WEBVTT - JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon Talks Bond Market, Inflation 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:07.000 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:09.200 All right, we're wasting no time. 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.440 Let's get straight to our exclusive conversation with Jamie Diamond 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.680 Shaman and CEO of JP Mantt and Chase Jimmy cand 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:17.320 Have you with us, and thanks for having us here. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:18.200 Happy to be here. 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.600 The bond market is front and center. We're seeing yields 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.959 at the highest levels in decades. Yet we see the 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.520 stock market keeps rallying in factice again in the money today. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:29.920 Should we be notice or not? 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.479 Well, I think it's always reasonable in the investment world 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.320 to be nervous a little bit because you've mentioned the opening. 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.640 There's a lot of geopolitical risk. You have a bunch 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:40.839 of wars going on, which I hope are properly resolved. 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:43.800 You have bond rags going up. Inflation is a little 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.519 bit higher than people thought. So yeah, but I'm not surprised. 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.000 I think when people say you should be surprised bond 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.720 raigs can go up, the notion that somehow people said 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.000 they'll never go up is the wrong notion. And so 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.000 companies like us prepare for higher rates, lower rates, and 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.279 you know, figure those things can happen. So the thing is. 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:03.920 There at the highest level in decades. I mean that 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.000 is where the surprise could be. 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:08.919 I think they could be much higher they are today. 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:11.080 Oh yeah, And you know you say decades, but we've 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.920 had like one of the greatest bullmark other than brief COVID. 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.480 You know, since the Great Financial Crisis, we've had a 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.800 huge bull market, huge uh lower rates for the most 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.400 part for a long period of time. But the world changes, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.120 you know, like we may have gone from a savings 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.200 glut to a to not enough savings, you know, and 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.080 you know the AI investments you come about in America 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.640 loan four and fifty billion last year, seven and fifty 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.440 this year, a trillion next year. Global deficits that are 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.160 all time highs and they are huge. So the government's 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.000 including ours, has to borrow huge sums of money more 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.120 next year than this year. So you know, people who 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:47.920 owned bonds, they tend to look at these things and 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.080 both inflation and you know, demands for capital can push 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:51.600 up rates. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.920 The thing is, it's not just an inflation story right now, 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:59.600 it's also I guess credibility story, right I mean, we 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:04.160 we have off an environment where everybody's trying to pay 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.800 debt and governments around the world have so much debt 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:08.200 at a higher level. 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.480 I mean, at some point it's going to hit. 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.560 Yeah, it is going to head. Like the US government 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.160 debt is thirty trillion. The average rate is three and 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.760 a half percent, you know, so even today they can't 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.760 possibly refinite it, finance it at lower than that rate. 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.600 They have another two trillion dollars to do this year. 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.600 So yeah, But the thing is, we don't know when 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.160 we don't know when the world gets too scared about that, 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.679 when inflation makes it, where people don't want own long 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.880 term duration securities, and where it's just a demand for capital. 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.280 There have been examples in history where there's so much 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.560 demand for capital rates are going up. But it's very 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:47.120 good reason people are making productive investments in the world. 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:50.840 Government spending is often not that government spending is much 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:55.360 more consumptual later, which doesn't help future productivity. So all 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.280 that spending too drives corepate profits, so people should be 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.760 that surprised that core profits are doing quite well too, 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:02.560 which helps obviously the stock market. 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.880 The question, I guess, if I could get you to 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.959 live in the crystal ball right at what yield would 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:14.560 that be spillover to the economy, to policy, to markets. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.120 Yeah, so I'm very questions about crystal balls, because I 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.679 don't think anyone has a crystal ball. We look at 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:24.040 all potential possible outcomes, and you'd be surprised from recessions 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.679 with inflation, from recession with no inflation, from your home 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.160 price is down forty percent, of stock right down forty percent. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.840 It's a wide range of outcome. I think when people 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.400 think this is our forecast, that that's what's going to happen, 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.320 I think that's an intellectual error. I think you should 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.800 be much more thinking about range of outcomes, possibilities, probabilities, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.640 and for us, we want to handle all of them 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:45.840 so we can serve our clients. So I'm not that 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.200 worried about, you know, our profits going down in the 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.040 stock going That doesn't worry me at all. I want 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.000 to serve our clients and do a good job. And 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.080 I do worry about the geopolitics for the future of mankind. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.480 That's a far more important issue in my mind. But 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.800 just looking forward, I think it's a pretty my own 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:03.800 view and it's just different than other people. Is that 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:06.800 race can easily go up more and credits, breads can 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:07.320 go up more. 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.960 I know everything's going to be okay even with the 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:10.440 rates going on. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:11.760 No, at one point you can have a lot of 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.320 people who have to refight higher rates. So there's this 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.040 general assumption that, oh, I can refi all this debt 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.200 at roughly the similar rate. Well, if credit breads go up, people, 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.240 companies and governments will have to pay more, and so 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.240 that can put stress in the system and easily could 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.640 cause a recession type of thing. Again, I'm not terrified 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.760 at recession other than you know, hurst people will get 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.000 laid off. But I think as a scenario that's a 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:34.159 very possible scenario. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.279 There are risks people have cult time on the credit market. 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.880 If heels continue to rise, there'll be a lot more 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.120 pressure on the credit market. How might that play out. 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.039 Oh, a lot of companies are levers. There's you know, 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.240 there's five six trillion dollars of levers loans out there. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:51.640 They're gonna have a hard time refine at those rates. 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:54.640 The equity values will be considerably less. Some will be 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:56.839 prepared for it, some hedge for it. A lot of 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.360 people didn't hedge for it, so which means that people 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.159 don't think about But that means to take an interest 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.880 rate risk, you know, and that they should be very 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.680 cost to take interest rate risk. And so as you said, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.719 this could put pressure on the system high yield. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.520 That's been so much demand for it, never mind that 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:13.640 inflation is sticky. 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:15.039 Is this worrying or not? 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.000 Well, you mentioned at the top there's a little bit 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.360 of exuberance in the marketplace. Personally, I'm not a buyer 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.720 of credit spreads. I am not that instruy what other 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.360 people do. I would not buy credit spreads at these levels, 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:29.640 and you know other people have other views. But a 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.520 lot of people out there, remember they have passive, passive 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.040 funds buy it. You know, people have to meet indexes. 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.240 A lot of reasons people have to buy, and they're 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:38.600 just trying to create a little bit of outfit for 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:42.159 themselves as opposed to would you go absolutely long credit 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.480 spreads or not? So I would have a luxury saying 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.560 we don't have to enough. Of course, we're in the business, 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.560 so we continue to make loans that I think may 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.680 be more stressed than people think. But that's part of 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.280 a long term strategy. That's not because I like it 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:55.200 at this price. 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.080 But the thing is so much demand. What's behind that demand? 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.159 Is it that complacency? 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.680 I suppose yes, But demand changes. You know, people forget sentiment. 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.600 If you look at you know what happened before the 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.039 crash of seventy three, the crash of eighty two, or 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.520 the bond market in ninety four, the crash of two 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.880 thousand or eight. That was all true. And then things change, 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.800 and even the things change about when people talk about liquidity, Well, 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.200 what happens when things get tough is sentiment changes and 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.800 people want more cash. And you know, so the liquidity 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:29.920 requirements change, money supply changes, central banks change, banks pull 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.600 back and that all can you know, pull liquidity of 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.920 the market precise the wrong time and when people need 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.760 cash they sell risky assets. So you might predict that 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:39.520 all we have no but I wouldn't be surprised if 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:40.040 that happens. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.440 It's not just about markets, it's about AI. It's about tech. 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:45.520 I mean, you know, jefpy Morgan has come up to 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.120 say it is actually a tech company that just happens 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.520 to be a bank. You have a huge tech budget. 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.359 I think nine billion dollars three billion for twenty million, 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.800 and then I think three billion for cybersecurity. Talk to 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:00.400 us about how you're mobilizing the capital a party. 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.279 So we don't actually deploy capital by saying we'll put 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.200 capital there. We and everywhere we do in every business 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.839 we grow in China like here, if you look at 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.080 just China, we've gone from banking ten companies to banking 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.600 I think it's two or three hundred. We've gone from 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:18.480 banking thirty multinationals coming here to banking six hundred multinationals 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.280 coming here. And as we serve them, it deploys capital. 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:23.880 So the deployment of capital, deployment loans are an outcome 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.480 of building the business. That's true for every country. It's 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.920 true we open branches in the United States, it starts 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:30.960 to demand capital as people will give us deposits, we 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.880 start to make loans. So we are pretty Comforanty. We 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:38.040 get deploy capital intelligently serving clients. We don't deploy capital 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:39.760 like an investor saying, oh, this is the best place 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:41.960 to put it. It's kind of an outcome of how 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:43.720 we kind of grow with the business. 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.000 And always us ay I though, I mean how are invested? 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:49.080 Absolutely AI, if you would any business meaning we have 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.800 and we've been doing it for thirteen years, and every 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:53.680 business meaning you have, we talk about how you can 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.120 use technology do better job for your clients. What are 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:01.040 the projects you have? So we're using AI for risk fraud, marketing, design, 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:07.040 document management, who you should call in the morning, salesforce 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.320 type things, branch location, hedging, and it's a tip of 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.440 the iceberg. You know, it's moving very very quick coding, 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:16.960 it's moving very quickly. So we want to just stay 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.680 up there and use AI to serve our clients. And 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:21.680 we're going to do that. How can I do a 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.640 better job for our clients using a technologic called AI, 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.640 just like we did it with a technology called digital, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.440 a technology called cloud, and way back at technology called mainframe. 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.160 Like it's no different. We got to do a better 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:35.760 job for a client because that's how we compete. 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.360 So how will Jimmy Malgan look like in three to 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.079 five years and on the back of developments in AI? 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:41.800 How will what? 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.000 How will Jimmymugan look like? I mean, how will are 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:44.439 your business? 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.600 I hope with thriving? But what's not going to change? 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.920 People would have to hold money, movement and invest money, 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.200 raise money. I think how it happens? Will I change? 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.480 You know, we use blockshain. There may be more blockshain 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:57.640 being used to do that. There may be more people 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.840 in AI jobs and less people in certain jobs, you know, 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:02.960 so it'll all morph. But that's our job to serve 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.360 the client. And of course, you know, I always point 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:07.240 out that we in the old days, we had you know, 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.000 the big banks were big competitors and the investment banks 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.480 and that was global, different banks in every country. Now 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.360 it's fintech in every country, and they're good. You know, 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.960 a lot of these people in Revolute Stripe and Citadel, 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:19.920 they're quite good. So we have to compete with all 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.839 and a lot of that competition will be technology and AI. 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.800 So we are investing that money to be competitive to 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:27.800 do a better job for our clients. And if we're 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:29.160 not fast and nimble, we'll lose. 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:31.680 And you're false and nimble, right. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.320 Sometimes we're faster and nimbal Sometimes I feel like we're 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.960 I feel like we're a dinosaur and elephant riding a bronco. 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:39.720 It is about menpower. 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.280 In the end, we've had the license power menpa, women power. 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:45.359 It's about the workforce. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.080 We had from Sena Chanta shedding about eight thousand jobs 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.400 of a spread of three years. We also had metas 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.319 saying it's shutting the same number of people. I mean, 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.000 how are you looking at manpower, women power? How are 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.480 you looking at the workforce on the back of you know, 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.080 advance is being made an effort. 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:03.360 The most important thing is we do a good job 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.200 for our clients and use AI. Will it change the 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:07.400 structured jobs? Yes? 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:08.360 Will? 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.200 I think there's been very few announcements are AI related. 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.199 I think a lot of coming to too much bureaucracy, 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.559 and they may use AI to cover up the fact 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.319 that they should never hire those in the first place. 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.120 But AI is going to change jobs, I don't know. 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.600 I think we'll overdo some of our jobs down the road. 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:24.960 I don't think you'll be all different types of jobs, 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.080 and you have to deploy it at a level like 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.160 I think we'll be hiring more AI people and probably 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:34.160 less bankers in certain categories, and it'll make them more productive. 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:35.440 So when you get up in the morning and you 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.720 want to interview someone, it'll lay out what I've said 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.640 in fourteen different places. They'll give you questions. Your job 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.920 will be the same, you'll just be much smarter how 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.880 you execute that job. So, but we will retrain and 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.240 redeploy people. You know, we have ten percent attriction a year, 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.120 which means our headcamp's going down twenty five thirty thousand 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.480 a year, and we are We're gonna be prepared to say, Okay, 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.720 we love these people, they're great, We're gonna take care 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.840 of them. We're going to give them reskilling, new skills, 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.840 better jobs, move them somewhere else, maybe early retirement, and 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.800 then I think society maybe need to do a little 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.079 bit of that, get prepared. In my view, that's got 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.960 to take place locally. So some jobs are across a nation, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.319 like AI and cyber and maintaining certain types of equipment 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.959 and cars. Other jobs are very specialized. You know, this 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.520 is a mining town, and that's a car manufacturing town, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.960 and that's a chemical town. And so the local schools 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.680 and that's I mean high schools, community colleges, and colleges 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.360 should work with the local businesses say I'm going to 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.960 give these kids certificates in the twelve weeks or one 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.520 year of training they need to have that job. There 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.000 are going to be eight million trade jobs which pay 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.160 one hundred thousand dollars a year available in the United 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.760 States in the next five years. So we're not helpless. 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:47.400 We just have to get prepared, kind of have a plan. 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.600 The plan is if it happens too quick, it may not, 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.200 but I might view whatever you think there might be 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.600 a risk, prepare for and if it doesn't happen, so 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.280 be it used to. Most of the stuff you did 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:58.800 in preparation you should have done anyway. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:11:59.800 I just want to be clear. 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.320 So yours is basically about natural attrition. You're not looking 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.120 to n downsides because of the efficiencies of an E 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:06.880 that's going to happen. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.520 It will cause that, but you know that's that happens, 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:11.840 and that's been having my whole life. I mean, if 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.800 you look at all our jobs, they've always been changing 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.600 how you do jobs. But we will do it to 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.360 do a better job for clients. And yes, it will 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.280 do some jobs. We know that. I can't tell you 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.120 specifically what because you know it's kind of at the 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:28.520 early stages. It is every app every process, every job 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.640 will be affected, some will be more productive, some will 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.360 be not enough jobs and then will help our people 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:35.440 have a good career. 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.600 Jimmie, there's been a lot of backlash on social from 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:43.120 what stunshot CEO The Winters said. He talked about how 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.240 you know AI will wipe out the lower value human capital. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.439 And a lot of people took issue with how clinical 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.960 and how cold and how perhaps insensitive that was. 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:54.760 Can you weigh on that? 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.679 I mean, Builds a friend of mine, and all of 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.320 us say something incorrectly, He's already come back into you know, 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.640 taking that back. It was an artful way to say something. 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.240 But I also think it'll be old jobs. I don't 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.880 think it would be higher level, lower level. I think 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.440 it'll be more than you think. But it will also 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.160 create some jobs, so you know, in some ways of 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.199 you if you know, back office jobs disappear, we need 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:22.439 more front office jobs to cover more clients. So so look, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.199 you get a lot of noise from this ice O, 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.480 the backlash and data centers and AI. I do think 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.120 it's incumbent about us society to think through if it 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.360 happens too fast, what do we do about it. You 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.920 aren't going to stop at all, you know, and you 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.920 can talk all you want, do the work, get prepared, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.840 take care of your people, take care of society, and 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:42.800 I think we'll be okay. 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.240 We hear that you'll be speaking to New York mayor, 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.280 Ma'm donnie along with David Solomon of course we know 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.280 he wants to increase taxes for the wealthy in the city. 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.280 What's the message you're sending him. What will be your 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:56.079 conversation with you? 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.280 No, I did be with him, and I told him, 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:01.480 you know exactly all of the great things that Jap 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.360 Morgan does, the employees, the taxes, the philanthropy, the biggest 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.839 in New York, the biggest fofordable lender, how we take 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:10.720 care of our people, how they all get medical or 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.800 minimum wage of twenty five, just so he understand, and 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.400 that a lot of what we do in New York 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.079 is exported around the world, so it's a huge export 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.440 for the United States, a competitive avantage for the city, 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.440 any competitive avantage for the United States of America. And 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.160 there were good citizens and we always have been known. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.000 And we talked about affordable housing and childcare, which are 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.000 his two things. Well, of course, you know, anyone I 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.400 know thinks we should do more affordable housing. But I 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.960 told him it's a smart policy that gets that. You 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.680 can say it all you want, but if you watch governments, 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.680 they do some things that have the absolute opposite effect 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.840 what they say. And I can go through exacts. The 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:47.320 same for childcare it's got to be then right, it's 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.040 got to be effectively, it's got to be place based, 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.520 it's got to work, it's got to be thoughtful and 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.360 stuff like that. Every city. But he had read my 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.760 chairman's letter and we went through that every city. He 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.120 has to compete, and they have to compete at every 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.120 level arts, science schools. That is what it is. I'm 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.920 not inventing that he can be an id logue. He 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.400 has to compete too, And we'll see will he learn 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.040 that he's got to make the city a place where 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:12.880 people want to grow and build and live and have 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.960 families and work. And he's got to compete with Shanghai 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.760 and Hong Kong and Singapore and Nashville. And people vote 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:23.680 with their feet. So it isn't this morality thing that 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.040 people talk about. It's like, are you building a great 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:27.960 city of lower crime and stuff like that. Howls. I 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:29.440 want to point it out that I did mention to 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.640 him because it's important to me that I am against 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:36.960 racism of all types, including anti Muslim racism, anti Jewish racism, 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.440 which I considered anti semitism, anti Jewish, and I think 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.800 Israel has a right to have a state. So I 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.880 think there's a little confusion between anti Semitism. So you 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:48.960 may not like what a country's doing. I don't like 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.640 what i Ran is doing. It doesn't make me anti Muslim, 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:52.920 and so I think we have to be a little 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.120 careful of this. But why, I want to be absolutely clear. 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.440 And he acknowledged it, and he said, I think he 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:58.160 kind of agrees. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:00.920 I want to go back to the Texas that she 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.640 wants to impose. At what point do you think those 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.200 taxes will make New York less competitive? At what point 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.360 do you think you know there'll be an erosion of 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:10.680 talent within the city. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.160 I think it's already doing that, you know. And my 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.160 letter I pointed out that these are just numbers. JP 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.040 Morgan when I got there, had thirty five thousand employees 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.280 in New York City and now it's twenty six thousand. 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.920 We had twelve thousand in Texas and now it's thirty 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:32.160 three thousand. That is because of individual taxes, corporate taxes, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.360 state taxes, but also the schools in Dallas. They've become 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.240 very good. The life in Dallas. You know, the Dallas 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:41.840 mayor calls up all the time saying what can I 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:43.800 do to help you out. I have land over here, 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.680 I have you know, And that is pro business and 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.400 pro people love living there. And that's what New York City. 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.720 New York's a wonderful place too. But that is a 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:53.600 result when I grew up in New York City. And 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.400 this is an amazing number. In the seventies they had 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.560 one hundred and twenty of the fortune, five hundred were 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.400 in New York City in those ten years. Are about 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.240 those ten years, sixty left or failed or immerged out, 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.080 mostly because of things like taxes and crime and stuff 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.359 like that. And those are big names like ge Ibm, 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.720 American Airlines, you know, and and is that what you want? 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.520 You know? And that's what it sees people even want. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.960 They think that somehow being anti business is going to 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.280 help the city. It's not. So we all want to 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.800 pay fair taxes. Not that's not the point. But at 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:26.760 one point people vote with their feet. And there are 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:28.760 a lot of studies that have shown that all these 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.760 people moved out, and they they're obviously the tax obviously 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:33.639 in New York booming, so you're not gonna see it 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:35.960 this year's taxes, but a lot of people are paying 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.280 billions dollar taxes left. Why do you want that? How 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.920 does that help the lower paid person in New York? 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:44.879 Just one final question before we let you go. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.000 I also want to hear these people talk. But they 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.359 say fair taxes, fair share, what do they mean? Like, 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.080 I agree with the fact that, you know, if up 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.240 to me, I saw Jeff Bezos, who I love, schmash buckling, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.679 you know, fight, I don't think the lower people make 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:00.400 it under certain amount have been a tax at all, 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.159 you know, I would agree with that. But when they 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.480