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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm

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Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro, and this is Family Secrets, the secrets that

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Speaker 1: are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others,

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Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. You're about to

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Speaker 1: hear from a man we're calling Frank Gold, not his

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Speaker 1: real name. We thought long and hard about whether it

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Speaker 1: was okay to use a pseudonym for a guest on

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Speaker 1: Family Secrets. After all, what we're doing on this podcast

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Speaker 1: is casting light into the shadows, calling everything by its

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Speaker 1: true name. But Frank has a good reason for keeping

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Speaker 1: his identity private in the name of protecting others. So

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Speaker 1: here's Frank insert air quotes. My parents, Well, my family,

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Speaker 1: both sides of the family, came to this country around

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Speaker 1: the turn of the last century early, so my grandparents

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Speaker 1: were all born in the United States. My parents were

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Speaker 1: born here. I was obviously born here, and my grandparents

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Speaker 1: were Their parents were very prosperous that people who came

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Speaker 1: here were very hard working and industrious. My father's father

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Speaker 1: went to college and graduated from college, and my grandparents

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Speaker 1: were all very affluent. Um, but my parents, both of them,

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Speaker 1: we're like, we're like a regressive generation instead of building

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Speaker 1: on the prosperity of their immediate ancestors. Both of my

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Speaker 1: parents were like first generation immigrants. They neither one finished college.

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Speaker 1: My father didn't even go to college. He was intrigued

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Speaker 1: by a wealthy uncle and wanted to just skip to success.

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Speaker 1: And uh, that was really not a good recipe for him.

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Speaker 1: And um they got married very young in their early twenties,

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Speaker 1: and they struggled. You know, they were choices and uh,

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Speaker 1: shortsighted choices. And by the time I was born, they

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Speaker 1: were married about two or three years. We were living

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Speaker 1: in the Tri State area. You know. I remember we

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Speaker 1: lived in like garden apartments, you know, not fancy, and

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Speaker 1: uh we lived in one place. When I was in kindergarten,

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Speaker 1: we moved again. I mean, I maybe I was the

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Speaker 1: wrong kid to move a lot, because I take a

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Speaker 1: lot in I'm very aware it can be hard to

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Speaker 1: move around a lot as a kid. You can feel

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Speaker 1: kind of unmoored. You become attached to a place, and

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Speaker 1: then through no choice of your own, you leave that place.

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Speaker 1: And Frank's dad kept changing jobs, so it keeps happening

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Speaker 1: for Frank, along with his younger sister and brother. For

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Speaker 1: Frank This constant moving around forms a key aspect of

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Speaker 1: his character, one that will serve him well later in life.

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Speaker 1: He becomes hyper aware, with a keen almost sixth cents

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Speaker 1: about people and places. I just remember, you know, this

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Speaker 1: awareness is like all these parallel lives, all these every

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Speaker 1: town has a school, where school district, and you know

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Speaker 1: every town in school is going through its own sort

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Speaker 1: of you know John hughesesque high school experience simultaneously in

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Speaker 1: parallel all over Long Island, over Westchester, or over New Jerseys,

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Speaker 1: the same music, the same experience. You go to the

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Speaker 1: same concerts, but separately. But when you don't move, that's

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Speaker 1: your world. And you think that's that is your world.

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Speaker 1: Yet when you move at kindergarten in the third and

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Speaker 1: then the six, none of them are your world. This

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Speaker 1: might be hard to imagine for anyone listening who say

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Speaker 1: under a thirty Today kids grow up with all of

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Speaker 1: this connectivity. They know there are worlds other than their own.

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Speaker 1: And while that connectivity, the way we're attached to the

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Speaker 1: hip to our devices, definitely has a downside, it also

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Speaker 1: has an upside, especially in families in which secrets are pervasive.

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Speaker 1: But back then, when Frank grew up, it was hard

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Speaker 1: to break through that sense of isolation, a partners a loneness.

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Speaker 1: Your family's world, your town's world, your community's world. That

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Speaker 1: was the whole world as far as you knew. So

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Speaker 1: Frank's upbringing, while making him hyper aware, also makes it

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Speaker 1: hard for him to get close to people, because, after all,

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Speaker 1: relationships don't last, not when you keep moving. What was

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Speaker 1: their relationship like your parents, I wouldn't say it was

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Speaker 1: particularly warm. They've gotten warmer, by the way, and more

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Speaker 1: expressive in their old age than they ever were that

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Speaker 1: I remember growing up. I don't remember a ton of affection.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember hardly any emotional conversation. And I just

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Speaker 1: saw them recently and it's always light la la, superficial stuff.

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Speaker 1: There's no depth that know. They don't want to talk

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Speaker 1: about heavy things or emotional things that aren't necessarily even heavy.

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Speaker 1: You know, the weather, about what other people are doing,

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Speaker 1: very little um personal conversation. Ever, when Frank is in

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Speaker 1: the ninth or tenth grade, the lack of warmth between

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Speaker 1: his parents becomes something else, something harder, murkier. They've moved

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Speaker 1: all over the Tri state area around New York City,

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Speaker 1: and at this point his father is commuting a pretty

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Speaker 1: sizable distance to work each day to a better job.

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Speaker 1: He's making more money, but life isn't getting better. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it's getting worse. And the family is pretty isolated because

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Speaker 1: Frank's father has shoved away his own relatives always because

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Speaker 1: of unspoken petty grievances. It went from you know, it's

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Speaker 1: some extra time to commute two. All of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: late nights, things were like chugging along normal suburban existence,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you know, it's like ten

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Speaker 1: o'clock o'clock, and you know, my mother's anxious, upset, standing

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Speaker 1: by the window, looking out the window, pacing, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know that that creates anxiety in the in the house.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we have school the next day and

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Speaker 1: I am by the way at most fifteen sixteen. You know,

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Speaker 1: my sisters like nine and my brothers in between. He

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Speaker 1: would come home eventually, and uh, they would argue. They

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Speaker 1: would fight, where were you? What? Why are you home

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Speaker 1: still late? Why didn't you tell me? And that's unsettling

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Speaker 1: to hear, you know when you're really wide awake in

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Speaker 1: your bedroom. Were worse awakened by stuff like that? And um,

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Speaker 1: it was a lot fast, and you know it's in

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Speaker 1: a family that doesn't really talk about emotions. It was confusing.

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Speaker 1: It was the most emotional thing I'd ever experienced, probably

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Speaker 1: up until then. And um, all I remember looking back

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Speaker 1: is how incessant. To God, it seemed like it grew

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Speaker 1: into I mean maybe it started off you know, a

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Speaker 1: day a week, and then it grew into like a

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Speaker 1: constant thing. And there were just these arguments night after

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Speaker 1: night after night, and then yelling and name calling and

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Speaker 1: and it was horrible. And you know, it's it's really

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Speaker 1: abusive to have nine year olds and twelve year olds

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Speaker 1: and you know, sleeping the right listening to this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know couples have problems, but there's a time and

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Speaker 1: a place and that was neither. And I remember talking

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Speaker 1: to my mother one day, was very upset and saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, why are you guys fighting all the time?

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Speaker 1: And what's going on? Like why can't you, like naively,

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Speaker 1: you know, worked this out of fate? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: And I remember, I mean I remember where I was standing, like,

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Speaker 1: I remember, well, because there's things going on, I said,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? I said, well, what do you think?

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Speaker 1: I said, how hell do I know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just listening to idiots fight all night,

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Speaker 1: like enough already, and she's, well, there's another woman. And

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Speaker 1: I didn't know where to go with that. By the way,

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Speaker 1: my guess is if I had really listened to the fights,

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Speaker 1: I probably would have known that by now. And maybe

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Speaker 1: I did know it on some level. But hearing it,

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Speaker 1: especially from you know, your parents, who you never spoke

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Speaker 1: to about anything emotionally or of substance ever anyway, was jarring.

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Speaker 1: And uh, all I remember, you know, is that was

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Speaker 1: that persisted through high school. I don't remember anything other

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Speaker 1: than that fighting. And then I left to go to college.

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Speaker 1: And uh I went to college, and I didn't think

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Speaker 1: about that for one second, not a minute. Did you

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Speaker 1: go far away? I mean, did you try a feeling

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Speaker 1: miles away? I didn't even visit the school. You know,

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Speaker 1: back then you'd get a brochure in the mail and

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Speaker 1: type your application and send it off across your fingers.

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Speaker 1: But it was it was it important to you to

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Speaker 1: get away. I like the idea that it was different,

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Speaker 1: and I liked the idea that you know that thirty

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Speaker 1: two kids in my class, which is about two five

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Speaker 1: kids went to one state school. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: school with thirty two people. I just spent less, you know,

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Speaker 1: four plus years with I liked the idea that no

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Speaker 1: one was going there. I mean, I, yeah, I might

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Speaker 1: sing a pattern now, yeah, you know, it didn't occur

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Speaker 1: to me that I like, I got to get out

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Speaker 1: of here. But I did. And I wanted to change

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Speaker 1: and I wanted new and I got it. I really did.

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Speaker 1: And um, what's funny, We're interesting. I remember going to

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Speaker 1: college and totally compartmentalizing and blocking out these fights and

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Speaker 1: all this horribleness. And I mean, Danny was the night

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Speaker 1: after night after night after it's it's it's torture. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. At one point, I said to

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Speaker 1: my mother when I was still home, you gotta leave.

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Speaker 1: Why are you doing this? He's not he's not. It's

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Speaker 1: not working. Like, get get out, Let's get the funk

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Speaker 1: out of here. Like what are we doing here? I

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Speaker 1: can't you don't understand. It's complicated. Let's take a quick

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Speaker 1: break here. There were other family fights going on at

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Speaker 1: the same time. Frank's mother used to fight with her

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Speaker 1: mother on the phone. He would hear the two of

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Speaker 1: them going at it all the time, more anger, more

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Speaker 1: rage that he constantly overhearing. During his childhood and adolescence,

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Speaker 1: he used to want to walk into the kitchen, take

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Speaker 1: the phone out of his mother's hand and hang it

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Speaker 1: up because he just couldn't take it anymore. I will

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Speaker 1: say that my mother, who really is is not the

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Speaker 1: perpetrator in any of those stories, is the professional victim

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Speaker 1: in a way, like how she could those that same

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Speaker 1: conversation with my grandmother countless times for years and years

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Speaker 1: I'll never understand. And then to gets stuck in a

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Speaker 1: it's her own with my father in that dynamic. It's

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Speaker 1: horrible And I don't know why she took it where

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Speaker 1: she felt so powerless, but she obviously did. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say I resented her for it, but it

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Speaker 1: angered me that she was not stronger. So now we're

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Speaker 1: talking about you're in college. Now I come home to

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Speaker 1: visit and my you know, my sister and brothers still

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Speaker 1: live in the house because they're here in high school

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Speaker 1: or middle school whatever, the same things happening, And I think,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. Still every night, every night he goes

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Speaker 1: to work, she it's turns dark. She's standing at the door,

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Speaker 1: pacing upset, everyone's in their bed. He comes home, and

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Speaker 1: the same two person play plays out, you know, from

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Speaker 1: ten to midnight, like like like it was the first day,

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Speaker 1: like I never left. Frank's now out of college and

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Speaker 1: one day he needs to borrow his dad's video camera.

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Speaker 1: This was in the early days of video cameras, when

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Speaker 1: they took VHS cassette tapes, the era well before smartphones.

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Speaker 1: So Frank's dad sets out to show Frank how to

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Speaker 1: use the camera. Frank calls this a normal sea moment,

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Speaker 1: you know, like backyard barbecues or shooting hoops or eying

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Speaker 1: board games. Normal, just something any father and son might do.

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Speaker 1: So in this normalcy moment, I remember him showing it

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Speaker 1: to me and how it works, and he had to

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Speaker 1: put a tape in it. And he had a tape

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Speaker 1: in it, you know, and he's like, you hit play,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you know, you just record and then

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Speaker 1: you can go back, and a video started to play.

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Speaker 1: I think he thought that the tape was probably blank,

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Speaker 1: and it was well. I remember is like a kid,

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Speaker 1: like a young boy playing on a lawn, and I

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Speaker 1: thought it for maybe five or ten seconds. He got

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Speaker 1: completely flustered, so I thought it was mine, let me

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Speaker 1: see that, and you know, took it, took a camera

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Speaker 1: triad off and fiddled with it and wound and did

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Speaker 1: something and I thought, whatever, dude, Like, so there's something

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Speaker 1: on the tape, Like it didn't occur to me that

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Speaker 1: it was his or it was a secret or I mean,

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Speaker 1: I thought, what are y'all jumping about? Like the reaction

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Speaker 1: seemed odd? And I remembered it, and yeah, and you

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Speaker 1: remembered it. It stayed with you. Yeah, because I you know,

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Speaker 1: I think, Um, I've developed this thing for it's not

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Speaker 1: even conscious. Um, I'm very tuned to people's behaviors, patterns,

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Speaker 1: the way they do things or say things, not consciously.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a list, but when you change course,

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Speaker 1: when you're not consistent, when you're speaking oddly, or something's

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Speaker 1: out of your pattern. Despite the senses tingle, I think

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Speaker 1: for people from whom a tremendous secret has been kept,

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Speaker 1: develop a kind of sixth sense, some sense of there's

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Speaker 1: a heightened sensitivity because you don't know that there's a secret.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's it wouldn't be a secret if you

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Speaker 1: knew there was a secret. There's just this feeling of

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Speaker 1: hyper vigilance or UM observing very carefully the piece is

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Speaker 1: not necessarily totally adding up UM. And then I think

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Speaker 1: in retrospect those moments, like the moment with the video cassette,

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Speaker 1: become AHA moments. It certainly wasn't an AHA moment as

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Speaker 1: you were experiencing it, but later, yeah, I filed it away.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I didn't try to develop the skill.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know I had the skill. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: everyone didn't see and perceive things the way I did.

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Speaker 1: But I now know. You know that I have a

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Speaker 1: hyper subconscious awareness, two patterns, two behaviors. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: funny you don't want to watch a movie with me

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Speaker 1: because I can spot that formula. There's nothing unintentional in

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Speaker 1: a movie. So everything they say and do that seems

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Speaker 1: meaningless or an ocuous is not. It's a It's a

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Speaker 1: plot device. And I'm like, oh, he's gonna get locked

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Speaker 1: out of his house when they focus on the keys,

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Speaker 1: being like, there's a reason for all that stuff, And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this was the this is the byproduct of

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Speaker 1: this UM. I mean, my mother told me in part

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Speaker 1: with the one little factory that she knew that you know,

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Speaker 1: this fighting and CoML was you know, the result of

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Speaker 1: an infidelity, but there was still so much lying and

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Speaker 1: manipulation and emotional abuse happening, and uh, you know, you

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Speaker 1: sit up, You're sitting in your bed in the pitch black,

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Speaker 1: and you hear it all, and you hear at night

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Speaker 1: after night, and you know, all of a sudden, You're like,

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing inconsistencies in the story. She's not picking up

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Speaker 1: on it because she's sobbing and yelling, but I'm thinking, well, wait,

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Speaker 1: you didn't. That's not what you said two nights ago.

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Speaker 1: It's a rough way to develop that skill. So fast

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Speaker 1: forward into Frank's adult life. He becomes an attorney. His

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Speaker 1: skills as an interpreter of people's patterns and behavior serves

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Speaker 1: him well in his career. He marries, has three kids,

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Speaker 1: his parents still together, incredibly, moved to Florida, and sort

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Speaker 1: of settle into a calmer life. The violent fights have

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Speaker 1: been reduced to squabbling, but with a mean edge to it.

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Speaker 1: Frank doesn't see them too often. One day, literally, I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting at my desk like life is just normal, and

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Speaker 1: that stuff is very far behind me and very distant

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Speaker 1: in my mind. The phone rings and it's my sister

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Speaker 1: and she's like, hey, we need I need to talk

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Speaker 1: to you. And she said, I got a call and uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with it. I said, well,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about out and she's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know all the stuff we talked about growing up

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Speaker 1: and all the fighting and all that other stuff. I said, yeah.

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Speaker 1: She's like, well, I got a call from our half

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Speaker 1: brother and I said, why who? I am unaware of

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Speaker 1: a half brother. I'm like, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: She says, well, it seems that all those fights and

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Speaker 1: all those like nights, it wasn't just an affair. It

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Speaker 1: blossomed into another family. I said, and there's a son.

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Speaker 1: She says, no, there are two. And I laughed because

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Speaker 1: it's insane news. It's unimaginable. It changes your entire reality

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Speaker 1: in a moment, and it's not even just one. And

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Speaker 1: I needed a moment to just like process, like, okay,

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Speaker 1: let me shut the door and you can tell me,

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Speaker 1: like what are you sure? Like you don't know where

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Speaker 1: to go with something like that. And uh. She told

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Speaker 1: me this story how this guy kid called her and

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Speaker 1: you know he's younger than us because he was born

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Speaker 1: when we were in high school. And uh, the short

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Speaker 1: version is this is the older son. He uh speaks

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Speaker 1: to my father and sees my father fairly often. And

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Speaker 1: he said to my father one day, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: getting older, and what happens, like you know if if

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Speaker 1: you were sick or you died, Like, how would I know?

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Speaker 1: I need to speak to my siblings and find out.

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Speaker 1: And my freaking father's like, yeah, call call my daughter

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Speaker 1: because she's the most understanding. I'm like, they didn't think

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Speaker 1: I would understand. I don't want to call me by

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Speaker 1: the way, probably pick the right person. But you know

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Speaker 1: I went from like stunned and almost laughing to like

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Speaker 1: kind of anger. So your half brother calls your sister

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Speaker 1: and introduces himself with your father's permission. Yes, and and

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Speaker 1: but but my father does not have the balls to

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Speaker 1: to to make the call himself. First of all, that's

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Speaker 1: a cowardly move. Your this kid, your your your secret half,

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Speaker 1: your secret son wants to speak to his adult path

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Speaker 1: siblings and you decide with him which one is the

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Speaker 1: best to approach, and then you let him do it.

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Speaker 1: That's offensive. And she's like, you have no idea. The

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Speaker 1: conversation I had with this like we thought we had

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Speaker 1: it bad. He had the reverse, you know. He the

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Speaker 1: times that Dad was home, he wasn't there. And that

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Speaker 1: woman who concocted a whole story. See, they didn't know

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Speaker 1: there was another family. They thought he was busy and

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Speaker 1: traveling and at work. Hold them. So your father, who

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Speaker 1: was pretty ineffective in a variety of ways in life,

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Speaker 1: you know, professionally, that kind of saying as average or below,

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Speaker 1: as running the mill, unexceptional as you get, except as

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Speaker 1: someone who managed to have two households, each of which

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Speaker 1: didn't know about the other. Correct, How did this half

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Speaker 1: brother then know that there was another family with other siblings.

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Speaker 1: He's like a like a criminal investigator, which I think

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Speaker 1: is hilarious because part of him calling my sister might

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Speaker 1: have been about, you know, just were in contact in

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Speaker 1: case of theing happens to my father. I think the

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Speaker 1: other half, for maybe more than half, was he actually

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Speaker 1: wanted some answers, and I suspect he wasn't getting them

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Speaker 1: from my father. And now, now keep in mind, now

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Speaker 1: we're in the age of social media, and it's not

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Speaker 1: hard to find people, and it's not hard to find

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Speaker 1: people with your last name or your proximity, especially if

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Speaker 1: you're a criminal investigator for a police department. So then

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Speaker 1: what happens, Frank, how do you process? Does your mind

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Speaker 1: go back to that VHS cassette tape. Absolutely, And it

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00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: goes back to why why he wouldn't stop the behavior?

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Speaker 1: You know, he would lie and connive and promise, but

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Speaker 1: he had a house with two babies, so he's not

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Speaker 1: gonna stop. And by the way, so I mean so

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Speaker 1: I my sister explains all this to me and gives

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Speaker 1: has a lot of details because she's spoke to in length,

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Speaker 1: and I said, this is a huge bromb this, this

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Speaker 1: is not okay. And um, first of all, I don't

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Speaker 1: really I know this kid who called is innocent in this.

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Speaker 1: You know, he didn't choose it, he's I don't begrudge

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00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: him wanting to know his full story because he had

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Speaker 1: an even more bizarre He also lived in the household

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00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: lies just different lies, and maybe they weren't fighting, but

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Speaker 1: he saw his father very not often less than we did, ironically,

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to meet him and I don't

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Speaker 1: want him to be in my life. And I wish

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Speaker 1: you didn't exist. And while I don't, I begrudge him nothing.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work for me. So I said that to

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Speaker 1: her right away. I said, I'm not interested. I'm not

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Speaker 1: talking to him, I'm not meeting him. And my sister said, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: me too. I didn't believe at the time, although I

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00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 1: think she's come around to that, and um, I said,

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00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: we have to talk to are that about this? Like

358
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 1: this is not okay? And I thought about it for

359
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: a long time. And you go through a lot of

360
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: different feelings, you know, those stages of grief, truly, anger, denial, bargaining.

361
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Speaker 1: I mean, you really do go through that. What would

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Speaker 1: you say you were grieving? I thought those days and

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Speaker 1: those feelings and those scaps were behind me, if not healed,

364
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: closed at least, and like an alien just showing up.

365
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: Like I'm telling you, your reality change is in an instant.

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Speaker 1: It's very disorienting to think you know the world today

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Speaker 1: and receive a phone call and find out that humans

368
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: exist that don't fit with your story, blood relatives and

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00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: they're alive and they were and it's and that's the reality.

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Speaker 1: It's the difference between like the language, like when my

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Speaker 1: when I found out that my dad hadn't been my

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Speaker 1: biological father. I was describing it as something that happened

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Speaker 1: to me that I discovered that, you know, that I

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Speaker 1: wasn't who I thought I was, literally, and I realized

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Speaker 1: I had to change the language because it wasn't something

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Speaker 1: that happened to me. It had always been thus like

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00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: it it was me, and that, I think is part

378
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Speaker 1: of what's shocking and disorienting when you uncover a secret

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00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: that because it was the reality. You didn't know it

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00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: was the reality, but it was for a very long

381
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Speaker 1: time in your life. Yes, And I feel betrayed and

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00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: deceived because of it. And I never trusted people that

383
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 1: much like when I I. Most people give people trust

384
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: and then people can lose that I I don't distrust,

385
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: but I started out at zero. No one gets credit

386
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: in advance, and that was formed long before this phone call.

387
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: The phone call lets me to work where it came from,

388
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: even though it wasn't always conscious. We're going to pause

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00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: for a moment for a word from our sponsor. Frank

390
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: tells his wife the story because, as he puts it,

391
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: that's what couples and healthy relationships do. But he feels

392
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: sick about it, embarrassed, as if somehow this reflects poorly

393
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: on him, and then after sitting on it for about

394
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: a week, he calls his father. I said, this is

395
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: not okay, it's not He says, look, life is complicated,

396
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: and you know, all I could say is you you know,

397
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: you have needs, you take actions, you do something and

398
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: you think it's one thing and it turns into something else,

399
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you have this. And I said, yeah,

400
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: maybe for one kid, not too. Two is not an accident.

401
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: One is like, oh my god, what happened. Two is

402
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: a family you know, fool me once too unforgivable, unacceptable.

403
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: He's he's bullshitting me. He's he's selling me. You know.

404
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: They say, hey, man, you know you think it's one thing. No,

405
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: at some point you were in when you were when

406
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: you took that fucking video camera there to film your

407
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 1: son's you know what you were doing Owen, by that

408
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: point it was not unintentional or an accident. So don't

409
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: tell me that that crap. I mean, my my whole

410
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: life and career is about sussing out full of ship people.

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00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: And he's he's, you know, patient zero in in full

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00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: of shitness for me. So I'm imagining that that conversation

413
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: like doesn't particularly and with some kind of like great

414
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: closure for any anybody. No, it doesn't, and I'll tell

415
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: you how it ends. He says, Look, you know your mom.

416
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: I don't think you want you know, you should burden

417
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: her with this and it would be a lot for her.

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00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: And I realized, my mother, and I'm gonna say this intentionally,

419
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: may not know. He thinks she doesn't know. She may know,

420
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: she may have a video camera story in her head someplace,

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00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: or she may not want to know. And I said

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00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: to him, stop, I will talk with her about this

423
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: or not because of my relationship with her. Don't ask

424
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: me to do something or not do something, because I'm

425
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: more likely to do it to spite you. So stop

426
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: selling me. And here we arrive at the reason, or

427
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: at least part of the reason why Frank is using

428
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: a pseudonym for this episode. His mom, as far as

429
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: this part of the story goes, is innocent. Also his kids.

430
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to be the guy who suddenly doesn't

431
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: speak to his relatives the way his father did. He's

432
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: refusing to allow his father to turn him into a

433
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: version of himself who he hates and disrespects. So he

434
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: doesn't say a word to his mother or his kids.

435
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: Five years go by and Frank's daughter wants to go

436
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: to Florida to see her grandparents. There's a Pink Floyd

437
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: concert that Frank wants to see what's happening in Florida

438
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: at the same time, So he tells her, you know what,

439
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: I'll come with you for the weekend. We'll see them,

440
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: I'll go to the show. Then his dad catches wind

441
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: of it, and he says he wants to go to

442
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: the show too. He knows the venue, knows all the

443
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: guys there. At first, Frank recoils, but then I thought, again,

444
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: am I being that guy? You know? Again? I have

445
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: a reason why I can't see my father, and I

446
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: don't want to be him, you know, So I think

447
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: I'll give it. How how bad can it be? What

448
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: could go wrong? So, um, we go to this this concert,

449
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: and uh, it's fine. He knows the people at the

450
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: in the parking lot, he knows the ticket takers. Because

451
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: the guy who thinks he's antisocial is you know, the schmoozer.

452
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: He knows everyone. He's connected, and it's it's a it's

453
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: a real conflict between you know, how he describes himself

454
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: and how he acts. We go to the concert and uh,

455
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: there's an intermission and we decided to go and get

456
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: some walk around and go to the bathroom whatever. And

457
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: as we're walking up the steps to leave the arena,

458
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this is a you know, a client

459
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: of mine, some local guy for now, and that he knows.

460
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: He's like I. Guy was like, hey, how are you

461
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: doing man? And my fathers like, hey, how you doing

462
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: it is? Let me introduce you to my son. And

463
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: he introduces me, but not by my name, by the

464
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: half the older half brother's name, and he doesn't realize.

465
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: He doesn't and he just and the guy's like, hey, hey,

466
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: nice to meet you. And they just chit chat for

467
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: a minute or two, and I am stunned, like like

468
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: the arena got quiet, you know, like that device in

469
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: a movie where it's just you, like the camera zooms

470
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: in and all and everything fades to like a hush,

471
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: and you're like, like time stood still, and you're like

472
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: where do you go with that? And I thought another test,

473
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, And I said to myself, I really consciously

474
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: thought this, I'm not going to get freaked out by this.

475
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let this ruin this night for me.

476
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: I'm letting this one go, and he says goodbye. The

477
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: whole transactions like two minutes and we walk into the

478
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: arena and it's a really nice guy. I said, yeah,

479
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: and wrong son. He's like what I said, I'm Frank.

480
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: You introduced me by Southern aid and he turned red

481
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: and he looked bewildered. I've never seen maybe the only

482
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: other time I saw that face was on the video camera,

483
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: you know, when he was fumbled and grabbed confused, you know,

484
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: the two worlds all of a sudden overlapped matter and antimatter,

485
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: and he did and he looks so bad. I've never

486
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: seen that expression. I mean, did I don't think. I said, yeah,

487
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: you did, And anyway, let's go. Oh no, I mean,

488
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: I mean he's he's a great kid, and you know

489
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be I mean as it stops speaking about

490
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: it and don't mention it again, old man, And that's it.

491
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: And we walked away. Throughout our conversation, Frank's embarrassment that

492
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: this this is his family, this is his father, this

493
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: is where he comes from, is palpable. He so badly

494
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: doesn't want this to be his story. He got out,

495
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: he moved away, he built his own happy, successful life,

496
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: and then this new piece of information, shameful information, as

497
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: Frank experiences it, has crashed in like a meteor, and

498
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: he's now carrying around this story like his own secret.

499
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: Is this why he doesn't want to tell his kids

500
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: or talked to his mom about it? Embarrassment? Shame? First

501
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: of all, it's not my secret to tell her, it's his.

502
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: So on, that's that's my rationalization to get me off

503
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: the hook. Now that I know this piece of information

504
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: that I don't want to that, I don't feel I

505
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: should even be the one to tell her. And I

506
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: don't know that you'd want to hear it from me,

507
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't want to hurt her. She's the one

508
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: who never left, and she's the one who still lives

509
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: with this guy. I don't want to wait, the sleepwalker.

510
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: So Frank puts this whole story somewhere inside him, or

511
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: at least tries to file it away. He doesn't think

512
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: about these two half siblings of his. He doesn't want

513
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: to have anything to do with them. It's not their

514
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: fault that their father had two families. Intellectually Frank knows this,

515
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: but that doesn't matter, or at least it doesn't matter enough,

516
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: so he doesn't think about this all that much, to

517
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: the point where when he does one of those over

518
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: the counter DNA tests, it doesn't occur to him that

519
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: wait for it, guess who showed up in the database.

520
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: They think you're their half cousins or whatever. And my

521
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: kids are in there under my account, My sister is

522
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: in there and her son. I had to, uh, I

523
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: shut it all down. I stopped the sharing, I broke

524
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: the connection. I did other than quit the service. I

525
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: shut anything down that makes a connection or shares information

526
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: or shows names. I stopped sharing with any relatives or

527
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: anybody because again, you know, the virus and showed up again.

528
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Did it occur to you that that might happen or

529
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: did that not into your mind? I didn't think about it.

530
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. I never thought about it. So there's

531
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: this way. It strikes me that the way that you

532
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: have managed to metabolize this and kind of just move

533
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: on with your life is to just bring down. It's

534
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: something bigger than a curtain, and it's like the bring

535
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: down like a big thick concrete wall, like it doesn't exist.

536
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: It shouldn't have exist did, so therefore it's not going

537
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: to exist. So you would have been able to do

538
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: something like submit your DNA to a commercial testing site

539
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: and actually not think, hey, wait a minute, there's this

540
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: world genealogically out there that could be complicated. Yes, because

541
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: it's the same compartmentalizing when I went to college the

542
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: first time and came home and said, what this is

543
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: still happening? But of course it was. I mean, why

544
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: wouldn't it still be happening. So in a way that

545
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: compartmentalizing has served you well, I think so. All right,

546
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: So I have one more question. So you said before

547
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: you said this great thing, you said, I'm glad. I know.

548
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: I wish it didn't exist, but I'm glad. I know.

549
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: Why are you glad? You know? Well, because it's reality.

550
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Frank for trusting us with his

551
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: story today. Family Secrets is an I Heeart media production.

552
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer, Lowell Bolante is the

553
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 1: audio engineer, and Julie Douglas is the executive producer. If

554
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: you have a family secret you'd like to share with us,

555
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: you can get in touch at listener mail at Family

556
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: Secrets podcast dot com, and you can also find us

557
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Danny Writer, and Facebook at Family Secrets Pod,

558
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: and Twitter at fami Secrets Pod. For more about my book, Inheritance,

559
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: visit Danny Shapiro dot com. For more podcasts. For my

560
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

561
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,