WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 5 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:02.920 Make sure to check out Drink Champs, your number one 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.280 music podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Host n 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:08.080 O r E and d J E f N sat 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.039 down with artists and icon Yea, which Vulture called one 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:15.760 of most significant interviews. I literally had to go like 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:17.720 Danos and I don't want to have to be the villain. 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.960 But when I went and did the Donda thing, Yea 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.560 returned and anybody had to sit back and watch the 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.600 real leader. Check out Drink Champs Conversation with Yea and 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.560 many more legendary artists each and every Friday on the 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.440 I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.920 to your favorite shows. Raffi is the voice of some 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:44.080 of the happiest songs of our generation, Babyta So, who 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.080 is the man behind Baby Bloga. Every human being wants 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:53.280 to feel respected. When we start with all good things 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.840 can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, new dad 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.560 and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from My 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.800 heart rate Video and Fatherly Listen every Tuesday on the 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.640 I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.640 After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:10.800 of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.479 Pit on the podcast nine O two one o MG. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.600 Visit Jenny Garth and Tory Spelling for a rewatch of 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.119 the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.120 From the very beginning, we get to tell the fans 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:24.960 all of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.640 so they know what happened on camera obviously, but we 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.160 can tell them all the good stuff to happen off camera. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.319 Listen to nine O two one o MG on the 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.200 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.560 your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.640 to let you know. This is a compiletion episode. So 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.360 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.360 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.560 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.040 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.320 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:03.880 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen here, 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.880 a podcast that is on the cycle of being sort 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.440 of Okayley introduced. When this episode goes out, it will 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.520 be Indigenous People's Day and so to to talk about 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.359 that more where we're gonna talk to Dalia Killsback, who 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:22.040 is a member of the Northern Chyenne, has Northern Cheyenne 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.360 tribal citizenship, and has sort of studied and worked in 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.799 federal India tribal policy. Dahlia, Hello, how how are you doing? 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.240 I'm doing well. Thank you for inviting me here today. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.079 Of course Garrison is also here. Garrison Hello, Hello. I'm 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.919 I'm currently also doing writing about indigenous stuff, but within 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.000 the context of Canada, which people should will probably here 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.639 later this week. UM. So yeah, I guess first thing 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.280 I wanted to talk about is a little bit is 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:56.280 about what Indigenous People's Day is and why it is 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.880 that and not the other thing. Um. Yeah. So Indigenous 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:06.160 People's Day, um, as many people know, is replacing I'm 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.200 gonna say it, Chris chrispher Columbus Day. Um, that is 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.640 still like a federal holiday, but multiple cities and states 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.960 have opted to use Indigenous People's Day instead. Um. And 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:23.000 the reasoning for that is acknowledging the atrocities that were 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.560 committed by Christopher Columbus, who first of all, did not 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:33.600 discover America. UM, but um continue to um not only 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:39.680 use slavery, but UM commit different forms of genocide, rape, etcetera, 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.680 all of these terrible atrocities. And so rather than celebrating 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:49.800 UM somebody like that UM, Indigenous people Day UM has 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.600 been implemented in order to recognize the people who are 0:03:53.800 --> 0:04:04.880 actually here first, UM and indigenous people's across the America's there, histories, cultures, 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:11.640 and contributions. Yeah, Columbus, real piece of ship, worst Christopher, Like, yeah, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.960 it really cannot be overstated how bad that guy was, 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.080 even even you know, even people in that era who 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.000 had committed their own genocides like Isabelle and Ferdinand, who 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.320 you know, expelled the Jews from Spain. Where it's like, 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.520 you know, if once you've reached the sentence expelled the 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.159 Jews from X like you you're are You're already in 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.000 the ship list of the worst people in human history. 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.000 And even they saw what Columbus was doing, it was 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:39.880 like what on earth? Bad bad guy, bad name. Things 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:44.400 are going to continue to go badly? And yeah, that 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.160 that was an everything that I wanted to talk about, 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.960 which is federal Indian policy. And you know this this 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:56.040 is an incredibly broad This is an incredibly broad area 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.880 spanning like three hundred years. So we're not gonna be 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:02.720 able to go into like an enormous amount of depth 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.640 in it, but I think it's important that people have 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:11.360 an understanding of, I mean, ages what the US did 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.479 and how everyone else has had the sort of deal 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.240 with it. And then also the fact that this is 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.680 something that changes over time and has has looked different, 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:24.120 It's looked it's been bad in different ways. Yeah, and 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.960 so when talking about federal Indian policy, I always like 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:33.400 to contextualize it within a larger um sort of like 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:38.960 euro American like teleology of colonial conquests, and then moving 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.000 on to set where colonialism and where we are with 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:47.240 federal federal Indian policy currently. Um. So, how do we 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:52.880 connect Christopher Columbus to where we are currently? Um? And 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:57.560 this is the history of federal Indian policy and Western 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:05.040 legal discourse and how UM European powers throughout history have 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.840 defined what it means to be an Indian person in 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:13.640 relationship to UM Indigenous people's rights to their own land 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:18.320 and to self governance. UM. So, when we're looking at 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.279 the different periods of federal Indian policy, UM, prior to 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:27.279 their being the United States government, we have the colonial period, um, 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:33.080 which is fourteen ninety two to seventeen seventies six. UM. 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:38.200 This is how federal Indian policy illegal scholars divide that UM. 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:43.080 And it's really important to kind of give the difference 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.800 between what is um a colonial state versus a settler 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.040 colonial state when you're talking about not just the United 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:54.599 States government but also the Canadian government and UM, different 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:58.080 governments globally. UM. But I want to talk just a 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.839 little bit about what I've by the difference between a 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:08.200 colonial government and a Suttler colonial government, because they're tied together. UM. 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.200 So by a Suttler colonial government, I mean what I 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:18.080 mean is that it is defined by the d territorialization 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.360 of indigenous population populations. And so rather than in a 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.880 colonial government as you had with Christopher Columbus and the 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:30.320 Spanish and with the English, etcetera, UM is rather than 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:37.840 a state and sovereignty being conceived as all these resources 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.360 are going back to the metrical all these resources are 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.480 going back to England or to Spain, etcetera. And colonial 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:51.600 occupation is in is um conceptualized within this way in 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:56.840 settler colonial governments, UM, the colonists come to these lands 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.320 and stay and they're what they define a sovereignty is 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.000 within this land that they define now as their own. 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.640 So and in order for that process to happen, UM, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.040 there needs to be different forms of genocide of the 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.080 indigenous populations. And so that's what we saw with Christopher 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:18.240 Columbus and throughout history, UM was just the depletion of 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:23.040 a lot of our indigenous populous UM. And so when 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:28.200 I mean about the United States UM being a settler 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.440 colonial state, I mean that this is current and ongoing. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.760 And so when we talk about federal Indian policy, UM, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:39.440 Federal Indian policy is always in this conversation with what 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:44.600 started with Christopher Columbus as the doctrine of discovery and UM. 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:49.560 So that's how we define the colonial period. And feel 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.360 free to like stop me and ask me questions. Else 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.080 I'm just going to try to move quickly because there's 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.640 a lot. Yeah, I think we probably should briefly talk 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.599 about what the doctory discovery is, um lacy before we 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.640 get to sit at the martial trilogy and stuff. For sure, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:13.440 what does that actually mean legally? Um? So legally, UM, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.080 it's the discovery of a quote unquote New found Land, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:23.000 UM by European colonial forces. And the reason why it's 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:26.560 called the doctrine of discovery, was that indigenous peoples on 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.520 these lands were deemed unable to govern themselves and they 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:34.440 did not know how to utilize their land up to 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:39.480 the definition of what the European powers thought UM land 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:45.319 use was that UM, indigenous peoples didn't have the same 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:51.560 concept of property UM, and same with their relationship with 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:58.320 resources and resource extraction. So when um, Christopher Columbus and 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.439 all of these other colonizer as clunky clunkyst doors came 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:07.040 to the quote unquote new land, UM, they saw all 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.719 of this rich, plentiful resource and thoughts of themselves, Well, 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.199 obviously these people don't know what they're doing because there's 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.600 just so much they have not done anything with it. UM. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.000 And we're going to take this back to two hours 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:26.360 because obviously their inferior beings and don't know what property 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:33.520 is so UM. Legally, UM, the doctrine of Discovery conveyed 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.200 legal title to an ownership of American soil to European 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.960 nations UM, a title that devolved to the United States 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:47.720 and so UM. This definition is expansive UM, and expansive 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.600 discovery implies that Native nations have a right to lands 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.520 as occupants or possessors, but they are incompetent to manage 0:10:55.520 --> 0:11:00.400 those lands and need a quote unquote benevolent guardian such 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:06.800 as a federal government who holds legal title. And um. 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.920 So when we're talking about this legal title, it devolves 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.880 to the United States later on um in history, after 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:19.960 the American Revolution, um. And so rather than being colonial 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.760 states um as the United States like thirteen original colonies, 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:29.880 given um, the American Revolution and its own constitution and 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:34.800 its creation of itself as a nation state, then that 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:40.680 turns into a settler colonial government. Yeah. I think we can, 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.360 ye know, we can get to what happens next then, 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.760 because yeah, yeah, you have you have this elaborate legal 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.679 framework that lets you steal people's land and murder them 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.880 and then control it. And then the outgrowth of that 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.440 is this sort of weird event where the colonies go 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.840 into rebellion and suddenly, yeah, there's there's not a colony. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.840 They're not colonies anymore. They just are the state. And 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.240 so yeah, about what happens next after the sort of 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:11.000 formation of the United States. So after the formation of 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.559 the United States, UM, so we have this period the 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:19.480 American Revolution. It's all not really diving into It is 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.080 seventeen seventy six to seventeen eighty nine, and it's called 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.000 the Confederation period. But next we have the Trade and 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:30.160 Intercourse Act era, which is from seventeen eighty nine to 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.800 eighteen thirty five. And so this is defined with the 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:39.160 United States Constitution and Congress's exclusive right to regulate trade 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.240 relations and make lands since the land secessions and enter 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:47.800 into treaties with tribes. So this is a treaty making 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.240 era with the tribes that only the United States federal 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.120 government is able to And there's a distinction there because 0:12:55.720 --> 0:13:00.240 there had been a lot of contestation between state and 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.840 the federal government as to who is going to now 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:07.200 deal with these, um, these nations that are with our 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:12.240 within our own settler colonial borders. So whose job is 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:17.840 that to solve this issue? Um? So within the United 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:22.000 States Constitution, there are three clauses that define the United 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.360 States legal relationship to American Indians, and so these are 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:31.400 the treaty making clause, the commerce clause, and the property clause. Um. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:37.360 And so this this movement from just relying on the 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.720 doctrine of discovery and treaty making processes between different European 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.680 powers now is between the United States federal government and tribes. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.960 And so what this does is now tribes are located 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.800 within the United States territory, and this places Indians within 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.240 the boundaries and jurisdiction of the United States, and now 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.559 there're a matter of domestic interest something. It leads it 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.559 to one of the sort of complicated questions that the 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.719 changes to this whole era, which is about what does 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.439 sovereignty mean for these tribes and to what extent to 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.720 the even continue to possess it, and how does that 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.480 even sort of how does that work if you have 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.280 when you have this new state that's sort of just 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.280 has his clan control here, right, And also during this 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:30.520 period UM, well, well later on when we have um 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.720 started jumping ahead of myself, when we have the extermination 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.880 of the treaty making process, and this completely removes seeing 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:45.720 tribes as independent sovereign nations. UM. So I think that 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.160 will kind of get more into that later. But the 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.520 thing with federal Indian policy UM is that it's sort 0:14:54.520 --> 0:15:00.680 of self prophesizing. So as settlers are moving across America, UM, 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:05.200 the United States government also has to create these policies 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:10.160 UM in order to legalize these land cessations and movements. 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.640 And a pattern that we do see here UM throughout 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.600 history and throughout time is that the United States federal government, 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:22.240 as a settler state is um over the rights of 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:28.120 over the UM, rights to land, and rights of indigenous 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.840 peoples themselves. You have a priority of the settler state 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.880 in order to acquire land. So that a lot of 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:40.120 the reason why UM later these treaties will be broken, etcetera, 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.040 is because settlers are moving into these lands and the 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:48.200 United States is then breaking these treaties in order to 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.440 UM have more more land, more land secessions. Yeah, the 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.440 laws are just following the violence, and it's just becomes 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:02.960 a sort of retroactive justification for yeah. Yeah, it's it's 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.120 a self justifying sort of sovereignty. So this is the 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.680 Removal period and what a lot of people may have 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:14.360 heard of. So it's from five to eighteen sixty one, 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.160 and what we have is the extinguishment of Indian title 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.600 to eastern lands and the removal of Indian tribes westward. 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.640 So UM. One of the most notable acts is the 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.960 Removal Act, which was authorized by President Andrew Jackson, which 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.400 moved Um Indians from the east to the west of 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:38.440 the Mississippi River into what was called Indian territory UM. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:43.920 And what brought about this UM Federal Federal Act UM 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.440 was a series of three foundational statutes within Federal Indian 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.600 Policy UM, dictated by Chief Justice John Marshall. So first 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.640 we have Johnson B. Macintosh Cherokee Nation be Georgia and 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.800 Worcester be Georgia. And I won't go into UM too 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:05.440 much detail, but what this these essentially UM did and 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:11.000 legally defined tribes as being domestic dependent nations. And so 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:16.600 it clarified more that again tribal nations are underneath the 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:21.600 federal government's overview, not the states. So yeah, it placed 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.119 tribes above state jurisdiction. And what this was trying to 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:29.600 do was UM solve some issues that tribes such as 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.680 the Cherokee Nation had with different states when it came 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:38.439 to land and UM jurisdiction over suid land. UM. But 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:43.320 that is kind of the basis of a lot of 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.199 federal Indian policy and still remains true day. And what 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:51.280 is notable UM in each one of these statutes UM, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:57.000 I believe, particularly in Worcester the Georgia, although it seems 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.440 that it was supporting tribal sovereignty in them and that 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:06.639 they were above state jurisdiction. A lot of these um 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:11.879 statute sided racist President and the doctrine of Discovery. So 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:14.679 what you see for federal Indian policy is that a 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.800 lot of the fount well all the foundation for federal 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.600 Indian policy based on President is the doctrine of Discovery, 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:26.120 which is reliant on the idea that American Indians were 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:33.119 savages and needed um federal benevolence and um paternalism in 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:38.720 order to regulate their own affairs. Yeah, and I think 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.520 that's well, okay, we should probably not just immediately get 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.560 to allotment, but yeah, because there's this, there's this, there's 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.000 also yeah, this is also the period of use. Yeah. 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:48.320 The thing you were talking about earlier is the thing 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.960 you helped me know about, which is, okay, it's not 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.320 true to say this is when this starts, but this 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:59.399 is Indian Removal Act, Trail of Tears territory. And one 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:00.840 thing that you know, I think one of one of 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.560 the sort of running themes of this is that, you know, 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.880 the the law in this context is just sort of 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:11.080 becomes a sort of retroactive excuse to do whatever needs 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.280 to be done from the perspective of quote unquote of 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:15.720 the sort of of the settler state to just take 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:20.080 all of this land. Yeah. And I think maybe like 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:24.320 one of the keystones of this is Andrew Jackson just 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.920 straight up tellings between court to funk Off so that 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.920 he can do so he can do with trail of tears. Yeah. UM. 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:38.520 So the Removal Act happened after all of these statutes 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:43.280 that you already had that supported UM federal Indian sovereignty. 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.439 And so the Cherokees in Georgia were one of the 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:52.240 tribes that were removed. UM. And so you kind of 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:57.600 see what you talked about, the the retrograde kind of 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:02.439 justifications for said removal to spite UM the statutes that 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:08.160 are there. So although that like Marshall UM in Worcester 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.960 b Georgia determined that the State of Georgia did not 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:15.080 have jurisdiction over Cherokee territory, all this territory although this 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:18.840 territory was in the state's borders. UM. Later on you 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:24.200 see with the Removal Act that although these statutes are 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:30.240 still president in Federalian policy, those were noll in order 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:35.119 for UM there to be more UM expansion of settlers 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:39.480 within these areas. So when it was decided that oh, wait, 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:41.960 we do need this land and we don't actually want 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.800 these Indians here, Let's put them to the side, over 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.480 past the Mississippi so that they're out of sight, out 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.040 of mind. Right, So we see more of this um 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:56.120 justification for settler expansion. And so again we bring back 0:20:56.119 --> 0:21:00.240 to these themes of like settler colonialism and or are 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:04.160 too um kind of gain more of this land. And 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.240 a lot of these statutes are still cited the doctrine 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:13.480 of discovery in them and rather than supporting tribal policy, 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.720 the relationship between the United States federal government and American 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:22.000 Indians um was not based on the rights of Indians, 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:26.240 but more that they can't they can't govern themselves, right 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.240 and so so and that's the whole issue is like 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.359 people are like they don't know what they're doing, so 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.840 we're gonna push them and like take their land again. 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:37.399 So I I don't know if you want me to 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:42.119 go too much into the trail of tears, but um, 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.840 you're seeing a lot of patterns here, I think different 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.800 forms of genocide, different forms of taking land. And this 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:50.560 was this is all around the same time as the 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.200 Indian acting Canada as well, which was did a very 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:59.040 similar thing, especially starting in the starting in the twenties 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.199 century as well, with the like expansion of the like 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.840 assimilation programs. Yeah, and I think I guess the one 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:08.680 only thing I want to point out about this is that, 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:10.240 you know, so one of one of the things that 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.520 happens trailers here is at the Streme Court like tells 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.080 Jackson that he can't do this, and she actually just 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.240 does it anyways. And I think that's a very interesting 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.320 important moment because you know, this is this is this 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.359 thing right where the federal government can tell there's a 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:28.480 Preme Court to funk off, right, and there's nothing that 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.720 Streme Court could do about it. And if you look 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.119 at what they did it to do, the thing they 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:37.520 did it to do was genocide. And it's I think 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:39.000 it's it's just I think it's a very sort of 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:43.320 I don't know, this incredibly grim like you know, encapsulation 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:46.480 of like what this state actually is, which is the 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.119 sort of genocide machine and whatever sort of you know, 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:51.040 this is what sovereignty is, right, the ability to break 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:52.760 your own rules to sort of main instit or to 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:54.800 maintain the system. So you know, you you break your 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:57.480 own laws and you know, as we're gonna get to 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.000 in a second, like you break your own treaties continuous 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.320 and you do this because you know, the ganslit massion 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:06.560 has to keep moving right And Um. There's a couple 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:11.600 of federal and new policy theorists um Bindeler Jr. Who's 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:14.000 one of the most famous ones, and David E. Wilkins 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.520 who talks about how there's no need for checks and 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:22.040 balances within the federal Ondian policy system. So you have 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:26.800 Congress that is able to um pass whatever act they want, 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:31.199 and and then you also have the Supreme Court, and 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:34.840 then you also have executive action. But it wasn't really 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:39.760 delineated that well um within especially when it comes to 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.040 this period as to who is going to be dealing 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.600 with the Indians kind of thing. Um. And so this 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:51.520 kind of confusion and not really completely defining what it 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:55.439 means to be a domestic dependent nation, I think really 0:23:55.480 --> 0:24:00.920 just goes to show how much of a fragile edifice 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:06.520 settler um colonial policy is, for it is within the system. Um. 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:10.439 But again moving on, it comes back again to land. 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:15.159 So the reservation area era in eighteen sixty one to 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:19.520 eighteen eighty seven UM has you have a lot of 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:25.200 westward expansion of non Indians UM settlers, specifically to California. 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:29.800 You also have the creation of Indian reservations and resulting 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:35.439 Indian wars UM. Uh. So during this era what you 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.439 see a lot out of UM are different types of 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:43.080 attempts that assimilation UM and a lot of warfare. So 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:45.679 you have a lot of the Plains tribes my tribe 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:50.159 for instance, UM, that are going through all of these 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:56.560 battles fighting UM forced removal onto reservations UM. One of 0:24:56.600 --> 0:25:01.000 the most famous ones was UM the Bad of Greasy 0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:04.359 Grass or a Little Big Horn UM where General Custer 0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:10.240 was killed by Sue Cheyennes and Arapahos, and different instances 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:13.920 of battles such as those, and also where a lot 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:20.080 of tribes UM were forcibly removed to era areas that 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:23.920 they weren't originally from. So like how the Ripees were 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:28.159 moved to Oklahoma, there was attempts of my tribe, for instance, 0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:31.560 more than Cheyenne to be moved down to Oklahoma as well, 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:36.000 and that's why there's some Southern Cheyennes in Oklahoma, and 0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:40.920 then My tribes and Northern Shiance in Montana. Another UM in. 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:44.800 Another thing that is happening during this period are boarding 0:25:44.840 --> 0:25:48.600 schools UM the boarding school era. So this attempt at 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:55.679 assimilation through education UM, and assimilation is also UM within 0:25:55.920 --> 0:26:01.040 within the settler colonial kind of structure. It's defined as 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:04.399 a process where indigenous people end up UM conforming to 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:11.840 different constructed notions of UM settler norms UM. So if 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:15.600 they're not absorbed within the state completely, then their attempted 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:22.280 attempt to be assimilated UM culturally UM through education, through languages, 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.320 in terms of economics and how you have a bunch 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:30.600 of different sort of bureaucratic structures on these reservations trying 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:39.320 to make tribal governments appear to be UM or constructed 0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:44.600 as as settler colonial governments are UM. So maybe it's 0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:49.560 the three branches UM in ways that aren't just compatible 0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:55.480 with different tribes culturally. And you also have the attemptive 0:26:55.480 --> 0:27:00.199 eradication of different kind of spiritual and cultural practices is 0:27:00.920 --> 0:27:06.359 and a lot of Christianity be course on to different 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:09.919 people and just kind of terrible things that UM. I 0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:13.480 think more and more people are becoming aware of due 0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:16.320 to due to current movements, but we'll get into that 0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:20.080 more later. Do we want to talk about a lot 0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:22.280 and briefly because if I remember quickly, this is in 0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:27.920 the same period, yes, a lotment period and UM course assimilation. 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:31.440 So this is like eighteen seventy one to nineteen thirty four, 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:33.840 and so this is the end of the treaty making process. 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:39.600 So the whole idea of UM trying to force tribes 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:44.480 onto reservations and sign these treaties were too again take 0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:47.000 land and make sure that the United States has more 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:51.400 land and all the land etcetera that they possibly have UM. 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:58.280 So at this end of treaty making UM, federal allotment 0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:03.000 of Indian lands also happened in the UM the DAWs 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:08.720 Act UM. And so what this was was an attempt 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:15.280 to UM further shrink the reservation lands that tribes are 0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:21.879 already guaranteed within treaties UM. So during this period, I 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:27.679 think that somewhere like nine million acres were UM taken 0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:31.359 from travel reservations during the allotment process. So that what 0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:35.040 the allotment process did was it counted each in every 0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:39.800 individual Indian UM that was eligible. I think there were 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:47.320 adults UM. Yeah, adults that were eligible UM, and each 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:49.880 one of them were given a certain parcel of land 0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:55.400 a certain number of acreage UM. And once all of 0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:59.200 this land was calculated, what you had was an excess 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:02.360 of land quote unquote excess of land that the tribes 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:06.520 obviously didn't need because they had still too too many people. 0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:11.240 And so what the excess of land um was utilized 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:15.720 force for pioneers and for settlers UM. If it didn't 0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:21.080 go UM to the federal government, it was to um 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:29.120 incentivize settlers to colonized essentially centil on Indian lands. So 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:34.720 trying its hardest to not stay true to its treaty 0:29:34.800 --> 0:29:38.320 making practices. I think everything goes interesting to me about 0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:41.000 this is that like because one of the other goals 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:42.480 of this is to sort of like, oh is the 0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:44.520 civilizing mission is like, yeah, we're going to turn them 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:48.440 into We're gonna turn these people into like like human farmers, 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.440 like true American finteersman or whatever. And it's just like 0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:55.120 it just doesn't work because economically it doesn't make any sense, 0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:58.200 like breaking up all these like lands. It's like, it 0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:00.880 doesn't you can't just give someone a small patch of 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:03.480 like shitty land and have them farm like this doesn't 0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:07.120 like this, it doesn't it doesn't like they certainly tried 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:09.360 and the yeah, yeah, like that was one of the 0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:12.400 main things. One of the main things in Canada was 0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:17.880 about getting them to adopt like like European farming practices, 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:22.080 which which they already knew how to get their own food, right, 0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:25.520 they were trying to change this whole system of of 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:27.800 of like of of food growth to to this like 0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:31.040 to to this European way of of farming, and it 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:34.120 just and they were just forcing them to and there's yeah, 0:30:34.160 --> 0:30:37.800 it's it's it gets, it gets, it gets super, it 0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:40.760 gets super like dark and horrible. Once you like look 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:43.040 at like the letters that were being written by like 0:30:43.120 --> 0:30:47.120 the heads of these programs, um, like you know, instructing 0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:50.400 like these agents were stationed at these like reservation that 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.400 to like force people to be doing doing this horrible 0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:57.880 farming for like all day every day. And I think, 0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:00.760 you know the sign that this is like like this 0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:05.680 is this is so bad that even the US government 0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:08.600 eventually is like wait this this like this is fucked 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.840 up and doesn't work. So I think that's yeah, your 0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:18.040 transition to sort of like the next phase, I guess, yeah, 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:21.560 a very short phase. Um. Yeah, So the next phase 0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:26.160 um is the Indian reorganization Act. And so this only 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:30.280 lasted six years from nineteen thirty four in nineteen forty UM, 0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:32.960 so this is when allotment ended. As you said, the 0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:35.800 United States government was like, wait, this isn't working. Um, 0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:38.960 what else can we do with the Indians aren't dying off, 0:31:39.280 --> 0:31:42.120 they're not assimilating, they're not a culturating. We don't know 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:46.440 what to do with them. Um, so maybe we'll We'll 0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:50.760 have them adopt these constitutions and a lot of them 0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:55.440 were just templates, so regardless of whether or not they 0:31:55.480 --> 0:32:02.800 were um I think compatible with tribal different tribes way 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:06.800 of life, they were like, you have these constitutions. Now, um, 0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:09.720 now you're you're a tribe and this is what each 0:32:09.760 --> 0:32:11.840 tribe has to look like in order for us, the 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:16.400 federal government to recognize you as a legitimate entity. Uh 0:32:16.480 --> 0:32:20.440 and um. And then so you have the establishment of 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:24.440 these um tribal governments that consist of tribal councils and 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:30.760 the business committees, etcetera. However, this period is fleeting, very fleeting. Um. 0:32:31.040 --> 0:32:35.560 And next, um, you have the termination era. So this 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:41.160 is the period of time where the federal government, essentially 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:44.000 even more so, wants to just get rid of the 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:47.560 quote unquote Indian problem, which is the existence of indigenous 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:54.400 people's UM that are reminders to the government essentially that UM, 0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:56.560 they are a settler colonial force and they don't know 0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:59.840 what to do with us because they tried to commit genocide, 0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:05.080 they try to remove us, etcetera, etcetera. It's still not working. UM. 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:10.760 They decided that our travel governments UM aren't aren't legitimate, 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:15.600 and they just decide, well, it's too much to try 0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:18.720 to keep up with our treaties and what we promised 0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:24.080 them when it comes to healthcare, education, housing, etcetera, etcetera. 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:28.840 How about we terminate our federal responsibility, our trust responsibility 0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:31.720 that are delineated in federal in the policy and in 0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:34.920 our treaties UM and give them off to this to 0:33:35.040 --> 0:33:37.400 the states to decide what to do with. And so 0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:41.880 during this period you see UM sort of the federal 0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:49.280 um dissolution of some tribes such as the monomy Um 0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:57.120 and other ones UM as well. So this is another 0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.160 dark time. They're the dark times just keep on coming. 0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:06.000 And what federal policy scholars have UM characterized federal around 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.319 policy as a pendulum, the swinging swinging from side to 0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:15.440 side between this terminate this termination of tribes. So the 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:17.840 federal India government as trying to get rid of tribes, 0:34:18.320 --> 0:34:21.160 especially as you can see in this era, and then 0:34:21.400 --> 0:34:24.120 the pendulum of the other side of self determination. But 0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:27.520 both of these are held within the context of goals 0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:35.439 of assimilation. So, um, this is just another phase of terribleness. Well, 0:34:35.560 --> 0:34:38.200 I think this this phase also like one thing I 0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:41.680 think that also like is important people understand. Is it 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:45.440 like like it's not like people aren't fighting this like 0:34:45.560 --> 0:34:48.439 the whole time. I mean even going like even going 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:50.600 back to the stuff the Seventh Cafrey, like the Seventh 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:54.359 Cavalry lose like bores Day lose bells all the time. 0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:58.040 People are fighting constantly, and this is this period determination 0:34:58.040 --> 0:35:02.120 period is also you see the rise of the American 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:05.080 Indian movements. Yeah, a lot of these periods can be 0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:10.120 like dove into more and all of these different things. Um. 0:35:10.160 --> 0:35:13.440 In every instance, in every instance of federal Indian policy, 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:17.960 you have resistance, which we are not covering here right now. Um, 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:23.120 but you have instances throughout history where indigenous peoples have 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:27.759 fought for their rights to land, to um, for their community, 0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:32.840 to being sovereign nations, etcetera. And that's why the federal Indians, 0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:36.280 the federal government not federal Indian government. The federal government 0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:40.040 has not been able to eradicate us, much to their 0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:45.520 dismay UM UM. And so now I'm going to switch 0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:49.319 into the eraw that we are considered to be in, 0:35:49.440 --> 0:35:53.360 which I have mentioned when I talked about the pendulum 0:35:53.400 --> 0:35:56.440 of federal Indian policy. So now we are in the 0:35:56.480 --> 0:36:02.520 self determination era UM, which began in ninety sixty two UM, 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.120 and we have UM the right it's characterized with the 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:10.200 revitalization of tribal entities. So UM going kind of back 0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:13.759 to when there was the Indian Reorganization Acts that we 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:17.800 have our tribal councils UM. There's restoration of some tribes 0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:22.680 under federal recognition who were terminated, again not all of them. 0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:27.640 We also have the Indian Civil Rights Act, so this 0:36:27.640 --> 0:36:34.920 this kind of guaranteed individual Indians UM some rights UM, 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:38.520 not just characterized by their tribes. Also the self determination policy, 0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:43.440 so this is when UM Nixon condemned the termination policy 0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:48.640 and gave more control to Indians rather than the Bureau 0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:51.839 of Indian Fairs, which just a federal bureau and just 0:36:51.960 --> 0:36:56.719 kind of like other policies that UM have given the 0:36:56.760 --> 0:37:01.600 tribes more rights to UM German for themselves in their 0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:05.680 own trust, their own people, UM to a certain degree 0:37:06.000 --> 0:37:09.480 underneath the federal government as mess of dependent nations. And 0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:13.600 again I I think that we have seen a lot 0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:19.480 more movement, but within the context of being within a 0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:25.520 settler colonial state. UM. It's always I think a possibility 0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:29.120 that the federal Indian government, or the federal government I 0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:34.440 keep saying Indian, the federal government will try UM to 0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:38.719 take more and more. And I think UM, for instance, 0:37:39.560 --> 0:37:44.200 when it comes to issues of fishing rights, issues of 0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:48.200 UM hunting rights with states, not even just with the 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:51.480 federal government. So you have a lot of states throughout 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:56.160 throughout history but still ongoing UM that attempt to encroach 0:37:56.360 --> 0:38:01.480 on tribal treaties UM. And again, treaties are the basis 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:07.239 of federal Indian policy. Without these treaties, that lands would 0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:10.800 have never been succeeded to the United States. And so 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:18.000 UM there's just this sort of like legal legal conundrum 0:38:18.200 --> 0:38:21.960 I would say, of where all these all treaties in 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:24.560 the history of the United States with Indian with Indian 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:28.640 tribes have been broken in some way, shape or form UM. 0:38:28.680 --> 0:38:33.680 But still UM American Indians have to live on their 0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:37.440 reservations instead of having their their land back. And so 0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:42.760 nowadays a lot of movement has been towards um land 0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:45.680 back what this means? What is this process? And I 0:38:45.680 --> 0:38:48.280 think it means a lot of different things for different 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:54.960 people Indigenous people because again there's there's seventy four federally 0:38:54.960 --> 0:39:00.480 recognized tribes and so it's not one monolith of ideas 0:39:00.520 --> 0:39:03.160 and monolith of the beliefs. But by just by saying 0:39:03.320 --> 0:39:06.759 land back, that's like recognition that this is our this 0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:10.080 was our land first, and you're not keeping your side 0:39:10.080 --> 0:39:13.680 of the deal and never have been. Could you maybe 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:16.440 go a bit more into land back with the topic, 0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:18.880 because like specifically, like the past five years, it has 0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:24.000 really gain a lot more like um popularity as like 0:39:24.040 --> 0:39:28.560 a slogan UM. But I think for a lot of 0:39:29.000 --> 0:39:32.520 a lot of people who chanted and here it don't 0:39:32.560 --> 0:39:35.480 always really know exactly what it means. That there's a 0:39:35.480 --> 0:39:40.040 lot of like mixed opinions on what it means. Um. 0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:42.359 Of course, on like the more like reactionary side, it's 0:39:42.400 --> 0:39:44.640 like people be like, what you're going to like kick 0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:47.279 white people out of these areas, Like that's kind of 0:39:47.440 --> 0:39:49.440 that's what a lot of like the reactionary takes on 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:53.040 land Back is. Um And I'm sure most people are 0:39:53.080 --> 0:39:56.040 listening to this podcast that's not what they think, um, 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:59.640 But they may not really know exactly what it means either. Um. 0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:01.560 They may I think it sounds like a good idea, 0:40:02.000 --> 0:40:03.799 but they're not quite sure what it is. Do you 0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:06.120 mind kind of talking about how land back is like 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:10.239 developed as as an idea and what like what like 0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:13.719 you mean by it personally? At least? Yeah, I think 0:40:13.719 --> 0:40:15.879 I can talk about more about like what I mean 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:18.640 by it personally and what I've understood it to mean 0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:24.640 to other people, because I think, um, land back itself, 0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:26.839 it means like a lot of different things, and I 0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:32.640 don't think that there has been a concrete kind of 0:40:32.680 --> 0:40:35.960 idea of what it means. But I think a lot 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:38.560 of the movement, I want to contextualize it within a 0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:43.439 lot of the sort of act activism that we've seen 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:47.200 in their recent years. UM. So, for instance, no Jack 0:40:47.239 --> 0:40:50.040 all the Dakota Access pipeline in two thousand and sixteen, 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:54.360 and kind of I think that's one of the more 0:40:55.080 --> 0:40:58.960 recent events that have really illustrated on a wide scale, 0:40:59.120 --> 0:41:06.520 like globally about indigenous movements, UM, sovereignty movements, and especially 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:10.120 when it comes to environmental justice. But what you saw 0:41:10.239 --> 0:41:17.240 there was encroachment on tribal treaty land within UM that 0:41:17.480 --> 0:41:20.359 when it had to do with the Dakota Access pipeline. UM. 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:24.640 So although it didn't cross some of the current reservation borders, 0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:27.800 it was in treaty land, you know that kind of thing. 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:30.279 The same the same thing was stop line three. How 0:41:30.320 --> 0:41:33.120 it encroached on like the hunting land and the farmland 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:37.040 that was not technically in the like residential like like 0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:39.600 um like like not in like the reservation area where 0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:42.759 people live, but it's in the surrounding area that is 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:46.520 for hunting that is specified in the treaty. So people 0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:49.040 trying to use these loopholes to get the pipelines through 0:41:49.800 --> 0:41:51.799 right right. And so I think what you see is 0:41:51.840 --> 0:41:56.720 a lot of solidarity across tribes because this is not new, 0:41:57.040 --> 0:42:00.239 This has never been new, and a lot of abs 0:42:00.280 --> 0:42:02.920 can relate to that. And what you've seen and what 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:06.080 I've hoped that I've highlighted throughout this kind of very 0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:11.080 brief overview of federal ving policy is the different ways 0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:17.719 that indigenous rights to land and sovereignty has been attacked 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:22.759 in different forms by settler and colonial governments. Um. And 0:42:22.840 --> 0:42:25.520 I think that the day and age that we live 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:30.560 in now has allowed for um sort of more widespread solidarity, 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:34.839 especially over social media. UM. And so when we say 0:42:35.000 --> 0:42:39.440 land back for me, how I interpret it as what 0:42:39.480 --> 0:42:43.160 people mean when they're saying it is recognition of our 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:46.359 tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land that has 0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:51.720 not been respected. And then I also think that it means, well, 0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:55.879 if these treaties aren't being respected, then how is this 0:42:55.960 --> 0:43:00.960 treaty still UM valid? Right? How we aren't getting our 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:03.880 land back because they're not upholding your end of the deal. 0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:07.719 While some people also might mean and recognize that this 0:43:07.800 --> 0:43:12.080 whole United States government is a settler state right based 0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:18.800 on the doctrine of discovery, which is based on denying 0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:25.399 tribes and American Indians of their rights to this land. UM. 0:43:25.520 --> 0:43:27.359 So some people might take it to this whole other 0:43:27.480 --> 0:43:30.319 context of yeah, well maybe this is this is all 0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:34.160 of our land, etcetera, etcetera. But in practice, what does 0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:36.839 this look like? And I think in practice a lot 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:42.600 of people UM are seeing it with reparations or people 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:45.760 buying land back for tribes and giving it back to tribes. 0:43:46.120 --> 0:43:49.120 And we have seen some of that or UM also 0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:53.040 just people interrupting the narrative UM in their own mind 0:43:53.040 --> 0:43:58.120 of their euro American identity, so not non UM American 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:03.279 Indians and primarily europe and settlers and their history of 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:07.080 their own families taking part of the settler colonial process, 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:10.799 and how has that UM what about their lands? There's 0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:17.239 everyone who UM descends I guess from these these settlers, 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:19.160 and I want to be specific when I'm talking about 0:44:19.160 --> 0:44:23.800 Euro American settlers um, UM and how they currently benefit 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:28.879 from these systems. And I think by saying land back, UM, 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:33.719 it's we're able to highlight this movement for tribal sovereignty 0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:37.640 and recognition on a global scale instead of searching for 0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:42.160 justice within the quote unquote like UM searching for justice 0:44:42.200 --> 0:44:44.600 within the courts of the conqueror, How how do we 0:44:44.600 --> 0:44:48.520 expect UM for the conqueror to be held accountable for 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:52.080 all of these atrocities, attempts at genocide, assimilation, et cetera. 0:44:53.000 --> 0:44:55.400 By taking it more towards a global scale, such as 0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:59.080 no adaptle highlighting these two other people as these are 0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:04.759 injustices is UM, this is this is ongoing genocide. I 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:09.400 think that land back has many like a plethora of 0:45:09.520 --> 0:45:13.919 meanings in the in that sense. Yeah. Yeah, I hope 0:45:13.920 --> 0:45:17.640 that answers your question. I myself, UM might use it 0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:24.120 in in some some different ways. Um, because land as 0:45:24.239 --> 0:45:28.440 we conceive it to be property kind of grew that 0:45:28.480 --> 0:45:34.040 concept grew in conversation with Euro American Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:38.680 conceptions of property. So I think that, um, moving forward 0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:41.840 when we talk about de colonization as a process and 0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:47.680 not like a metaphor, um that thinking of land back 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:52.120 not within that whole idea of your American property as well. 0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:56.400 That's that's kind of another thing to consider. Yeah, I 0:45:56.400 --> 0:45:58.600 think I think Lena would just be a hold other 0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:04.000 thing that will pay someone more qualified than our team 0:46:04.120 --> 0:46:08.680 to talk about on this show. Um. Because yeah, that's 0:46:08.680 --> 0:46:10.959 definitely like you know, like all of the things we've 0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:15.440 we've discussed, they deserve their own deep dives by people 0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:20.719 that are uh not me, Robert and Chris. UM. Let's see, 0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:25.160 is is there any kind of resources either books or 0:46:25.280 --> 0:46:28.400 stuff online that you would recommend for people wanting to 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.040 learn more about this history? Um? And then any kind 0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:35.800 of ways to I don't know, I guess show support 0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:38.000 in these and these kind of like efforts that are 0:46:38.000 --> 0:46:42.759 going on. Yeah, for sure. UM. So in terms of 0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:50.360 resources and reading UM, I have read Lorenzo Verrocchini's UM 0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:54.600 Settler book on Settler Colonialism. UM. That's really helpful when 0:46:54.600 --> 0:46:58.560 you're trying to understand that framework in terms of getting 0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:02.400 to know kind of or the basics of like current 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:08.800 UM issues impacting tribes UM. The National Congress of American 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:12.560 Indians does a lot of work on the federal level. UM. 0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:15.839 If you want to talk more about UM kind of 0:47:15.880 --> 0:47:22.200 lived current lived experiences of American Indians, there's illuminatives UM 0:47:22.280 --> 0:47:26.239 and getting more involved in those as well. I think 0:47:26.280 --> 0:47:30.160 that they have some tips, but I would recommend UM 0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:33.120 everyone getting more familiar with the land that they are 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.880 on currently, the tribes within their states, and what they 0:47:36.920 --> 0:47:40.520 can do UM, not just on the local level, but 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:44.920 on the state level to support tribal sovereignty UM. Because 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:48.560 a lot of issues UH. For instance, I worked UM 0:47:49.080 --> 0:47:51.480 on the on the state policy level in Washington and 0:47:51.520 --> 0:47:55.240 in Montana, and both of those have a significant amount 0:47:55.280 --> 0:48:00.520 of tribes UM. But you have a lot of legislation 0:48:00.600 --> 0:48:04.800 that's trying to happen that infringes on tribal treaty. Rights. 0:48:04.840 --> 0:48:09.319 And the thing is is UM as ugly as it 0:48:09.400 --> 0:48:17.640 maybe to say, but sometimes voices of non indigenous people's 0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:22.880 are listened to more within those UM contexts. So you 0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:26.759 need to get more involved on on those levels. UM 0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:32.919 what sort of like at UM nonprofit organizations UM work 0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:36.200 with your tribes or and what sort of issues are 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:39.719 impacting tribes. And again these are all gonna probably be 0:48:39.880 --> 0:48:48.680 surrounding travel sovereignty, so maybe it's UM fishing access, hunting rights, etcetera. UM. 0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:50.759 I think that's a really good way to make some 0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:55.800 more palates UM tangible change, to feel like you're doing 0:48:55.840 --> 0:49:00.000 something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating your 0:49:00.000 --> 0:49:03.040 your self and making sure that their voices are at 0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:07.600 the forefront. And that's also applicable to the federal level, 0:49:08.440 --> 0:49:11.439 especially with as you already said, like stop line three 0:49:11.480 --> 0:49:17.920 in Minnesota, contacting your legislators, etcetera, etcetera. And I think 0:49:18.640 --> 0:49:22.600 also with when it comes to one of one of 0:49:22.640 --> 0:49:28.200 the larger issues besides UM environmental justice for indigenous peoples 0:49:28.280 --> 0:49:31.240 such as pipelines, you have right now missing a murdered 0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:37.200 indigenous women, UM, so looking and looking into that UM 0:49:37.239 --> 0:49:39.560 a little bit more and who you can support who's 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:46.560 addressing those issues. Along with UM, there is another movement 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:51.560 with boarding schools right now because there's been a lot 0:49:51.600 --> 0:49:57.920 of UM bodies of young children UM that have been uncovered. 0:49:58.080 --> 0:50:03.359 And this is not an issue that happened a long 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:06.840 long time ago, like for instance, my grandmother went to 0:50:06.960 --> 0:50:12.120 a boarding school. UM. There's still schools that UM although 0:50:12.120 --> 0:50:16.000 they're not called boarding schools right now that we're boarding schools, 0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:19.480 but are still an operation under different names, etcetera. UM. 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:23.839 So kind of familiarizing yourself with those histories. And then 0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:28.879 also there's a UM national UM I think it's called 0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:34.440 the National Boarding School Healing Coalition based out of Minnesota, 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:39.239 and UM looking into them and supporting their efforts UM 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:42.560 with this issue is also a good place to start. UM. 0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:48.359 Is there anywhere that people can find you online? Yes? 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:55.680 I don't. I don't really use UM social media that much. 0:50:56.600 --> 0:51:03.239 From yeah yeah, yeah, I try not to. I don't know. 0:51:03.280 --> 0:51:06.160 If I want people to find me, do not, don't, 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:11.600 don't do it better, It's it's better that people don't 0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:15.640 find anyone online. It's better we're all just just posting 0:51:15.719 --> 0:51:19.000 into the void. There's nothing not just just a void. 0:51:19.800 --> 0:51:24.040 Well that that is I think gonna wrap up what 0:51:24.120 --> 0:51:27.200 we have today. Chris don want to close us out 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:33.280 with a funny bit A right light your local gas 0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:39.879 station on fire. Wow, Jesus Christ killing it here? Oh 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:52.960 my god, jeez wow. All right, goodbye forbody. The Gangster 0:51:53.040 --> 0:51:56.840 Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around Underworld 0:51:57.280 --> 0:52:00.800 the Criminals an entertainer. Since Pick was crime law enforcement, 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:03.840 we cover all facets of the game. Gainst The Chronicles 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:07.720 podcast doesn't glorify for motilst of activities. We just discussed 0:52:07.719 --> 0:52:10.919 the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at the wall, 0:52:11.200 --> 0:52:13.680 if you played gamester games, you are ultimately rewarded with 0:52:13.760 --> 0:52:17.600 Gainster prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but 0:52:17.719 --> 0:52:20.480 don't take our award for it. Find Against the Chronicles 0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:22.920 podcast and my Heart Radio app or wherever you get 0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:28.160 your podcast. Conquer your New Year's resolution to be more 0:52:28.239 --> 0:52:32.000 productive with the Before Breakfast Podcast. In each bite sized 0:52:32.080 --> 0:52:37.000 daily episode, time management and productivity expert Laura Vanderkam teaches 0:52:37.000 --> 0:52:39.080 you how to make the most of your time both 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:42.520 at work and at home. These are the practical suggestions 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:45.160 you need to get more done with your day. Just 0:52:45.280 --> 0:52:48.000 as lifting weights keeps our body as strong as we age, 0:52:48.239 --> 0:52:51.520 learning new skills is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. 0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:56.680 Listen to Before Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. When P. T. 0:52:56.800 --> 0:52:59.760 Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the grounds in eighteen 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:02.640 six d five, what rose from its ashes would change 0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:06.720 the world? Welcome to Grim and Mild Presents, an ongoing 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:10.600 journey into the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. For 0:53:10.760 --> 0:53:13.720 our inaugural season, we'll be giving you a backstage tour 0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:17.840 of the always complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:21.120 is the American Side Show. So come along as we 0:53:21.239 --> 0:53:24.200 visit the shadowy corners of the stage and learn about 0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:26.200 the people who were at the center of it all 0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:29.279 in a place where spectacle was king. We will soon 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:32.799 discover there's always more to the story than meets the eye, 0:53:33.440 --> 0:53:36.719 So step right up and get in line. Listen to 0:53:36.760 --> 0:53:39.479 Grim and Mild Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, 0:53:39.520 --> 0:53:43.759 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more 0:53:43.800 --> 0:53:53.959 over at Grim and Mild dot com. Slash presents What's 0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:58.040 Terrible My Me? This Is It Could Happen Here, a 0:53:58.080 --> 0:54:02.120 podcast about collapse. And that's a appropriate because everyone's faith 0:54:02.160 --> 0:54:05.160 in me as a colleague has collapsed today as the 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:09.080 result of a series of horrific cluster fox On my part, 0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:12.200 I'm late to the meeting. I accidentally left the meeting 0:54:12.200 --> 0:54:15.640 when they started recording just a just a complete fucking 0:54:15.640 --> 0:54:19.760 ship show. Speaking of ship shows, my co host Garrison Davis, 0:54:19.760 --> 0:54:23.120 how are you Arison, I'm the one that saved this. 0:54:23.280 --> 0:54:25.439 I had to send the guest to the zoom call, 0:54:25.640 --> 0:54:27.680 I know, and I'm not even supposed to be on 0:54:27.719 --> 0:54:29.640 this call. No you're not. You're not even supposed to 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.839 be working today. That's not true. Well, but you're not 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:34.640 on this call, not on this call. But here I 0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:38.600 am saving. This is enough. This is enough, Woody Banter. 0:54:38.800 --> 0:54:43.520 This is a daily podcast. And now let's bring on 0:54:43.560 --> 0:54:50.560 our guest for today, monsignor Alex new House. Alex, how 0:54:50.600 --> 0:54:53.400 are you doing. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:55.400 I feel like I was pulled in off the street, 0:54:55.719 --> 0:54:58.800 just like bundled into a van and then yeah, yeah, 0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:01.920 we uh. You know how people used to get like shanghaied, 0:55:02.080 --> 0:55:06.279 like like captured by it, allegedly allegedly and forced to 0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:09.520 work on on on boats in like San Francisco and whatnot. 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:12.040 We do that with podcasts. I mean that is actually 0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:14.319 most of what I've done to the people who work 0:55:14.360 --> 0:55:17.200 on your podcast. I think I think I've had everyone 0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:19.439 from your show on our show now, and it has 0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:21.760 been very much like I'm just pulling them on a string. 0:55:22.360 --> 0:55:25.040 Speaking of which, Alex, you are one of the hosts 0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:30.360 of the Terrorism Is Bad podcast, a very uh controversially 0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:34.080 named podcast. Uh. And you work at the Middlebury Institute 0:55:34.120 --> 0:55:38.080 of International Studies at Monterey Center of Terrorism, Extremism and 0:55:38.160 --> 0:55:41.040 counter Terrorism Center on not not of that would be 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:44.960 a different center, very important, very important. Yeah, and we're 0:55:44.960 --> 0:55:46.839 not We're not bringing you on to talk about how 0:55:46.840 --> 0:55:52.000 to make explosively formed penetrators. Not this time. That is 0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:54.880 someone else. Yeah, but you and you are also you 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:59.279 were also a actual games journalist. Yes, yeah, I got 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:02.160 my start in is Weird Space. How do you gamer Gate? 0:56:02.320 --> 0:56:07.480 How do you feel about ethics in the game journalism industry? Alex, Uh, 0:56:09.000 --> 0:56:13.839 always been fine, like the ship. Yeah, alright, anyway, that's 0:56:13.840 --> 0:56:16.240 the end of that. Yeah, I do want to actually 0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:19.800 start there, Alex, because you and I both have something 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:22.000 in common, which is that we we got our start 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:25.600 writing in a field that's wildly different from consulting with 0:56:25.680 --> 0:56:29.600 like governments on terrorism. Like for me, it was I 0:56:29.600 --> 0:56:31.640 wanted to write like Dick jokes on the Internet and 0:56:31.680 --> 0:56:34.719 I just like stumbled into a bunch of ices propaganda 0:56:34.840 --> 0:56:37.320 that most people weren't aware of, and and that started 0:56:37.360 --> 0:56:40.880 me like lecturing at universities and ship And for you 0:56:40.920 --> 0:56:42.480 it was gamer gates. I'm interested in kind of you 0:56:42.600 --> 0:56:45.359 telling your story a little bit to start us off. Yeah, 0:56:45.360 --> 0:56:48.480 so I was. I was during undergrad I enterned every 0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:51.520 summer at game Spot video game website you may have 0:56:51.600 --> 0:56:53.839 heard of. It's one of the two big ones along 0:56:53.880 --> 0:56:55.719 with I g n UM. And when I was doing that, 0:56:55.760 --> 0:57:01.000 I was so this was like right in at the 0:57:01.000 --> 0:57:04.239 beginning stages of of gaming gate really popping off. And 0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:07.600 what ended up happening is a lot of the people 0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:09.440 I worked with, a lot of my colleagues and friends 0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:12.360 were just in the blast zone. They were just targeted 0:57:12.400 --> 0:57:17.320 by the absolute onslaught of of harassment UM and I 0:57:17.360 --> 0:57:19.440 just had a curiosity started looking into some of those 0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:22.080 people who were who are targeting my friends and colleagues, 0:57:22.080 --> 0:57:23.600 and it ended up being a lot of the people 0:57:23.600 --> 0:57:25.880 that were still talking about today. Uh, you know, it 0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:29.640 all all rolls back up to the bright bart metropolitan area, 0:57:29.960 --> 0:57:33.960 if you will. And um, I don't know what a 0:57:34.160 --> 0:57:36.840 uh the thing that made me want to I mean, 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:38.280 obviously I've been aware of you work for well, but 0:57:38.280 --> 0:57:39.880 the thing that maybe want to specifically bring you on 0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:42.280 as you started on a new project to create like 0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:46.080 a video game that that will hopefully have an ability 0:57:46.120 --> 0:57:48.680 to help like de radicalize people. And I'm I'm not 0:57:48.840 --> 0:57:51.000 entirely certain like of the details of the project, but 0:57:51.040 --> 0:57:54.240 I think it's a fascinating project because, as as you 0:57:54.320 --> 0:57:56.720 know all too well, a lot of this stuff started 0:57:56.760 --> 0:57:59.800 in gaming, not as a result of anything specifically about 0:57:59.800 --> 0:58:02.400 gay but the kind of like socialization that occurs in 0:58:02.440 --> 0:58:05.600 those spaces and the kind of like different communities. And 0:58:05.600 --> 0:58:07.960 it's been like we have going back to the nineties 0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:11.080 evidence of like different Nazi groups on the early Internet, 0:58:11.120 --> 0:58:13.920 like talking about like these are specific specific groups and 0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:16.720 subcultures that you know will have an easier time radicalizing 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:19.600 and whatnot. But yeah, I'm interested in kind of what 0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:22.720 actually is going on with this project, um, and and 0:58:22.760 --> 0:58:24.439 how you think it's going to look at this stage. 0:58:24.480 --> 0:58:26.560 I understand it's pretty early in development right now, so 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:31.000 I'm not expecting like, you know, an E three walkthrough. Yeah, 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:34.680 our E three size life and I wish we had that. Um. Yeah. 0:58:34.680 --> 0:58:38.640 We won a grant from DHS and FEMA their their 0:58:38.680 --> 0:58:41.160 Tears and Prevention Grant program this year. We just got 0:58:41.240 --> 0:58:44.920 awarded it like literally two weeks ago, so I have 0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:47.600 not even started work on it at all. But the 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:51.880 project will be a collaboration between my center and a 0:58:51.960 --> 0:58:55.760 nonprofit games development company called the I Thrive Foundation. UH. 0:58:55.840 --> 0:58:58.480 And basically what we are going to do is like 0:58:58.560 --> 0:59:02.360 build digital scenario as digital narratives that can be engaged 0:59:02.400 --> 0:59:06.240 with UH within classroom settings. So we're targeting high schools 0:59:06.240 --> 0:59:08.640 for rolling this out UH. And the idea is that 0:59:08.680 --> 0:59:10.640 we're going to give students the ability to take on 0:59:10.800 --> 0:59:13.880 roles that empower them to better understand how extremism and 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:18.680 radicalization work as mechanisms, which will hopefully the idea is 0:59:18.720 --> 0:59:21.400 that it will it will improve resilience and you know, 0:59:21.480 --> 0:59:25.240 civil integrity and all those fun buzzwords within within high 0:59:25.240 --> 0:59:28.400 school communities. So we're not necessarily trying to de radicalize 0:59:28.400 --> 0:59:31.640 already radicalize people, but we're really trying to build community 0:59:31.680 --> 0:59:37.000 awareness community resilience to to radicalization pathways. I mean, this 0:59:37.040 --> 0:59:39.800 is something I think about constantly because I get asked 0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:41.280 this a lot. You know, I'll get I'll get emailed 0:59:41.360 --> 0:59:43.640 questions from people, sometimes as much detail as like, hey, 0:59:43.680 --> 0:59:45.919 I'm like a teacher and here's some things this could 0:59:45.920 --> 0:59:47.960 in my classes said or something he put in an essay, 0:59:47.960 --> 0:59:50.800 and like, I'm growing really concerned about him, and like, I, 0:59:50.760 --> 0:59:53.640 I what do I do? And my usual answer is 0:59:53.840 --> 0:59:56.840 there's a couple of people who I respect that I'll 0:59:56.880 --> 0:59:59.360 try to direct them too, But I I don't. I'm 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:02.440 pretty good at how people get radicalized. It's something I 1:00:02.480 --> 1:00:04.400 spent a lot of time studying. I don't know how 1:00:05.200 --> 1:00:07.800 how you I have trouble figuring out how to break 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:11.080 down these pathways because like, right, the the default for 1:00:11.120 --> 1:00:12.400 a lot of people and for a lot of time 1:00:12.400 --> 1:00:14.720 has been will you d platform? Right? You? Um, you 1:00:14.760 --> 1:00:16.560 get them off of whatever? And there's there's still I 1:00:16.600 --> 1:00:19.080 do certainly think there's there's utility in that, but there's 1:00:19.120 --> 1:00:21.840 also you know, the toothpaste tube effect, the fact that 1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:25.200 when you you squash these popular areas where they're able 1:00:25.240 --> 1:00:28.840 to spread them, they filter off into increasingly isolated communities 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:31.520 that develop new terms, they find out ways to hide it, 1:00:31.520 --> 1:00:34.200 and that actually increases you know, it may it may 1:00:34.240 --> 1:00:36.800 reduce the number of people who get radicalized, but the 1:00:36.800 --> 1:00:39.680 people who remain just get more and more extreme because 1:00:39.680 --> 1:00:43.040 they're even more isolated from you know, everyone else. And 1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:46.760 I don't know, how do you how do you how 1:00:46.800 --> 1:00:50.080 do you break that that radicalization cycle? Like, how do 1:00:50.120 --> 1:00:52.200 you how do you stop that ship before it gets, 1:00:52.680 --> 1:00:55.600 you know, to a tipping point? Yeah, I mean, in general, 1:00:55.600 --> 1:00:58.840 I'm with you, I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of 1:00:58.840 --> 1:01:02.080 the radicalization state. G's uh. And it's it's like an 1:01:02.160 --> 1:01:05.840 incredibly difficult task to to pull someone out who's already 1:01:05.840 --> 1:01:08.160 going down these pathways. And then, like you said, it's 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:10.200 also an incredibly difficult task to make sure that when 1:01:10.240 --> 1:01:13.600 you are disrupting the radicalization networks that they aren't just 1:01:13.720 --> 1:01:16.280 disappearing off to some other corner of the Internet, which 1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:18.240 we know they're doing. Like, one of the reasons why 1:01:18.240 --> 1:01:21.440 we're we're working with a video game video game company 1:01:21.480 --> 1:01:24.320 is over the last few years, we've noticed a big 1:01:24.320 --> 1:01:29.440 migration into video game platforms, especially big social based video 1:01:29.440 --> 1:01:32.880 game platforms like Roadblocks and Minecraft, which are like not 1:01:32.920 --> 1:01:37.439 even remotely prepared to deal with you know, very well 1:01:37.480 --> 1:01:41.400 developed sophisticated radicalization networks. They have moved over there, uh, 1:01:41.600 --> 1:01:46.600 both for organization and radicalization reasons. Um, since mainstream companies 1:01:46.640 --> 1:01:49.840 have started taking more of an interest in deep platforming them. Uh. 1:01:49.880 --> 1:01:53.520 And so we're ending up like pretty wildly unprepared for 1:01:53.560 --> 1:01:56.600 this sudden onslought of extreme as being right in front 1:01:56.600 --> 1:01:59.000 of kids as they're playing games or you know, teenagers 1:01:59.080 --> 1:02:02.720 or even young adults. So our idea essentially is to 1:02:03.360 --> 1:02:06.760 use that language, the same language that extremists are trying 1:02:06.800 --> 1:02:10.600 to adopt the structures of video games three via the 1:02:10.640 --> 1:02:16.640 sort of interactivity there, to better communicate the impacts of extremism, 1:02:16.760 --> 1:02:19.400 what it looks like, how to identify it, and hopefully 1:02:19.400 --> 1:02:22.520 how to avoid getting you know, falling into the traps 1:02:22.520 --> 1:02:26.600 that are laid for for unsuspecting people. One of the 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:29.520 issues and I'm curious your thoughts on this because we 1:02:29.520 --> 1:02:32.360 we we talk a lot about, Like I think people 1:02:32.400 --> 1:02:36.320 have become increasingly aware of how bad Facebook in particular is, 1:02:36.400 --> 1:02:38.040 is a problem with this. It's it's really well real. 1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:40.440 A lot of the Boogaloo movement to and now this 1:02:40.440 --> 1:02:42.960 stuff is coming out about like the data Facebook has 1:02:42.960 --> 1:02:44.960 had on just and this isn't this isn't this is 1:02:45.040 --> 1:02:49.480 adjacent to radicalization, Um, the mental impact that it's been 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:52.280 having on teenagers, right, like the just how bad it 1:02:52.400 --> 1:02:56.440 is for people, And UM, I'm wondering, like how do 1:02:56.520 --> 1:02:58.680 you scale this stuff? I guess is the question, like 1:02:58.720 --> 1:03:01.400 how do you actually how do you make the social 1:03:01.440 --> 1:03:06.160 internet less dangerous? Yeah? I mean that's that's going to 1:03:06.240 --> 1:03:09.640 be extremely tough. And we are even starting very very small, 1:03:09.760 --> 1:03:12.360 like we're building we're building on a narrative platform to 1:03:12.440 --> 1:03:15.560 target three high schools right now. UM. But the hope 1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.320 is that ultimately what we can do is build a 1:03:18.320 --> 1:03:21.720 tool set and and a platform like literally a game 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:24.280 platform that can be used by high school teachers in 1:03:24.320 --> 1:03:28.200 high school classes throughout the country or throughout the world. Um. 1:03:28.280 --> 1:03:31.320 The idea will be to hopefully make a new sort 1:03:31.360 --> 1:03:36.320 of package of different methods and interactive experiences that can 1:03:36.360 --> 1:03:40.720 be reused into the future. But it is one of 1:03:40.800 --> 1:03:43.520 the big open questions that we will hopefully come to 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:45.680 some sort of answer for throughout the project about how 1:03:45.720 --> 1:03:49.080 do we actually scale us up? Um. But you know, 1:03:49.320 --> 1:03:52.600 in general, it is again like one of the biggest 1:03:52.600 --> 1:03:54.800 open questions right now. One of the reasons why I's 1:03:55.000 --> 1:03:57.480 so skeptical of a lot of d RAD and CBE 1:03:58.120 --> 1:04:01.919 techniques is they try to go for scale about effectiveness UM, 1:04:02.000 --> 1:04:04.480 when in reality, one of the best and only the 1:04:04.600 --> 1:04:08.520 radicalization pathways that we know of involves people that you 1:04:08.560 --> 1:04:10.640 know and I know going out and meeting with these 1:04:10.680 --> 1:04:15.760 people one on one and having intensive, frequent communications with them. 1:04:15.920 --> 1:04:18.760 So UM, there's as far as we know, there's not 1:04:18.800 --> 1:04:20.960 a good answer right now. This is a huge place 1:04:20.960 --> 1:04:23.280 of research right now because we just straight up do 1:04:23.400 --> 1:04:27.360 not understand how to scale up UM radicalization, prevention and 1:04:27.400 --> 1:04:31.720 de radicalization. I mean, and you know what you're trying 1:04:31.760 --> 1:04:34.200 to do, and like, reaching kids in high school in 1:04:34.320 --> 1:04:36.960 something that's meant they're meant to be consuming while they're 1:04:37.000 --> 1:04:40.240 in school is even such an additional challenge because I 1:04:40.240 --> 1:04:41.760 think you and I are both young enough to at 1:04:41.840 --> 1:04:45.840 least remember that like almost nothing that you put before 1:04:45.920 --> 1:04:48.880 kids in that context in a school gets through. I can. 1:04:48.960 --> 1:04:51.360 I can. I can think about like anti drug programs 1:04:51.360 --> 1:04:52.520 and stuff when I was a kid, and how in 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:55.320 effective they were. There was I had one one effective 1:04:55.360 --> 1:04:58.280 anti drug like speech by a teacher and it was 1:04:58.320 --> 1:05:01.160 just a teacher who who's it was part of this 1:05:01.160 --> 1:05:02.880 this there was this one night and plane where like 1:05:02.920 --> 1:05:05.200 six kids indeed on heroin. It was there was big 1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:07.280 Rolling Stone article about it was a very famous moment, 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:09.320 and her son was one of the kids who nearly 1:05:09.360 --> 1:05:11.920 died and she was and she like just explained like 1:05:11.960 --> 1:05:14.440 physically what happened to him and begged us not to 1:05:14.480 --> 1:05:16.920 do heroin. And that actually did stick with me. I've 1:05:16.920 --> 1:05:20.520 never never shot up anything, um, but you know, like 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:23.080 the a lot of it doesn't work. And I think 1:05:23.080 --> 1:05:25.960 part of why it's this thing I talked about when 1:05:25.960 --> 1:05:29.240 I tried to explain like why isis propaganda was so effective, 1:05:29.280 --> 1:05:32.600 it's the it feels more authentic than the than the 1:05:32.640 --> 1:05:36.080 counter narrative, right, the counter narrative, because it's it's usually 1:05:36.160 --> 1:05:38.400 focus grouped. It's coming as the result of like some 1:05:38.480 --> 1:05:40.720 sort of government initiative, a bunch of people worked in together. 1:05:40.720 --> 1:05:45.240 It feels focus grouped as opposed to there's something inherently 1:05:45.240 --> 1:05:48.120 more compelling about something that just like it feels like 1:05:48.280 --> 1:05:51.040 somebody who really gave a ship, cares a lot put 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:53.400 this thing together, even if it's terrible, and I that 1:05:53.440 --> 1:05:55.400 strikes me as a really, because if you're going to 1:05:55.440 --> 1:05:57.560 be scaling something and trying to reach a lot of people, 1:05:57.560 --> 1:05:59.600 it's going to have to be something that is put 1:05:59.640 --> 1:06:02.800 together at scale by an organization. And how do you 1:06:03.680 --> 1:06:05.480 I mean, I know this must be on your mind 1:06:05.480 --> 1:06:07.160 as you're trying to figure out how to craft this thing. 1:06:07.160 --> 1:06:09.200 I'm just interested in your thoughts on that. Really, Yeah, 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:12.120 I mean that exact challenge challenges what led us to 1:06:12.120 --> 1:06:14.800 proposing the project project that we are so the idea 1:06:14.840 --> 1:06:18.240 behind it, or the the impetus behind what we did 1:06:18.480 --> 1:06:22.720 what we proposed is, um, the exact problem of students 1:06:22.720 --> 1:06:25.840 just don't listen to people in whether that's anti drug 1:06:25.920 --> 1:06:31.240 programs or anything like that. Often, my uh my uh 1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:33.800 feeling about it is they are often resistant to it 1:06:33.840 --> 1:06:36.360 because it's very negative. It's very don't do this, don't 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:40.400 do this. I'm setting up boundaries for for kids and 1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:46.320 analystens to act within. It's all very declaratory, very you know, commanding. Um, 1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:50.560 there's no there's no sense of treating kids like people 1:06:50.640 --> 1:06:54.560 who have control, who have interests, who have motivations. It's 1:06:54.600 --> 1:06:58.120 all attempting to restrict them. And so the idea is 1:06:58.160 --> 1:06:59.960 that we're going to attempt to build a game play 1:07:00.080 --> 1:07:03.400 form than actually empower students to operate within roles that 1:07:03.440 --> 1:07:06.840 have control, that that have something to say, to give them, 1:07:06.920 --> 1:07:10.560 voices to give them um and that sort of feeling 1:07:10.600 --> 1:07:14.120 of being an established um person within a within a 1:07:14.120 --> 1:07:16.919 certain scenario. Um. The way that I've been thinking about 1:07:16.960 --> 1:07:19.880 it is that we're basically merging video games with like 1:07:19.960 --> 1:07:22.560 the structure of a model UN conference or something like that. 1:07:23.080 --> 1:07:24.800 Hopefully we'll be a little less nerdy than the model 1:07:24.840 --> 1:07:28.120 UN conferences, but that's the idea of giving people power 1:07:28.200 --> 1:07:31.400 to make decisions, uh, and and treat them like actual, 1:07:31.680 --> 1:07:38.360 you know, operating humans. Yeah, I uh, I'm wondering do 1:07:38.400 --> 1:07:40.200 you have any kind of models that you're looking at 1:07:40.240 --> 1:07:42.720 when you think of like something that you see is 1:07:43.000 --> 1:07:45.120 is kind of worth I don't emulating maybe the wrong word, 1:07:45.200 --> 1:07:47.480 but like, oh, these people I think got it right 1:07:47.840 --> 1:07:50.600 and and this was effective, Like or is this really 1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:53.040 a situation where you feel like we're kind of in 1:07:53.080 --> 1:07:55.200 the fucking wilderness here. There's not a lot of great 1:07:55.240 --> 1:07:59.000 models for what's effective. We are very much in the wilderness. 1:07:59.560 --> 1:08:01.640 We're going to at this kind I was expecting you 1:08:01.720 --> 1:08:05.240 to say, like so much of c V and d 1:08:05.400 --> 1:08:08.720 RAD work over the last ten years has been directly 1:08:08.800 --> 1:08:12.160 towards trying to essentially recreate the like the DARE model 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:15.320 or the anti drug model, just in a different field. UM. 1:08:16.040 --> 1:08:19.679 And so we're going to be pulling from scenario builders 1:08:19.880 --> 1:08:23.080 and like mala un and debate and like all of 1:08:23.120 --> 1:08:25.400 these different models that seem to at least work to 1:08:25.439 --> 1:08:29.160 get kids engage with like operating that sort of situation. 1:08:29.840 --> 1:08:33.360 But it is going to be pretty I mean, at 1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:35.160 least from what I understand, is gonna be pretty new. 1:08:35.280 --> 1:08:37.720 We're going to be out there really flying blind for 1:08:37.760 --> 1:08:40.720 a lot of it, UM, But we will you know, 1:08:40.880 --> 1:08:42.920 we have a pilot phase built in to try to 1:08:43.000 --> 1:08:45.559 bate attest this with with um some of the students 1:08:45.640 --> 1:08:50.000 were incorporating students and instructors in the actual creation development stage. 1:08:50.479 --> 1:08:53.960 So that'll be another hopefully good part of this will 1:08:54.479 --> 1:08:58.559 we'll give some students experience with the game development process, 1:08:59.320 --> 1:09:03.559 which I think will all. Yeah, that strikes me as 1:09:03.560 --> 1:09:05.760 a particularly good idea of like giving and also just 1:09:05.840 --> 1:09:08.560 giving them some agency. So it's not like this is 1:09:08.600 --> 1:09:11.760 a thing that you are forced to consume, Like this 1:09:11.920 --> 1:09:13.840 is the thing that you can like learn something from 1:09:13.920 --> 1:09:17.559 I think that's that's very important. I'm interested in how 1:09:17.720 --> 1:09:20.720 you see how you see this because like, again, we 1:09:20.840 --> 1:09:23.120 kind of both got in around the same time. Gamer 1:09:23.160 --> 1:09:25.880 Gate is when I started paying attention to radicalization to 1:09:26.360 --> 1:09:28.479 how do you think it's changed since then? How do 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:30.519 you think like the nature of of how, particularly like 1:09:30.800 --> 1:09:33.599 younger people are being radicalized has changed. And I guess 1:09:33.640 --> 1:09:36.360 I'm also interested because I get the feeling that back 1:09:36.439 --> 1:09:39.519 then it was mostly younger people getting radicalized and that's 1:09:39.560 --> 1:09:42.040 no longer the case. I'm just as we're talking, I 1:09:42.160 --> 1:09:44.320 just came across the video on Twitter of a group 1:09:44.360 --> 1:09:47.320 of anti vax protesters chasing parents and children away from 1:09:47.360 --> 1:09:50.200 an elementary school and screaming at them that they're raping 1:09:50.200 --> 1:09:53.040 their kids with a vaccine. So clearly the problem is expanded. 1:09:53.240 --> 1:09:56.120 But yeah, yeah, and honestly, one of the things that 1:09:56.200 --> 1:09:57.960 keeps me up at night is that when we start, 1:09:58.080 --> 1:10:00.599 if you know, knocking movies are a roll this out 1:10:00.640 --> 1:10:03.439 to more schools, We're going to run into some probably 1:10:03.560 --> 1:10:08.200 very resistant parents who have radicalized. Yum. Yeah, I mean 1:10:08.560 --> 1:10:10.000 the big one is, like what you said, like the 1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:15.600 radicalization demographics have vastly expanded to incorporate so many more 1:10:15.680 --> 1:10:18.200 different types of people, so many more ages and even 1:10:18.280 --> 1:10:22.600 ethnicities and genders. Um. But what we do know is 1:10:22.800 --> 1:10:26.080 that the hardcore of the of the violent extremists are 1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:31.200 still targeting adolescents. UM. We know, accelerationists, for instance, hang 1:10:31.280 --> 1:10:35.280 out and try to essentially blackpill a bunch of teens, 1:10:35.720 --> 1:10:39.240 especially autistic teens, especially teens with mental health issues, UH, 1:10:39.320 --> 1:10:43.559 and bring them into a more violent, more accelerationist posture. UM. 1:10:43.880 --> 1:10:46.320 So I mean, I think that has sort of stayed 1:10:47.439 --> 1:10:51.120 constant throughout all of this. One of the big uh 1:10:51.560 --> 1:10:54.960 changes has been platforms. You know, ten years ago, it 1:10:55.040 --> 1:10:57.320 was much easier for a neo Nazi to operate openly 1:10:57.400 --> 1:11:03.200 on YouTube or Facebook, but has thankfully changed. Um. But 1:11:03.320 --> 1:11:06.479 they have spread out into like I mentioned earlier, they've 1:11:06.479 --> 1:11:08.800 spread out into video games. They spread out into other 1:11:08.880 --> 1:11:12.960 sorts of platforms where the social aspect isn't necessarily the 1:11:13.160 --> 1:11:16.400 first part of the platform, but rather a secondary aspect 1:11:16.479 --> 1:11:19.720 to it, and they try to engage um adolescence on 1:11:19.760 --> 1:11:22.200 their own turf on you know, in a Roadblocks game 1:11:22.320 --> 1:11:25.360 or in a in a video game forum. Out there. 1:11:26.360 --> 1:11:28.519 It's not even enough to say it feels like the 1:11:28.880 --> 1:11:33.040 task of reducing radicalization or or not not even mentioned, 1:11:33.080 --> 1:11:35.760 pulling it back, just stopping the process. It feels not 1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:37.760 just like whack a mole, but like whack a mole 1:11:37.840 --> 1:11:41.680 when you're surrounded by moles. Um. And I guess that 1:11:41.800 --> 1:11:43.200 is the thing that keeps me up at night the 1:11:43.320 --> 1:11:47.280 most too, is that like the problem has gotten because 1:11:47.320 --> 1:11:49.599 of how social media scales, I think, in large part, 1:11:49.640 --> 1:11:53.080 has gotten so much worse than it ever was. And 1:11:53.240 --> 1:11:57.000 the I see these crowds of adults, you know, assembling 1:11:57.240 --> 1:12:01.000 in you know, places like Los Angeles, showing up outside 1:12:01.040 --> 1:12:04.880 of schools to her ask people, and like, I don't 1:12:04.920 --> 1:12:09.120 know what, I don't know what to do about that. 1:12:09.680 --> 1:12:15.800 Like part of me thinks, um, part of me thinks 1:12:16.080 --> 1:12:19.400 that the only effective long term answer is to mobilize 1:12:19.800 --> 1:12:25.400 a larger number of people two show up to you know, 1:12:25.520 --> 1:12:28.120 not necessarily confront those people, but make them make them 1:12:28.200 --> 1:12:30.719 feel outnumbered, and maybe they'll stop, and that will start 1:12:30.760 --> 1:12:33.800 a process where they they alter their thinking. Like I'm 1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:35.840 thinking kind of back to some aspects of the civil 1:12:35.960 --> 1:12:37.800 rights movement here right where you would have these people 1:12:37.840 --> 1:12:40.400 show up at schools just try to stop integration and whatnot, 1:12:40.439 --> 1:12:43.679 and they would be opposed, often by by larger groups 1:12:43.720 --> 1:12:45.320 that they would see the size of the marches in 1:12:45.400 --> 1:12:47.320 the street, and like, I don't know, I don't even 1:12:47.360 --> 1:12:49.400 know if it works that way anymore. Like knowing that 1:12:49.880 --> 1:12:52.720 you know, tend to one people think your stance on 1:12:52.840 --> 1:12:55.040 vaccines is stupid and they're willing to show up to 1:12:55.120 --> 1:12:57.120 like yell at you if that would do anything. But 1:12:57.200 --> 1:12:59.519 I don't know what. I don't know what's going to do. 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:02.920 Like I'm I guess I'm asking you, like, can you 1:13:03.000 --> 1:13:04.680 have you figured this out? Because I don't know what 1:13:04.760 --> 1:13:07.760 the fun to do. Um, But it's it's it's not 1:13:08.160 --> 1:13:11.160 you can't we can't close there. Obviously you're someone who's 1:13:11.160 --> 1:13:13.880 trying to confront it directly, but we certainly can't keep 1:13:13.920 --> 1:13:19.320 ourselves like just pretend it's not going to get worse, right, No, totally, 1:13:19.400 --> 1:13:22.759 And um, you know, I often feel like it's almost 1:13:22.800 --> 1:13:25.640 too far gone. And you know, frequently I worry that 1:13:25.720 --> 1:13:28.280 we've already passed some sort of you know, point of 1:13:28.360 --> 1:13:34.000 no return on radicalization exploitation of social media. But one 1:13:34.080 --> 1:13:36.920 of the other things I've also recognized is that when 1:13:37.000 --> 1:13:39.840 you're in a space that is dedicated to one type 1:13:39.840 --> 1:13:46.040 of confronting one one method of confronting extremism. Very often 1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:50.240 they will forget about, or the prioritize, or or even 1:13:50.280 --> 1:13:54.960 ignore the other types, the other methods. And one of 1:13:55.040 --> 1:13:57.880 the tasks before us, I think, before we throw up 1:13:57.880 --> 1:14:00.320 our hands and give up, is trying to tie together 1:14:00.360 --> 1:14:03.559 all of the different facets of of resisting extremism, from 1:14:04.160 --> 1:14:08.720 the hardcore confrontational dosing and showing up in the streets counterprotesting, 1:14:08.760 --> 1:14:11.400 which I think is an essential part of it, to 1:14:12.120 --> 1:14:14.040 UM working as hard as we can to try to 1:14:14.120 --> 1:14:17.680 get tech companies to to realize what's going on UH, 1:14:17.760 --> 1:14:19.960 and then also on the educational side, like what we're 1:14:20.000 --> 1:14:22.760 doing with this with this project UM. Some of the 1:14:22.800 --> 1:14:24.560 things that make me at least a little bit optimistic 1:14:24.720 --> 1:14:29.640 is that there is obviously inertia, both intentional and unintentional 1:14:29.720 --> 1:14:33.439 at tech companies, but frankly, they are still extremely far 1:14:33.560 --> 1:14:36.840 behind in understanding how to even do D platforming on 1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:40.160 their platforms, how to even identify who t D platform 1:14:40.600 --> 1:14:44.200 like the majority of tech companies are still making content 1:14:44.280 --> 1:14:48.599 moderation decisions on a piece by piece basis, specifically looking 1:14:48.640 --> 1:14:51.600 at content. Very few of them are doing actor analysis, 1:14:51.800 --> 1:14:54.960 very few of them are doing secial network analysis. Very 1:14:55.000 --> 1:14:57.280 few of them are looking at even the links between 1:14:57.840 --> 1:15:02.000 like off platform violence and on platform content like the 1:15:02.360 --> 1:15:04.720 They are still very much in the stone ages when 1:15:04.760 --> 1:15:08.360 it comes to contentment moderation. And that's so so key 1:15:08.520 --> 1:15:11.120 when I think about like what actually would reduce the 1:15:11.240 --> 1:15:14.759 harm that these platforms are doing at scale. It's focusing 1:15:14.840 --> 1:15:17.880 on the actors, um and and not just like the 1:15:17.960 --> 1:15:20.519 individual actors, which is part of the patterns that let 1:15:20.600 --> 1:15:22.559 you tell whether or not someone is like that same 1:15:22.600 --> 1:15:24.559 actor who is kind of like putting on a different hat, 1:15:24.640 --> 1:15:28.479 so to speak. Um, are you aware of like is 1:15:28.520 --> 1:15:33.000 there any I because I have not seen that happen yet. 1:15:33.320 --> 1:15:36.560 I haven't seen Facebook take that seriously. Um, and I 1:15:36.680 --> 1:15:40.040 have I have spent some time there. I haven't seen 1:15:40.160 --> 1:15:44.200 certainly haven't seen Twitter take that seriously. Um, I haven't 1:15:44.240 --> 1:15:48.040 really seen. I don't believe TikTok is like they're they're 1:15:48.200 --> 1:15:52.120 they're they're just um like you said, they're going after 1:15:52.280 --> 1:15:54.200 they're taking it on a piece bay piece basis, which 1:15:54.280 --> 1:15:56.080 is never there's too many pieces. That's never going to 1:15:56.160 --> 1:15:59.679 handle the problem. Yeah, I mean, take talk is crawling 1:15:59.760 --> 1:16:02.519 right now on the air in their infancy. Um, they don't. 1:16:02.560 --> 1:16:05.560 They don't have a data sharing UH, any sort of 1:16:05.640 --> 1:16:08.280 data sharing systems set up for for researchers or anything 1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:11.920 like that. Yet I I've seen optimistic signals. So I 1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:14.559 think Facebook's approach to q and on in boogleoo movement 1:16:14.680 --> 1:16:17.720 over the past year has been probably the best, the 1:16:18.080 --> 1:16:20.800 most positive development we've seen on the content moderation front, 1:16:20.840 --> 1:16:24.000 because they took an actual network based approach to it. 1:16:24.600 --> 1:16:27.360 It was handstrung by a variety of different policy decisions, 1:16:27.520 --> 1:16:30.200 but it was still from like a from like a 1:16:30.320 --> 1:16:34.080 mechanics standpoint, the most sophisticated one any of the companies 1:16:34.120 --> 1:16:37.400 has actually talked about openly. UH. And YouTube has followed 1:16:37.680 --> 1:16:41.160 in their path. They've started taking more network approaches. Um 1:16:41.400 --> 1:16:45.439 they They've taken moderation action against q and on on 1:16:45.520 --> 1:16:49.439 a similar basis. But the thing that I want tech 1:16:49.479 --> 1:16:52.760 companies to start looking at is applying a lot of 1:16:52.840 --> 1:16:56.280 the techniques they're using for disinformation and in info ops 1:16:56.760 --> 1:17:00.680 work to extremism and radicalization. It's very similar, but right 1:17:00.720 --> 1:17:03.280 now it seems to be just easier politically or just 1:17:03.800 --> 1:17:08.160 there further along with doing the large scale network analysis 1:17:08.200 --> 1:17:11.400 approaches on this info UM, Like Twitter is doing a 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:14.600 lot of that, but it's all on information operations and 1:17:15.120 --> 1:17:19.560 to info yeah, as opposed to yeah people. Yeah. And 1:17:19.640 --> 1:17:23.920 I I worry too because I'm paying attention to kind 1:17:23.960 --> 1:17:26.120 of you know, you have this whistle blower from Facebook, 1:17:26.160 --> 1:17:28.519 and how that's being politicized, right, how the right is 1:17:28.600 --> 1:17:30.960 kind of coming at this from a they're trying to say, 1:17:31.400 --> 1:17:33.840 like as Ben Shapira said, they're trying to to UM 1:17:34.560 --> 1:17:38.400 to censor alternative media voices and the like. And I 1:17:38.720 --> 1:17:42.920 I worry tremendously about the politicization because number one, it 1:17:43.000 --> 1:17:46.680 means that at best we've got like three years to 1:17:46.800 --> 1:17:49.800 get something together before you know, who knows whose wides 1:17:49.840 --> 1:17:52.200 up in the White House next. But also if it's 1:17:52.240 --> 1:17:55.920 just this thing of like veering between who gets who 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:59.840 gets paid attention to UM based on like what is 1:18:00.000 --> 1:18:04.040 politically viable for Facebook, We're never going to solve the problem. 1:18:04.080 --> 1:18:06.800 And I I think I agree with you for the 1:18:06.880 --> 1:18:10.120 most part on the Facebook's response to the boogle Boo movement. 1:18:10.680 --> 1:18:12.479 I mean, I guess I think the problem was that 1:18:12.640 --> 1:18:15.920 by the time they developed a functional set of responses 1:18:16.000 --> 1:18:19.560 to it UM, it had metastasized, it had grown, it 1:18:19.640 --> 1:18:22.000 had grown strong enough to exist on its own, and 1:18:22.080 --> 1:18:25.320 a lot of people have gotten exposed. What do you 1:18:25.400 --> 1:18:28.040 think is the actual is reasonable to expect in terms 1:18:28.080 --> 1:18:31.320 of response time from these people, Because with Boogleoo stuff, 1:18:31.320 --> 1:18:35.040 it was about I want to say, about three months maybe, well, no, 1:18:35.120 --> 1:18:36.920 it was more like five. It was about five months 1:18:36.960 --> 1:18:40.040 that it had from like December of twenty nineteen was 1:18:40.080 --> 1:18:42.840 when I started really noticing it. And then like you know, 1:18:43.000 --> 1:18:45.240 May at the when when stuff really kicked off with 1:18:45.280 --> 1:18:48.439 the George Floyd protests, when you started to see action 1:18:48.520 --> 1:18:51.920 taking the tail into May. Yeah, so I guess that 1:18:52.439 --> 1:18:55.160 I'm wondering, like what is the half life of this ship? 1:18:55.280 --> 1:18:57.479 Like how quickly do you need to crack down on 1:18:57.560 --> 1:19:03.479 this stuff before it it gets to be impossible to contain? Uh? Yeah, 1:19:03.560 --> 1:19:07.160 I mean that's the biggest limiting factor on the effectiveness 1:19:07.240 --> 1:19:11.760 of UH contemnation in general, but also in particular these 1:19:11.800 --> 1:19:15.320 new approaches that the tech companies seem to be experimenting with. UM, 1:19:15.600 --> 1:19:17.800 my understanding is that part of the So I'm not 1:19:17.880 --> 1:19:19.840 I'm not defending Facebook by any stretch. I'm not here 1:19:19.880 --> 1:19:23.840 to be the Facebook rallying croup. But my understanding is 1:19:23.920 --> 1:19:28.400 that they literally did develop an entirely separate approach to 1:19:28.600 --> 1:19:31.760 taking down the biblue movements, So that explains at least 1:19:31.800 --> 1:19:35.880 a little bit of the delay. But hopefully, you know, 1:19:36.120 --> 1:19:38.120 my optimistic side hopes that they will be able to 1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:40.920 apply it more quickly in the future. Um. The problem 1:19:41.040 --> 1:19:43.400 is a lot of the network approaches that have been 1:19:43.439 --> 1:19:47.920 developed are have like these very high thresholds for attribution. 1:19:48.520 --> 1:19:51.439 So it has to be like a dedicated network that 1:19:51.479 --> 1:19:54.439 has crossed the line into criminal activity and is actively 1:19:54.720 --> 1:19:58.679 calling for you know, political violence on like a network level, 1:19:59.200 --> 1:20:01.680 and that like we all know that that isn't that 1:20:01.880 --> 1:20:07.800 is like the end goal or the end point in right, 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:10.840 Like that is the terminal point of the development of 1:20:10.880 --> 1:20:15.800 these extremist networks. So you know, we're one of the 1:20:16.160 --> 1:20:17.559 one of the things that we're working on is trying 1:20:17.600 --> 1:20:19.439 to figure out a way to convince tech companies that 1:20:19.560 --> 1:20:22.000 you can and should take action earlier before it reaches 1:20:22.040 --> 1:20:24.400 that point. And it's going to be a mosaic of things. 1:20:24.439 --> 1:20:27.000 It's going to be combining violent extremism with hate speech, 1:20:27.080 --> 1:20:31.320 with even like c SAM child exploitation stuff, with um all, 1:20:31.640 --> 1:20:35.400 you know, criminal criminal conspiracy network policies. All of those 1:20:35.439 --> 1:20:38.080 things need to be sort of thought of as pieces 1:20:38.120 --> 1:20:41.160 in a single, big, overarching umbrella that we can use 1:20:41.240 --> 1:20:44.599 to take down networks earlier on. But you know, it's 1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:46.800 a it's a that's one of the biggest tasks is 1:20:46.880 --> 1:20:52.320 just convincing them to think about it much much earlier. Yeah. Um, 1:20:53.160 --> 1:20:55.280 all right, well, let's I think most of what I 1:20:55.320 --> 1:20:57.080 wanted to get into today. Is there anything else you 1:20:57.160 --> 1:21:00.920 really wanted to like kind of talk about while you're here? Um, 1:21:01.280 --> 1:21:03.639 those are the those are the big ones for sure. 1:21:04.280 --> 1:21:07.280 We will hopefully have more to talk about very soon. 1:21:07.479 --> 1:21:10.080 And how we're approaching this project. Um, it's going to 1:21:10.160 --> 1:21:13.519 be a pretty big project. It will take two years 1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:16.360 to implement, but um, we're pretty excited to see what 1:21:16.439 --> 1:21:20.599 comes out of it. Yeah. Um, Well, people can find 1:21:20.680 --> 1:21:24.559 you on Twitter at it's just at alex new house, right, 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:27.640 alex B new house, alex B new house. Yeah, at 1:21:27.680 --> 1:21:33.040 alex B new house. Um, they can check out where 1:21:33.120 --> 1:21:35.720 you work at at C T E, C M I 1:21:36.120 --> 1:21:40.599 I s UM And yeah, I'm I'm excited to see. Well, 1:21:40.800 --> 1:21:43.960 maybe we'll have you back on when you UMU, when 1:21:44.000 --> 1:21:46.639 you you you actually put out the game. But I'm 1:21:46.640 --> 1:21:48.760 really interested in looking at that. Oh yeah, it was 1:21:48.760 --> 1:21:51.720 the less than you brewed. Oh I brewed a red 1:21:51.760 --> 1:21:53.479 I p a and I'm currently brewing three gallons of 1:21:53.520 --> 1:21:57.080 apple cider. Oh nice. We just um reduced ten gallons 1:21:57.120 --> 1:22:00.519 of apples and pears that I just kegged after almost 1:22:00.560 --> 1:22:02.639 four weeks of fermentation that I know. I've been I've 1:22:02.640 --> 1:22:04.680 been looking at I've been looking at apple mills, like 1:22:05.080 --> 1:22:07.840 apple presses. Yeah I should I should just buy one. 1:22:08.200 --> 1:22:10.280 And we found one to rent. Um So it's just 1:22:10.400 --> 1:22:12.519 like I don't know, thirty bucks for the day. Uh, 1:22:12.640 --> 1:22:14.879 and we just gathered up all the apples on property. 1:22:14.960 --> 1:22:18.080 But it's it was rab definitely very soul. Yeah. We 1:22:18.160 --> 1:22:20.240 were juicing all of the apples the day that um 1:22:20.680 --> 1:22:25.519 tiny got shot at that protest in Olympia. So it's 1:22:25.560 --> 1:22:27.800 just like looking at the Twitter saying there's been a 1:22:27.800 --> 1:22:29.840 shooting into protests and be like, yeah, I'm glad I'm 1:22:29.840 --> 1:22:32.759 not working today. Yeah, I'm glad I'm not working today 1:22:33.760 --> 1:22:37.920 afternoon pressing apple. This is this is a more enjoyable 1:22:38.040 --> 1:22:41.679 use of my time right now. All right, Well, Alex, 1:22:41.720 --> 1:22:43.960 thank you so much for being on. Thank you for 1:22:44.040 --> 1:22:47.400 what you're doing, and thank you all for listening. Go 1:22:47.640 --> 1:22:56.960 with you know whoever, whatever deity up to you. The 1:22:57.280 --> 1:23:01.280 art world, it is essentially a money during business. The 1:23:01.400 --> 1:23:03.960 best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You know 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:07.639 they don't even know or suspect that their faces. I'm 1:23:07.680 --> 1:23:12.080 Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed 1:23:12.200 --> 1:23:15.479 and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting 1:23:15.560 --> 1:23:22.120 was fake. Um Listen to Art Fraud starting February one 1:23:22.800 --> 1:23:26.719 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 1:23:27.000 --> 1:23:38.760 you get your podcasts. I call the Union Hall as 1:23:38.880 --> 1:23:41.640 his male alife and death. I thank these people to 1:23:41.720 --> 1:23:46.559 planning to kill Dr King. On April four, Dr Martin 1:23:46.680 --> 1:23:49.240 Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty 1:23:49.280 --> 1:23:52.799 criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He played guilty 1:23:52.840 --> 1:23:54.760 to the crime and spent the rest of his life 1:23:54.800 --> 1:24:00.200 in prison. Case closed, right, James el Ray is a 1:24:00.360 --> 1:24:04.720 pawn for the official story. The authorities would pray at 1:24:04.720 --> 1:24:07.639 all we found a gun the James ol Ray bought 1:24:07.680 --> 1:24:11.680 in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it wasn't the 1:24:11.720 --> 1:24:14.680 gun that killed Dr King. One of the problems that 1:24:14.960 --> 1:24:18.200 came out when I got the ray case was that 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:21.720 some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, 1:24:21.800 --> 1:24:25.880 did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. 1:24:26.280 --> 1:24:29.200 The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I 1:24:29.360 --> 1:24:33.120 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:24:36.439 --> 1:24:40.080 I'm Jake Halbern, host of Deep Cover. Our new season 1:24:40.280 --> 1:24:43.080 is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. 1:24:43.720 --> 1:24:48.160 We controlled the courts, We controlled absolutely everything. He bribed 1:24:48.240 --> 1:24:51.599 judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until 1:24:51.720 --> 1:24:54.640 one day when he started talking with the FBI and 1:24:54.760 --> 1:24:58.120 promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent 1:24:58.200 --> 1:25:00.439 the past year trying to figure out why he flipped 1:25:00.640 --> 1:25:03.679 and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob 1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:05.640 was too good to be true. There's got to be 1:25:05.720 --> 1:25:08.640 something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust the guy. He 1:25:08.760 --> 1:25:11.640 looks like a little scum, big liar, stool pidgeon. He 1:25:11.680 --> 1:25:14.120 looked like what he was or at. I can say 1:25:14.160 --> 1:25:16.560 with all certainty I think he's a hero because he 1:25:16.640 --> 1:25:18.200 didn't have to do what he did, and he did 1:25:18.280 --> 1:25:20.640 it anyway. The moment I put the wire around the 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:24.240 first time, my life was over. If it ever got out, 1:25:24.560 --> 1:25:27.559 they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen to deep 1:25:27.600 --> 1:25:30.280 Cover on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:41.280 wherever you get your podcasts. It could happen here. Mike 1:25:42.040 --> 1:25:46.479 is possibly anyway, I'm Robert Evans. Uh, you know who 1:25:46.560 --> 1:25:48.479 I am because you're listening to this show unless you 1:25:48.520 --> 1:25:50.960 stumbled upon this having never heard of the internet before, 1:25:50.960 --> 1:25:53.840 in which case, this is a show about how things 1:25:53.880 --> 1:25:56.280 are kind of falling apart, and we also try to 1:25:56.320 --> 1:25:59.320 talk every now and then about how to maybe put 1:25:59.400 --> 1:26:02.360 them back together a little bit. My co host is 1:26:02.680 --> 1:26:06.479 Garrison Davis. Garrison, say hello to the people. Hello, people. 1:26:07.000 --> 1:26:11.000 I'd also like you to say hello to Sean. Hi. Sean. Yeah, 1:26:11.040 --> 1:26:14.160 there's a Sean somewhere out there. There's probably a few Seans. Yeah, 1:26:14.600 --> 1:26:17.560 it was at least one or two. Garrison, What do we? 1:26:17.640 --> 1:26:20.800 What do we? What do we? What? What? What are we? Well, 1:26:20.960 --> 1:26:23.560 we're finally doing something I've been wanting to do for 1:26:23.600 --> 1:26:26.479 a while, is branching off into kind of covering different 1:26:26.800 --> 1:26:29.640 parts of like media and culture. Um that kind of 1:26:29.720 --> 1:26:33.519 relate to all of these topics. Um. I know both 1:26:34.280 --> 1:26:36.800 both me, but both me a little bit and and 1:26:36.960 --> 1:26:40.439 Robert more so have worked for or have have written 1:26:40.520 --> 1:26:45.120 for UM like an online investigative journalism website called Belling 1:26:45.200 --> 1:26:49.120 Cat that deals in open source UM like research. And 1:26:49.400 --> 1:26:52.160 one of the things that we're big fans of that 1:26:52.640 --> 1:26:54.280 Belling Cat I've talked with a few of the other 1:26:54.560 --> 1:26:57.840 people is a game called Her Story, which is a 1:26:58.400 --> 1:27:01.760 video game that has maybe one of the better better 1:27:01.840 --> 1:27:06.599 depictions of kind of open source UM investigations. Uh it's 1:27:06.680 --> 1:27:08.320 it's a it's a very it's a very good game. 1:27:08.400 --> 1:27:10.720 I highly recommended. I played it a few years ago. 1:27:11.760 --> 1:27:16.760 It was lovely and I recently uh well, originally, when 1:27:16.800 --> 1:27:19.080 I bought Her Story, I bought both that game and 1:27:19.280 --> 1:27:22.640 like a spiritual sequel called Telling Lies, which I did 1:27:22.760 --> 1:27:24.760 did not play for a while because I was too 1:27:24.840 --> 1:27:29.759 busy UM. And then I went to the Earth First 1:27:29.960 --> 1:27:32.040 Gathering this summer and I and I came back and 1:27:32.080 --> 1:27:34.400 I had some free time, so I played Telling Lies. 1:27:34.680 --> 1:27:36.840 And because of the continent of that game, I found 1:27:36.880 --> 1:27:40.320 it really interesting. Because I'm not gonna spoil tons of it, 1:27:40.520 --> 1:27:42.160 I think you should play it for yourself, and part 1:27:42.200 --> 1:27:44.800 of it is solving the mystery on your own. But 1:27:44.920 --> 1:27:48.080 but part of it does take place to like green 1:27:48.160 --> 1:27:52.599 environmentalism activism setting and it has one of the more 1:27:53.960 --> 1:28:00.040 honest depictions of environments like that. So I have of 1:28:00.720 --> 1:28:03.240 we we are graced with bringing on the creator of 1:28:03.280 --> 1:28:08.320 both Her Story and telling lies. Uh. Sam Barlow, Hello, Hey, 1:28:08.960 --> 1:28:11.840 exciting to be here thanks to that lovely interest. Yeah, 1:28:11.960 --> 1:28:14.640 I am, I am. I'm very excited to talk with you. 1:28:15.360 --> 1:28:18.240 These games are some of my favorite things. Um. First off, 1:28:18.240 --> 1:28:20.320 I guess I would just like to kind of talk 1:28:20.400 --> 1:28:24.000 about your inspiration for this type of detective game, because 1:28:24.200 --> 1:28:27.120 it is it is unique to every other kind of 1:28:27.960 --> 1:28:31.720 investigative game out there. UM. And it's you know, very 1:28:31.800 --> 1:28:36.280 much grounded in open source research. Um. And like using 1:28:36.360 --> 1:28:39.680 computers in the real world. What what kind of got 1:28:39.760 --> 1:28:43.479 you onto that kind of storytelling concept? I mean, I 1:28:43.520 --> 1:28:45.760 think there was a whole bunch of things that all 1:28:46.280 --> 1:28:49.439 kind of sparked off at once, Like when I made 1:28:49.520 --> 1:28:52.240 Her Story. This was my first independent video game. So 1:28:52.280 --> 1:28:56.080 I've been making video games for ten plus years, um, 1:28:56.720 --> 1:29:00.360 working on other people's franchises, more traditional things. When I 1:29:00.439 --> 1:29:03.880 started out working on like Nicolas Cage movie, Tiants and 1:29:04.360 --> 1:29:06.680 extreme sports games and all these kind of things. Um. 1:29:07.080 --> 1:29:09.920 But at some point I got to work on the 1:29:09.920 --> 1:29:14.160 Sunlight Health franchise, which is this this very cool psychological 1:29:14.240 --> 1:29:16.880 horror franchise, and it's one of the certainly at that 1:29:17.040 --> 1:29:19.519 point in time, it was one of the few kind 1:29:19.560 --> 1:29:23.680 of established gaming franchises that had a story that was 1:29:23.760 --> 1:29:26.040 interesting and took place in the real world and had 1:29:26.120 --> 1:29:29.880 characters and things. So kind of from that point, I 1:29:29.960 --> 1:29:34.120 was really digging into kind of a lifelong interest in storytelling, 1:29:34.280 --> 1:29:39.040 especially what we can do with it interactively, and continue 1:29:39.080 --> 1:29:42.400 to be frustrated somewhat by working for these bigger publishers. 1:29:43.280 --> 1:29:46.000 And at one point I worked for three years I 1:29:46.120 --> 1:29:49.640 was directing and writing this this big budget video game 1:29:49.680 --> 1:29:53.080 that got canceled, and that kind of gave me a 1:29:53.200 --> 1:29:56.080 moment to kind of sit and think, like, what what 1:29:56.240 --> 1:29:57.360 do I want to do? Do I want to get 1:29:57.360 --> 1:30:00.280 on board another of these big video games. I was 1:30:00.439 --> 1:30:05.880 very frustrated at the kind of incremental change that you 1:30:05.960 --> 1:30:07.960 see in the kind of bigger budget video game space. 1:30:08.080 --> 1:30:11.000 It feels like things happened very slowly, which can be frustrating. 1:30:11.479 --> 1:30:13.920 So I was kind of looking around. This was when 1:30:14.479 --> 1:30:17.360 like iPhones, people gaming on their iPhones and stuff was 1:30:17.439 --> 1:30:20.080 kind of starting to blow up. The fact that you 1:30:20.160 --> 1:30:25.360 could now distribute a game individually digitally and reach an 1:30:25.360 --> 1:30:28.360 audience was sort of changing the landscape. So I kind 1:30:28.400 --> 1:30:31.360 of felt like I should get into that. And so 1:30:32.280 --> 1:30:35.360 at its conception, her story was was me going, what 1:30:35.479 --> 1:30:38.479 are all the things I've wanted to do that that 1:30:38.600 --> 1:30:40.360 I wasn't able to do when I was working with 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:43.440 these bigger budgets, with these more established kind of gaming templates. 1:30:44.000 --> 1:30:47.640 So from the get go it was I wanted to 1:30:48.800 --> 1:30:51.800 deal with characters that essentially lived in the real world, 1:30:52.360 --> 1:30:55.320 which is a hard pitch. You know, if you're asking 1:30:55.360 --> 1:30:57.600 for big bucks, every video game has to essentially be 1:30:57.640 --> 1:30:59.920 about superhero. It needs to be some kind of wish 1:31:00.000 --> 1:31:03.479 fulfilment for a teenage boy is generally what people are 1:31:03.520 --> 1:31:06.920 asking for. Uh. And the big thing with her story 1:31:07.120 --> 1:31:12.000 was subtext as someone's interesting storytelling. Us always trying to 1:31:12.080 --> 1:31:15.800 push how important subtext is and the idea that there is. 1:31:16.160 --> 1:31:18.120 You know, there are layers to a narrative that you're 1:31:18.160 --> 1:31:19.920 not spelling out for the audience that they're going to 1:31:20.000 --> 1:31:23.439 extract through performance or through whatever um And that was 1:31:23.479 --> 1:31:26.240 always a hard sell when you were kind of dealing 1:31:26.439 --> 1:31:30.760 with these kind of bigger companies that had a very 1:31:30.800 --> 1:31:32.559 simple idea of what their audience was. So I wanted 1:31:32.600 --> 1:31:35.519 to prove that the audience was actually smarter than we 1:31:35.560 --> 1:31:38.679 were giving them credit for, and that if you gave 1:31:38.840 --> 1:31:41.360 more control to them, if you gave more of the 1:31:41.840 --> 1:31:45.080 kind of work of piecing these stories together, that that 1:31:45.160 --> 1:31:47.320 would be not not just something they could do, but 1:31:47.439 --> 1:31:50.880 which would actually be more interesting and more personal and um, 1:31:51.240 --> 1:31:54.160 you know, and with her story, I had a kind 1:31:54.200 --> 1:31:58.200 of lifelong love of like crime fiction and slightly more 1:31:58.240 --> 1:32:01.479 kind of gothic leaning crime fiction. And so it's like, right, 1:32:01.479 --> 1:32:05.200 I'm gonna create a video game which is in that 1:32:05.360 --> 1:32:08.200 world and which kind of breaks a lot of the 1:32:08.320 --> 1:32:10.960 established rules of how you might tell a story. Um, 1:32:12.040 --> 1:32:15.639 and you know, a lot of that I was pulling from, Yeah, 1:32:16.600 --> 1:32:19.679 my love of some of the more kind of avant 1:32:19.760 --> 1:32:24.200 garde literally stuff, interesting pieces of kind of movies and things. 1:32:24.360 --> 1:32:25.720 But it was, it was, it was pulling from a 1:32:25.760 --> 1:32:29.000 lot of different kind of storytelling traditions and ending up 1:32:29.080 --> 1:32:31.639 in this this interesting place where, like you say, it's 1:32:31.760 --> 1:32:35.840 kind of a game experience where you're essentially researching the 1:32:35.880 --> 1:32:39.240 story yourself and kind of putting the pieces together. Yeah. Yeah, 1:32:39.320 --> 1:32:41.520 for for people who don't know, it's like you're basically 1:32:41.960 --> 1:32:45.160 on a virtual desktop, um, and you're sorting through like 1:32:45.240 --> 1:32:49.439 a hard drive full of footage and the versatility of 1:32:49.520 --> 1:32:51.720 the game, and you know, people learning how to use 1:32:51.800 --> 1:32:54.360 like search terms, right, just like people try to use 1:32:54.400 --> 1:32:57.080 like UM in open source it's called like using like 1:32:58.439 --> 1:33:01.760 Google operators. It's this kind of the same thing. Um. 1:33:01.960 --> 1:33:03.320 But also there's like the other side of things. I 1:33:03.360 --> 1:33:05.840 think Belling Cat wrote an article about your game where 1:33:05.880 --> 1:33:08.840 they like made like a Python script to scan all 1:33:08.920 --> 1:33:11.160 of the videos for specific keywords and put them into 1:33:11.200 --> 1:33:13.519 like different folders and files. So it's like you can 1:33:13.600 --> 1:33:15.280 do the thing where you just like search it, but 1:33:15.360 --> 1:33:17.760 you could like take this to a ridiculous level or 1:33:17.920 --> 1:33:19.920 you're like breaking the game open and doing it like 1:33:20.000 --> 1:33:22.040 you're actually like investigating this and you need to be 1:33:22.160 --> 1:33:25.240 very quick. UM. So I think her story is is 1:33:25.280 --> 1:33:28.640 a lovely intro to this type of game concept. And 1:33:28.760 --> 1:33:34.360 then for telling lies, you kind of changed you change 1:33:34.360 --> 1:33:36.479 some things with it. Um. You made like I guess, 1:33:36.600 --> 1:33:38.479 I guess like an expansion would be the way I 1:33:38.520 --> 1:33:41.280 would describe it for how it like takes the same 1:33:41.360 --> 1:33:44.040 concept and pushes it further. And I think watching these 1:33:44.120 --> 1:33:47.639 things now, it is very different after being like two 1:33:47.720 --> 1:33:51.360 years on Zoom. Right, I'm I'm sure, I'm sure you've 1:33:51.560 --> 1:33:53.360 heard this from other people as well as, like, you know, 1:33:53.560 --> 1:33:56.200 because because because of how telling lies operates, it's like 1:33:56.880 --> 1:33:59.840 a lot of it is well you open the game 1:34:00.000 --> 1:34:02.240 as you're basically cracking open and then I say hard drive, 1:34:02.439 --> 1:34:06.479 so all of it is video from like webcams and stuff. Um, 1:34:06.880 --> 1:34:09.639 so you know, watching people talking to their computer camera 1:34:09.760 --> 1:34:14.519 like this after spending years on Zoom definitely hits harder. 1:34:14.560 --> 1:34:17.120 I guess it was one of those things where so 1:34:17.240 --> 1:34:20.720 when we were first working on this and conceiving of it, 1:34:22.280 --> 1:34:27.200 which was I don't know, maybe and something like that. Um, 1:34:28.000 --> 1:34:30.080 there was a leap, right, and as a storyteller you 1:34:30.160 --> 1:34:32.360 allow yourself sometimes to take that one leap that the 1:34:32.400 --> 1:34:34.680 audience will take with you. And the leap there was 1:34:34.800 --> 1:34:39.240 like these people are using video chat a lot. But 1:34:39.640 --> 1:34:42.120 I mean and as I was starting to put it together, 1:34:42.200 --> 1:34:45.760 I would start noticing people around that time doing video 1:34:45.840 --> 1:34:48.120 chat in the street on their phones, which was something 1:34:48.160 --> 1:34:49.760 I was not used to sing and I was like, oh, ship, 1:34:49.840 --> 1:34:52.280 maybe this is not too big of a leap. Um, 1:34:52.479 --> 1:34:54.760 But yeah, I think I think it was the virgin 1:34:54.840 --> 1:34:58.640 or somebody ran an article that like, Telling Lies is 1:34:58.680 --> 1:35:02.040 still a great game, uh mid pandemic, it's just real 1:35:02.120 --> 1:35:05.559 hard to play now that that like this Zoom thing 1:35:05.840 --> 1:35:08.040 is our lives. I mean I was like, yeah, that 1:35:08.160 --> 1:35:10.800 was that was a big thing I was interested in 1:35:10.840 --> 1:35:14.559 at the time, was like, what what is this doing 1:35:14.640 --> 1:35:17.519 to us? What is communicating over the internet? How does 1:35:17.600 --> 1:35:20.560 that change how conversations and and things happen? And was 1:35:20.600 --> 1:35:22.160 kind of looking into some of the research there, so 1:35:22.280 --> 1:35:26.920 that Yeah, that was wild. Was was was kind of 1:35:27.000 --> 1:35:28.960 living in that world for several years putting the game 1:35:29.000 --> 1:35:33.040 out and then spending two years on Zoom calls. Yeah. 1:35:33.200 --> 1:35:35.120 I mean in a few ways, I think the game 1:35:35.160 --> 1:35:38.320 has aged very well because of that, and because the 1:35:38.439 --> 1:35:41.920 way people People are more used to interacting with the 1:35:41.960 --> 1:35:45.120 computer in that format now, so when they're you know, 1:35:45.360 --> 1:35:48.000 trying to search for these like hundreds of video files, 1:35:48.040 --> 1:35:50.880 I think they can understand it better. Um So, in 1:35:50.960 --> 1:35:52.800 some ways, I think it's not it's not necessarily a 1:35:52.840 --> 1:35:56.920 bad thing. Um But yeah, let's see. So I think, well, 1:35:57.520 --> 1:36:00.800 I want to talk a bit about kind of the 1:36:00.960 --> 1:36:05.000 influences for kind of the surveillance aspect, because, like her 1:36:05.120 --> 1:36:08.680 story is filmed in like a police um interrogation room 1:36:08.720 --> 1:36:12.400 for based basically basically the whole thing, whereas this pulls 1:36:12.520 --> 1:36:16.200 video footage of people like in private moments. Essentially. Of course, 1:36:16.280 --> 1:36:18.400 this was like after like the Snowden stuff and after 1:36:18.520 --> 1:36:20.960 all of the other kind of after the you know, 1:36:21.000 --> 1:36:25.040 surveillance became a bigger talking point. Um, But what what 1:36:25.240 --> 1:36:28.439 got you to decide you wanted to kind of revolve 1:36:28.520 --> 1:36:32.160 the game around this concept of internet surveillance. And then 1:36:32.400 --> 1:36:35.200 you know, different three letter agencies kind of fighting each 1:36:35.200 --> 1:36:38.200 other a little bit. So I think it was two things. 1:36:38.360 --> 1:36:42.680 One was in making her story and making lots of 1:36:42.760 --> 1:36:45.960 decisions somewhat intuitively kind of when it was finished and 1:36:46.360 --> 1:36:48.080 it was a big success, and I looked back on it, 1:36:48.680 --> 1:36:50.760 and then kind of when a little bit of time 1:36:50.840 --> 1:36:53.120 and passed, I then had this very different relationship where 1:36:53.120 --> 1:36:55.200 I had forgotten that I was the person that had 1:36:55.240 --> 1:36:57.600 made it and so could have opinions about it. And 1:36:57.920 --> 1:37:01.520 I was really interested in how that that game established 1:37:01.600 --> 1:37:05.000 a level of intimacy with the main character that Viva plays, 1:37:05.080 --> 1:37:08.200 that you're seeing being interrogated, despite the fact that it's 1:37:08.240 --> 1:37:10.800 happening through a computer desktop, despite the fact that there's 1:37:10.840 --> 1:37:14.080 none of what traditionally, you know that the agency you 1:37:14.080 --> 1:37:16.759 would traditionally having a video game, which you know, conventional 1:37:16.800 --> 1:37:19.800 logic would be that's how you would establish the idea 1:37:19.840 --> 1:37:21.719 that this person is alive and that you're in contact 1:37:21.760 --> 1:37:25.880 with them. But the act of like digging into all 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:28.479 this video footage of Viva and seeing her on screen 1:37:28.840 --> 1:37:32.519 talking essentially at you created this this interesting amount of 1:37:32.520 --> 1:37:34.680 intimacy that a lot of people responded to. So I 1:37:34.760 --> 1:37:36.479 was like, well, that's one of the things that is 1:37:36.560 --> 1:37:40.000 interesting to me to take further, because it's it's very 1:37:40.200 --> 1:37:43.840 rare that a video game creates this sensation of kind 1:37:43.880 --> 1:37:47.040 of intimacy or of getting close to or understanding people. 1:37:47.640 --> 1:37:51.560 And then it was Snowden UM. I think it was 1:37:51.680 --> 1:37:57.360 one of the the early reports UM from from all 1:37:57.400 --> 1:38:00.479 the various things that came out via Snowden. There was 1:38:00.520 --> 1:38:05.599 a particular UM operation in the UK, which I think 1:38:05.720 --> 1:38:08.720 was called Optic Nerve or something, and the idea there 1:38:08.840 --> 1:38:11.680 was that they were spying on everyone's Internet traffic. And 1:38:11.680 --> 1:38:13.240 I think it's a little bit easier to do that 1:38:13.680 --> 1:38:17.840 in the UK than it is elsewhere. And this one 1:38:17.880 --> 1:38:20.840 particular operation I remember there was a PowerPoint slide that 1:38:21.000 --> 1:38:25.360 was leaked that was like their internal presentation which proved 1:38:25.400 --> 1:38:28.680 that like in any leaked government PowerPoint will be the 1:38:28.760 --> 1:38:31.639 worst power point you've ever seen, like the clip art 1:38:31.760 --> 1:38:35.200 and just terrible nous, right um. But in this scheme 1:38:35.280 --> 1:38:38.200 what they did and this blew my mind was for 1:38:38.320 --> 1:38:40.639 a period of I think it was two years, every 1:38:40.840 --> 1:38:44.200 single video chat that went through Yahoo in the UK 1:38:44.840 --> 1:38:49.439 was captured and recorded, and they had this issue, which 1:38:49.520 --> 1:38:51.400 I think is if you want to talk about surveillance 1:38:51.479 --> 1:38:57.800 kind of post nine eleven, the big problem with surveillance 1:38:58.000 --> 1:39:00.120 and the extent to which is now used, is what 1:39:00.160 --> 1:39:02.639 do you do with all this data? Like it's it's 1:39:02.760 --> 1:39:08.320 it's just too much. So they they were capturing all 1:39:08.400 --> 1:39:13.400 this Yahoo video chat and attempting to add the metadata 1:39:13.520 --> 1:39:15.639 and sort it, which is kind of interesting because that's 1:39:15.680 --> 1:39:17.680 kind of to some extent kind of how something like 1:39:17.760 --> 1:39:21.360 her story worked. Yeah. Yeah, And the biggest issue they 1:39:21.439 --> 1:39:23.360 had and they put up this power point and it 1:39:23.400 --> 1:39:28.800 blew my mind, was thirty of all the video chat 1:39:28.920 --> 1:39:32.400 through Yahoo at this point was sexual in nature, and 1:39:32.800 --> 1:39:36.639 they were concerned about the feelings of their operatives who 1:39:36.680 --> 1:39:39.280 were doing the tagging of all this data, so they'd 1:39:39.320 --> 1:39:41.519 put their best computer minds on it, and they'd come 1:39:41.560 --> 1:39:44.240 up with an algorithm which would detect an excessive amount 1:39:44.240 --> 1:39:46.960 of skin tone and would then kind of flag and 1:39:47.080 --> 1:39:49.519 silo those clips. And I just remember reading this and 1:39:49.600 --> 1:39:52.639 being like, what about the feelings of the people whose 1:39:52.680 --> 1:39:56.400 skin tone you're capturing? Right? Like you weren't you weren't 1:39:56.400 --> 1:39:58.439 stopping to think like why are we doing this? Shouldn't 1:39:58.479 --> 1:40:01.040 be doing this? You're you're you're solving for the problem 1:40:01.080 --> 1:40:02.880 of like how do we stop our agents seeing all 1:40:02.920 --> 1:40:04.960 this newity? And I think there was there was a 1:40:05.000 --> 1:40:07.000 bunch of other anecdotes right in the snowed and stuff 1:40:07.080 --> 1:40:12.439 of people alongside him, like you know, looking through people's 1:40:12.439 --> 1:40:15.240 webcoun data and stuff and in a in a voyeuristic way, 1:40:15.320 --> 1:40:19.720 and just this constant invasion of people's rights. So I 1:40:19.800 --> 1:40:22.040 think that it was one of those things where I 1:40:22.120 --> 1:40:27.400 was like, oh, this is this is like new, Like, uh, 1:40:27.640 --> 1:40:30.519 you know we now have you know you you you 1:40:30.680 --> 1:40:35.120 worry about certain levels of like your privacy being invaded, 1:40:35.160 --> 1:40:37.679 and you would certainly worry if someone was letting themselves 1:40:37.720 --> 1:40:40.800 into your house at night. But we suddenly found ourselves 1:40:40.800 --> 1:40:43.160 in this position where we have these phones that we 1:40:43.280 --> 1:40:45.680 put by our bedside at night that have cameras and 1:40:45.760 --> 1:40:50.719 microphones that are pretty much just running right and capturing, 1:40:50.800 --> 1:40:56.160 and just the extent to which now technology has transformed surveillance. 1:40:57.080 --> 1:40:59.560 And that that was really interesting to me because I, 1:41:00.560 --> 1:41:04.280 um and a big thing I wanted to do, you know, 1:41:04.320 --> 1:41:07.760 I've made her story. And like, growing up, I loved 1:41:07.800 --> 1:41:13.400 cop shows, and I particularly loved the good ones, like Homicide, 1:41:13.439 --> 1:41:15.040 Life on the Street in the US. There was a 1:41:15.080 --> 1:41:18.000 show in the UK called Cracker Um and these were like, 1:41:18.120 --> 1:41:23.280 you know, somewhat nuanced in how they with policing, but 1:41:23.479 --> 1:41:24.960 you know, you're you're still you know, we're in this 1:41:25.040 --> 1:41:28.400 position now where we're starting to ask deeper questions about 1:41:28.800 --> 1:41:32.320 whether we should watch this many cops shows. Yeah, when 1:41:32.320 --> 1:41:36.240 they're like the main thing on all television all the time. Yeah, exactly. 1:41:36.800 --> 1:41:40.080 And that would be like when I made her story, 1:41:40.160 --> 1:41:43.400 Partly I pitched the bigger publishers like we should do 1:41:44.160 --> 1:41:45.840 the equivalent of a cop show like that, we should 1:41:45.880 --> 1:41:49.200 do crime fictional cop show, video game, and they would 1:41:49.200 --> 1:41:51.320 always be like nah, And I would say, well, look, 1:41:51.400 --> 1:41:53.400 this is like the evergreen. You know, if you're a 1:41:53.400 --> 1:41:55.080 book publisher. You have a crime show, you have a 1:41:55.120 --> 1:41:57.280 crime book. You know, if you doing movies, you're going 1:41:57.320 --> 1:42:01.960 to have some movies with this genres it works, And 1:42:02.000 --> 1:42:04.439 they would always kind of push against that. So when 1:42:04.479 --> 1:42:07.320 I made her story, that was, in fact, like the 1:42:07.640 --> 1:42:10.880 arc of of playing her story to some extent mirrors 1:42:10.920 --> 1:42:13.120 my ark in that. Like at the top of it, 1:42:13.200 --> 1:42:15.760 I was like, I want to make an interesting detective game, 1:42:16.720 --> 1:42:20.439 and I want to deconstruct how detective stories work. And 1:42:21.040 --> 1:42:23.879 I then started to do a bunch of research whereas 1:42:24.320 --> 1:42:28.800 digging into, well, how do actual criminal investigations work, how 1:42:28.880 --> 1:42:32.240 does one interrogate the suspect doing all that stuff? And 1:42:32.280 --> 1:42:35.200 then I started to pull up what at the time 1:42:35.280 --> 1:42:37.400 like there was a bit it was slightly ahead of 1:42:37.479 --> 1:42:40.160 like the true crime explosion, but there was starting to 1:42:40.240 --> 1:42:43.599 be stuff on YouTube and in various places where footage 1:42:43.600 --> 1:42:46.479 from real investigations was online, and it was starting to 1:42:46.560 --> 1:42:49.720 get a bit weird and interesting, and that people were 1:42:49.800 --> 1:42:54.479 kind of vicariously watching these things. And yeah, thats as 1:42:54.760 --> 1:42:56.920 questions they were trying to piece thegether their own kind 1:42:56.960 --> 1:43:01.400 of conclusions based on these leaked or sometimes officially released 1:43:01.479 --> 1:43:05.720 interview segments. Yeah, and and there was one in particularly 1:43:05.760 --> 1:43:08.240 got really into the Jodi Arias case. It's just like 1:43:09.479 --> 1:43:12.519 and and the way the media spun that story and 1:43:12.960 --> 1:43:16.120 just really dug into Oh, there's like sex and murder 1:43:16.200 --> 1:43:18.920 and Mormons, and there's this beautiful blonde woman who now 1:43:19.080 --> 1:43:22.760 when she goes to court has gone brunette, and they 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:26.919 were endlessly talking about on cable news like her parents 1:43:27.040 --> 1:43:30.559 and setting her up as this kind of them fatal 1:43:30.920 --> 1:43:35.200 kind of ice maiden. On the slip side of this, 1:43:35.360 --> 1:43:37.800 I think there's like the thing with them the Making 1:43:37.840 --> 1:43:40.519 the Murderer documentary, which I think I have some issues 1:43:40.600 --> 1:43:43.840 with how they handle the main guy, but particularly how 1:43:43.960 --> 1:43:48.840 they showed the totally immoral interrogation tactics used on used 1:43:48.880 --> 1:43:51.960 on Brandon the kid um, and that really cracked that 1:43:52.000 --> 1:43:54.759 whole thing open, being like, yeah, the way the police 1:43:54.800 --> 1:43:58.920 are interrogating minors without it was the lawyers is shocking. 1:43:59.200 --> 1:44:01.120 And that was I was that was part of this 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:04.320 transition for me, was was going into her story with like, 1:44:04.439 --> 1:44:06.840 the hero of this is the detective. It's Andre Brower 1:44:06.840 --> 1:44:09.000 and homicide Life from the Street. It's the genius detective 1:44:09.040 --> 1:44:10.719 that's going to come in there and crack this case. 1:44:11.400 --> 1:44:14.960 And the more I dug into in cases like Jody's, 1:44:15.280 --> 1:44:21.800 where um there word various um aspects to that case. 1:44:22.520 --> 1:44:26.320 She definitely did murder her lover, but there are lots 1:44:26.360 --> 1:44:30.280 of questions around whether the relationship itself was particularly healthy. Um. 1:44:30.880 --> 1:44:32.560 And by the end of it, like all of my 1:44:32.640 --> 1:44:36.320 sympathy was with Jody, not with the interrogator who you 1:44:36.439 --> 1:44:40.080 watch it and you realize that, like, the reason this 1:44:40.240 --> 1:44:42.920 person is in this situation is because their life has 1:44:42.960 --> 1:44:47.559 gone very badly, and the reason for that is everything 1:44:47.640 --> 1:44:49.960 that's happened in their life prior to this, and they've 1:44:50.000 --> 1:44:52.560 never spoken to anyone about any of this stuff. And 1:44:52.800 --> 1:44:56.000 suddenly they're in this room with the homicide detective who's like, hey, 1:44:56.120 --> 1:44:58.200 you can talk to me. I'm the first person that's 1:44:58.240 --> 1:45:00.240 going to sit and listen to you, and and all 1:45:00.280 --> 1:45:02.920 these tricks that they use to just get people talking, 1:45:03.280 --> 1:45:05.240 and it becomes very intimate and becomes kind of like 1:45:05.320 --> 1:45:08.400 therapy session. But by the end of it so so 1:45:08.560 --> 1:45:11.479 for me, Like the hook of her story is, oh, 1:45:11.640 --> 1:45:13.800 you get to solve a murder, but really, by the 1:45:13.920 --> 1:45:18.800 end of it, it's like a character port should entirely 1:45:18.880 --> 1:45:24.040 be with her that is less about seeing justice done right. 1:45:24.120 --> 1:45:26.439 So I even but even coming away from that, I 1:45:26.560 --> 1:45:30.320 was like, I still feel slightly uncomfortable with with kind 1:45:30.320 --> 1:45:33.800 of having made this thing that is reveling in how 1:45:33.960 --> 1:45:36.679 much fun it is to be involved in the police 1:45:36.680 --> 1:45:41.160 work or whatever. And so I was definitely thinking about 1:45:41.200 --> 1:45:44.560 the snows and stuff thinking about that aspect and the 1:45:44.640 --> 1:45:51.960 extent to which technology has just so empowered policing in 1:45:52.120 --> 1:45:55.920 general to the point where it's there's this great um. 1:45:56.320 --> 1:45:58.200 Like one of the core themes that I wanted to 1:45:58.240 --> 1:46:00.559 dig into and telling lies was the when you see 1:46:00.600 --> 1:46:04.240 people try and defend this stuff and defend policing in general, 1:46:04.400 --> 1:46:07.519 is they try and set it up so that you 1:46:07.640 --> 1:46:11.439 basically have They talk in terms of families and very 1:46:11.560 --> 1:46:14.120 close relationships, so they're kind of like, well, the government 1:46:14.360 --> 1:46:17.560 is your parent, and they're trying to look after you. 1:46:17.680 --> 1:46:20.360 And you understand as a parent, you're going to sometimes 1:46:22.200 --> 1:46:24.479 invade the privacy of your children or sometimes you're going 1:46:24.520 --> 1:46:27.599 to inhibit their freedoms because you're trying to protect them. 1:46:28.040 --> 1:46:30.400 And we all understand that, and that's part of being human, 1:46:30.640 --> 1:46:32.720 and that's all that's happening here with government, right We're 1:46:32.720 --> 1:46:35.160 trying to protect you from the Big Bad the Evil. 1:46:35.320 --> 1:46:38.880 I sort of like there's some tweet from the YPD 1:46:38.880 --> 1:46:41.559 the other day that was like, you'll be come, You'll 1:46:41.560 --> 1:46:44.560 come running when evil is on your doorstep. Someone was 1:46:44.560 --> 1:46:49.720 saying something macros and and and for me, once you 1:46:49.920 --> 1:46:53.240 you take that understanding of how people relate directly to 1:46:53.280 --> 1:46:56.600 which they have, families, work, the second you scale it 1:46:57.200 --> 1:46:59.720 to the size of government, it breaks like that you 1:47:00.120 --> 1:47:02.280 d not extent that metaphor. And then when you add 1:47:02.400 --> 1:47:06.920 in tech, um, you know the extent to which uh, 1:47:07.240 --> 1:47:11.200 you know, privacy has been degraded, our freedoms. Um. You 1:47:11.280 --> 1:47:15.200 know when you start just blanket looking for crime, right, 1:47:16.360 --> 1:47:18.640 you start creating all the systemic issues that we have 1:47:18.880 --> 1:47:23.439 just suddenly become amplified. Um. So that that to me 1:47:23.760 --> 1:47:28.400 was kind of interesting. Um, well, you know, here is 1:47:29.640 --> 1:47:33.000 like a means to explore that. And I like one 1:47:33.040 --> 1:47:35.400 of the things that was interesting to me about her 1:47:35.439 --> 1:47:39.640 story that in retrospect was the extent to which it 1:47:39.680 --> 1:47:42.120 was about watching video, which seems like a dumb thing 1:47:42.200 --> 1:47:45.000 to say, but like the choice to use real video 1:47:46.360 --> 1:47:49.400 kind of inspired by watching all these interrogation piece of 1:47:49.439 --> 1:47:52.200 footage from Jodi and people. Um, you know it was 1:47:52.360 --> 1:47:54.720 was kind of made, oh yeah, that makes sense, and 1:47:54.800 --> 1:47:56.040 I just kind of got on with it. But then 1:47:56.120 --> 1:47:58.439 looking back, I was like, oh, well, it's interesting because 1:47:58.479 --> 1:48:01.519 people talk about this game as being an interactive movie, 1:48:01.840 --> 1:48:03.680 but it's nothing like a movie. No, not at all, 1:48:03.800 --> 1:48:06.280 and it's not how movies work. It just happens that 1:48:06.400 --> 1:48:09.960 it uses a video camera. Only similarity is that it 1:48:10.000 --> 1:48:13.120 has live action footage. That yea. So I was like, 1:48:13.240 --> 1:48:16.040 I really want to go even further into that texture. 1:48:16.080 --> 1:48:17.880 And so I was just thinking about and when I 1:48:17.960 --> 1:48:20.200 was starting to do my research, like the idea of 1:48:20.280 --> 1:48:25.880 surveillance and and the commonalities between like classic old school surveillance, 1:48:26.160 --> 1:48:30.000 I you know, someone sat in a car some binoculars 1:48:30.040 --> 1:48:34.800 watching someone and and modern surveillance. The commonalities that it's 1:48:34.880 --> 1:48:38.439 quite boring, right, there's just a lot of sitting and 1:48:38.560 --> 1:48:43.120 watching doing nothing. Yeah, right. And but out of that 1:48:43.360 --> 1:48:45.919 and when you kind of read the first hand accounts 1:48:45.960 --> 1:48:48.160 of the people doing the surveillance or some of the 1:48:48.200 --> 1:48:52.080 depictions of this media, like there's a level of intimacy 1:48:52.760 --> 1:48:57.000 that you get with the person you're surveilling, right where 1:48:57.200 --> 1:48:58.760 you know, if you're just sat watching them, when you 1:48:58.880 --> 1:49:00.800 chef someone's life, if you're listening to a bug in 1:49:00.880 --> 1:49:03.679 someone's kitchen and just hearing all the just everyday ship 1:49:03.720 --> 1:49:07.200 in their lives, or if you are you know, watching 1:49:07.240 --> 1:49:10.759 them through some kind of technology. Um, you're just spending 1:49:10.840 --> 1:49:13.320 all this time with them, and that's like a that's 1:49:13.360 --> 1:49:16.320 like a very non cinematic thing. It's just like this 1:49:16.479 --> 1:49:19.000 that menu sha and the time stretching out of just 1:49:19.439 --> 1:49:23.320 being present with somebody. And that was kind of interesting 1:49:23.400 --> 1:49:27.000 to me of just kind of putting you in that 1:49:27.160 --> 1:49:31.720 headspace and kind of thinking about what that means. I 1:49:31.840 --> 1:49:34.680 think that totally gets through because of the way you 1:49:34.880 --> 1:49:37.280 break up the conversations and telling lies. You have to 1:49:37.400 --> 1:49:40.679 sit and watch these characters as they're just doing nothing 1:49:40.840 --> 1:49:44.040 for sometimes like like over five minutes. They're just like 1:49:44.160 --> 1:49:47.679 sitting there, um, and you do get like very intimate 1:49:47.760 --> 1:49:49.840 with these characters, but it almost like in a very 1:49:49.920 --> 1:49:53.800 like creepy way where you like you feel like I 1:49:53.920 --> 1:49:57.040 shouldn't be here, which is kind of the general feeling 1:49:57.080 --> 1:49:59.760 of telling us really interesting because I like some people 1:50:00.000 --> 1:50:02.440 to have a very and this was you know, completely 1:50:03.120 --> 1:50:07.640 again like trying to process how I felt watching the 1:50:07.840 --> 1:50:10.880 like the videos of all the various police interrogations and stuff. 1:50:10.960 --> 1:50:14.200 Was like, this is fascinating because there's human beings were 1:50:14.240 --> 1:50:17.439 fascinated by other human beings, and here is this extremely interesting, 1:50:17.560 --> 1:50:20.639 dramatic stuff where people are just really spilling their lives out. 1:50:20.920 --> 1:50:23.320 That's why true crime blew up, right, But then you 1:50:23.439 --> 1:50:26.439 have all these moral questions around it. And obviously with 1:50:27.400 --> 1:50:29.800 turning lies, it's inspired by lots of real things, but 1:50:29.880 --> 1:50:33.360 it's fake and you're watching actors act this stuff. But 1:50:33.479 --> 1:50:36.000 still some people would have this real visceral reaction of 1:50:36.120 --> 1:50:38.880 like I shouldn't be watching some of this stuff, and 1:50:39.240 --> 1:50:42.000 I'd be like, I mean, you you can. It's like 1:50:42.920 --> 1:50:45.440 that was that was where it became really not cinematic 1:50:45.560 --> 1:50:47.920 to me, was like, you know, if you're watching a 1:50:49.000 --> 1:50:52.240 you know, a noir film or you know, a thriller 1:50:53.000 --> 1:50:56.720 and you have you know, or even like the The 1:50:56.800 --> 1:50:58.519 thing for the domestic stuff for me was, you know, 1:50:58.560 --> 1:51:00.720 you could watch and it was sitcom, watching any a 1:51:00.800 --> 1:51:05.200 normal sitcom, and the husband and wife sat in bed chatting. 1:51:05.640 --> 1:51:07.600 At no point do you feel like I shouldn't be 1:51:07.680 --> 1:51:10.719 here because you're in the kind of classic Hollywood invisible 1:51:10.800 --> 1:51:13.959 camera set up. You're this, you know, you have permission 1:51:14.000 --> 1:51:16.600 to be there as the invisible camera spectator, and it 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:19.240 doesn't feel as weird as it would if you're hiding 1:51:19.280 --> 1:51:23.320 in the closet of this couple's bedroom. Um So, with 1:51:23.439 --> 1:51:26.400 the setup I'm telling Lies, you immediately feel like, oh, 1:51:27.040 --> 1:51:30.400 like this, I am in this position that I shouldn't be. 1:51:30.520 --> 1:51:35.240 So suddenly all those more domestic moments become charged with 1:51:35.320 --> 1:51:37.880 like a very different vibe. Yeah, because you're watching them 1:51:37.920 --> 1:51:40.200 and you're you're not invited, like right, you're you know, 1:51:40.360 --> 1:51:42.760 you're sitting looking at this ns A horror drive and 1:51:42.760 --> 1:51:44.200 you're like, yeah, I'm not supposed to be watching this 1:51:44.360 --> 1:51:46.920 like this, this this isn't They never invited me into 1:51:47.000 --> 1:51:50.960 this conversation. Telling Lies very much feels like a much 1:51:51.000 --> 1:51:54.200 more mature game than her story, not in terms of 1:51:54.320 --> 1:51:56.599 like has like more mature content, but like in terms 1:51:56.640 --> 1:51:59.760 of like this concept growing up and like evolving and 1:52:00.120 --> 1:52:03.000 gaining more depth. Um particularly because you know, not only 1:52:03.040 --> 1:52:05.479 just because it has way more characters, but because you know, 1:52:05.560 --> 1:52:07.960 you get to know all of your kind of games 1:52:08.040 --> 1:52:10.680 deal with some degree of like characters lying to you 1:52:10.800 --> 1:52:12.639 and like just doing like straight lines to your face. 1:52:12.880 --> 1:52:14.800 That's kind of a That's my read on a lot 1:52:14.880 --> 1:52:17.200 of a lot of your games. Um, I mean you're 1:52:17.280 --> 1:52:20.920 the game is called Telling Lies, so so you definitely 1:52:21.040 --> 1:52:22.840 see like elements of of you know, all of these 1:52:22.840 --> 1:52:24.920 trying to figure out what is true and what is not. 1:52:25.439 --> 1:52:28.679 I think it is interesting looking at like how easier 1:52:28.760 --> 1:52:33.400 it is to lie via these technological platforms. Um, I 1:52:33.439 --> 1:52:36.240 don't know, to just like you feel like telling the 1:52:36.360 --> 1:52:38.280 truth is just so much more work and you may 1:52:38.360 --> 1:52:40.920 as well just get through this conversation by doing a 1:52:40.960 --> 1:52:43.639 few white lives, which is that inspiral out of control. Um. 1:52:44.000 --> 1:52:46.400 When you combine this with you know, law enforcement, infiltration 1:52:46.439 --> 1:52:47.720 and all this kind of stuff, he gets it gets 1:52:47.800 --> 1:52:50.800 very complicated, very quickly. Um. One thing that I think 1:52:50.840 --> 1:52:53.240 you guys handled very well in Telling Lies was kind 1:52:53.240 --> 1:52:56.000 of the activism side of things. So like when when 1:52:56.040 --> 1:52:58.679 I play this game, like almost immediately after coming back 1:52:59.160 --> 1:53:01.920 from the stop line, re protests, um and like and 1:53:02.120 --> 1:53:04.519 and like an Earth First gathering, you know, everyone there 1:53:04.600 --> 1:53:08.400 is always very people try to be aware of surveillance 1:53:08.439 --> 1:53:09.880 to be like, okay, you know, you don't talk about 1:53:09.920 --> 1:53:13.479 certain things if there's phones nearby and stuff. So so 1:53:13.720 --> 1:53:16.479 that whole side of things was very interesting to like 1:53:16.760 --> 1:53:19.040 play this game right afterwards because you have to see 1:53:19.040 --> 1:53:21.040 like the other side of things, being like, okay, if 1:53:21.080 --> 1:53:23.840 the the FBI is infiltrating this group, here's you know, 1:53:24.280 --> 1:53:25.560 one of the ways that they do it, and like 1:53:25.800 --> 1:53:29.759 that from my perspective being you know, in activism spaces 1:53:29.840 --> 1:53:32.000 for a while, not just like environmental ones, but you 1:53:32.080 --> 1:53:35.679 know other ones like here in Portland. Um, you had 1:53:36.040 --> 1:53:40.960 you handled this topic very accurately. Um, where what kind 1:53:41.000 --> 1:53:43.200 of stuff did you pull from to kind of create 1:53:43.320 --> 1:53:47.880 these like these you know environments and interactions between people 1:53:47.880 --> 1:53:49.760 because I'm not sure if you haven't experience yourself and 1:53:49.760 --> 1:53:52.160 stuff like this, or if you've got people onto like 1:53:52.240 --> 1:53:54.840 like you talk to people who are more experienced activists, 1:53:55.240 --> 1:53:57.280 what was kind of your inspiration for like, you know, 1:53:57.439 --> 1:53:59.960 the opposite side of things, not on the law enforcement. 1:54:00.400 --> 1:54:02.040 So that was that was like one of the big 1:54:02.560 --> 1:54:07.640 initial jumping off points. So uh like in terms of 1:54:07.800 --> 1:54:11.479 the kind of real life inspirations, Like the seed of 1:54:11.560 --> 1:54:15.560 this whole thing was Remember when this was it was 1:54:16.080 --> 1:54:19.640 I'm gonna say two could be completely wrong here, but 1:54:19.760 --> 1:54:22.960 it was The Guardian in the UK I think broke 1:54:23.040 --> 1:54:25.760 the story, but it was and and we've recently had 1:54:25.840 --> 1:54:30.519 some good progress in this this area, but broke the 1:54:30.600 --> 1:54:36.240 story of this UK spy Cops operation, which was a 1:54:36.400 --> 1:54:41.040 specific unit within the London Police whose job was to 1:54:41.440 --> 1:54:47.240 infiltrate groups, to surveil them from the inside. And um, 1:54:47.760 --> 1:54:51.320 it was horrific. And they're like a couple of things 1:54:51.360 --> 1:54:54.440 about it that were horrific. One of them was that like, 1:54:54.720 --> 1:54:59.120 essentially their modus operandi was to find vulnerable young women 1:54:59.280 --> 1:55:03.800 on the periph of groups, target them romantically, and then 1:55:03.960 --> 1:55:06.600 they would be the collateral to get you know, to 1:55:07.200 --> 1:55:10.720 have people then more solidly enter into these groups. And 1:55:10.800 --> 1:55:14.560 then they had like a whole you know, stepped plan 1:55:14.720 --> 1:55:17.080 of like once you're in, how you kind of would 1:55:17.160 --> 1:55:23.040 would destabilize steer these groups from within. Um. And the 1:55:24.280 --> 1:55:29.240 the thing that really made this even worse UM was 1:55:29.360 --> 1:55:32.800 the fact that most of the groups, I think maybe 1:55:32.840 --> 1:55:36.040 all of the groups targeted with this particular unit were 1:55:37.360 --> 1:55:43.760 green activists. There's this incredible, incredible, like you couldn't make 1:55:43.800 --> 1:55:48.400 this stuff up. But there's a famous libel case where 1:55:48.480 --> 1:55:51.280 McDonald's was suing these these two activists in the UK 1:55:51.520 --> 1:55:56.520 right because they were putting up flyers exposing some of 1:55:56.600 --> 1:56:01.200 the practices of McDonald's and the group that they were 1:56:01.360 --> 1:56:03.680 members of, which I think at this point was called 1:56:03.720 --> 1:56:06.040 Green Piece, but it was different to the kind of 1:56:06.120 --> 1:56:10.840 more famous Green Piece in London. Prior to them doing 1:56:10.960 --> 1:56:15.640 this big kind of McDonald's thing, UM was losing members 1:56:15.760 --> 1:56:17.920 and it got to a point where there were so 1:56:18.040 --> 1:56:21.200 few people in this group that it would have shut 1:56:21.320 --> 1:56:25.280 down had it not been for the fact that there 1:56:25.320 --> 1:56:30.280 were a large number of undercover cops in this group. 1:56:30.560 --> 1:56:32.920 So you know, if you imagine at some point they 1:56:32.960 --> 1:56:36.400 were actually more undercover cops and private security people undercover 1:56:36.480 --> 1:56:39.960 in this group that actual activists UM, which has enabled 1:56:40.000 --> 1:56:44.000 the group to continue. And in fact, the original flyer 1:56:44.120 --> 1:56:47.640 that they put out was written I forget the guy's 1:56:47.760 --> 1:56:51.280 name now by one of these undercover cops. He wrote 1:56:51.600 --> 1:56:55.760 the copy for this flyer that went out and then 1:56:55.920 --> 1:56:57.920 was you know, saw this these people dragged up in 1:56:58.000 --> 1:57:00.840 court and was this huge you know, Donald's won the case, 1:57:00.920 --> 1:57:03.160 but in terms of pr it was hugely damaging to them. 1:57:03.680 --> 1:57:07.120 But yeah, that that for me was the thing that 1:57:07.200 --> 1:57:09.200 seemed even more a point because because here you had 1:57:09.280 --> 1:57:15.160 this story of the state sanctioning the you know, one 1:57:15.240 --> 1:57:18.280 of the most terrible abuses like Essentially, you know, what 1:57:18.520 --> 1:57:23.680 was happening was pretty easy to to kind of call 1:57:23.760 --> 1:57:27.560 it rape, right. There was women in sexual relationships with 1:57:27.680 --> 1:57:31.160 people and thinking it was consensual, but not realizing that 1:57:31.400 --> 1:57:33.720 they this was you know, what they were getting into 1:57:33.840 --> 1:57:36.520 is not what they thought it was. And so this 1:57:36.960 --> 1:57:42.760 was just so appalling and like from a just to 1:57:42.800 --> 1:57:51.080 kind of base emotional level, just it was so hard 1:57:51.120 --> 1:57:54.360 for me to imagine the pain of um and these 1:57:54.400 --> 1:57:58.520 women when relationships with these undercover officers for years and 1:57:58.560 --> 1:58:01.280 then and and out of the modus operanda was when 1:58:01.320 --> 1:58:03.720 you were done, you had to exit and disappear, and 1:58:03.760 --> 1:58:07.600 they had this whole plan where the cops would claim 1:58:07.640 --> 1:58:09.520 that they were being followed and that they were worried, 1:58:09.640 --> 1:58:12.360 and then they would disappear, and then they would call 1:58:12.600 --> 1:58:14.760 from some European country and say that they've kind of 1:58:14.800 --> 1:58:17.640 fled the country because they were worried that the cops 1:58:17.680 --> 1:58:19.760 were onto them, and then they would slowly kind of 1:58:19.800 --> 1:58:22.040 disappear and this you know, some of these were kind 1:58:22.080 --> 1:58:24.840 of pre modern internet, so it was easier for someone 1:58:24.920 --> 1:58:28.360 to kind of disappear. But this stuff totally happened in 1:58:28.440 --> 1:58:31.000 the Green Scare in the States, in you know, around 1:58:31.240 --> 1:58:34.640 this was around. This was my big question was was 1:58:34.760 --> 1:58:37.880 this you know, some of these cases were kind of 1:58:37.880 --> 1:58:41.360 the original inspiration And when I started thinking about trying 1:58:41.400 --> 1:58:44.480 to tell a story inspired by their originally it starts 1:58:44.520 --> 1:58:47.600 off and and and it's still in based in the 1:58:47.720 --> 1:58:51.760 UK and based on these things. And there was a particular, ah, 1:58:52.680 --> 1:58:55.720 a particular flavor to it where the cops doing this 1:58:55.880 --> 1:58:58.160 work it was part of the matt Police who were 1:58:58.280 --> 1:59:02.760 you know, that's the more kind of gang story, Like 1:59:03.080 --> 1:59:05.960 there's there's a real reputation that the Met Police have. 1:59:06.240 --> 1:59:09.720 So these cops that were chosen for this work were 1:59:09.760 --> 1:59:11.560 the ones that were a bit more kind of marcho 1:59:11.680 --> 1:59:14.080 and edgy, and there were there was I mean, there 1:59:14.120 --> 1:59:15.840 was so much stuff to it was horrific, Like they 1:59:15.880 --> 1:59:22.800 would only pick cops that were married, um because they 1:59:22.920 --> 1:59:27.960 felt that that h gave them some level of ability 1:59:28.120 --> 1:59:32.240 to be sleeping with these activists and not lose themselves 1:59:32.320 --> 1:59:34.600 in it. Um. But obviously the wives didn't know what 1:59:34.680 --> 1:59:37.640 was hapdening um and and there's just there's so many 1:59:37.720 --> 1:59:41.080 layers of this that I just thought was it was awful, 1:59:41.120 --> 1:59:43.640 And coming off the first story, I was like, well, 1:59:44.320 --> 1:59:47.800 I would love to tell an undercover cops story in 1:59:47.960 --> 1:59:52.800 which we acknowledge that the undercover cop is bad. Yeah, 1:59:53.080 --> 1:59:55.600 they aren't, like you know, because because it's such a 1:59:55.720 --> 1:59:59.120 classic trope, is the undercover cops story. Because you get 1:59:59.200 --> 2:00:00.440 to have your cake and eat here. You get to 2:00:00.440 --> 2:00:02.760 see someone on both sides the law, you get, you 2:00:02.840 --> 2:00:05.960 get all the tension and thrills of it. But usually, 2:00:06.880 --> 2:00:09.520 you know, whatever, even if the if the movie or 2:00:09.560 --> 2:00:13.320 the story or whatever has a bittersweet ending, the protagonist 2:00:13.360 --> 2:00:17.000 is always the undercover cop. And ultimately, because they're the protagonist, 2:00:17.080 --> 2:00:19.360 they're the one that your heart goes to, right. And 2:00:19.840 --> 2:00:22.800 the secondary characters, whether that's like the wife and Donnie 2:00:22.800 --> 2:00:25.520 Brasco or Good Fellows or something, you know, they basically 2:00:25.600 --> 2:00:27.480 serve as a foil to the main character. So I 2:00:27.560 --> 2:00:31.800 was like, well, can we tell a story where, um, 2:00:32.480 --> 2:00:35.680 we we treat the wife and the activist who's being 2:00:35.680 --> 2:00:37.880 targeted and the other people on the periphery of this 2:00:38.040 --> 2:00:42.760 guy think more about their perspective on this world, and 2:00:42.840 --> 2:00:48.360 let's acknowledge from our perspective that this is wrong. Everything 2:00:48.400 --> 2:00:50.520 that's happening is wrong and it's not justified. And then 2:00:50.600 --> 2:00:53.000 let's just see what the impact is on people. UM. 2:00:53.640 --> 2:00:56.800 So once we started developing it, and when I was 2:00:56.840 --> 2:01:00.960 speaking to Anna partner about doing it, UM, I felt like, oh, 2:01:01.040 --> 2:01:04.800 we should move this to the States um to make 2:01:04.880 --> 2:01:10.040 it feel certainly as well, because the larger audiences American 2:01:10.160 --> 2:01:13.840 to to kind of reiterate and make it feel kind 2:01:13.880 --> 2:01:17.280 of more identifiable and have it be less quaint and British. Um. 2:01:17.640 --> 2:01:19.840 So my number one question from day one was like, well, 2:01:19.880 --> 2:01:22.760 does this ship happen in the States and as uch 2:01:22.800 --> 2:01:24.400 does it happen in the same way. And so we 2:01:24.480 --> 2:01:27.720 brought on a researcher who then started pulling stuff up 2:01:27.760 --> 2:01:31.880 and and the big thing for me was replacing the 2:01:32.120 --> 2:01:37.920 undercover group the met with the FBI, and and then 2:01:37.960 --> 2:01:40.720 I that became fascinating to me because then I started 2:01:40.760 --> 2:01:44.560 digging into the FBI and understanding their history and everything 2:01:44.640 --> 2:01:49.400 that's wrong there. But yeah, immediately I start seeing all 2:01:49.440 --> 2:01:54.160 these great examples of yeah, this explicit infiltration of green 2:01:54.240 --> 2:01:59.720 groups UM so, pretty horrific cases of entrapment um where 2:02:00.160 --> 2:02:03.640 you know, people infiltrate these groups and then encourage them 2:02:03.680 --> 2:02:07.440 to do more extreme and violent things. On the record. 2:02:08.000 --> 2:02:13.000 It's the point where you're listening to like recorded FBI stuff, 2:02:13.120 --> 2:02:15.440 and and you can hear the group being like, I'm 2:02:15.440 --> 2:02:17.440 not sure about that, Like that doesn't sound like a 2:02:17.560 --> 2:02:22.040 great idea, dude, And the the FBI person is they're 2:02:22.080 --> 2:02:25.200 going like, what, I don't know, I really do think 2:02:25.200 --> 2:02:29.400 we should blow this bridge up, guys. And it's so obvious, 2:02:29.600 --> 2:02:31.760 like when you listen to which is why a lot 2:02:31.840 --> 2:02:35.360 of these cases have ultimately been thrown out. But yeah, 2:02:35.400 --> 2:02:39.120 it was it was. It was, I guess for the project, 2:02:39.200 --> 2:02:42.880 reassuring to see that all this stuff was happening over here. Yeah. 2:02:43.440 --> 2:02:47.760 And the FBI, like the specific FBI agent that we 2:02:47.840 --> 2:02:52.840 kind of follow definitely feels very American and feels very real. Um. 2:02:53.440 --> 2:02:56.400 I really like the actor that you got to play him. Um, 2:02:56.560 --> 2:02:58.400 he definitely feels like a lot of kind of the 2:02:58.480 --> 2:03:03.800 law enforcement dudes who kind of handle this side of things. Um. 2:03:04.840 --> 2:03:06.840 That was that was That was definitely that was like 2:03:06.920 --> 2:03:10.480 an FBI. He became like the fbiis of it became 2:03:10.560 --> 2:03:12.960 very important to it. And it was interesting the way 2:03:13.440 --> 2:03:16.360 that the FBI they had this brand, which is partly 2:03:17.280 --> 2:03:19.480 reinforced by the media, Like they had the great idea 2:03:19.520 --> 2:03:24.120 back in forties or fifties to themselves fund and support 2:03:24.360 --> 2:03:27.280 cop shows. So this whole idea we have through the 2:03:27.440 --> 2:03:30.720 X Files, through pretty much every serial killer media whatever. 2:03:31.560 --> 2:03:33.919 The idea of the FBI is being like the smartest 2:03:34.000 --> 2:03:36.960 and the best, like that's put out by them. But 2:03:37.440 --> 2:03:41.440 it's really interesting to see they believe that, like they 2:03:41.480 --> 2:03:46.560 are beyond approach and like they have higher standards for like, 2:03:46.720 --> 2:03:48.240 you know, if you want to join the FBI, there 2:03:48.320 --> 2:03:51.360 is in theory this kind of moral moral check that 2:03:51.600 --> 2:03:57.400 you have to pass. BUTTBI agent flipping backwards and shooting 2:03:57.480 --> 2:03:59.520 somebody with his gun falls out of his pants at 2:03:59.560 --> 2:04:02.920 a club. Well, then you read about it and you're like, 2:04:03.040 --> 2:04:06.760 actually the experience, the lived experience, and we would it 2:04:06.880 --> 2:04:08.600 was it was so bizarre because I was like, I 2:04:08.640 --> 2:04:10.840 really want to understand what it's like to be an 2:04:10.880 --> 2:04:15.560 FBI wife, and um, let's find let's reach out the 2:04:15.680 --> 2:04:17.560 research I've done. Some of the stuff we pulled up. 2:04:17.600 --> 2:04:20.760 I was like, oh, it, it does sound pretty bad. 2:04:21.160 --> 2:04:24.200 Like there's a requirement if you're an FBI agent you 2:04:24.320 --> 2:04:27.880 have to move every three years or something. So if 2:04:27.960 --> 2:04:29.920 you're the wife to an FBI agent, you essentially move 2:04:29.960 --> 2:04:32.080 every three years, and so you never get a chance 2:04:32.200 --> 2:04:35.200 to build your own career or to make roots. And 2:04:35.280 --> 2:04:38.120 so you're generally and the wage is not great, which 2:04:38.200 --> 2:04:43.680 is why they're very vulnerable to uh corruption really. Um, 2:04:44.240 --> 2:04:47.920 so you're generally living. There's usually kind of areas where 2:04:47.960 --> 2:04:51.200 all the FBI families live, so it's this very insular 2:04:51.320 --> 2:04:57.080 world and you you start to see where some of 2:04:57.160 --> 2:05:00.440 these wives have come out and spoken about it. They're like, 2:05:00.720 --> 2:05:05.000 it's really shitty because husbands who believe themselves to be 2:05:05.120 --> 2:05:08.360 like you know, March of superheroes get to disappear for 2:05:08.440 --> 2:05:10.080 three days at a time and we can never ask 2:05:10.160 --> 2:05:11.920 where they are or what they're doing. And there's this 2:05:12.040 --> 2:05:13.680 kind of internal code which you see a lot of 2:05:13.760 --> 2:05:15.840 law enforcement right where they will cover for each other 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:20.840 and protect each other. Um. And you you suddenly start 2:05:21.240 --> 2:05:25.040 to see that like, ah, you know this, this is 2:05:25.800 --> 2:05:30.480 not like And in fact, I remember reading sort of 2:05:31.040 --> 2:05:33.640 the guy who inspired like Silenced the Lambs. The TV 2:05:33.720 --> 2:05:35.680 show mind Hunter was based on him in his book 2:05:36.400 --> 2:05:38.800 Us this guy who was one of the early kind 2:05:38.840 --> 2:05:43.880 of serial killer profiling people within the FBI. You read 2:05:43.960 --> 2:05:47.520 his book, It's a terrible book. When I heard that 2:05:47.600 --> 2:05:50.320 Fincher was adapting, I was like, wow, good luck. Um, 2:05:50.760 --> 2:05:54.560 but it's incredible the lack of self awareness he has. Um, 2:05:55.040 --> 2:05:58.360 this guy is so sexist and so bad. Every time 2:05:58.400 --> 2:06:01.400 he introduces a warm then it starts by from the 2:06:01.480 --> 2:06:05.440 legs up like he's describing it and um. At the 2:06:05.560 --> 2:06:07.400 very end of the book, he reveals that his wife 2:06:07.520 --> 2:06:09.480 leaves him, and he kind of writes as if this 2:06:09.600 --> 2:06:12.240 is a huge surprise, and yeah, he's calling us from 2:06:12.440 --> 2:06:14.760 chapter one and he has the best buddy. So like 2:06:14.880 --> 2:06:17.800 the guy who's who's the kind of number two in 2:06:17.960 --> 2:06:20.960 mind hunt on TV, there's like a real life version 2:06:21.000 --> 2:06:24.720 of him. And halfway through the book, his wife hires 2:06:24.960 --> 2:06:27.840 an assassin to kind of hitman to come in and 2:06:27.960 --> 2:06:30.760 kill him, and the guy just narrowly avoids it. And 2:06:31.120 --> 2:06:34.240 the guy writing the book is like, what an evil woman? 2:06:34.440 --> 2:06:36.920 Like my poor friend, and you're like, well, having a minute, 2:06:36.960 --> 2:06:39.680 what did your what was your friend like? Yeah, what 2:06:39.920 --> 2:06:42.600 was going on? Yeah, there's there's there's probably something going 2:06:42.640 --> 2:06:47.520 on there. So yeah it was Yeah that that sense 2:06:47.760 --> 2:06:52.720 that which I think for me, expanded beautifully to the 2:06:52.760 --> 2:06:56.040 bigger picture of like that character kind of believing that 2:06:56.200 --> 2:06:58.880 he's the good guy. Absolutely, you know, he's the sheriff 2:06:59.000 --> 2:07:01.520 in the Western he's come in and he's fixing problems 2:07:01.600 --> 2:07:06.280 and he's but and then he falls apart. Yeah, and 2:07:06.440 --> 2:07:11.040 and and his inability, Like it's such a brittle world view. Yeah, 2:07:11.600 --> 2:07:15.360 he is. He is very Once yeah, once he's exposed 2:07:15.400 --> 2:07:17.640 to thinking that the world is maybe different, it just 2:07:17.760 --> 2:07:22.640 totally breaks him. Yeah. His specific arc I think is 2:07:23.440 --> 2:07:26.480 extremely interesting. Um, but I don't want to spoil it 2:07:26.520 --> 2:07:29.240 because I think it's it's it's too it's too shocking. 2:07:29.320 --> 2:07:31.120 Once you get to the final piece of his story, 2:07:31.200 --> 2:07:34.560 you're like, oh wow, um, I think that was laid 2:07:34.560 --> 2:07:36.280 out in a really beautiful way. But it's it's it's 2:07:36.480 --> 2:07:38.320 it's not like shocking away, like oh this this like 2:07:38.400 --> 2:07:40.160 doesn't make sense. It's like, oh no, yeah, I can 2:07:40.200 --> 2:07:42.440 see that, I can see why he's doing this, but 2:07:42.600 --> 2:07:44.840 it's still it's like you kind of slowly watched this 2:07:44.960 --> 2:07:48.600 guy get broken down piece by piece. Um, you know, 2:07:48.600 --> 2:07:51.360 because he starts he's very much like the superhero FBI agent. 2:07:51.400 --> 2:07:54.160 He's like, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop these terrorists 2:07:54.280 --> 2:07:56.760 or whatever, and then he just like yeah, watching him 2:07:56.800 --> 2:07:58.840 progress throughout the story, and you can see like how 2:07:58.880 --> 2:08:01.720 pathetic he is. Sometimes there's a there's a great uh, 2:08:02.240 --> 2:08:05.760 one of the UK spy cops. Um, I forget his 2:08:05.920 --> 2:08:08.120 name if we're doing this three years ago and I've 2:08:08.120 --> 2:08:11.680 had all these names in my head, but he um. Uh. 2:08:11.920 --> 2:08:14.760 So he was assigned and he was he infiltrated this 2:08:14.840 --> 2:08:17.640 green group somewhere in the UK for a couple of years, 2:08:17.840 --> 2:08:23.520 had this relationship with this girl. Um was participating and facilitating. 2:08:24.440 --> 2:08:26.480 The one detail that I loved and try to make 2:08:26.480 --> 2:08:29.680 sure it was accurate, was all these cops would have 2:08:29.840 --> 2:08:32.480 a van or they would have like a big truck 2:08:33.000 --> 2:08:35.840 in the UK because they realized that, like in these 2:08:35.880 --> 2:08:39.680 smaller groups like being the transportation was like your superpower. 2:08:39.840 --> 2:08:41.600 So like if you are someone was like, oh, I'll 2:08:41.680 --> 2:08:43.600 drive everyone to the thing, I'll get his all that 2:08:43.720 --> 2:08:46.760 because I have this big van. Um. That was the 2:08:46.840 --> 2:08:49.360 easiest way to just kind of make yourself useful. Um. 2:08:49.720 --> 2:08:52.760 But this guy is doing all that. At some point, Um, 2:08:53.160 --> 2:08:57.360 they decided to pull him and they pull him out. 2:08:57.480 --> 2:08:59.920 He returns to his wife and his normal life back 2:09:00.000 --> 2:09:04.160 in London. Um. But he can't go back to his 2:09:04.200 --> 2:09:07.000 normal life, and so he starts and he's done all 2:09:07.080 --> 2:09:10.880 the stuff of disappearing, but he just starts getting up 2:09:10.960 --> 2:09:13.240 and driving and maybe he's in the north of England 2:09:13.240 --> 2:09:15.480 somewhere just just shows back up and he's like, oh, 2:09:15.480 --> 2:09:17.480 I'm back, guys, and they're like, oh, Ship, what happened. 2:09:17.480 --> 2:09:19.440 I thought you had to like disappear because people are 2:09:19.440 --> 2:09:21.560 after you. And he's like, no, it's all right, ah 2:09:22.480 --> 2:09:26.200 and just goes back to living as an activist. UM. 2:09:26.560 --> 2:09:30.360 And at some point one of his superiors notices that 2:09:30.600 --> 2:09:36.600 the mileage on his police paid vehicle is huge and 2:09:36.640 --> 2:09:39.200 they're like, why is this guy doing so much mileage 2:09:39.200 --> 2:09:41.520 in is because he's driving all the way back uh 2:09:41.720 --> 2:09:44.680 and and continuing to live this life and inhabit this 2:09:44.800 --> 2:09:48.760 character that he's set up. UM. And at some point 2:09:49.280 --> 2:09:52.280 I think he gets found out and it all goes 2:09:52.320 --> 2:09:55.040 horribly wrong because he no longer has like the fake 2:09:55.160 --> 2:09:58.080 idea and stuff that they gave him. But yeah, I 2:09:58.120 --> 2:10:01.720 mean that and like that stuff is interesting. But then 2:10:01.800 --> 2:10:06.320 he was always important to never be ugly sympathetic when 2:10:06.360 --> 2:10:12.560 you see the struggling there. There is certain points where 2:10:12.560 --> 2:10:14.880 you see the FBI agents struggling because of how like 2:10:15.200 --> 2:10:17.920 smug he is. You're like, yes, he's struggling, and you 2:10:18.040 --> 2:10:20.320 like get excited when he gets like when he gets 2:10:20.360 --> 2:10:23.200 like reprimanded or he you know, people are like mad 2:10:23.240 --> 2:10:25.160 at him for various reasons. And it is very interesting 2:10:25.200 --> 2:10:27.720 how you like how sympathies get pulled in certain directions, 2:10:27.720 --> 2:10:29.320 because like by the end of the game, you definitely 2:10:29.920 --> 2:10:32.640 have a much fuller perspective on who this guy is 2:10:32.920 --> 2:10:35.880 and how it's kind of psyche works because he is 2:10:36.080 --> 2:10:38.600 really in a lot of ways like kind of pathetic 2:10:38.760 --> 2:10:41.280 as like a person. Um and he like needs to 2:10:41.440 --> 2:10:44.800 like hype himself up for himself to like make himself 2:10:44.920 --> 2:10:47.240 feel like he's special. Then when that gets broken down, 2:10:47.320 --> 2:10:50.440 he just completely collapses. I guess one of the last 2:10:50.440 --> 2:10:53.560 things I want to talk about is like throughout all 2:10:53.600 --> 2:10:56.160 of your games, you have kind of a through line 2:10:56.160 --> 2:10:58.080 of like fairy tales. You kind of you bring in 2:10:58.240 --> 2:11:02.400 fairy tale concepts into all of these games. Um And, 2:11:02.600 --> 2:11:04.320 I like how a lot of your games are very 2:11:04.360 --> 2:11:06.120 open ended in some ways. I think that her story 2:11:06.200 --> 2:11:08.960 being much more open ended than than telling Lice in 2:11:09.040 --> 2:11:12.240 some ways. Um And, I really like that you kind 2:11:12.280 --> 2:11:15.080 of you can't like look up, like what is the 2:11:15.240 --> 2:11:16.760 ending of this game? It's like no, like you have 2:11:16.880 --> 2:11:18.840 to piece it together in your own brain like that, 2:11:19.000 --> 2:11:21.360 and whatever you think the story is, that's what it 2:11:21.520 --> 2:11:24.320 is for you. There's no like definitive ending, especially like 2:11:24.640 --> 2:11:27.800 especially for her story. Um and how this combines with 2:11:27.920 --> 2:11:30.160 fairy tales. I think it's really interesting way to like 2:11:30.240 --> 2:11:33.960 include like mythology into these more modern stories. What's kind 2:11:34.000 --> 2:11:37.080 of your pot process behind you know, kind of kind 2:11:37.120 --> 2:11:39.720 of including mythology and fairy tales into these more like 2:11:39.840 --> 2:11:43.160 modern stories of like you know, people interacting with like government, 2:11:43.240 --> 2:11:45.080 law enforcement, and then just you know, breaking down their 2:11:45.120 --> 2:11:49.200 own psyches under these high tensed situations. Yeah, I mean 2:11:49.200 --> 2:11:52.360 I think it. I think it came initially with her 2:11:52.440 --> 2:11:57.120 story of ye thinking about that the kind of meta 2:11:57.200 --> 2:12:00.760 storytelling nous of these things, right, the extent to which 2:12:00.760 --> 2:12:03.800 their experiments and like how we tell stories. Um And 2:12:04.120 --> 2:12:06.920 but a lot of times, like the myths and the 2:12:07.680 --> 2:12:11.000 kind of classic stories that people go to those right 2:12:11.200 --> 2:12:16.800 to try and understand the bigger questions or certainly like um, 2:12:17.600 --> 2:12:22.680 I guess partly came out of Ah, the start of 2:12:22.760 --> 2:12:25.120 first story, I had like two youngest kids, and you're 2:12:25.120 --> 2:12:27.360 so you're reading them all the classic stories, and you 2:12:27.440 --> 2:12:30.200 realize the extent to which these are just encoding our 2:12:30.320 --> 2:12:34.120 society's values, right, I had this incredible book that was 2:12:35.240 --> 2:12:38.760 that my parents got for me, and I tracked down 2:12:38.800 --> 2:12:40.640 and made sure we still had when I had my kids. 2:12:40.720 --> 2:12:43.400 That was called It was like folk tales of the 2:12:43.440 --> 2:12:48.240 people's of the Soviet Republic from like the early eighties, 2:12:48.280 --> 2:12:50.160 and it was collected like a lot of people. I 2:12:50.200 --> 2:12:53.919 think it was Ukrainian folk tales, and they were amazing 2:12:54.000 --> 2:12:58.080 because they were so dark. Like the message of each 2:12:58.120 --> 2:13:01.640 of these stories was trust no, the rich will always win. 2:13:01.920 --> 2:13:05.040 You will end up dead and unhappy, right, And each 2:13:05.120 --> 2:13:09.440 story would start with the poor peasant, his brother gets rich, 2:13:09.920 --> 2:13:13.400 he asks for help. The brother like is horrible. Like 2:13:13.520 --> 2:13:16.560 this is one story where's this brother who's like, oh, 2:13:16.640 --> 2:13:20.160 if you want some grain because you're starving, and then 2:13:20.240 --> 2:13:22.320 gouge out your own eye and I'll give you some grain. 2:13:22.360 --> 2:13:23.880 And then it comes back from more grain later and 2:13:23.880 --> 2:13:26.040 he's like, guge out your other eye. Now, chop off 2:13:26.080 --> 2:13:28.920 your hand. And it's like they're so dark, and I'm like, 2:13:29.160 --> 2:13:33.760 but this is reflecting what it was like to live 2:13:34.240 --> 2:13:36.640 in that world and grew up and you're preparing people 2:13:36.920 --> 2:13:40.960 for the realities. So um, you know. I think that 2:13:41.360 --> 2:13:44.360 to me was really interesting. In and her story tells 2:13:44.400 --> 2:13:46.760 this story that kind of to some extent grows out 2:13:46.800 --> 2:13:49.640 of this childhood and then were telling lies. Definitely, it 2:13:49.760 --> 2:13:56.480 was part of this idea of of yeah, how Logan's 2:13:56.520 --> 2:14:00.880 character David sees the world and lates to his part 2:14:00.960 --> 2:14:03.400 in it, and like his utter inability to realize that 2:14:03.480 --> 2:14:05.640 he's the bad guy in the story, right, and he 2:14:05.720 --> 2:14:09.000 thinks he's the good guy. And and that was like, 2:14:09.120 --> 2:14:12.480 that was partly the key to breaking his character. And 2:14:12.560 --> 2:14:14.440 it was his daughter. So he has this character who's 2:14:14.760 --> 2:14:18.440 the six seven year old daughter and that's like, you know, 2:14:18.560 --> 2:14:21.880 he lets down and does horrible things to a whole 2:14:21.960 --> 2:14:25.400 bunch of people. Um, but the thing he's not going 2:14:25.440 --> 2:14:27.480 to be able to get over is knowing that he's 2:14:27.560 --> 2:14:29.720 laid his daughter down, right, knowing that at some point 2:14:29.840 --> 2:14:33.440 she will grow up and be an adult woman who 2:14:33.600 --> 2:14:36.880 if she learns about what her father has done, we'll 2:14:37.160 --> 2:14:40.480 we'll think less of him and you know, we'll realize 2:14:40.520 --> 2:14:42.600 that he's the bad guy in the fairy tale whatever. 2:14:42.760 --> 2:14:46.520 So um, that was like just interesting to me to 2:14:46.840 --> 2:14:49.160 set him in that moment and have him reading those 2:14:49.200 --> 2:14:52.520 stories and see see his relationship with his daughter. Um, 2:14:53.200 --> 2:14:57.880 And yeah, I think that that Yeah, he end up 2:14:57.920 --> 2:15:00.160 just relating those things back to what are the these 2:15:00.840 --> 2:15:03.560 kind of base values, and so much of those folk 2:15:03.560 --> 2:15:05.480 tales is preparing you for the fact that people are 2:15:05.520 --> 2:15:07.480 going to lie to you and trick you and you 2:15:07.560 --> 2:15:11.280 know all those kind of aspects. Yeah, a lot of 2:15:11.360 --> 2:15:15.440 them do deal with, like, you know, failures of trusting 2:15:15.520 --> 2:15:18.720 people and you know, getting getting let down and being misled. 2:15:18.720 --> 2:15:20.040 A lot a lot of those do kind of follow 2:15:20.080 --> 2:15:24.400 on these same same kind of rough templates. UM. Let's see, 2:15:24.520 --> 2:15:26.240 is there anything you're working on now that you wanna 2:15:27.080 --> 2:15:29.800 that you wanna plug um, and of course you know 2:15:29.880 --> 2:15:32.680 people should pick up Telling Lies her story. UM. I 2:15:32.760 --> 2:15:34.720 have them on Steam. I think they are best suited 2:15:34.760 --> 2:15:37.200 to be playing on PC, but you can get them 2:15:37.240 --> 2:15:40.360 on console, we can get them on iOS. But in 2:15:40.480 --> 2:15:45.680 any anything anything upcoming. Yeah, we're working on currently. This 2:15:46.240 --> 2:15:52.240 project is called Immortality, UM, which is very ambitious. Uh. 2:15:52.600 --> 2:15:55.040 It will be out next year. It deals with the 2:15:55.080 --> 2:15:58.920 story of an actress who only ever made three movies 2:15:59.520 --> 2:16:02.839 the Ladder Half the twentieth century UM, and then disappeared. 2:16:03.400 --> 2:16:08.000 And we have recovered footage from these three movies. UM. 2:16:08.800 --> 2:16:13.640 It's been interesting because we're telling lies like I've always 2:16:13.680 --> 2:16:16.880 been someone that when I think about the kinds of 2:16:16.960 --> 2:16:18.840 stories I want to tell, I've always thought that I'm 2:16:18.840 --> 2:16:21.720 not a capital P politics person, right, I tend to 2:16:21.760 --> 2:16:24.160 be interested in how people relate to each other and 2:16:24.280 --> 2:16:28.560 some of the kind of smaller politics. Um And once 2:16:28.640 --> 2:16:30.440 I got to telling lies, it was like, oh, actually, 2:16:31.520 --> 2:16:35.360 like there is some capital P politics tied to all this, 2:16:36.120 --> 2:16:38.320 and so dug into that was like, well, so I 2:16:38.400 --> 2:16:40.440 want to do right by this, right, So we did 2:16:40.520 --> 2:16:42.440 involve speaking to lots of people, did involve bringing in 2:16:42.480 --> 2:16:44.880 all the research and everything. Um So, coming away from 2:16:44.920 --> 2:16:48.560 telling lies, and as I mean, it was making the 2:16:48.600 --> 2:16:54.520 game was insane because it was during Trump Trump happens, 2:16:55.240 --> 2:16:57.640 and I remember going into it being like, we're making 2:16:57.720 --> 2:17:01.840 this story about the FBI being bad. That's a pretty 2:17:01.879 --> 2:17:05.240 reasonable endpoint. And then once we hit Trump, you had 2:17:05.280 --> 2:17:07.320 all that stuff of like the good FBI agents and 2:17:07.440 --> 2:17:10.240 theory or the FBI might be the people that bring 2:17:10.320 --> 2:17:13.960 Trump down, and suddenly they it was leaning into the 2:17:14.080 --> 2:17:15.760 myth of the FBI and I was looked down it 2:17:16.440 --> 2:17:20.360 and just everything getting worse, and it was like, oh, 2:17:20.480 --> 2:17:23.880 this is like so intense to be making something and 2:17:23.920 --> 2:17:26.720 speaking to some of these issues whilst this is all happening, 2:17:27.240 --> 2:17:29.360 um so finishing that, I was like, well, okay, for 2:17:29.480 --> 2:17:34.640 the next project, we are definitely going away from talking 2:17:34.680 --> 2:17:38.320 about real life issues and capital p politics. And then 2:17:38.400 --> 2:17:42.520 just accidentally it's become because we're talking about an actress 2:17:42.560 --> 2:17:46.800 in the twentieth century and what it means to make 2:17:46.879 --> 2:17:53.120 movies and ah, digging into that suddenly becomes about a 2:17:53.200 --> 2:17:58.040 whole other bunch of systemic issues. So not not managed 2:17:58.080 --> 2:18:00.680 to avoid the politics again, but it's I think a 2:18:00.800 --> 2:18:03.280 really really interesting protection. I think I think once you 2:18:03.400 --> 2:18:06.120 crack that egg open of realizing that politics are kind 2:18:06.160 --> 2:18:09.520 of intrinsic to every story we tell, it's hard to hand. 2:18:09.560 --> 2:18:11.000 It's hard to kind of put that back in the 2:18:11.080 --> 2:18:13.560 box because once you realize you can use politics in 2:18:13.640 --> 2:18:16.680 a very interesting and complex storytelling way that still doesn't 2:18:16.680 --> 2:18:19.640 alienate a lot of audiences, it's like, oh, yeah, this 2:18:19.800 --> 2:18:22.480 is just using another way to interact with the world. 2:18:22.600 --> 2:18:25.119 I think that was that was one of the things 2:18:25.200 --> 2:18:28.400 that was slightly disappointing. I guess we're telling lies was 2:18:28.680 --> 2:18:30.120 like we we're working on it. I'm like, we want 2:18:30.160 --> 2:18:32.000 to make sure we get these things right, because like 2:18:32.160 --> 2:18:34.920 these are very important issues, and there are some nuances 2:18:35.240 --> 2:18:38.279 and so we you know, we don't want to accidentally 2:18:38.320 --> 2:18:40.520 say something that is incorrect or we don't want to 2:18:40.680 --> 2:18:43.800 give people the impression that we're you know, yeah, yeah, 2:18:43.879 --> 2:18:47.640 yeah wrong. Um. So I was expecting some level of 2:18:47.720 --> 2:18:51.240 scrutiny in terms of discussing the games themes and everything. 2:18:51.480 --> 2:18:54.080 Um and I guess like the video games world is 2:18:54.080 --> 2:18:57.760 still not quite ready for that. Like they're quite happy 2:18:57.840 --> 2:18:59.920 to talk about the game mechanics and how this thing, 2:19:00.040 --> 2:19:02.800 what works since big picture or emotional responses, but no 2:19:02.920 --> 2:19:06.440 one's willing to kind of dig deeper. And we had 2:19:06.520 --> 2:19:09.520 like as the game was coming out and continues to be, 2:19:09.640 --> 2:19:12.480 you have the bigger name developers being like, there's no 2:19:12.600 --> 2:19:16.960 politics in our video games. As they're like invading to 2:19:17.040 --> 2:19:20.120 make a game about you know, you know, being a 2:19:20.720 --> 2:19:23.400 black Ops unit taking down communist countries. We're not gonna 2:19:23.440 --> 2:19:28.800 about politics. We're gonna yeah that constantly, constantly just saying 2:19:29.040 --> 2:19:31.520 it's it's possible, and they'll always say we we both 2:19:31.560 --> 2:19:33.680 sides it right, Well, we'll tell both sides and let 2:19:33.720 --> 2:19:36.240 people make the decision. And something that I was very 2:19:36.720 --> 2:19:40.040 adamant was very im porn to me on telling lies 2:19:40.120 --> 2:19:44.360 was like, if we're making this game, it is not. 2:19:45.280 --> 2:19:47.720 The point of the game is not to give you 2:19:48.080 --> 2:19:53.680 a mush of information and have you decide the moral yeah, 2:19:54.640 --> 2:19:57.480 good or bad? Something like we are going into this 2:19:58.959 --> 2:20:01.360 with the assumption that we and the audience or most 2:20:01.400 --> 2:20:05.680 of the audience believe that people doing these things are wrong, 2:20:06.200 --> 2:20:08.320 and then we're just And then I'm interested in what 2:20:08.440 --> 2:20:10.520 does it due to the people, What what is it 2:20:10.680 --> 2:20:12.720 like to be in this world? What are the consequences 2:20:12.720 --> 2:20:16.000 of ramifications? How does one exist and continue to live 2:20:16.040 --> 2:20:19.080 a life after having been involved in these things? So, 2:20:19.200 --> 2:20:23.400 for me, a political game is it can't be the 2:20:23.400 --> 2:20:27.000 political story in any media. It can't be going back 2:20:27.040 --> 2:20:29.320 to first principles pretending we're in debate club, because I 2:20:29.440 --> 2:20:32.520 just I think that's just that's lies the audience. I 2:20:32.600 --> 2:20:36.200 think you can say a political story is one which 2:20:36.440 --> 2:20:41.000 embraces and acknowledges the reality of the various power struggles 2:20:41.080 --> 2:20:43.840 and inequalities that we have and then has something to 2:20:43.879 --> 2:20:47.119 say about or has a particular angle it wants to interrogate, 2:20:47.320 --> 2:20:49.879 or something that wants to shed light on. But it's 2:20:50.000 --> 2:20:53.040 very childish, and I think we're definitely struggling with this 2:20:53.160 --> 2:20:56.720 in video games to be like, oh, if it's about politics, 2:20:56.800 --> 2:20:59.200 then it should be a big question and we should 2:20:59.200 --> 2:21:02.359 assume no one and it's like, yeah, this is completely 2:21:02.360 --> 2:21:05.040 bullshit and and it kind of it can lead to 2:21:05.160 --> 2:21:08.160 some problematic ways, which is why you see a lot 2:21:08.240 --> 2:21:13.160 of you know, game footage in actual like terrorist propaganda, 2:21:13.320 --> 2:21:14.960 like with like like it was like not sayings and 2:21:14.959 --> 2:21:17.359 white supremacist stuff. They use a lot of game footage 2:21:17.720 --> 2:21:20.560 in their propaganda videos when especially when it's like both 2:21:20.640 --> 2:21:23.600 sides of these issues. Yeah, it's a I have I 2:21:23.600 --> 2:21:26.600 have a particular interest in the intersection between like politics, extremism, 2:21:26.680 --> 2:21:29.440 and gaming because the gaming is very important to our 2:21:29.520 --> 2:21:33.960 modern kind of extremist ecosystem um, particularly around like four 2:21:34.080 --> 2:21:35.720 Chan and like you know, like mass shooting is all 2:21:35.760 --> 2:21:38.080 of these things play into game culture. Not not saying 2:21:38.120 --> 2:21:40.800 games cause these events to happen, because they don't, but 2:21:40.959 --> 2:21:44.680 like the way they interact with these people is actually interesting. 2:21:44.720 --> 2:21:46.080 You know. This is very different from like the way 2:21:46.120 --> 2:21:48.000 like this Senate is like, oh, games are causing mass 2:21:48.000 --> 2:21:49.760 shooting because they're not. Yea, I think it's it's it's 2:21:49.800 --> 2:21:53.160 it's it's it's a completely separate thing. It's it's there 2:21:53.240 --> 2:21:57.360 is there is a Fox News kind of hysteria around gaming. 2:21:57.560 --> 2:22:00.760 But at the same time, like and and really you know, 2:22:01.000 --> 2:22:03.200 one way I pitched her story when I was telling 2:22:03.240 --> 2:22:04.680 people why it was interesting us like this is a 2:22:04.760 --> 2:22:09.200 game about listening. I was like, that's cool because you know, 2:22:09.760 --> 2:22:12.120 whatever you think about the larger politics of it, or 2:22:12.680 --> 2:22:15.200 the question of whether video games themselves are inherently harmful 2:22:15.280 --> 2:22:19.080 or anything, like, the fact that's still the stories we 2:22:19.120 --> 2:22:20.760 tell are about someone with a gun in their hand 2:22:20.879 --> 2:22:24.600 or assort in their hand, and the power dynamics and 2:22:24.680 --> 2:22:28.440 the story the types of stories and the types of protagonists, like, 2:22:28.600 --> 2:22:30.800 it's screwed up. And I think to the same extent 2:22:30.920 --> 2:22:34.920 that the fact that, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe is 2:22:34.959 --> 2:22:38.400 about a bunch of glorified cops going around saying the 2:22:38.480 --> 2:22:44.320 world like, you know, if you continue to reinforce these things, yeahbously, 2:22:44.760 --> 2:22:46.720 all of the art we make are saying certain things 2:22:46.800 --> 2:22:49.480 about the world, and we're reinforcing a certain narrative over 2:22:49.560 --> 2:22:52.120 and over again and not really thinking critically about it. Yeah, 2:22:52.840 --> 2:22:56.080 that's a problem with making art. I mean, I'm not 2:22:56.200 --> 2:22:57.920 trying to come off as being anti gamer. I would 2:22:57.920 --> 2:22:59.480 play a lot of games. I really like gaming. I 2:22:59.600 --> 2:23:03.160 just think some some companies need to figure out why 2:23:04.040 --> 2:23:08.560 why certain games are used in mass shooting manifestoes in 2:23:08.600 --> 2:23:11.840 certain games aren't um particularly around like politics like this 2:23:11.879 --> 2:23:14.600 is particularly particularly talking about like white supremacy and how 2:23:14.800 --> 2:23:17.760 certain games kind of playing too certain things. Because even 2:23:17.800 --> 2:23:19.280 even a game like Wolf and Stein, which I think 2:23:19.280 --> 2:23:22.000 handles this topic very well, still will you know, get 2:23:22.080 --> 2:23:24.800 brought up in certain you know, propaganda videos because they 2:23:24.840 --> 2:23:27.200 do have cool shots of Nazis walking around, right, That's 2:23:27.280 --> 2:23:30.039 the kind of the problem with some of these things. Um. 2:23:30.600 --> 2:23:32.440 And you know, if they weren't killing if Nazis weren't 2:23:32.520 --> 2:23:34.000 killing people as much as wouldn't be as much of 2:23:34.000 --> 2:23:36.520 a problem. But because that's still a thing, that's still 2:23:36.520 --> 2:23:39.400 a thing that needs to get talked about. Anyway, this 2:23:39.560 --> 2:23:42.280 this this took a very sad sad turned towards the 2:23:42.480 --> 2:23:45.920 end of anyway. Yeah, I will, I will. I will 2:23:46.040 --> 2:23:50.640 just strongly recommend playing her story playing telling lies. I 2:23:50.800 --> 2:23:57.000 think these games, you know, interrogate our our predispositions about 2:23:57.240 --> 2:24:01.560 about kind of police detective were, um, and you just 2:24:01.600 --> 2:24:02.760 get to learn a lot. You get to learn a 2:24:02.800 --> 2:24:04.920 lot about like people on characters because like a lot 2:24:04.959 --> 2:24:06.360 of these games, you know where the setup is like, oh, 2:24:06.480 --> 2:24:09.440 solve this crime or mystery, but then by the end 2:24:09.520 --> 2:24:11.520 you're solving a very different mystery and you're kind of 2:24:11.560 --> 2:24:13.880 solving what makes the person tick. And it's very You've 2:24:14.320 --> 2:24:16.120 I really like the art that you have in your games. 2:24:16.440 --> 2:24:19.240 They've brought me a lot of happiness. So thank you. 2:24:19.320 --> 2:24:21.520 Thank you for that, and thank you for talking with 2:24:21.600 --> 2:24:26.560 all of us, um about your work. I'm enjoying it. 2:24:26.640 --> 2:24:28.920 Thank you, thank you for having me. And uh yeah, 2:24:29.000 --> 2:24:30.960 like I say, I was, I was hoping to have 2:24:32.400 --> 2:24:36.120 hundreds more conversations about what Telling Lies was about and 2:24:36.440 --> 2:24:39.200 about these issues when it came out. But it's uh, 2:24:40.360 --> 2:24:44.119 you know that, it's I mean, it's hot just general 2:24:44.200 --> 2:24:46.280 media landscape now, like you put something out there and 2:24:46.400 --> 2:24:49.040 it comes out and people consume it, Yeah, move on, 2:24:49.240 --> 2:24:53.920 Like you don't have that. It's bad of like discussion 2:24:54.240 --> 2:24:56.680 that that. I don't know, it feels like it used 2:24:56.720 --> 2:24:58.440 to used to be a thing. Yeah, I think it 2:24:58.440 --> 2:25:00.600 definitely did. It used to be a thing. And definitely 2:25:00.680 --> 2:25:05.160 your games have had an influence on media in certain ways, 2:25:05.200 --> 2:25:06.960 and I know there's been like a few other like 2:25:07.080 --> 2:25:09.200 projects that like Netflix is doing that is kind of 2:25:09.320 --> 2:25:14.880 taking your concept but not really doing it correctly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 2:25:14.879 --> 2:25:17.240 there's definitely been a lot. Yeah. People always send me them. 2:25:17.280 --> 2:25:19.920 They're like, oh, this sounds a lot like story this thing, 2:25:19.959 --> 2:25:24.520 and it's like, oh, but it's it's build non linear. Yeah, exactly. 2:25:26.000 --> 2:25:28.840 You let people. Yeah, usually it's like watch there are 2:25:28.879 --> 2:25:30.920 eight episodes. You can watch them in any order, which 2:25:31.040 --> 2:25:33.600 isn't how her story works. No, Yeah, like, yeah, this 2:25:33.680 --> 2:25:35.320 is there's a Yeah, there's a whole different thing going on, 2:25:35.640 --> 2:25:39.040 but no, I mean it's it's interesting times for for 2:25:39.160 --> 2:25:42.720 that sort of stuff. But anyway, play these games on 2:25:42.840 --> 2:25:45.960 Steam and that that doesn't for today. You can follow 2:25:46.000 --> 2:25:48.720 the show on Twitter and Instagram at Happening here, pod 2:25:48.840 --> 2:25:51.280 and cool Zone Media. Do you have Do you have 2:25:51.400 --> 2:25:53.280 social media that you would like to plug or would 2:25:53.280 --> 2:25:58.200 your people if people are on Twitter, that's where I 2:25:58.280 --> 2:26:02.000 tend to be. Despite it's despite yeah, I know, I 2:26:02.040 --> 2:26:06.760 am I am Mr Sambo Twitter M I will say 2:26:06.840 --> 2:26:09.120 I I actually I actually do like your Twitter account. 2:26:09.320 --> 2:26:11.640 You do? You do post some fun stuff every once 2:26:11.640 --> 2:26:16.200 in a while. That's that's kind of a weird contescen 2:26:16.240 --> 2:26:19.120 think we think to say of anyway. Bye for Puddy 2:26:23.320 --> 2:26:26.440 Raffie is the voice of some of the happiest songs 2:26:26.520 --> 2:26:32.199 of our generation. Baby So who is the man behind 2:26:32.320 --> 2:26:37.200 Baby Bluga? Every human being wants to feel respected. When 2:26:37.280 --> 2:26:41.640 we start with, all good things can grow from there. 2:26:41.879 --> 2:26:45.520 I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, New Dad and host of Finding Raffie, 2:26:45.680 --> 2:26:48.879 a new podcast from my Heart Radio and Fatherly Listen 2:26:48.959 --> 2:26:51.560 every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app or wherever 2:26:51.680 --> 2:26:55.640 you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Robert sex Reese, host 2:26:55.720 --> 2:26:58.760 of The Doctor Sex Reese Show, and every episode I 2:26:58.959 --> 2:27:02.440 listened to people about their sex and intimacy issues, and yes, 2:27:03.280 --> 2:27:06.119 I despise every minute of it. And she she made 2:27:06.200 --> 2:27:09.280 mistakes too, I mean, did she kill everyone at her wedding? 2:27:09.720 --> 2:27:12.480 But hell is real. We're all trapped here and there's 2:27:12.560 --> 2:27:15.200 nothing any of us can do about it. So join me, 2:27:15.400 --> 2:27:18.760 won't you? Listen to The Doctor Sex Ratio every Tuesday 2:27:18.879 --> 2:27:21.800 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever 2:27:21.920 --> 2:27:26.039 you get your podcast. Here's to the great American settlers. 2:27:26.800 --> 2:27:30.840 The millions of you have settled for unsatisfying jobs because 2:27:30.920 --> 2:27:34.000 they pay the bills, and you just kind of fell 2:27:34.080 --> 2:27:38.520 into it. And you know it's like totally fine, just 2:27:38.720 --> 2:27:42.320 another few decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself. 2:27:43.080 --> 2:27:46.160 Of course, there is something else you could do, if 2:27:46.200 --> 2:27:49.560 you've got something to say. You could, I don't know, 2:27:49.920 --> 2:27:54.039 start up podcast with spreaker from my Heart and unleash 2:27:54.120 --> 2:27:58.200 your creative freedom and spend all day researching and talking 2:27:58.240 --> 2:28:02.080 about stuff you love and maybe even earn enough money 2:28:02.200 --> 2:28:05.120 to one day to own your irritating boss. As you 2:28:05.320 --> 2:28:10.480 quit and walk off into the sunset. Hey, I'm no settler, 2:28:11.160 --> 2:28:17.320 I'm an explorer speaker dot com. That's spr e a 2:28:17.640 --> 2:28:28.360 k E R hustle on over today. That's gonna that's 2:28:28.400 --> 2:28:31.200 gonna be way too jarring to open an episode where 2:28:31.520 --> 2:28:34.240 well we already did it, so just keep moving. Yeah 2:28:34.360 --> 2:28:37.200 uh huh. Um, the episode is actually going to start 2:28:37.280 --> 2:28:40.200 with Garrison saying that's way too jarring to open an 2:28:40.240 --> 2:28:42.680 episode with, and the listeners won't know that is much. 2:28:43.000 --> 2:28:47.400 That is a much easier opening. Um, alright, so we're 2:28:47.440 --> 2:28:49.600 doing I'm gonna be I'm gonna be reading a thing 2:28:49.640 --> 2:28:51.640 today and then we're gonna talk about the thing that 2:28:51.720 --> 2:28:55.000 we're reading. Um and and and who and who are you? 2:28:55.160 --> 2:28:58.400 And who is here? Oh yeah, this is a happen here. 2:28:58.760 --> 2:29:01.240 This is it could happen here. I'm I'm Garrison. I 2:29:01.320 --> 2:29:07.160 am our resident Canadian. Yeah, that's Anderson. That's Anderson the 2:29:07.200 --> 2:29:08.760 dog in here. We have we had to hire a 2:29:08.840 --> 2:29:16.680 Canadian for a diversity quota. You do not anyway. We 2:29:16.800 --> 2:29:20.760 have Chris here, Robert Evans as usual, um, and Sophie. 2:29:21.440 --> 2:29:24.360 So we're gonna talk about We're gonna talk a little 2:29:24.360 --> 2:29:29.119 bit about about Canada today. So in the like descripted 2:29:29.200 --> 2:29:31.959 what if scenarios first positive in the original it could 2:29:31.959 --> 2:29:34.280 happen here. Um. It detailed what it might be like 2:29:34.440 --> 2:29:37.880 to live in the United States during a modern civil conflict. 2:29:38.240 --> 2:29:40.000 And like one of the stories that we kind of 2:29:40.080 --> 2:29:42.760 tell ourselves as a culture is about, you know, crossing 2:29:42.840 --> 2:29:45.400 up into the safe haven of Canada whatever stuff breaks 2:29:45.440 --> 2:29:49.200 out in the States. Um, whether that be like an 2:29:49.280 --> 2:29:52.040 escape from just the hell that's us politics, um, or 2:29:52.200 --> 2:29:54.880 you know, going up into the cold northern terrain better 2:29:54.879 --> 2:29:57.600 equipped to deal with climate change. Canada is kind of 2:29:57.720 --> 2:30:00.160 just viewed as a bast gene of like little of 2:30:00.320 --> 2:30:03.320 liberal democracy in North America. UM. You know, I've I've 2:30:03.400 --> 2:30:05.800 made jokes in the past about using my Canadian passport 2:30:05.840 --> 2:30:08.320 to escape up into the forest of Alberta when things 2:30:08.400 --> 2:30:10.840 get too dicey here in the States. But this like 2:30:11.040 --> 2:30:15.040 weird utopian view of Canada is not just wrong about 2:30:15.120 --> 2:30:19.600 Canada's current political state, but also assumes that a Canada 2:30:19.720 --> 2:30:21.840 is like immune to the political shifts that the States 2:30:21.879 --> 2:30:24.879 have gone through the past few years, which is it's 2:30:25.160 --> 2:30:31.160 it's very obviously not um so like Canada internationally is, 2:30:31.280 --> 2:30:33.160 and specifically in the States, it's it's used as like, 2:30:33.240 --> 2:30:36.080 you know, Canada's it's used it's like America's little brother, 2:30:36.520 --> 2:30:39.760 but it's you know, it's much more you know, democratic, 2:30:39.840 --> 2:30:41.720 it's much more liberal. It's like it's like this kind 2:30:41.760 --> 2:30:45.520 of ideal scenario for like what the States could be. 2:30:46.160 --> 2:30:48.840 And like Canadians have a weird view of the States 2:30:48.879 --> 2:30:52.440 as well. Like Canadians, they're both like the like they're 2:30:52.520 --> 2:30:54.920 kind of obsessed. Like a lot of Canadians think no 2:30:55.040 --> 2:30:57.680 more about US politics than that they know about Canadian politics. 2:30:58.200 --> 2:31:02.000 Um but almost in like a way that we watch sports. 2:31:02.200 --> 2:31:04.040 It's it's like it's like this thing that we like 2:31:04.560 --> 2:31:06.800 watch as entertainment, like like some kind of like sick 2:31:06.879 --> 2:31:09.320 reality show. That's how I think a lot of Canadians 2:31:09.360 --> 2:31:13.840 really view US politics, um, because it's just so wacky 2:31:14.000 --> 2:31:17.640 compared to the kind of more like civil parliamentary system 2:31:17.680 --> 2:31:20.200 that we have in Canada. US politics just looks very, 2:31:20.400 --> 2:31:23.640 very bizarre, and there's always this notion it's like, no 2:31:23.760 --> 2:31:26.200 matter how bad things can get in Canada, at least 2:31:26.200 --> 2:31:28.320 we're not the States. At least at least we're not 2:31:28.600 --> 2:31:30.720 at least we're not the US. And that is kind 2:31:30.720 --> 2:31:32.920 of a lot of a lot of how a lot 2:31:32.959 --> 2:31:36.560 of stuff can get really get can just like surviving 2:31:36.640 --> 2:31:41.680 Canada longer, because it's just they view it like, at least, 2:31:42.080 --> 2:31:44.120 at least we're not as bad as the other people. 2:31:45.320 --> 2:31:46.800 So that's how, you know, it gives them kind of 2:31:46.879 --> 2:31:49.760 some kind of sense of security. But in terms of 2:31:49.840 --> 2:31:51.360 like in terms of Canada as a country, you know, 2:31:51.440 --> 2:31:53.880 we we we've said that Canada as a country is 2:31:53.920 --> 2:31:56.720 basically just you know, a few mining companies in a 2:31:56.760 --> 2:31:59.360 trench coat and the trench coat is healthcare, um. And 2:31:59.440 --> 2:32:02.200 that's that's really all they are is as as as 2:32:02.240 --> 2:32:05.560 a country. UM. But today we're gonna be talking about 2:32:06.160 --> 2:32:11.560 kind of Canada's slide towards farther right wing politics. Um. 2:32:11.959 --> 2:32:15.080 Both you know, historically and then more recently, because a 2:32:15.160 --> 2:32:17.200 lot of what we've seen in the States has happened 2:32:17.240 --> 2:32:20.320 kind of in its own weird Canadian way around the 2:32:20.440 --> 2:32:23.720 same time. UM. But before we really before we really 2:32:23.720 --> 2:32:26.119 get started, I think to be remiss not to mention 2:32:26.240 --> 2:32:28.960 how the Canadian government has historically treated Indigenous and First 2:32:29.040 --> 2:32:32.879 Nations people UM living on that land. Of course, it's 2:32:32.920 --> 2:32:34.720 like not only just hundreds of years ago, but a 2:32:34.800 --> 2:32:37.120 lot more recently as well. Just in the past year, 2:32:37.200 --> 2:32:40.000 there have been thousands and thousands of like hidden graves 2:32:40.080 --> 2:32:42.800 found across the provinces at the sites of these residential 2:32:42.840 --> 2:32:45.320 schools UM. And the process of looking for these on 2:32:45.440 --> 2:32:49.400 Martin graves has like just just started. UM. The Canadian 2:32:49.440 --> 2:32:52.920 Historical Association published a letter this past Canada Day Canada 2:32:53.000 --> 2:32:56.400 Day is like Independence Day but for Canada, UM, saying 2:32:56.480 --> 2:32:59.400 that it was abundantly clear that Canada is guilty of 2:32:59.760 --> 2:33:02.280 is guilty of genocide. UM. I know there's there's a 2:33:02.320 --> 2:33:05.200 few episodes behind the Bastards, UM, and I think even 2:33:05.240 --> 2:33:08.320 worse deer that that talk about residential schools UM and 2:33:08.400 --> 2:33:11.960 and the genocide of indigenousop Canada. So you can you 2:33:12.000 --> 2:33:14.160 can check those out and I wrote this episode to 2:33:14.240 --> 2:33:17.879 be more focused on Canada's political shifts the past five years. 2:33:18.000 --> 2:33:20.320 But since we're talking to be talking about Canadian fascism, 2:33:20.560 --> 2:33:22.640 I thought it would be irresponsible to not mention this 2:33:22.879 --> 2:33:27.240 upfront as like a thing responsible and very responsible. So 2:33:27.680 --> 2:33:30.400 I'm gonna try to take us through aspects of Canadians 2:33:30.920 --> 2:33:34.400 of Canada's politics chronologically. Um, you guys can button and 2:33:34.520 --> 2:33:37.760 kind of ask questions and clarifications about stuff. Um, But 2:33:37.959 --> 2:33:39.760 the first thing that we're gonna start with is actually 2:33:39.800 --> 2:33:41.640 going to be on the First Nations the side of things, 2:33:41.760 --> 2:33:44.000 and that that's kind of how that that's what mostly 2:33:44.040 --> 2:33:46.920 Indigenous people are called in Canada's First Nations. Um, even 2:33:46.959 --> 2:33:49.240 you know the Indigenous people up in Canada, most amuse 2:33:49.320 --> 2:33:50.840 that term. So that's the term I'll be using for 2:33:50.959 --> 2:33:52.520 some some of this stuff, just because that's the one 2:33:52.560 --> 2:33:59.200 that's used up there. Um. So the the residential School's 2:33:59.200 --> 2:34:01.680 program is where gonna briefly mentioned a few things about it, 2:34:01.720 --> 2:34:03.560 just because of how it kind of relates to some 2:34:03.680 --> 2:34:05.040 of the stuff that we're gonna be talking with for 2:34:05.080 --> 2:34:08.840 the rest of the episode. Um yeah, I'm gonna I'm 2:34:08.840 --> 2:34:12.200 gonna read someone I'm gonna read some words by by 2:34:12.480 --> 2:34:15.640 Duncan Campbell Scott. Who was the department, Who was who 2:34:15.680 --> 2:34:18.880 was the Deputy Superintendent of Indian Affairs. This was like 2:34:19.160 --> 2:34:22.400 a rank in the Canadian government. UM. He served as 2:34:22.480 --> 2:34:26.720 the Deputy Superintendent from nineteen thirteen to nineteen thirty two. UM. 2:34:26.800 --> 2:34:29.279 And he's arguably like the main architect of the residential 2:34:29.320 --> 2:34:32.240 schools program. UM he was. He was also good friends 2:34:33.000 --> 2:34:37.000 with the first Prime Minister of Canada, John John John McDonald. 2:34:37.560 --> 2:34:43.359 So here's here's here's how this guy the the architect 2:34:43.440 --> 2:34:45.520 of this program. This is this is how he kind 2:34:45.560 --> 2:34:48.520 of talked talked about this in letters to both his 2:34:48.640 --> 2:34:52.480 like his underlings, and just like openly quote. It is 2:34:52.560 --> 2:34:55.760 readily acknowledged that Indian children lose their natural resistance to 2:34:55.800 --> 2:34:59.000 illness by habituating so close in the residential schools, and 2:34:59.040 --> 2:35:01.560 that they died a much higher rate than in their villages. 2:35:01.760 --> 2:35:03.920 But this does not justify a change in the policy 2:35:03.920 --> 2:35:06.560 of this department, which is geared towards a final solution 2:35:06.760 --> 2:35:09.680 for our Indian problem. It is quite within the market 2:35:09.720 --> 2:35:11.680 to say that fifty of children who passed through these 2:35:11.720 --> 2:35:14.120 schools did not live to benefit from the education and 2:35:14.200 --> 2:35:18.320 which they had received. So that's that's just what he 2:35:18.400 --> 2:35:21.440 calls it. He says, the final solution to the Indian problem. 2:35:21.480 --> 2:35:25.200 It's very very very clear. What what like that. That's 2:35:25.240 --> 2:35:27.480 just the language he uses. And this was like before 2:35:27.560 --> 2:35:32.040 Hitler though, like this was this was attention to these Yeah, 2:35:32.200 --> 2:35:33.720 yeah like this this is just like this is the 2:35:33.800 --> 2:35:36.040 mindset of all of these same people. This is all 2:35:36.120 --> 2:35:40.199 of all of the same thing. Um. Another another another 2:35:40.320 --> 2:35:42.840 quote from this dude is I want to get rid 2:35:42.879 --> 2:35:44.480 of the Indian problem. I do not think of it 2:35:44.520 --> 2:35:46.240 as a matter of fact that the country ought to 2:35:46.320 --> 2:35:48.880 continually protect a class of people who are able to 2:35:49.000 --> 2:35:51.720 stand alone. That's my whole point. Our objective is to 2:35:51.760 --> 2:35:54.240 continue until there's not a single Indian in Canada that 2:35:54.320 --> 2:35:57.240 has not been absorbed into the into the body politic, 2:35:57.400 --> 2:36:00.920 and there's no Indian question and no Indie Department. That 2:36:01.080 --> 2:36:03.720 is the whole objective of this bill. The bill referring 2:36:03.720 --> 2:36:08.160 to the residential schools program. So that's that's how he 2:36:08.400 --> 2:36:10.680 talks about these things. Um. There there's other letters that 2:36:10.840 --> 2:36:14.560 he's sent that's like telling his um, his like agents, 2:36:14.600 --> 2:36:18.000 because he had like agents stationed at at Canadian at 2:36:18.040 --> 2:36:22.000 Canadian reserves to like not let Indians do dancing because 2:36:22.040 --> 2:36:24.480 both that's you know, that's doing their cultural practice, but 2:36:24.520 --> 2:36:26.480 also it will distract them from learning how to do 2:36:26.680 --> 2:36:29.440 Western farming. Um. Like they weren't allowed to go to 2:36:29.640 --> 2:36:33.959 fairs or exhibitions or anything that you like that anything 2:36:34.040 --> 2:36:36.520 that has like that is reminiscent of like any kind 2:36:36.520 --> 2:36:40.400 of cultural tradition that is not white in European. Um. 2:36:41.320 --> 2:36:44.000 So he he is, he is a pretty pretty pretty 2:36:44.040 --> 2:36:46.480 bad dude. He probably deserves his own his own thing 2:36:46.680 --> 2:36:49.200 that this this specific guy. But you can you can 2:36:49.280 --> 2:36:51.360 kind of see like these like fascist ideas and rhetoric 2:36:51.560 --> 2:36:53.879 are not foreign to Canada. Um. And you know it's 2:36:53.920 --> 2:36:58.080 been there since its infancy. Now, Canadian politics is very 2:36:58.120 --> 2:37:00.760 different in a lot of ways compared to American politic ticks. Uh. 2:37:00.920 --> 2:37:03.600 Canada tries to kind of follow the European model, whereas 2:37:03.600 --> 2:37:05.960 America is very much like the rebel state that tries 2:37:06.040 --> 2:37:08.440 to play on its play by its own rules. Um. 2:37:08.720 --> 2:37:11.800 Kind of The first main difference is that Canada isn't 2:37:11.840 --> 2:37:15.040 a two party system. Um, it's it's more like a 2:37:15.120 --> 2:37:17.280 two party plus the system. Because yeah, there still is 2:37:17.360 --> 2:37:19.360 the main liberals and the main Conservatives, but there are 2:37:19.480 --> 2:37:22.080 there are other parties that actually can get elected. Um. 2:37:22.560 --> 2:37:24.680 And it's it's not it's not like a strictly two 2:37:24.680 --> 2:37:26.640 party system the same way the States is. So that 2:37:26.760 --> 2:37:30.440 makes things more interesting. Um. And another thing that's really 2:37:30.520 --> 2:37:33.320 interesting about like a cultural politics. That's that's different from 2:37:33.320 --> 2:37:35.840 the States, you know. Besides, you know, Canada obviously has 2:37:35.879 --> 2:37:38.480 like a parliament and the prime minister. That's different. But 2:37:39.160 --> 2:37:46.080 the Canada view and Canadians view nationalism and patriotism very differently, uh, 2:37:46.240 --> 2:37:51.880 compared to to like United States, Um. Citizens patriotism and 2:37:51.959 --> 2:37:54.880 in some ways nationalism have always been kind of more 2:37:54.920 --> 2:37:58.320 of a liberal progressive thing um, you know, in opposition 2:37:58.400 --> 2:38:01.280 to the States where it is not really seen as 2:38:01.280 --> 2:38:04.560 a liberal progressive thing. Um. It's like, even under conservative leadership, 2:38:05.400 --> 2:38:07.440 Canada kind of pride itself as as sort of like 2:38:07.600 --> 2:38:10.080 liberal utopia. And that's where a lot of the patriotism 2:38:10.160 --> 2:38:12.640 and celebration in Canada comes from. Among its you know, 2:38:12.720 --> 2:38:15.880 mostly liberal and more socially progressive citizens. They like celebrate 2:38:15.959 --> 2:38:19.000 Canada as like this great progressive nation, and that's where 2:38:19.000 --> 2:38:21.640 a lot of the patriotism comes from. Is like, oh look, 2:38:21.720 --> 2:38:25.240 look how progressive we are. Um. Then the nationalism part 2:38:25.280 --> 2:38:27.600 can be a bit more tricky, uh, because you first 2:38:27.600 --> 2:38:31.160 need to understand like the English and French divide which 2:38:31.360 --> 2:38:34.440 within the country, which I barely understand that to be honest, 2:38:34.480 --> 2:38:36.000 I was I was, I was. I was born in 2:38:36.040 --> 2:38:38.360 the Prairies. That was you know, much more of like 2:38:38.440 --> 2:38:42.600 the Protestant English Ilish English settlement. You know, I'm not 2:38:42.640 --> 2:38:45.160 from Quebec, but we'll be talking about Quebec a lot 2:38:45.200 --> 2:38:47.480 here because it is very important to how nationalism works 2:38:47.520 --> 2:38:50.520 in Canada. So the divide between the French and the 2:38:50.600 --> 2:38:55.439 English make elections really interesting because the English majority politicians 2:38:55.760 --> 2:38:58.680 usually need to court some of the French Canadian population 2:38:58.840 --> 2:39:01.640 and and people in Quebec in order to get enough 2:39:01.680 --> 2:39:05.640 parliamentary seats to have a majority government. Because Canada works 2:39:05.760 --> 2:39:09.320 on having a majority within the parliament. Um, you can 2:39:09.400 --> 2:39:11.480 have a minority in in in the Parliament like the 2:39:11.560 --> 2:39:14.440 Liberals currently have. So even if you know, someone doesn't 2:39:14.480 --> 2:39:16.240 win a plurality of votes, that can still be in 2:39:16.280 --> 2:39:18.720 control of the government in an in a minority or 2:39:18.840 --> 2:39:20.880 usually a majority capacity. We'll get into this kind of 2:39:20.879 --> 2:39:24.600 stuff later, um. But even though they need to get 2:39:24.720 --> 2:39:27.600 seats from Quebec to have you know, a decent control 2:39:27.600 --> 2:39:30.160 of Parliament. Quebec kind of likes to act like its 2:39:30.200 --> 2:39:33.240 own special country. Um. They even have their own like 2:39:33.360 --> 2:39:37.160 federal political party, uh, the block Kebuqua and so like that. 2:39:37.240 --> 2:39:39.800 That that's a that's a federal party that operates in 2:39:40.840 --> 2:39:44.200 forwarding the interests of Quebec. Sometimes it functions as like 2:39:44.240 --> 2:39:48.600 a separatist party, but not really anymore. Um. So although 2:39:49.080 --> 2:39:53.959 the Blockbuqua is a lot is a lot more secular 2:39:54.040 --> 2:39:57.480 and progressive than basically any any other major party outside 2:39:57.480 --> 2:40:00.520 of the n d P UM. But despite them being 2:40:00.720 --> 2:40:03.480 much more like socially progressive, that also like one of 2:40:03.560 --> 2:40:08.000 the biggest nationalist parties UM in Canada. And you know, 2:40:08.160 --> 2:40:11.520 the far right parties in Canada have had always had 2:40:11.600 --> 2:40:15.120 their you know brand of ethno nationalism, but that was 2:40:15.200 --> 2:40:17.520 that's that's been much less pronounced than the kind of 2:40:17.640 --> 2:40:20.880 like keep non French Canadians out of Quebec and keep 2:40:20.920 --> 2:40:23.960 Americans out of Canada type of nationalism that's common with 2:40:24.120 --> 2:40:27.959 like liberals UM and specifically you know progressives inside Quebec, 2:40:28.360 --> 2:40:31.320 which you can't blame them for wanting to keep Americans. No, Yeah, 2:40:31.440 --> 2:40:35.039 like good sense. If I could keep Americans out of America, 2:40:35.280 --> 2:40:38.160 I would do it. Yeah. But so that kind of sentiment, 2:40:38.400 --> 2:40:40.880 you can see how that connect like you know, be 2:40:41.120 --> 2:40:45.000 used to foster some not good things though that that 2:40:45.200 --> 2:40:48.040 that that specific type of thinking of of like keeping nationals, 2:40:48.280 --> 2:40:51.400 like you know, keeping four nationals out of your state. Yeah, 2:40:51.600 --> 2:40:53.800 it's good to not have Americans there, but you know 2:40:54.000 --> 2:40:58.480 that's going to get extended towards other people's unfortunate Yeah, 2:40:58.600 --> 2:41:01.200 and and like so even though the nationalism can be 2:41:01.240 --> 2:41:03.400 a lot more progressive, that's not to say as no 2:41:03.520 --> 2:41:07.000 nationalism does not come up within these sex um, which 2:41:07.120 --> 2:41:09.600 is going to bring us to uh when when a 2:41:09.680 --> 2:41:13.879 briefly talk about something from the thirties called the called 2:41:13.920 --> 2:41:18.400 the National Unity Party of the National Unity Party of Canada. Um, 2:41:18.520 --> 2:41:21.160 the National Union Party National Unity Party, that is a 2:41:21.400 --> 2:41:24.560 weird thing to say. Um was was originally called the 2:41:24.760 --> 2:41:31.720 Canadian National Socialist Unity Party. Oh wait, now that remindmate 2:41:32.640 --> 2:41:36.560 national socialism. That seems like a term with a little 2:41:36.560 --> 2:41:41.400 bit of baggage. Remember correctly, yep, it sort of does. Um. 2:41:41.720 --> 2:41:45.480 So that this was a party formed in nineteen thirty 2:41:45.520 --> 2:41:49.879 four by a little Nazi shot head named Adrian R. Khan. Um. 2:41:50.080 --> 2:41:51.760 Now that is if you cannot tell that it's me 2:41:51.840 --> 2:41:53.959 trying to say a French name. So he is from Quebec. 2:41:54.040 --> 2:41:58.400 This is a lot of Canadian Nazi stuff originates inside 2:41:58.480 --> 2:42:02.800 Quebec because it already has such nationalist tendencies. Um. So 2:42:03.400 --> 2:42:06.440 our cons introduction into nationalism started around the turn of 2:42:06.480 --> 2:42:10.280 the century, um amid fears in Quebec that Chinese immigration 2:42:10.560 --> 2:42:14.120 would threaten the white French Canadian working class. Um, this 2:42:14.480 --> 2:42:18.080 is still a big thing in Canada. Uh. Racism and 2:42:18.160 --> 2:42:20.720 nationalism against the Chinese is still a big thing. We 2:42:20.760 --> 2:42:22.440 will talk about this at the very end of this 2:42:22.640 --> 2:42:25.160 of this of of these episodes, because it's that's still 2:42:25.160 --> 2:42:29.200 a thing the Conservative Party talks about a lot. Um So. Yeah, 2:42:29.560 --> 2:42:32.960 his his internationalism was because of fears of Chinese immigration 2:42:33.000 --> 2:42:36.800 in the early nineteen hundreds. Um, the the anti his 2:42:36.959 --> 2:42:39.640 so his anti immigrants upbringing, plus the fact that he 2:42:39.680 --> 2:42:42.200 attended the Catholic school. Um that there there there was 2:42:42.280 --> 2:42:44.120 no there was no public schools in Quebec until the 2:42:44.200 --> 2:42:48.160 nineteen sixties. All of the schools were either Catholic or Protestant. 2:42:48.480 --> 2:42:51.680 Now this is also part of the cultural divide inside Canada, 2:42:51.720 --> 2:42:54.440 where usually the English speakers are Protestant and they're usually 2:42:54.520 --> 2:42:57.960 further west and the and the Catholics are usually you know, 2:42:58.000 --> 2:43:00.560 French Canadians. There's a lot of that inside Quebec. Um. 2:43:01.080 --> 2:43:04.400 So he went to a Catholic school of which were 2:43:04.440 --> 2:43:07.920 at the time very anti Jewish because what was happening 2:43:08.000 --> 2:43:09.600 is that the Jewish people in Quebec wanted to make 2:43:09.640 --> 2:43:12.680 their own Jewish schools, and the Catholics, like in charge, 2:43:12.720 --> 2:43:14.760 didn't want that because then that'd be less people were 2:43:14.800 --> 2:43:17.280 inside Catholic schools, and they weren't you know, learning Catholicism. 2:43:17.760 --> 2:43:19.520 So there's a lot, a lot of stuff going on 2:43:19.680 --> 2:43:22.720 here that is kind of extreme contributing. So he was 2:43:22.879 --> 2:43:25.000 you know, already anti immigrant because of the Chinese, and 2:43:25.040 --> 2:43:27.160 then he got got exposed to anti Semitism inside its 2:43:27.200 --> 2:43:29.880 Catholic schools um and that you know, pushed him onto 2:43:29.920 --> 2:43:33.800 this specific path. So in Urkhan made a deal with 2:43:33.920 --> 2:43:36.680 the head of the Conservative Party R. B. Bennett that 2:43:36.760 --> 2:43:39.039 in exchange for fifteen thousand dollars, which is like two 2:43:39.120 --> 2:43:41.879 hundred and fifty thou dollars in today's money, our our 2:43:41.920 --> 2:43:45.640 con would craft a smear campaign. Um trying to assist 2:43:45.680 --> 2:43:49.200 the Conservatives in basically smearing the Liberals to gain more 2:43:49.280 --> 2:43:51.920 Conservative support inside the province of Quebec, which at the 2:43:51.959 --> 2:43:56.120 time was majority liberal leaning. So our Kan got to 2:43:56.120 --> 2:43:59.320 work and started prepping like pseudo fascist propaganda for the 2:43:59.360 --> 2:44:02.520 Conservatives um and by the nineteen thirty federal election it 2:44:02.560 --> 2:44:06.039 absolutely worked um Bennett and the Conservatives one they gained 2:44:06.080 --> 2:44:09.480 twenty four parliamentary seats in Quebec, which is a massive success. 2:44:09.560 --> 2:44:12.199 Like before they did not win any seats in Quebec. 2:44:12.280 --> 2:44:14.720 So gaining twenty four seats in for over the course 2:44:14.760 --> 2:44:18.400 of just one election, massive win. Um. So after getting 2:44:18.400 --> 2:44:22.200 the after getting the Conservatives elected, the Conservative Party dropped 2:44:22.280 --> 2:44:25.200 Arkhan because he was, you know, a little hashtag problematic 2:44:25.800 --> 2:44:29.520 um uh huh. So after he got dropped by the 2:44:29.520 --> 2:44:32.880 Conservatives short shortly later, our Khan made contact with the 2:44:33.040 --> 2:44:36.720 growing National Socialist Party in Germany um and over the 2:44:36.800 --> 2:44:38.960 next few years he just he started to gain more 2:44:39.040 --> 2:44:41.880 fascist contacts around the world. He would exchange letters, people 2:44:41.920 --> 2:44:44.440 from people like Peteople, people from the German Nazis would 2:44:44.480 --> 2:44:46.640 come over and meet with what and come over to 2:44:46.680 --> 2:44:48.440 Canada and see what he was doing. He would travel 2:44:48.520 --> 2:44:52.040 around meeting other other Nazis around the world. Um, so 2:44:52.120 --> 2:44:54.080 it's kind of just like just gaining a lot, a 2:44:54.120 --> 2:44:56.920 lot more contacts. So then in nineteen thirty four he 2:44:57.000 --> 2:44:59.560 formed his own fascist party, which is the Canadian National 2:44:59.600 --> 2:45:02.920 Socialist Unity Party, and within that year, so in in 2:45:03.000 --> 2:45:06.000 the you know, midnighteen thirties, it merged with other Canadian 2:45:06.080 --> 2:45:09.040 nationalist parties that were more based in the west, so 2:45:09.160 --> 2:45:12.320 you know, in the prairies like Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC. 2:45:12.920 --> 2:45:15.520 So he emerged a few other kind of nationalist groups 2:45:15.920 --> 2:45:18.840 and started gaining traction, getting thousands and thousands of members. 2:45:18.920 --> 2:45:21.039 This actually became an actual thing. You can find footage 2:45:21.040 --> 2:45:23.400 of of his rallies and they're just terrifying, just like 2:45:23.480 --> 2:45:25.200 you know, just it's it's the same thing whenever you 2:45:25.280 --> 2:45:28.960 see like the Nazis, you know, rallying in Britain. You 2:45:29.000 --> 2:45:31.480 know it it feels different than watching a Nazi rally 2:45:31.520 --> 2:45:33.840 in Germany because you can feel a lot more, you know, 2:45:33.959 --> 2:45:36.200 if it's it's it's the same feeling, but come but 2:45:36.360 --> 2:45:39.680 come home your own countrymen kind of do the same 2:45:39.800 --> 2:45:42.280 thing that you associate with the old footage of dead 2:45:42.360 --> 2:45:48.000 people is exactly yeah, so he was getting thousand numbers 2:45:48.040 --> 2:45:50.800 across Canada. UM, you know, mostly in the provinces of 2:45:50.920 --> 2:45:54.680 of Quebec and Alberta. So the two main provinces were 2:45:54.760 --> 2:45:56.840 to talk about are going to be Quebeca and and 2:45:56.879 --> 2:45:58.800 Alberta because that's where a lot of a lot of 2:45:59.080 --> 2:46:02.000 the far right stuff get started out. UM. So in 2:46:02.080 --> 2:46:05.800 ninety eight, so that's like four years after he started this, Uh, 2:46:05.879 --> 2:46:09.440 the Canadian National Socialist Unity Party merged again, this time 2:46:09.480 --> 2:46:12.959 with various nationalist group groups and so called swastika clubs. 2:46:13.520 --> 2:46:17.160 UM in there we're already inside like Ontario and Quebec, 2:46:17.280 --> 2:46:19.360 so on the eastern side of Canada. So now he 2:46:19.560 --> 2:46:23.440 he united both the Quebec stuff, Eastern Canada and Western Canada. 2:46:23.720 --> 2:46:26.440 And then he called that the National Unity Party UM 2:46:26.560 --> 2:46:33.120 and our Khan appointed himself the Canadian fural Gosh, yes so, 2:46:33.360 --> 2:46:36.120 and I'm going to quote from a time Time magazine 2:46:36.160 --> 2:46:40.840 piece from July of nineteen thirty eight, Our Cohn scheduled 2:46:40.920 --> 2:46:45.160 Canada's first national fascist convention for Kingston, Ontario. The mayor 2:46:45.240 --> 2:46:47.680 and city council did not want a fascist convention held 2:46:47.720 --> 2:46:50.640 in their city and called the police to prevent it. Defiantly, 2:46:51.000 --> 2:46:53.640 Leader Arkhan slipped forty five of his leaders into a 2:46:53.760 --> 2:46:57.480 room near police headquarters. It's this old tibe language held 2:46:57.560 --> 2:47:01.920 forth unmolested for five and a half hours. Upon emerging, 2:47:02.120 --> 2:47:05.240 Leader Arcan wired thanks to the mayor for his courtesy 2:47:05.320 --> 2:47:08.560 extended and announced the formation of the new National Unity Party. 2:47:08.879 --> 2:47:12.160 A flaming torch will be the new party's emblem, Canada 2:47:12.240 --> 2:47:15.440 for Canadians, its slogan, and the upraised arm of its 2:47:15.520 --> 2:47:22.039 salute for King, Country and Christianity. Moving onto Ontario, leader 2:47:22.120 --> 2:47:25.760 Arcan supported by eighty five of his Blue Shirts. Uh 2:47:25.920 --> 2:47:28.000 he claims there were eighty thousand members at the time, 2:47:28.520 --> 2:47:31.279 held a meeting in Nancy Hall that there was attended 2:47:31.360 --> 2:47:35.440 by about eight hundred sympathizers. More impressive, however, there were 2:47:35.520 --> 2:47:40.120 three anti fascist counter demonstrations held simultaneously. Two outdoor anti 2:47:40.200 --> 2:47:43.879 fascist meetings drew four hundred persons until broken up by 2:47:43.959 --> 2:47:47.160 police fearing a clash, But at Maple Leaf Gardens the 2:47:47.200 --> 2:47:50.600 Canadian League of Peace and Democracy attracted ten thousand so 2:47:51.360 --> 2:47:54.760 as was the first big fascist rally in Canada. There 2:47:54.879 --> 2:47:56.800 was like, you know, ten thousands of these more liberal 2:47:56.879 --> 2:48:00.080 people rallying elsewhere and four hundred like anti fascion just 2:48:00.360 --> 2:48:03.000 ready to you know, beat up these Nazis, um, but 2:48:03.160 --> 2:48:06.280 then the police beat them up. Because history doesn't change. 2:48:06.320 --> 2:48:08.280 Times of flat circle, we're still doing the same thing. Now. 2:48:08.959 --> 2:48:12.800 Do you know who won't rally eight hundred Canadian Nazis 2:48:12.920 --> 2:48:18.360 called the Blue Shirts to sell you products? Tell us 2:48:18.920 --> 2:48:25.240 promise that, yeah, depending depending what. Because Hello Fresh has 2:48:25.959 --> 2:48:29.920 recently been sending there, why do you always pick Hello Fresh? 2:48:30.080 --> 2:48:35.520 There are so many worse brands that we can't ignore 2:48:35.600 --> 2:48:38.760 the fact that they've been increasingly building their militant capacity 2:48:38.879 --> 2:48:41.400 for the last seven years. Anyway, here's some ads. You 2:48:41.400 --> 2:48:44.960 have too much to read, and we are back talking 2:48:45.000 --> 2:48:51.040 about the Canadian Blue Shirts, Um, the Hello Fresh, Hello 2:48:52.080 --> 2:48:59.560 Shut please continue, Blue Aprons, the Blue Aprons, thanks Chris 2:48:59.680 --> 2:49:02.760 that they Christopher saving the bit all right, thank you. Um. 2:49:03.280 --> 2:49:06.000 So next year, after his first rally was nineteen thirty nine, 2:49:06.200 --> 2:49:08.360 World War two obviously started to ramp up, and the 2:49:08.400 --> 2:49:11.800 Canadian government arrested Arkhan for plotting to overthrow the state 2:49:12.240 --> 2:49:15.000 UM and his National Unity Party was banned from federal elections. 2:49:15.520 --> 2:49:18.160 Arkhan was released from prison after the war, but he 2:49:18.240 --> 2:49:21.040 continued his political aspirations. UM. He ran for federal election 2:49:21.160 --> 2:49:23.840 twice in Quebec, once in nineteen forty nine and once 2:49:23.920 --> 2:49:27.000 in nineteen fifty three. Both times he uh, he ran 2:49:27.120 --> 2:49:29.720 under his National Unity Party banner despite it being banned 2:49:29.720 --> 2:49:31.960 from elections. I don't know how he did that, um, 2:49:32.480 --> 2:49:36.080 both times, laws are fake. Yeah. Both times he placed 2:49:36.200 --> 2:49:39.600 second with over five and a half five and a 2:49:39.600 --> 2:49:42.000 half thousand votes, which was about like thirty percent of 2:49:42.160 --> 2:49:45.160 of of the vote. Um. Actually, but the second time 2:49:45.320 --> 2:49:47.960 he ran as he ran just under a nationalist banner, um, 2:49:48.000 --> 2:49:50.160 and he got second as well, but he got like 2:49:50.840 --> 2:49:52.920 the vote, so he he did a slight slightly better 2:49:53.000 --> 2:49:55.200 just running as a nationalist in Quebec, not like the 2:49:55.320 --> 2:49:57.840 National Unity thing because that was, you know, more overtly Nazi. 2:49:58.400 --> 2:50:00.760 But he kept holding National Uni of the party public 2:50:00.840 --> 2:50:04.280 rallies until the mid sixties. His last rally I think 2:50:04.320 --> 2:50:08.720 attracted like one thousand supporters, too many. I was hoping 2:50:08.760 --> 2:50:10.440 you were able to say like three and there was 2:50:10.640 --> 2:50:14.240 probably sad footage, but that's sad in a different way. Yeah. 2:50:14.879 --> 2:50:19.760 So he finally died in nineteen sixty seven, and with 2:50:20.000 --> 2:50:24.240 him also died the National Unity Party. I So I 2:50:24.480 --> 2:50:26.880 bring this one up because it's one funked up and 2:50:26.959 --> 2:50:30.520 interesting um and too, it's like it's indicative of the 2:50:30.640 --> 2:50:35.000 weirdness that can come out of Quebec's nationalist political bent. Uh. 2:50:35.280 --> 2:50:38.200 We can see that now with a modern fact, you know, 2:50:38.440 --> 2:50:41.240 neo fascist Canadian political party that's based out of Quebec, 2:50:41.480 --> 2:50:44.280 which we will talk about shortly. Um, but even like 2:50:44.320 --> 2:50:48.400 the nationalist tendencies within Quebec's more mainstream progressive population. Like 2:50:48.480 --> 2:50:51.240 I'm going to read some of the policy positions of 2:50:51.400 --> 2:50:53.640 the Block cabu Qua party. That's that's that, that's the 2:50:53.800 --> 2:50:57.520 that's like the Quebec sovereignty you know, party that is 2:50:58.160 --> 2:51:01.359 still actually very very pot killer in in elections specifically 2:51:01.360 --> 2:51:03.600 in Quebec. And just ahead of this, if you're a 2:51:03.680 --> 2:51:07.320 French speaker and you're frustrated by Garrison's pronunciations or my 2:51:07.440 --> 2:51:13.280 pronunciations of Quebecua that your language isn't real and it's fine, 2:51:14.160 --> 2:51:17.840 and you're desended from the French. Yeah, and you're responsible 2:51:17.879 --> 2:51:22.160 for this Nazi so unlike unlike English speakers who have 2:51:22.200 --> 2:51:28.280 been responsible for Spanish. That's my take, okay, anyway, saying 2:51:28.360 --> 2:51:32.400 Spanish here here here is the progressive liberal block Qubuqua 2:51:33.280 --> 2:51:37.080 policy positions UM Quebec sovereignty you know, up into independence. 2:51:37.120 --> 2:51:39.160 But usually it's just you know, them pushing the interests 2:51:39.160 --> 2:51:44.280 of Quebec. UM environmentalism, abortion rights, you know, pro abortion rights, UM, 2:51:44.440 --> 2:51:48.200 l g l g lgbt Q rights, UM, legalization of 2:51:48.400 --> 2:51:53.080 assisted suicide, UM, opposition to Canadian participation in the Iraq war, 2:51:53.840 --> 2:52:00.680 UMU abolition, abolition of the abolition of the monarchy. All right, Uh, 2:52:01.200 --> 2:52:06.560 forcing forcing immigrants to speak French in Quebec lost lost 2:52:07.280 --> 2:52:11.760 blocking immigration to Quebec. You've also lost me the Quebec 2:52:11.840 --> 2:52:14.720 Secularism Law, which bans public workers in positions of authority 2:52:14.760 --> 2:52:17.959 from wearing religious symbols primarily targeted at Muslims, and seeks 2:52:20.440 --> 2:52:26.800 exemption Quebec's exemption from the requirements of the Multiculturalism Act. Yeah. 2:52:26.879 --> 2:52:28.720 I mean, I don't know the Multicultural Act, but I'm 2:52:29.040 --> 2:52:31.320 it's great. It's it's it's good. So yeah, so you 2:52:31.360 --> 2:52:33.240 can kind of see how like they have you know, 2:52:34.000 --> 2:52:37.240 all these like you know, pretty good, pretty good progressive 2:52:37.280 --> 2:52:41.480 STIGs and then and then they get really anti immigrant, right, 2:52:41.760 --> 2:52:43.920 so this is like this is kind of hard to 2:52:43.959 --> 2:52:46.480 explain to Americans, how like you can be very like 2:52:46.680 --> 2:52:49.160 pro gay, pro you know, abolition of the monarchy, but 2:52:49.200 --> 2:52:51.080 then also be like no, but we don't want those 2:52:51.120 --> 2:52:57.440 brown people in Quebec. Yeah. So yeah, anyway, we're gon 2:52:57.560 --> 2:52:59.840 we're gonna move on from Quebec specifically, but don't worry, 2:53:00.040 --> 2:53:02.960 we will be back because you're still a problem. But 2:53:03.040 --> 2:53:05.160 there there are there are other things too, are other 2:53:05.200 --> 2:53:08.879 things to discuss. So after our CON's fascist Canadian movement, 2:53:09.040 --> 2:53:12.080 there was a stint of like Canadian skinheads in the seventies, 2:53:12.160 --> 2:53:14.240 you know, around the same time as the UK and 2:53:14.440 --> 2:53:17.439 the US. UM in the seventies, there was an unsuccessful 2:53:17.520 --> 2:53:20.720 Nazi party called the Nationalist Party of Canada that spawned 2:53:20.800 --> 2:53:24.560 a skinhead gang called Heritage Front. Um. Heritage Front disbanded 2:53:24.560 --> 2:53:27.800 around the mid two thousands because the Canadian Feds infiltrated 2:53:27.840 --> 2:53:29.880 it and kind of you know cut that down, so 2:53:30.360 --> 2:53:33.240 critical support to the Canadian fans. But now we're gonna 2:53:33.280 --> 2:53:36.240 move on to Unite the right, not not not the 2:53:36.360 --> 2:53:38.880 unite right that you're thinking of, the Canadian Unite the 2:53:38.959 --> 2:53:41.960 Right movement from the ninety nineties and early two thousands. 2:53:42.480 --> 2:53:46.240 That one probably wasn't problematic right there. It has no 2:53:46.400 --> 2:53:52.600 lasting problems so because of because of Canada's multi multiparty system, 2:53:52.680 --> 2:53:56.280 there's more opportunity for ideologically similar parties to split the vote, 2:53:56.400 --> 2:53:59.520 you know, of people leaning in a certain direction. Um. 2:53:59.640 --> 2:54:02.200 Throughout most of the later half of the twentieth century, 2:54:02.400 --> 2:54:05.760 they were multiple conservative right wing parties that were operating 2:54:05.760 --> 2:54:07.720 at the same time, which did split the right of 2:54:07.800 --> 2:54:10.280 center vote. This is in part what allowed Canada to 2:54:10.440 --> 2:54:12.520 rise as like a liberal haven, because for a while 2:54:13.000 --> 2:54:15.400 the Conservatives just couldn't get elected because they were splitting 2:54:15.440 --> 2:54:17.720 the vote too many ways, leaving the main liberal party 2:54:17.879 --> 2:54:20.920 to win the vast majority of elections. Um. Obviously this 2:54:21.000 --> 2:54:24.400 frustrated right wing politicians and vote and voters than in 2:54:24.480 --> 2:54:26.560 the ninety nineties there were there were there were two 2:54:26.640 --> 2:54:30.080 main right wing parties. There was the older Progressive Conservative Party. 2:54:30.360 --> 2:54:34.119 They're like a classically fiscal conservative party with slightly less 2:54:34.360 --> 2:54:38.119 socially conservative beliefs, so you know, I would rather take 2:54:38.200 --> 2:54:41.600 them compared to the alternatives here. Um. The other major 2:54:41.720 --> 2:54:44.640 party was a right of center party called the Reform Party, 2:54:44.640 --> 2:54:46.680 which was much more of like a right wing populist 2:54:46.800 --> 2:54:50.320 and extremely socially conservative party, more similar to like the 2:54:50.400 --> 2:54:53.280 Trump era Republican Party. You know, they they're they're they're 2:54:53.400 --> 2:54:55.920 much they're much more right wing, populist, they're way more 2:54:55.959 --> 2:54:58.680 socially conservative, kind of what we traditionally think of as like, 2:54:58.800 --> 2:55:01.200 you know, like a racist Republican that this this this 2:55:01.360 --> 2:55:04.800 is their party called called the Reform Party. So, after 2:55:05.040 --> 2:55:07.640 after loss after loss throughout the nineties and during the 2:55:07.680 --> 2:55:10.720 turn of the century, concertative efforts were being made between 2:55:11.000 --> 2:55:14.320 these two parties to unite into one. In nineteen there 2:55:14.400 --> 2:55:17.320 was a Unite the Right conference held in Toronto, Ontario, 2:55:17.640 --> 2:55:20.080 trying to bring together politicians and delegates from these two 2:55:20.160 --> 2:55:23.240 main conservative parties. But they also brought in some much 2:55:23.320 --> 2:55:26.720 more extreme Christian fascist parties, which there was like four 2:55:26.720 --> 2:55:28.040 of at the time. There was a lot of a 2:55:28.120 --> 2:55:31.680 lot of Christian fascist parties around this time. Um so 2:55:31.959 --> 2:55:35.440 the conference garnered a negative news coverage in part to 2:55:35.560 --> 2:55:38.440 due to the inclusion of these far right Christian extremist parties. 2:55:38.920 --> 2:55:41.800 And then after the conference, polls were conducted that suggested 2:55:41.879 --> 2:55:45.080 that many of the progressive conservative supporters would rather vote 2:55:45.120 --> 2:55:48.720 liberal than vote for the new kind of merged, more 2:55:48.800 --> 2:55:50.800 extreme right wing party. So like a lot of these 2:55:50.840 --> 2:55:53.600 a lot of these fiscal conservatives are like no, I'm 2:55:53.640 --> 2:55:55.560 not going to vote for all of this weird racism. 2:55:55.840 --> 2:55:57.720 I just don't want there to be higher taxes. So 2:55:57.879 --> 2:55:59.959 like I'm gonna I'm gonna rather vote for the liberals 2:56:00.280 --> 2:56:02.600 then vote for these fucking weirdos, which I mean, yeah, 2:56:02.800 --> 2:56:08.080 that's that, that's the Conservative I would rather have. UM. 2:56:08.560 --> 2:56:10.880 So the conference didn't sit well with the with the 2:56:10.920 --> 2:56:15.240 Progressive Conservative Party. UM it's politicians or or the political leaders. 2:56:15.520 --> 2:56:18.240 So the merger plans were cut off. They're like, no, 2:56:18.400 --> 2:56:19.760 we're not going to do this. You guys are too 2:56:19.800 --> 2:56:23.440 weird and racist. We're not doing this. UM. Then in 2:56:23.520 --> 2:56:25.560 two thousand to no. I think this is important that 2:56:26.080 --> 2:56:28.440 this was after nine eleven. I think this is really 2:56:28.480 --> 2:56:31.480 the reason why this happened. UM. One of the original 2:56:31.640 --> 2:56:34.120 Reform Party founders that the Reform Party is the more 2:56:34.160 --> 2:56:37.199 populist one. So one of the original founders named Stephen 2:56:37.240 --> 2:56:41.320 Harper took control of the populist Conservative Party and works 2:56:41.400 --> 2:56:43.880 to improve the optics of the more extreme sides of 2:56:43.959 --> 2:56:46.680 his party. I think it's very important this this happened 2:56:46.680 --> 2:56:48.920 after nine eleven, and this is how the merger actually worked. 2:56:49.120 --> 2:56:51.360 So in two thousand three, merger talks start sort of 2:56:51.440 --> 2:56:53.640 up again, and in August of that year, the two 2:56:53.680 --> 2:56:56.160 parties announced the merger had been completed. There was a 2:56:56.240 --> 2:56:59.760 new United Conservative Party. UM. In the announcement, harper is 2:56:59.800 --> 2:57:02.959 quote it as saying, our swords will henceforth be pointed 2:57:03.040 --> 2:57:06.480 at the Liberals, not each other, And in December Harper 2:57:06.600 --> 2:57:09.680 was voted in as the new party leader. The work 2:57:09.840 --> 2:57:12.120 did pay off in the two US and six Canadian 2:57:12.160 --> 2:57:15.800 federal election. The Conservatives gained a controlling minority government among 2:57:15.879 --> 2:57:19.119 the electorate, with the former co founder of the extremist 2:57:19.640 --> 2:57:23.000 you know, populist Reform Party, Stephen Harper, becoming the new 2:57:23.040 --> 2:57:26.000 Prime Minister of Canada. So this is how he got 2:57:26.080 --> 2:57:28.080 from Reform Party to being the you know, the prime 2:57:28.120 --> 2:57:30.960 minister in throughout through the two thousand's um he was 2:57:31.040 --> 2:57:32.560 the Prime Minister of Canada for most of the time 2:57:32.600 --> 2:57:34.200 I lived there. That that that's who I think of 2:57:34.280 --> 2:57:35.840 when I think of the Prime Minister of Canada's I 2:57:35.920 --> 2:57:40.000 think of Stephen Harper. So Harper remained as Prime minister 2:57:40.200 --> 2:57:43.280 until the two US fifteen election that saw noted black 2:57:43.320 --> 2:57:47.800 face appreciator Justin Trudeau elected under the Liberal Party. So 2:57:48.480 --> 2:57:52.440 that's good, what a good system we have that that 2:57:52.720 --> 2:57:59.880 that man like just your range of his pla say 2:58:00.000 --> 2:58:04.120 what you will about the man, very careful. You know 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:08.800 you under no circumstances gonna hand it to him. You 2:58:08.879 --> 2:58:11.120 do not, in fact have to hand it to him. 2:58:11.840 --> 2:58:15.200 Well you have to hand him. Uh the little the 2:58:15.360 --> 2:58:17.240 towel that he uses to get the black face off 2:58:17.280 --> 2:58:21.000 of his face can go into his work running Canada. 2:58:21.560 --> 2:58:27.560 Huh yep, cool country. Didn't find out that like five 2:58:27.640 --> 2:58:31.520 of our governors all had black face photos. It was 2:58:32.400 --> 2:58:34.680 it was. It was a big year for black face. 2:58:34.879 --> 2:58:38.720 It really, It's incredible because I can't picture. Like again, 2:58:38.800 --> 2:58:42.440 I grew up very right wing and definitely had some 2:58:42.800 --> 2:58:45.160 said some uncomfortable things in my time. I don't think 2:58:45.160 --> 2:58:46.560 there was ever a point at which I would have 2:58:46.560 --> 2:58:50.320 been like, yeah, this seems like a good right it's 2:58:50.400 --> 2:58:57.040 what the fuck? Like? Yeah? Pretty? What is the joke there? 2:58:57.120 --> 2:59:06.840 It's pretty? It's pretty bad? Uh? Justin Trudeau? Uh yeah 2:59:06.959 --> 2:59:11.240 he is. He is the one all of the wine 2:59:11.280 --> 2:59:20.080 Mom's thirst over. Yeah yeah. Anyway. Um. Beyond making it 2:59:20.200 --> 2:59:22.840 easier to vote in right of center candidates, what what 2:59:23.000 --> 2:59:25.920 the Canadian Unite the Right accomplished was pushing the conservative 2:59:25.959 --> 2:59:28.760 establishment much further to the right than what the previously 2:59:28.840 --> 2:59:33.000 popular progressive Conservatives had established, while maintaining the respectability and 2:59:33.080 --> 2:59:37.240 civility the progressive Conservatives had cultivated. We are now going 2:59:37.280 --> 2:59:41.760 to skip ahead to two thousand seventeen. UM. In January seventeen, 2:59:42.160 --> 2:59:45.119 soon after the US President Donald Trump put into place 2:59:45.200 --> 2:59:48.879 the travel band from from you know, seven Muslim majority countries, 2:59:49.120 --> 2:59:52.240 Prime Minister Justin Trudeau delivered a message via Twitter to 2:59:52.360 --> 2:59:55.800 those fleeing persecution, terror and war. Canadians will welcome you, 2:59:55.879 --> 2:59:59.520 regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength. Hashtag welcome 2:59:59.560 --> 3:00:03.640 to Canada. Though, so Trudeau was like, if the US 3:00:03.760 --> 3:00:07.080 is gonna be racist, we're gonna we're gonna let them in. 3:00:07.520 --> 3:00:10.120 UM for this, uh, for this next part, I'm going 3:00:10.160 --> 3:00:13.440 to quote from the New York Times. UM. Just hours 3:00:13.480 --> 3:00:16.960 after watching the television report suggesting Canada would accept immigrants 3:00:17.640 --> 3:00:20.280 that were shunned by Trump, the twenty eight year old 3:00:20.360 --> 3:00:23.720 political science student packed his glock, handgun and rifle and 3:00:23.879 --> 3:00:26.160 trudged through the snow covered streets of Quebec to a 3:00:26.280 --> 3:00:30.520 nearby Islamic cultural center. As fifty three men were finishing 3:00:30.600 --> 3:00:34.080 evening prayers. He unloaded forty eight rounds. Six people were killed, 3:00:34.320 --> 3:00:36.920 several of them with shots to the head, and nineteen 3:00:36.959 --> 3:00:40.160 others were injured. One was paralyzed for life. In the 3:00:40.240 --> 3:00:43.720 month before his rampage, the shooter tralled the Internet eight 3:00:43.840 --> 3:00:47.200 hundred and nineteen times for posts related to Mr Trump, 3:00:47.480 --> 3:00:50.080 reading his Twitter feed daily and homing in on the 3:00:50.120 --> 3:00:53.960 American president's travel ban on several Muslim majority countries. He 3:00:54.080 --> 3:00:55.960 kept a cache of guns underneath his bed at his 3:00:56.080 --> 3:00:58.920 parents house, and among his friends was just his twin brother. 3:00:59.360 --> 3:01:01.520 The shooter told investigators that he wished he had killed 3:01:01.560 --> 3:01:03.640 more people and he wanted to protect his family from 3:01:03.680 --> 3:01:07.520 Islamic terrorists. Experts on radicalization say that in Quebec, the 3:01:07.560 --> 3:01:10.280 French speaking province surrounded by an English speaking majority, the 3:01:10.360 --> 3:01:15.000 anti immigrant far right offers fertile, fertile, imperilous ground for 3:01:15.120 --> 3:01:19.000 psychologically unstable youths seeking a sense of identity and a scapegoat. 3:01:20.000 --> 3:01:22.520 The head of the Canadian based Center of Prevention of 3:01:22.760 --> 3:01:25.600 Radicalization Leading to Violence that they said that the Quebec 3:01:25.640 --> 3:01:27.440 Mosque shooter was in part of it was part of 3:01:27.520 --> 3:01:30.080 a growing number of educated, middle class to white youths 3:01:30.080 --> 3:01:32.800 in Quebec drawn to far right ideas fueled by the 3:01:32.840 --> 3:01:35.520 election of Mr Trump and fanned by fears of immigration 3:01:35.640 --> 3:01:39.040 that threatens Quebec's identity. When the Anti Radicalization Center was 3:01:39.080 --> 3:01:41.600 started in two thousand and fifteen, they dealt with sixteen 3:01:41.640 --> 3:01:44.359 cases of youths in the province that we're getting radicalized 3:01:44.400 --> 3:01:47.600 by the far right. Last year, which was like sixteen, Uh. 3:01:47.760 --> 3:01:51.120 This center had one hundred and fifty four such cases. 3:01:52.800 --> 3:01:56.360 So this is this is kind of the the arc 3:01:56.520 --> 3:01:59.800 of things. Really Trump's Trump's election did respire did did 3:02:00.000 --> 3:02:04.000 for a lot of this growing like oh, these political 3:02:04.080 --> 3:02:07.040 beliefs are acceptable now, right, Like this is something that 3:02:07.240 --> 3:02:09.400 is like we are we are we are allowed to 3:02:09.520 --> 3:02:12.400 do this and that that did echo in Canada and 3:02:12.400 --> 3:02:14.120 across a lot of the a lot of a lot 3:02:14.160 --> 3:02:16.360 of other countries. Um. What what one of one of 3:02:16.400 --> 3:02:19.880 the victims of the of the Quebec Uh massacre his 3:02:20.240 --> 3:02:23.280 his father said that he come to Canada from Algeria 3:02:23.560 --> 3:02:27.920 in the escape terrorism um and he said that like 3:02:28.080 --> 3:02:30.720 Quebec did not create the monster the shooter, but the 3:02:30.840 --> 3:02:35.880 Islamophobia that is inherent inside Quebec gave him like the motive. 3:02:36.240 --> 3:02:39.200 So this is really does relate to connate to like 3:02:39.360 --> 3:02:42.320 the political situation of Canada. And it's very it's it's 3:02:42.360 --> 3:02:44.520 it's not a coincidence that the majority of these types 3:02:44.560 --> 3:02:48.440 of attacks are inside either Quebec, Toronto or um. You know, 3:02:48.600 --> 3:02:50.959 if you're if you're a white, if you're if you're 3:02:51.000 --> 3:02:53.240 in Alberta. It's that it's more tied to like other 3:02:53.440 --> 3:02:56.000 other like conservative values, but like a lot of it 3:02:56.320 --> 3:02:58.640 is around Quebec for a lot of these like shootings 3:02:58.720 --> 3:03:01.480 and all these acts of terrorist them. Um. There was 3:03:01.560 --> 3:03:04.760 like the there was the in celle guy who ran 3:03:04.840 --> 3:03:07.840 over tons of people in in Toronto with his car. Um, 3:03:08.160 --> 3:03:10.040 same same kind of thing of like of getting more 3:03:10.160 --> 3:03:12.240 more used to these kind of having these far right 3:03:12.280 --> 3:03:15.560 ideas be more allowed, um and then thinking them as 3:03:15.600 --> 3:03:19.720 more of like a normalized thing. So that so the 3:03:20.520 --> 3:03:25.080 Quebec mosque shooting, uh kind of well couple a lot 3:03:25.120 --> 3:03:27.480 of people in Canada's being like, oh, we're not immune 3:03:27.520 --> 3:03:29.800 to this. This is like an actual thing that we 3:03:30.160 --> 3:03:33.959 have to deal with. Two. Um. And the next few 3:03:34.000 --> 3:03:38.440 months after Trade's January announcement, border crossings did see an 3:03:38.440 --> 3:03:42.600 increase in Canada formally accepted more immigrants and refugees and 3:03:42.760 --> 3:03:45.840 and no not and there was like the term in 3:03:45.920 --> 3:03:49.280 Canada is like an irregular spike of border crossings. Um. 3:03:49.720 --> 3:03:53.000 The fact the way Canadian media reported this, I think 3:03:53.000 --> 3:03:55.640 it's very irresponsible, the way they tried to like frame 3:03:55.720 --> 3:03:58.119 this as like after this announcement, we're getting so many 3:03:58.120 --> 3:04:01.440 irregular crossings that only few old this type of like 3:04:01.959 --> 3:04:04.800 this type of anti immigrant sentiment. Um. It was. It 3:04:04.959 --> 3:04:06.880 was not really great. A lot of the old articles 3:04:06.920 --> 3:04:08.879 I pulled up for this for like, had really had 3:04:08.920 --> 3:04:13.920 really disgusting framing, especially you know, viewing it now. So 3:04:14.400 --> 3:04:17.600 in March, the Canadian Parliament passed a motion that condemns 3:04:17.680 --> 3:04:20.840 Islamophobia and request that the government recognized the need to 3:04:21.000 --> 3:04:25.320 quell the public of climate of fear and hate specifically 3:04:25.400 --> 3:04:29.480 around Muslims and immigrants. Um. The motion was non binding, 3:04:29.879 --> 3:04:31.800 So it doesn't it doesn't mean anything. It's just the 3:04:31.879 --> 3:04:36.000 government saying something nice. Um. But it's still it's it's 3:04:36.000 --> 3:04:39.800 still sparked tons of outrage. Um. You know. It called 3:04:39.840 --> 3:04:42.320 on the government to condemn Islamophobia and all forms of 3:04:42.640 --> 3:04:47.280 systemic racism and discrimination. Uh. The the margin was passed 3:04:47.360 --> 3:04:49.800 by like it was passed by a margin of like 3:04:49.879 --> 3:04:55.040 two hundred two h two over ninety so people a 3:04:55.120 --> 3:04:57.120 lot of a lot of the Conservatives in Parliament didn't 3:04:57.120 --> 3:05:00.879 didn't like this, but it it's it's garnered so much 3:05:00.920 --> 3:05:03.960 online backlash. There were there were petitions and nationwide protests 3:05:04.080 --> 3:05:07.480 condemning this bill as an attack on free speech um 3:05:08.040 --> 3:05:10.920 and uh. The the person who introduced the bill, um 3:05:11.160 --> 3:05:15.720 uh in an MP named um Akra Khalid, received death 3:05:15.760 --> 3:05:19.400 threats um on through like their email and like they 3:05:19.480 --> 3:05:23.119 had like their private private information leaked. And it turned 3:05:23.120 --> 3:05:25.680 in this very very big kind of one of the 3:05:25.760 --> 3:05:27.880 first things where it had like these like national protests 3:05:27.920 --> 3:05:29.840 in Canada that you know, similar to how we had 3:05:29.840 --> 3:05:31.920 like the free speech thing around to two and seventeen. 3:05:31.920 --> 3:05:33.600 This was like the Canadian version of that and how 3:05:33.680 --> 3:05:37.200 this kind of started. UM. Then in December, Urdeau signed 3:05:37.240 --> 3:05:41.039 into the United Nations Global Migration Pact. There's another non 3:05:41.120 --> 3:05:44.520 binding incentive designed to provide understanding among nations about how 3:05:44.600 --> 3:05:47.440 to deal with the global immigration crisis. Again, all these 3:05:47.480 --> 3:05:49.960 things are just people talking um but it made people 3:05:50.360 --> 3:05:53.600 very very mad because if you're talking about it, that 3:05:53.640 --> 3:05:55.640 means it actually is real and it's actually gonna affect you, 3:05:55.920 --> 3:05:59.879 or it's just ignoring that these problems exist. So really, 3:06:00.120 --> 3:06:02.760 after Trump's election, after the Quebec, after after the Quebec 3:06:02.879 --> 3:06:05.240 Mosque shooting, than we have all these bills. This kind 3:06:05.280 --> 3:06:09.920 of ignited a in person rallying possibility and in person 3:06:10.000 --> 3:06:13.600 protests that Canada hadn't really seen before for this type 3:06:13.640 --> 3:06:17.880 of like anti immigration sentiments. Um, and we'll we'll talk 3:06:17.920 --> 3:06:20.959 more about these protests after after we have a little 3:06:21.080 --> 3:06:23.640 little bit of an ad break. You know, who doesn't 3:06:24.360 --> 3:06:28.080 get protested except for that one time when they illegally 3:06:28.200 --> 3:06:32.360 overthrew the government of Ecuador. Uh, have to be more 3:06:32.520 --> 3:06:36.800 the the That's right, Garrison, our sponsors only one time 3:06:37.000 --> 3:06:44.600 did they cause mass protests as a result of overthrowing 3:06:44.959 --> 3:06:50.720 a sovereign government. That's pretty good, Garrison, Pretty good. Are 3:06:50.760 --> 3:06:52.440 you trying to do like a Banana republic thing? What 3:06:52.720 --> 3:06:55.000 are you? What are you doing? I'm just saying most 3:06:55.200 --> 3:06:59.760 podcasts three to four governments overthrown by their sponsors, all right, 3:07:00.040 --> 3:07:04.120 could happen here? Just the one baby, Hello, welcome to 3:07:04.400 --> 3:07:07.040 Why Canada isn't a liberal utopia and actually has a 3:07:07.120 --> 3:07:09.840 lot of the same systemic problems that every other Western 3:07:09.920 --> 3:07:13.000 country does, and it's not immune to fascist infiltration and 3:07:13.600 --> 3:07:19.879 co option so as so, I know, we we've talked 3:07:19.920 --> 3:07:23.400 a lot abou Quebec and stuff, which is uh great 3:07:23.480 --> 3:07:25.800 because yeah, it is a problem. But this exists in 3:07:25.840 --> 3:07:28.440 the western provinces as well. Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC have a 3:07:28.520 --> 3:07:30.760 lot of these growing kind of things. But they're not 3:07:30.800 --> 3:07:32.800 French Canadians doing this. They're more like you know what 3:07:32.959 --> 3:07:37.680 we in America would you know recognize as like rule conservatives. UM. 3:07:38.360 --> 3:07:41.360 So around all of this, you know, increased discussion around 3:07:41.360 --> 3:07:45.160 immigration in two seventeen UM, around the same time people 3:07:45.200 --> 3:07:47.160 in Western Canada have We're facing a bit of an 3:07:47.200 --> 3:07:50.280 economic recession. They had you know, significant job loss around 3:07:50.320 --> 3:07:53.280 this time UM. And projects that traditionally brought work to 3:07:53.360 --> 3:07:55.720 the area, like pipelines were you know, there was discussion 3:07:55.720 --> 3:07:57.960 of them getting stalled and people you know moving more 3:07:58.000 --> 3:08:00.560 towards renewable energy. This kind of increasing of the political 3:08:00.600 --> 3:08:04.120 tensions between the Eastern you know, liberal majority Canada and 3:08:04.280 --> 3:08:08.840 the western more rule Canada. Um. Quoting an article from 3:08:08.920 --> 3:08:11.800 the CBC, Uh, Trudeau just keeps giving away all of 3:08:11.840 --> 3:08:15.760 our money to immigrants, said Samantha two boy and is 3:08:15.800 --> 3:08:17.800 a that is a French name. I'm not even attempted 3:08:17.879 --> 3:08:23.880 that one. Samantha Frenchie. Anyway, this mother of five, she 3:08:24.040 --> 3:08:27.640 attained a January fifth rally with a Webster, her husband, 3:08:27.720 --> 3:08:30.199 and two of their children. It was her first protest 3:08:30.320 --> 3:08:33.200 for any cause we're stuck paying for all this money 3:08:33.280 --> 3:08:35.600 that he wants to give away to everybody, but Canadians. 3:08:35.920 --> 3:08:37.920 My kids are growing up, and my grandkids and all 3:08:37.959 --> 3:08:39.560 of their kids are going to be poor and stuck 3:08:39.600 --> 3:08:41.040 in a hole that they're never going to get out of. 3:08:42.480 --> 3:08:44.640 This is this is you know, very common type of thing, 3:08:44.840 --> 3:08:47.280 like oh, we're getting taxed and taking all of our 3:08:47.280 --> 3:08:49.560 money and giving giving away to immigrants. This happened after this, 3:08:49.680 --> 3:08:52.560 after the Syrian refugee crisis, when Canada is sort of 3:08:52.600 --> 3:08:55.280 accepting a lot of Syrian immigrants. That's that's around the 3:08:55.280 --> 3:08:59.480 time that I left Canada. Um. But I totally remember people, 3:08:59.560 --> 3:09:03.280 you know, having very similar sentiments of like, why are 3:09:03.320 --> 3:09:06.320 we you know, paying for all of these refugees, you know, 3:09:06.400 --> 3:09:08.800 and and that that that's that's the thing that happens 3:09:08.800 --> 3:09:12.720 in the States too. Yeah. Um. So, the economic tensions 3:09:12.760 --> 3:09:15.920 developing in Western Canada, combined with the increase in anti 3:09:15.920 --> 3:09:19.040 immigration sentiments among conservatives, were in part spurred by the 3:09:19.040 --> 3:09:23.920 Trump presidency led to the Canadian yellow Vest movement. UM. 3:09:24.440 --> 3:09:27.400 This is totally separate from the French protest movement UM. 3:09:27.480 --> 3:09:30.560 The Canadian version just stole like the working class branding, 3:09:31.200 --> 3:09:34.600 just used it for their proto fascist crusade UM. So 3:09:34.720 --> 3:09:39.640 the Canadian yellow Vests were a a group of connected 3:09:39.680 --> 3:09:43.680 protest movements over the course of nineteen that had a 3:09:43.760 --> 3:09:45.480 lot of like in personalities but also a lot of 3:09:45.600 --> 3:09:49.200 online mobilization. It's kind of since died out, but it 3:09:49.360 --> 3:09:52.800 was a major force in pushing right wing extremism in 3:09:52.920 --> 3:09:57.800 Canada and having it be accessible to like regular people, 3:09:57.920 --> 3:10:00.240 right It's it's not It's not like the Proud Boys 3:10:00.240 --> 3:10:01.920 at all, where it's like you know specific you know, 3:10:02.080 --> 3:10:05.120 bad people doing this thing. It was like appealing to like, 3:10:05.240 --> 3:10:08.080 you know, the oil workers, appealing to like the moms. 3:10:08.200 --> 3:10:10.119 It was like it was it was. It was primarily 3:10:10.240 --> 3:10:13.840 used Facebook as a means of passing off this type 3:10:13.840 --> 3:10:17.720 of information and making it seem you know acceptable. Um. 3:10:18.320 --> 3:10:22.080 The Canadian Lovests, quoting an article from Vice UM, Canadian Yelvest, 3:10:22.160 --> 3:10:24.240 which had over a hundred thousand members on their Facebook 3:10:24.280 --> 3:10:29.240 as of May, carries the greatest potential for radicalization leading 3:10:29.280 --> 3:10:31.840 to violence in Canada right now, according to the executive 3:10:31.879 --> 3:10:34.640 director of the Canadian Anti Hate Network uh. The group's 3:10:34.640 --> 3:10:37.480 description says it says it was created to protest the 3:10:37.600 --> 3:10:41.200 carbon tax and build that pipeline and stand against the 3:10:41.280 --> 3:10:43.640 treason of our country's politicians who have the audacity to 3:10:43.720 --> 3:10:47.240 sell our country's sovereignty over to the globalist u N 3:10:47.360 --> 3:10:51.200 and their tyrannical policies. But concerns over Canadian oil sector 3:10:51.240 --> 3:10:54.280 appeared to be a very little factor in the discussion 3:10:54.360 --> 3:10:57.360 that goes on inside these groups. Instead, members are obsessing 3:10:57.440 --> 3:11:00.560 over with the defending you know, Western civilization from Islam, 3:11:01.000 --> 3:11:04.120 bashing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and spreading whatever you know, 3:11:04.160 --> 3:11:06.360 far right conspiracy theory is trending at the time, and 3:11:06.480 --> 3:11:09.360 I cannot overstate the amount that these people hate Trudeau. 3:11:09.680 --> 3:11:12.400 But it's it's not for like reasons because he wore 3:11:12.440 --> 3:11:15.720 black face. Like they find the most bizarre ways to 3:11:15.959 --> 3:11:18.800 hate this man um A lot of these people think 3:11:18.879 --> 3:11:21.960 that Justin Trudeau is the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro. 3:11:22.320 --> 3:11:27.480 This is a this is you look similar. This is 3:11:27.600 --> 3:11:31.760 a very a very popular conspiracy theory in Canada. It 3:11:31.959 --> 3:11:35.519 is like the way that Trudeau is treated by conservatives 3:11:35.600 --> 3:11:38.160 is baffling because like I hate Justin Trudeau, but I 3:11:38.200 --> 3:11:40.680 think I hate him for like reasonable reasons, Like he 3:11:40.760 --> 3:11:43.000 made a lot bunch of promises around you know, environment 3:11:43.040 --> 3:11:46.080 stuff that he didn't follow through on. He doesn't do 3:11:46.200 --> 3:11:48.600 he doesn't do anything he is. He does a lot 3:11:48.680 --> 3:11:52.720 of black face. It's like there's a lot of reasons 3:11:52.800 --> 3:11:55.920 to hate Justin Trudeau, but not because he's the illegitimate 3:11:56.040 --> 3:11:58.720 son of Fidel Castro leading us to like leading trying 3:11:58.760 --> 3:12:01.160 to sneak Canada into with the socialist you end, like 3:12:01.240 --> 3:12:04.080 that's not that's not what he's doing. Like, yeah, he 3:12:04.200 --> 3:12:06.560 was the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro. There's a couple 3:12:06.640 --> 3:12:09.240 of those in the United States. One of his daughters 3:12:09.480 --> 3:12:13.240 is now like a right wing radio personality, and that 3:12:13.360 --> 3:12:17.120 makes so much sense. He you know, he's Castro. He 3:12:17.160 --> 3:12:19.480 did a lot of fucking Like who who would care? 3:12:19.600 --> 3:12:22.039 It's not your your fault, who your dad is. It's 3:12:22.120 --> 3:12:24.800 just like this is it's it's like it's like a weaker, 3:12:25.240 --> 3:12:30.720 like funnier version of Birtherism. Yeah, like it is. It 3:12:30.800 --> 3:12:33.480 makes it It is like the Canadian version of that like, 3:12:35.560 --> 3:12:37.960 it's very weird. He's like Justin Trudeau is very cringe e. 3:12:38.280 --> 3:12:41.360 He lies about all of his promises. Um, he talks 3:12:41.360 --> 3:12:43.320 about game, he does a lot of virtue signaling, he 3:12:43.360 --> 3:12:45.080 does a lot of black face. There's are all really 3:12:45.120 --> 3:12:48.200 good reasons to have a lot of black face. UM, yeah, 3:12:48.240 --> 3:12:51.400 a lot of black face. But the way the ways 3:12:51.440 --> 3:12:53.160 that they come up with trying to make him seem 3:12:53.160 --> 3:12:56.240 like a bad dude just baffling. UM, very very bizarre. 3:12:56.400 --> 3:13:00.120 So UM in an interview with somebody from the Yellows 3:13:00.360 --> 3:13:02.879 Exposed Anti Fascist Research Team, which was a very good 3:13:02.920 --> 3:13:06.560 Twitter account around it's it's it's inactive now, but this 3:13:06.720 --> 3:13:08.640 this was a very good account, a very good account 3:13:08.680 --> 3:13:10.520 that did really really solid research into the into the 3:13:10.560 --> 3:13:13.160 Ellis movement. UM. In an interview, they were asked what 3:13:13.240 --> 3:13:15.120 type of impact they think the elbsts could have in 3:13:15.200 --> 3:13:19.240 Canada and this was this was their response. The image 3:13:19.240 --> 3:13:22.320 of the threat is no longer the skinhead, blooded, blood, 3:13:22.320 --> 3:13:24.560 blood and honor type. We're dealing with average people who 3:13:24.600 --> 3:13:27.240 don't understand the impact of the rhetoric. They're calling for 3:13:27.320 --> 3:13:29.920 the mass death of an entire religion, or they're celebrating 3:13:29.920 --> 3:13:32.440 them or they're celebrating the violence against that religion, or 3:13:32.480 --> 3:13:35.680 they're celebrating violence against government officials. They are just one 3:13:35.760 --> 3:13:38.440 step away from outright fascism, but they can't see that, 3:13:38.600 --> 3:13:41.200 and they refuse to see that, which I think it's 3:13:41.320 --> 3:13:44.440 very is a very good UM summary of like how 3:13:44.800 --> 3:13:50.119 the yellow vests were a popular movement specifically on Facebook. Um. 3:13:50.959 --> 3:13:54.960 Another part of it was the idea of like Western separatism. Um. Like, 3:13:55.120 --> 3:13:57.360 you know, the people in Western Canada feel ignored, They 3:13:57.440 --> 3:13:59.840 feel you know, put upon, They feel oppressed not just 3:14:00.000 --> 3:14:02.560 for feeling not not just for being Westerners, but they 3:14:02.680 --> 3:14:05.959 honestly feel oppressed because they're white. They feel like, oh, 3:14:06.040 --> 3:14:08.440 we're focusing on you know, only gonna give money to 3:14:08.760 --> 3:14:11.040 the brown people. That's the kind of thing that they 3:14:11.080 --> 3:14:14.080 feel like in the West. Um, they're like, well, you know, 3:14:14.280 --> 3:14:16.160 my right to free speech was taken away because of 3:14:16.240 --> 3:14:19.400 the because of the non binding bill, and refugees can 3:14:19.440 --> 3:14:21.280 just walk across the border and they make more money 3:14:21.320 --> 3:14:23.040 than I do. So they they have they have all 3:14:23.040 --> 3:14:25.360 these all these ideas that are not actually based in reality, 3:14:25.560 --> 3:14:27.760 but they can believe them. Um. And they you know, 3:14:27.840 --> 3:14:30.040 find these new sources that are just echo chambers that 3:14:30.080 --> 3:14:33.000 reinforce this belief to the point where they they become 3:14:33.959 --> 3:14:37.720 radicalize themselves. UM. It's very it's a very very common thing, 3:14:37.800 --> 3:14:40.240 especially around twenties nineteen. I was tracking a lot of 3:14:40.240 --> 3:14:42.560 these Facebook groups around twenty nine as well, just in 3:14:42.680 --> 3:14:45.440 my spare time, UM, because it's just interesting to watch 3:14:45.520 --> 3:14:49.440 them interact. UM. I'm gonna give like, you know, like 3:14:49.680 --> 3:14:53.240 a brief recap of like a typical yell yellow best 3:14:53.280 --> 3:14:56.720 protest around like Edmonton UM, based a bit off of 3:14:57.280 --> 3:14:59.480 of of of a few CBC articles, So you know, 3:15:00.040 --> 3:15:03.240 testers would gather around in front of UM like the 3:15:04.080 --> 3:15:08.480 legislative building, holding signs, wearing bright yellow vests. UM. And 3:15:08.520 --> 3:15:11.640 they would do this like basically every every weekend for 3:15:11.840 --> 3:15:14.280 you know, months and months and months on end. UM. 3:15:14.440 --> 3:15:17.080 Some protesters when we stand at the podium showing conspiracy 3:15:17.120 --> 3:15:20.000 theories about how powerful the Jewish families controlling the world 3:15:20.080 --> 3:15:22.760 are UM, as one as one dude did at the 3:15:22.840 --> 3:15:29.000 Alberta Legislature UM on like January. UM. Some may come 3:15:29.120 --> 3:15:34.400 sporting red make Alberta great again. Hats uh. This was 3:15:34.600 --> 3:15:39.199 very very popular, very popular. UM. Others may proud the sidelines, 3:15:39.200 --> 3:15:41.160 stress like they belong to a biker gang. Um. Instead 3:15:41.160 --> 3:15:43.640 of only instead of Hell's Angels patches, they have patries 3:15:43.680 --> 3:15:49.000 that say Wolves of Odin and Canadian Infidels. Uh. I'm 3:15:49.000 --> 3:15:51.200 gonna give you one, guests, what type of ideology the 3:15:51.440 --> 3:15:58.080 Wolves of Odin have? Yeah, the the communists, Yeah, no, 3:15:58.200 --> 3:16:01.600 they're not season Um. But most of the protesters voices 3:16:01.640 --> 3:16:03.959 are not away from like, are not from the fringes. 3:16:04.000 --> 3:16:06.560 Most of them just have jobs, um, you know, you 3:16:06.640 --> 3:16:08.959 know in like high rises, or they drive it for Uber, 3:16:09.160 --> 3:16:11.800 or their teachers or pipe fitters or real estate agents. 3:16:12.560 --> 3:16:15.120 And although their message is like muddled by all of 3:16:15.160 --> 3:16:17.640 these other like you know, much more overtly extremist kind 3:16:17.640 --> 3:16:19.920 of talking points, they all have one thing in common 3:16:20.000 --> 3:16:21.840 that they feel like they're getting ignored and being left 3:16:21.879 --> 3:16:25.160 behind by the liberals in the east. UM. This is 3:16:25.200 --> 3:16:27.320 echoed by one of the person they got interviewed at 3:16:27.320 --> 3:16:29.800 these rallies was named Lynn Smith, who was a former 3:16:30.400 --> 3:16:33.200 oil and gas worker who now works in the school system. UM. 3:16:33.640 --> 3:16:35.840 They were at a a yellow vest rally on in 3:16:35.959 --> 3:16:41.280 January that was like the fourth first fourth protester she attended. UM. 3:16:41.440 --> 3:16:44.160 She said, they're just giving away our country. We have 3:16:44.280 --> 3:16:47.240 no rights anymore. They're taking them away. No more Lord's prayer. 3:16:47.320 --> 3:16:50.880 But they're putting prayer prayer rooms in schools for Muslims. Um, 3:16:51.120 --> 3:16:52.960 marry Christmas. You're you're You're not. You're not allowed to 3:16:52.959 --> 3:16:55.520 say anymore. It's supposed to be happy holidays. They're changing, 3:16:55.560 --> 3:16:57.240 they're changing our country, and we've got to stand up 3:16:57.240 --> 3:16:59.720 and say something about it, because because this is our 3:16:59.760 --> 3:17:01.920 count tree, I was born here, my parents are born here. 3:17:02.000 --> 3:17:05.640 It's wrong. So you know, I'm sure people in the 3:17:05.680 --> 3:17:08.760 States are familiar with this type of rhetoric. Um, but 3:17:09.120 --> 3:17:12.600 the the increased nature of in Canada was surprising to 3:17:12.680 --> 3:17:14.480 a lot of Canadians and like president of a lot 3:17:14.520 --> 3:17:17.600 of like liberal Canadians, because they're like, but you're you're 3:17:17.640 --> 3:17:19.520 in Canada. Why are you doing the States thing? Why? 3:17:19.600 --> 3:17:20.840 Why are you doing the thing that they do in 3:17:20.879 --> 3:17:23.320 the States. Why are you doing it here? Um? But 3:17:23.400 --> 3:17:24.920 you know, the same reason you know people do in 3:17:25.000 --> 3:17:27.240 the States is because they feel ignored by politicians, you know, 3:17:27.320 --> 3:17:30.760 saying that's that's why this happens in Saskatchewan and Alberta 3:17:31.440 --> 3:17:34.039 NBC way more than it happens in like Ontario, right, 3:17:34.200 --> 3:17:36.520 is because you know, the more farther away you are from, 3:17:36.600 --> 3:17:39.160 you know, the big cities, the less your interests are 3:17:39.240 --> 3:17:41.160 cared for by a lot of politicians. So the ones 3:17:41.200 --> 3:17:43.040 that speak to you are these like extremists who are 3:17:43.040 --> 3:17:46.119 trying to pray on these actual you know, financial insecurities. 3:17:46.760 --> 3:17:49.640 Um so A lot some of the protesters say that 3:17:49.640 --> 3:17:52.280 they're not like a post immigration but but most of 3:17:52.360 --> 3:17:54.880 the focus of the Edmonton Yellow Best rallies has been 3:17:55.240 --> 3:17:57.000 has been about who can come into the country and 3:17:57.040 --> 3:18:00.040 how they're allowed to get here. Um one one I 3:18:00.240 --> 3:18:03.120 named Brett Webster, the father of five for works like 3:18:03.520 --> 3:18:07.160 contruction construction industry, says they're overwhelming our resources. We can't 3:18:07.160 --> 3:18:08.760 properly let these people and make sure it's safe for 3:18:08.840 --> 3:18:10.560 them to come in and make sure that they're skilled 3:18:10.600 --> 3:18:12.800 and assimilate into our country and know our ways and 3:18:12.879 --> 3:18:16.680 our values. So most of the extremest stuff in Canada 3:18:16.720 --> 3:18:19.920 outside of Quebec does come from does come specifically from Alberta. 3:18:20.360 --> 3:18:22.200 You know, the big big cities in Alberta are our 3:18:22.480 --> 3:18:24.880 Calgary and Edmonton. This happens also in a lot of 3:18:24.959 --> 3:18:27.440 the more rural areas that you know, mostly used to 3:18:27.520 --> 3:18:31.600 run on like oil drilling. UM After losing an election 3:18:31.680 --> 3:18:36.120 to the more social democratic NDP party. Uh, the two 3:18:36.200 --> 3:18:39.280 provincial Conservative parties in Alberta had their own little mini 3:18:39.920 --> 3:18:42.880 Unite the Right and merged together in to US in seventeen, 3:18:43.360 --> 3:18:45.760 leading to their success in the polls in ten. So 3:18:45.959 --> 3:18:48.360 then the Conservatives have since then, they've done a whole 3:18:48.360 --> 3:18:51.320 bunch of stuff in Alberta, like cutting down their health 3:18:51.360 --> 3:18:52.760 care to actually a lot of a lot of the 3:18:52.760 --> 3:18:55.560 Conservative voters don't like, but like they voted for because 3:18:55.560 --> 3:18:58.080 that was the platform. You just were being scared of 3:18:58.120 --> 3:19:00.360 brown people, so you voted for the Conservatives. Now, but 3:19:00.440 --> 3:19:04.680 now your healthcare is cut. So that's that's how politics works. Um. 3:19:05.320 --> 3:19:06.880 So that that's kind of a brief summary of the 3:19:06.920 --> 3:19:08.960 Yellow US movement and how it how it gained a 3:19:09.000 --> 3:19:12.039 lot of popularity. Um. They they would do rallies around 3:19:12.080 --> 3:19:14.120 like polling centers. They would they would they would they 3:19:14.160 --> 3:19:17.600 would attack people. They would have you know, violent rallies 3:19:17.640 --> 3:19:20.120 where a lot of like older, older men who were 3:19:20.160 --> 3:19:22.720 in the Yellows movement would be you know, pretty violent 3:19:22.840 --> 3:19:26.160 towards you know, and anyone in their area during a protest. Um. 3:19:27.280 --> 3:19:31.039 But they kind of kind of around COVID, the Yellow 3:19:31.080 --> 3:19:33.960 Vess kind of sput it out. A lot of the 3:19:33.959 --> 3:19:36.360 people in these Facebook groups got you know, moved into 3:19:36.480 --> 3:19:39.920 other conspiracy theory groups um, and the LLOS movement kind 3:19:39.920 --> 3:19:42.200 of lost its train. UM. So that's where we're kind 3:19:42.200 --> 3:19:44.400 of going to end for today, is with the kind 3:19:44.440 --> 3:19:47.280 of the LLOSS kind of fizzling out, and then the 3:19:47.360 --> 3:19:50.080 next part we'll talk about what's happening from like en 3:19:50.480 --> 3:19:52.640 and the election that year took like kind of the 3:19:52.760 --> 3:19:58.160 present fascist rumblings um inside different sectors of Canadian politics. 3:19:58.320 --> 3:20:01.080 So yeah, that is that's my that's my very very 3:20:01.160 --> 3:20:05.640 brief right up of of right wing populism and extremism 3:20:05.720 --> 3:20:13.720 in Canada. Yep, it's fun. It's not fun. It's it's 3:20:13.760 --> 3:20:17.160 it's it's it's upsetting um, and it's you know, it's 3:20:17.160 --> 3:20:18.720 a lot of the same problems we have here of 3:20:18.840 --> 3:20:22.160 you know, politicians really ignoring people in certain parts of 3:20:22.160 --> 3:20:26.120 the country which provide provide very fertile recruiting ground for 3:20:26.200 --> 3:20:28.640 a lot of extremists. I think it's going to all 3:20:28.800 --> 3:20:33.480 end well. That is our that is our that is 3:20:33.520 --> 3:20:37.920 our official policy that everything is going to turn out great. Yeah, 3:20:38.000 --> 3:20:40.440 it seems fine. I mean there's like there is actual 3:20:40.520 --> 3:20:42.240 ways of preventing this are happening, right, It's not it's 3:20:42.360 --> 3:20:44.400 it's not a hopeless thing. We can actually do it 3:20:44.520 --> 3:20:47.160 if we want to. Just people with power to do it, 3:20:48.040 --> 3:20:51.879 don't don't don't like doing it. Yeah, well and good 3:20:52.720 --> 3:20:55.240 that is the message of the pod, Sophie cool and good. 3:20:57.480 --> 3:21:02.760 So yep, that's that's Canadian fascism one cool. Um. I 3:21:02.800 --> 3:21:04.640 would recommend if people want to learn more about the 3:21:04.840 --> 3:21:08.720 Canadian uh yellow vests, check out the yellow Best Exposed 3:21:08.760 --> 3:21:12.240 Twitter account. Uh. There's also like there's also articles about them. 3:21:12.320 --> 3:21:17.120 They were a very a very good anti fascist research team. Um. Yeah, 3:21:17.120 --> 3:21:18.800 I would just recommend if you want to learn more 3:21:18.800 --> 3:21:20.760 about this the specific movement, all of their work on 3:21:20.840 --> 3:21:24.640 it has been great. Um. So yeah, shout out, shout 3:21:24.680 --> 3:21:30.880 out to Yellow Vests Exposed. That's the pod. Alright, Well 3:21:31.400 --> 3:21:34.320 go get your Tim Hortons and tomorrow, Yeah, I go 3:21:34.400 --> 3:21:36.840 get your Tim Horton's and you're I don't know, maple 3:21:36.879 --> 3:21:43.440 syrup and go find a moose Fozon Media or happen 3:21:43.520 --> 3:21:48.320 here pot on, the twits and the inst against Bye 3:21:48.360 --> 3:21:59.280 bye everybody, a goodbye A A adoption of teams from 3:21:59.320 --> 3:22:01.840 Foster Care, the topic not enough people know about, and 3:22:01.959 --> 3:22:04.640 we're here to change that. I'm April Dinuity, host of 3:22:04.680 --> 3:22:08.520 the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. 3:22:08.680 --> 3:22:12.440 Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told 3:22:12.480 --> 3:22:14.960 by the families that lived them, with commentary from experts. 3:22:15.400 --> 3:22:19.080 Visit adopt us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe 3:22:19.120 --> 3:22:22.440 to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to 3:22:22.520 --> 3:22:24.199 you by the U. S Department of Health, the Human 3:22:24.240 --> 3:22:27.320 Services Administration for Children and Families, and the ACT Council. 3:22:27.800 --> 3:22:30.800 I'm Tanya Sam, host of the Money Moves Podcast powered 3:22:30.840 --> 3:22:33.640 by Greenwood. This daily podcast will help give you the 3:22:33.760 --> 3:22:37.080 keys to the Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance 3:22:37.200 --> 3:22:42.160 with celebrity guests like Rick Ross, Amanda Sill's, angela Ye Roland, Martin, J. B. Smooth, 3:22:42.200 --> 3:22:44.400 and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn 3:22:44.480 --> 3:22:48.640 liabilities into assets and make your money moves up, good boy. 3:22:50.160 --> 3:22:52.920 Subscribe to The Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on 3:22:52.959 --> 3:22:55.840 the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts, 3:22:56.120 --> 3:23:03.760 and make sure you leave a review. Hi. Hello, Nope, 3:23:03.840 --> 3:23:11.520 that's not it. That's it. Garrison episode has begun it 3:23:11.680 --> 3:23:15.600 cannot be unbegun. A let's let's roll right into it. 3:23:15.680 --> 3:23:20.040 Let's talk so well, welcome this says it could happen here. 3:23:20.240 --> 3:23:24.400 Um today the today, the here is is Canada, that 3:23:24.560 --> 3:23:26.960 is the that is where it could happen. Um. This 3:23:27.080 --> 3:23:28.720 is gonna be part two of my little deep dive 3:23:29.120 --> 3:23:32.000 into Canadian fascism and the far right rumblings in general 3:23:32.440 --> 3:23:34.720 in the Great White North. And oh god, that is 3:23:34.800 --> 3:23:38.440 a bad, bad nickname for Canada, the Great White North, 3:23:39.400 --> 3:23:45.000 not inaccurate. Did not really think that went through? Oopsie doodle. 3:23:45.879 --> 3:23:51.240 Maybe the Yeah, there's a good chance anyway. Um. The 3:23:51.360 --> 3:23:55.520 last episode we left off with the Canadian yellow vests, um, 3:23:55.640 --> 3:23:58.320 and you know of frightening increase in Islamophobia and anti 3:23:58.320 --> 3:24:03.359 immigration rhetoric around late seventeen and eighteen after Trump selection. 3:24:03.920 --> 3:24:06.600 And we started the last episode by talking about one 3:24:06.680 --> 3:24:10.520 of Canada's first fascist political parties. And we're gonna start 3:24:10.640 --> 3:24:14.680 part two but talking about Canada's new neo fascist political 3:24:14.760 --> 3:24:17.800 party that also got started inside the province of Quebec 3:24:18.400 --> 3:24:21.200 just like the National Unity Party did. Uh. This one 3:24:21.360 --> 3:24:25.960 is called the People's Party of Canada. Um. Before we 3:24:26.040 --> 3:24:28.120 get into the People's Party and first to give some 3:24:28.200 --> 3:24:32.160 background on the founder of the party, Maxine Bernier. Um. 3:24:32.240 --> 3:24:34.800 And that's how that's that's how I'm gonna say his name. Um, 3:24:35.080 --> 3:24:39.280 No one at me, it's good enough. Um. Bernair was 3:24:39.360 --> 3:24:41.600 born in Quebec in nineteen sixty three and is the 3:24:41.720 --> 3:24:45.480 son of a conservative talk radio host turned politician. Isn't 3:24:45.480 --> 3:24:52.199 that funny? Isn't that funny? How that keeps happening? Um? Yeah, 3:24:52.320 --> 3:24:56.600 So Bernair entered politics into US in six um he 3:24:56.760 --> 3:24:58.800 ran as the Conservative Party candidate for the House of 3:24:58.959 --> 3:25:01.520 Commons in the same writing district that his father had 3:25:01.560 --> 3:25:05.480 represented in the eighties and nineties. Stephen Harper, leader of 3:25:05.520 --> 3:25:09.000 the new United Conservative Party, initially wanted Maxine's father to 3:25:09.120 --> 3:25:12.560 re enter politics, but Bernair Senior was less keen on 3:25:12.600 --> 3:25:15.960 that idea, and instead told Harper that he that perhaps 3:25:16.040 --> 3:25:19.560 his son should run in his place. Radio and nepotism, 3:25:19.879 --> 3:25:25.520 radio and nepotism, yep, and politicians and yeah it is 3:25:25.640 --> 3:25:28.560 it is starting great. Um. So at this point Bernair 3:25:28.680 --> 3:25:32.760 was more like a free market libertarian, libertarian type guy, 3:25:33.280 --> 3:25:35.320 you know, still with some of the same like conservative 3:25:35.840 --> 3:25:38.560 immigration stuff that's that's common in Quebec, but he was 3:25:38.640 --> 3:25:42.080 more of just like a libertarian dude. Bernair easily won 3:25:42.360 --> 3:25:44.880 the writing writings of what we call districts here in 3:25:44.959 --> 3:25:48.560 the States, ranking at sixty seven percent of the popular vote, 3:25:48.600 --> 3:25:52.240 which was the largest majority for a Conservative politician outside 3:25:52.280 --> 3:25:54.640 of the province of Alberta. So he he did, he 3:25:54.760 --> 3:25:57.680 did very well. Bernair, who had a background in business, 3:25:57.920 --> 3:26:00.800 quickly rose through the ranks of the Conservative Party. Within 3:26:00.879 --> 3:26:02.920 the same year he was appointed to be a cabinet 3:26:02.920 --> 3:26:05.720 minister in the Harper government. Um and he worked as 3:26:05.800 --> 3:26:08.400 a as an industry minister from to us in six 3:26:08.520 --> 3:26:11.160 to US and seven before being promoted to a foreign 3:26:11.160 --> 3:26:13.960 affairs minister, and then in two thousand eleven he was 3:26:14.000 --> 3:26:16.840 appointed of. He was appointed as Minister of the State. 3:26:18.360 --> 3:26:22.200 So in in spring of sixteen, after the fifth after 3:26:22.240 --> 3:26:26.040 the federal election, uh Brena Air put in his bid 3:26:26.200 --> 3:26:29.600 to be the new elected Conservative Party leader. UM So, 3:26:30.280 --> 3:26:33.280 I'm gonna briefly explain how Canadian elections work. You You 3:26:33.400 --> 3:26:36.640 don't vote for a prime minister. You vote for a 3:26:36.800 --> 3:26:40.840 party within your specific district if you if if your 3:26:40.879 --> 3:26:43.720 party wins, they get a seat in parliament. Whoever has 3:26:43.760 --> 3:26:47.240 the most seats in parliament, that's whose prime minister gets elected, 3:26:47.440 --> 3:26:49.959 so whoever is whoever is the leader of the party, 3:26:50.240 --> 3:26:52.720 they will be prime minister if that party gets the 3:26:52.760 --> 3:26:56.200 most seats. So in tow us in sixteen, burn Air 3:26:56.240 --> 3:26:59.080 put in his bid to be the new Conservative Party leader. 3:26:59.520 --> 3:27:02.880 Uh he got remarkably close to securing the spot as 3:27:03.000 --> 3:27:05.680 leader of the Conservatives. In the final round of voting, 3:27:06.000 --> 3:27:09.119 he received forty nine point zero five percent of the vote, 3:27:10.040 --> 3:27:13.920 losing to Saskatchewan Conservative politician Andrew Shear, who got fifty 3:27:14.000 --> 3:27:18.199 point nine percent, so less less than two percent difference. 3:27:18.360 --> 3:27:20.640 He was so close to the comic leader of the 3:27:20.680 --> 3:27:26.360 Conservative Party, like ridiculous. So yeah, after his extremely slight loss, 3:27:26.480 --> 3:27:29.120 he continued to work in Shear's Conservative Party for a 3:27:29.200 --> 3:27:32.080 few years. Um, if you remember from the last episode, 3:27:32.120 --> 3:27:35.320 Around this time was when these lamophobia and anti immigration 3:27:35.400 --> 3:27:38.200 talking points were starting to gain a new popularity, and 3:27:38.320 --> 3:27:41.480 Berner followed along with this trend. He would tweet out 3:27:41.480 --> 3:27:46.040 about the dangers of extreme multiculturalism and he had like 3:27:46.080 --> 3:27:49.320 an increasingly racist and divisive rhetoric and that kind of 3:27:49.440 --> 3:27:54.560 caused some drama within the Conservative establishment. So in August 3:27:54.680 --> 3:27:57.680 of eighteen, around the same time, the yellow vest movement 3:27:57.800 --> 3:28:01.920 in Canada was starting up. Berner resigned from the Conservative 3:28:01.959 --> 3:28:05.279 Party with the stated intention of forming a new federal 3:28:05.480 --> 3:28:09.360 populist far right political party. Um here here, here's a 3:28:09.440 --> 3:28:12.600 segment from his resignation speech and he he does talk 3:28:12.640 --> 3:28:14.920 in a very thick French accent. I'm not going to 3:28:15.040 --> 3:28:25.840 do that. Um yeah, you're you're channel the energy. Um 3:28:28.920 --> 3:28:34.200 that was that was just direct audio. That was instead 3:28:34.240 --> 3:28:37.240 of leading as a principal Conservative and defending the interests 3:28:37.320 --> 3:28:41.080 of Canada and Canadians. Andrew sheer is following the Trudeau Liberals. 3:28:41.520 --> 3:28:43.480 I was told that internal polling is showing that the 3:28:43.560 --> 3:28:46.800 Liberals response to Trump is popular and that in six months, 3:28:46.840 --> 3:28:49.720 if the polls change, the party's stand may change to 3:28:50.360 --> 3:28:52.640 the same thing happened in reaction to my tweets on 3:28:52.760 --> 3:28:56.040 diversity and multiculturalism. This is another crucial debate for the 3:28:56.160 --> 3:28:58.800 future of our country. Do we want to emphasize or 3:28:58.840 --> 3:29:01.879 ethnic and religious dif princes or exploit them to buy 3:29:02.000 --> 3:29:05.080 votes as the Liberals are doing, or emphasize what unites 3:29:05.160 --> 3:29:08.320 us and the values that can guarantee social cohesion. Just 3:29:08.440 --> 3:29:11.160 like other Western societies grappling with this issue. A large 3:29:11.240 --> 3:29:14.080 number of Canadians and certainly the vast majority of Conservatives 3:29:14.320 --> 3:29:16.400 are worried that we are heading in the wrong direction. 3:29:16.600 --> 3:29:21.240 But it's not to raise such questions. So yeah, and 3:29:21.520 --> 3:29:23.520 I think the honestly one of the main reasons why 3:29:24.520 --> 3:29:29.240 Brenaire hasn't been super successful UM is because of his 3:29:29.320 --> 3:29:35.920 accent like he is. It's harder for Protestant white Canadians 3:29:36.280 --> 3:29:40.400 to support him because he talks with a French Canadian accent. Um. 3:29:40.720 --> 3:29:43.680 If if if he talked in like good English, I 3:29:43.800 --> 3:29:47.160 think he would have he would have won Conservative leadership 3:29:47.560 --> 3:29:50.280 UM and his Populist party would be way more popular 3:29:50.320 --> 3:29:53.720 than than than it is now. So critical support to 3:29:55.320 --> 3:29:59.120 other French racism is preventing the racist from being racist enough. Yes, 3:29:59.560 --> 3:30:04.400 you love love to see it. You certainly see it. 3:30:05.040 --> 3:30:08.520 We do, we do see it. So Brenner faced some 3:30:08.600 --> 3:30:12.200 pushback from his conservative colleagues, including Stephen Harper U, of 3:30:12.320 --> 3:30:14.560 trying to divide the right and split the right of 3:30:14.680 --> 3:30:19.160 center vote. UM and some of the less socially conservative 3:30:19.200 --> 3:30:22.960 members of the main Conservative Party decried Berner's departure and 3:30:23.000 --> 3:30:25.480 subsequent New People's Party as just a plain attempt to 3:30:25.560 --> 3:30:30.240 pander to xenophobia and racist right wingers. But Berner went 3:30:30.400 --> 3:30:32.960 right to work and ran enough candidates under his new 3:30:33.040 --> 3:30:36.119 party to secure a spot in the federal election debates 3:30:36.160 --> 3:30:39.120 that were like that, you know how we watch presidential debates, 3:30:39.280 --> 3:30:41.280 same thing, but these have you know, multiple candidates because 3:30:41.280 --> 3:30:43.640 there are multiple parties, the same thing. But basically he 3:30:44.440 --> 3:30:47.440 was able to get in the televised debates. Um, the PPC, 3:30:47.879 --> 3:30:49.480 which is the People's Party of Canada. I'm just gonna 3:30:49.520 --> 3:30:52.000 say the PPC now because it sounds funny. Um. They 3:30:52.040 --> 3:30:54.800 started going viral on the internet after pictures of massive 3:30:54.840 --> 3:30:58.520 billboards with Brenner's face and big text that said say 3:30:58.680 --> 3:31:01.720 no to massimmigration. This this this guy very is this 3:31:01.840 --> 3:31:07.720 guy very Mimi around like these big, these big PPC billboards. Um, 3:31:08.440 --> 3:31:10.200 I'm gonna I'm gonna read a bit from a write 3:31:10.240 --> 3:31:13.360 up and it's going down by some local um Montreal 3:31:13.480 --> 3:31:17.720 anti fascists. There have been suggestions that the PPC spokesperson 3:31:17.760 --> 3:31:21.000 and architect of its public relations strategy, Martin Mass, has 3:31:21.040 --> 3:31:23.640 been key to its embrace of the far right. Mass 3:31:23.720 --> 3:31:26.960 was owner of the publisher of the Capucua Libre, which 3:31:27.080 --> 3:31:29.480 is an online libertarian news outlet that shut down in 3:31:29.920 --> 3:31:34.240 six and that pp but that PPC's cozy relationship with 3:31:34.360 --> 3:31:36.880 racists primarily due to the influence of this one person 3:31:37.040 --> 3:31:41.200 is highly doubtful. However, that's the PPC is positioning itself 3:31:41.360 --> 3:31:43.240 as the option of choice for those who find the 3:31:43.280 --> 3:31:47.240 Conservative Party insufficiently right wing. Racism is clearly just one 3:31:47.240 --> 3:31:50.320 of the most effective tools for such a strategy, witnessing 3:31:50.360 --> 3:31:54.200 PPC billboards and tweets against mass immigration, also tweets about 3:31:54.240 --> 3:31:58.480 being against Antifa and Bernard's diet tribe about radical Islam 3:31:58.560 --> 3:32:00.879 being the biggest threat to freedom and peace and security 3:32:00.879 --> 3:32:03.600 in the world today, and how he complains about other 3:32:03.720 --> 3:32:07.920 parties are are complacent and pandering to Islamists, and promising 3:32:07.959 --> 3:32:11.000 that the PPC will make no compromise with the tolitarian ideology. 3:32:11.760 --> 3:32:14.120 A number of media articles have revealed the far right 3:32:14.160 --> 3:32:17.800 connections to people active in the PPC as organizers and 3:32:17.959 --> 3:32:20.720 members whose signatures were used for the PPC to gain 3:32:20.840 --> 3:32:24.560 official party status. Um for instance, a Derek Horne, the 3:32:24.640 --> 3:32:28.320 PPC volunteer and a security agent who accompanied Bernair at 3:32:28.480 --> 3:32:31.200 a variety of events and media interviews. He has been 3:32:31.280 --> 3:32:33.680 revealed to be a founding member of the neo fascist 3:32:33.760 --> 3:32:36.520 Canadian Nationalist Party, which we we briefly mentioned in the 3:32:36.600 --> 3:32:40.760 last episode. UM. Sean Walker is an American immigrant and 3:32:40.920 --> 3:32:44.160 organizer with the PPC in St. Catharine's UM, as well 3:32:44.160 --> 3:32:45.400 as one of the people who as signed on for 3:32:45.440 --> 3:32:47.520 PPC to be an official party. He was revealed to 3:32:47.560 --> 3:32:50.160 be the president of the National Alliance US based in 3:32:50.200 --> 3:32:55.520 the not the organization seven. He was also convicted. He 3:32:55.640 --> 3:32:57.400 was also convicted of hate crimes at the time for 3:32:57.480 --> 3:33:00.640 violence stands People of Color UM. Following these latian's Walker 3:33:00.680 --> 3:33:03.760 was expelled from the PPC and Bernard claimed that he'd 3:33:03.760 --> 3:33:06.480 slipped through the party's betting process. However, was also revealed 3:33:06.560 --> 3:33:11.080 that Bernar follows him on Twitter UM. Others who signed 3:33:11.160 --> 3:33:12.800 up for the for the PPC to be an official 3:33:12.879 --> 3:33:16.400 party include Janice Balch, a founding member of the Patriotic 3:33:16.480 --> 3:33:22.560 Europeans Against the Islamification of Accent and also Justin L. Smith, 3:33:22.760 --> 3:33:25.520 leader of this of the Sudbury chapter of the Soldiers 3:33:25.560 --> 3:33:28.400 of Odin. So a whole bunch of whole bunch of 3:33:28.440 --> 3:33:31.280 fascist people are working work working for the party UM 3:33:31.600 --> 3:33:34.240 and unsurprisingly a number of a number of candidates have 3:33:34.320 --> 3:33:36.560 made headlines. But there as there you know social media 3:33:36.640 --> 3:33:41.199 posts from the past and present have surfaced featuring like racism, islamaphobia, 3:33:41.640 --> 3:33:44.400 and a lot of spreading of far right conspiracy theories. 3:33:44.520 --> 3:33:46.480 You know that was just kind of common. There's too many, 3:33:46.560 --> 3:33:49.960 honestly to mention. Um. And it's it's not just that 3:33:50.040 --> 3:33:51.920 the PPC has a few bad apples in it. It's 3:33:51.959 --> 3:33:53.879 like the whole the whole party is rife with these 3:33:53.959 --> 3:33:56.920 kind of one of these kind of sentiments. Um. One 3:33:57.040 --> 3:33:59.200 gauge of this and the sign and a sign that 3:33:59.280 --> 3:34:01.920 like this is intentional is the as looking at the 3:34:01.959 --> 3:34:04.320 candidates who have left the party or have been kicked out. 3:34:04.640 --> 3:34:07.240 When it became clear that there would be no condemnation 3:34:07.320 --> 3:34:10.280 of the far right from the upper ranks, there was 3:34:10.360 --> 3:34:13.920 like and and justin like twenty nineteen alone, there was 3:34:14.000 --> 3:34:16.920 like three candidates who were who left or were either 3:34:17.000 --> 3:34:20.880 kicked out um because they you know, had objections to 3:34:20.959 --> 3:34:24.240 the racism rampant within the party. They were like complaining about, hey, 3:34:24.320 --> 3:34:26.039 these guys stem of racist and then they were kicked 3:34:26.040 --> 3:34:28.360 out of the party or or or or they left. 3:34:29.040 --> 3:34:33.960 So yeah, that's that's a not a good problem to have. UM. 3:34:35.160 --> 3:34:37.920 So in in uh, finishing up this, this little quote 3:34:37.959 --> 3:34:42.160 here um. Indeed, a cursory accursory look at the Facebook 3:34:42.160 --> 3:34:45.240 pages of PPC candidates reveals what's been really noteworthy is 3:34:45.320 --> 3:34:48.879 how selective the news stories about racist tweets or Facebook 3:34:48.920 --> 3:34:51.800 posts have been. Almost every PPC candidate in Quebec has 3:34:52.040 --> 3:34:56.000 recently in repeatedly shared articles from climate denialist sources, including 3:34:56.040 --> 3:35:00.040 many with a conspiratorial bent. A candidate for Path and 3:35:00.160 --> 3:35:03.080 You even produced his own YouTube expose revealing how George 3:35:03.080 --> 3:35:06.440 Sorrows it's behind an international global conspiracy theory to crash 3:35:06.480 --> 3:35:09.800 economies and make money spending a panic about climate change. 3:35:10.360 --> 3:35:12.959 Secondary to climate denial, there's a lot of fears around 3:35:13.000 --> 3:35:16.400 free speech and mass immigration, which are both recurring themes 3:35:16.440 --> 3:35:19.640 in the PPC candidates, and roughly one in five have 3:35:19.760 --> 3:35:22.800 recently shared news articles from what we would deem a 3:35:22.959 --> 3:35:26.880 national populist or full right sources, including less manchetz dot com, 3:35:26.959 --> 3:35:29.280 which is the website of the French language of the 3:35:29.400 --> 3:35:34.280 French language translator of the Christ Church Um Manifesto UM, 3:35:34.760 --> 3:35:36.560 and that that the guy who had the website is 3:35:36.560 --> 3:35:39.959 also involved with organizing in the Montreal in the Montreal 3:35:40.120 --> 3:35:44.120 chapter of the Yellow Bests. UM. Yeah. So he he 3:35:44.240 --> 3:35:47.840 both translated the manifesto and he's also running the Montreal 3:35:48.160 --> 3:35:51.720 yellowst movement. So that's fun. Um, it's not fun, it's bad, um, 3:35:52.120 --> 3:35:58.400 andre Pytree pipe pood Wow. So you remember, So I 3:35:58.480 --> 3:36:00.720 didn't learn French in Canada because I was in a 3:36:00.800 --> 3:36:03.600 weird Christian private school. Otherwise I could be a lot 3:36:03.680 --> 3:36:09.119 better at this job. But anyway, there's there's a there's 3:36:09.160 --> 3:36:11.520 a there's a there's just like a far right YouTube channel. 3:36:12.160 --> 3:36:16.280 But this guy called uh Studio who a lot of 3:36:16.400 --> 3:36:18.400 his stuff was shared. Um, and there's a more like 3:36:18.440 --> 3:36:21.640 eccentric and sporadic mix of of of other news sources 3:36:21.680 --> 3:36:25.000 including Unite the Right attendee Faith Goldie who also ran 3:36:25.120 --> 3:36:28.080 from Mayor of Toronto and got third place, UM, Quebec 3:36:28.160 --> 3:36:31.600 based que and On figure Alexus trudell Um, and the 3:36:31.680 --> 3:36:34.640 al right YouTuber black Pigeon Speaks. Of course, the main 3:36:35.120 --> 3:36:38.440 yellow Vest page was shared a lot, and also sources 3:36:38.600 --> 3:36:42.400 from the highly racist The Voice of Europe. So yeah, 3:36:42.480 --> 3:36:44.960 a lot of a lot of a lot of not 3:36:45.640 --> 3:36:49.680 not great news sources being being shared by the PBC. UM. 3:36:50.760 --> 3:36:53.800 So that is the gist of the People's Party as 3:36:54.040 --> 3:36:58.199 of twenty nineteen. UM overall, their performance in the election 3:36:58.640 --> 3:37:01.600 was kind of a flop. Uh. Bernair lost his own 3:37:01.640 --> 3:37:04.680 seat in Quebec. No CTC candidates got into office and 3:37:04.760 --> 3:37:07.800 the party only managed to get one. Uh. The party 3:37:07.840 --> 3:37:09.800 only managed to get one point six percent of the 3:37:09.879 --> 3:37:16.039 total national popular vote. So that's good. It only got 3:37:16.720 --> 3:37:20.200 one point six percent of all of the votes in Canada. 3:37:20.680 --> 3:37:23.160 So we're gonna take a break from the People's Party 3:37:23.400 --> 3:37:26.080 for now and we will circle back towards it um 3:37:26.280 --> 3:37:29.960 at the end. But after after an ad break, we 3:37:30.040 --> 3:37:32.320 will we will talk about the what the main Conservative 3:37:32.360 --> 3:37:34.720 Party was up to during this time and uh and 3:37:34.920 --> 3:37:40.039 a little bit after the election. So yep, and now 3:37:40.120 --> 3:37:43.879 the cats just blocking the whole thing. All right, we're back. 3:37:44.320 --> 3:37:46.520 The cat is in the bathroom. I moved my cats. 3:37:46.600 --> 3:37:50.640 They were blocking the camera. Hello, um, People's Party not 3:37:50.800 --> 3:37:53.320 doing great in the first election. That's fun. Let's see 3:37:53.320 --> 3:37:55.360 what the regular Conservatives are up to. I'm sure it 3:37:55.480 --> 3:37:58.360 was things that are just good and cool. If I 3:37:58.480 --> 3:38:06.680 know anything about conservative it's that they're not not hashtag problematic. Yeah. 3:38:07.240 --> 3:38:10.920 Just let's just got okay, So I'll just be sad 3:38:11.040 --> 3:38:13.120 over here and the audience can know that I'm sad 3:38:13.240 --> 3:38:15.600 the whole time you're talking. I would rather as episode 3:38:15.600 --> 3:38:18.000 me not such a not such a downer, but it's 3:38:18.040 --> 3:38:19.640 it's hard to make it. That is kind of an upper. 3:38:20.520 --> 3:38:23.120 I'll make a bargain with the audience that if they listen, 3:38:23.280 --> 3:38:25.480 I will I will do my French accent at least 3:38:25.560 --> 3:38:28.560 one more time. We'll see doing the French accent. This 3:38:28.640 --> 3:38:32.800 is the happiest I have seen Robert all day. He 3:38:32.920 --> 3:38:36.520 does look very tired. You didn't say earlier, Garrison, and 3:38:36.600 --> 3:38:38.560 this was very funny that you'd be better at your 3:38:38.640 --> 3:38:41.720 job if you could speak French. But given what we 3:38:41.840 --> 3:38:44.960 are here, it cools oon media. You would actually be 3:38:45.120 --> 3:38:49.640 much worse at your job. Um And in fact, if 3:38:49.720 --> 3:38:52.720 you if you were to speak French, I would I 3:38:52.800 --> 3:38:56.040 would fire you immediate. It's actually requirement that you can't 3:38:56.080 --> 3:39:01.760 pronounce things to certainly not French. There's other languages you're 3:39:01.800 --> 3:39:04.120 allowed to know how to pronounce, but not French. No 3:39:04.360 --> 3:39:13.480 oblo francie. So let's pick up right after Maxine Bernair 3:39:13.600 --> 3:39:19.120 lost the Conservative leadership to Andrew Sheer in Um. Sheer 3:39:19.280 --> 3:39:22.560 won the leadership on a on on like a platform 3:39:22.600 --> 3:39:26.879 of classical financial conservatism and a slightly more socially moderate 3:39:26.959 --> 3:39:30.200 platform UM. When Sheer got into office, though, one of 3:39:30.240 --> 3:39:32.720 the things he faced criticism for, even among the Conservative 3:39:32.760 --> 3:39:36.640 caucus was his association with a little media with was 3:39:36.680 --> 3:39:40.279 his association with a little media outlet called Rebel Media. 3:39:42.000 --> 3:39:47.320 Yeah so most most listeners may not know what rebel 3:39:47.360 --> 3:39:50.280 media is, but you've certainly seen their stuff or felt 3:39:50.320 --> 3:39:53.400 their effect. Yeah, it's like the rough draft of bright 3:39:53.480 --> 3:39:58.520 Bart And also Canadian and Canadian, Yes so Canadian? Uh 3:39:58.680 --> 3:40:01.879 so Rebel mead as a Canadian far right neo fascist 3:40:01.920 --> 3:40:05.680 propaganda outlet's turn that has a lot of a lot 3:40:05.760 --> 3:40:12.600 of bright bardy vibes. Umbel Media, Yeah, bright Bartesque. Rebel 3:40:12.640 --> 3:40:16.040 Media hosts and contributors have included a white nationalist and 3:40:16.080 --> 3:40:19.560 white genocide proponent Laurence Southern UM and Proud Boy founder 3:40:19.640 --> 3:40:24.880 Gavin McGinnis UM. McGinnis produced a quote satirical video for 3:40:24.959 --> 3:40:30.640 Rebel called ten Things I Hate about the Jews. Yeah, 3:40:31.760 --> 3:40:34.840 yeah so, and and it's and it is worth noting 3:40:34.879 --> 3:40:38.680 that both Southern and McGinnis are Canadian. Um. They're actually 3:40:38.920 --> 3:40:42.320 a lot of alter right figures that are Canadian. Of course, 3:40:42.360 --> 3:40:45.120 we have we have Lauren Southern Gavin McGinnis. Um, we 3:40:45.240 --> 3:40:48.360 have Stephen Crowder, uh, Stefan malin you and of course 3:40:48.440 --> 3:40:51.360 Jordan Peterson. All of those people are are Canadian and 3:40:51.480 --> 3:40:56.959 most of the most of them still live in Canada. Yes, 3:40:57.040 --> 3:41:00.800 he's still alive. Made he made it. And same tweet 3:41:00.840 --> 3:41:05.640 the other day. God, he made the most tweet. That 3:41:05.720 --> 3:41:09.360 tweet made it all worthwhile. Baby, he got everyone to 3:41:09.400 --> 3:41:11.760 go check his Twitter feed. It is amazing. You can 3:41:12.000 --> 3:41:15.160 you can hear his brain shorting out when you read 3:41:15.240 --> 3:41:20.040 that tweet, Like you need to find the tweet it is. 3:41:20.160 --> 3:41:22.800 It is just it is the most beautiful piece of 3:41:22.920 --> 3:41:26.119 poetry of everywhere. It's like somebody taught a stroke out 3:41:26.160 --> 3:41:32.600 of type. It makes no sense. God, it's so good. Um, 3:41:33.800 --> 3:41:36.280 I'm going to quote an article by a Global News 3:41:36.360 --> 3:41:39.680 dot c a on Andrew Sheer and Rebel media. Quote. 3:41:39.879 --> 3:41:42.520 Despite a string of controversies faced by Canadian right wing 3:41:42.640 --> 3:41:45.560 media outlet of the Rebel, including allegations of downplaying the 3:41:45.600 --> 3:41:49.480 Holocaust movie minted, Conservative Party leader Andrew Shear has so 3:41:49.560 --> 3:41:51.720 far continued to make himself available to the company that 3:41:51.840 --> 3:41:56.120 other prominent conservative politicians have criticized for its controversial reporting 3:41:56.160 --> 3:42:00.320 and activism. Shears campaign organization also has a direct nection 3:42:00.360 --> 3:42:03.640 to The Rebel. His campaign manager, Hamish Marshall, is listed 3:42:03.680 --> 3:42:07.080 as a director of the company's federal incorporation records, which 3:42:07.120 --> 3:42:09.720 show its most recent annual gathering meeting was in February 3:42:09.840 --> 3:42:13.119 this year. Following the leadership election in Toronto on Saturday, 3:42:13.280 --> 3:42:15.400 Sheer granted one on one interviews with a handful of 3:42:15.440 --> 3:42:18.360 major media organizations, including a face to face interview with 3:42:18.480 --> 3:42:22.879 The Rebels Ottawa correspondent Brian Lily. Prior to his convention interview. 3:42:23.320 --> 3:42:25.760 Sheer appeared on The Rebel in February in a studio 3:42:25.800 --> 3:42:29.440 interview with host Faith Goldie on her show on the Hunt. 3:42:30.160 --> 3:42:32.760 At the end of the discussion, Goldie asked Sheer if 3:42:32.920 --> 3:42:34.520 if he would agree to go on a duck hunting 3:42:34.520 --> 3:42:37.680 trip with her after after he wins the leadership on 3:42:37.879 --> 3:42:41.920 Canada Day, which he agreed to. UM. We briefly mentioned 3:42:42.000 --> 3:42:44.440 Faith Goldie earlier in her connection to the People's Party 3:42:44.840 --> 3:42:48.000 UM and her brief campaign for the Toronto mayor, but 3:42:48.400 --> 3:42:51.680 here's some more background on her UM and her coverage 3:42:51.800 --> 3:42:53.840 and her coverage of the Unite the Right rally for 3:42:54.160 --> 3:42:58.800 Rebel media. Quoting from Winnipeg Free Press. In the course 3:42:58.879 --> 3:43:01.920 of her dispatches, Goldie argued the events in the Charlottesville 3:43:02.000 --> 3:43:05.400 were evidence of a rising white racial consciousness that was 3:43:05.480 --> 3:43:08.560 going to change the political landscape in America. She also 3:43:08.600 --> 3:43:12.040 wanted to she's actually not wrong there. That was. Yeah, 3:43:12.160 --> 3:43:15.120 she's not wrong, but I think she's incorrect. She's on 3:43:15.200 --> 3:43:17.200 the other side of the island. And whether this is 3:43:17.280 --> 3:43:20.640 a good or bad thing. Yeah. She went to great 3:43:20.720 --> 3:43:25.040 lengths to laud the twenty point Meta political Manifesto composed 3:43:25.120 --> 3:43:28.359 by White National's leader Richard Spencer, a document that includes 3:43:28.400 --> 3:43:31.800 calls to organize U states along ethnic and racial divides 3:43:32.640 --> 3:43:36.560 and celebrates the superiority of white America faith. Goldie describes 3:43:36.600 --> 3:43:41.200 Spencer's manifesto as robust and well thought out. Goldie was 3:43:41.360 --> 3:43:45.640 fired by Rebel in mid August seventeen, but not due 3:43:45.680 --> 3:43:48.400 to her participation in Unite the Right. She was fired 3:43:48.480 --> 3:43:52.520 for appearing on a Daily Stormer podcast to discussing the right. 3:43:54.080 --> 3:43:57.960 So yeah, yeah, that's that's fine, So yeah, fine, nice 3:43:58.000 --> 3:44:02.800 to have her. Interviewing Conservative of leader Andrew Sheer asked 3:44:02.840 --> 3:44:05.240 for his reaction to Unite the Right and Rebel media 3:44:05.720 --> 3:44:09.959 um after what happened in Charlotte'sville in seventeen. Sheer, who 3:44:10.040 --> 3:44:13.160 had previously been interviewed by Rebel multiple times UH, finally 3:44:13.280 --> 3:44:15.920 disavowed the outlets, saying, look, I believe there's a fine 3:44:16.000 --> 3:44:18.680 line between covering events and giving a platform to groups 3:44:18.680 --> 3:44:21.280 who are promoting a violent, disgusting point of view. I 3:44:21.320 --> 3:44:25.360 won't be granting interviews going forward. So that's nice that 3:44:25.440 --> 3:44:27.720 it took someone dying in Charlotte's Ville to realize that 3:44:27.720 --> 3:44:32.040 you probably shouldn't talk to the fascist media source. Um So, 3:44:32.440 --> 3:44:35.520 in the aftermath of Unite the Right, the mainstream conservatives 3:44:35.720 --> 3:44:38.800 kind of had to tread carefully around social issues because 3:44:38.879 --> 3:44:40.800 it's like, oh, yeah, they're there's still not seas we 3:44:40.920 --> 3:44:43.879 probably shouldn't be pandering to them. Um But as more 3:44:44.080 --> 3:44:47.040 time of distance let the air cool, some conservatives went 3:44:47.160 --> 3:44:50.520 back to the same old rhetoric around the twenty nineteen election. UM. 3:44:50.840 --> 3:44:55.640 For instance, in his twenty nineteen election campaign, UH Tom Chemick, 3:44:55.959 --> 3:44:59.160 the parliamentary representative of one of the parliamentary representatives for 3:44:59.280 --> 3:45:02.800 Calgary l Berta, wrote out and spread flyers with the 3:45:02.840 --> 3:45:06.040 all claps with the all caps header of crisis at 3:45:06.080 --> 3:45:10.320 the Border with text treating their constituent. The Independent Auditor 3:45:10.400 --> 3:45:13.160 General of Canada has published a scathing report confirming that 3:45:13.240 --> 3:45:16.480 the Ottawa Liberals have failed to safely and responsibly manage 3:45:16.520 --> 3:45:19.840 Canada's borders. Since Justin Trudeau you responsibly tweeted out that 3:45:19.879 --> 3:45:22.600 Canada would open Sportis to anyone seeking entry, the number 3:45:22.640 --> 3:45:24.920 of people illegally crossing the boarder into Canada from the 3:45:25.000 --> 3:45:27.720 United States has surged past one thousand a month, with 3:45:27.800 --> 3:45:32.199 almost twenty thou people illegally enteringen alone, and while speaking 3:45:32.240 --> 3:45:35.080 to voters of Connect repeatedly insisted that all the problems 3:45:35.120 --> 3:45:38.320 of people illegally crossing the Canadian border isn't a symptom 3:45:38.360 --> 3:45:40.920 of a failure of systems to respond to a growing crisis, 3:45:41.280 --> 3:45:44.200 but merely a failure for border patrol to to assert 3:45:44.280 --> 3:45:49.000 control over people. UM quotes and flyer courtesy of About 3:45:49.080 --> 3:45:52.920 This Tom chemic Guy. A courtesy of a. Dan Olson 3:45:53.000 --> 3:45:56.600 of Folding Ideas. He's a great Canadian documentarian who released 3:45:56.640 --> 3:45:59.160 a magnificent piece on Q and on and conspiracy theories 3:45:59.240 --> 3:46:03.000 last year on his YouTube channel of Folding Ideas. Overall, 3:46:03.400 --> 3:46:06.120 I really really like Dan. He makes very good stuff. 3:46:06.600 --> 3:46:09.360 UM So thank thank you to him for sending me 3:46:10.000 --> 3:46:14.520 those those those flyers. Um. Anyway, during the election, sheer 3:46:14.600 --> 3:46:17.120 led the Conservatives to gain a total of twenty six 3:46:17.280 --> 3:46:21.600 seats in the party inside Parliament, going from nive up 3:46:21.680 --> 3:46:24.879 to one hundred and twenty one. But they did finish 3:46:25.120 --> 3:46:28.880 thirty six seats behind the Liberals despite beating the Liberals 3:46:28.959 --> 3:46:32.040 and the popular vote by one three percent. So that 3:46:32.200 --> 3:46:34.600 was a thirty four point four percent for Conservatives and 3:46:34.680 --> 3:46:37.039 thirty three point one percent of the popular vote for Liberals. 3:46:37.280 --> 3:46:39.120 The margin was just over like two hundred and forty 3:46:39.160 --> 3:46:42.000 thousand votes. Um. The Liberals lost twenty seats in the 3:46:42.040 --> 3:46:45.360 election and the NDP lost fifteen seats. And this was 3:46:45.400 --> 3:46:49.280 the first time since uh since nineteen seventy nine that 3:46:49.360 --> 3:46:52.040 a party won the most seats without also winning the 3:46:52.080 --> 3:46:55.760 popular vote. Um. What what pushed the Conservatives over on 3:46:55.840 --> 3:46:58.440 the popular vote was due to you know, extremely high 3:46:58.480 --> 3:47:03.199 conservative turnout in uh in in in various in various writings. 3:47:03.240 --> 3:47:06.160 So basically more Conservatives voted instant runnings and they usually 3:47:06.200 --> 3:47:08.720 do so even if the Liberals still win the district, 3:47:08.760 --> 3:47:11.480 there was still more conservative votes to be counted. Um. 3:47:12.440 --> 3:47:15.400 And also they basically swept the Prairie provinces of Alberta 3:47:15.440 --> 3:47:17.880 and Saskatchewan, where they won seventy of the vote in 3:47:17.959 --> 3:47:22.000 sixties five percent of the vote, respectively. But their victories 3:47:22.040 --> 3:47:24.920 in those states and their higher turnout did not convert 3:47:24.959 --> 3:47:28.080 into many seats because the less population dense areas have 3:47:28.160 --> 3:47:32.040 fewer federal writings and fewer available seats UM, and the 3:47:32.600 --> 3:47:36.200 Liberals had to rely heavily for seats in Ontario, the 3:47:36.320 --> 3:47:40.119 you know, the most populous province that include cities like Toronto, UM, 3:47:40.200 --> 3:47:42.800 and you know other a few other big cities. So 3:47:43.520 --> 3:47:46.160 you know, Canada doesn't have the most democratic system like 3:47:46.320 --> 3:47:48.280 so the same way you know in the States were 3:47:48.320 --> 3:47:51.280 familiar with, you know, people losing popular votes um but 3:47:51.400 --> 3:47:53.800 still getting elected president and stuff. You know, in Canada's 3:47:53.800 --> 3:47:55.640 it's it's it's a little bit different because of how 3:47:55.760 --> 3:47:58.879 you vote for parties in your own little district. UM. 3:47:59.320 --> 3:48:00.920 But you know, it's still not perfect, right because like 3:48:01.280 --> 3:48:03.800 it is. It it does feel weird for the leader 3:48:03.959 --> 3:48:06.480 of the leader of the country to not have his 3:48:06.560 --> 3:48:08.440 part do not have also won the popular vote because 3:48:08.480 --> 3:48:10.800 of how you know, districts work out and how higher 3:48:10.840 --> 3:48:13.040 turn out in some areas doesn't mean that it's going 3:48:13.080 --> 3:48:16.119 to have more seats. Um. You know. But the other 3:48:16.240 --> 3:48:19.720 side of things here is that like Canada also doesn't 3:48:19.720 --> 3:48:22.400 have ranked choice, so like, still the majority of people 3:48:22.480 --> 3:48:24.680 voted for left of center candidates if you include you know, 3:48:24.800 --> 3:48:27.400 the Green Party, the n DP, and the Liberals. So 3:48:27.560 --> 3:48:29.680 even the Liberals lost the popular vote, there's still like 3:48:29.720 --> 3:48:32.600 a majority left of center voting. So if they if 3:48:32.640 --> 3:48:34.959 they had ranked choice, maybe the results would have been different. 3:48:35.240 --> 3:48:39.000 So Canada's system, it definitely is, I'm perfect for how 3:48:39.120 --> 3:48:42.720 they do elections. Um. I would I would prefer ranked choice, 3:48:42.760 --> 3:48:45.240 as you know, basically basically I would prefer that for 3:48:45.280 --> 3:48:48.240 like every country if they're gonna have elections. Um. So yeah, 3:48:48.320 --> 3:48:50.640 just kind of explaining why they can lose the popular 3:48:50.720 --> 3:48:54.560 vote but still you know, still win a majority controlling government. Um. 3:48:55.400 --> 3:48:58.400 So after the election, Sheer announced he was resigning as 3:48:58.440 --> 3:49:01.400 head of the Conservatives in December twenty nineteen. Uh. This 3:49:01.560 --> 3:49:03.280 was after it was revealed that he had used party 3:49:03.360 --> 3:49:07.360 funds for his children's own private schooling. So good for him. Um, 3:49:08.240 --> 3:49:10.800 A new bid for Conservative leadership went into effect. We're 3:49:10.800 --> 3:49:14.120 gonna mainly focus on two candidates here. Uh. There was 3:49:14.200 --> 3:49:18.240 an erin O'Toole and Derek Solan Um. O'tool fancies himself 3:49:18.280 --> 3:49:20.760 as another kind of like classic financial conservative and a 3:49:20.880 --> 3:49:24.720 social moderate. He feels more like the old progressive conservative 3:49:24.760 --> 3:49:26.600 candidates from back before the two of us in three 3:49:26.920 --> 3:49:29.800 Unite the Right merger. Um we got some like John 3:49:29.880 --> 3:49:33.800 McCain vibes here, um, but Derek solan is more similar 3:49:33.880 --> 3:49:36.200 to the farther right parts of the U s IS 3:49:36.280 --> 3:49:42.800 current Republican Party, like anti abortion, anti LGBT, racist tweets, etcetera. Um. 3:49:43.080 --> 3:49:46.760 But as a whole, Solon's extremism was rejected by the 3:49:46.840 --> 3:49:49.760 Canadian Conservatives. Um he got only he got like only fourth. 3:49:49.840 --> 3:49:51.960 He got fourth placed with fifteen percent of the vote 3:49:52.240 --> 3:49:55.560 during the first round of voting, UM and ultimately o'tool 3:49:55.640 --> 3:49:59.720 one leadership after three rounds of votes. UM and o'tool 3:49:59.800 --> 3:50:02.800 now has the has the new challenge of trying to 3:50:02.960 --> 3:50:06.720 appeal to the Canadian conservatives more moderate wing, as well 3:50:06.800 --> 3:50:09.760 as the more Trumpian wing that's developed the past few years. 3:50:10.400 --> 3:50:14.040 He's been relatively successful in crafting like a boring, polite 3:50:14.200 --> 3:50:18.000 Canadian version of Trump's nationalism, with slogans like Canada First 3:50:18.080 --> 3:50:21.440 and take Canada Back. Um, you know, despite supporting trade 3:50:21.520 --> 3:50:25.560 deals outsourcing Canadian jobs to cheaper overseas markets, because they 3:50:25.680 --> 3:50:29.360 never actually mean what they say. UM and the and 3:50:29.480 --> 3:50:32.240 As the Liberals have grown more aware of Canada's bloody 3:50:32.320 --> 3:50:34.800 history and have like toned down the red and white 3:50:34.840 --> 3:50:38.560 maple leaf patriotism, the Conservative Party under o'tool has seized 3:50:38.600 --> 3:50:41.280 on this opportunity to make Canadian patriotism more of a 3:50:41.440 --> 3:50:44.320 right leaning staple, just like patriotism is, you know, it's 3:50:44.320 --> 3:50:45.760 more of like a right wing thing in the States. 3:50:46.360 --> 3:50:49.880 So basically, after we were like, oh yeah, residential schools 3:50:49.920 --> 3:50:52.360 were bad, Canada's kind of sucked up, liberals are like, Okay, 3:50:52.400 --> 3:50:55.200 we maybe shouldn't be so we shouldn't be waving our 3:50:55.560 --> 3:50:58.240 maple leaf flags everywhere. Maybe we're not a perfect country. 3:50:58.560 --> 3:51:01.000 The Conservatives like, no, you have be proud to be Canadian. 3:51:01.080 --> 3:51:03.960 So they've kind of taken patriotism to be their new thing. Well, 3:51:04.040 --> 3:51:05.720 previously it was much more of like a liberal thing. 3:51:06.400 --> 3:51:09.720 The Islamophobia and overt religious bigotry under a tool has 3:51:09.760 --> 3:51:12.480 been slightly trimmed down. UM and climate change has at 3:51:12.560 --> 3:51:16.040 least been mentioned as existing UM, but there has also 3:51:16.120 --> 3:51:19.000 been increased discussion on trying to hack down Canada's healthcare 3:51:19.080 --> 3:51:23.040 and privatize more aspects of it. Which, yeah, good job, guys, 3:51:23.120 --> 3:51:28.160 take away the only good part of Canada. Um like Uh. 3:51:29.000 --> 3:51:31.800 The province of Alberta under Jason Kenny has done this 3:51:31.880 --> 3:51:34.840 to a disastrous effect, um, raising the cost of medical 3:51:34.920 --> 3:51:38.840 care for lower class people, many of whom voted Conservative. UM. 3:51:39.040 --> 3:51:41.240 I have family in Alberta and just the past five 3:51:41.320 --> 3:51:44.680 years the changes to the healthcare system there has been horrible. UM, 3:51:44.760 --> 3:51:48.040 it's not it's not great. So basically what what what 3:51:48.120 --> 3:51:50.200 old Tool wants is he he wants he wants to 3:51:50.520 --> 3:51:52.520 just privatize more elements of it. He has a specific 3:51:52.640 --> 3:51:55.200 term he uses like. He wants like a. He wants 3:51:55.200 --> 3:51:57.480 to like split the FED like the like the taxpayer 3:51:57.560 --> 3:51:59.600 healthcare and privatize health care into two sections that you 3:51:59.600 --> 3:52:02.160 can choos which one to join in. Anyway, it's silly. 3:52:02.760 --> 3:52:06.880 Um O'Toole did take a wee little stance to distance 3:52:07.000 --> 3:52:09.200 himself from the more extreme wings of his party when 3:52:09.240 --> 3:52:12.480 he decided to remove MP Derek Solan from the caucus. 3:52:13.320 --> 3:52:15.080 Oh Tool announced that Solan will not be allowed to 3:52:15.160 --> 3:52:17.720 run as a candidate for the for the Conservative Party 3:52:17.720 --> 3:52:21.000 in the next election either, saying racism is a disease 3:52:21.040 --> 3:52:23.440 of the soul, repugnance to our core values. It has 3:52:23.480 --> 3:52:25.080 no place in our country and has no place in 3:52:25.120 --> 3:52:28.120 the Conservative Party of Canada. I won't tolerate it. Um. 3:52:28.280 --> 3:52:30.760 Also last year, O'Toole refused to say whether he thinks 3:52:30.840 --> 3:52:36.680 systemic racism exists. UM. But the decision to remove Soland 3:52:36.880 --> 3:52:39.560 was made after it was revealed that he accepted the 3:52:39.600 --> 3:52:44.840 donation from the Canadian Nazi Paul from during uh during 3:52:44.880 --> 3:52:48.160 Soland's bid for a Conservative leadership back in the nineties 3:52:48.280 --> 3:52:50.480 of From was a figurehead of the Canadian far right movement, 3:52:50.800 --> 3:52:54.360 appearing at Heritage Front rallies and also caught on video 3:52:54.400 --> 3:52:57.320 at a party celebrating Hitler's birthday, which he lost his 3:52:57.400 --> 3:53:02.720 high school teaching job over. Sol. Look, it's just polite 3:53:02.800 --> 3:53:05.520 to celebrate a guy's birthday, you know, whether or not 3:53:05.720 --> 3:53:12.600 he's Hitler, under no circumstances. Do you got us? This 3:53:13.320 --> 3:53:18.520 is a hot tike um. So there has been a 3:53:18.560 --> 3:53:19.840 bit of the There has been a bit of a 3:53:19.960 --> 3:53:23.360 rift in the Conservative Party over how much Trumpian rhetoric 3:53:23.440 --> 3:53:26.760 should be allowed in the Canadian Conservative Party. UM. And 3:53:26.880 --> 3:53:30.800 this kind of rift has definitely increased after January six. UM. 3:53:31.160 --> 3:53:34.080 The problem for Conservative politicians is that to win elections 3:53:34.120 --> 3:53:36.720 they need to appeal to the largest swath of voters 3:53:37.240 --> 3:53:40.600 UM and that includes more socially conservative and increasingly far 3:53:40.760 --> 3:53:43.720 right rule folks. But if they go too far, they'll 3:53:43.760 --> 3:53:45.840 lose the moderates to the Liberal Party. So you have 3:53:45.880 --> 3:53:47.840 to it's like this delicate balance but to kind of 3:53:47.880 --> 3:53:50.400 give you like an overview of what the current state 3:53:50.440 --> 3:53:53.840 of the Conservative of like votership is UM for and 3:53:53.960 --> 3:53:56.520 tent of the Conservative Party of Canada members. So you know, 3:53:56.600 --> 3:53:58.520 people signed up to vote in the party. You know, 3:53:59.320 --> 3:54:02.280 regular people UM four in ten would say that they 3:54:02.320 --> 3:54:04.800 would have voted for Trump. For intents say that they 3:54:04.880 --> 3:54:08.680 think Democrats told the presential election, and for intens say 3:54:08.720 --> 3:54:13.280 that the Conservative and four intent believe that the January 3:54:13.360 --> 3:54:16.200 six riot was staged or was done by the Democrats, 3:54:16.240 --> 3:54:19.560 are done by Antiva. So that's kind of the state 3:54:19.640 --> 3:54:22.680 of the Conservative Party in Canada for like the for 3:54:22.760 --> 3:54:25.400 the voters. So you know, politicians have to kind of 3:54:25.600 --> 3:54:27.200 in order to win, they need they need still still 3:54:27.360 --> 3:54:29.760 still need to appeal to those people, but they don't 3:54:30.000 --> 3:54:33.320 want to do that thing. Usually like they usually don't 3:54:33.360 --> 3:54:36.680 like usually there the like a big talking point is 3:54:36.760 --> 3:54:40.120 like rejecting the divisive politics of the of of the 3:54:40.240 --> 3:54:42.120 of the United States. Like that's a big thing people 3:54:42.160 --> 3:54:44.640 say in Canada. Is that like they don't want it 3:54:44.680 --> 3:54:47.320 to become like, you know, like a fighting match, because 3:54:47.320 --> 3:54:50.400 like the other main difference between Canada's elections in American's 3:54:50.400 --> 3:54:53.320 elections is like America is like always an election season, 3:54:53.600 --> 3:54:55.840 right like every you know, even after each election, it's 3:54:55.880 --> 3:54:58.560 like you feel like campaigns start right up again. Um, 3:54:58.960 --> 3:55:02.360 Canada's campaigns only run like a few months before the election, Like, 3:55:02.520 --> 3:55:05.640 like it is not like those things you guys do 3:55:05.720 --> 3:55:08.160 objectively better than us, and a lot of the world does. 3:55:08.200 --> 3:55:10.480 It's not just Canada. The idea that like, oh, elections 3:55:10.480 --> 3:55:13.840 are terrible, we should spend a little time. It's like 3:55:14.360 --> 3:55:16.800 to like two or three months of campaigning. That's it, 3:55:16.920 --> 3:55:19.200 Like it's not it's not like a two year, four 3:55:19.280 --> 3:55:21.400 year thing. No, that is a thing that we should. 3:55:21.400 --> 3:55:24.680 Absolutely the election should be about eleven minutes from from 3:55:24.720 --> 3:55:27.760 the start of the campaign to the vote. Everybody gets 3:55:27.800 --> 3:55:31.240 a minute to explain their their politics and then we 3:55:31.400 --> 3:55:34.400 vote and then we throw them into the sea. Yeah, 3:55:35.600 --> 3:55:38.960 so trying to trying to craft marketing to the divided 3:55:39.040 --> 3:55:41.320 right wing. It's been interesting to watch. You know, there's 3:55:41.360 --> 3:55:44.080 like videos about Tool walking through you know, downtowns with 3:55:44.200 --> 3:55:47.120 Pride flags in the background and you know, featuring visible 3:55:47.200 --> 3:55:50.000 like minority Canadians intermingling. But then you also have a 3:55:50.080 --> 3:55:53.160 tool like Ralely against cancel culture feeling suggestions that the 3:55:53.680 --> 3:55:56.480 liberal government's pandemic response is part of a socialist great 3:55:56.640 --> 3:55:59.600 reset and pulling out the dog whistle on like China 3:55:59.800 --> 3:56:02.080 and the coronavirus, you know, as often as you can. 3:56:02.560 --> 3:56:06.000 UM tools in the past also downplayed Canadians Residential Schools 3:56:06.120 --> 3:56:10.680 program UM and described the efforts of activists pushing to 3:56:10.800 --> 3:56:13.200 removal of statues of the of the Residentary of School 3:56:13.240 --> 3:56:17.320 Architects as stupid. UM. So, I I do think O'tool 3:56:17.400 --> 3:56:20.760 prefers a conservative party, resistant too far right branding, but 3:56:20.880 --> 3:56:22.480 he knows he needs to appeal to the voters in 3:56:22.600 --> 3:56:26.280 order to win elections. So it's it's it's it's just 3:56:26.600 --> 3:56:29.800 it's the thing that's not great, but it's interesting to watch. UM. 3:56:30.200 --> 3:56:34.400 In August one, Justin Trudeau noted black face appreciator UH 3:56:34.600 --> 3:56:37.320 called a snap election in an effort to gain more 3:56:37.360 --> 3:56:40.440 parliamentary seats in hopes of getting a majority Liberal government, 3:56:40.800 --> 3:56:42.440 something a prime minister should not be allowed to do, 3:56:42.520 --> 3:56:44.160 by the way, like a priva minister should not be 3:56:44.160 --> 3:56:46.440 able to decide when to do elections. That is, like 3:56:47.160 --> 3:56:51.240 should totally not be a thing. Like what, no, you 3:56:51.280 --> 3:56:56.920 shouldn't do that, but anyway. Um. As snap election ramped up, 3:56:57.120 --> 3:57:01.000 the Conservative Party under a tool, made some extremely questionable 3:57:01.080 --> 3:57:04.800 choices for their marketings and their slogans. Um, what does 3:57:04.840 --> 3:57:10.480 the phrase secure the future bring to mind anything? Yeah? 3:57:10.960 --> 3:57:13.960 So that became the new tagline for the entire Conservative 3:57:14.000 --> 3:57:18.520 Party under o'tool. Right. Okay, sure, we got, we got, 3:57:18.560 --> 3:57:21.080 we got, we got Secure the Future, billboards, we got, 3:57:21.160 --> 3:57:23.960 we got, we got websites, Conservative dot c a slash 3:57:24.040 --> 3:57:28.520 secure the Future. We got mailer's magazine covers all emblazoned 3:57:28.600 --> 3:57:32.600 with secure the future or secure our future. Um, and 3:57:32.720 --> 3:57:37.000 you know what will secure our future? Garrison the Chevron 3:57:37.040 --> 3:57:42.360 ads that keep popping up that we keep securing our future. Yeah, great, 3:57:42.760 --> 3:57:48.920 you're welcome. It's a great time. Chevron appreciators for everyone. Ah, 3:57:49.280 --> 3:57:54.280 we're back and just appreciating Chevron, just like Justin Trudeau 3:57:54.320 --> 3:57:59.560 appreciate like Justin Trudeau. Yeah, so secure the future great 3:57:59.600 --> 3:58:02.200 slogan and not a good slogan. Bad. Um. I'm going 3:58:02.280 --> 3:58:04.560 to read a bit from a mailer that went out 3:58:04.680 --> 3:58:08.080 to Conservative Party members after a Tool one leadership quote. 3:58:08.640 --> 3:58:11.400 I firmly believe Canada has everything. It has everything it 3:58:11.480 --> 3:58:14.120 takes to recover from COVID nineteen and enjoy a prosperous 3:58:14.160 --> 3:58:16.320 future if we have a government that knows how to 3:58:16.520 --> 3:58:20.400 secure the future. If the truth, if the Trudeau Liberals 3:58:20.440 --> 3:58:23.200 stay in power, they'll continue spending taxpayer money at pandemic 3:58:23.280 --> 3:58:26.440 era levels long before, long after the virus is behind us. 3:58:26.680 --> 3:58:29.240 The result, all the things we love about Canada will 3:58:29.240 --> 3:58:31.760 be in serious jeopardy, Our debt will become out of control, 3:58:31.960 --> 3:58:33.720 and they'll never be able to get back the Canada 3:58:33.800 --> 3:58:35.800 you and I grew up in the kind of Canada 3:58:35.880 --> 3:58:40.000 our children and grandchildren deserve so uh. Later on in 3:58:40.040 --> 3:58:41.720 the page, oh, Tool says we need to stand up 3:58:41.720 --> 3:58:44.440 to the Chinese Communist Party and hold Beijing accountable for 3:58:44.520 --> 3:58:48.920 sabotaging our economy and taking jobs from Canadian workers. Um. And. 3:58:49.120 --> 3:58:52.800 On August sixteen, the Canadian Conservative Party Twitter account tweeted 3:58:52.840 --> 3:58:57.400 out and I quote, Canada's recovery program will secure the 3:58:57.480 --> 3:59:01.320 future for you, your children, and your and your grandchildren. 3:59:02.160 --> 3:59:05.880 So that's fun. Also, also, guess how guess guess how 3:59:05.920 --> 3:59:09.960 many words is in that last sentence. It's fourteen of them. Yeah, yeah, 3:59:10.000 --> 3:59:14.040 we're going back to calling Canada Clanada again. It's like 3:59:14.160 --> 3:59:16.840 a dog whistle, but except for you know, a dog whistle, 3:59:16.880 --> 3:59:20.800 only dogs can hear it, except everyone. It's just a whistle. 3:59:21.040 --> 3:59:24.360 It's just it's just a regular whistle. Yeah, it's it's 3:59:24.360 --> 3:59:29.280 it's that he just tweeted it tweet. Yeah. So as anyway, 3:59:29.480 --> 3:59:32.240 um as O'Toole was getting all secure the future piled um. 3:59:32.360 --> 3:59:35.760 Canada's actual far right populist party, the People's Party, was 3:59:35.880 --> 3:59:40.240 gaining much more popularity amid the pandemic and the anti mask, 3:59:40.280 --> 3:59:44.840 anti lockdown, anti VAXX protests. The COVID nineteen pandemic was 3:59:44.880 --> 3:59:46.640 a gift to the far right in general, as it 3:59:46.680 --> 3:59:49.960 allowed the injection and proliferation of conspiracy theories to accelerate 3:59:49.960 --> 3:59:53.280 at levels almost never before seen and provided fair recruiting 3:59:53.320 --> 3:59:56.400 ground to gain new followers. The PPC latched onto this 3:59:56.520 --> 3:59:59.320 and was extremely successful. They were you know, they sponsored protests. 3:59:59.360 --> 4:00:01.120 They did a whole b of campaigns that are around 4:00:01.160 --> 4:00:03.800 like anti mask stuff, anti vaccine, you know, all all 4:00:03.880 --> 4:00:06.840 of it. Um. So the PPC was able to be 4:00:07.000 --> 4:00:09.680 not just a safe harper for anti immigration, white nationalists 4:00:09.720 --> 4:00:11.920 and neo Nazis and other far right groups, but also 4:00:12.000 --> 4:00:15.720 now more mainstream anti lockdown, anti vaccine, anti government protesters 4:00:15.800 --> 4:00:18.080 as well as you know, gun rights activists and some 4:00:18.240 --> 4:00:21.800 general rule workers feeling left behind from even the Conservative Party. 4:00:22.320 --> 4:00:25.240 So the PPC has changed from a niche white nationalist 4:00:25.280 --> 4:00:28.800 party to a full blown far right populist force. What 4:00:29.160 --> 4:00:31.320 Berner and the and the PPC have done so effectively 4:00:31.320 --> 4:00:33.480 since the pandemic is to use the broad concerns around 4:00:33.520 --> 4:00:36.760 COVID and freedom and the more you know, mainstream concerns 4:00:36.760 --> 4:00:40.440 about economic anxieties, job loss, lots of businesses, immigration and 4:00:40.520 --> 4:00:43.080 changing culture and managed and managed to rule all of 4:00:43.120 --> 4:00:45.840 these things up into one tight package, which is really 4:00:45.880 --> 4:00:48.200 appealing to a lot of Canadians who are very anxious 4:00:48.200 --> 4:00:51.120 about the state of their country, especially amid the COVID 4:00:51.240 --> 4:00:55.560 nineteen pandemic. So the results of the September snap election, 4:00:55.720 --> 4:00:58.440 which was you know, last month, we're basically the same 4:00:58.480 --> 4:01:01.880 as the twenty nine election, except the PPC went from 4:01:02.040 --> 4:01:04.000 one point six percent of the vote to five percent 4:01:04.080 --> 4:01:07.120 of the vote, a big, big change, uh. They That 4:01:07.240 --> 4:01:10.440 means they were ranking above the Green Party and nearly 4:01:10.600 --> 4:01:14.720 tying the block kebu Qua. So they made like, I know, 4:01:14.880 --> 4:01:17.520 like one percent of five percent doesn't seem like tons, 4:01:17.640 --> 4:01:19.680 but like this is a really big jump for a 4:01:19.760 --> 4:01:23.400 brand new party, um, especially especially if they're ahead of 4:01:23.440 --> 4:01:25.960 the Green Party and tying the Block Party. That is 4:01:26.040 --> 4:01:30.920 like a notable shift um. The University of Ghulaf Professor 4:01:31.360 --> 4:01:34.440 of of Political Science, Tamra Small said that said this 4:01:34.680 --> 4:01:37.160 after the results of the last snap election quote, I 4:01:37.240 --> 4:01:39.240 think the only leader who's a static about last night's 4:01:39.240 --> 4:01:41.840 results is Bernair. I don't think they're going anywhere. I 4:01:41.920 --> 4:01:44.240 think it seems that he's taken the populism and attached 4:01:44.280 --> 4:01:47.040 to far right politics, the idea that Canada was immune 4:01:47.080 --> 4:01:48.960 to this sort of far right populism, the idea that 4:01:49.040 --> 4:01:51.280 Canada was going to be free from the populism that 4:01:51.360 --> 4:01:53.960 we saw in Europe, like what Nigel Farage is in 4:01:54.000 --> 4:01:56.320 the UK. But I think lots of people are wondering 4:01:56.400 --> 4:01:58.120 if Bernara is just gonna say I'm not here to 4:01:58.200 --> 4:02:00.400 form an actual government. I'm just here to challenge the 4:02:00.480 --> 4:02:04.680 system and use that as a way of gaining massive support. Um. 4:02:05.000 --> 4:02:08.760 After us CTV News emailed the PPC for comment for 4:02:08.840 --> 4:02:12.080 their post election story, uh, the party spokesperson sent back 4:02:12.200 --> 4:02:15.960 a one line email response, I don't respond to requests 4:02:16.000 --> 4:02:21.080 from leftists. Activists masquerading as journalists get lost, So that's fun. 4:02:21.520 --> 4:02:24.960 Also in late September, Bernard's Twitter account was temporarily suspended 4:02:25.240 --> 4:02:30.680 for encouraging his supporters to attack journalists. Yeah. Just not like, 4:02:31.280 --> 4:02:33.720 I'm okay with criticizing journalist and stuff, because most journalists 4:02:33.760 --> 4:02:36.800 are like not great. But when you're using your political 4:02:36.840 --> 4:02:38.800 Twitter account to just like tell people to just go 4:02:38.880 --> 4:02:41.960 attack the press, usually it's a bad sign of of 4:02:42.160 --> 4:02:45.280 like a political party. Usually it's just like, yeah, political 4:02:45.320 --> 4:02:48.160 parties when they do that usually leads to bad things. Um. 4:02:48.760 --> 4:02:51.480 We are going to talk about one kind of wrapping 4:02:51.560 --> 4:02:54.400 up here. We'anna talking about one Ontario People's Party candidate 4:02:54.560 --> 4:02:58.720 named Mario Greco, who was a another another high school 4:02:58.760 --> 4:03:03.360 teacher UM and still proclaimed game developer UM of a 4:03:03.480 --> 4:03:06.120 few years ago. I I see Chriss Wincent because like 4:03:06.720 --> 4:03:09.640 you know, this can't lead to good tis the gamers 4:03:09.760 --> 4:03:13.040 it can't be good. So A few years ago, Greco 4:03:13.240 --> 4:03:18.400 made a video game called Happy Culture Shootout UM. Quoting 4:03:18.400 --> 4:03:21.800 an article from Press Progress dot c A Happy Culture 4:03:21.840 --> 4:03:24.280 Shootout is a Space Invaders style game that allows players 4:03:24.320 --> 4:03:27.320 to control spaceship that shoots laser beams at caricatures of 4:03:27.440 --> 4:03:30.600 various identity groups. Quote. This game is about an alien 4:03:30.720 --> 4:03:33.480 order to invade Earth and transport all humans to happy Land, 4:03:33.560 --> 4:03:36.280 Greco says on his personal website, which includes other games 4:03:36.360 --> 4:03:39.080 that he authored, like Die Mare, which is about a young, 4:03:39.120 --> 4:03:42.960 misunderstood hero who sees to liberate post war Germany. UM 4:03:44.000 --> 4:03:46.880 Boy in a in a sist in a since tell 4:03:46.960 --> 4:03:49.880 did video obtained by Press Progress. The People's Party Canada 4:03:50.000 --> 4:03:53.640 delivered a presentation to university students several years ago, offering 4:03:53.800 --> 4:03:58.240 his post mortem on the game. Um Reco expressed surprise 4:03:58.320 --> 4:04:01.400 that his students and faculty reacted negatively to the game, 4:04:01.640 --> 4:04:04.120 with one calling it the most racist game I've ever played. 4:04:04.480 --> 4:04:06.920 Greco says his game is not racist in the slightest, 4:04:07.120 --> 4:04:09.600 noting that he made fun of his own Italian heritage. 4:04:10.400 --> 4:04:12.720 He also claimed that some students thought his gay Pride 4:04:12.760 --> 4:04:17.320 parade level was hilarious. My friends and I love people 4:04:17.400 --> 4:04:19.360 of all cultures, and we also love humor of all 4:04:19.440 --> 4:04:22.960 types that includes harmless racist jokes. Greco said in the video. 4:04:23.640 --> 4:04:25.280 The game was intended to make a joke about how 4:04:25.360 --> 4:04:27.680 ridiculous cultural stereotypes are, so we can laugh about it 4:04:27.720 --> 4:04:30.960 together and move on with our lives. UM. During the presentation, 4:04:31.000 --> 4:04:34.520 the People's Party candidate offered a interesting side note about 4:04:34.560 --> 4:04:38.760 the games Israel level. According according to Greco, a faculty 4:04:38.800 --> 4:04:41.760 member at the university strongly recommended that he removed Jewish 4:04:41.880 --> 4:04:44.440 stereotypes from the game. He was like, no, get rid 4:04:44.440 --> 4:04:47.440 of it immediately. Don't have any religious content whatsoever. I 4:04:47.520 --> 4:04:51.640 know that subject is very, very touchy. So yeah, this 4:04:51.840 --> 4:04:55.360 is just a game where you race shoot to minority people. UM. Anyway. 4:04:55.480 --> 4:04:59.440 In twenty six and Greco posted a photo on Facebook 4:04:59.560 --> 4:05:01.560 of an el stration of Pepe the Frog, which he 4:05:01.680 --> 4:05:03.880 said was drawn by one of his students in in 4:05:04.240 --> 4:05:08.000 the white board of his York Region high school. UM. 4:05:08.240 --> 4:05:11.520 Peppe had a little speech bubble that said free Kakistan 4:05:13.080 --> 4:05:19.680 great yea so now Nazis so Currently, Greco was spending 4:05:19.720 --> 4:05:22.520 his time tweeting about critical race theory and trying to 4:05:22.640 --> 4:05:25.360 get into office under the People's Party banner. UM. In 4:05:25.480 --> 4:05:29.400 his Twitter bio, he calls himself an egalitarian, libertarian nationalist 4:05:29.880 --> 4:05:33.400 and he still also teaches computer science at Ontario Higher 4:05:34.320 --> 4:05:39.080 call themselves fascists. I know it's it's not fun. These 4:05:39.120 --> 4:05:43.520 people are all all for the worst most scum. UM. 4:05:44.320 --> 4:05:47.440 And one one more thing before we sign off. UM. 4:05:47.760 --> 4:05:51.320 Last month, right before the September election, I was forwarded 4:05:51.400 --> 4:05:55.760 some pictures of some People's Party of Canada posters and 4:05:55.880 --> 4:05:59.240 flyers put up linking to their campaign website that someone 4:05:59.720 --> 4:06:04.000 came across UM around town, not not Portland's, like somewhere 4:06:04.000 --> 4:06:07.960 in Canada. UM. Under the PPC logo there was you know, 4:06:08.480 --> 4:06:11.560 pictures of people's faces and big black text that said 4:06:12.000 --> 4:06:18.200 it's okay to be white, right bad. So that's the 4:06:18.240 --> 4:06:23.160 liberal utopia of Canada, everybody. UM. And basically, like the 4:06:23.200 --> 4:06:24.920 reason why I want to put these episodes together is because, 4:06:24.920 --> 4:06:26.280 like we we lots of like, you know, we make 4:06:26.320 --> 4:06:28.200 a lot of jokes about, you know, escaping to Canada 4:06:28.240 --> 4:06:30.120 as the States gets too fascist, and I just want 4:06:30.160 --> 4:06:32.840 to like say, like I'm not saying Canada's get at 4:06:32.880 --> 4:06:35.400 the same rate, but Canada is not immune to the 4:06:35.480 --> 4:06:39.320 same thing, like it's it's it's, it's it's you can't 4:06:39.520 --> 4:06:44.840 you can't run away from authoritarianism by moving, yeah to 4:06:44.920 --> 4:06:48.200 a country with no history of authoritarianism, like I don't know, Germany, 4:06:48.960 --> 4:06:51.560 uh huh. Yeah. And I think the everything is important 4:06:51.560 --> 4:06:54.240 with with Canada particularly is that like Canada is like 4:06:54.480 --> 4:06:57.320 affected by American political trends. And you see this absolutely 4:06:57.680 --> 4:06:59.360 like like one of one of the things that I 4:06:59.400 --> 4:07:01.200 remember looking now when I was when I was looking 4:07:01.240 --> 4:07:03.640 into sort of uh if you look at the history 4:07:03.720 --> 4:07:05.960 of like anti Asian riots for example, So there's a 4:07:06.040 --> 4:07:07.680 huge wave and night No. Seven that goes like it 4:07:07.680 --> 4:07:09.200 goes all the way up the West Coast, a lot 4:07:09.280 --> 4:07:12.160 of them, and it ends in Toronto. Yeah, a lot 4:07:12.280 --> 4:07:14.240 of you know. Yeah, and you see you see that 4:07:14.360 --> 4:07:16.880 like and you see that like today to where it's like, yeah, 4:07:16.960 --> 4:07:20.480 the Toronto I think has the highest rate of anti 4:07:20.560 --> 4:07:24.120 Asian attacks like in North America. That's not pretty impressive 4:07:24.160 --> 4:07:27.200 considering like the absolute ship show going on in like 4:07:27.640 --> 4:07:30.120 New York, in l A and Seattle, and it's like, no, 4:07:30.240 --> 4:07:35.160 Toronto's worse. No, It's it's real bad. There's I talk 4:07:35.200 --> 4:07:37.720 a lot about how the far right's getting a lot, 4:07:37.880 --> 4:07:40.560 a lot more, a lot stronger of an influence in Alberta, 4:07:40.920 --> 4:07:43.600 and it is spreading into other eastern eastern provinces, not 4:07:43.840 --> 4:07:46.000 just inside Quebec. You know, there was the insult attack 4:07:46.080 --> 4:07:48.040 in Toronto a few years ago that killed like, I 4:07:48.080 --> 4:07:50.160 think like a dozen people. Of course, there was the 4:07:50.200 --> 4:07:53.320 Quebec mosque shooting. There's been a lot of these kind 4:07:53.360 --> 4:07:55.760 of things popping off, and you know, there's there's even 4:07:55.840 --> 4:07:58.960 more starting in like British Columbia as well, which is 4:07:59.080 --> 4:08:01.920 which has a decent far right kind of influence, at 4:08:01.960 --> 4:08:04.840 least on the eastern side of BC, um away from 4:08:04.880 --> 4:08:08.880 like Victoria and from Vancouver. UM. So, yeah, I just 4:08:08.920 --> 4:08:10.720 wanted to like place together and be like, hey, you know, 4:08:10.840 --> 4:08:13.120 it's it's worth looking at these countries that we usually 4:08:13.200 --> 4:08:16.120 view as you know, generally doing better and be like no, like, 4:08:16.480 --> 4:08:18.760 it's the same thing is happening there, and it's all 4:08:18.880 --> 4:08:22.000 it's all part of the same overarching slide right word 4:08:22.440 --> 4:08:24.960 that we've seen in both in the UK we were 4:08:25.000 --> 4:08:27.560 even seeing it now in Germany. We're seeing it, you know, 4:08:27.680 --> 4:08:30.240 in the obviously the States under Trump, and in Canada, 4:08:30.360 --> 4:08:32.880 even though the liberals have won the past few elections. 4:08:33.240 --> 4:08:36.560 It's still scooting right word. So yeah, I just wanted 4:08:36.600 --> 4:08:38.560 to put this thing together. If you want to keep 4:08:38.600 --> 4:08:40.640 up to date on Canadian stuff, you can check out 4:08:40.720 --> 4:08:44.440 the Canadian Antihit network, which does work tracking extremism in Canada. 4:08:45.680 --> 4:08:51.120 And yeah, that is ah, that is what I put together, Sparrison. Yeah, 4:08:51.160 --> 4:08:55.360 you're welcoming, You're welcome. Well, that's the episode that's gonna 4:08:55.440 --> 4:08:57.400 do it for us here, and it could happen here today, 4:08:57.760 --> 4:09:00.680 come back tomorrow or you know when ever, and we'll 4:09:00.720 --> 4:09:03.880 talk about another part of the world. Maybe I don't 4:09:03.920 --> 4:09:07.880 know Portugal. Fuck it, I don't have stuff pulled up 4:09:07.880 --> 4:09:11.400 for parture life. You have to me by tomorrow. No, 4:09:11.760 --> 4:09:14.920 that's what we're doing now. Follow us on Twitter, on 4:09:15.000 --> 4:09:16.960 Instagram and it could happen here. Pot Nicols on media 4:09:17.040 --> 4:09:25.680 leave five star reviews, whatever, goodbye. Hey, We'll be back 4:09:25.760 --> 4:09:28.920 Monday with more episodes every week from now until the 4:09:29.000 --> 4:09:31.880 heat death of the Universe. It could happen here is 4:09:31.920 --> 4:09:34.600 a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 4:09:34.640 --> 4:09:37.520 cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 4:09:37.680 --> 4:09:39.440 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 4:09:39.440 --> 4:09:42.800 Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 4:09:42.840 --> 4:09:45.520 find sources for it could happen here. Updated monthly at 4:09:45.560 --> 4:09:48.760 cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. 4:09:50.000 --> 4:09:53.840 On April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and 4:09:53.920 --> 4:09:57.280 killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray 4:09:57.440 --> 4:10:03.200 was arrested. Case closed right. James Sylvy was upon for 4:10:03.440 --> 4:10:06.920 the official story. Some of the evidence, as far as 4:10:07.000 --> 4:10:10.920 I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is 4:10:11.000 --> 4:10:14.920 the MLK Tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen 4:10:15.040 --> 4:10:18.160 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 4:10:18.200 --> 4:10:23.760 you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. 4:10:24.320 --> 4:10:26.600 Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the 4:10:26.640 --> 4:10:30.520 mob run Chicago. He bribed judges and even helped a 4:10:30.600 --> 4:10:33.800 hit man walk free until one day when he started 4:10:33.840 --> 4:10:36.960 talking with the FBI and promised that he could take 4:10:37.040 --> 4:10:39.920 the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to 4:10:39.960 --> 4:10:42.560 figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. 4:10:43.200 --> 4:10:45.560 Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, 4:10:45.640 --> 4:10:51.880 Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure 4:10:51.920 --> 4:10:54.560 to check out Drink Champs, your number one music podcast 4:10:54.640 --> 4:10:57.360 on the Black Effect podcast network host n O r 4:10:57.400 --> 4:10:59.160 E and d J E f N sat down with 4:10:59.280 --> 4:11:02.000 artists and icon on Yea, which Vulture called one of 4:11:03.000 --> 4:11:07.080 most significant interviews. I literally had to go like Thanos, 4:11:07.120 --> 4:11:08.520 and I don't want to have to be the villain. 4:11:08.800 --> 4:11:11.600 But when I went and did the Donda thing, he 4:11:11.920 --> 4:11:15.360 returned and everybody had to sit back and watch the 4:11:15.440 --> 4:11:18.360 real leader. Check out drink Champ's conversation with Yea and 4:11:18.480 --> 4:11:21.320 many more legendary artists each and every Friday on the 4:11:21.400 --> 4:11:24.200 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen 4:11:24.280 --> 4:11:25.320 to your favorite shows.