WEBVTT - The Phone Call 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:11.320 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.239 Danny Shapiro, and this is Family Secrets, the secrets that 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.000 are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:22.560 and the secrets we keep from ourselves. You're about to 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.319 hear from a man we're calling Frank Gold, not his 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.520 real name. We thought long and hard about whether it 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:31.920 was okay to use a pseudonym for a guest on 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.800 Family Secrets. After all, what we're doing on this podcast 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.159 is casting light into the shadows, calling everything by its 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.800 true name. But Frank has a good reason for keeping 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:47.400 his identity private in the name of protecting others. So 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:52.879 here's Frank insert air quotes. My parents, Well, my family, 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:55.120 both sides of the family, came to this country around 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:59.960 the turn of the last century early, so my grandparents 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.200 were all born in the United States. My parents were 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:07.160 born here. I was obviously born here, and my grandparents 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.959 were Their parents were very prosperous that people who came 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.560 here were very hard working and industrious. My father's father 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:18.600 went to college and graduated from college, and my grandparents 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:24.240 were all very affluent. Um, but my parents, both of them, 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.960 we're like, we're like a regressive generation instead of building 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.560 on the prosperity of their immediate ancestors. Both of my 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:39.480 parents were like first generation immigrants. They neither one finished college. 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.959 My father didn't even go to college. He was intrigued 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:48.040 by a wealthy uncle and wanted to just skip to success. 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.400 And uh, that was really not a good recipe for him. 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.120 And um they got married very young in their early twenties, 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:02.360 and they struggled. You know, they were choices and uh, 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:09.720 shortsighted choices. And by the time I was born, they 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.320 were married about two or three years. We were living 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.840 in the Tri State area. You know. I remember we 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.840 lived in like garden apartments, you know, not fancy, and 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.600 uh we lived in one place. When I was in kindergarten, 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.080 we moved again. I mean, I maybe I was the 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:29.160 wrong kid to move a lot, because I take a 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.000 lot in I'm very aware it can be hard to 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.360 move around a lot as a kid. You can feel 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:39.160 kind of unmoored. You become attached to a place, and 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:41.919 then through no choice of your own, you leave that place. 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.600 And Frank's dad kept changing jobs, so it keeps happening 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.480 for Frank, along with his younger sister and brother. For 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.840 Frank This constant moving around forms a key aspect of 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.160 his character, one that will serve him well later in life. 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:01.040 He becomes hyper aware, with a keen almost sixth cents 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:05.359 about people and places. I just remember, you know, this 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.720 awareness is like all these parallel lives, all these every 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:12.560 town has a school, where school district, and you know 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.679 every town in school is going through its own sort 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:21.280 of you know John hughesesque high school experience simultaneously in 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:25.360 parallel all over Long Island, over Westchester, or over New Jerseys, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.480 the same music, the same experience. You go to the 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:32.280 same concerts, but separately. But when you don't move, that's 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.800 your world. And you think that's that is your world. 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.200 Yet when you move at kindergarten in the third and 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:42.800 then the six, none of them are your world. This 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.320 might be hard to imagine for anyone listening who say 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.960 under a thirty Today kids grow up with all of 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.320 this connectivity. They know there are worlds other than their own. 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.680 And while that connectivity, the way we're attached to the 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.360 hip to our devices, definitely has a downside, it also 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.960 has an upside, especially in families in which secrets are pervasive. 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.960 But back then, when Frank grew up, it was hard 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.880 to break through that sense of isolation, a partners a loneness. 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:16.400 Your family's world, your town's world, your community's world. That 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.880 was the whole world as far as you knew. So 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.320 Frank's upbringing, while making him hyper aware, also makes it 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.120 hard for him to get close to people, because, after all, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:33.359 relationships don't last, not when you keep moving. What was 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.120 their relationship like your parents, I wouldn't say it was 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:42.000 particularly warm. They've gotten warmer, by the way, and more 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.760 expressive in their old age than they ever were that 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:51.520 I remember growing up. I don't remember a ton of affection. 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:56.279 I don't remember hardly any emotional conversation. And I just 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:01.120 saw them recently and it's always light la la, superficial stuff. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.840 There's no depth that know. They don't want to talk 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:08.440 about heavy things or emotional things that aren't necessarily even heavy. 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.039 You know, the weather, about what other people are doing, 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:18.760 very little um personal conversation. Ever, when Frank is in 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.560 the ninth or tenth grade, the lack of warmth between 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:28.080 his parents becomes something else, something harder, murkier. They've moved 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.080 all over the Tri state area around New York City, 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.040 and at this point his father is commuting a pretty 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.080 sizable distance to work each day to a better job. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.080 He's making more money, but life isn't getting better. In fact, 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.200 it's getting worse. And the family is pretty isolated because 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.720 Frank's father has shoved away his own relatives always because 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:55.120 of unspoken petty grievances. It went from you know, it's 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.200 some extra time to commute two. All of a sudden, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:03.200 late nights, things were like chugging along normal suburban existence, 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.240 and all of a sudden, you know, it's like ten 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:11.680 o'clock o'clock, and you know, my mother's anxious, upset, standing 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.800 by the window, looking out the window, pacing, and um, 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.320 you know that that creates anxiety in the in the house. 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.919 And you know, we have school the next day and 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:27.000 I am by the way at most fifteen sixteen. You know, 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.640 my sisters like nine and my brothers in between. He 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:34.640 would come home eventually, and uh, they would argue. They 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:38.200 would fight, where were you? What? Why are you home 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.279 still late? Why didn't you tell me? And that's unsettling 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.960 to hear, you know when you're really wide awake in 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:51.080 your bedroom. Were worse awakened by stuff like that? And um, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.240 it was a lot fast, and you know it's in 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:59.080 a family that doesn't really talk about emotions. It was confusing. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.719 It was the most emotional thing I'd ever experienced, probably 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:08.240 up until then. And um, all I remember looking back 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:13.680 is how incessant. To God, it seemed like it grew 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.480 into I mean maybe it started off you know, a 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.000 day a week, and then it grew into like a 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:24.559 constant thing. And there were just these arguments night after 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:29.280 night after night, and then yelling and name calling and 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:33.760 and it was horrible. And you know, it's it's really 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.440 abusive to have nine year olds and twelve year olds 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.520 and you know, sleeping the right listening to this. I mean, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.920 I know couples have problems, but there's a time and 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:49.160 a place and that was neither. And I remember talking 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.800 to my mother one day, was very upset and saying, 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.880 you know, why are you guys fighting all the time? 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.800 And what's going on? Like why can't you, like naively, 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.320 you know, worked this out of fate? What's going on? 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.080 And I remember, I mean I remember where I was standing, like, 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.920 I remember, well, because there's things going on, I said, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:10.600 what's going on? I said, well, what do you think? 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.000 I said, how hell do I know what's going on. 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.520 I'm just I'm just listening to idiots fight all night, 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:23.240 like enough already, and she's, well, there's another woman. And 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:27.120 I didn't know where to go with that. By the way, 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.720 my guess is if I had really listened to the fights, 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.040 I probably would have known that by now. And maybe 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.920 I did know it on some level. But hearing it, 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.760 especially from you know, your parents, who you never spoke 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:45.960 to about anything emotionally or of substance ever anyway, was jarring. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:52.480 And uh, all I remember, you know, is that was 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.480 that persisted through high school. I don't remember anything other 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:01.360 than that fighting. And then I left to go to college. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.240 And uh I went to college, and I didn't think 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.760 about that for one second, not a minute. Did you 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.000 go far away? I mean, did you try a feeling 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.520 miles away? I didn't even visit the school. You know, 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.160 back then you'd get a brochure in the mail and 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.200 type your application and send it off across your fingers. 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:24.480 But it was it was it important to you to 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.160 get away. I like the idea that it was different, 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.920 and I liked the idea that you know that thirty 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.240 two kids in my class, which is about two five 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.040 kids went to one state school. I'm not going to 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.360 school with thirty two people. I just spent less, you know, 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:42.760 four plus years with I liked the idea that no 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.199 one was going there. I mean, I, yeah, I might 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.240 sing a pattern now, yeah, you know, it didn't occur 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:49.680 to me that I like, I got to get out 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.319 of here. But I did. And I wanted to change 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.280 and I wanted new and I got it. I really did. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.400 And um, what's funny, We're interesting. I remember going to 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:07.360 college and totally compartmentalizing and blocking out these fights and 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:13.400 all this horribleness. And I mean, Danny was the night 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:19.640 after night after night after it's it's it's torture. I mean, 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:22.600 you know, it's funny. At one point, I said to 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.480 my mother when I was still home, you gotta leave. 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.640 Why are you doing this? He's not he's not. It's 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.720 not working. Like, get get out, Let's get the funk 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.680 out of here. Like what are we doing here? I 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:43.680 can't you don't understand. It's complicated. Let's take a quick 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:50.120 break here. There were other family fights going on at 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.880 the same time. Frank's mother used to fight with her 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.080 mother on the phone. He would hear the two of 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.200 them going at it all the time, more anger, more 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.360 rage that he constantly overhearing. During his childhood and adolescence, 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.080 he used to want to walk into the kitchen, take 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.400 the phone out of his mother's hand and hang it 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:12.560 up because he just couldn't take it anymore. I will 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:17.400 say that my mother, who really is is not the 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.920 perpetrator in any of those stories, is the professional victim 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.880 in a way, like how she could those that same 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.720 conversation with my grandmother countless times for years and years 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.240 I'll never understand. And then to gets stuck in a 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:37.000 it's her own with my father in that dynamic. It's 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:42.000 horrible And I don't know why she took it where 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:46.680 she felt so powerless, but she obviously did. I don't 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.000 want to say I resented her for it, but it 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:54.800 angered me that she was not stronger. So now we're 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.679 talking about you're in college. Now I come home to 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.559 visit and my you know, my sister and brothers still 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:02.160 live in the house because they're here in high school 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:07.560 or middle school whatever, the same things happening, And I think, 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:13.680 oh my god. Still every night, every night he goes 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.280 to work, she it's turns dark. She's standing at the door, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:23.240 pacing upset, everyone's in their bed. He comes home, and 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:28.680 the same two person play plays out, you know, from 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:33.520 ten to midnight, like like like it was the first day, 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.840 like I never left. Frank's now out of college and 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.600 one day he needs to borrow his dad's video camera. 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.559 This was in the early days of video cameras, when 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.880 they took VHS cassette tapes, the era well before smartphones. 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.280 So Frank's dad sets out to show Frank how to 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.240 use the camera. Frank calls this a normal sea moment, 0:12:55.600 --> 0:13:00.160 you know, like backyard barbecues or shooting hoops or eying 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:03.920 board games. Normal, just something any father and son might do. 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.240 So in this normalcy moment, I remember him showing it 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:13.560 to me and how it works, and he had to 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.959 put a tape in it. And he had a tape 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.720 in it, you know, and he's like, you hit play, 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.640 you know, and you know, you just record and then 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.280 you can go back, and a video started to play. 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.199 I think he thought that the tape was probably blank, 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.080 and it was well. I remember is like a kid, 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.680 like a young boy playing on a lawn, and I 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.800 thought it for maybe five or ten seconds. He got 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.520 completely flustered, so I thought it was mine, let me 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.880 see that, and you know, took it, took a camera 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.200 triad off and fiddled with it and wound and did 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:56.800 something and I thought, whatever, dude, Like, so there's something 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:58.920 on the tape, Like it didn't occur to me that 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.760 it was his or it was a secret or I mean, 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.960 I thought, what are y'all jumping about? Like the reaction 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.880 seemed odd? And I remembered it, and yeah, and you 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.600 remembered it. It stayed with you. Yeah, because I you know, 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.960 I think, Um, I've developed this thing for it's not 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:25.480 even conscious. Um, I'm very tuned to people's behaviors, patterns, 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.680 the way they do things or say things, not consciously. 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:33.680 I don't have a list, but when you change course, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:39.840 when you're not consistent, when you're speaking oddly, or something's 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:45.400 out of your pattern. Despite the senses tingle, I think 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:51.800 for people from whom a tremendous secret has been kept, 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.800 develop a kind of sixth sense, some sense of there's 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.320 a heightened sensitivity because you don't know that there's a secret. 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:02.920 I mean, that's it wouldn't be a secret if you 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.800 knew there was a secret. There's just this feeling of 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:13.280 hyper vigilance or UM observing very carefully the piece is 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.080 not necessarily totally adding up UM. And then I think 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.520 in retrospect those moments, like the moment with the video cassette, 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:26.120 become AHA moments. It certainly wasn't an AHA moment as 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.120 you were experiencing it, but later, yeah, I filed it away. 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.240 And by the way, I didn't try to develop the skill. 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:35.880 I didn't know I had the skill. I didn't know 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.320 everyone didn't see and perceive things the way I did. 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.840 But I now know. You know that I have a 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:48.120 hyper subconscious awareness, two patterns, two behaviors. You know, it's 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.240 funny you don't want to watch a movie with me 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.280 because I can spot that formula. There's nothing unintentional in 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:58.040 a movie. So everything they say and do that seems 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.600 meaningless or an ocuous is not. It's a It's a 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.400 plot device. And I'm like, oh, he's gonna get locked 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.320 out of his house when they focus on the keys, 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.720 being like, there's a reason for all that stuff, And yeah, 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.600 I think this was the this is the byproduct of 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:17.360 this UM. I mean, my mother told me in part 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:21.440 with the one little factory that she knew that you know, 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:25.240 this fighting and CoML was you know, the result of 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:30.720 an infidelity, but there was still so much lying and 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:36.760 manipulation and emotional abuse happening, and uh, you know, you 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.880 sit up, You're sitting in your bed in the pitch black, 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.240 and you hear it all, and you hear at night 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.920 after night, and you know, all of a sudden, You're like, 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.440 I'm hearing inconsistencies in the story. She's not picking up 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.720 on it because she's sobbing and yelling, but I'm thinking, well, wait, 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:55.480 you didn't. That's not what you said two nights ago. 0:16:55.880 --> 0:17:04.480 It's a rough way to develop that skill. So fast 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.359 forward into Frank's adult life. He becomes an attorney. His 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.440 skills as an interpreter of people's patterns and behavior serves 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.720 him well in his career. He marries, has three kids, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:20.280 his parents still together, incredibly, moved to Florida, and sort 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.439 of settle into a calmer life. The violent fights have 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.760 been reduced to squabbling, but with a mean edge to it. 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:32.720 Frank doesn't see them too often. One day, literally, I'm 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.879 sitting at my desk like life is just normal, and 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.600 that stuff is very far behind me and very distant 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.960 in my mind. The phone rings and it's my sister 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.280 and she's like, hey, we need I need to talk 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:56.879 to you. And she said, I got a call and uh, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.359 I don't know what to do with it. I said, well, 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.320 what are you talking about out and she's like, well, 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:04.520 you know all the stuff we talked about growing up 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.840 and all the fighting and all that other stuff. I said, yeah. 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:13.480 She's like, well, I got a call from our half 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:22.600 brother and I said, why who? I am unaware of 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.560 a half brother. I'm like, what are you talking about? 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:31.320 She says, well, it seems that all those fights and 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.359 all those like nights, it wasn't just an affair. It 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:40.000 blossomed into another family. I said, and there's a son. 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:47.240 She says, no, there are two. And I laughed because 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:55.040 it's insane news. It's unimaginable. It changes your entire reality 0:18:55.040 --> 0:19:00.480 in a moment, and it's not even just one. And 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:06.920 I needed a moment to just like process, like, okay, 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:08.920 let me shut the door and you can tell me, 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.520 like what are you sure? Like you don't know where 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:18.399 to go with something like that. And uh. She told 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:24.560 me this story how this guy kid called her and 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.560 you know he's younger than us because he was born 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:35.600 when we were in high school. And uh, the short 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.600 version is this is the older son. He uh speaks 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:44.080 to my father and sees my father fairly often. And 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.000 he said to my father one day, you know, you're 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.000 getting older, and what happens, like you know if if 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.480 you were sick or you died, Like, how would I know? 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.160 I need to speak to my siblings and find out. 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:02.480 And my freaking father's like, yeah, call call my daughter 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:07.600 because she's the most understanding. I'm like, they didn't think 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.760 I would understand. I don't want to call me by 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.840 the way, probably pick the right person. But you know 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.040 I went from like stunned and almost laughing to like 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:24.159 kind of anger. So your half brother calls your sister 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:31.160 and introduces himself with your father's permission. Yes, and and 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.919 but but my father does not have the balls to 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.080 to to make the call himself. First of all, that's 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:43.320 a cowardly move. Your this kid, your your your secret half, 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.720 your secret son wants to speak to his adult path 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:51.639 siblings and you decide with him which one is the 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.160 best to approach, and then you let him do it. 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.879 That's offensive. And she's like, you have no idea. The 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.040 conversation I had with this like we thought we had 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:06.000 it bad. He had the reverse, you know. He the 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:13.000 times that Dad was home, he wasn't there. And that 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.879 woman who concocted a whole story. See, they didn't know 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.800 there was another family. They thought he was busy and 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:27.040 traveling and at work. Hold them. So your father, who 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:30.760 was pretty ineffective in a variety of ways in life, 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.439 you know, professionally, that kind of saying as average or below, 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:39.600 as running the mill, unexceptional as you get, except as 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:46.040 someone who managed to have two households, each of which 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:53.440 didn't know about the other. Correct, How did this half 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:59.000 brother then know that there was another family with other siblings. 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.760 He's like a like a criminal investigator, which I think 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:08.040 is hilarious because part of him calling my sister might 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.520 have been about, you know, just were in contact in 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:13.760 case of theing happens to my father. I think the 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:16.560 other half, for maybe more than half, was he actually 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.920 wanted some answers, and I suspect he wasn't getting them 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:23.400 from my father. And now, now keep in mind, now 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.159 we're in the age of social media, and it's not 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.680 hard to find people, and it's not hard to find 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:33.199 people with your last name or your proximity, especially if 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:37.240 you're a criminal investigator for a police department. So then 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:41.800 what happens, Frank, how do you process? Does your mind 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:48.679 go back to that VHS cassette tape. Absolutely, And it 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.240 goes back to why why he wouldn't stop the behavior? 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:57.639 You know, he would lie and connive and promise, but 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:02.919 he had a house with two babies, so he's not 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:08.000 gonna stop. And by the way, so I mean so 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.000 I my sister explains all this to me and gives 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:13.080 has a lot of details because she's spoke to in length, 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:20.159 and I said, this is a huge bromb this, this 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:25.400 is not okay. And um, first of all, I don't 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:29.600 really I know this kid who called is innocent in this. 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:35.600 You know, he didn't choose it, he's I don't begrudge 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.560 him wanting to know his full story because he had 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:42.120 an even more bizarre He also lived in the household 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:46.320 lies just different lies, and maybe they weren't fighting, but 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:53.640 he saw his father very not often less than we did, ironically, 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:56.520 So I don't want to meet him and I don't 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.200 want him to be in my life. And I wish 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:04.480 you didn't exist. And while I don't, I begrudge him nothing. 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:11.399 It doesn't work for me. So I said that to 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:16.440 her right away. I said, I'm not interested. I'm not 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:21.120 talking to him, I'm not meeting him. And my sister said, yeah, yeah, 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:24.399 me too. I didn't believe at the time, although I 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:29.640 think she's come around to that, and um, I said, 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:33.960 we have to talk to are that about this? Like 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:38.199 this is not okay? And I thought about it for 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:41.879 a long time. And you go through a lot of 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:48.280 different feelings, you know, those stages of grief, truly, anger, denial, bargaining. 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:50.200 I mean, you really do go through that. What would 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:55.720 you say you were grieving? I thought those days and 0:24:55.800 --> 0:25:01.120 those feelings and those scaps were behind me, if not healed, 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:06.720 closed at least, and like an alien just showing up. 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:10.440 Like I'm telling you, your reality change is in an instant. 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:16.280 It's very disorienting to think you know the world today 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:20.560 and receive a phone call and find out that humans 0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:27.240 exist that don't fit with your story, blood relatives and 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:31.000 they're alive and they were and it's and that's the reality. 0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:35.560 It's the difference between like the language, like when my 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:37.560 when I found out that my dad hadn't been my 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:41.639 biological father. I was describing it as something that happened 0:25:41.680 --> 0:25:44.119 to me that I discovered that, you know, that I 0:25:44.200 --> 0:25:46.959 wasn't who I thought I was, literally, and I realized 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:48.840 I had to change the language because it wasn't something 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.720 that happened to me. It had always been thus like 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:55.440 it it was me, and that, I think is part 0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:59.840 of what's shocking and disorienting when you uncover a secret 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:04.000 that because it was the reality. You didn't know it 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:07.000 was the reality, but it was for a very long 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:09.600 time in your life. Yes, And I feel betrayed and 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:13.199 deceived because of it. And I never trusted people that 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:18.280 much like when I I. Most people give people trust 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:22.359 and then people can lose that I I don't distrust, 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:25.199 but I started out at zero. No one gets credit 0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:30.560 in advance, and that was formed long before this phone call. 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:34.600 The phone call lets me to work where it came from, 0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:39.000 even though it wasn't always conscious. We're going to pause 0:26:39.040 --> 0:26:45.440 for a moment for a word from our sponsor. Frank 0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:48.639 tells his wife the story because, as he puts it, 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.800 that's what couples and healthy relationships do. But he feels 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:56.720 sick about it, embarrassed, as if somehow this reflects poorly 0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:59.920 on him, and then after sitting on it for about 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:03.919 a week, he calls his father. I said, this is 0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:10.000 not okay, it's not He says, look, life is complicated, 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:13.600 and you know, all I could say is you you know, 0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:17.439 you have needs, you take actions, you do something and 0:27:17.480 --> 0:27:20.040 you think it's one thing and it turns into something else, 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:23.680 and all of a sudden you have this. And I said, yeah, 0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:30.960 maybe for one kid, not too. Two is not an accident. 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:34.840