1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. 2 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: It seems like everybody went somewhere over Christmas, whether it 3 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: was home to Arkansas, out to California, to New England, 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 2: down south. 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: Some people even go surfing in Nicaragua. 6 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: I heard that they go all over the place for 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Christmas holidays. 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 2: But this is a trip I don't think the relatives 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: will ever forget because when they arrive there near San Diego, California, 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: to visit, they find their female relative in the freezer. 12 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: That's right, you heard me in the freezer. And if 13 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 2: you have any question to that, which I'm sure you 14 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: don't because you're all legal eagles, Yes she's dead. 15 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I see, Grace. This is Crime Stories. 16 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories 17 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: and on serious xem one. Eleven dead in the freezer. 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: You know how hard I had to look to find 19 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: a medical examiner that has a special expertise in people 20 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 2: that have been stored in the freezer or died in 21 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: the freezer. That's something you don't see every day, but 22 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 2: upon further research, I learned that it's more often than 23 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: we think. So how did this woman end up in 24 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: the fraser? Why has the medical examiner released a cause 25 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: of death. What do they think she crawled in there 26 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: and committed suicide by freezer? 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: I don't think so. 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: But again, it ain't the first time, and I doubt 29 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: it will be the last. But let's start at the beginning. 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friends at crimeonline dot com. 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 4: It was a family trip to visit relatives in the 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 4: Allied Garden section of San Diego. The out of towners 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 4: arrived just two days before Christmas. Surprisingly, the visitors aren't 34 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 4: greeted as expected by their loved one as they arrive 35 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 4: at the Zion Avenue home. As a travelers settle inside, 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 4: they check everywhere in the three bedroom, thirteen hundred square 37 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 4: foot home that's valued at nine hundred thousand dollars. No 38 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 4: one is home. 39 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: What in the world This is not a cheap neighborhood 40 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: nine hundred thousand dollars. Now, this is near San Diego, California. 41 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: You know, I've got an all star panel. But first, 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: I think I need to go to my longtime friend 43 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: and colleague, my partner in crime. Quite often, although usually 44 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: were on different sides of the fence. Daniel Horowitz is 45 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: joining me. Renowned lawyer, legal commentator and you can find 46 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 2: him at Lawyer in Lafayette dot com. Now that's new, 47 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: Daniel Horowitz. What is Lawyers in Lafayette. 48 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 5: Well, it's where I live, and it's just my local community. 49 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 5: So I stopped being so national. I just want to 50 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 5: stay close to home. I'm getting old, Nancy. 51 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: You preaching to the choir and you're not getting old. 52 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: Okay, you can't say that because that would reflect on 53 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: my age. 54 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: So let's go forward with this, Daniel Horowitz. 55 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: It seems like everyone of the twins friends were going 56 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 2: somewhere for Christmas, either on Christmas or right after Christmas. 57 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: Now, the biggest scandal ever in. 58 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: The Grace family was when my uncle showed up at 59 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: the Grace home place in Oldthorpe, Georgia, and instead of 60 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: eating Mama Grace's meal, and it's a meal, Daniel Horwitz, 61 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: she would have fresh oysters and shrimp brought up from 62 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: the Panhandle. I don't mean brought up, I mean family 63 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: and relatives in the Panhandle would catch it, put it 64 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 2: on ice, and bring it up in the back of 65 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: the pickup truck. 66 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: Roast, beef, chicken, you name it, a. 67 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: Whole table of vegetables from their farm, and she would 68 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: make those cakes and I didn't understand how they made them, 69 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: but the cakes with like. 70 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: Eleven and twelve layerstackcake. 71 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: Yes, Jackie should have a chocolate cake, should have a 72 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: pineapple cake, should have something with the white carrot cake, 73 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 2: and my favorite caramel cake. She'd make all that. That said, 74 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: my uncle Varney, who both of the grandparents always referred 75 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 2: to as Brown, showed up having stopped for a Hamburger before. 76 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: He got to the big lunch. 77 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: Well, all h double l broke loose, and various family 78 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: members scratched off off. 79 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: And left the party. 80 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: That's the biggest scandal at Christmas time in our family. So, 81 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: Daniel Horowitz, this family travels from out of town to 82 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: visit nobody's home and they find the victim in the freezer. 83 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: Do you have any reason, in all your years of 84 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 2: trial experience, why a COEOD cause of death would not 85 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: be released as of right now? 86 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 5: Now this is a very peculiar case. First of all, 87 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 5: did they call the day before and say were coming over? 88 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: Man, you do like the details, don't you? Okay, go ahead? 89 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well they said come on over and when you 90 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 5: get here, if we're not around, go open the freezer. 91 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 5: And see what's there. It's peculiar to go to a house, 92 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 5: have no one there and go through the freezer. If 93 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 5: you go to the refrigerator, you sit around, you go 94 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 5: out to make finalds do something. But going through the 95 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 5: house and opening a freezer is bizarre. 96 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so you Daniel Horowitz. Fine. The bizarre part of 97 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: this is that they looked in the freezer. 98 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: Yes, okay, because I have a problem with the dead 99 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: body in the freezer. I would like to start right there, 100 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: and I know where you're going. You are suggesting that 101 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: they kill the woman, But I'd like to point out 102 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 2: I know where you're going. Don't even go what No, 103 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 2: that's where you're going. Isn't that where you're going. 104 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 5: I'm going that they knew something was up. They didn't 105 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 5: just go there and go into a cold freezer for nothing. 106 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 5: It's peculiar, Nancy Daniel. 107 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, and you're 108 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 2: normally you're doing what you always do. Your point every 109 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: which way, But where a jury should be focused. 110 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: If they did it, why the hey would they call 111 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: nine one one? Why would they be on the scene. 112 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 5: They probably knew who did it. They covered it up. 113 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 2: Oh, dear Lord in heaven, you know what. Let's start 114 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: with something called the facts. Joining me is Alexis Tereschuk, 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Alexis thank you for 116 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: being with us. Let's just start at the beginning. Family 117 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: members visiting San Diego for the holidays are in shock 118 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: when they find who they identify as their female relatives 119 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: badly decomposed body. And that is significant, Alexis Tereschuk. Badly 120 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: decomposed body. And I'm going to go back to doctor 121 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: Menna on that. Hold on, let me write myself a note. 122 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: She was already badly decomposed. That is significant. While I 123 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: appreciate Daniel Horowitz's farfetch theories, which actually have worked many 124 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: many times on jury's I would like to stick with 125 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: the facts. 126 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: We know they get there. 127 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: Her body is badly decomposed, and the homicide unit is 128 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: investigating due to the quote nature of the discovery. 129 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: We know it's a female. 130 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: We know the female that lived in the home wasn't 131 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: there to greet them at the door, and they have 132 00:07:54,920 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: identified her. And just before you say anything else, there 133 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: is another case where a victim was identified specifically by clothing. 134 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: Okay, take a listen to our cut a from Dave Mack. 135 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 6: When police described a sweatshirt on the body they found 136 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 6: Gabby Betito's stepfather, Jim Schmidt, tells doctor Phil he knew 137 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 6: Gabby had passed away. Schmid said the description of the 138 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 6: piece of clothing matched Gabby's favorite sweatshirt that he knew 139 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 6: was hers. Schmid also said it was from a local store, 140 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 6: so we knew it was hers. 141 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: You know, Alexis Terreschuk, I have a favorite windbreaker that 142 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: I wear all the time, and I have a favorite 143 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: sweatshirt Fulton County Fire Department sweatshirt. That is something that 144 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 2: would those two items positively identify me. Now, let's start 145 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: with the facts. Alexis, tell me what happened from the beginning. 146 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 3: So family comes from out of town to visit in 147 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 3: this town, Allied Garden. It's a suburb of Sandy. 148 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 7: You know. 149 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: San Diego is right on the water in southern California. 150 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: Can you slow down because everybody doesn't know everything you're 151 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: saying about San Diego. 152 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: Okay, start again. I want to hear it and slowly. 153 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: San Diego is really one of the most southern cities 154 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 3: in California, right on the border of Mexico. Allied Gardens 155 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 3: is a suburb, but a little bit east of the ocean. 156 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 3: This house is worth nine hundred thousand dollars. Is a 157 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 3: very is a nice neighborhood. It is a family friendly neighborhood, 158 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 3: good schools or in this area. Neighbors have said nothing 159 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: like this has ever happened in the neighborhood. These family 160 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: members come in on December twenty third, two days before Christmas, 161 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 3: from out of town. They cannot find anybody in the house. 162 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: The family members that they were expecting to be in 163 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 3: the house were not there. 164 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: Question, isn't Allied Gardens very close to the college area 165 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: as it is called. That house is San Diego State University. Yeah, 166 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: I see, that's very interesting to me that were near 167 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 2: a college town and not. 168 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: Far away at all. 169 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: But back to what you were saying about Allied Gardens, 170 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: go ahead, I'm sorry. 171 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: So it's a nice family neighborhood, This is a nice street. 172 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: Neighbors say that nothing has ever happened on the street. 173 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 3: They don't They have no reason to think that anything 174 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 3: had happened in this house. But the family shows up. 175 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: The family member that they were expecting to meet them 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: is not there, and so they search the house and 177 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 3: they find a body in the freezer. Then while we 178 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: would say it with their family member, the body is 179 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 3: so frozen that they the only thing they can really 180 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: tell from the frozen body is that it is a female. 181 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: Okay, I want to follow up on what you're saying. 182 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to the neighborhood and what 183 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: the significance of the population of Allied Gardens means to 184 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: this case. Maybe nothing, because it's so it's just really 185 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: a burrow or a neighborhood of San Diego. So is 186 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: population really wouldn't matter. Time stories with Nancy Greece to 187 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: Sean Patrick Farley joining me out of Discovery Bay, California, 188 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 2: former law enforcement now p I sadly specializing in criminal defense. 189 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: But I want all that against you. 190 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: Owner of Seanpatrick Investigations dot Com. 191 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: Sean Patrick, thank you for being with us. 192 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: The reason I'm curious about Allied Gardens is because there's 193 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: a big difference if a murder happens, say in Manhattan, 194 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: as opposed to Lizella, Georgia near where I'm from, Macon, Georgia. 195 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: Because when you've got a very dense population with millions 196 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: of people. It's like finding a n len a haystack, 197 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: as opposed to a much smaller population or a rural population, 198 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 2: which really limits your suspect pool agree, disagree. 199 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 7: Certainly agree. I think the fact this occurred in a 200 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 7: dense population is a credit to law enforcement's investigation. I 201 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 7: think that provides potential evidence, whether it's through ring, doorbell cameras, technology, 202 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 7: you know, cell phone ringing, things of that nature. Certainly 203 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 7: with today's modern technology, that's going to assist law enforcement. 204 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 7: I would like to go back, you know, to your 205 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 7: initial statement though, and you said, you know, homicide. You know, 206 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 7: we're assuming this is a homicide, and I think everything 207 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 7: points to that. I think the fact that the victim 208 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 7: was found in a freezer is an initial point that 209 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 7: something is wrong, but we don't know how she got 210 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 7: in the freezer. 211 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: Okay, Can I just stop you right there, Sean Patrick, 212 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: please do Okay. We're not in defense land land, Okay. 213 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: I look at the facts as they are, not how 214 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: a defense attorney would want them to be. Like you 215 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: just heard Daniel Horowitz, He'll have this thing spun out 216 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: to where she took a nap and accidentally shut the lid. 217 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: On herself, you know, that's where he's going. 218 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 2: Or the relatives who find her body and report it 219 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 2: they did it. I don't believe that either. But it 220 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,599 Speaker 2: can't be anything but a homicide. 221 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: It's not. There's only three ways to die. 222 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 2: You've got natural, you've got accident, and you've got foul play. 223 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 7: Let's start with your initial because I agree with you. 224 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 7: Let's start with your initial, the natural, because I agree 225 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 7: with that, and I think that's a possibility. You know, 226 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 7: we all deal with death in a number of different ways. 227 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 7: The emotion that comes with death that we all handle 228 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 7: it differently, and it's a very tragic thing. It's a 229 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 7: very difficult thing. There's been many cases now the average person, 230 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 7: I think when somebody in our home are loved ones, 231 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 7: or we come across the deceased person, we call the authorities, 232 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 7: we call nine to one one. Unfortunately, that's not the 233 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 7: way everybody deals when they come across that sort of 234 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 7: a situation. We have situations where a family member will 235 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 7: die and a husband, a wife, a father, or son, 236 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 7: they just can't let go. 237 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: Okay. 238 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: You know, Sean Patrick, I've heard all kind of great 239 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 2: things about you. Thank you, ma'm you have a Stirling reputation. 240 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: But again, let me direct to you to what is known, 241 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: and that is there are three causes. There's three ways 242 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: to die, natural death like you kill over with a 243 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 2: heart attack, accident like you have a car crash, and 244 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: foul play. Okay, are you suggesting this was an accident? 245 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 7: Certainly not suggesting anything at this point, yes, no, yes, no. 246 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: Are you suggesting with an accident that she died in 247 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: the freezer? 248 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 7: Certainly not. I don't have. 249 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: Natya comin. She had to jump into it. It's not 250 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: an accident. You don't land in a chest freezer. 251 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 7: Certainly agree by accidently agree? 252 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: Okay, natural, it's certainly not natural to die in a 253 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: phraser That leads me one choice, and that's foul play. 254 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 2: Agree or disagree, Sean Patrick Farlie, I. 255 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 7: Think with the options that you're presenting, with the words 256 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 7: that you're using to describe, but of course I agree 257 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 7: with you, but before we move on, because I think 258 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 7: ultimately my agreeance is with you, and I think my 259 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 7: information will support that. But I don't want to move 260 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 7: past the ailing family member who lost and just can't 261 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 7: report it and put their family member into this freezer 262 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 7: to store them there with hopes of maybe someday reporting it, 263 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 7: maybe someday just keeping their family member in that state. Now, 264 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 7: do I think that happened. No, As an investigator, do 265 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 7: I consider that absolutely, because at this stage we don't 266 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 7: have any information as the audience is the outside looking 267 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 7: into law enforcement's investigation. So as an investigator, I will 268 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 7: not discount anything at this point because that would be irresponsible. 269 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 7: I certainly don't want to go back and recreate work. 270 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: Well, never call you, Sean Patrick Farley irresponsible, guys. This 271 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: is what we're learning. Take a listen now to Dave 272 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: mac a crime online. 273 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 6: Around eleven forty five on Saturday, a nine to one 274 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 6: one call is made to the San Diego Police Department. 275 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 6: Out of town visitors find a badly decomposed body inside 276 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 6: a chess freezer and their loved one is missing. The 277 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 6: case is turned over to the homicide unit. The name 278 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 6: of the deceased has not been released. 279 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: You know, I look this up on Zillo because I couldn't. 280 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: They haven't released any crime scene photos yet. And I'm 281 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: looking at this place. It's nice four nine one four 282 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: Zion Avenue, San Diego, and I notice how close And 283 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 2: I think this is the norm out there, alexis treeschuk. 284 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: The homes in this neighborhood are very close to each other. 285 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: They're really pretty, but they are very. 286 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: Close to each other. 287 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 2: My point, of course, is a point of criminal law 288 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: if there had been any sort of altered location. 289 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: With the neighbors have heard it. That's what I'm looking at. 290 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 1: But have you seen this. 291 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 2: It's got a front porch with very well kept yard 292 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: with flight with potted plants all on the front ports 293 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 2: that require attention. And then there is a side patio, 294 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: a sliding glass door, and what is striking me is 295 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: the attention that has been given to it. There's another 296 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 2: patio setting out there. Everything is pristine. It looks like 297 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: ready for a visit, a tree lined neighborhood, which is important. 298 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: And there is a barrier in the front yard before 299 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 2: the street where a fence has been constructed to match 300 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: the home. 301 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking at that. 302 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: And there's a school across the street. Like this is 303 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 3: a very safe neighborhood. 304 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 2: Three bedroom, one and a half bath, nine hundred thousand dollars. 305 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: Is that mean? It can mean a lot of things, 306 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: But in my. 307 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 2: World, doctor Angela Arnold joining me, renowned psychiatrist out of 308 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie. When you have nine hundred 309 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 2: thousand dollars put down on a family home and a 310 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: family neighborhood across from a school, a public school, that 311 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: means you're probably not a dope dealer or an arms dealer. 312 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 8: That's correct. 313 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: You know who wants those homes across from the school. 314 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: People that have children in the school, or that teach 315 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: at the school. That's the neighborhood we're talking about. 316 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 8: And also typically Nancy people will people will pay more 317 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 8: money to be close to a good school. So it 318 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 8: indicates that that's in all likelihood a good school, and 319 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 8: people are clamoring to be in that neighborhood and that 320 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 8: drives the price of the homes up. 321 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: Also, I can count in my head acquaintances of ours 322 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 2: that have moved to be closer to the school so 323 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: they don't have such long commute for their children every morning. 324 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 8: And they'll pay extra for that. 325 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a big deal to me because it's 326 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: giving me an idea about who the killer could have been. 327 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 2: Of course, you can't negate Sean Patrick Farley's theory that. 328 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: She was killed. 329 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 2: She was murdered and then family members were so distraught 330 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: they didn't call the malan one immediately they froze her. 331 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 2: Doctor Othan Minna is joining me, very well known forensic 332 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: pathologist medical examiner in this jurisdiction there in California and 333 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: has had experience with frozen bodies. I'd like to point 334 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: out also that we know that she was badly decomposed 335 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: when the relatives got there for Christmas on December twenty three. 336 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: Doctor Minna, thank you so much for being with us. 337 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: How can you, without knowing anything about the death, look 338 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: at a body if it's been thought out and know 339 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 2: that it's frozen, Doctor manaw. 340 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 9: Well, to know that somebody was frozen, it would be 341 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 9: very cold inside it, it warms up last inside, and 342 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 9: it'd also be very hard to cut when examining the 343 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 9: body during the autopsy. 344 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, what if the body was thought out 345 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: at the time it was put on your autopsy table. 346 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 9: Then if it gets thought out, it actually will be composed, 347 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 9: continued decomposing at a different rate. For example, where it's 348 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 9: still frozen, it will maintain. But then the more fingers hands, 349 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 9: the head of the stuff that's more peripheral, more outside, 350 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 9: it'll start to saw out, so the medical examiner will 351 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 9: have to try to have the body saw more evenly. 352 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 9: So sometimes what is used is a fan to move 353 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 9: the air around the room. Put in room temperature and 354 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 9: use a fan to move the air so that one 355 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 9: part of the body doesn't saw faster. 356 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 2: With your hearing, doctor open Mena, joining us from southern California, 357 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Minna, I think I understood you to say that 358 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 2: the outermost parts of the body, such as the digits, 359 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: the fingers, the toes you mentioned the head, begin to 360 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: thaw before the rest of the body. The core, which 361 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: I assume is the torso, is that the last thing 362 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: to thaw. 363 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 9: Yes, inside the organs will even have ice on them. 364 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute. First of all, organs will have 365 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 2: ice on the organs. 366 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 9: Right, so some of the water from the organs. Of course, 367 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 9: it depends on what point she was frozen, how decomposed, 368 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 9: how much she decomposed before getting frozen, that really determines. 369 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 9: But if the body still has water in it and 370 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 9: fluid it can form crystals and the parts that still 371 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 9: have some water. 372 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: And then doctor Manna again, if the body is totally 373 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: thawed out at the time you get it on your 374 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 2: autopsy table. How you how do you determine it was 375 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 2: ever frozen? Can you look at the cells and figure 376 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: that out? 377 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 9: No, Once the person is decomposed, the tissue will all 378 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 9: be lose its kind of cellular structure. It is hard 379 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 9: to see the details on biosy, but one thing is 380 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 9: to see if it decomposed differently. For example, are some 381 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 9: parts of the body more decomposed than another. That tells 382 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 9: me that probably the person have to be thought out 383 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 9: and decomposed differently, unless for different parts of the body 384 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 9: were exposed to different temperatures for whatever reason. 385 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 2: I'm very curious about how the body ended up in 386 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 2: the fraser, of course, but I find it very difficult 387 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 2: to believe that relatives would show up and then call 388 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 2: nine one one if they were responsible. Which leads me 389 00:22:54,680 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: to my question, doctor Othan Minna, as to why her 390 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: identity and her cood cause of death has not been released. 391 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: What do you think, doctor Manna? 392 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 9: So why I would like to know if she was 393 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 9: actually identified already, depending on how decomposed she is, she 394 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 9: can be easily identified. Means she's still wearing her clothes 395 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 9: or still kind of looks like her. But if she's 396 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 9: far more advanced given that there's different levels of decomposition, 397 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 9: so they might actually not know who she is, or 398 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 9: they just need to confirm that identification either dental records 399 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 9: or is she still fingerprints are still available. That's another 400 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 9: common method. 401 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: Now, why is it that after a period of time 402 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: the maa medical examiner can no longer get fingerprints off 403 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 2: a dead body. 404 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 9: Is the fingers just dry out too much or the 405 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 9: skin sloughs offce so it might have it can come off. 406 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 9: And so sometimes some medical examiners have become very good 407 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 9: at what's called rehydrating the digits and then that the 408 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 9: fingerprint can actually come back or at least get a 409 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 9: partial print. 410 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: Can I talk to you about what you just said, 411 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: doctor Manna? 412 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 2: How do you and why do you rehydrate the digits 413 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: the fingertips? 414 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: Could you explain that? 415 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 9: Sure? So they can become very dry or desiccated, almost mammified. 416 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 9: So what happens is some people they've developed special formulas 417 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 9: to kind of rehydrate and plump up the tissue of 418 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 9: the skin again, and then that can be then rolled 419 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 9: on a piece of paper with some ink on it 420 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 9: and it'll actually look great, almost like the person was 421 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 9: still alive. So people are getting better and better at 422 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 9: using this method for rehydrating the digits. 423 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 2: This is not the first time a body, a woman's 424 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: body has been found in the freezer, and medical examiners 425 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: face the same problems that you're hearing from. 426 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: Doctor men. Take a listen to our cut. Five is 427 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: the name Shannon Graves ring a Bell. 428 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 10: As police are looking for missing Shannon Graves. Ken Eshenball 429 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 10: caused nine to one one to report he and his 430 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 10: wife just found a woman's dismembered body wrapped in garbage 431 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 10: bags in their freezer. Except for the head it is missing. 432 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 10: Eschenbah tells police he is storing the freezer for a 433 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 10: friend who's power went out. The friend a Toro, Novoa 434 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 10: and more. 435 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 11: Before they even find her body in the freezer, police 436 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 11: began checking jail's, prisons, hospitals. They've run out of leeds, 437 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 11: and so they're looking any and everywhere just to see 438 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 11: if something has happened along the way. Then a couple 439 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 11: of months into the investigation, there's some shocking news coming 440 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 11: out of Campbell, Ohio. This is just a ten minute 441 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 11: drive from Youngstown. Word is that a couple living in 442 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 11: Campbell have made a horrific discovery in their own house, 443 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 11: in their basement, and they think a friend of theirs 444 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 11: has something to do with it. 445 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: And of course I'm going to circle back to Daniel 446 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 2: Horowitz in a moment, because he'll try to blame them. 447 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: Because they looked in the phraser. 448 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: That's not a felony to look in the fraser, Daniel Horowitz. 449 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: But the irony, as we compare the current case to 450 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 2: the case of Shannon Graves in Youngstown, Ohio, is that 451 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: it all happened around Christmas as well. This is what 452 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 2: our friend Ray Coputo tells me. Ray Coputo for anchor WDBA. 453 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 12: It wasn't uncommon, according to family members, for Shannon to 454 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 12: go long periods of time without contacting family members. So 455 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 12: when she first kind of people noticed that she wasn't around, 456 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 12: it wasn't like, you know somebody you see every day 457 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 12: where you immediately noticed that she was last seen on 458 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 12: Christmas Day in twenty sixteen, and then her sister said 459 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 12: she saw her a couple months later in mid February. 460 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 12: But again, it's kind of abnormal. You think when somebody 461 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 12: goes missing in a matter of days, people noticed, But 462 00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 12: it wasn't like that with Shannon. 463 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: So it all started around Christmas as in the current case. 464 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 2: Now take a listen to crime reporter John Limley and 465 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 2: Our cut nine. 466 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 11: The beginning of the story goes back when Ken Eschenbah 467 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 11: says a friend introduced him to a man named Anthony 468 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 11: Gonzales Well. Ken says he became friends with Anthony because 469 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 11: Ken owns some audio equipment and Anthony was interested in 470 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 11: recording rap music. Fast forward to the middle of the July. 471 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 11: This is when Anthony asks Ken for a favor. Anthony 472 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 11: tells Ken that the electricity has gone out in his 473 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 11: home and he's concerned that some meat he was keeping 474 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 11: in a freezer was in danger of thogging. Going back, 475 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 11: so when Anthony asked Ken if he could bring the 476 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 11: freezer to his home in Campbell, Ken said, sure, no problem. 477 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: That's how it all went down. 478 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: Has anybody out there ever had your electricity go off? 479 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: And you want to say, what's senior freezer? Because it's 480 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: happened to me. Our next door neighbor asked if they 481 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 2: could store all their frozen stuff and our frazer. We 482 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: said sure, and they did because their electricity went out. 483 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: Now I'm sure Daniel Horowitz is coming up with all 484 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: sorts of conspiracy theories about how this went down, But 485 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: here's the answer. 486 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 11: In our cut eleven, she begins rummaging through the freezer 487 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 11: and comes upon a large garbage bag inside. This is 488 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 11: when Ken's wife says she immediately got a bad feeling. 489 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 11: She put everything back in, replaced the three screws, and 490 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 11: called her husband. And when Ken arrives at home, he 491 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 11: opens the freezer and found that whatever was inside the 492 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 11: bag was frozen solid. 493 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: Okay, Daniel Horowitz, renowned defense attorney, joining us out of 494 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: the California jurisdiction. See, you can innocently look into a freezer. 495 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: That does not make you a killer. Daniel Horowitz. 496 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 5: Fancy grace? What okay? 497 00:28:59,600 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 9: You like? 498 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 5: You like my labradoodle with a bone you won't let go. 499 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take that as a compliment. 500 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 5: It doesn't make sense that you're going to somebody's house 501 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 5: and you don't call them a few days before saying 502 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 5: were coming over. That body was badly decomposed. That person 503 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 5: was probably dead for what days, weeks, I don't know 504 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 5: how long it was in the freezer. But you don't 505 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 5: not speak to a person and then you show up 506 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 5: with their doorstep, So they had to have been out 507 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 5: of contact with this person for weeks and then just 508 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 5: show up and go to the freezer. It doesn't make sense. 509 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: How do I know? 510 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's California, Alexis Tereschuk in this area, especially 511 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: with the Santa Anna wins. We don't know what the 512 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: temperature was leading up to Christmas. For all I know, 513 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: there were warm days, there were definitely wet days. We 514 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 2: don't know how the decomposition was aided and embedded by 515 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: the weather where she had been before she was put 516 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 2: into the freezer. And I know other thing, which I'll 517 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: go back to you on Doctor Angela Arnold. We showed 518 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: up at a lot of people's house unannounced over Christmas 519 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: because we deliver eggnog and homemade treats and cakes and 520 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: cookies that we make to people all over our neighborhood 521 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: and we don't call and make an appointment. 522 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 3: Well, I would have liked to have gotten some of 523 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: that eggnog. 524 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: First of all, sorry, I'm sure you on an exotic vacation, 525 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: but go ahead, continue continue, But. 526 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 8: Honestly, Nancy, did you go in the people's house and 527 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 8: start rummaging around their breathing. 528 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: Because they answered the door and they were not my relative. 529 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 2: But if I had gone to my sister's home and 530 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: she didn't come to the door on a day that 531 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 2: I knew she was going to be there, and she 532 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: didn't come to the door for hours and hours and hours, 533 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 2: you would. 534 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 12: Have gone in rubs and rummaged through her freezer. 535 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: No, I would have tried to call her. 536 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: And if I saw her car park there and I 537 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: couldn't account for where she was, you don't right, I 538 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: would go in and look for my sister, and with 539 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: my background, actually yes, I would look in the freezer. 540 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: But to you, Alexis Terschuk, what about it? 541 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it was very sunny and warm 542 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 3: on Christmas here in California, and San Diego is even 543 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 3: warmer than Los Angeles. It was we had beautiful weather. 544 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 3: But the thing is nobody had reported anyone missing ahead 545 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 3: of time, so it wasn't like this person was missing 546 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 3: for days and the police and no one called for 547 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 3: a welfare check to the house. Nobody raised any alarm 548 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 3: before this family came there, So if they were you 549 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 3: can think that they were arriving expecting someone to be there, 550 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: that they hadn't been worried before. 551 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if it's a woman that lives alone. I'm 552 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,959 Speaker 2: wondering if that relative lives alone. I wonder if it's 553 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: somebody's auntie or granny where you just kind of walk in, 554 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 2: but we don't haven't been given any of that information. 555 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 2: Time stories with Nancy Grace to you saw Patrick Frawley. 556 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: Would that make the pieces fit together. 557 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: Better for you if it was a woman that lived alone, 558 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 2: that was a relative of this family. 559 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,719 Speaker 1: That came to visit, like an aunt or a grandma. 560 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 7: I sture would like to have some pieces of a 561 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 7: puzzle to start putting together, something to start a foundation 562 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 7: for this to make sense, because I think we all 563 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 7: agree this is not making sense, and law enforcement is 564 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 7: being very slow in their ability to release information. Now 565 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 7: we're at the holidays, so law enforcement their resources are 566 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 7: going to be minimal. Here in California, we already have 567 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 7: an issue with law enforcement being understaffed at this time. 568 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 7: It's a holiday season, so they'll patrol maybe up and 569 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 7: running the outside resources meaning support staff, administrative detectives, things 570 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 7: like that. They may have been on holiday leaves, vacation 571 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 7: and things of that nature. So that's going to push 572 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 7: back a little bit of information being released to the public. 573 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 7: But I certainly to your point, I would like some 574 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 7: pieces to begin with. I think right now they're just 575 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 7: so scattered that any comment or any strategic lead that 576 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 7: we believe we have is just based off of frivolous 577 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 7: hope and the past that seems that this has happened. 578 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 7: But right now, from an investigative standpoint, a number of 579 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 7: things can happen. And I'd like to finish with you. 580 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 7: You seem to throw great parties. I would love to 581 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 7: come to one of your parties. I'm a social person. 582 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 7: I would show up if it was the holidays with 583 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 7: something in hand. I would have a nice pie. I 584 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 7: would have some sort of dessert. I would have something 585 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 7: to bring to the party at a friend's house, especially 586 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 7: a family member's house. So if i walk into the 587 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 7: home and they're not there, and I'm looking around and 588 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 7: I'm looking for Aunt Joan or uncle Bill and he's 589 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 7: not around, and I keep looking, I keep looking, nobody 590 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 7: can find them. At some point, what am I going 591 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 7: to do with the frozen pieot to my hand. I'm 592 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 7: going to continue to just walk around the home with 593 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 7: it At some point, I'll secure that food as I 594 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 7: continue to look for my aunt or my uncle or 595 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 7: my friend who's invited me over. Now, where am I 596 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 7: going to secure that frozen pine? 597 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 5: Well? 598 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 2: Another thing is if they had been there and they're waiting, 599 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: and they're waiting, and they're waiting, they may have looked 600 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 2: in there for something to eat. 601 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: Why did they go in there? I don't know, and 602 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: I don't care. 603 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: The only reason I would care is under Daniel Horowitz says, 604 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 2: I say, far fetch theory. I want to make sure 605 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 2: that they're not the ones that put her in there. 606 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 2: Do I think that they did know? Because they called 607 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 2: nine to one one over? Now, another thing really jumped 608 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 2: out at me. In that last case of Shannon Graves, 609 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: doctor Oath and Minna joining Us doctor Minna, Shannon had 610 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: been dismembered and her torso was frozen solid. 611 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: You said something earlier about how. 612 00:34:54,480 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: The body cells begin to degenerate because of the free 613 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: Would that make it difficult to get a DNA match? 614 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: Because certainly within that home they're going to find the 615 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: woman's DNA from a hair brush or a comb or 616 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 2: a toothbrush. But can you get DNA from a frozen body. 617 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 9: Yes, actually from bone you can use the longbows are ideal, 618 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 9: such as the femur or the humors. But yet you 619 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 9: can use some of the DNA storymaining in the bone, 620 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 9: and actually freezing would probably help help preserve it as 621 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 9: opposed to somebody out in the sun in the desert 622 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 9: or something, so that DNA might actually have been helped 623 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 9: by freezing. So that's probably the method they would use, 624 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 9: unless there's still any blood and then the blood can 625 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 9: have some. 626 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: Much or Othen Menna joining US forensic pathologists who has 627 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 2: experience in frozen body cases. Doctor Manna, every time you 628 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 2: say something, I have a million new questions because everything 629 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 2: you say is incredibly interesting to me. Now I just 630 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: learned that the best bones we got to remember this 631 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 2: Jackie from which you get DNA would be the long bones, 632 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: such as the leg bone. You mentioned two of them, 633 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 2: one being the female. I don't remember the other one. 634 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: But why is that? Is there more DNA? 635 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 2: And do you get it from essentially the bone marrow, 636 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 2: the living tissue inside of the bone. 637 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: Where do you get the DNA from a bone? 638 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 9: Actually from the outer part that's called the cortex, so 639 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 9: the really hard part on the outside of the bones 640 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 9: is what would be useful? Kind of it would get ground? 641 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 2: Interesting? I would have thought it would have been the 642 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 2: inside of the bone. But you're saying the outer covering 643 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 2: of the bone the cortex. Correct, And why a long bone, 644 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 2: Why is that preferred because there's more of it, there's 645 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: more cortex exactly? 646 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: Okay? Interesting. 647 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: So even if all we had is say her torso, 648 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: as in the Shannon Graves case, you could still get 649 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 2: DNA from a bound even if frozen. 650 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 9: Yes, And again it depends on what point the person 651 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 9: was frozen. So some people after dying, for whatever reason, 652 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,439 Speaker 9: they get frozen. So if it happens right after death, 653 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 9: the better preserve the tissue will be. If the person 654 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 9: will really badly decomposed and then frozen for concealment, for example, 655 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,280 Speaker 9: then the less likely the tissue will be helpful. 656 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 2: People look in freezers for all sorts of reasons. What 657 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 2: about Melissa Mooney? Take a listen to our cut twenty 658 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: from Crime Online. 659 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 6: May Lisa Mooney moves into anough scale apartment in Los Angeles. 660 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 6: When she doesn't return to pick up some items from 661 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 6: her previous residence, her mother gets worried, realizing nobody in 662 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 6: the family has seen mey Lisa Mooney for several days. 663 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 6: Her mother calls police for a welfare check. Police notice 664 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 6: blood pooling under the refrigerator in the new apartment and 665 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 6: the body of the thirty one year old model is inside. 666 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 6: She's been bound with electrical cords and clothing, a gag 667 00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 6: made from clothing with stuffed in her mouth, and other 668 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 6: items recovering her head. Blood force injuries as well as lacerations, abrasions, 669 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 6: and contusions were found on her face, head, backing up 670 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 6: her left arm, according to the coroner's report. The report 671 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 6: found the injuries by themselves were not severe enough to 672 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 6: have caused her death on their own, but suggest she 673 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 6: was likely involved in a violent physical altercation. Her cause 674 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 6: of death was determined homicidal violence, and the report suggests 675 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 6: she may have been asphyxiated, although no direct marks from 676 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 6: strangulation were observed. 677 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 2: We picked Melissa's case for a very important reason. The 678 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 2: reason is number one, people looked into the freezer because 679 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 2: they saw blood pooling outside the freezer. So to you, 680 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 2: Daniel Horowitz, high profile lawyer joining us out of California 681 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 2: this jurisdiction. There any number of reasons that the relatives 682 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: may have looked in the freezer. 683 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 5: How did they even get in the house? Did they 684 00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 5: have a key? Was the door open? 685 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 2: Oh, dear lord, now you're on the front door. First 686 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 2: I give you an answer about the freezer, and now. 687 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: You want to know why they came through the door. 688 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: It never ends with you, does it. 689 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,959 Speaker 5: You haven't answered the key question. They show up unannounced, 690 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 5: They show up not having spoken to the person for weeks. 691 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 5: The doors open, They just walk in and they go, Oh, 692 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 5: there's a nice freezer. Let's open it up and see 693 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 5: if she's there. It's ridiculous. 694 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: How do I know there wasn't blood pooling outside the freezer? 695 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 2: I don't know why they looked in the freezer. Why 696 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 2: did the Melissa's mother want to look in the freezer? 697 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 2: Why did the neighbor who was storing a freezer that 698 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 2: was padlot decide to look in the freezer. 699 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: She said she was looking for meat to make spaghetti. 700 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: Do I believe that? Hgl noo. 701 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 2: She looked in the freezer because she thought something weird 702 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,240 Speaker 2: was going on, and she checked in the freezer. 703 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a natural. 704 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 2: Logical course of thinking, but it's happening We are finding 705 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 2: bodies in freezers, just like this woman's body was found 706 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 2: in the freezer. And she's not the only one. Take 707 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 2: a listener. Cut twenty one regarding. 708 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 6: In Mond, Brandon Sanders is arrested and charged in the murder, 709 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,240 Speaker 6: robbery and burglary of a sixty nine year old Bosnian 710 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 6: war refugee, Russim Katonic. While Sanders is in court on 711 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 6: that murder charge, police service search foreign at his apartment 712 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 6: and find the body of a young woman stuffed in 713 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 6: his freezer. The family of eighteen year old emm Al 714 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 6: Sarah tell ABC seven News she is beaten to death. 715 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 6: Sanders faces murder charges in the killing of Russim Katonic, 716 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 6: but police have not said when or if they will 717 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 6: charge him with the death of a mom Al Sarrah. 718 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 2: And that's not the only one. What about Brian Heimmert. 719 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 2: Listen to twenty two. 720 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 6: In Florida, the Lee County Sheriff's Office tells Fox four 721 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,480 Speaker 6: they have been able to end one investigation as they 722 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 6: begin a new one. The case that has solved the 723 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 6: missing person case involving a sixty year old man, Brian Hemmert. 724 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 6: His body has been found stuffed in her freezer in 725 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 6: his house. Investigators have yet to determine the cause of death, 726 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 6: but they have taken Himmert's thirty one year old son, 727 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 6: Jake Heimmert, into custody and charged him with second degree murder, 728 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 6: credit card fraud, and grand theft. Police were called to 729 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 6: Brian Hemmert's house about a missing person's report and took 730 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 6: Jake Heimbert into custody on an unrelated out of state warrant. 731 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 6: Ten days after placing Jake Hemmert in jail on the warrant, 732 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 6: Brian Hemmert's body was found in a freezer with the 733 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 6: defect in the home. The two men. 734 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: Shared, okay, and that's not all. 735 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 2: What about not just a body? But to make it 736 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 2: even more difficult to solve, a hand. Take a listen 737 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 2: to our friends at crimeonline dot com. 738 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 4: A family moves out of an Alabama rental property and 739 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 4: the owner decided to sell. The new owners are cleaning 740 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 4: up around the property when they find a freezer in 741 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 4: the backyard that is too heavy to load on a trailer. 742 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 4: They decided to clean it out before hauling it away. 743 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 4: When they open the freezer, the new owners see what 744 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 4: looks like a human hand and immediately call nine one. 745 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 2: And following up on Daniel Horowitz's theory that these relatives 746 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 2: killed her, or. 747 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 5: At least Nancy, they knew at least they knew who 748 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 5: did it. They knew something was wrong. Look, Nancy, it's 749 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 5: a big chest, freezer and a small residence. What's it 750 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,439 Speaker 5: doing there? What was in it before? It doesn't make 751 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 5: sense if there's just a freezer sitting there. If somebody 752 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 5: took the things out of that freezer and put a 753 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 5: body in, where are the things that were taken out? 754 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. 755 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 2: You go from why they look into the freezer to 756 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 2: why they went in the front door, to what did 757 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 2: they do with the leftovers? Okay, guys, earlier and he's 758 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 2: a renowned defense attorney, and he wins cases because of 759 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 2: crazy theories just like this one, and that he's coming 760 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 2: up with right now. But notice he's always got a 761 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: backup argument. But listen to this. Earlier he mentioned that 762 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: these poor relatives who show up at Christmas and find 763 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 2: the dead body, that they killed her and for sentimental 764 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 2: reasons put her in the freezer and then call nine 765 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: one one. 766 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our. 767 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 2: Cut nineteen does the name Eva Bratcher ring a bell. 768 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 4: Thirty eight year old Sabrina Watson is worried about her grandmother. 769 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 4: It's been a long time since the two have talked. 770 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 4: She calls police and asks for a well being check 771 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 4: on Regina Michowski. At the home, police find Watson's mother, 772 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,280 Speaker 4: Eva Bratcher. She gives the police an ID with Bratcher's 773 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,760 Speaker 4: picture and Regina Michowski's name. Police investigate further and found 774 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 4: the body of Michowski in a freezer. 775 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: The body had to be thought. 776 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 4: Out to determine the cause of death. Eva Bratcher is 777 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 4: now accused of keeping her mother's dead body in the 778 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 4: freezer for two years and stealing her identity. 779 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 2: You know, doctor Angel Arnold, we have discussed on several 780 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 2: occasions Long Island serial killer, who I believe to be 781 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 2: Rex Huerman, and how every day he would drive that 782 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,919 Speaker 2: route to work, to catch the train or to drive 783 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 2: into Manhattan, and he would pass his victims lined up 784 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 2: along Gilgo. 785 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 1: Beach like trophies. How do you go buy a. 786 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 2: Freezer and park your car in front of it and 787 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 2: pass it for all in a store your leftover spaghetti 788 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 2: and I don't know when you know there is a 789 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 2: dead body in it? 790 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, it sounds like some people have a have 791 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 8: a reason for that, and the reason is like, in 792 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,760 Speaker 8: this last case that you just discussed, to steal someone's identity, Nancy, 793 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 8: If you steal someone's identity, then that means you could 794 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 8: be getting a check from that person. You could you 795 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 8: could possibly making some financial gain from stealing someone's identity. 796 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 8: So I imagine once this checks start coming in and the 797 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 8: person is frozen down in the bottom of the freezer, 798 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 8: you just lose your attachment with them, and the and 799 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 8: the monetary game that you're getting from that becomes much 800 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 8: more important than worrying about if there's a dead body 801 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 8: in your freezer. 802 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 2: So somehow, going from the psychological issue of how you 803 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,879 Speaker 2: compartmentalize the dead body in the frazer and go about 804 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 2: your business, you have somehow taken us into the territory 805 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 2: of a pecuniary or monetary game motive in a murder. Yes, Okay, 806 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,919 Speaker 2: alexis Trestchuck. Where does the case stand right now? 807 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 3: The police have yet to release the identity of the 808 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 3: woman whose body was found, and the family has not 809 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,280 Speaker 3: spoken out about their missing relatives, so we are waiting 810 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 3: for the results from the medical Examiner Nancy jump In, 811 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,600 Speaker 3: We've just got worried that the body has been identified 812 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 3: as Mary Margaret Haxby Jones. 813 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 13: And at the time that her body was found, if 814 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 13: she had been living, she would have been eighty one 815 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 13: years old. It's believed she lived at the home at 816 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 13: some point. We still don't know how or when Haxby 817 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 13: Jones died, but she may have been missing or dead 818 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 13: for up to nine years. SDPD says no missing person 819 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 13: report was ever filed for her. Now, the out of 820 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,239 Speaker 13: town visitors were not related to Haxby Jones. Instead, they're 821 00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 13: related to someone currently living at the residents. The medical 822 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 13: Examiner's office is still working to determine the cause of death, 823 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 13: and again, the body did not have any obvious traumatic injuries. However, 824 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 13: the police are still investigating this as a suspicious death. 825 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the 826 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 2: body in the freezer, please dial eight eight eight five 827 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,919 Speaker 2: eight zero eight four seven seven toll free eight eight 828 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,240 Speaker 2: eight five eight zero eight four seven seven. 829 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:33,720 Speaker 1: Goodbye. 830 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 9: F