1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and with a holiday season in full swing, 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about the night shift because I'm 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: a feeling that year round, well, I don't have a 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: feeling I know statistically year round that a lot of 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: people work the night shift, but especially during the holidays, 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: more of us might be picking up a graveyard shift, 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: perhaps as a temporary seasonal worker, or if you're in 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: more of a manufacturing or transportation kind of job, night 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: shift work probably picks up during this time. And this 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: is something that we don't talk about very much when 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: it comes to workplace issues. A lot of what we 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: talked about, especially in the podcast, we're focused on nine 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: to five jobs. Yeah, night jobs definitely present their own 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: specific benefits, but also challenges. And I was really interested 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: in the research that Kristen and I did as far 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: as how it affects women and what women have to 19 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: do with night work in particular, because right off the bat, 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: you might just think, well, how is this a women's issue? 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: How does you know? What do women have to do 22 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: with this? Like men work night night shifts too, and 23 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: that's absolutely true. But there are some very interesting parallels 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: between the decision to work a night shift, or the 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: fact that maybe you feel you have to, and your 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: perception of motherhood and what being a good mother is. 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: So first off, let's talk about how many people are 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: working the night shift, what kind of jobs they have, 29 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: and why they choose to work while a lot of 30 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: us are sleeping. UM. So the big conversation about night 31 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: shift really kicked off in two thousand four, UM, when 32 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that about a fifth 33 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: of full time workers, or fifteen million people in the 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: US work the night shift. And since then there's a 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: very good chance that that number has only grown, particularly 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: due to the global workplace and technology influencing things. UM. 37 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: But that two thousand four stat is the most recent 38 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: data that we have. Yeah, And and from that data, 39 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: looking at specifically numbers, between two thousand and one and 40 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: two thousand four, more men than women did work alternate shifts, 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: but the percentage of women certainly is growing. And from 42 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: that two thousand four data, about five of working women, 43 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: or just over three million, work the night shift. And 44 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: that's coming from the New York times, and of course 45 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: the numbers growing thanks to our global twenty four our 46 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: workplace and technology. Yeah, and this kind of work is 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: far likelier to be more blue collar work than white collars. 48 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: So the kinds of jobs most commonly associated with night 49 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: shift work include leisure and hospitality. Um, the very fact 50 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: that if you want a Taco Bell girld Stuff burrito 51 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: at one in the morning, you can get it because 52 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: someone is working the night shift. Mining apparently has a 53 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: lot of night shift work involved. Transportation, flight attendants listening 54 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: probably know this well, or pilots listening, warehousing jobs, the 55 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: arts and entertainment, the things that we go see after 56 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: we get off of our nine to five emergency care services. 57 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: So a lot of nurses will work the night shift. 58 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of research specifically on the health 59 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: impacts of night shift nursing. Also custodial UH jobs people 60 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: who come in and clean up our offices after relieve, 61 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: clean up our schools, and also protective services like police officers, firefighters, 62 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: and then there are the call centers. This is where 63 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: the global workplace and tech really intersects with this, and 64 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: in fact, there's an entire book about this out of 65 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: a researcher It's Stanford called working the night Shift, all 66 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: focused on how this has created an entirely new industry 67 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: for women in India with call center work. Yeah, but 68 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: it's it's such a broad topic with so much depth 69 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: because it's it's not just like, oh, well, all of 70 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: these women in India now have all of these jobs 71 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: available to them. It also a companies are really kind 72 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: of disturbing conversation about sexual violence and patriarchal cultures in 73 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: countries like India, where all of a sudden, women are 74 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: in the workplace and they're traveling to and from work 75 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: at night and all of the danger that they face there. Well, 76 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about this more in terms of gender 77 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: dynamics abroad and at home. I think it also intersects 78 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: a lot, this idea of women working through the night, 79 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: taking a graveyard shift, and how that uh intersects with 80 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: our domestic duties, particularly for moms. But before we go 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: any farther, Caroline, you are a former at least evening 82 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: shift worker. Yeah, I am. Right out of college. I 83 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: worked in a newspaper for four years and my typical 84 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: shift was four to midnight. Sometimes I work five to 85 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: one and having come just out of college. It was 86 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: actually kind of perfect because it meant that I did 87 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: not have to get up at six thirty in the 88 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: morning to shower and put on fancy clothes. I did 89 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: still have to wear business clothes, which doesn't make any sense. 90 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,119 Speaker 1: And Caroline is a very fancy dressed in the office 91 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: by the way, right it's usually you know, a ballgown, Yes, 92 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: a ballgown, lots of sequence. I'm wearing a feather boa 93 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: right now. Um, but yeah, I know it. It was 94 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: great when I first started. Um, it wasn't very hard 95 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: to transition into. But as you would expect, a lot 96 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: of challenges eventually crop up when you, oh, I don't know, 97 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: want to date someone. Because what accompanied my crazy hours 98 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: was also the fact that my weekend was in the 99 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: middle of the week, which just made relationships impossible. I 100 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: ended up dating a lot of bartenders. I won't get 101 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: into that history right now, but you do have issues 102 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: with feeling sort of out of mainstream society because you 103 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: totally realize, like, oh, wow, okay, society is built for 104 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: people who work eight to five, and I can go 105 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: grocery shopping at one o'clock in the morning and that's 106 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: great because no one's at Kroger. Or I can go 107 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: to the mall at you know noon and no one's there. 108 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: But you miss out on a lot, like I never 109 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: ever got to celebrate Christmas on the day of with 110 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: my family because of crazy and crazy night shift work. 111 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: So they wouldn't even let you off for Christmas. I 112 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: got Thanksgiving off. It was a either or situation. So 113 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: but there's some Scrooge business running running that paper. And 114 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: to be fair, Thanksgiving is a way more fun in 115 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: my family than Christmas is, owing to all of the 116 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: wine that pours liberally. But um, as an evening shift worker, 117 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: I still didn't face quite the difficulties that night shift 118 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: workers do people who work eleven and seven or twelve 119 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: to eight. Because when I went home it was dark. 120 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: You know, it made I would still wake up at 121 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: like ten thirty in the morning. I'd have time to 122 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: go to the gym and make lunch and take a shower, 123 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: go into work at four o'clock, get off work, it's dark, 124 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: you go to bed two hours after you get home. 125 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: It all makes perfect sense. Um. And I also was 126 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: working a white collar journalism office job, so I also had, 127 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, really great benefits and stuff like that, as 128 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: much as they can be great for a newspaper. But 129 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: um I my evening shift work was not quite in 130 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: the same league as a lot of the night shift 131 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: work that we'll be talking about. And significantly for our conversation, 132 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: you didn't have kids at the time. That's a huge 133 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: factor with night shift work. Um And in fact, this 134 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: is coming from a book written by Harriet Pressor, who's 135 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: a professor of sociology at the University of Maryland called 136 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: Living in seven Economy six of dual earner incomes who 137 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: have kids under five and earn less than fifty dollars 138 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: have at least one partner working a non standard schedule, 139 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: And that gets to a lot of the common reasons 140 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: for why people work the night shift, because not only 141 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: is it sometimes the nature of the job, such as 142 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, if you are a flight attendant, then you 143 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: have flights that leave and you have to be on them. 144 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: Um sometimes it might be more a product of not 145 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: finding another job with a more standard schedule, but there's 146 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,679 Speaker 1: also a shift work premium involved. A lot of times 147 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: night shift workers will make more hourly because it messes 148 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: up your life. Yeah, because you're working when everybody else 149 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: is slumbering. And then, of course another aspect that's tied 150 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: up with money a lot of the times, and also 151 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: just family is the whole issue of childcare. A lot 152 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: of times, if you work at night but your partner 153 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: works during the day, then you can kind of tag 154 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: team and trade off and you don't necessarily have to 155 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: pay all of that money that goes into daycare. And 156 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: some people just prefer it. They really enjoy working when 157 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: the you know, the workplace might be a little quieter. 158 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: They can go to the grocery store and no one 159 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: is there. Um, some people are just naturally night owls um. 160 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: But when it comes to women on the night shift, 161 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: it's really fascinating how much motherhood is a big focus. 162 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: And Harriet Pressor, that sociologist who wrote the book on 163 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: this growing night shift economy that we're living in, she said, quote, 164 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: women don't typically think of themselves as night workers, but 165 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: society has gotten used to women working in the day 166 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: is dual earners, and now working at night is less deviant. 167 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: Hence we're seeing growing numbers of women on the night shift. 168 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: Because it used to be more of a strictly male, 169 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: blue collar kind of thing. Yeah, and we mentioned childcare 170 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: a second ago. If you want to get into the 171 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: stats of that, twenty six percent of night shift workers 172 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: choose that line of work to make childcare easier. This 173 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: is coming from a Center for Work Life Law at 174 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: University of California and the Center for America Progress, and 175 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: they found that flexibility schedule wise saves a lot of 176 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: money on childcare, saves a lot of time commuting, and 177 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: you probably don't have to spend all that money on 178 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: like super corporate clothes or feather boas like Caroline, all 179 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: of my ball gowns and feather boas. Now, when it 180 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: comes to single moms, um, this was a statistic out 181 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: of h really in depth peace on women in night 182 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: shift work at Psychology Today. Forty per cent of single 183 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: moms of young children reported shift or weekend work. And 184 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: I was hoping to actually find more in depth uh 185 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: information and research on single motherhood and night shift work 186 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: because it is so much more common and it seems 187 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: even more challenging um to juggle both of those things. 188 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: But I have a feeling that for single moms, that 189 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: appeal of being at home when the kids come home 190 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: from school and working while they're asleep is definitely a 191 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: big draw, yeah, absolutely, and a knee it to ILTA. 192 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: Gary looked into this in her book Weaving, Work and Motherhood. 193 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: She actually interviewed a group of night shift moms about 194 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: their schedules and why they do it, and she found 195 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: that kind of across the board, working the night shift 196 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: allowed women to be quote the kind of mothers they 197 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: want to be. Essentially, that time at home when you 198 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: work the night shift reflects the same type of pattern 199 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: that stay at home moms have. And this whole thing 200 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: was cross cultural. She talked to all different types of 201 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: women from different backgrounds, and they were all working within 202 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: sort of this dominant cultural norm and ideal about motherhood. 203 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: That I might be sleep deprived, i might feel like 204 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm losing my mind because I'm working the night shift 205 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: and I'm working the day shift taking care of my children. 206 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: But at least I'm home and they see me and 207 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: I'm visible. That whole issue of visibility comes up again 208 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: and again well, and the importance of visibility in terms 209 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: of this domestic construct of home is where mom is. 210 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: And she writes that these women are quote denormalizing sleep 211 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: in order to absorb the contradictions of working away from home, 212 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: and you see that theme come up again and again. 213 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: And this is research that was happening in the mid nineties, 214 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: and you still see these same themes today of working 215 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: moms who might be forced to work the night shift 216 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: for economic reasons, which is often a big case, but 217 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: also moms working the night shift by choice, partially because 218 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: it's sort of it almost makes them even more super 219 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: moms because they're like, I can go out, I can 220 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: make the money, but I can also be here for 221 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: the kids. I can make their lunches, I can meet 222 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: them at the bus, I can do all of these things. Yeah. Well, 223 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: and um, Gary, when she's talking to these women, one 224 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: of the things that's emphasized so much, which I as 225 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: someone who's not a parent, you know, I was struggling 226 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: to understand. But a lot of these women were not 227 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: only you know, striving to be there for their kids. 228 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: I totally get that, but they were also actively downplaying 229 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: their employment to their children and the fact that they 230 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: even had jobs, which I wasn't. I didn't quite put 231 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: my finger on as as getting it. I mean, Gary 232 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: writes about how these women's labor force participation ends up 233 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: as a result being almost invisible. The fact that they're working. 234 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: Was She talked to one woman who was like, I 235 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: didn't even know that my grandmother worked for forty years 236 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: because when we went over to her house and she 237 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: was baking us cookies, it was just grandma and she 238 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: was home, she was always there. But this woman had 239 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: been working for decades and just you know, downplayed it. Well. 240 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: I think it goes to the point that only until recently, 241 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: quite recently, are we and still becoming more comfortable with 242 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: the idea of a full time, dedicated working mom. You know, 243 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: there's still that that conflicts sometimes of the stay at 244 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: home versus the working mom. And I don't want to 245 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: use the phrase mommy wars because it is the worst 246 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: and that's how people talk about it. Um. But there 247 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: was a study also in the journal Qualitative Sociology that 248 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: looked at night shift nurses and it found similar motivations. Um. 249 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: It concluded that night shift nurses really thought of themselves 250 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: as stay at home moms by limiting that public visibility. Again, Caroline, 251 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: it's they sort of work in secret almost. They're still 252 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: highly involved in their kids lives by a virtue of 253 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: the hours that they work, and it's sort of allows 254 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: them to straddle both worlds, which also to me sounds 255 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: incredibly exhausting. Yeah, you're spread super thin, and and it's 256 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: just interesting that, you know, these women by and large 257 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: are choosing to emphasize the visibility of motherhood over the 258 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: visibility of career, even though they are both. I mean, 259 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: they're obviously career women. They're they're working a job of 260 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: whatever kind, blue collar, white collar, whatever um, and they're 261 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: struggling to take care of their children. And speaking of 262 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: the more white collar and of the spectrum, there was 263 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: a piece on this in The New York Times by 264 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: journalists Jamie Rich talking about what she called a sophisticated 265 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: subculture of mothers, the new ladies of the Evening, And 266 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: this is really focused on kind of creative class of 267 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: writer's photographers, but also entrepreneurs and even stay at home 268 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: moms that she lumps into this taking on night shift 269 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: work basically to extend their work day. Or if you're 270 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: stay at home mom, after everybody goes to sleep, then 271 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: you stay up to take care of all the family business, 272 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: and but you still have time to make all the cupcakes. 273 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: There there are lots of mentions of walking kids to 274 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: school of making cupcakes, of p t A p t 275 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: O meetings, and but but this was framed in um 276 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: in a differ like less economically motivated kind of wakes 277 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: like they're they're fine, they're just choosing to do this too. Really, 278 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: I mean it kind of does fit again to pedal 279 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: an unfortunate phrases today, the whole having it all. Yeah, 280 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of women too. And I don't know, 281 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: I can't remember if Rich discuss this or not, but 282 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: the idea of like, oh, well, I chose this path 283 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: because it would help me get a leg up in 284 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: my career faster, I'd be able to accomplish things that 285 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: maybe I wouldn't be able to accomplish if I worked 286 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: during the day or whatever. And just just that general 287 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: theme of of choice that you know, I have a 288 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: supportive spouse or partner, and um, I'm in a career 289 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: where I make plenty of money. Um, and I can 290 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: accomplish all this stuff because I'm just I'm just choosing 291 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: to work at night versus the maybe the blue collar 292 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: work where a lot of women feel forced to accept 293 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: jobs like that. Yeah, and it's interesting to see how 294 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: this is going to play out. But that kind of 295 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: flex time is still distinct from actual shift work, where 296 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: you are going, you know, to your job to complete 297 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: a specific shift. And in the second half of the podcast, 298 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: we've got to talk about a lot of red flags 299 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: that have recently been raised about some of the potential 300 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: health risks and even maybe relationship downsides that come along 301 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: with work in the night shift. But let's talk about 302 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: some of the effects that these jobs actually have on 303 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: people's lives. For instance, the fact that, and this isn't 304 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: hard to imagine, a lot of relationships can end up 305 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: suffering when schedules get wonky. Yeah, sort of. The irony 306 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: of how motherhood is often a motivation for women working 307 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: the night shift. Many of them report that while they 308 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: feel like their mother in to the very best of 309 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: their abilities, they never see their husbands or their partners. Um. So, 310 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: there was, for instance, dated study from that found that 311 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: night shift couples have higher rates of divorce and it's 312 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: all because of minimizing a couple of times spent together 313 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: in favor of taking the night shift that favors the kids. Yeah, 314 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,479 Speaker 1: and you also lose friendships when you're on an opposite schedule. 315 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I I worked an evening shift and work 316 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: at night shift. But I mean, my my friend group 317 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: was my coworkers and uh, a woman who was my 318 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: hairstylist and became my best friend because she also had 319 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: a weird schedule and kept weird hours and we adored 320 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: each other and so that worked out. Um. But yeah, 321 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: you had fabulous air, dude. Dude. Um, But yeah, I 322 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's easy to see the fact that, like, 323 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: when you're working such a weird schedule, you're very limited 324 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: and who you can hang out with, especially if you're single. 325 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: That's why I ended up dating like the worst people 326 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: because my whole dating and friendship pool was was pretty limited. Caroline, 327 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: idea for a new eating app or night Owls for 328 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: a night owls? Yeah, I feel like that. Would you 329 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: call it after midnight they won't get shady at all? 330 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: Or maybe I wear my sunglasses at night. Nope, that's 331 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: too long. Okay. Sleep deformation, though understandably, can can tinker 332 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: with your mood because a lot of these women. One 333 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: thing we didn't mention is how for a lot of 334 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: these working moms they slept. They didn't come home from 335 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: their night shift and then sleep for eight hours. They 336 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: would come home, take a quick nap, wake up in 337 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: time to see the kids off sleep for maybe like 338 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 1: four hours, then be back up again to see them 339 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: when they came home. I mean, they were sleeping in 340 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: these short bursts, and so they accumulated this sleep debt, which, 341 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: as we all know, as anyone who's ever been exhausted 342 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: beyond belief knows, it can make you a little cranky. Yeah. Absolutely, 343 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: And so you're you're yelling at your kids, you're yelling 344 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: at your spouse. I mean, that doesn't exactly strengthen bonds, 345 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: and indeed it might not be so great for parenting. 346 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: There was a study of mothers working the night shift 347 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: that found the children of these ladies had elevated levels 348 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: of aggressive and anxious or depressed behavior. So it's it's 349 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: not like they're bad parents necessarily. Obviously they're doing their best. 350 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: They are probably working. Most likely they're working this shift 351 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: to benefit their family. But man, I mean, when I 352 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: get sleep deprived, I'm not exactly a pleasant person. No, 353 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: And then this visibility factor comes up again in a 354 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: different way than we talked about earlier, in terms of 355 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: visibility in the labor force, in visibility and motherhood speaking 356 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: to Psychology Today, Carol Lieberman, who's a psychiatrist at u 357 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: c l A's Neuropsychiatric Institute who has treated shift workers, said, 358 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: night shift workers begin to feel like second class citizens. 359 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: They begin to feel invisible for all of those different 360 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: reasons of just keeping the opposite schedule as everybody else. Yeah, 361 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: you absolutely feel like you're on the outside looking in, Like, oh, 362 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: how nice that everything is geared towards you people. It's 363 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: like being left handed, Caroline. Finally someone can understand my 364 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: polight exactly, but at a more basic level too. Though 365 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: night shift work can lead to more dangerous commutes, a 366 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: study out of OSHA found that car crashes account for 367 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: of work related deaths, and seven percent of those are 368 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: linked to drowsiness or falling asleep at the wheel, and 369 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: fatigue can also exacerbate driver and attention, speeding and running 370 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: off the road. So you really got to be careful 371 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: that you keep your sleep pattern on schedule if possible, 372 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: if you are working the night ship, to make sure 373 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: that you get to and from your place of work 374 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: safely for yourself and other people on the road exactly. 375 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: And part of that is your whole circadian rhythm and 376 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I generally had an understanding of this before 377 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: we did this research, but I didn't realize just how 378 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: just the severe effects that messing with your circadian rhythm 379 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: could have. Has a lot of sleep impacts. So of 380 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: course your circadian rhythm is basically like, oh, you get 381 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: up when it's light outside, and you get sleepy when 382 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: it's start outside, thanks melotonin. Well, so messing with your 383 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: circadian rhythm can lead to of course sleep loss, which 384 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: is even worse for single moms, and this feeling of 385 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: constant exhaustion. But more than that, it can increase your 386 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: risk for real actual health disorders, things like diabetes, obesity, 387 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: heart disease, breast cancer, ulcers, depression, and of course sleep issues. 388 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: There's a new study published in the Proceedings of the 389 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: National Academy of Sciences which found night shift workers use 390 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: up less energy carbohydrates and proteins and burn fewer calories 391 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: while sleeping, which puts them at an elevated obesity risk. 392 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: And this is just one of many study findings coming 393 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: out on the relationships between night shift work, and there's 394 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: even out something called shift work disorder, which represents a 395 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: constellation of a lot of these symptoms, a lot of 396 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: which are linked to sleep lost and less exposure to sunlight. 397 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: And also how working night shifts under artificial light tends 398 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: to tinker with our melanin production. And melanan is really 399 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: important because in women it regulates the pituitary and ovarian hormones, 400 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: including estrogen, and elevated estrogen levels are linked to higher 401 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: rates of cancer in women. They're blowing my mind, like, 402 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,239 Speaker 1: I had no idea. I had no idea that these 403 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: things were connected. Needs sun, Caroline, we do need sun. 404 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: And I recently, after after reading this, so, I recently 405 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: was guilted by my neighbors into bringing my plants inside 406 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: because it's like freaking freezing in Atlanta these days, unseasonably. 407 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: And uh, I was like, well, what am I gonna do? 408 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: I just have like regular lights. It's not like I 409 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: have magical vitamin D plant lights in my house. And 410 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: I was like, oh wait, but they may have hydroponic 411 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: hydroponics set up in your apartment for my spider plant. Uh. 412 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: So I went to home Depot and sure enough, they 413 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: do have plant lights that you can screw in a 414 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: regular bulb. So I got those plug him into two 415 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: different lamps in my kitchen plants are happy. But after 416 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: researching for this episode, I was like, maybe I should 417 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: spend more time in my kitchen with the full spectrum plant, Like, 418 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: do you light? Is it? Is it calming light? I mean, 419 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: I I it's who my kidding, It's totally psychostomatic. Is 420 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: it all the same? Is it kind of like a 421 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: dog whistle? Like it's it's pretty much invisible? Yeah, I 422 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: mean it's it's great light and the lights. The lights fine, 423 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: And when I put them in I felt happier. But 424 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: that could also just be that I felt like I'd 425 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: finally accomplished something on my to do list. But so 426 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: this whole cancer thing, I mean to get back into 427 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: this and get off my plants. I had no idea 428 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: that there was such a domino effect in terms of 429 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: things like melanie production knocking over all of these hormone 430 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: dominoes creating a greater risk for cancer. And so in 431 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: two thousand seven, the World Health Organization's Center for Research 432 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: on Cancer listed shift work as a possible carcinogen, and 433 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: on top of that, the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center 434 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: said that night shift working women were at a fort 435 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: increased risk of being diagnosed with early stage ovarian cancer. 436 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: And there has been a lot of media coverage on 437 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: links between shift work and elevated risk for breast cancer, 438 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: possibly due to low vitamin D levels from less sunlight 439 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: exposure for instance. Uh. There have been a lot of 440 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: studies on this, but there was one from two thousand 441 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: twelve from Denmark which found at higher risk, and Time 442 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: magazine reported that the effect was cumulative. Women who worked 443 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: at least three night shifts a week for six years 444 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: had twice the risk of breast cancer as those who 445 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: worked two night shifts a week, and men on the 446 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: night shift aren't immune from cancer risks as well. A 447 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve study found that men on the night 448 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: shift have a three times higher risk of being diagnosed 449 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,719 Speaker 1: with prostate cancer. And that's crazy, that's these are significant studies. 450 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: This isn't just like, oh, maybe you might want to know. 451 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: This is like, dude, stop working the night shift, or 452 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: I mean, the night shift is not going to go away. 453 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: It's only growing and growing and growing. So is it 454 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: going to be on employers too? I don't know. Create 455 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: facilities in such ways that it either mimics daylight or 456 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: builds in enough time off to where or compensates people. Certainly, 457 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: I hope they're giving them healthcare benefits, although I doubt 458 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: that that's the case since a lot of these workers 459 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: are hourly. So hey, universal healthcare coverage, there's a bonus. Um. 460 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's a it's a giant question mark. 461 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: I mean, the w h O declaring it as a 462 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: possible criscinogen. That's that's hardcore. That's pretty serious. I mean, 463 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: there has been research into very specific step that workers 464 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: can take to sort of reverse the whole um terrible 465 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: effects that night shift work can have on your circadian rhythms. 466 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: And this is coming from the American Psychological Association, but 467 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: those things include, on the worker's day off, going to 468 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: sleep as late as possible um, and on a work day, 469 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: the worker would be exposed to intermittent bright light. They 470 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: would wear sunglasses on the way home from the night shift, 471 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: and then go to sleep as early as possible. Therefore 472 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: trying to sort of even out the differences between your 473 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: days on and your days off, tricking your brain into thinking, oh, 474 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: it's this time of the day or at that time 475 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: of the day, exposing yourself to light to sort of 476 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: even out. And it did have a positive effect on 477 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: the circadian rhythm and on the hormones and everything, but 478 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: it's still like, oh, it's such a much greater burden. Well, 479 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: and how realistic is that for most working moms, in 480 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: particular on the night shift, especially single moms who are 481 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: trying to balance all of this stuff together. I mean, 482 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: and they're also additional just basic tips in terms of 483 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: limiting caffeine, sticking to a routine, if you take naps 484 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: no more than fifteen minutes otherwise it actually makes you 485 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: more tired, um, and catching up on sleep on your 486 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: days off. But again, I mean, if you have kids 487 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: in the picture, and especially if you don't have a 488 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: partner spouse in the home as well to pitch in, 489 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: then I mean, I can't imagine. I can't imagine juggling 490 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: all of this and and reading about these moms on 491 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: the night shift only hammered home to me how incredibly 492 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: devoted these women were to being the best moms that 493 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: they could possibly be, because I can't fathom that kind 494 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: of schedule on top of responsibility for little ones or 495 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: even bigger ones, anyone that is not me, even my dog, yeah, 496 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: my my sister in law. I don't know. What her 497 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: schedule is now, But she's an e OUR nurse and 498 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: forever she worked the seven pm to seven am shift. Um, 499 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: but I think she worked like only three or four 500 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: days a week because there were such long shifts. Yeah, 501 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: there was. There was an overnight pharmacist that we read 502 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: about who worked seven days on seven to seven I think, 503 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: and then seven days off. So I could see something 504 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: like that where you have a long, long enough time off. 505 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: I think this happens a lot too with like E 506 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: M T workers. You have enough time off to where 507 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: you can't actually catch up on your sleep. But I 508 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: just wonder, I mean, and I don't know, I just 509 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: wonder if that's better or worse. My mother is a 510 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: flight attendant who flies to Germany every month, and you 511 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: know that's enough to get your whole sleeping schedule out 512 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: of whack. And when she comes home, it's Mom, I 513 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: love you. She's not right for like a day or 514 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: two because she still has to she's getting reacclimated to 515 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: Eastern Standard time after being in Germany, and then a 516 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: week later she'll go out again and repeat the process. 517 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: And you know, while she hasn't had any of the 518 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: significant like specifically cancer effects that we've talked about here. 519 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's not good for you to 520 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: be messing with your sleep cycle so much. Right, So 521 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: then the question is, well, what do you do because 522 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: some people have to have these jobs. These jobs are 523 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: not going to go away. These jobs are very much needed, 524 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: especially in a global economy. So how are we going 525 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: to make sure that we keep night shift workers healthy? Well, 526 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: I think it needs to be recognized as the important 527 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,239 Speaker 1: health and life factor that it is. And and in 528 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: one of the sources we read, they talked to a 529 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: consultant who works for a company called us I think 530 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,239 Speaker 1: it's just called Circadian or something like that, where their 531 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: whole entire purpose is to help equip companies to become 532 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: part of the twenty four hour global workforce. And so, 533 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: in my limited opinion, I mean, it might take having 534 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: a company like that, or a group of consultants like 535 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: that go into these companies and be like, here's how 536 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: you have to treat your employees. Here's what you have 537 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: to give them or allow for them to do. Give 538 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: them these bright, special full spectrum lights. But I mean, 539 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: in reality, that's that's great. If you're in a call center, 540 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: if you are at a corporate job, if you're working 541 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: the night shift at a newspaper for instance. Um, but 542 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: how realistic is that if you are part of a 543 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: custodial staff, you know. I mean there's there's steps that 544 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: can be taken, for sure, but I think the big 545 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: first step is just to realize what a horrific health 546 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 1: effect that working the night shift can have. Yeah, And 547 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: I think it also is imperative that more visibility is 548 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: put on these workers because for you know, the majority 549 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: of us working daytime shifts jobs, they are they're invisible, 550 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: and we kind of take their services for granted in 551 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: many ways because we come back to the office after 552 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: you know, full night's sleep and look that someone took 553 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: the trash out, and we go to you know, we 554 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: go to dinner and look someone is cleaning our dishes. 555 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: We don't have to do that. So there's yeah, there's 556 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: there's a lot more attention that needs to be paid. 557 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: And and if anything, this these health findings are so 558 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: arresting that it's gotten a lot of media attention. So hopefully, um, 559 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: it will continue to get media attention. Well, I mean 560 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: I feel like it event ties into things we've talked 561 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: about on the podcast before and if you want to 562 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: go broader in terms of better flex hours and child 563 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: care options for families, because God, if you, no matter 564 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: what your job is, blue collar, white collar, whatever, if 565 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: you had super secure, affordable childcare, then maybe you wouldn't 566 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: have to work the graveyard shift, right or if you do. 567 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: There was one overnight daycare center that we read about 568 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: in all of the the articles that we read researching 569 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: for this podcast, just just one, just one, and that 570 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: wasn't and people were very uncomfortable even with the you know, 571 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: a lot of parents treated it as a last resort. 572 00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: They don't want to, you know, have other people watch 573 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: shame your kids while we sleep. And then when you 574 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: get off work, let's say it two in the morning, 575 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: you still have to go wake your kid up at 576 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: two i am and drag her home, you know, so 577 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: you're waking your kid up. So yeah, it's challenging, and 578 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: I have a feeling there are probably some night shift 579 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: workers listening. I know that we've heard from some night 580 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: shift folks before who listened to podcasts to get them 581 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: through that those quieter, darker hours. So first of all, 582 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: if you are working the night shift, this is our 583 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: shout out to you, and we also would love it 584 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: if you shouted us out. What is it like working 585 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: the night shift? What kind of job do you work, 586 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: why do you work it? And have you seamlessly integrated 587 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: it into the rest of your life or have you 588 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: experienced these kinds of health disruptions, schedule disruptions. Let us 589 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: know what it's like on the night shift. Mom Stuff 590 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: at how Stuffwork dot com is our email address. You 591 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and messages 592 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages to 593 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: share with you right now. So I've got a letter 594 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: here from Laura in our episode about whether cat calling 595 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: is harassment, and we have been getting so many letters 596 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: on this one. So Laura, right, I just finished listening 597 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: to your episode on cat calling on my drive to 598 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: work this morning. I'm a Midwestern transplant to a Southern 599 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: city and work as an engineer what at Senfield in 600 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: a manufacturing facility in a small southern town. As an 601 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: educated female Yankee, I often feel out of place. While 602 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: listening to the episode, I was thinking back on instances 603 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: when I may have been cat called. I couldn't think 604 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: of a single instance where I had been particularly rattled, 605 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: but definitely felt like strangers have told me to put 606 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: a smile on my face. But then, while walking back 607 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,919 Speaker 1: to my office from the manufacturing floor just a few 608 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: minutes ago, a male shop employee that I don't know 609 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: told me to quote smile. There's no need to look 610 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: so gloomy. Unfortunately, my instant reaction when people talk to 611 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: me is to usually smile, so I grinned immediately and 612 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 1: he looked please. After I'd processed what he had said, 613 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: I scowled and stalked off. I usually do my morning 614 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: rounds with a male engineer, but he wasn't able to 615 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: join me this morning, so I was by myself for 616 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 1: a change. We've walked past the same person nearly every morning, 617 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: and he's never made any inappropriate remarks when I was 618 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: with someone else. Do you have any suggestions for how 619 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: I should have better handled the situation. A major part 620 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: of my job is to improve communication and trust between 621 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: the engineering department and the manufacturing floor, so I've always 622 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 1: tried to be very neutral in my exchanges with everyone 623 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: at work. This was not an instance that I felt unsafe, 624 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: just annoyed. I don't think it would be worth the 625 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: confrontation to go back to the employee and tell him 626 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: he was out of a line. But I definitely want 627 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: to be prepared the next time. So that's a great question, 628 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the whole smile thing, because 629 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: it seems so benign and yet as someone, I mean, 630 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: I I can relate. I've been told to smile and 631 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: it was the last thing I wanted to do at 632 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: that moment. It was infuriating. But if you're in a 633 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: management position, and especially if you why you know, you 634 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: have a communications kind of role, what do you do? 635 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: He said, smile? There's no need to look so gloomy. 636 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: Maybe she could have just said I'm not gloomy. I'm 637 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: just doing my job and then smile, yeah, Or I'll smile. 638 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: Keep doing your job and I'll smile or something. Keep 639 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: doing a great job and I'll smile. Yeah, I'll smile 640 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: when you keep doing your job. Yeah. I think it is, 641 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: especially in a situation like this in the workplace, and 642 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: especially being in a management position, it might be one 643 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: of those sort of what is it catch a fly 644 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: with honey, That's not how the clichet goes, But you 645 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, I don't I think you're right. 646 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if you turned around and tried to confront 647 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,439 Speaker 1: him about it, probably not a good idea, but but yeah, 648 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: keeping the focus on the work instead of maybe calling 649 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: someone out for their inappropriate I mean, obviously there are 650 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: different types of inappropriate behavior, but in this instance, I 651 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: think keeping the focus on just the work and saying 652 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: something to the effect of, um, I'll smile when you 653 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: get the job done. Yeah, and maybe you can even 654 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: said to in in response to smile, there's no need 655 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: to look so gloomy. Could have said, well, there's no 656 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: no need for you to worry about my facial expressions. 657 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: And I think that's a great one. Yeah. So hope 658 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: that helps Laura, and keep doing what you do. And lady, Okay, 659 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Cliff, who just recently 660 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: started listening to our podcast. Kristen Hey Cliff, and Cliff says, 661 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: as I do the mundane computer processing that my job requires, 662 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: I find the listening to your podcast makes my day 663 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: go faster and once in a while I actually learned something. 664 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: One other thing. I am male. This wouldn't normally mean much, 665 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: but to understand what follows, it probably helps to know 666 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: this recently, I was listening to your podcast. Is cat 667 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: calling harassment at work? I was interrupted by my team 668 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: leader with an unrelated question, and after I answered her question, 669 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: the conversation continued. I mentioned what I was listening to, 670 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: and then I found it really interesting. Seems I'm always 671 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: promoting the podcast nowadays. Her reply stunned me when she said, oh, 672 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 1: people complaining about that again. I asked her what she meant, 673 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: and she said, those guys are only complimenting the girls, 674 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: and these women should lighten up. I proceeded to offer 675 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: some of the examples your podcast presented, such as the 676 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: two thousand five event you sided where a man was 677 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: masturbating on the street in front of the woman he 678 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: was harassing. She said, that was, of course wrong, and 679 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: he deserved whatever punishment he ultimately received, but that was 680 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: certainly a rare case. Most men who do the cat 681 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: calling are only trying to give the girls a compliment, 682 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: she said, I let the subject drop at this point. 683 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: I bring this up because it is evidence to me 684 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: that this isn't just men who need to be made 685 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: aware of how this harassment demeans the victim. There are 686 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 1: a lot of women who just seemed to not get it. 687 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 1: Either nuff said, keep up the good work because I'll 688 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: be listening. So thank you, Cliff. I hate your story, 689 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 1: but I I really appreciate you you sending it to us. Yeah, 690 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: and I absolutely agree that this is not just an 691 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: issue of educating men. It's an issue of educating everybody. 692 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: And that's usually the case with most of the socio 693 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: cultural gender topics that we talk about, where it's it's 694 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: not just women pointing a finger outside. We gotta preached 695 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: our own choir as well. So keep the letters coming, everybody. 696 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff Works dot com is our 697 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 1: email address and to find links all of our social 698 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, 699 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: including this one. There's one place to go, and it's 700 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com For more on 701 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff 702 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: Works dot com