: they bounce back, call possible numbers, not him. By late

600
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, there's nothing left to do but try

601
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: to track him down in person. In December, our producer

602
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: Chris and I hop on a plane. We fly to Seattle,

603
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: drive down to Oregon, start knocking on doors. Over the years,

604
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: I've done this repeatedly. It's always a waste of time,

605
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: an act of desperation.

606
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 7: It never works.

607
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: Until it Greg does Henderson next time I'm missing in Arizona.

608
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: It's a fore runner. Holy shit, there's the job that damn.

609
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: You can reach us by phone at one eight three

610
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: to three new tips that's one eight three, three six

611
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: three nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips

612
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: at iheartman Media dot com, tip s at iHeartMedia dot com,

613
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: online at Neon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter

614
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: at John Wallzac, j O n w A. L. Czak.

615
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: This episode produced by Taylor Chacoine. Paul Decan is our

616
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: executive producer. Chris Brown is our supervising producer. Panna Rose

617
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemberline is our researcher, Ben

618
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: Bolin is a consulting producer, and I'm your host and

619
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: executive producer. John Wallzac recreation voiced by Ben Hackett, header's

620
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: voiced by Taylor Shackoyne. Cover art by Pam Peacock Neon

621
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: thirty three. Logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro song

622
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first two

623
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: seasons of our show Missing in Alaska and Missing on

624
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give us

625
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a co

626
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three.