1
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Speaker 1: Chisel raised his sword and leaned across and ran Routledge

2
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Speaker 1: through the heart and immediately said he deserved his fate.

3
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Speaker 1: I aimed for his heart and I hit it, and

4
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Speaker 1: then asked for his slave boy to clean the sword,

5
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Speaker 1: and he then ordered some toddy and sat down and drank.

6
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Speaker 1: I mean just unbelievable that scene and the feeling of

7
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Speaker 1: ut of righteousness on his part, that he wronged me

8
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Speaker 1: verbally and I've put that right, and in front of many,

9
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Speaker 1: many witnesses, it must have been an incredible and ghastly spectacle.

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Speaker 2: It was June of seventeen sixty six, more than a

11
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Speaker 2: week after Colonel John Chisel stabbed Scottish merchant Robert Rutledge

12
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Speaker 2: to death with his sword. The sheriff drove Chisel toward Williamsburg,

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Speaker 2: about one hundred miles away, which would have taken at

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Speaker 2: least a day. Having spent a week locked away in

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Speaker 2: the Cumberland County jail, Chisel was exhausted. He had been

16
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Speaker 2: dragged to court, and he had demanded that the justices

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Speaker 2: release him on bail so he could avoid the spectacle

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Speaker 2: of being jailed in Williamsburg, where his family lived, But

19
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Speaker 2: the justices had declined to offer bail. Murderers were virtually

20
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Speaker 2: never offered bail, no matter their status. The judges were

21
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Speaker 2: also likely nervous about the case, so they sent Chisel

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Speaker 2: to Williamsburg to appear before the General Court. Historian and

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Speaker 2: interpreter Nicole Brown explains what happened as Chissel's carriage rambled

24
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Speaker 2: along the country road.

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Speaker 3: So he's on his way to Williamsburg, and all of

26
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Speaker 3: a sudden, the sheriff in question is intercepted by several

27
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Speaker 3: gentlemen of Williamsburg, also including his attorney, John Wales.

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Speaker 2: John Wales was a terrible person. Let's just say that upfront.

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Speaker 2: He was a plantation owner and a slave trader. He

30
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Speaker 2: was also a lawyer, and he was connected to a

31
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Speaker 2: future president, Thomas Jefferson, because Jefferson had married Wales's daughter, Martha.

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Speaker 2: John Wales was not a good person, but he was

33
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Speaker 2: a good attorney.

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Speaker 3: He's an attorney at this time, and not a very

35
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Speaker 3: popular one by all accounts in the newspaper. But he

36
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Speaker 3: ends up being Colonel Chisel's attorney and either takes depositions

37
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Speaker 3: or the depositions from the individuals in the tavern are

38
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Speaker 3: collected by him to be brought in front of three

39
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Speaker 3: of the justices of the peace.

40
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Speaker 2: Let's go back a bit for some context. While Chisel

41
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Speaker 2: was in jail in Cumberland County, Wales had been gathering

42
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Speaker 2: information about his case. What exactly had happened that afternoon

43
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Speaker 2: in Moseby's tavern? Who saw what? And what exactly do

44
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Speaker 2: they think they saw? Once it seemed like there could

45
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Speaker 2: be room for reasonable doubt, Wales came up with the

46
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Speaker 2: defense Ruttledge had threatened Chisel. Chisel armed himself with a

47
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Speaker 2: long sword. Then Rutledge lunged forward and essentially threw himself

48
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Speaker 2: on the sword, killing himself accidentally. To Wales, this seemed

49
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Speaker 2: like a reasonable explanation. Wales also knew that it would

50
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Speaker 2: be unacceptable for a member of the gentry class to

51
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Speaker 2: be jailed in the center of Williamsburg. It would be humiliating,

52
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Speaker 2: not just for Chisel, but for any member of the

53
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Speaker 2: upper class in the thirteen colonies. So Wales approached the

54
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Speaker 2: three Justices of the General Court in Williamsburg. This was

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Speaker 2: the highest core for the Colony of Virginia. It was

56
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Speaker 2: meant to preside over felony cases or civil cases that

57
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Speaker 2: were financially more notable big cases. These three men would

58
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Speaker 2: be presiding over Chisel's case and they would decide if

59
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Speaker 2: John Chisel would receive bail.

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Speaker 4: These individuals are all appointed to serve for life by

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Speaker 4: the Crown. The Royal governor is coming from England or Scotland,

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Speaker 4: so he's not going to be familiar with the customs

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Speaker 4: and the traditions of the Virginians. And that's why the

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Speaker 4: Crown has appointed these Virginians, for the most part, native

65
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Speaker 4: born Virginians, to assist the governor with his responsibilities. They

66
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Speaker 4: serve as the upper house of the colony's legislature, they

67
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Speaker 4: serve as the executive administration for the colony's government, and

68
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Speaker 4: they serve as the justices in the highest court in

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Speaker 4: the colony.

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Speaker 5: So three men from the Governor's council. It's John Blair,

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Speaker 5: Presley Thornton and William Bird. The third who had they

72
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Speaker 5: mentioned of earlier.

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Speaker 2: You've heard of William Byrd the because he was a

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Speaker 2: business partner of Chisel and John Robinson. The three men

75
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Speaker 2: owned Chisel's leadmine. John Chisel also owed William Byrd some

76
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Speaker 2: money and Bird had borrowed money from John Robinson. Now

77
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Speaker 2: you see how things went in the colonies.

78
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Speaker 6: The gentry, you know, the good old boy system, and

79
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Speaker 6: they were all partners.

80
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Speaker 2: Chisel's lawyer, John Wales approached the three justices of the

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Speaker 2: General Court and explained what happened in the tavern that day.

82
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Speaker 2: The trio of men panicked. They all had personal connections

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Speaker 2: to Chisel, and it would certainly be detrimental to the

84
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Speaker 2: gentry class to have one of their own seen behind

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Speaker 2: bars in the center of town. So, while Chisel was

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Speaker 2: at a bail hearing in Cumberland County, the three judges

87
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Speaker 2: came up with a plan.

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Speaker 3: In Williamsburg, Let's go talk to these three attorneys, one

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Speaker 3: of whom is George With, to see if you can

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Speaker 3: find precedent to give Colonel Chisel bail.

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Speaker 2: The justices of the General Court were searching for a

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Speaker 2: legal way to justify giving jo On Chisel bail.

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Speaker 5: They approach some learned lawyers, one of whom is George With,

94
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Speaker 5: to ask if it was possible for Colonel Chisel to

95
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Speaker 5: receive bail.

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Speaker 2: That's incredible. The judges of the General Court were supposed

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Speaker 2: to remain unbiased, but they weren't. They knew it would

98
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Speaker 2: be detrimental to send another member of the gentry class

99
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Speaker 2: to jail. But it wasn't just Chisel's reputation that was

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Speaker 2: at stake. Let's talk about what Chisel would face if

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Speaker 2: he were locked up in Williamsburg, and public humiliation would

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Speaker 2: be the least of his troubles. Lots of photos, ladies.

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Speaker 7: Okay, yeah, you'd like you could get a picture of

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Speaker 7: one of y'all unlocking us.

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Speaker 8: Get the key.

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Speaker 6: It's a weird key.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Cash, I got the key.

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Speaker 9: So belocks of pretty.

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Speaker 2: Finny cashier Hearts and Nicole were kind enough to give

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Speaker 2: my daughters and me a tour of the jail where

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Speaker 2: Chisel would serve his time.

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Speaker 9: There we go, all right, I'll turn it counterclockwise, keep going,

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Speaker 9: I'll go in.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Is this a jail cell? Now, why doesn't Cash explain

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Speaker 3: that to you? What this actually is?

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Speaker 4: So right now we are in the jail keeper's living quarters.

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Speaker 4: This is where the jail keeper and his family would

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Speaker 4: have resided. There would have had a kitchen on site

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Speaker 4: as well, and probably some other living space also, So

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Speaker 4: it's a pretty comfortable space compared to what most Virginians

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Speaker 4: would reside in. Most Virginians free or enslaved, they'd probably

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Speaker 4: live in a structure that has a dirt floor, no

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Speaker 4: glass in the windows. It would have an earthen fireplace,

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Speaker 4: whereas this structure, it has a wooden floor. It's a

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Speaker 4: brick building on a raised foundation, it has glazed windows,

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Speaker 4: and the fact that it has multiple rooms is another benefit.

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Speaker 2: It was an important job that required the jailer to

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Speaker 2: stay on the premises most of the time, so it

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Speaker 2: makes sense that the quarters would be nice. But we

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Speaker 2: were curious about what it would be like for a prisoner.

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Speaker 3: So I know, the night before his trial was to commence,

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Speaker 3: Chisel was supposed to stay in the jail. Do you

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Speaker 3: have any idea of what cell he likely would have

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Speaker 3: stayed in.

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Speaker 4: They don't seem to have had assigned jail cells.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps John Chisel would eventually be taken to the gallows.

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Speaker 2: Certainly at that time the public seemed to support the

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Speaker 2: idea that a murderer deserved it. But first he'd need

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Speaker 2: to go on trial, and he'd have to spend some

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Speaker 2: time in one of those cells.

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Speaker 4: They're pretty spartan conditions. You would not have had furniture

143
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Speaker 4: in the cells.

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Speaker 9: You would have.

145
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Speaker 4: Had a couple of palletts. That's sort of like a

146
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Speaker 4: cloth bag that's been filled with straw or corn husks

147
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Speaker 4: to sleep on. The jail keeper is responsible for providing

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Speaker 4: you food and for keeping you healthy. But if you

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Speaker 4: wanted better treatment or better food, or furniture or lodging,

150
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Speaker 4: you could have it, but only if you could afford

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Speaker 4: to pay for it.

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Speaker 2: Like so much of society at that time, even in jail,

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Speaker 2: it paid to be a member of the gentry. Did

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Speaker 2: the gentry like Chisel know about all of these conditions, Oh?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely. Chisel's son in law is the speaker of the house.

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Speaker 4: His friend serve on the council, who are the justices

157
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Speaker 4: of the court, so he would be very familiar with

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Speaker 4: the circumstances that folks in the jail are staying in.

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Speaker 8: As far as you know, in the history of this

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Speaker 8: jail in Williamsburg, had anybody at his caliber had been

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Speaker 8: here for any reason, debtors or anything else.

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Speaker 4: There were instances previously where individuals in high station in

163
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,360
Speaker 4: society had gotten in trouble with the law, but I'm

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Speaker 4: not aware of anyone that had ever progressed to the

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Speaker 4: point of about to be kept in the jail under

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Speaker 4: the accusation of murder.

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Speaker 2: Jail was a perilous place, and anyone who spent time

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Speaker 2: there was likely at risk, no matter their social status,

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Speaker 2: or maybe especially at risk because of it.

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Speaker 8: The public jail that you've been in is the place

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Speaker 8: where anybody who committed a murder is to be held

172
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Speaker 8: before their trial. And I certainly cannot think of anybody

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Speaker 8: who received the privilege of getting to go back to

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Speaker 8: his own house to await trial.

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Speaker 2: But Chisel's attorneys, including George with did find that precedent.

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Speaker 2: He pointed to a murder case where the coroner had

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Speaker 2: not declared that the death was a murder at the inquest.

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Speaker 2: Remember that in religious case, the coroner had said that

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Speaker 2: he had died from a sword stabbing, but Chisele was

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Speaker 2: not named.

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Speaker 5: Then Colonel Chisel can receive bail. This man received bail

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Speaker 5: because of a coroner's inquest.

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Speaker 3: They do find precedent to give Colonel Chisel bail or

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00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:50,360
Speaker 3: the attorneys due although it's dubious at best, and Colonel Chisel,

185
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Speaker 3: rather than being ushered away to the jail in Williamsburg,

186
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Speaker 3: which will be very hot and dark in the middle

187
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,839
Speaker 3: of the summer, is sent to his beautiful town home

188
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Speaker 3: in Williamsburg, two streets over.

189
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Speaker 2: The three judges, all friends of Chisel, convened privately. After

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Speaker 2: the attorneys presented their findings and they made their decision,

191
00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,720
Speaker 2: John Chisel could receive bail and they were in the

192
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,760
Speaker 2: right technically. Cash Erhart takes Nicole Brown and me on

193
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 2: a tour of a historic building where the council had

194
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Speaker 2: once met.

195
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Speaker 4: One of one conversations were taken place. Yeah, in this

196
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Speaker 4: room after Colonel Bird and the other members of the

197
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 4: council pretty much took it upon themselves to secure bail

198
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,320
Speaker 4: for or Chiswell.

199
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,040
Speaker 2: This seemed to be eighteenth century privilege on display, and

200
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 2: Robert Rutledge was essentially dismissed as a victim whose life

201
00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 2: had little value. Instead, rut his position as a merchant

202
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 2: was threatening.

203
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 5: We're talking about somebody who outright murdered his friend, and

204
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 5: then his friends tried to give him a privileged position.

205
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 10: So these two guys, when we talk about Colonel Chisel,

206
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,720
Speaker 10: who of course is an aristocrat's aristocrat, he is as

207
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:18,720
Speaker 10: gentry as they come.

208
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 4: He is kind of a jerk.

209
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 10: No one seems to particularly care for the guy, but

210
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,679
Speaker 10: is wealthy, well connected. And then you've got someone like Rutledge,

211
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,480
Speaker 10: who is making his way in the world in a

212
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,679
Speaker 10: time where people making their way in the world is

213
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:39,720
Speaker 10: making the wealthy elites uncomfortable, because yeah, so we've got

214
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,319
Speaker 10: our status quo guy who's representing sort of old school,

215
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 10: and then you've got Rutledge is sort of the people

216
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,559
Speaker 10: who are up and coming. And this bigger question always

217
00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,560
Speaker 10: is is who's in charge, who matters, and who gets

218
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:52,720
Speaker 10: to make those decisions.

219
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Speaker 2: The justices had never interviewed any of the witnesses themselves.

220
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 2: They just accepted the lead advice. That day on the

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Speaker 2: country ride, when the sheriff was stopped from continuing on

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Speaker 2: to Williamsburg, the three judges, as well as Chisel's attorney

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Speaker 2: were there to offer Chisel bail and deliver him to

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Speaker 2: his home. He thanked them for their assistance, but now

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Speaker 2: he had to pay the bill. They couldn't release Chisel

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Speaker 2: from that onerous obligation, and it was an incredibly large

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Speaker 2: sum of money, a total of six thousand pounds that's

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Speaker 2: more than one point five million dollars in today's money, two.

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Speaker 5: Thousand pounds for himself, with four gentlemen vouching for him

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Speaker 5: at one thousand pounds each, six thousand pounds a wild

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Speaker 5: amount of money. I mean, one thousand pounds in Virginia

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Speaker 5: for a working class person is considered an insurmountable debt.

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Speaker 8: Ah what he has to pay two thousand and then

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Speaker 8: he's got four other people paying one thousand pounds ease.

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Speaker 5: And who are these other gentrymen, his friends who are

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Speaker 5: doing what everyone else is doing? Hence the credit society.

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Speaker 5: It's the scratch of a pen.

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Speaker 2: Robert means that all five of these men, including Chisel,

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Speaker 2: are just signing their name for credit and promising to

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Speaker 2: pay the note someday.

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Speaker 5: They're not going back to a bank right in withdrawing

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Speaker 5: one thousand pounds. No. No, they are signing their name

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Speaker 5: to a piece of paper, just like you do for

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Speaker 5: many transactions, if not most transactions in Virginia.

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Speaker 2: That was another good illustration of why the colonists in

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Speaker 2: all thirteen colonies were always in debt. It was so

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Speaker 2: easy to borrow money at high interest rates, regardless of

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Speaker 2: the expense. John Chisel had avoided the jail for now,

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Speaker 2: and for him that was certainly worth the price. After

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Speaker 2: Chisel headed home with his lawyers, Sheriff Jesse Thomas turned

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Speaker 2: the carriage around and headed back west alone in Williamsburg,

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Speaker 2: Colonel Chisel's attorney, John Wales, and his colleagues began building

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Speaker 2: their case for self defense. The first part was picking

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Speaker 2: a jury. It's the right of a defendant to be

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Speaker 2: judged by a jury of his peers.

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Speaker 4: So since Colonel Chisel lives hearing Williamsburg, but he's accused

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Speaker 4: of murder out in Montgomery County, Virginia, near Blacksburg at

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Speaker 4: Mosby's Tavern is where the crime took place, would Chisel

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Speaker 4: object to having six jurors come from out west to

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Speaker 4: come and sit on the jury hearing Williamsburg. Because the

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Speaker 4: idea is that who better to know whether or not

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Speaker 4: someone might have committed a crime than that person's neighbors,

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Speaker 4: someone who would be familiar with the circumstances of the crime.

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Speaker 2: Chisel was a resident of Williamsburg, so half of his

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Speaker 2: jury would come from the countryside out west he owns property,

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Speaker 2: and the other half would come from where he lives

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Speaker 2: most of the time. Here's the problem. The wealthy men

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Speaker 2: from the countryside would also be unlikely to convict a

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Speaker 2: member of the gentry. But in the city a juror

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Speaker 2: might be a middle class person who would be less sympathetic.

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Speaker 4: But you're not likely to find some of the same

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Speaker 4: sorts of gentlemen coming from out west as you would

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Speaker 4: find in paneled on a jury hearing Williamsburg.

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Speaker 2: And that revelation began to make people in Williamsburg very angry.

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Speaker 2: A mysterious writer with the pen name d K. Philos

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Speaker 2: began submitting anonymous articles to the newspaper the Virginia Gazette.

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Speaker 2: D K Philos is the Greek phrase for lover of justice.

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Speaker 2: The writer questioned the General Court's decision to grant Chisel bail.

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Speaker 2: They accused Chisel of being privileged, of taking advantage of

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Speaker 2: his high station. The writer was concerned that justice would

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Speaker 2: be derailed, that Chisel would get away with murder, that

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Speaker 2: the jury would be tilted toward Chisel.

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Speaker 5: I'll just read a couple of lines from this di

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Speaker 5: K Felos. He says, some persons have ungenerously surmised that

285
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Speaker 5: the influence of mister Chisel's friends will prevent the truth

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Speaker 5: from being published. But who of his friends have so

287
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Speaker 5: little sense and honor as to desire the suppression of

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Speaker 5: truth and the violation of justice and.

289
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Speaker 2: Government suppression of truth? This phrase might not seem incendiary,

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Speaker 2: but in the eighteenth century it's a big accusation against

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Speaker 2: the gentry.

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Speaker 5: He's not mincing words here, right, this is a different quote.

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Speaker 5: He says. Patriots, however, are alarmed on this occasion. Foreigners

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Speaker 5: are alarmed. The middle and lower ranks of men who

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Speaker 5: are acquainted with the particulars are extremely alarmed. But have

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Speaker 5: they reason for much uneasiness? Ought they not to believe

297
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Speaker 5: that the persons in power will always act rightly.

298
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Speaker 2: A few weeks later, the lead Justice John Blair responded

299
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Speaker 2: to the accusations made by the anonymous writer in the newspaper.

300
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Speaker 2: Blair had penned the reply earlier because he realized just

301
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Speaker 2: how unpopular the court's decision was. Judge Blair said he

302
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 2: believed it to be quote an unhappy, drunken affair, and

303
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Speaker 2: so bail could be offered. It was not. Blair believed murder,

304
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Speaker 2: and he said that English judges were allowed to grant

305
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Speaker 2: bail to murderers if they wished, And that argument goes

306
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Speaker 2: back to the fundamental argument for liberty. We colonists no

307
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Speaker 2: longer want to follow English law. Our system of government

308
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Speaker 2: will be different. Politics was grafted onto crime once again.

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Speaker 2: The government of Virginia was being called into question. Remember

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Speaker 2: in the last episode when we talked about America's first

311
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Speaker 2: murder diagram, the sketch that pinpointed each man's movement, it

312
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Speaker 2: was Decay Fellow who drew up that map to be

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Speaker 2: printed in the newspaper. Who was this anonymous writer, We

314
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Speaker 2: don't know for sure. Some scholars have speculated that he

315
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Speaker 2: was a printer with a grudge against the gentry. During

316
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Speaker 2: our tour, cash Earhart reveals the most popular theory.

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Speaker 4: And it was the Reverend Jonathan Boucher. That's what is suspected,

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Speaker 4: and Boucher was the tutor of George Washington's stepson, John Park.

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Speaker 9: Custis.

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Speaker 2: If the author were really Reverend Jonathan Boucher, then that's

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Speaker 2: a little surprising given his political leanings.

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Speaker 3: The interesting thing about Decephalos and those articles too, especially

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Speaker 3: if it was Jonathan Boucher who wrote it, is you know,

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Speaker 3: in hindsight everyone saying, well, he's a loyalist, so you

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Speaker 3: would think maybe he would side with that old guard

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Speaker 3: as we perceive it. And yet he is the loudest

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Speaker 3: protester of what's happening with the Chissel Rutledge affair. So

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Speaker 3: I think it speaks this idea of patriot and loyalist

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Speaker 3: as we know them in the seventeen sixties don't exist.

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Speaker 2: I asked Cash what Boucher was hoping to accomplish by

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Speaker 2: publishing the articles.

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Speaker 4: He sounds like someone who wants to see the world

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Speaker 4: as he would wish it, instead of the world as

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Speaker 4: it is when this happens. He's publishing those articles under

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Speaker 4: the name of Decephalus pointing out the inconsistencies. This is wrong.

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Speaker 4: You aren't supposed to grant someone bail. The crown's attorney,

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Speaker 4: the attorney general, he should have been here instead of

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Speaker 4: being out of town when this is happening.

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Speaker 2: That's right. The Attorney General made sure he was out

340
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Speaker 2: of town when the depositions were taken, and then when

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Speaker 2: Chisel was granted bail. And here's why he left. The

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Speaker 2: attorney general's name was Peyton, Randolph Chisel's brother in law.

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Speaker 2: Peyton was the brother of Chisel's wife, Elizabeth. Do you

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Speaker 2: see now how well connected John Chisel.

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Speaker 4: Was, So you're beginning to see those fissures that I

346
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 4: was talking about. The status quo is in danger, Yeah,

347
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 4: the status quo is under siege.

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Speaker 2: These essays purportedly from Reverend Boucher, were read by people

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Speaker 2: of all classes across the thirteen colonies and across the

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Speaker 2: ocean in England.

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Speaker 4: The newspaper in Maryland picks up the entire story after

352
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Speaker 4: it's published in the Virginia Gazette. Here in Williamsburging, it

353
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Speaker 4: would have not been unexpected that leaders throughout the different

354
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Speaker 4: colonies subscribed to each colony's newspapers. Taverns also would often

355
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Speaker 4: subscribe to newspapers from the different colonies, and it was

356
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Speaker 4: a common practice to lift entirely what we would think

357
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Speaker 4: of as copying paste articles from other colonies newspapers and

358
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Speaker 4: published in yours. That way, these incidents would have become

359
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 4: pretty well known pretty quickly throughout North America and ultimately

360
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Speaker 4: back in London.

361
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Speaker 2: In ten years, Thomas Pain would write the essay Common Sense.

362
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Speaker 2: It was printed half a million times. In Common Sense,

363
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: Pain argued for independence from England, and it alone convinced

364
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Speaker 2: many colonists that it was time to be free from

365
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Speaker 2: the king. Boucher and his articles were just as powerful

366
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Speaker 2: as Thomas Paine and his essay. Finally, someone explained to

367
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Speaker 2: the masses why John Robinson and John Chisel were the

368
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Speaker 2: avatars for English greed in the Colonies. The abundance of

369
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Speaker 2: information about Rutledge's murder, as well as Chisel's privilege, caused

370
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Speaker 2: incredibly vicious debates and accusations in the papers. Members of

371
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Speaker 2: the Old Guard were actively attacking each other in print.

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Speaker 3: Everything's just bandied about in this messy, nasty, juicy kind

373
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Speaker 3: of way, in the way that I think we all

374
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Speaker 3: still relate to things with news. Right, the dirtier it

375
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: is or the messier it is, the faster we click

376
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Speaker 3: on it.

377
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Speaker 2: Right, same thing, Right, Remember the name of this season

378
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 2: entitled The theme of this season is someone with privilege

379
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: in America escaping justice. It's something we debate in newspapers

380
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 2: today in the media. When is enough enough for a society?

381
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 2: When do they stop being entitled and start being held accountable,

382
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: regardless of their political affiliation. I often talk about how

383
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: lessons resonate with people now, and I'm sure that this

384
00:24:41,320 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: is one of those lessons. The colonists were incensed over

385
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Speaker 2: the details about Chisel's threats towards Rutledge, especially his abusive language,

386
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: and then Chisel claimed that Rutledge was the aggressor and

387
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: that his death was a tragic accident. The public was incredulous,

388
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: but of course they never protested over the fact that

389
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: Chisel threatened to kill his enslaved manservant just for refusing

390
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 2: to bring him a sword.

391
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 3: When you look at the reports of this case, the depositions,

392
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: what's in the newspaper, no one bats a eye about

393
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 3: him threatening to kill his enslaved manservant. That level of

394
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 3: violence is expected. So in that kind of world where

395
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 3: in Williamsburg, where he spends a great deal of time,

396
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 3: over half the population is black, the majority enslaved, and

397
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 3: you have laws essentially saying that if you kill your

398
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 3: enslaved individuals in the process of correction, it's not a felony.

399
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: How much longer does it take until you start to

400
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 3: escalate towards violence of other members of your community. It's

401
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 3: a matter of time.

402
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: The enslaved man servant had been a witness, He had

403
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: been standing right there when Rutledge was killed. He was

404
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 2: friend to neither man. Perhaps he was an unbiased opinion

405
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 2: that could be valuable in the murder case. No, said

406
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 2: Virginia's government.

407
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: Would he have testifying, No, because no person of color

408
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: is allowed to testify against a white person. In a

409
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 3: court of law, wow in the eighteenth century.

410
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: So this is so if it doesn't affect them.

411
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: That's correct. Yeah.

412
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: As the summer months waned and the autumn of seventeen

413
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 2: sixty six approached, so did Colonel John Chisel's murder trial

414
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 2: in Williamsburg. It was set to begin on August sixteenth,

415
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: and John Chisel was very restless.

416
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: I think as we move further into this very hot,

417
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 3: sticky summer, and we know it was a hot, sticky

418
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 3: summer because of some of the other reports in the

419
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 3: newspaper that year along with his murder case. You know,

420
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 3: they mentioned at one point in late July, beginning of August,

421
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 3: he's come back from his lead minds.

422
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: Newspaper writers had followed Chisel since the story had broken.

423
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: The papers reported that he had visited his lead mines

424
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: in late July, and at the beginning of August, Nicole

425
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: Brown says that was outrageous. Why was he allowed to

426
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: go anywhere?

427
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 3: So not only was he brought to Williamsburg and then

428
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: given bail, he was allowed to go back out to

429
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 3: the western part of Virginia to check his minds. And

430
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 3: they said, well, we hope you just come back by

431
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: October sixteenth, When your trial.

432
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: Is It was almost as if Chisel had been allowed

433
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: to simply return to business as usual. John Chisel greeted

434
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 2: his wife Elizabeth inside their home on East Francis Street.

435
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 2: His bedrooms and dining room were filled with valuable objects

436
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 2: that demonstrated his wealth and power. He had hosted some

437
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 2: of the most important people in the colonies and England.

438
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: They had dined on oysters, sheep's head, and curried chicken.

439
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: Spices were a luxury good. They sipped chocolate drinks and

440
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: told old stories over elaborate multi course meals. Chisel was

441
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: free of shackles, but the working class people in Williamsburg

442
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: had heard that he was offered bail, and he took it.

443
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: The people also remembered that Chisel's son in law, John Robinson,

444
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: had stolen a fortune and caused Virginia to sink further

445
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: into debt. Chisel had broken their trust. In all the while,

446
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: the King of England was tightening his grip on the colonies.

447
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: Parliament had taxed them, their rights were being taken away,

448
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: and now John Chisel had been released on bail by

449
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: his powerful friends. He was free, and they were furious.

450
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: People stalked his house, and those who protested his release

451
00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: were certain that he would get away with murder. Chisel

452
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: was free, but miserable. He still maintained that it was

453
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: just an accident.

454
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 8: I mean, I think he's racked with guilt, but whether

455
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 8: it's entirely guilt for the murder or guilt for what

456
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 8: he has done to his family's reputation, yeah, I am

457
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 8: not comfortable separating those strains of guilt. But I think

458
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 8: they're interconnected, and I don't know which one is stronger.

459
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 8: And that's one of the really intriguing things about the

460
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 8: history and getting all the pieces of information that other

461
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 8: historians may want to say something more definitive than I'm saying,

462
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 8: but that's, you know, that's interpretation, and that's part of

463
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 8: why learning about the people, not just the dates, is

464
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 8: intriguing to me.

465
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,479
Speaker 2: Angry crowds gathered outside Chisel's large home in Williamsburg and

466
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: demanded vengeance. He and his family could hear them outside

467
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: as guards patrolled their property. Historian Robert Weathers says that

468
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: the colonists were compelled to protest they believed that it

469
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: was the only way to force a change with the gentry.

470
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 5: Precedent needed to be found so the Colonel Chisel could

471
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 5: be brought out on bail. And you see the dangerous

472
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 5: slippery slope effect that actually can have, which is part

473
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 5: of the reason why when you protest against a stamppack,

474
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 5: you're doing so so that it doesn't set a precedent.

475
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: Nicole Brown is sitting with us during my interview with Weathers.

476
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 11: And that's also why people get so upset with the

477
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 11: Chibel Rutledge murder, because if they don't protest it, it

478
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 11: could become precedent that the elite basically can't be tried

479
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 11: for murder.

480
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: In the newspapers, the anonymous writer de Kay Pillows described

481
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: the sentiment of most colonists, and it wasn't good. They

482
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: say that one atrocious murder has already been cleared by

483
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: means of great friends, and they are apprehensive that it

484
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: will not be the last Cobrius stain of the kind

485
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: in our colony. In other words, John Chisel was going

486
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: to get away with murder. The anonymous writer also reported

487
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: that a reliable source had confirmed that several witnesses at

488
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: the tavern had been tampered with. The Colonists in Williamsburg

489
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: screamed that the law was being ignored. If one of

490
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: them had murdered someone, they would have been hanged. Yet

491
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: John Chisel was convinced that he would walk free, and

492
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: so was much of the lower class. The writer explained

493
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: in the newspapers, Patriots are alarmed on this occasion. Foreigners

494
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: are alarmed. The middle and lower ranks of men who

495
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: are acquainted with the particulars are extremely alarmed. In Prince

496
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: George County, where Robert Rutledge lived, there was outrage while

497
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: John Chisel sat comfortably at home. Their friend was dead.

498
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: They demanded his blood, an eye for an eye. The

499
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: anonymous author pleaded with them in the newspapers to wait

500
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: until the trial. Reutligi's friends agreed, but they made it

501
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: clear in letters to the paper that they would seek

502
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: revenge if Chisel were acquitted. Robert Rutlige's friends assumed that

503
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: John Chisel was lounging at home with few worries because

504
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: of his powerful friends, but that really wasn't true. John

505
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: Chisel was extremely worried, and he couldn't bear to spend

506
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: the rest of his life in prison. Mobs of people

507
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: in Williamsburg wanted him hanged. One way or the other.

508
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: There would be no police protection, and he and his

509
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: friends would be lynched if they were caught tampering with witnesses.

510
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: But perhaps he might escape the gallows with attorneys who

511
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: could prove it was an accident or self defense. Or

512
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: perhaps John Chisel and his family could simply disappear. It

513
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: was a big new world with limited communication, after all,

514
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: and historian Nel Darby says people vanished all the time

515
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: in the eighteenth century. You know, men who deserted their wives.

516
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 8: You know they could haply go and disappear and start

517
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 8: new lives afresh.

518
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: Julie Richter wonders about the expectations of both the gentry

519
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: and the upper class in Virginia. After all, Colonel John

520
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: Chisel was an honorable gentleman. Abandoning his family and leaving

521
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: town would have been disgraceful.

522
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 8: There may have been a small bit of belief, or

523
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 8: maybe hope, that he would do the honorable thing, that

524
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 8: he would go home and then return for his trial,

525
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 8: being a man who is again supposed to display honor

526
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 8: in his actions, in his deeds, and in his words.

527
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 8: And if any of the men who agreed to bail

528
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 8: did it believing that he would act honorably. Disappointment against

529
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 8: probably not a strong enough word, but they would have

530
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 8: felt that he had violated the trust they placed in him.

531
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: Perhaps something completely unplanned, even by him, might happen to

532
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: John Chisel. He was fretful, concerned about jail, about a

533
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 2: likely guilty verdict, and about the shame he had brought

534
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: on his family, and he was in danger. So on

535
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: June twenty third, seventeen sixty six, Chisel sat down at

536
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: his desk in Williamsburg and picked up a pen. He

537
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: glanced over the paper as he wrote it. It was

538
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 2: his last will and testament, and it included the most

539
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: important asset in his name, his coveted business, the Lead

540
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: Mining Company. The assets of the mining company included land, carts, wagons, utensils,

541
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: and not surprisingly, enslaved people. Chisel had a minority interest,

542
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: and he was deeply in debt. He owed his partner,

543
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: William Bird the third, thirteen hundred pounds, and he owed

544
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: the estate of John Robinson more than eight thousand pounds.

545
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: As he opened his desk drawer to secure the document,

546
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 2: he thought carefully about the names of the people who

547
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 2: had agreed to be his executors, there was Richard Randolph,

548
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 2: his wife's cousin, who was a wealthy planter. He also

549
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 2: named Charles Carter, a rich plantation owner who had married

550
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: his daughter Elizabeth. But the final two executors were the

551
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: interesting ones, William Byrd and Presley Thornton. These were two

552
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: of the three justices of the General Court who had

553
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: granted him bail. Now did this mean anything? At best,

554
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: it seemed unethical. Even more importantly, their inclusion in his

555
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: will illustrated the depth of their relationship with Chisel. Historian

556
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: Carson Hudson says that the governor of the Colony of

557
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 2: Virginia was in a terrible position.

558
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 6: You know what could the governor and this is another

559
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 6: person I would have hated to have been with the governor.

560
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 6: You know what do you do, because if the case

561
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 6: comes to trial and you find i'm him innocent, you're

562
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 6: literally going to have riots in the colony. If you

563
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 6: find him guilty, then that's going to make you and

564
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 6: all your friends and buddies and all that look really,

565
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 6: really bad, and that's going to lower the respect that

566
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 6: the lower classes have of you.

567
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 3: So by the time we get to October, Colonel Chisel's

568
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 3: case is supposed to occur on October fifteenth, sixteenth, and

569
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 3: I cannot imagine the level of stress he was under

570
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: or the level of stress the city was under. I

571
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: can imagine that the tension was palpable and in this muddy, messy,

572
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 3: icky sort of October in Virginia, because having lived in Virginia,

573
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: October's are sort of bomby sometimes but often still atrociously humid.

574
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: You have this palpable feeling in the air, I would

575
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 3: imagine of what is going to happen.

576
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 5: Chisel, no doubt is well aware of the insults he's

577
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 5: receiving in the new papers.

578
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 8: So if he knew about financial problems after his son

579
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 8: in law died, and you find out about the debt

580
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 8: in addition to your finances, it's sort of like a

581
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 8: self performance has a lot of little elements and debt

582
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 8: and not being able to perform as an elite man,

583
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 8: it's going to be a mental burden, an emotional burden.

584
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: Who would get justice and who else would end up dead?

585
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: We can never really know. But when you look at

586
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: all of these things compounding at the same time, in

587
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 3: addition to the fact that he's being held accountable for them,

588
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 3: I think that's where the stressor is.

589
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 2: On the final episode of this season of tenfold More

590
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: Wicked on exactly right.

591
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 3: To have a gentleman not just behave this way, but

592
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: then the law bend in his favor is such a

593
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 3: violation of trust.

594
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 6: Gentlemen don't do those things, and gentlemen are not found

595
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 6: guilty of murdering peasants.

596
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 5: It is hard for me to overstate to you how

597
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 5: important this individual decision is to the era of the

598
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 5: American Revolution.

599
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 4: In some ways, I would liken it to the United

600
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 4: States in nineteen sixty eight. There are these incidents that

601
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 4: inspire individuals to protest.

602
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 3: To jump between what happens with the Stamp Act all

603
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 3: the way to declaring independence is a chadismic shift. The

604
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 3: only metaphor I can think of is if you're standing

605
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: between two tectonic plates and they start shifting.

606
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,480
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614
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615
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Speaker 2: Nicole Brown, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, artwork

616
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:53,240
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617
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