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Speaker 1: Make sure to check out Drink Champs, your number one

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Speaker 1: But when I went and did the Donda thing, Yea

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Raffi is the voice of some

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Speaker 1: of the happiest songs of our generation, Babyta So, who

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Speaker 1: After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls

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Speaker 1: of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach

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Speaker 1: Pit on the podcast nine O two one o MG.

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Speaker 1: Visit Jenny Garth and Tory Spelling for a rewatch of

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Speaker 1: the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh.

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Speaker 1: From the very beginning, we get to tell the fans

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Speaker 1: all of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen,

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know. This is a compiletion episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen here,

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Speaker 1: a podcast that is on the cycle of being sort

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Speaker 1: of Okayley introduced. When this episode goes out, it will

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Speaker 1: be Indigenous People's Day and so to to talk about

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Speaker 1: that more where we're gonna talk to Dalia Killsback, who

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Speaker 1: is a member of the Northern Chyenne, has Northern Cheyenne

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Speaker 1: tribal citizenship, and has sort of studied and worked in

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Speaker 1: federal India tribal policy. Dahlia, Hello, how how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Thank you for inviting me here today.

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Speaker 1: Of course Garrison is also here. Garrison Hello, Hello. I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm currently also doing writing about indigenous stuff, but within

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Speaker 1: the context of Canada, which people should will probably here

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Speaker 1: later this week. UM. So yeah, I guess first thing

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about is a little bit is

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Speaker 1: about what Indigenous People's Day is and why it is

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Speaker 1: that and not the other thing. Um. Yeah. So Indigenous

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Speaker 1: People's Day, um, as many people know, is replacing I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna say it, Chris chrispher Columbus Day. Um, that is

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Speaker 1: still like a federal holiday, but multiple cities and states

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Speaker 1: have opted to use Indigenous People's Day instead. Um. And

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Speaker 1: the reasoning for that is acknowledging the atrocities that were

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Speaker 1: committed by Christopher Columbus, who first of all, did not

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Speaker 1: discover America. UM, but um continue to um not only

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Speaker 1: use slavery, but UM commit different forms of genocide, rape, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: all of these terrible atrocities. And so rather than celebrating

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Speaker 1: UM somebody like that UM, Indigenous people Day UM has

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Speaker 1: been implemented in order to recognize the people who are

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Speaker 1: actually here first, UM and indigenous people's across the America's there, histories, cultures,

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Speaker 1: and contributions. Yeah, Columbus, real piece of ship, worst Christopher, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really cannot be overstated how bad that guy was,

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Speaker 1: even even you know, even people in that era who

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Speaker 1: had committed their own genocides like Isabelle and Ferdinand, who

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Speaker 1: you know, expelled the Jews from Spain. Where it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, if once you've reached the sentence expelled the

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Speaker 1: Jews from X like you you're are You're already in

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Speaker 1: the ship list of the worst people in human history.

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Speaker 1: And even they saw what Columbus was doing, it was

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Speaker 1: like what on earth? Bad bad guy, bad name. Things

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Speaker 1: are going to continue to go badly? And yeah, that

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Speaker 1: that was an everything that I wanted to talk about,

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Speaker 1: which is federal Indian policy. And you know this this

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Speaker 1: is an incredibly broad This is an incredibly broad area

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Speaker 1: spanning like three hundred years. So we're not gonna be

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Speaker 1: able to go into like an enormous amount of depth

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Speaker 1: in it, but I think it's important that people have

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Speaker 1: an understanding of, I mean, ages what the US did

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Speaker 1: and how everyone else has had the sort of deal

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Speaker 1: with it. And then also the fact that this is

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Speaker 1: something that changes over time and has has looked different,

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Speaker 1: It's looked it's been bad in different ways. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so when talking about federal Indian policy, I always like

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Speaker 1: to contextualize it within a larger um sort of like

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Speaker 1: euro American like teleology of colonial conquests, and then moving

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Speaker 1: on to set where colonialism and where we are with

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Speaker 1: federal federal Indian policy currently. Um. So, how do we

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Speaker 1: connect Christopher Columbus to where we are currently? Um? And

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Speaker 1: this is the history of federal Indian policy and Western

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Speaker 1: legal discourse and how UM European powers throughout history have

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Speaker 1: defined what it means to be an Indian person in

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Speaker 1: relationship to UM Indigenous people's rights to their own land

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Speaker 1: and to self governance. UM. So, when we're looking at

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Speaker 1: the different periods of federal Indian policy, UM, prior to

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Speaker 1: their being the United States government, we have the colonial period, um,

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Speaker 1: which is fourteen ninety two to seventeen seventies six. UM.

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Speaker 1: This is how federal Indian policy illegal scholars divide that UM.

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Speaker 1: And it's really important to kind of give the difference

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Speaker 1: between what is um a colonial state versus a settler

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Speaker 1: colonial state when you're talking about not just the United

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Speaker 1: States government but also the Canadian government and UM, different

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Speaker 1: governments globally. UM. But I want to talk just a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what I've by the difference between a

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Speaker 1: colonial government and a Suttler colonial government, because they're tied together. UM.

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Speaker 1: So by a Suttler colonial government, I mean what I

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Speaker 1: mean is that it is defined by the d territorialization

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Speaker 1: of indigenous population populations. And so rather than in a

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Speaker 1: colonial government as you had with Christopher Columbus and the

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Speaker 1: Spanish and with the English, etcetera, UM is rather than

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Speaker 1: a state and sovereignty being conceived as all these resources

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Speaker 1: are going back to the metrical all these resources are

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Speaker 1: going back to England or to Spain, etcetera. And colonial

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Speaker 1: occupation is in is um conceptualized within this way in

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Speaker 1: settler colonial governments, UM, the colonists come to these lands

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Speaker 1: and stay and they're what they define a sovereignty is

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Speaker 1: within this land that they define now as their own.

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Speaker 1: So and in order for that process to happen, UM,

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Speaker 1: there needs to be different forms of genocide of the

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Speaker 1: indigenous populations. And so that's what we saw with Christopher

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Speaker 1: Columbus and throughout history, UM was just the depletion of

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Speaker 1: a lot of our indigenous populous UM. And so when

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Speaker 1: I mean about the United States UM being a settler

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Speaker 1: colonial state, I mean that this is current and ongoing.

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Speaker 1: And so when we talk about federal Indian policy, UM,

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Speaker 1: Federal Indian policy is always in this conversation with what

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Speaker 1: started with Christopher Columbus as the doctrine of discovery and UM.

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Speaker 1: So that's how we define the colonial period. And feel

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Speaker 1: free to like stop me and ask me questions. Else

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to try to move quickly because there's

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Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, I think we probably should briefly talk

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Speaker 1: about what the doctory discovery is, um lacy before we

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Speaker 1: get to sit at the martial trilogy and stuff. For sure,

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Speaker 1: what does that actually mean legally? Um? So legally, UM,

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Speaker 1: it's the discovery of a quote unquote New found Land,

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Speaker 1: UM by European colonial forces. And the reason why it's

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Speaker 1: called the doctrine of discovery, was that indigenous peoples on

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Speaker 1: these lands were deemed unable to govern themselves and they

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Speaker 1: did not know how to utilize their land up to

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Speaker 1: the definition of what the European powers thought UM land

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Speaker 1: use was that UM, indigenous peoples didn't have the same

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Speaker 1: concept of property UM, and same with their relationship with

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Speaker 1: resources and resource extraction. So when um, Christopher Columbus and

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Speaker 1: all of these other colonizer as clunky clunkyst doors came

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Speaker 1: to the quote unquote new land, UM, they saw all

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Speaker 1: of this rich, plentiful resource and thoughts of themselves, Well,

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Speaker 1: obviously these people don't know what they're doing because there's

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Speaker 1: just so much they have not done anything with it. UM.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to take this back to two hours

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Speaker 1: because obviously their inferior beings and don't know what property

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Speaker 1: is so UM. Legally, UM, the doctrine of Discovery conveyed

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Speaker 1: legal title to an ownership of American soil to European

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Speaker 1: nations UM, a title that devolved to the United States

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Speaker 1: and so UM. This definition is expansive UM, and expansive

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Speaker 1: discovery implies that Native nations have a right to lands

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Speaker 1: as occupants or possessors, but they are incompetent to manage

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Speaker 1: those lands and need a quote unquote benevolent guardian such

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Speaker 1: as a federal government who holds legal title. And um.

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Speaker 1: So when we're talking about this legal title, it devolves

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Speaker 1: to the United States later on um in history, after

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Speaker 1: the American Revolution, um. And so rather than being colonial

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Speaker 1: states um as the United States like thirteen original colonies,

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Speaker 1: given um, the American Revolution and its own constitution and

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Speaker 1: its creation of itself as a nation state, then that

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Speaker 1: turns into a settler colonial government. Yeah. I think we can,

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Speaker 1: ye know, we can get to what happens next then,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, yeah, you have you have this elaborate legal

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Speaker 1: framework that lets you steal people's land and murder them

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Speaker 1: and then control it. And then the outgrowth of that

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Speaker 1: is this sort of weird event where the colonies go

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Speaker 1: into rebellion and suddenly, yeah, there's there's not a colony.

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Speaker 1: They're not colonies anymore. They just are the state. And

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Speaker 1: so yeah, about what happens next after the sort of

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Speaker 1: formation of the United States. So after the formation of

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Speaker 1: the United States, UM, so we have this period the

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Speaker 1: American Revolution. It's all not really diving into It is

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Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six to seventeen eighty nine, and it's called

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Speaker 1: the Confederation period. But next we have the Trade and

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Speaker 1: Intercourse Act era, which is from seventeen eighty nine to

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirty five. And so this is defined with the

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Speaker 1: United States Constitution and Congress's exclusive right to regulate trade

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Speaker 1: relations and make lands since the land secessions and enter

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Speaker 1: into treaties with tribes. So this is a treaty making

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Speaker 1: era with the tribes that only the United States federal

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Speaker 1: government is able to And there's a distinction there because

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Speaker 1: there had been a lot of contestation between state and

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Speaker 1: the federal government as to who is going to now

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Speaker 1: deal with these, um, these nations that are with our

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Speaker 1: within our own settler colonial borders. So whose job is

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Speaker 1: that to solve this issue? Um? So within the United

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Speaker 1: States Constitution, there are three clauses that define the United

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Speaker 1: States legal relationship to American Indians, and so these are

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Speaker 1: the treaty making clause, the commerce clause, and the property clause. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so this this movement from just relying on the

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Speaker 1: doctrine of discovery and treaty making processes between different European

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Speaker 1: powers now is between the United States federal government and tribes.

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Speaker 1: And so what this does is now tribes are located

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Speaker 1: within the United States territory, and this places Indians within

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Speaker 1: the boundaries and jurisdiction of the United States, and now

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Speaker 1: there're a matter of domestic interest something. It leads it

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Speaker 1: to one of the sort of complicated questions that the

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Speaker 1: changes to this whole era, which is about what does

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Speaker 1: sovereignty mean for these tribes and to what extent to

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Speaker 1: the even continue to possess it, and how does that

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Speaker 1: even sort of how does that work if you have

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Speaker 1: when you have this new state that's sort of just

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Speaker 1: has his clan control here, right, And also during this

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Speaker 1: period UM, well, well later on when we have um

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Speaker 1: started jumping ahead of myself, when we have the extermination

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Speaker 1: of the treaty making process, and this completely removes seeing

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Speaker 1: tribes as independent sovereign nations. UM. So I think that

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Speaker 1: will kind of get more into that later. But the

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Speaker 1: thing with federal Indian policy UM is that it's sort

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Speaker 1: of self prophesizing. So as settlers are moving across America, UM,

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Speaker 1: the United States government also has to create these policies

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Speaker 1: UM in order to legalize these land cessations and movements.

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Speaker 1: And a pattern that we do see here UM throughout

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Speaker 1: history and throughout time is that the United States federal government,

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Speaker 1: as a settler state is um over the rights of

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Speaker 1: over the UM, rights to land, and rights of indigenous

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Speaker 1: peoples themselves. You have a priority of the settler state

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Speaker 1: in order to acquire land. So that a lot of

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Speaker 1: the reason why UM later these treaties will be broken, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: is because settlers are moving into these lands and the

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Speaker 1: United States is then breaking these treaties in order to

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Speaker 1: UM have more more land, more land secessions. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: laws are just following the violence, and it's just becomes

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Speaker 1: a sort of retroactive justification for yeah. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a self justifying sort of sovereignty. So this is the

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Speaker 1: Removal period and what a lot of people may have

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Speaker 1: heard of. So it's from five to eighteen sixty one,

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Speaker 1: and what we have is the extinguishment of Indian title

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Speaker 1: to eastern lands and the removal of Indian tribes westward.

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Speaker 1: So UM. One of the most notable acts is the

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Speaker 1: Removal Act, which was authorized by President Andrew Jackson, which

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Speaker 1: moved Um Indians from the east to the west of

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Speaker 1: the Mississippi River into what was called Indian territory UM.

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Speaker 1: And what brought about this UM Federal Federal Act UM

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Speaker 1: was a series of three foundational statutes within Federal Indian

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Speaker 1: Policy UM, dictated by Chief Justice John Marshall. So first

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Speaker 1: we have Johnson B. Macintosh Cherokee Nation be Georgia and

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Speaker 1: Worcester be Georgia. And I won't go into UM too

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Speaker 1: much detail, but what this these essentially UM did and

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Speaker 1: legally defined tribes as being domestic dependent nations. And so

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Speaker 1: it clarified more that again tribal nations are underneath the

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Speaker 1: federal government's overview, not the states. So yeah, it placed

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Speaker 1: tribes above state jurisdiction. And what this was trying to

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Speaker 1: do was UM solve some issues that tribes such as

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee Nation had with different states when it came

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Speaker 1: to land and UM jurisdiction over suid land. UM. But

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Speaker 1: that is kind of the basis of a lot of

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Speaker 1: federal Indian policy and still remains true day. And what

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Speaker 1: is notable UM in each one of these statutes UM,

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Speaker 1: I believe, particularly in Worcester the Georgia, although it seems

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Speaker 1: that it was supporting tribal sovereignty in them and that

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Speaker 1: they were above state jurisdiction. A lot of these um

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Speaker 1: statute sided racist President and the doctrine of Discovery. So

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Speaker 1: what you see for federal Indian policy is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the fount well all the foundation for federal

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Speaker 1: Indian policy based on President is the doctrine of Discovery,

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Speaker 1: which is reliant on the idea that American Indians were

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Speaker 1: savages and needed um federal benevolence and um paternalism in

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Speaker 1: order to regulate their own affairs. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's well, okay, we should probably not just immediately get

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Speaker 1: to allotment, but yeah, because there's this, there's this, there's

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Speaker 1: also yeah, this is also the period of use. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The thing you were talking about earlier is the thing

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Speaker 1: you helped me know about, which is, okay, it's not

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Speaker 1: true to say this is when this starts, but this

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Speaker 1: is Indian Removal Act, Trail of Tears territory. And one

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Speaker 1: thing that you know, I think one of one of

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Speaker 1: the sort of running themes of this is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the law in this context is just sort of

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Speaker 1: becomes a sort of retroactive excuse to do whatever needs

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Speaker 1: to be done from the perspective of quote unquote of

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Speaker 1: the sort of of the settler state to just take

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Speaker 1: all of this land. Yeah. And I think maybe like

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Speaker 1: one of the keystones of this is Andrew Jackson just

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Speaker 1: straight up tellings between court to funk Off so that

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Speaker 1: he can do so he can do with trail of tears. Yeah. UM.

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Speaker 1: So the Removal Act happened after all of these statutes

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Speaker 1: that you already had that supported UM federal Indian sovereignty.

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Speaker 1: And so the Cherokees in Georgia were one of the

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Speaker 1: tribes that were removed. UM. And so you kind of

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Speaker 1: see what you talked about, the the retrograde kind of

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Speaker 1: justifications for said removal to spite UM the statutes that

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Speaker 1: are there. So although that like Marshall UM in Worcester

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Speaker 1: b Georgia determined that the State of Georgia did not

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Speaker 1: have jurisdiction over Cherokee territory, all this territory although this

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Speaker 1: territory was in the state's borders. UM. Later on you

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Speaker 1: see with the Removal Act that although these statutes are

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Speaker 1: still president in Federalian policy, those were noll in order

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Speaker 1: for UM there to be more UM expansion of settlers

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Speaker 1: within these areas. So when it was decided that oh, wait,

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Speaker 1: we do need this land and we don't actually want

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Speaker 1: these Indians here, Let's put them to the side, over

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Speaker 1: past the Mississippi so that they're out of sight, out

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Speaker 1: of mind. Right, So we see more of this um

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Speaker 1: justification for settler expansion. And so again we bring back

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Speaker 1: to these themes of like settler colonialism and or are

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Speaker 1: too um kind of gain more of this land. And

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Speaker 1: a lot of these statutes are still cited the doctrine

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Speaker 1: of discovery in them and rather than supporting tribal policy,

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Speaker 1: the relationship between the United States federal government and American

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Speaker 1: Indians um was not based on the rights of Indians,

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Speaker 1: but more that they can't they can't govern themselves, right

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Speaker 1: and so so and that's the whole issue is like

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Speaker 1: people are like they don't know what they're doing, so

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Speaker 1: we're gonna push them and like take their land again.

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Speaker 1: So I I don't know if you want me to

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Speaker 1: go too much into the trail of tears, but um,

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Speaker 1: you're seeing a lot of patterns here, I think different

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Speaker 1: forms of genocide, different forms of taking land. And this

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Speaker 1: was this is all around the same time as the

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Speaker 1: Indian acting Canada as well, which was did a very

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Speaker 1: similar thing, especially starting in the starting in the twenties

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Speaker 1: century as well, with the like expansion of the like

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Speaker 1: assimilation programs. Yeah, and I think I guess the one

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Speaker 1: only thing I want to point out about this is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, so one of one of the things that

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Speaker 1: happens trailers here is at the Streme Court like tells

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Speaker 1: Jackson that he can't do this, and she actually just

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Speaker 1: does it anyways. And I think that's a very interesting

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Speaker 1: important moment because you know, this is this is this

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Speaker 1: thing right where the federal government can tell there's a

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Speaker 1: Preme Court to funk off, right, and there's nothing that

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Speaker 1: Streme Court could do about it. And if you look

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Speaker 1: at what they did it to do, the thing they

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Speaker 1: did it to do was genocide. And it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's just I think it's a very sort of

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Speaker 1: I don't know, this incredibly grim like you know, encapsulation

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Speaker 1: of like what this state actually is, which is the

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Speaker 1: sort of genocide machine and whatever sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: this is what sovereignty is, right, the ability to break

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Speaker 1: your own rules to sort of main instit or to

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Speaker 1: maintain the system. So you know, you you break your

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Speaker 1: own laws and you know, as we're gonna get to

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Speaker 1: in a second, like you break your own treaties continuous

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Speaker 1: and you do this because you know, the ganslit massion

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Speaker 1: has to keep moving right And Um. There's a couple

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Speaker 1: of federal and new policy theorists um Bindeler Jr. Who's

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Speaker 1: one of the most famous ones, and David E. Wilkins

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Speaker 1: who talks about how there's no need for checks and

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Speaker 1: balances within the federal Ondian policy system. So you have

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Speaker 1: Congress that is able to um pass whatever act they want,

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Speaker 1: and and then you also have the Supreme Court, and

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Speaker 1: then you also have executive action. But it wasn't really

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Speaker 1: delineated that well um within especially when it comes to

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Speaker 1: this period as to who is going to be dealing

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Speaker 1: with the Indians kind of thing. Um. And so this

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Speaker 1: kind of confusion and not really completely defining what it

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Speaker 1: means to be a domestic dependent nation, I think really

357
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Speaker 1: just goes to show how much of a fragile edifice

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Speaker 1: settler um colonial policy is, for it is within the system. Um.

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00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: But again moving on, it comes back again to land.

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Speaker 1: So the reservation area era in eighteen sixty one to

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty seven UM has you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: westward expansion of non Indians UM settlers, specifically to California.

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Speaker 1: You also have the creation of Indian reservations and resulting

364
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Speaker 1: Indian wars UM. Uh. So during this era what you

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Speaker 1: see a lot out of UM are different types of

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Speaker 1: attempts that assimilation UM and a lot of warfare. So

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of the Plains tribes my tribe

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Speaker 1: for instance, UM, that are going through all of these

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Speaker 1: battles fighting UM forced removal onto reservations UM. One of

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Speaker 1: the most famous ones was UM the Bad of Greasy

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Speaker 1: Grass or a Little Big Horn UM where General Custer

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00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: was killed by Sue Cheyennes and Arapahos, and different instances

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Speaker 1: of battles such as those, and also where a lot

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Speaker 1: of tribes UM were forcibly removed to era areas that

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Speaker 1: they weren't originally from. So like how the Ripees were

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Speaker 1: moved to Oklahoma, there was attempts of my tribe, for instance,

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Speaker 1: more than Cheyenne to be moved down to Oklahoma as well,

378
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Speaker 1: and that's why there's some Southern Cheyennes in Oklahoma, and

379
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: then My tribes and Northern Shiance in Montana. Another UM in.

380
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Speaker 1: Another thing that is happening during this period are boarding

381
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: schools UM the boarding school era. So this attempt at

382
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: assimilation through education UM, and assimilation is also UM within

383
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Speaker 1: within the settler colonial kind of structure. It's defined as

384
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: a process where indigenous people end up UM conforming to

385
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: different constructed notions of UM settler norms UM. So if

386
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: they're not absorbed within the state completely, then their attempted

387
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: attempt to be assimilated UM culturally UM through education, through languages,

388
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: in terms of economics and how you have a bunch

389
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: of different sort of bureaucratic structures on these reservations trying

390
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: to make tribal governments appear to be UM or constructed

391
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: as as settler colonial governments are UM. So maybe it's

392
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Speaker 1: the three branches UM in ways that aren't just compatible

393
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: with different tribes culturally. And you also have the attemptive

394
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Speaker 1: eradication of different kind of spiritual and cultural practices is

395
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: and a lot of Christianity be course on to different

396
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: people and just kind of terrible things that UM. I

397
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: think more and more people are becoming aware of due

398
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: to due to current movements, but we'll get into that

399
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: more later. Do we want to talk about a lot

400
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: and briefly because if I remember quickly, this is in

401
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: the same period, yes, a lotment period and UM course assimilation.

402
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: So this is like eighteen seventy one to nineteen thirty four,

403
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: and so this is the end of the treaty making process.

404
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: So the whole idea of UM trying to force tribes

405
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: onto reservations and sign these treaties were too again take

406
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: land and make sure that the United States has more

407
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: land and all the land etcetera that they possibly have UM.

408
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: So at this end of treaty making UM, federal allotment

409
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: of Indian lands also happened in the UM the DAWs

410
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: Act UM. And so what this was was an attempt

411
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: to UM further shrink the reservation lands that tribes are

412
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: already guaranteed within treaties UM. So during this period, I

413
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: think that somewhere like nine million acres were UM taken

414
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: from travel reservations during the allotment process. So that what

415
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: the allotment process did was it counted each in every

416
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: individual Indian UM that was eligible. I think there were

417
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: adults UM. Yeah, adults that were eligible UM, and each

418
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: one of them were given a certain parcel of land

419
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: a certain number of acreage UM. And once all of

420
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: this land was calculated, what you had was an excess

421
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: of land quote unquote excess of land that the tribes

422
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: obviously didn't need because they had still too too many people.

423
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: And so what the excess of land um was utilized

424
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: force for pioneers and for settlers UM. If it didn't

425
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: go UM to the federal government, it was to um

426
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: incentivize settlers to colonized essentially centil on Indian lands. So

427
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: trying its hardest to not stay true to its treaty

428
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: making practices. I think everything goes interesting to me about

429
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: this is that like because one of the other goals

430
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: of this is to sort of like, oh is the

431
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: civilizing mission is like, yeah, we're going to turn them

432
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: into We're gonna turn these people into like like human farmers,

433
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: like true American finteersman or whatever. And it's just like

434
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work because economically it doesn't make any sense,

435
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: like breaking up all these like lands. It's like, it

436
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: doesn't you can't just give someone a small patch of

437
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: like shitty land and have them farm like this doesn't

438
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: like this, it doesn't it doesn't like they certainly tried

439
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: and the yeah, yeah, like that was one of the

440
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: main things. One of the main things in Canada was

441
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: about getting them to adopt like like European farming practices,

442
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: which which they already knew how to get their own food, right,

443
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: they were trying to change this whole system of of

444
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: of like of of food growth to to this like

445
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: to to this European way of of farming, and it

446
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: just and they were just forcing them to and there's yeah,

447
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: it's it's it gets, it gets, it gets super, it

448
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: gets super like dark and horrible. Once you like look

449
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: at like the letters that were being written by like

450
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: the heads of these programs, um, like you know, instructing

451
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: like these agents were stationed at these like reservation that

452
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: to like force people to be doing doing this horrible

453
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: farming for like all day every day. And I think,

454
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: you know the sign that this is like like this

455
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: is this is so bad that even the US government

456
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: eventually is like wait this this like this is fucked

457
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: up and doesn't work. So I think that's yeah, your

458
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: transition to sort of like the next phase, I guess, yeah,

459
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: a very short phase. Um. Yeah, So the next phase

460
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: um is the Indian reorganization Act. And so this only

461
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: lasted six years from nineteen thirty four in nineteen forty UM,

462
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: so this is when allotment ended. As you said, the

463
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: United States government was like, wait, this isn't working. Um,

464
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: what else can we do with the Indians aren't dying off,

465
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: they're not assimilating, they're not a culturating. We don't know

466
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: what to do with them. Um, so maybe we'll We'll

467
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: have them adopt these constitutions and a lot of them

468
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: were just templates, so regardless of whether or not they

469
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: were um I think compatible with tribal different tribes way

470
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: of life, they were like, you have these constitutions. Now, um,

471
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: now you're you're a tribe and this is what each

472
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: tribe has to look like in order for us, the

473
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: federal government to recognize you as a legitimate entity. Uh

474
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: and um. And then so you have the establishment of

475
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: these um tribal governments that consist of tribal councils and

476
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: the business committees, etcetera. However, this period is fleeting, very fleeting. Um.

477
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: And next, um, you have the termination era. So this

478
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: is the period of time where the federal government, essentially

479
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: even more so, wants to just get rid of the

480
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: quote unquote Indian problem, which is the existence of indigenous

481
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: people's UM that are reminders to the government essentially that UM,

482
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: they are a settler colonial force and they don't know

483
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: what to do with us because they tried to commit genocide,

484
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: they try to remove us, etcetera, etcetera. It's still not working. UM.

485
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: They decided that our travel governments UM aren't aren't legitimate,

486
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: and they just decide, well, it's too much to try

487
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: to keep up with our treaties and what we promised

488
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: them when it comes to healthcare, education, housing, etcetera, etcetera.

489
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: How about we terminate our federal responsibility, our trust responsibility

490
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: that are delineated in federal in the policy and in

491
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: our treaties UM and give them off to this to

492
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: the states to decide what to do with. And so

493
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: during this period you see UM sort of the federal

494
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: um dissolution of some tribes such as the monomy Um

495
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: and other ones UM as well. So this is another

496
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: dark time. They're the dark times just keep on coming.

497
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: And what federal policy scholars have UM characterized federal around

498
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: policy as a pendulum, the swinging swinging from side to

499
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: side between this terminate this termination of tribes. So the

500
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: federal India government as trying to get rid of tribes,

501
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: especially as you can see in this era, and then

502
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: the pendulum of the other side of self determination. But

503
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: both of these are held within the context of goals

504
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: of assimilation. So, um, this is just another phase of terribleness. Well,

505
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: I think this this phase also like one thing I

506
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: think that also like is important people understand. Is it

507
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: like like it's not like people aren't fighting this like

508
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 1: the whole time. I mean even going like even going

509
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: back to the stuff the Seventh Cafrey, like the Seventh

510
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: Cavalry lose like bores Day lose bells all the time.

511
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: People are fighting constantly, and this is this period determination

512
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: period is also you see the rise of the American

513
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: Indian movements. Yeah, a lot of these periods can be

514
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: like dove into more and all of these different things. Um.

515
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: In every instance, in every instance of federal Indian policy,

516
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: you have resistance, which we are not covering here right now. Um,

517
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: but you have instances throughout history where indigenous peoples have

518
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: fought for their rights to land, to um, for their community,

519
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: to being sovereign nations, etcetera. And that's why the federal Indians,

520
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 1: the federal government not federal Indian government. The federal government

521
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: has not been able to eradicate us, much to their

522
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: dismay UM UM. And so now I'm going to switch

523
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: into the eraw that we are considered to be in,

524
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: which I have mentioned when I talked about the pendulum

525
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: of federal Indian policy. So now we are in the

526
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: self determination era UM, which began in ninety sixty two UM,

527
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: and we have UM the right it's characterized with the

528
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: revitalization of tribal entities. So UM going kind of back

529
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: to when there was the Indian Reorganization Acts that we

530
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: have our tribal councils UM. There's restoration of some tribes

531
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: under federal recognition who were terminated, again not all of them.

532
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: We also have the Indian Civil Rights Act, so this

533
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: this kind of guaranteed individual Indians UM some rights UM,

534
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: not just characterized by their tribes. Also the self determination policy,

535
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: so this is when UM Nixon condemned the termination policy

536
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: and gave more control to Indians rather than the Bureau

537
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: of Indian Fairs, which just a federal bureau and just

538
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: kind of like other policies that UM have given the

539
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: tribes more rights to UM German for themselves in their

540
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: own trust, their own people, UM to a certain degree

541
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: underneath the federal government as mess of dependent nations. And

542
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: again I I think that we have seen a lot

543
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: more movement, but within the context of being within a

544
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: settler colonial state. UM. It's always I think a possibility

545
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: that the federal Indian government, or the federal government I

546
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: keep saying Indian, the federal government will try UM to

547
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: take more and more. And I think UM, for instance,

548
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: when it comes to issues of fishing rights, issues of

549
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: UM hunting rights with states, not even just with the

550
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: federal government. So you have a lot of states throughout

551
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: throughout history but still ongoing UM that attempt to encroach

552
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: on tribal treaties UM. And again, treaties are the basis

553
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: of federal Indian policy. Without these treaties, that lands would

554
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: have never been succeeded to the United States. And so

555
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: UM there's just this sort of like legal legal conundrum

556
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: I would say, of where all these all treaties in

557
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: the history of the United States with Indian with Indian

558
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: tribes have been broken in some way, shape or form UM.

559
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: But still UM American Indians have to live on their

560
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: reservations instead of having their their land back. And so

561
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 1: nowadays a lot of movement has been towards um land

562
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: back what this means? What is this process? And I

563
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 1: think it means a lot of different things for different

564
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: people Indigenous people because again there's there's seventy four federally

565
00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: recognized tribes and so it's not one monolith of ideas

566
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: and monolith of the beliefs. But by just by saying

567
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: land back, that's like recognition that this is our this

568
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: was our land first, and you're not keeping your side

569
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: of the deal and never have been. Could you maybe

570
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: go a bit more into land back with the topic,

571
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: because like specifically, like the past five years, it has

572
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: really gain a lot more like um popularity as like

573
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: a slogan UM. But I think for a lot of

574
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people who chanted and here it don't

575
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: always really know exactly what it means. That there's a

576
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: lot of like mixed opinions on what it means. Um.

577
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: Of course, on like the more like reactionary side, it's

578
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: like people be like, what you're going to like kick

579
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: white people out of these areas, Like that's kind of

580
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: that's what a lot of like the reactionary takes on

581
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: land Back is. Um And I'm sure most people are

582
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast that's not what they think, um,

583
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: But they may not really know exactly what it means either. Um.

584
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: They may I think it sounds like a good idea,

585
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: but they're not quite sure what it is. Do you

586
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: mind kind of talking about how land back is like

587
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: developed as as an idea and what like what like

588
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: you mean by it personally? At least? Yeah, I think

589
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: I can talk about more about like what I mean

590
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: by it personally and what I've understood it to mean

591
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: to other people, because I think, um, land back itself,

592
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: it means like a lot of different things, and I

593
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: don't think that there has been a concrete kind of

594
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: idea of what it means. But I think a lot

595
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: of the movement, I want to contextualize it within a

596
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: lot of the sort of act activism that we've seen

597
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: in their recent years. UM. So, for instance, no Jack

598
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: all the Dakota Access pipeline in two thousand and sixteen,

599
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: and kind of I think that's one of the more

600
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: recent events that have really illustrated on a wide scale,

601
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: like globally about indigenous movements, UM, sovereignty movements, and especially

602
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: when it comes to environmental justice. But what you saw

603
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 1: there was encroachment on tribal treaty land within UM that

604
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: when it had to do with the Dakota Access pipeline. UM.

605
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: So although it didn't cross some of the current reservation borders,

606
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: it was in treaty land, you know that kind of thing.

607
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: The same the same thing was stop line three. How

608
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: it encroached on like the hunting land and the farmland

609
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: that was not technically in the like residential like like

610
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: um like like not in like the reservation area where

611
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: people live, but it's in the surrounding area that is

612
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: for hunting that is specified in the treaty. So people

613
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: trying to use these loopholes to get the pipelines through

614
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: right right. And so I think what you see is

615
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 1: a lot of solidarity across tribes because this is not new,

616
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: This has never been new, and a lot of abs

617
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: can relate to that. And what you've seen and what

618
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: I've hoped that I've highlighted throughout this kind of very

619
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: brief overview of federal ving policy is the different ways

620
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: that indigenous rights to land and sovereignty has been attacked

621
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: in different forms by settler and colonial governments. Um. And

622
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: I think that the day and age that we live

623
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: in now has allowed for um sort of more widespread solidarity,

624
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: especially over social media. UM. And so when we say

625
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: land back for me, how I interpret it as what

626
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: people mean when they're saying it is recognition of our

627
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: tribal sovereignty, of our right to this land that has

628
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: not been respected. And then I also think that it means, well,

629
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,879
Speaker 1: if these treaties aren't being respected, then how is this

630
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: treaty still UM valid? Right? How we aren't getting our

631
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: land back because they're not upholding your end of the deal.

632
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: While some people also might mean and recognize that this

633
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: whole United States government is a settler state right based

634
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: on the doctrine of discovery, which is based on denying

635
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 1: tribes and American Indians of their rights to this land. UM.

636
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 1: So some people might take it to this whole other

637
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: context of yeah, well maybe this is this is all

638
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: of our land, etcetera, etcetera. But in practice, what does

639
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: this look like? And I think in practice a lot

640
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: of people UM are seeing it with reparations or people

641
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: buying land back for tribes and giving it back to tribes.

642
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: And we have seen some of that or UM also

643
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: just people interrupting the narrative UM in their own mind

644
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: of their euro American identity, so not non UM American

645
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: Indians and primarily europe and settlers and their history of

646
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: their own families taking part of the settler colonial process,

647
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: and how has that UM what about their lands? There's

648
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: everyone who UM descends I guess from these these settlers,

649
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: and I want to be specific when I'm talking about

650
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: Euro American settlers um, UM and how they currently benefit

651
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 1: from these systems. And I think by saying land back, UM,

652
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: it's we're able to highlight this movement for tribal sovereignty

653
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: and recognition on a global scale instead of searching for

654
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: justice within the quote unquote like UM searching for justice

655
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: within the courts of the conqueror, How how do we

656
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: expect UM for the conqueror to be held accountable for

657
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: all of these atrocities, attempts at genocide, assimilation, et cetera.

658
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: By taking it more towards a global scale, such as

659
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: no adaptle highlighting these two other people as these are

660
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 1: injustices is UM, this is this is ongoing genocide. I

661
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: think that land back has many like a plethora of

662
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: meanings in the in that sense. Yeah. Yeah, I hope

663
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: that answers your question. I myself, UM might use it

664
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: in in some some different ways. Um, because land as

665
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: we conceive it to be property kind of grew that

666
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: concept grew in conversation with Euro American Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah,

667
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: conceptions of property. So I think that, um, moving forward

668
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: when we talk about de colonization as a process and

669
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: not like a metaphor, um that thinking of land back

670
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: not within that whole idea of your American property as well.

671
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of another thing to consider. Yeah, I

672
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: think I think Lena would just be a hold other

673
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: thing that will pay someone more qualified than our team

674
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: to talk about on this show. Um. Because yeah, that's

675
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,959
Speaker 1: definitely like you know, like all of the things we've

676
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: we've discussed, they deserve their own deep dives by people

677
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: that are uh not me, Robert and Chris. UM. Let's see,

678
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: is is there any kind of resources either books or

679
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: stuff online that you would recommend for people wanting to

680
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: learn more about this history? Um? And then any kind

681
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: of ways to I don't know, I guess show support

682
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: in these and these kind of like efforts that are

683
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, for sure. UM. So in terms of

684
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: resources and reading UM, I have read Lorenzo Verrocchini's UM

685
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: Settler book on Settler Colonialism. UM. That's really helpful when

686
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: you're trying to understand that framework in terms of getting

687
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: to know kind of or the basics of like current

688
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: UM issues impacting tribes UM. The National Congress of American

689
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: Indians does a lot of work on the federal level. UM.

690
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: If you want to talk more about UM kind of

691
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: lived current lived experiences of American Indians, there's illuminatives UM

692
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: and getting more involved in those as well. I think

693
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: that they have some tips, but I would recommend UM

694
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: everyone getting more familiar with the land that they are

695
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: on currently, the tribes within their states, and what they

696
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: can do UM, not just on the local level, but

697
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: on the state level to support tribal sovereignty UM. Because

698
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: a lot of issues UH. For instance, I worked UM

699
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: on the on the state policy level in Washington and

700
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 1: in Montana, and both of those have a significant amount

701
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: of tribes UM. But you have a lot of legislation

702
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: that's trying to happen that infringes on tribal treaty. Rights.

703
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: And the thing is is UM as ugly as it

704
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: maybe to say, but sometimes voices of non indigenous people's

705
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: are listened to more within those UM contexts. So you

706
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: need to get more involved on on those levels. UM

707
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 1: what sort of like at UM nonprofit organizations UM work

708
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: with your tribes or and what sort of issues are

709
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: impacting tribes. And again these are all gonna probably be

710
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: surrounding travel sovereignty, so maybe it's UM fishing access, hunting rights, etcetera. UM.

711
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good way to make some

712
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: more palates UM tangible change, to feel like you're doing

713
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: something to support tribal sovereignty while you're also educating your

714
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: your self and making sure that their voices are at

715
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: the forefront. And that's also applicable to the federal level,

716
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 1: especially with as you already said, like stop line three

717
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: in Minnesota, contacting your legislators, etcetera, etcetera. And I think

718
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: also with when it comes to one of one of

719
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: the larger issues besides UM environmental justice for indigenous peoples

720
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 1: such as pipelines, you have right now missing a murdered

721
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: indigenous women, UM, so looking and looking into that UM

722
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: a little bit more and who you can support who's

723
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: addressing those issues. Along with UM, there is another movement

724
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: with boarding schools right now because there's been a lot

725
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: of UM bodies of young children UM that have been uncovered.

726
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 1: And this is not an issue that happened a long

727
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: long time ago, like for instance, my grandmother went to

728
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: a boarding school. UM. There's still schools that UM although

729
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: they're not called boarding schools right now that we're boarding schools,

730
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: but are still an operation under different names, etcetera. UM.

731
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: So kind of familiarizing yourself with those histories. And then

732
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: also there's a UM national UM I think it's called

733
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: the National Boarding School Healing Coalition based out of Minnesota,

734
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: and UM looking into them and supporting their efforts UM

735
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: with this issue is also a good place to start. UM.

736
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 1: Is there anywhere that people can find you online? Yes?

737
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't really use UM social media that much.

738
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: From yeah yeah, yeah, I try not to. I don't know.

739
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: If I want people to find me, do not, don't,

740
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: don't do it better, It's it's better that people don't

741
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: find anyone online. It's better we're all just just posting

742
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: into the void. There's nothing not just just a void.

743
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: Well that that is I think gonna wrap up what

744
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: we have today. Chris don want to close us out

745
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: with a funny bit A right light your local gas

746
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: station on fire. Wow, Jesus Christ killing it here? Oh

747
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: my god, jeez wow. All right, goodbye forbody. The Gangster

748
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around Underworld

749
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: the Criminals an entertainer. Since Pick was crime law enforcement,

750
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Speaker 1: we cover all facets of the game. Gainst The Chronicles

751
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Speaker 1: podcast doesn't glorify for motilst of activities. We just discussed

752
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Speaker 1: the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at the wall,

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Speaker 1: podcast and my Heart Radio app or wherever you get

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764
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Speaker 1: learning new skills is the mental equivalent of pumping iron.

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Speaker 1: Listen to Before Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. When P. T.

766
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Speaker 1: Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the grounds in eighteen

767
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Speaker 1: six d five, what rose from its ashes would change

768
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: the world? Welcome to Grim and Mild Presents, an ongoing

769
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: journey into the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. For

770
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,720
Speaker 1: our inaugural season, we'll be giving you a backstage tour

771
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: of the always complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that

772
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: is the American Side Show. So come along as we

773
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: visit the shadowy corners of the stage and learn about

774
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775
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: in a place where spectacle was king. We will soon

776
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,799
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777
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: So step right up and get in line. Listen to

778
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,479
Speaker 1: Grim and Mild Presents now on the I Heart Radio app,

779
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more

780
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:53,959
Speaker 1: over at Grim and Mild dot com. Slash presents What's

781
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: Terrible My Me? This Is It Could Happen Here, a

782
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: podcast about collapse. And that's a appropriate because everyone's faith

783
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: in me as a colleague has collapsed today as the

784
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: result of a series of horrific cluster fox On my part,

785
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: I'm late to the meeting. I accidentally left the meeting

786
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: when they started recording just a just a complete fucking

787
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 1: ship show. Speaking of ship shows, my co host Garrison Davis,

788
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: how are you Arison, I'm the one that saved this.

789
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,439
Speaker 1: I had to send the guest to the zoom call,

790
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: I know, and I'm not even supposed to be on

791
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: this call. No you're not. You're not even supposed to

792
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 1: be working today. That's not true. Well, but you're not

793
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: on this call, not on this call. But here I

794
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: am saving. This is enough. This is enough, Woody Banter.

795
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: This is a daily podcast. And now let's bring on

796
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: our guest for today, monsignor Alex new House. Alex, how

797
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: are you doing. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

798
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: I feel like I was pulled in off the street,

799
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 1: just like bundled into a van and then yeah, yeah,

800
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: we uh. You know how people used to get like shanghaied,

801
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: like like captured by it, allegedly allegedly and forced to

802
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: work on on on boats in like San Francisco and whatnot.

803
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: We do that with podcasts. I mean that is actually

804
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: most of what I've done to the people who work

805
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: on your podcast. I think I think I've had everyone

806
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,439
Speaker 1: from your show on our show now, and it has

807
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 1: been very much like I'm just pulling them on a string.

808
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: Speaking of which, Alex, you are one of the hosts

809
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 1: of the Terrorism Is Bad podcast, a very uh controversially

810
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: named podcast. Uh. And you work at the Middlebury Institute

811
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: of International Studies at Monterey Center of Terrorism, Extremism and

812
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: counter Terrorism Center on not not of that would be

813
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: a different center, very important, very important. Yeah, and we're

814
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:46,839
Speaker 1: not We're not bringing you on to talk about how

815
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: to make explosively formed penetrators. Not this time. That is

816
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: someone else. Yeah, but you and you are also you

817
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 1: were also a actual games journalist. Yes, yeah, I got

818
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: my start in is Weird Space. How do you gamer Gate?

819
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: How do you feel about ethics in the game journalism industry? Alex, Uh,

820
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 1: always been fine, like the ship. Yeah, alright, anyway, that's

821
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,240
Speaker 1: the end of that. Yeah, I do want to actually

822
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 1: start there, Alex, because you and I both have something

823
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: in common, which is that we we got our start

824
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: writing in a field that's wildly different from consulting with

825
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: like governments on terrorism. Like for me, it was I

826
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: wanted to write like Dick jokes on the Internet and

827
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 1: I just like stumbled into a bunch of ices propaganda

828
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: that most people weren't aware of, and and that started

829
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 1: me like lecturing at universities and ship And for you

830
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 1: it was gamer gates. I'm interested in kind of you

831
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: telling your story a little bit to start us off. Yeah,

832
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: so I was. I was during undergrad I enterned every

833
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: summer at game Spot video game website you may have

834
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 1: heard of. It's one of the two big ones along

835
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 1: with I g n UM. And when I was doing that,

836
00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: I was so this was like right in at the

837
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: beginning stages of of gaming gate really popping off. And

838
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: what ended up happening is a lot of the people

839
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: I worked with, a lot of my colleagues and friends

840
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: were just in the blast zone. They were just targeted

841
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: by the absolute onslaught of of harassment UM and I

842
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: just had a curiosity started looking into some of those

843
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: people who were who are targeting my friends and colleagues,

844
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: and it ended up being a lot of the people

845
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: that were still talking about today. Uh, you know, it

846
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: all all rolls back up to the bright bart metropolitan area,

847
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: if you will. And um, I don't know what a

848
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: uh the thing that made me want to I mean,

849
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: obviously I've been aware of you work for well, but

850
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: the thing that maybe want to specifically bring you on

851
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: as you started on a new project to create like

852
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: a video game that that will hopefully have an ability

853
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: to help like de radicalize people. And I'm I'm not

854
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: entirely certain like of the details of the project, but

855
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: I think it's a fascinating project because, as as you

856
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: know all too well, a lot of this stuff started

857
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: in gaming, not as a result of anything specifically about

858
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: gay but the kind of like socialization that occurs in

859
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: those spaces and the kind of like different communities. And

860
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: it's been like we have going back to the nineties

861
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: evidence of like different Nazi groups on the early Internet,

862
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: like talking about like these are specific specific groups and

863
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: subcultures that you know will have an easier time radicalizing

864
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: and whatnot. But yeah, I'm interested in kind of what

865
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: actually is going on with this project, um, and and

866
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,439
Speaker 1: how you think it's going to look at this stage.

867
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: I understand it's pretty early in development right now, so

868
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: I'm not expecting like, you know, an E three walkthrough. Yeah,

869
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: our E three size life and I wish we had that. Um. Yeah.

870
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: We won a grant from DHS and FEMA their their

871
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: Tears and Prevention Grant program this year. We just got

872
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: awarded it like literally two weeks ago, so I have

873
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: not even started work on it at all. But the

874
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: project will be a collaboration between my center and a

875
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 1: nonprofit games development company called the I Thrive Foundation. UH.

876
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: And basically what we are going to do is like

877
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: build digital scenario as digital narratives that can be engaged

878
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: with UH within classroom settings. So we're targeting high schools

879
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: for rolling this out UH. And the idea is that

880
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 1: we're going to give students the ability to take on

881
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: roles that empower them to better understand how extremism and

882
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: radicalization work as mechanisms, which will hopefully the idea is

883
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: that it will it will improve resilience and you know,

884
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: civil integrity and all those fun buzzwords within within high

885
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: school communities. So we're not necessarily trying to de radicalize

886
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: already radicalize people, but we're really trying to build community

887
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: awareness community resilience to to radicalization pathways. I mean, this

888
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: is something I think about constantly because I get asked

889
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: this a lot. You know, I'll get I'll get emailed

890
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: questions from people, sometimes as much detail as like, hey,

891
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:45,919
Speaker 1: I'm like a teacher and here's some things this could

892
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: in my classes said or something he put in an essay,

893
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: and like, I'm growing really concerned about him, and like, I,

894
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: I what do I do? And my usual answer is

895
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 1: there's a couple of people who I respect that I'll

896
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: try to direct them too, But I I don't. I'm

897
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: pretty good at how people get radicalized. It's something I

898
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time studying. I don't know how

899
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: how you I have trouble figuring out how to break

900
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: down these pathways because like, right, the the default for

901
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people and for a lot of time

902
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: has been will you d platform? Right? You? Um, you

903
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: get them off of whatever? And there's there's still I

904
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: do certainly think there's there's utility in that, but there's

905
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: also you know, the toothpaste tube effect, the fact that

906
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: when you you squash these popular areas where they're able

907
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: to spread them, they filter off into increasingly isolated communities

908
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 1: that develop new terms, they find out ways to hide it,

909
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 1: and that actually increases you know, it may it may

910
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: reduce the number of people who get radicalized, but the

911
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: people who remain just get more and more extreme because

912
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: they're even more isolated from you know, everyone else. And

913
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, how do you how do you how

914
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: do you break that that radicalization cycle? Like, how do

915
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: you how do you stop that ship before it gets,

916
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, to a tipping point? Yeah, I mean, in general,

917
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm with you, I'm pretty skeptical of a lot of

918
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: the radicalization state. G's uh. And it's it's like an

919
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult task to to pull someone out who's already

920
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: going down these pathways. And then, like you said, it's

921
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: also an incredibly difficult task to make sure that when

922
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: you are disrupting the radicalization networks that they aren't just

923
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 1: disappearing off to some other corner of the Internet, which

924
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: we know they're doing. Like, one of the reasons why

925
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: we're we're working with a video game video game company

926
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: is over the last few years, we've noticed a big

927
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 1: migration into video game platforms, especially big social based video

928
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: game platforms like Roadblocks and Minecraft, which are like not

929
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,439
Speaker 1: even remotely prepared to deal with you know, very well

930
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 1: developed sophisticated radicalization networks. They have moved over there, uh,

931
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: both for organization and radicalization reasons. Um, since mainstream companies

932
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: have started taking more of an interest in deep platforming them. Uh.

933
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: And so we're ending up like pretty wildly unprepared for

934
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: this sudden onslought of extreme as being right in front

935
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: of kids as they're playing games or you know, teenagers

936
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: or even young adults. So our idea essentially is to

937
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: use that language, the same language that extremists are trying

938
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: to adopt the structures of video games three via the

939
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: sort of interactivity there, to better communicate the impacts of extremism,

940
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: what it looks like, how to identify it, and hopefully

941
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: how to avoid getting you know, falling into the traps

942
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: that are laid for for unsuspecting people. One of the

943
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: issues and I'm curious your thoughts on this because we

944
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: we we talk a lot about, Like I think people

945
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: have become increasingly aware of how bad Facebook in particular is,

946
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: is a problem with this. It's it's really well real.

947
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: A lot of the Boogaloo movement to and now this

948
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: stuff is coming out about like the data Facebook has

949
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: had on just and this isn't this isn't this is

950
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: adjacent to radicalization, Um, the mental impact that it's been

951
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: having on teenagers, right, like the just how bad it

952
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: is for people, And UM, I'm wondering, like how do

953
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 1: you scale this stuff? I guess is the question, like

954
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: how do you actually how do you make the social

955
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: internet less dangerous? Yeah? I mean that's that's going to

956
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: be extremely tough. And we are even starting very very small,

957
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: like we're building we're building on a narrative platform to

958
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: target three high schools right now. UM. But the hope

959
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: is that ultimately what we can do is build a

960
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: tool set and and a platform like literally a game

961
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 1: platform that can be used by high school teachers in

962
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: high school classes throughout the country or throughout the world. Um.

963
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: The idea will be to hopefully make a new sort

964
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: of package of different methods and interactive experiences that can

965
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 1: be reused into the future. But it is one of

966
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 1: the big open questions that we will hopefully come to

967
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: some sort of answer for throughout the project about how

968
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: do we actually scale us up? Um. But you know,

969
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: in general, it is again like one of the biggest

970
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: open questions right now. One of the reasons why I's

971
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: so skeptical of a lot of d RAD and CBE

972
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,919
Speaker 1: techniques is they try to go for scale about effectiveness UM,

973
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: when in reality, one of the best and only the

974
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 1: radicalization pathways that we know of involves people that you

975
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: know and I know going out and meeting with these

976
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: people one on one and having intensive, frequent communications with them.

977
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 1: So UM, there's as far as we know, there's not

978
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: a good answer right now. This is a huge place

979
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 1: of research right now because we just straight up do

980
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 1: not understand how to scale up UM radicalization, prevention and

981
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: de radicalization. I mean, and you know what you're trying

982
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: to do, and like, reaching kids in high school in

983
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: something that's meant they're meant to be consuming while they're

984
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 1: in school is even such an additional challenge because I

985
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: think you and I are both young enough to at

986
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 1: least remember that like almost nothing that you put before

987
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 1: kids in that context in a school gets through. I can.

988
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: I can. I can think about like anti drug programs

989
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 1: and stuff when I was a kid, and how in

990
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: effective they were. There was I had one one effective

991
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 1: anti drug like speech by a teacher and it was

992
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: just a teacher who who's it was part of this

993
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: this there was this one night and plane where like

994
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 1: six kids indeed on heroin. It was there was big

995
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone article about it was a very famous moment,

996
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: and her son was one of the kids who nearly

997
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: died and she was and she like just explained like

998
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: physically what happened to him and begged us not to

999
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: do heroin. And that actually did stick with me. I've

1000
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: never never shot up anything, um, but you know, like

1001
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: the a lot of it doesn't work. And I think

1002
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: part of why it's this thing I talked about when

1003
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: I tried to explain like why isis propaganda was so effective,

1004
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: it's the it feels more authentic than the than the

1005
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 1: counter narrative, right, the counter narrative, because it's it's usually

1006
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 1: focus grouped. It's coming as the result of like some

1007
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: sort of government initiative, a bunch of people worked in together.

1008
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: It feels focus grouped as opposed to there's something inherently

1009
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 1: more compelling about something that just like it feels like

1010
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: somebody who really gave a ship, cares a lot put

1011
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: this thing together, even if it's terrible, and I that

1012
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 1: strikes me as a really, because if you're going to

1013
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: be scaling something and trying to reach a lot of people,

1014
01:05:57,560 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: it's going to have to be something that is put

1015
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: together at scale by an organization. And how do you

1016
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I know this must be on your mind

1017
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: as you're trying to figure out how to craft this thing.

1018
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm just interested in your thoughts on that. Really, Yeah,

1019
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 1: I mean that exact challenge challenges what led us to

1020
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 1: proposing the project project that we are so the idea

1021
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: behind it, or the the impetus behind what we did

1022
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: what we proposed is, um, the exact problem of students

1023
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 1: just don't listen to people in whether that's anti drug

1024
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: programs or anything like that. Often, my uh my uh

1025
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: feeling about it is they are often resistant to it

1026
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 1: because it's very negative. It's very don't do this, don't

1027
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: do this. I'm setting up boundaries for for kids and

1028
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: analystens to act within. It's all very declaratory, very you know, commanding. Um,

1029
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 1: there's no there's no sense of treating kids like people

1030
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: who have control, who have interests, who have motivations. It's

1031
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: all attempting to restrict them. And so the idea is

1032
01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: that we're going to attempt to build a game play

1033
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: form than actually empower students to operate within roles that

1034
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 1: have control, that that have something to say, to give them,

1035
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: voices to give them um and that sort of feeling

1036
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 1: of being an established um person within a within a

1037
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:16,919
Speaker 1: certain scenario. Um. The way that I've been thinking about

1038
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 1: it is that we're basically merging video games with like

1039
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 1: the structure of a model UN conference or something like that.

1040
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll be a little less nerdy than the model

1041
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 1: UN conferences, but that's the idea of giving people power

1042
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 1: to make decisions, uh, and and treat them like actual,

1043
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 1: you know, operating humans. Yeah, I uh, I'm wondering do

1044
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: you have any kind of models that you're looking at

1045
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 1: when you think of like something that you see is

1046
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 1: is kind of worth I don't emulating maybe the wrong word,

1047
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: but like, oh, these people I think got it right

1048
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 1: and and this was effective, Like or is this really

1049
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: a situation where you feel like we're kind of in

1050
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: the fucking wilderness here. There's not a lot of great

1051
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: models for what's effective. We are very much in the wilderness.

1052
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: We're going to at this kind I was expecting you

1053
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: to say, like so much of c V and d

1054
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 1: RAD work over the last ten years has been directly

1055
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 1: towards trying to essentially recreate the like the DARE model

1056
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 1: or the anti drug model, just in a different field. UM.

1057
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,679
Speaker 1: And so we're going to be pulling from scenario builders

1058
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: and like mala un and debate and like all of

1059
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 1: these different models that seem to at least work to

1060
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: get kids engage with like operating that sort of situation.

1061
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 1: But it is going to be pretty I mean, at

1062
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 1: least from what I understand, is gonna be pretty new.

1063
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: We're going to be out there really flying blind for

1064
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 1: a lot of it, UM, But we will you know,

1065
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 1: we have a pilot phase built in to try to

1066
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 1: bate attest this with with um some of the students

1067
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 1: were incorporating students and instructors in the actual creation development stage.

1068
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: So that'll be another hopefully good part of this will

1069
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: we'll give some students experience with the game development process,

1070
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:03,559
Speaker 1: which I think will all. Yeah, that strikes me as

1071
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 1: a particularly good idea of like giving and also just

1072
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,560
Speaker 1: giving them some agency. So it's not like this is

1073
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,760
Speaker 1: a thing that you are forced to consume, Like this

1074
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 1: is the thing that you can like learn something from

1075
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:17,559
Speaker 1: I think that's that's very important. I'm interested in how

1076
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,720
Speaker 1: you see how you see this because like, again, we

1077
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 1: kind of both got in around the same time. Gamer

1078
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 1: Gate is when I started paying attention to radicalization to

1079
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: how do you think it's changed since then? How do

1080
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: you think like the nature of of how, particularly like

1081
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,599
Speaker 1: younger people are being radicalized has changed. And I guess

1082
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 1: I'm also interested because I get the feeling that back

1083
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 1: then it was mostly younger people getting radicalized and that's

1084
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 1: no longer the case. I'm just as we're talking, I

1085
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 1: just came across the video on Twitter of a group

1086
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 1: of anti vax protesters chasing parents and children away from

1087
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: an elementary school and screaming at them that they're raping

1088
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: their kids with a vaccine. So clearly the problem is expanded.

1089
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, and honestly, one of the things that

1090
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: keeps me up at night is that when we start,

1091
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 1: if you know, knocking movies are a roll this out

1092
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: to more schools, We're going to run into some probably

1093
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 1: very resistant parents who have radicalized. Yum. Yeah, I mean

1094
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 1: the big one is, like what you said, like the

1095
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: radicalization demographics have vastly expanded to incorporate so many more

1096
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 1: different types of people, so many more ages and even

1097
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 1: ethnicities and genders. Um. But what we do know is

1098
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 1: that the hardcore of the of the violent extremists are

1099
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 1: still targeting adolescents. UM. We know, accelerationists, for instance, hang

1100
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 1: out and try to essentially blackpill a bunch of teens,

1101
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 1: especially autistic teens, especially teens with mental health issues, UH,

1102
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:43,559
Speaker 1: and bring them into a more violent, more accelerationist posture. UM.

1103
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think that has sort of stayed

1104
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: constant throughout all of this. One of the big uh

1105
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 1: changes has been platforms. You know, ten years ago, it

1106
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 1: was much easier for a neo Nazi to operate openly

1107
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: on YouTube or Facebook, but has thankfully changed. Um. But

1108
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,479
Speaker 1: they have spread out into like I mentioned earlier, they've

1109
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 1: spread out into video games. They spread out into other

1110
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 1: sorts of platforms where the social aspect isn't necessarily the

1111
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: first part of the platform, but rather a secondary aspect

1112
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 1: to it, and they try to engage um adolescence on

1113
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,200
Speaker 1: their own turf on you know, in a Roadblocks game

1114
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: or in a in a video game forum. Out there.

1115
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 1: It's not even enough to say it feels like the

1116
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 1: task of reducing radicalization or or not not even mentioned,

1117
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: pulling it back, just stopping the process. It feels not

1118
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:37,760
Speaker 1: just like whack a mole, but like whack a mole

1119
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 1: when you're surrounded by moles. Um. And I guess that

1120
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 1: is the thing that keeps me up at night the

1121
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:47,280
Speaker 1: most too, is that like the problem has gotten because

1122
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 1: of how social media scales, I think, in large part,

1123
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 1: has gotten so much worse than it ever was. And

1124
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 1: the I see these crowds of adults, you know, assembling

1125
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:01,000
Speaker 1: in you know, places like Los Angeles, showing up outside

1126
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 1: of schools to her ask people, and like, I don't

1127
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 1: know what, I don't know what to do about that.

1128
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: Like part of me thinks, um, part of me thinks

1129
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:19,400
Speaker 1: that the only effective long term answer is to mobilize

1130
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 1: a larger number of people two show up to you know,

1131
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: not necessarily confront those people, but make them make them

1132
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,719
Speaker 1: feel outnumbered, and maybe they'll stop, and that will start

1133
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 1: a process where they they alter their thinking. Like I'm

1134
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 1: thinking kind of back to some aspects of the civil

1135
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: rights movement here right where you would have these people

1136
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 1: show up at schools just try to stop integration and whatnot,

1137
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:43,679
Speaker 1: and they would be opposed, often by by larger groups

1138
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 1: that they would see the size of the marches in

1139
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 1: the street, and like, I don't know, I don't even

1140
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: know if it works that way anymore. Like knowing that

1141
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: you know, tend to one people think your stance on

1142
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 1: vaccines is stupid and they're willing to show up to

1143
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 1: like yell at you if that would do anything. But

1144
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: I don't know what. I don't know what's going to do.

1145
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 1: Like I'm I guess I'm asking you, like, can you

1146
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,680
Speaker 1: have you figured this out? Because I don't know what

1147
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: the fun to do. Um, But it's it's it's not

1148
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 1: you can't we can't close there. Obviously you're someone who's

1149
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: trying to confront it directly, but we certainly can't keep

1150
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 1: ourselves like just pretend it's not going to get worse, right, No, totally,

1151
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:22,759
Speaker 1: And um, you know, I often feel like it's almost

1152
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,640
Speaker 1: too far gone. And you know, frequently I worry that

1153
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:28,280
Speaker 1: we've already passed some sort of you know, point of

1154
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 1: no return on radicalization exploitation of social media. But one

1155
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 1: of the other things I've also recognized is that when

1156
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 1: you're in a space that is dedicated to one type

1157
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 1: of confronting one one method of confronting extremism. Very often

1158
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 1: they will forget about, or the prioritize, or or even

1159
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 1: ignore the other types, the other methods. And one of

1160
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 1: the tasks before us, I think, before we throw up

1161
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 1: our hands and give up, is trying to tie together

1162
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 1: all of the different facets of of resisting extremism, from

1163
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:08,720
Speaker 1: the hardcore confrontational dosing and showing up in the streets counterprotesting,

1164
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: which I think is an essential part of it, to

1165
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:14,040
Speaker 1: UM working as hard as we can to try to

1166
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:17,680
Speaker 1: get tech companies to to realize what's going on UH,

1167
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: and then also on the educational side, like what we're

1168
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: doing with this with this project UM. Some of the

1169
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:24,560
Speaker 1: things that make me at least a little bit optimistic

1170
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:29,640
Speaker 1: is that there is obviously inertia, both intentional and unintentional

1171
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:33,439
Speaker 1: at tech companies, but frankly, they are still extremely far

1172
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 1: behind in understanding how to even do D platforming on

1173
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 1: their platforms, how to even identify who t D platform

1174
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 1: like the majority of tech companies are still making content

1175
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 1: moderation decisions on a piece by piece basis, specifically looking

1176
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,600
Speaker 1: at content. Very few of them are doing actor analysis,

1177
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: very few of them are doing secial network analysis. Very

1178
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 1: few of them are looking at even the links between

1179
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: like off platform violence and on platform content like the

1180
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 1: They are still very much in the stone ages when

1181
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:08,360
Speaker 1: it comes to contentment moderation. And that's so so key

1182
01:15:08,520 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 1: when I think about like what actually would reduce the

1183
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:14,759
Speaker 1: harm that these platforms are doing at scale. It's focusing

1184
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:17,880
Speaker 1: on the actors, um and and not just like the

1185
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 1: individual actors, which is part of the patterns that let

1186
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 1: you tell whether or not someone is like that same

1187
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:24,559
Speaker 1: actor who is kind of like putting on a different hat,

1188
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 1: so to speak. Um, are you aware of like is

1189
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: there any I because I have not seen that happen yet.

1190
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:36,560
Speaker 1: I haven't seen Facebook take that seriously. Um, and I

1191
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 1: have I have spent some time there. I haven't seen

1192
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:44,200
Speaker 1: certainly haven't seen Twitter take that seriously. Um, I haven't

1193
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 1: really seen. I don't believe TikTok is like they're they're

1194
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 1: they're they're just um like you said, they're going after

1195
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 1: they're taking it on a piece bay piece basis, which

1196
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 1: is never there's too many pieces. That's never going to

1197
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:59,679
Speaker 1: handle the problem. Yeah, I mean, take talk is crawling

1198
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:02,519
Speaker 1: right now on the air in their infancy. Um, they don't.

1199
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:05,560
Speaker 1: They don't have a data sharing UH, any sort of

1200
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: data sharing systems set up for for researchers or anything

1201
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: like that. Yet I I've seen optimistic signals. So I

1202
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:14,559
Speaker 1: think Facebook's approach to q and on in boogleoo movement

1203
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 1: over the past year has been probably the best, the

1204
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:20,800
Speaker 1: most positive development we've seen on the content moderation front,

1205
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 1: because they took an actual network based approach to it.

1206
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 1: It was handstrung by a variety of different policy decisions,

1207
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: but it was still from like a from like a

1208
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 1: mechanics standpoint, the most sophisticated one any of the companies

1209
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:37,400
Speaker 1: has actually talked about openly. UH. And YouTube has followed

1210
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 1: in their path. They've started taking more network approaches. Um

1211
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: they They've taken moderation action against q and on on

1212
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 1: a similar basis. But the thing that I want tech

1213
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 1: companies to start looking at is applying a lot of

1214
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:56,280
Speaker 1: the techniques they're using for disinformation and in info ops

1215
01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 1: work to extremism and radicalization. It's very similar, but right

1216
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 1: now it seems to be just easier politically or just

1217
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:08,160
Speaker 1: there further along with doing the large scale network analysis

1218
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 1: approaches on this info UM, Like Twitter is doing a

1219
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:14,600
Speaker 1: lot of that, but it's all on information operations and

1220
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:19,560
Speaker 1: to info yeah, as opposed to yeah people. Yeah. And

1221
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 1: I I worry too because I'm paying attention to kind

1222
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,120
Speaker 1: of you know, you have this whistle blower from Facebook,

1223
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: and how that's being politicized, right, how the right is

1224
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 1: kind of coming at this from a they're trying to say,

1225
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 1: like as Ben Shapira said, they're trying to to UM

1226
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 1: to censor alternative media voices and the like. And I

1227
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 1: I worry tremendously about the politicization because number one, it

1228
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:46,680
Speaker 1: means that at best we've got like three years to

1229
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 1: get something together before you know, who knows whose wides

1230
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 1: up in the White House next. But also if it's

1231
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 1: just this thing of like veering between who gets who

1232
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 1: gets paid attention to UM based on like what is

1233
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 1: politically viable for Facebook, We're never going to solve the problem.

1234
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,800
Speaker 1: And I I think I agree with you for the

1235
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:10,120
Speaker 1: most part on the Facebook's response to the boogle Boo movement.

1236
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I think the problem was that

1237
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 1: by the time they developed a functional set of responses

1238
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,560
Speaker 1: to it UM, it had metastasized, it had grown, it

1239
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 1: had grown strong enough to exist on its own, and

1240
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people have gotten exposed. What do you

1241
01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 1: think is the actual is reasonable to expect in terms

1242
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 1: of response time from these people, Because with Boogleoo stuff,

1243
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 1: it was about I want to say, about three months maybe, well, no,

1244
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 1: it was more like five. It was about five months

1245
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: that it had from like December of twenty nineteen was

1246
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:42,840
Speaker 1: when I started really noticing it. And then like you know,

1247
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: May at the when when stuff really kicked off with

1248
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 1: the George Floyd protests, when you started to see action

1249
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 1: taking the tail into May. Yeah, so I guess that

1250
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like what is the half life of this ship?

1251
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:57,479
Speaker 1: Like how quickly do you need to crack down on

1252
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 1: this stuff before it it gets to be impossible to contain? Uh? Yeah,

1253
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 1: I mean that's the biggest limiting factor on the effectiveness

1254
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:11,760
Speaker 1: of UH contemnation in general, but also in particular these

1255
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 1: new approaches that the tech companies seem to be experimenting with. UM,

1256
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 1: my understanding is that part of the So I'm not

1257
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 1: I'm not defending Facebook by any stretch. I'm not here

1258
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 1: to be the Facebook rallying croup. But my understanding is

1259
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 1: that they literally did develop an entirely separate approach to

1260
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 1: taking down the biblue movements, So that explains at least

1261
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 1: a little bit of the delay. But hopefully, you know,

1262
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: my optimistic side hopes that they will be able to

1263
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 1: apply it more quickly in the future. Um. The problem

1264
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 1: is a lot of the network approaches that have been

1265
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 1: developed are have like these very high thresholds for attribution.

1266
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:51,439
Speaker 1: So it has to be like a dedicated network that

1267
01:19:51,479 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 1: has crossed the line into criminal activity and is actively

1268
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:58,679
Speaker 1: calling for you know, political violence on like a network level,

1269
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,680
Speaker 1: and that like we all know that that isn't that

1270
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: is like the end goal or the end point in right,

1271
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:10,840
Speaker 1: Like that is the terminal point of the development of

1272
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:15,800
Speaker 1: these extremist networks. So you know, we're one of the

1273
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're working on is trying

1274
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to convince tech companies that

1275
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 1: you can and should take action earlier before it reaches

1276
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 1: that point. And it's going to be a mosaic of things.

1277
01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 1: It's going to be combining violent extremism with hate speech,

1278
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:31,320
Speaker 1: with even like c SAM child exploitation stuff, with um all,

1279
01:20:31,640 --> 01:20:35,400
Speaker 1: you know, criminal criminal conspiracy network policies. All of those

1280
01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 1: things need to be sort of thought of as pieces

1281
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 1: in a single, big, overarching umbrella that we can use

1282
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: to take down networks earlier on. But you know, it's

1283
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 1: a it's a that's one of the biggest tasks is

1284
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 1: just convincing them to think about it much much earlier. Yeah. Um,

1285
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 1: all right, well, let's I think most of what I

1286
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 1: wanted to get into today. Is there anything else you

1287
01:20:57,160 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 1: really wanted to like kind of talk about while you're here? Um,

1288
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:03,639
Speaker 1: those are the those are the big ones for sure.

1289
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 1: We will hopefully have more to talk about very soon.

1290
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 1: And how we're approaching this project. Um, it's going to

1291
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 1: be a pretty big project. It will take two years

1292
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 1: to implement, but um, we're pretty excited to see what

1293
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 1: comes out of it. Yeah. Um, Well, people can find

1294
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:24,559
Speaker 1: you on Twitter at it's just at alex new house, right,

1295
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:27,640
Speaker 1: alex B new house, alex B new house. Yeah, at

1296
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:33,040
Speaker 1: alex B new house. Um, they can check out where

1297
01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:35,720
Speaker 1: you work at at C T E, C M I

1298
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: I s UM And yeah, I'm I'm excited to see. Well,

1299
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 1: maybe we'll have you back on when you UMU, when

1300
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,639
Speaker 1: you you you actually put out the game. But I'm

1301
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:48,760
Speaker 1: really interested in looking at that. Oh yeah, it was

1302
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:51,720
Speaker 1: the less than you brewed. Oh I brewed a red

1303
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 1: I p a and I'm currently brewing three gallons of

1304
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 1: apple cider. Oh nice. We just um reduced ten gallons

1305
01:21:57,120 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 1: of apples and pears that I just kegged after almost

1306
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:02,639
Speaker 1: four weeks of fermentation that I know. I've been I've

1307
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,680
Speaker 1: been looking at I've been looking at apple mills, like

1308
01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 1: apple presses. Yeah I should I should just buy one.

1309
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 1: And we found one to rent. Um So it's just

1310
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:12,519
Speaker 1: like I don't know, thirty bucks for the day. Uh,

1311
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:14,879
Speaker 1: and we just gathered up all the apples on property.

1312
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:18,080
Speaker 1: But it's it was rab definitely very soul. Yeah. We

1313
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:20,240
Speaker 1: were juicing all of the apples the day that um

1314
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:25,519
Speaker 1: tiny got shot at that protest in Olympia. So it's

1315
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 1: just like looking at the Twitter saying there's been a

1316
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 1: shooting into protests and be like, yeah, I'm glad I'm

1317
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:32,759
Speaker 1: not working today. Yeah, I'm glad I'm not working today

1318
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:37,920
Speaker 1: afternoon pressing apple. This is this is a more enjoyable

1319
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:41,679
Speaker 1: use of my time right now. All right, Well, Alex,

1320
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on. Thank you for

1321
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 1: what you're doing, and thank you all for listening. Go

1322
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 1: with you know whoever, whatever deity up to you. The

1323
01:22:57,280 --> 01:23:01,280
Speaker 1: art world, it is essentially a money during business. The

1324
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 1: best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You know

1325
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,639
Speaker 1: they don't even know or suspect that their faces. I'm

1326
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed

1327
01:23:12,200 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting

1328
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:22,120
Speaker 1: was fake. Um Listen to Art Fraud starting February one

1329
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:26,719
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

1330
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:38,760
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I call the Union Hall as

1331
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:41,640
Speaker 1: his male alife and death. I thank these people to

1332
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 1: planning to kill Dr King. On April four, Dr Martin

1333
01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:49,240
Speaker 1: Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty

1334
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,799
Speaker 1: criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He played guilty

1335
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:54,760
Speaker 1: to the crime and spent the rest of his life

1336
01:23:54,800 --> 01:24:00,200
Speaker 1: in prison. Case closed, right, James el Ray is a

1337
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:04,720
Speaker 1: pawn for the official story. The authorities would pray at

1338
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:07,639
Speaker 1: all we found a gun the James ol Ray bought

1339
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 1: in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it wasn't the

1340
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,680
Speaker 1: gun that killed Dr King. One of the problems that

1341
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:18,200
Speaker 1: came out when I got the ray case was that

1342
01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:21,720
Speaker 1: some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned,

1343
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:25,880
Speaker 1: did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes.

1344
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 1: The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I

1345
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1346
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 1: I'm Jake Halbern, host of Deep Cover. Our new season

1347
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 1: is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago.

1348
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 1: We controlled the courts, We controlled absolutely everything. He bribed

1349
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 1: judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until

1350
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,640
Speaker 1: one day when he started talking with the FBI and

1351
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 1: promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent

1352
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 1: the past year trying to figure out why he flipped

1353
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:03,679
Speaker 1: and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob

1354
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:05,640
Speaker 1: was too good to be true. There's got to be

1355
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:08,640
Speaker 1: something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust the guy. He

1356
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:11,640
Speaker 1: looks like a little scum, big liar, stool pidgeon. He

1357
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: looked like what he was or at. I can say

1358
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:16,560
Speaker 1: with all certainty I think he's a hero because he

1359
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:18,200
Speaker 1: didn't have to do what he did, and he did

1360
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,640
Speaker 1: it anyway. The moment I put the wire around the

1361
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:24,240
Speaker 1: first time, my life was over. If it ever got out,

1362
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 1: they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen to deep

1363
01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 1: Cover on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or

1364
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. It could happen here. Mike

1365
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 1: is possibly anyway, I'm Robert Evans. Uh, you know who

1366
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 1: I am because you're listening to this show unless you

1367
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:50,960
Speaker 1: stumbled upon this having never heard of the internet before,

1368
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:53,840
Speaker 1: in which case, this is a show about how things

1369
01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 1: are kind of falling apart, and we also try to

1370
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 1: talk every now and then about how to maybe put

1371
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,360
Speaker 1: them back together a little bit. My co host is

1372
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 1: Garrison Davis. Garrison, say hello to the people. Hello, people.

1373
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 1: I'd also like you to say hello to Sean. Hi. Sean. Yeah,

1374
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 1: there's a Sean somewhere out there. There's probably a few Seans. Yeah,

1375
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:17,560
Speaker 1: it was at least one or two. Garrison, What do we?

1376
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 1: What do we? What do we? What? What? What are we? Well,

1377
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:23,560
Speaker 1: we're finally doing something I've been wanting to do for

1378
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 1: a while, is branching off into kind of covering different

1379
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:29,640
Speaker 1: parts of like media and culture. Um that kind of

1380
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:33,519
Speaker 1: relate to all of these topics. Um. I know both

1381
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:36,800
Speaker 1: both me, but both me a little bit and and

1382
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:40,439
Speaker 1: Robert more so have worked for or have have written

1383
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:45,120
Speaker 1: for UM like an online investigative journalism website called Belling

1384
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:49,120
Speaker 1: Cat that deals in open source UM like research. And

1385
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:52,160
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're big fans of that

1386
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:54,280
Speaker 1: Belling Cat I've talked with a few of the other

1387
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 1: people is a game called Her Story, which is a

1388
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 1: video game that has maybe one of the better better

1389
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 1: depictions of kind of open source UM investigations. Uh it's

1390
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 1: it's a it's a very it's a very good game.

1391
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:10,720
Speaker 1: I highly recommended. I played it a few years ago.

1392
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:16,760
Speaker 1: It was lovely and I recently uh well, originally, when

1393
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:19,080
Speaker 1: I bought Her Story, I bought both that game and

1394
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:22,640
Speaker 1: like a spiritual sequel called Telling Lies, which I did

1395
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:24,760
Speaker 1: did not play for a while because I was too

1396
01:27:24,840 --> 01:27:29,759
Speaker 1: busy UM. And then I went to the Earth First

1397
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 1: Gathering this summer and I and I came back and

1398
01:27:32,080 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 1: I had some free time, so I played Telling Lies.

1399
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 1: And because of the continent of that game, I found

1400
01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:40,320
Speaker 1: it really interesting. Because I'm not gonna spoil tons of it,

1401
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:42,160
Speaker 1: I think you should play it for yourself, and part

1402
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:44,800
Speaker 1: of it is solving the mystery on your own. But

1403
01:27:44,920 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 1: but part of it does take place to like green

1404
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,599
Speaker 1: environmentalism activism setting and it has one of the more

1405
01:27:53,960 --> 01:28:00,040
Speaker 1: honest depictions of environments like that. So I have of

1406
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:03,240
Speaker 1: we we are graced with bringing on the creator of

1407
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:08,320
Speaker 1: both Her Story and telling lies. Uh. Sam Barlow, Hello, Hey,

1408
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:11,840
Speaker 1: exciting to be here thanks to that lovely interest. Yeah,

1409
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,640
Speaker 1: I am, I am. I'm very excited to talk with you.

1410
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:18,240
Speaker 1: These games are some of my favorite things. Um. First off,

1411
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:20,320
Speaker 1: I guess I would just like to kind of talk

1412
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 1: about your inspiration for this type of detective game, because

1413
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 1: it is it is unique to every other kind of

1414
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:31,720
Speaker 1: investigative game out there. UM. And it's you know, very

1415
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 1: much grounded in open source research. Um. And like using

1416
01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:39,680
Speaker 1: computers in the real world. What what kind of got

1417
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:43,479
Speaker 1: you onto that kind of storytelling concept? I mean, I

1418
01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:45,760
Speaker 1: think there was a whole bunch of things that all

1419
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:49,439
Speaker 1: kind of sparked off at once, Like when I made

1420
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:52,240
Speaker 1: Her Story. This was my first independent video game. So

1421
01:28:52,280 --> 01:28:56,080
Speaker 1: I've been making video games for ten plus years, um,

1422
01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:00,360
Speaker 1: working on other people's franchises, more traditional things. When I

1423
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:03,880
Speaker 1: started out working on like Nicolas Cage movie, Tiants and

1424
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:06,680
Speaker 1: extreme sports games and all these kind of things. Um.

1425
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:09,920
Speaker 1: But at some point I got to work on the

1426
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:14,160
Speaker 1: Sunlight Health franchise, which is this this very cool psychological

1427
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 1: horror franchise, and it's one of the certainly at that

1428
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 1: point in time, it was one of the few kind

1429
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:23,680
Speaker 1: of established gaming franchises that had a story that was

1430
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:26,040
Speaker 1: interesting and took place in the real world and had

1431
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 1: characters and things. So kind of from that point, I

1432
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:34,120
Speaker 1: was really digging into kind of a lifelong interest in storytelling,

1433
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:39,040
Speaker 1: especially what we can do with it interactively, and continue

1434
01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:42,400
Speaker 1: to be frustrated somewhat by working for these bigger publishers.

1435
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 1: And at one point I worked for three years I

1436
01:29:46,120 --> 01:29:49,640
Speaker 1: was directing and writing this this big budget video game

1437
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:53,080
Speaker 1: that got canceled, and that kind of gave me a

1438
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:56,080
Speaker 1: moment to kind of sit and think, like, what what

1439
01:29:56,240 --> 01:29:57,360
Speaker 1: do I want to do? Do I want to get

1440
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:00,280
Speaker 1: on board another of these big video games. I was

1441
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 1: very frustrated at the kind of incremental change that you

1442
01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 1: see in the kind of bigger budget video game space.

1443
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 1: It feels like things happened very slowly, which can be frustrating.

1444
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:13,920
Speaker 1: So I was kind of looking around. This was when

1445
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:17,360
Speaker 1: like iPhones, people gaming on their iPhones and stuff was

1446
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:20,080
Speaker 1: kind of starting to blow up. The fact that you

1447
01:30:20,160 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 1: could now distribute a game individually digitally and reach an

1448
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: audience was sort of changing the landscape. So I kind

1449
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 1: of felt like I should get into that. And so

1450
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 1: at its conception, her story was was me going, what

1451
01:30:35,479 --> 01:30:38,479
Speaker 1: are all the things I've wanted to do that that

1452
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:40,360
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to do when I was working with

1453
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:43,440
Speaker 1: these bigger budgets, with these more established kind of gaming templates.

1454
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:47,640
Speaker 1: So from the get go it was I wanted to

1455
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:51,800
Speaker 1: deal with characters that essentially lived in the real world,

1456
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:55,320
Speaker 1: which is a hard pitch. You know, if you're asking

1457
01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:57,600
Speaker 1: for big bucks, every video game has to essentially be

1458
01:30:57,640 --> 01:30:59,920
Speaker 1: about superhero. It needs to be some kind of wish

1459
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 1: fulfilment for a teenage boy is generally what people are

1460
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:06,920
Speaker 1: asking for. Uh. And the big thing with her story

1461
01:31:07,120 --> 01:31:12,000
Speaker 1: was subtext as someone's interesting storytelling. Us always trying to

1462
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:15,800
Speaker 1: push how important subtext is and the idea that there is.

1463
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 1: You know, there are layers to a narrative that you're

1464
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:19,920
Speaker 1: not spelling out for the audience that they're going to

1465
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:23,439
Speaker 1: extract through performance or through whatever um And that was

1466
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:26,240
Speaker 1: always a hard sell when you were kind of dealing

1467
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:30,760
Speaker 1: with these kind of bigger companies that had a very

1468
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 1: simple idea of what their audience was. So I wanted

1469
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 1: to prove that the audience was actually smarter than we

1470
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:38,679
Speaker 1: were giving them credit for, and that if you gave

1471
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:41,360
Speaker 1: more control to them, if you gave more of the

1472
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 1: kind of work of piecing these stories together, that that

1473
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:47,320
Speaker 1: would be not not just something they could do, but

1474
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:50,880
Speaker 1: which would actually be more interesting and more personal and um,

1475
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 1: you know, and with her story, I had a kind

1476
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 1: of lifelong love of like crime fiction and slightly more

1477
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:01,479
Speaker 1: kind of gothic leaning crime fiction. And so it's like, right,

1478
01:32:01,479 --> 01:32:05,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna create a video game which is in that

1479
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:08,200
Speaker 1: world and which kind of breaks a lot of the

1480
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 1: established rules of how you might tell a story. Um,

1481
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of that I was pulling from, Yeah,

1482
01:32:16,600 --> 01:32:19,679
Speaker 1: my love of some of the more kind of avant

1483
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 1: garde literally stuff, interesting pieces of kind of movies and things.

1484
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:25,720
Speaker 1: But it was, it was, it was pulling from a

1485
01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 1: lot of different kind of storytelling traditions and ending up

1486
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:31,639
Speaker 1: in this this interesting place where, like you say, it's

1487
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,840
Speaker 1: kind of a game experience where you're essentially researching the

1488
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:39,240
Speaker 1: story yourself and kind of putting the pieces together. Yeah. Yeah,

1489
01:32:39,320 --> 01:32:41,520
Speaker 1: for for people who don't know, it's like you're basically

1490
01:32:41,960 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: on a virtual desktop, um, and you're sorting through like

1491
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:49,439
Speaker 1: a hard drive full of footage and the versatility of

1492
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:51,720
Speaker 1: the game, and you know, people learning how to use

1493
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:54,360
Speaker 1: like search terms, right, just like people try to use

1494
01:32:54,400 --> 01:32:57,080
Speaker 1: like UM in open source it's called like using like

1495
01:32:58,439 --> 01:33:01,760
Speaker 1: Google operators. It's this kind of the same thing. Um.

1496
01:33:01,960 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 1: But also there's like the other side of things. I

1497
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:05,840
Speaker 1: think Belling Cat wrote an article about your game where

1498
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:08,840
Speaker 1: they like made like a Python script to scan all

1499
01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:11,160
Speaker 1: of the videos for specific keywords and put them into

1500
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 1: like different folders and files. So it's like you can

1501
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:15,280
Speaker 1: do the thing where you just like search it, but

1502
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:17,760
Speaker 1: you could like take this to a ridiculous level or

1503
01:33:17,920 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 1: you're like breaking the game open and doing it like

1504
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:22,040
Speaker 1: you're actually like investigating this and you need to be

1505
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:25,240
Speaker 1: very quick. UM. So I think her story is is

1506
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:28,640
Speaker 1: a lovely intro to this type of game concept. And

1507
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:34,360
Speaker 1: then for telling lies, you kind of changed you change

1508
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:36,479
Speaker 1: some things with it. Um. You made like I guess,

1509
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:38,479
Speaker 1: I guess like an expansion would be the way I

1510
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:41,280
Speaker 1: would describe it for how it like takes the same

1511
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 1: concept and pushes it further. And I think watching these

1512
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:47,639
Speaker 1: things now, it is very different after being like two

1513
01:33:47,720 --> 01:33:51,360
Speaker 1: years on Zoom. Right, I'm I'm sure, I'm sure you've

1514
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:53,360
Speaker 1: heard this from other people as well as, like, you know,

1515
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,200
Speaker 1: because because because of how telling lies operates, it's like

1516
01:33:56,880 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 1: a lot of it is well you open the game

1517
01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:02,240
Speaker 1: as you're basically cracking open and then I say hard drive,

1518
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:06,479
Speaker 1: so all of it is video from like webcams and stuff. Um,

1519
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,639
Speaker 1: so you know, watching people talking to their computer camera

1520
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 1: like this after spending years on Zoom definitely hits harder.

1521
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:17,120
Speaker 1: I guess it was one of those things where so

1522
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 1: when we were first working on this and conceiving of it,

1523
01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:27,200
Speaker 1: which was I don't know, maybe and something like that. Um,

1524
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:30,080
Speaker 1: there was a leap, right, and as a storyteller you

1525
01:34:30,160 --> 01:34:32,360
Speaker 1: allow yourself sometimes to take that one leap that the

1526
01:34:32,400 --> 01:34:34,680
Speaker 1: audience will take with you. And the leap there was

1527
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:39,240
Speaker 1: like these people are using video chat a lot. But

1528
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:42,120
Speaker 1: I mean and as I was starting to put it together,

1529
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:45,760
Speaker 1: I would start noticing people around that time doing video

1530
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 1: chat in the street on their phones, which was something

1531
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:49,760
Speaker 1: I was not used to sing and I was like, oh, ship,

1532
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,280
Speaker 1: maybe this is not too big of a leap. Um,

1533
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:54,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think I think it was the virgin

1534
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:58,640
Speaker 1: or somebody ran an article that like, Telling Lies is

1535
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:02,040
Speaker 1: still a great game, uh mid pandemic, it's just real

1536
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 1: hard to play now that that like this Zoom thing

1537
01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 1: is our lives. I mean I was like, yeah, that

1538
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:10,800
Speaker 1: was that was a big thing I was interested in

1539
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:14,559
Speaker 1: at the time, was like, what what is this doing

1540
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:17,519
Speaker 1: to us? What is communicating over the internet? How does

1541
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:20,560
Speaker 1: that change how conversations and and things happen? And was

1542
01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:22,160
Speaker 1: kind of looking into some of the research there, so

1543
01:35:22,280 --> 01:35:26,920
Speaker 1: that Yeah, that was wild. Was was was kind of

1544
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:28,960
Speaker 1: living in that world for several years putting the game

1545
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 1: out and then spending two years on Zoom calls. Yeah.

1546
01:35:33,200 --> 01:35:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean in a few ways, I think the game

1547
01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:38,320
Speaker 1: has aged very well because of that, and because the

1548
01:35:38,439 --> 01:35:41,920
Speaker 1: way people People are more used to interacting with the

1549
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 1: computer in that format now, so when they're you know,

1550
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:48,000
Speaker 1: trying to search for these like hundreds of video files,

1551
01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:50,880
Speaker 1: I think they can understand it better. Um So, in

1552
01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 1: some ways, I think it's not it's not necessarily a

1553
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 1: bad thing. Um But yeah, let's see. So I think, well,

1554
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:00,800
Speaker 1: I want to talk a bit about kind of the

1555
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:05,000
Speaker 1: influences for kind of the surveillance aspect, because, like her

1556
01:36:05,120 --> 01:36:08,680
Speaker 1: story is filmed in like a police um interrogation room

1557
01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:12,400
Speaker 1: for based basically basically the whole thing, whereas this pulls

1558
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 1: video footage of people like in private moments. Essentially. Of course,

1559
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:18,400
Speaker 1: this was like after like the Snowden stuff and after

1560
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:20,960
Speaker 1: all of the other kind of after the you know,

1561
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:25,040
Speaker 1: surveillance became a bigger talking point. Um, But what what

1562
01:36:25,240 --> 01:36:28,439
Speaker 1: got you to decide you wanted to kind of revolve

1563
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 1: the game around this concept of internet surveillance. And then

1564
01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:35,200
Speaker 1: you know, different three letter agencies kind of fighting each

1565
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:38,200
Speaker 1: other a little bit. So I think it was two things.

1566
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:42,680
Speaker 1: One was in making her story and making lots of

1567
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 1: decisions somewhat intuitively kind of when it was finished and

1568
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:48,080
Speaker 1: it was a big success, and I looked back on it,

1569
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:50,760
Speaker 1: and then kind of when a little bit of time

1570
01:36:50,840 --> 01:36:53,120
Speaker 1: and passed, I then had this very different relationship where

1571
01:36:53,120 --> 01:36:55,200
Speaker 1: I had forgotten that I was the person that had

1572
01:36:55,240 --> 01:36:57,600
Speaker 1: made it and so could have opinions about it. And

1573
01:36:57,920 --> 01:37:01,520
Speaker 1: I was really interested in how that that game established

1574
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:05,000
Speaker 1: a level of intimacy with the main character that Viva plays,

1575
01:37:05,080 --> 01:37:08,200
Speaker 1: that you're seeing being interrogated, despite the fact that it's

1576
01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:10,800
Speaker 1: happening through a computer desktop, despite the fact that there's

1577
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:14,080
Speaker 1: none of what traditionally, you know that the agency you

1578
01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:16,759
Speaker 1: would traditionally having a video game, which you know, conventional

1579
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:19,800
Speaker 1: logic would be that's how you would establish the idea

1580
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:21,719
Speaker 1: that this person is alive and that you're in contact

1581
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 1: with them. But the act of like digging into all

1582
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:28,479
Speaker 1: this video footage of Viva and seeing her on screen

1583
01:37:28,840 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 1: talking essentially at you created this this interesting amount of

1584
01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:34,680
Speaker 1: intimacy that a lot of people responded to. So I

1585
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 1: was like, well, that's one of the things that is

1586
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:40,000
Speaker 1: interesting to me to take further, because it's it's very

1587
01:37:40,200 --> 01:37:43,840
Speaker 1: rare that a video game creates this sensation of kind

1588
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:47,040
Speaker 1: of intimacy or of getting close to or understanding people.

1589
01:37:47,640 --> 01:37:51,560
Speaker 1: And then it was Snowden UM. I think it was

1590
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:57,360
Speaker 1: one of the the early reports UM from from all

1591
01:37:57,400 --> 01:38:00,479
Speaker 1: the various things that came out via Snowden. There was

1592
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:05,599
Speaker 1: a particular UM operation in the UK, which I think

1593
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:08,720
Speaker 1: was called Optic Nerve or something, and the idea there

1594
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:11,680
Speaker 1: was that they were spying on everyone's Internet traffic. And

1595
01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 1: I think it's a little bit easier to do that

1596
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:17,840
Speaker 1: in the UK than it is elsewhere. And this one

1597
01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:20,840
Speaker 1: particular operation I remember there was a PowerPoint slide that

1598
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 1: was leaked that was like their internal presentation which proved

1599
01:38:25,400 --> 01:38:28,680
Speaker 1: that like in any leaked government PowerPoint will be the

1600
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:31,639
Speaker 1: worst power point you've ever seen, like the clip art

1601
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:35,200
Speaker 1: and just terrible nous, right um. But in this scheme

1602
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:38,200
Speaker 1: what they did and this blew my mind was for

1603
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:40,639
Speaker 1: a period of I think it was two years, every

1604
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:44,200
Speaker 1: single video chat that went through Yahoo in the UK

1605
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:49,439
Speaker 1: was captured and recorded, and they had this issue, which

1606
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 1: I think is if you want to talk about surveillance

1607
01:38:51,479 --> 01:38:57,800
Speaker 1: kind of post nine eleven, the big problem with surveillance

1608
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:00,120
Speaker 1: and the extent to which is now used, is what

1609
01:39:00,160 --> 01:39:02,639
Speaker 1: do you do with all this data? Like it's it's

1610
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:08,320
Speaker 1: it's just too much. So they they were capturing all

1611
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:13,400
Speaker 1: this Yahoo video chat and attempting to add the metadata

1612
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:15,639
Speaker 1: and sort it, which is kind of interesting because that's

1613
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:17,680
Speaker 1: kind of to some extent kind of how something like

1614
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:21,360
Speaker 1: her story worked. Yeah. Yeah, And the biggest issue they

1615
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:23,360
Speaker 1: had and they put up this power point and it

1616
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:28,800
Speaker 1: blew my mind, was thirty of all the video chat

1617
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:32,400
Speaker 1: through Yahoo at this point was sexual in nature, and

1618
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:36,639
Speaker 1: they were concerned about the feelings of their operatives who

1619
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:39,280
Speaker 1: were doing the tagging of all this data, so they'd

1620
01:39:39,320 --> 01:39:41,519
Speaker 1: put their best computer minds on it, and they'd come

1621
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:44,240
Speaker 1: up with an algorithm which would detect an excessive amount

1622
01:39:44,240 --> 01:39:46,960
Speaker 1: of skin tone and would then kind of flag and

1623
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:49,519
Speaker 1: silo those clips. And I just remember reading this and

1624
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:52,639
Speaker 1: being like, what about the feelings of the people whose

1625
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:56,400
Speaker 1: skin tone you're capturing? Right? Like you weren't you weren't

1626
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:58,439
Speaker 1: stopping to think like why are we doing this? Shouldn't

1627
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 1: be doing this? You're you're you're solving for the problem

1628
01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:02,880
Speaker 1: of like how do we stop our agents seeing all

1629
01:40:02,920 --> 01:40:04,960
Speaker 1: this newity? And I think there was there was a

1630
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:07,000
Speaker 1: bunch of other anecdotes right in the snowed and stuff

1631
01:40:07,080 --> 01:40:12,439
Speaker 1: of people alongside him, like you know, looking through people's

1632
01:40:12,439 --> 01:40:15,240
Speaker 1: webcoun data and stuff and in a in a voyeuristic way,

1633
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:19,720
Speaker 1: and just this constant invasion of people's rights. So I

1634
01:40:19,800 --> 01:40:22,040
Speaker 1: think that it was one of those things where I

1635
01:40:22,120 --> 01:40:27,400
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is this is like new, Like, uh,

1636
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:30,519
Speaker 1: you know we now have you know you you you

1637
01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:35,120
Speaker 1: worry about certain levels of like your privacy being invaded,

1638
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:37,679
Speaker 1: and you would certainly worry if someone was letting themselves

1639
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:40,800
Speaker 1: into your house at night. But we suddenly found ourselves

1640
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:43,160
Speaker 1: in this position where we have these phones that we

1641
01:40:43,280 --> 01:40:45,680
Speaker 1: put by our bedside at night that have cameras and

1642
01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:50,719
Speaker 1: microphones that are pretty much just running right and capturing,

1643
01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:56,160
Speaker 1: and just the extent to which now technology has transformed surveillance.

1644
01:40:57,080 --> 01:40:59,560
Speaker 1: And that that was really interesting to me because I,

1645
01:41:00,560 --> 01:41:04,280
Speaker 1: um and a big thing I wanted to do, you know,

1646
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:07,760
Speaker 1: I've made her story. And like, growing up, I loved

1647
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:13,400
Speaker 1: cop shows, and I particularly loved the good ones, like Homicide,

1648
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:15,040
Speaker 1: Life on the Street in the US. There was a

1649
01:41:15,080 --> 01:41:18,000
Speaker 1: show in the UK called Cracker Um and these were like,

1650
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:23,280
Speaker 1: you know, somewhat nuanced in how they with policing, but

1651
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're still you know, we're in this

1652
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:28,400
Speaker 1: position now where we're starting to ask deeper questions about

1653
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:32,320
Speaker 1: whether we should watch this many cops shows. Yeah, when

1654
01:41:32,320 --> 01:41:36,240
Speaker 1: they're like the main thing on all television all the time. Yeah, exactly.

1655
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:40,080
Speaker 1: And that would be like when I made her story,

1656
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 1: Partly I pitched the bigger publishers like we should do

1657
01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:45,840
Speaker 1: the equivalent of a cop show like that, we should

1658
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:49,200
Speaker 1: do crime fictional cop show, video game, and they would

1659
01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:51,320
Speaker 1: always be like nah, And I would say, well, look,

1660
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:53,400
Speaker 1: this is like the evergreen. You know, if you're a

1661
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:55,080
Speaker 1: book publisher. You have a crime show, you have a

1662
01:41:55,120 --> 01:41:57,280
Speaker 1: crime book. You know, if you doing movies, you're going

1663
01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:01,960
Speaker 1: to have some movies with this genres it works, And

1664
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:04,439
Speaker 1: they would always kind of push against that. So when

1665
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 1: I made her story, that was, in fact, like the

1666
01:42:07,640 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 1: arc of of playing her story to some extent mirrors

1667
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 1: my ark in that. Like at the top of it,

1668
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:15,760
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to make an interesting detective game,

1669
01:42:16,720 --> 01:42:20,439
Speaker 1: and I want to deconstruct how detective stories work. And

1670
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:23,879
Speaker 1: I then started to do a bunch of research whereas

1671
01:42:24,320 --> 01:42:28,800
Speaker 1: digging into, well, how do actual criminal investigations work, how

1672
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:32,240
Speaker 1: does one interrogate the suspect doing all that stuff? And

1673
01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:35,200
Speaker 1: then I started to pull up what at the time

1674
01:42:35,280 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: like there was a bit it was slightly ahead of

1675
01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:40,160
Speaker 1: like the true crime explosion, but there was starting to

1676
01:42:40,240 --> 01:42:43,599
Speaker 1: be stuff on YouTube and in various places where footage

1677
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:46,479
Speaker 1: from real investigations was online, and it was starting to

1678
01:42:46,560 --> 01:42:49,720
Speaker 1: get a bit weird and interesting, and that people were

1679
01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:54,479
Speaker 1: kind of vicariously watching these things. And yeah, thats as

1680
01:42:54,760 --> 01:42:56,920
Speaker 1: questions they were trying to piece thegether their own kind

1681
01:42:56,960 --> 01:43:01,400
Speaker 1: of conclusions based on these leaked or sometimes officially released

1682
01:43:01,479 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 1: interview segments. Yeah, and and there was one in particularly

1683
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:08,240
Speaker 1: got really into the Jodi Arias case. It's just like

1684
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 1: and and the way the media spun that story and

1685
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:16,120
Speaker 1: just really dug into Oh, there's like sex and murder

1686
01:43:16,200 --> 01:43:18,920
Speaker 1: and Mormons, and there's this beautiful blonde woman who now

1687
01:43:19,080 --> 01:43:22,760
Speaker 1: when she goes to court has gone brunette, and they

1688
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:26,919
Speaker 1: were endlessly talking about on cable news like her parents

1689
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:30,559
Speaker 1: and setting her up as this kind of them fatal

1690
01:43:30,920 --> 01:43:35,200
Speaker 1: kind of ice maiden. On the slip side of this,

1691
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 1: I think there's like the thing with them the Making

1692
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:40,519
Speaker 1: the Murderer documentary, which I think I have some issues

1693
01:43:40,600 --> 01:43:43,840
Speaker 1: with how they handle the main guy, but particularly how

1694
01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:48,840
Speaker 1: they showed the totally immoral interrogation tactics used on used

1695
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: on Brandon the kid um, and that really cracked that

1696
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:54,759
Speaker 1: whole thing open, being like, yeah, the way the police

1697
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:58,920
Speaker 1: are interrogating minors without it was the lawyers is shocking.

1698
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:01,120
Speaker 1: And that was I was that was part of this

1699
01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:04,320
Speaker 1: transition for me, was was going into her story with like,

1700
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:06,840
Speaker 1: the hero of this is the detective. It's Andre Brower

1701
01:44:06,840 --> 01:44:09,000
Speaker 1: and homicide Life from the Street. It's the genius detective

1702
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:10,719
Speaker 1: that's going to come in there and crack this case.

1703
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:14,960
Speaker 1: And the more I dug into in cases like Jody's,

1704
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 1: where um there word various um aspects to that case.

1705
01:44:22,520 --> 01:44:26,320
Speaker 1: She definitely did murder her lover, but there are lots

1706
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: of questions around whether the relationship itself was particularly healthy. Um.

1707
01:44:30,880 --> 01:44:32,560
Speaker 1: And by the end of it, like all of my

1708
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 1: sympathy was with Jody, not with the interrogator who you

1709
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:40,080
Speaker 1: watch it and you realize that, like, the reason this

1710
01:44:40,240 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 1: person is in this situation is because their life has

1711
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:47,559
Speaker 1: gone very badly, and the reason for that is everything

1712
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:49,960
Speaker 1: that's happened in their life prior to this, and they've

1713
01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:52,560
Speaker 1: never spoken to anyone about any of this stuff. And

1714
01:44:52,800 --> 01:44:56,000
Speaker 1: suddenly they're in this room with the homicide detective who's like, hey,

1715
01:44:56,120 --> 01:44:58,200
Speaker 1: you can talk to me. I'm the first person that's

1716
01:44:58,240 --> 01:45:00,240
Speaker 1: going to sit and listen to you, and and all

1717
01:45:00,280 --> 01:45:02,920
Speaker 1: these tricks that they use to just get people talking,

1718
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:05,240
Speaker 1: and it becomes very intimate and becomes kind of like

1719
01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:08,400
Speaker 1: therapy session. But by the end of it so so

1720
01:45:08,560 --> 01:45:11,479
Speaker 1: for me, Like the hook of her story is, oh,

1721
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:13,800
Speaker 1: you get to solve a murder, but really, by the

1722
01:45:13,920 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 1: end of it, it's like a character port should entirely

1723
01:45:18,880 --> 01:45:24,040
Speaker 1: be with her that is less about seeing justice done right.

1724
01:45:24,120 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 1: So I even but even coming away from that, I

1725
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:30,320
Speaker 1: was like, I still feel slightly uncomfortable with with kind

1726
01:45:30,320 --> 01:45:33,800
Speaker 1: of having made this thing that is reveling in how

1727
01:45:33,960 --> 01:45:36,679
Speaker 1: much fun it is to be involved in the police

1728
01:45:36,680 --> 01:45:41,160
Speaker 1: work or whatever. And so I was definitely thinking about

1729
01:45:41,200 --> 01:45:44,560
Speaker 1: the snows and stuff thinking about that aspect and the

1730
01:45:44,640 --> 01:45:51,960
Speaker 1: extent to which technology has just so empowered policing in

1731
01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:55,920
Speaker 1: general to the point where it's there's this great um.

1732
01:45:56,320 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 1: Like one of the core themes that I wanted to

1733
01:45:58,240 --> 01:46:00,559
Speaker 1: dig into and telling lies was the when you see

1734
01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:04,240
Speaker 1: people try and defend this stuff and defend policing in general,

1735
01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:07,519
Speaker 1: is they try and set it up so that you

1736
01:46:07,640 --> 01:46:11,439
Speaker 1: basically have They talk in terms of families and very

1737
01:46:11,560 --> 01:46:14,120
Speaker 1: close relationships, so they're kind of like, well, the government

1738
01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:17,560
Speaker 1: is your parent, and they're trying to look after you.

1739
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:20,360
Speaker 1: And you understand as a parent, you're going to sometimes

1740
01:46:22,200 --> 01:46:24,479
Speaker 1: invade the privacy of your children or sometimes you're going

1741
01:46:24,520 --> 01:46:27,599
Speaker 1: to inhibit their freedoms because you're trying to protect them.

1742
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:30,400
Speaker 1: And we all understand that, and that's part of being human,

1743
01:46:30,640 --> 01:46:32,720
Speaker 1: and that's all that's happening here with government, right We're

1744
01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:35,160
Speaker 1: trying to protect you from the Big Bad the Evil.

1745
01:46:35,320 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 1: I sort of like there's some tweet from the YPD

1746
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:41,559
Speaker 1: the other day that was like, you'll be come, You'll

1747
01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:44,560
Speaker 1: come running when evil is on your doorstep. Someone was

1748
01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:49,720
Speaker 1: saying something macros and and and for me, once you

1749
01:46:49,920 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 1: you take that understanding of how people relate directly to

1750
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:56,600
Speaker 1: which they have, families, work, the second you scale it

1751
01:46:57,200 --> 01:46:59,720
Speaker 1: to the size of government, it breaks like that you

1752
01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:02,280
Speaker 1: d not extent that metaphor. And then when you add

1753
01:47:02,400 --> 01:47:06,920
Speaker 1: in tech, um, you know the extent to which uh,

1754
01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 1: you know, privacy has been degraded, our freedoms. Um. You

1755
01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:15,200
Speaker 1: know when you start just blanket looking for crime, right,

1756
01:47:16,360 --> 01:47:18,640
Speaker 1: you start creating all the systemic issues that we have

1757
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:23,439
Speaker 1: just suddenly become amplified. Um. So that that to me

1758
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:28,400
Speaker 1: was kind of interesting. Um, well, you know, here is

1759
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:33,000
Speaker 1: like a means to explore that. And I like one

1760
01:47:33,040 --> 01:47:35,400
Speaker 1: of the things that was interesting to me about her

1761
01:47:35,439 --> 01:47:39,640
Speaker 1: story that in retrospect was the extent to which it

1762
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 1: was about watching video, which seems like a dumb thing

1763
01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:45,000
Speaker 1: to say, but like the choice to use real video

1764
01:47:46,360 --> 01:47:49,400
Speaker 1: kind of inspired by watching all these interrogation piece of

1765
01:47:49,439 --> 01:47:52,200
Speaker 1: footage from Jodi and people. Um, you know it was

1766
01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:54,720
Speaker 1: was kind of made, oh yeah, that makes sense, and

1767
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 1: I just kind of got on with it. But then

1768
01:47:56,120 --> 01:47:58,439
Speaker 1: looking back, I was like, oh, well, it's interesting because

1769
01:47:58,479 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 1: people talk about this game as being an interactive movie,

1770
01:48:01,840 --> 01:48:03,680
Speaker 1: but it's nothing like a movie. No, not at all,

1771
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:06,280
Speaker 1: and it's not how movies work. It just happens that

1772
01:48:06,400 --> 01:48:09,960
Speaker 1: it uses a video camera. Only similarity is that it

1773
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:13,120
Speaker 1: has live action footage. That yea. So I was like,

1774
01:48:13,240 --> 01:48:16,040
Speaker 1: I really want to go even further into that texture.

1775
01:48:16,080 --> 01:48:17,880
Speaker 1: And so I was just thinking about and when I

1776
01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:20,200
Speaker 1: was starting to do my research, like the idea of

1777
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:25,880
Speaker 1: surveillance and and the commonalities between like classic old school surveillance,

1778
01:48:26,160 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 1: I you know, someone sat in a car some binoculars

1779
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:34,800
Speaker 1: watching someone and and modern surveillance. The commonalities that it's

1780
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:38,439
Speaker 1: quite boring, right, there's just a lot of sitting and

1781
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:43,120
Speaker 1: watching doing nothing. Yeah, right. And but out of that

1782
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:45,919
Speaker 1: and when you kind of read the first hand accounts

1783
01:48:45,960 --> 01:48:48,160
Speaker 1: of the people doing the surveillance or some of the

1784
01:48:48,200 --> 01:48:52,080
Speaker 1: depictions of this media, like there's a level of intimacy

1785
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:57,000
Speaker 1: that you get with the person you're surveilling, right where

1786
01:48:57,200 --> 01:48:58,760
Speaker 1: you know, if you're just sat watching them, when you

1787
01:48:58,880 --> 01:49:00,800
Speaker 1: chef someone's life, if you're listening to a bug in

1788
01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:03,679
Speaker 1: someone's kitchen and just hearing all the just everyday ship

1789
01:49:03,720 --> 01:49:07,200
Speaker 1: in their lives, or if you are you know, watching

1790
01:49:07,240 --> 01:49:10,759
Speaker 1: them through some kind of technology. Um, you're just spending

1791
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:13,320
Speaker 1: all this time with them, and that's like a that's

1792
01:49:13,360 --> 01:49:16,320
Speaker 1: like a very non cinematic thing. It's just like this

1793
01:49:16,479 --> 01:49:19,000
Speaker 1: that menu sha and the time stretching out of just

1794
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:23,320
Speaker 1: being present with somebody. And that was kind of interesting

1795
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:27,000
Speaker 1: to me of just kind of putting you in that

1796
01:49:27,160 --> 01:49:31,720
Speaker 1: headspace and kind of thinking about what that means. I

1797
01:49:31,840 --> 01:49:34,680
Speaker 1: think that totally gets through because of the way you

1798
01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:37,280
Speaker 1: break up the conversations and telling lies. You have to

1799
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:40,679
Speaker 1: sit and watch these characters as they're just doing nothing

1800
01:49:40,840 --> 01:49:44,040
Speaker 1: for sometimes like like over five minutes. They're just like

1801
01:49:44,160 --> 01:49:47,679
Speaker 1: sitting there, um, and you do get like very intimate

1802
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:49,840
Speaker 1: with these characters, but it almost like in a very

1803
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 1: like creepy way where you like you feel like I

1804
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:57,040
Speaker 1: shouldn't be here, which is kind of the general feeling

1805
01:49:57,080 --> 01:49:59,760
Speaker 1: of telling us really interesting because I like some people

1806
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:02,440
Speaker 1: to have a very and this was you know, completely

1807
01:50:03,120 --> 01:50:07,640
Speaker 1: again like trying to process how I felt watching the

1808
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:10,880
Speaker 1: like the videos of all the various police interrogations and stuff.

1809
01:50:10,960 --> 01:50:14,200
Speaker 1: Was like, this is fascinating because there's human beings were

1810
01:50:14,240 --> 01:50:17,439
Speaker 1: fascinated by other human beings, and here is this extremely interesting,

1811
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:20,639
Speaker 1: dramatic stuff where people are just really spilling their lives out.

1812
01:50:20,920 --> 01:50:23,320
Speaker 1: That's why true crime blew up, right, But then you

1813
01:50:23,439 --> 01:50:26,439
Speaker 1: have all these moral questions around it. And obviously with

1814
01:50:27,400 --> 01:50:29,800
Speaker 1: turning lies, it's inspired by lots of real things, but

1815
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:33,360
Speaker 1: it's fake and you're watching actors act this stuff. But

1816
01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 1: still some people would have this real visceral reaction of

1817
01:50:36,120 --> 01:50:38,880
Speaker 1: like I shouldn't be watching some of this stuff, and

1818
01:50:39,240 --> 01:50:42,000
Speaker 1: I'd be like, I mean, you you can. It's like

1819
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:45,440
Speaker 1: that was that was where it became really not cinematic

1820
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:47,920
Speaker 1: to me, was like, you know, if you're watching a

1821
01:50:49,000 --> 01:50:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, a noir film or you know, a thriller

1822
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:56,720
Speaker 1: and you have you know, or even like the The

1823
01:50:56,800 --> 01:50:58,519
Speaker 1: thing for the domestic stuff for me was, you know,

1824
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:00,720
Speaker 1: you could watch and it was sitcom, watching any a

1825
01:51:00,800 --> 01:51:05,200
Speaker 1: normal sitcom, and the husband and wife sat in bed chatting.

1826
01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:07,600
Speaker 1: At no point do you feel like I shouldn't be

1827
01:51:07,680 --> 01:51:10,719
Speaker 1: here because you're in the kind of classic Hollywood invisible

1828
01:51:10,800 --> 01:51:13,959
Speaker 1: camera set up. You're this, you know, you have permission

1829
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:16,600
Speaker 1: to be there as the invisible camera spectator, and it

1830
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:19,240
Speaker 1: doesn't feel as weird as it would if you're hiding

1831
01:51:19,280 --> 01:51:23,320
Speaker 1: in the closet of this couple's bedroom. Um So, with

1832
01:51:23,439 --> 01:51:26,400
Speaker 1: the setup I'm telling Lies, you immediately feel like, oh,

1833
01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:30,400
Speaker 1: like this, I am in this position that I shouldn't be.

1834
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:35,240
Speaker 1: So suddenly all those more domestic moments become charged with

1835
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:37,880
Speaker 1: like a very different vibe. Yeah, because you're watching them

1836
01:51:37,920 --> 01:51:40,200
Speaker 1: and you're you're not invited, like right, you're you know,

1837
01:51:40,360 --> 01:51:42,760
Speaker 1: you're sitting looking at this ns A horror drive and

1838
01:51:42,760 --> 01:51:44,200
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, I'm not supposed to be watching this

1839
01:51:44,360 --> 01:51:46,920
Speaker 1: like this, this this isn't They never invited me into

1840
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:50,960
Speaker 1: this conversation. Telling Lies very much feels like a much

1841
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:54,200
Speaker 1: more mature game than her story, not in terms of

1842
01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:56,599
Speaker 1: like has like more mature content, but like in terms

1843
01:51:56,640 --> 01:51:59,760
Speaker 1: of like this concept growing up and like evolving and

1844
01:52:00,120 --> 01:52:03,000
Speaker 1: gaining more depth. Um particularly because you know, not only

1845
01:52:03,040 --> 01:52:05,479
Speaker 1: just because it has way more characters, but because you know,

1846
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:07,960
Speaker 1: you get to know all of your kind of games

1847
01:52:08,040 --> 01:52:10,680
Speaker 1: deal with some degree of like characters lying to you

1848
01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:12,639
Speaker 1: and like just doing like straight lines to your face.

1849
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:14,800
Speaker 1: That's kind of a That's my read on a lot

1850
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:17,200
Speaker 1: of a lot of your games. Um, I mean you're

1851
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:20,920
Speaker 1: the game is called Telling Lies, so so you definitely

1852
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:22,840
Speaker 1: see like elements of of you know, all of these

1853
01:52:22,840 --> 01:52:24,920
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is true and what is not.

1854
01:52:25,439 --> 01:52:28,679
Speaker 1: I think it is interesting looking at like how easier

1855
01:52:28,760 --> 01:52:33,400
Speaker 1: it is to lie via these technological platforms. Um, I

1856
01:52:33,439 --> 01:52:36,240
Speaker 1: don't know, to just like you feel like telling the

1857
01:52:36,360 --> 01:52:38,280
Speaker 1: truth is just so much more work and you may

1858
01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:40,920
Speaker 1: as well just get through this conversation by doing a

1859
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:43,639
Speaker 1: few white lives, which is that inspiral out of control. Um.

1860
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:46,400
Speaker 1: When you combine this with you know, law enforcement, infiltration

1861
01:52:46,439 --> 01:52:47,720
Speaker 1: and all this kind of stuff, he gets it gets

1862
01:52:47,800 --> 01:52:50,800
Speaker 1: very complicated, very quickly. Um. One thing that I think

1863
01:52:50,840 --> 01:52:53,240
Speaker 1: you guys handled very well in Telling Lies was kind

1864
01:52:53,240 --> 01:52:56,000
Speaker 1: of the activism side of things. So like when when

1865
01:52:56,040 --> 01:52:58,679
Speaker 1: I play this game, like almost immediately after coming back

1866
01:52:59,160 --> 01:53:01,920
Speaker 1: from the stop line, re protests, um and like and

1867
01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:04,519
Speaker 1: and like an Earth First gathering, you know, everyone there

1868
01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:08,400
Speaker 1: is always very people try to be aware of surveillance

1869
01:53:08,439 --> 01:53:09,880
Speaker 1: to be like, okay, you know, you don't talk about

1870
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:13,479
Speaker 1: certain things if there's phones nearby and stuff. So so

1871
01:53:13,720 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 1: that whole side of things was very interesting to like

1872
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:19,040
Speaker 1: play this game right afterwards because you have to see

1873
01:53:19,040 --> 01:53:21,040
Speaker 1: like the other side of things, being like, okay, if

1874
01:53:21,080 --> 01:53:23,840
Speaker 1: the the FBI is infiltrating this group, here's you know,

1875
01:53:24,280 --> 01:53:25,560
Speaker 1: one of the ways that they do it, and like

1876
01:53:25,800 --> 01:53:29,759
Speaker 1: that from my perspective being you know, in activism spaces

1877
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:32,000
Speaker 1: for a while, not just like environmental ones, but you

1878
01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:35,679
Speaker 1: know other ones like here in Portland. Um, you had

1879
01:53:36,040 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 1: you handled this topic very accurately. Um, where what kind

1880
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:43,200
Speaker 1: of stuff did you pull from to kind of create

1881
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:47,880
Speaker 1: these like these you know environments and interactions between people

1882
01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:49,760
Speaker 1: because I'm not sure if you haven't experience yourself and

1883
01:53:49,760 --> 01:53:52,160
Speaker 1: stuff like this, or if you've got people onto like

1884
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:54,840
Speaker 1: like you talk to people who are more experienced activists,

1885
01:53:55,240 --> 01:53:57,280
Speaker 1: what was kind of your inspiration for like, you know,

1886
01:53:57,439 --> 01:53:59,960
Speaker 1: the opposite side of things, not on the law enforcement.

1887
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:02,040
Speaker 1: So that was that was like one of the big

1888
01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:07,640
Speaker 1: initial jumping off points. So uh like in terms of

1889
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:11,479
Speaker 1: the kind of real life inspirations, Like the seed of

1890
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:15,560
Speaker 1: this whole thing was Remember when this was it was

1891
01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:19,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say two could be completely wrong here, but

1892
01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:22,960
Speaker 1: it was The Guardian in the UK I think broke

1893
01:54:23,040 --> 01:54:25,760
Speaker 1: the story, but it was and and we've recently had

1894
01:54:25,840 --> 01:54:30,519
Speaker 1: some good progress in this this area, but broke the

1895
01:54:30,600 --> 01:54:36,240
Speaker 1: story of this UK spy Cops operation, which was a

1896
01:54:36,400 --> 01:54:41,040
Speaker 1: specific unit within the London Police whose job was to

1897
01:54:41,440 --> 01:54:47,240
Speaker 1: infiltrate groups, to surveil them from the inside. And um,

1898
01:54:47,760 --> 01:54:51,320
Speaker 1: it was horrific. And they're like a couple of things

1899
01:54:51,360 --> 01:54:54,440
Speaker 1: about it that were horrific. One of them was that like,

1900
01:54:54,720 --> 01:54:59,120
Speaker 1: essentially their modus operandi was to find vulnerable young women

1901
01:54:59,280 --> 01:55:03,800
Speaker 1: on the periph of groups, target them romantically, and then

1902
01:55:03,960 --> 01:55:06,600
Speaker 1: they would be the collateral to get you know, to

1903
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:10,720
Speaker 1: have people then more solidly enter into these groups. And

1904
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:14,560
Speaker 1: then they had like a whole you know, stepped plan

1905
01:55:14,720 --> 01:55:17,080
Speaker 1: of like once you're in, how you kind of would

1906
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:23,040
Speaker 1: would destabilize steer these groups from within. Um. And the

1907
01:55:24,280 --> 01:55:29,240
Speaker 1: the thing that really made this even worse UM was

1908
01:55:29,360 --> 01:55:32,800
Speaker 1: the fact that most of the groups, I think maybe

1909
01:55:32,840 --> 01:55:36,040
Speaker 1: all of the groups targeted with this particular unit were

1910
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:43,760
Speaker 1: green activists. There's this incredible, incredible, like you couldn't make

1911
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:48,400
Speaker 1: this stuff up. But there's a famous libel case where

1912
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:51,280
Speaker 1: McDonald's was suing these these two activists in the UK

1913
01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:56,520
Speaker 1: right because they were putting up flyers exposing some of

1914
01:55:56,600 --> 01:56:01,200
Speaker 1: the practices of McDonald's and the group that they were

1915
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:03,680
Speaker 1: members of, which I think at this point was called

1916
01:56:03,720 --> 01:56:06,040
Speaker 1: Green Piece, but it was different to the kind of

1917
01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:10,840
Speaker 1: more famous Green Piece in London. Prior to them doing

1918
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:15,640
Speaker 1: this big kind of McDonald's thing, UM was losing members

1919
01:56:15,760 --> 01:56:17,920
Speaker 1: and it got to a point where there were so

1920
01:56:18,040 --> 01:56:21,200
Speaker 1: few people in this group that it would have shut

1921
01:56:21,320 --> 01:56:25,280
Speaker 1: down had it not been for the fact that there

1922
01:56:25,320 --> 01:56:30,280
Speaker 1: were a large number of undercover cops in this group.

1923
01:56:30,560 --> 01:56:32,920
Speaker 1: So you know, if you imagine at some point they

1924
01:56:32,960 --> 01:56:36,400
Speaker 1: were actually more undercover cops and private security people undercover

1925
01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:39,960
Speaker 1: in this group that actual activists UM, which has enabled

1926
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 1: the group to continue. And in fact, the original flyer

1927
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:47,640
Speaker 1: that they put out was written I forget the guy's

1928
01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:51,280
Speaker 1: name now by one of these undercover cops. He wrote

1929
01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 1: the copy for this flyer that went out and then

1930
01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:57,920
Speaker 1: was you know, saw this these people dragged up in

1931
01:56:58,000 --> 01:57:00,840
Speaker 1: court and was this huge you know, Donald's won the case,

1932
01:57:00,920 --> 01:57:03,160
Speaker 1: but in terms of pr it was hugely damaging to them.

1933
01:57:03,680 --> 01:57:07,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, that that for me was the thing that

1934
01:57:07,200 --> 01:57:09,200
Speaker 1: seemed even more a point because because here you had

1935
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:15,160
Speaker 1: this story of the state sanctioning the you know, one

1936
01:57:15,240 --> 01:57:18,280
Speaker 1: of the most terrible abuses like Essentially, you know, what

1937
01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:23,680
Speaker 1: was happening was pretty easy to to kind of call

1938
01:57:23,760 --> 01:57:27,560
Speaker 1: it rape, right. There was women in sexual relationships with

1939
01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:31,160
Speaker 1: people and thinking it was consensual, but not realizing that

1940
01:57:31,400 --> 01:57:33,720
Speaker 1: they this was you know, what they were getting into

1941
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:36,520
Speaker 1: is not what they thought it was. And so this

1942
01:57:36,960 --> 01:57:42,760
Speaker 1: was just so appalling and like from a just to

1943
01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:51,080
Speaker 1: kind of base emotional level, just it was so hard

1944
01:57:51,120 --> 01:57:54,360
Speaker 1: for me to imagine the pain of um and these

1945
01:57:54,400 --> 01:57:58,520
Speaker 1: women when relationships with these undercover officers for years and

1946
01:57:58,560 --> 01:58:01,280
Speaker 1: then and and out of the modus operanda was when

1947
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:03,720
Speaker 1: you were done, you had to exit and disappear, and

1948
01:58:03,760 --> 01:58:07,600
Speaker 1: they had this whole plan where the cops would claim

1949
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:09,520
Speaker 1: that they were being followed and that they were worried,

1950
01:58:09,640 --> 01:58:12,360
Speaker 1: and then they would disappear, and then they would call

1951
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:14,760
Speaker 1: from some European country and say that they've kind of

1952
01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:17,640
Speaker 1: fled the country because they were worried that the cops

1953
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:19,760
Speaker 1: were onto them, and then they would slowly kind of

1954
01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:22,040
Speaker 1: disappear and this you know, some of these were kind

1955
01:58:22,080 --> 01:58:24,840
Speaker 1: of pre modern internet, so it was easier for someone

1956
01:58:24,920 --> 01:58:28,360
Speaker 1: to kind of disappear. But this stuff totally happened in

1957
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:31,000
Speaker 1: the Green Scare in the States, in you know, around

1958
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:34,640
Speaker 1: this was around. This was my big question was was

1959
01:58:34,760 --> 01:58:37,880
Speaker 1: this you know, some of these cases were kind of

1960
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:41,360
Speaker 1: the original inspiration And when I started thinking about trying

1961
01:58:41,400 --> 01:58:44,480
Speaker 1: to tell a story inspired by their originally it starts

1962
01:58:44,520 --> 01:58:47,600
Speaker 1: off and and and it's still in based in the

1963
01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:51,760
Speaker 1: UK and based on these things. And there was a particular, ah,

1964
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:55,720
Speaker 1: a particular flavor to it where the cops doing this

1965
01:58:55,880 --> 01:58:58,160
Speaker 1: work it was part of the matt Police who were

1966
01:58:58,280 --> 01:59:02,760
Speaker 1: you know, that's the more kind of gang story, Like

1967
01:59:03,080 --> 01:59:05,960
Speaker 1: there's there's a real reputation that the Met Police have.

1968
01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:09,720
Speaker 1: So these cops that were chosen for this work were

1969
01:59:09,760 --> 01:59:11,560
Speaker 1: the ones that were a bit more kind of marcho

1970
01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:14,080
Speaker 1: and edgy, and there were there was I mean, there

1971
01:59:14,120 --> 01:59:15,840
Speaker 1: was so much stuff to it was horrific, Like they

1972
01:59:15,880 --> 01:59:22,800
Speaker 1: would only pick cops that were married, um because they

1973
01:59:22,920 --> 01:59:27,960
Speaker 1: felt that that h gave them some level of ability

1974
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:32,240
Speaker 1: to be sleeping with these activists and not lose themselves

1975
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:34,600
Speaker 1: in it. Um. But obviously the wives didn't know what

1976
01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:37,640
Speaker 1: was hapdening um and and there's just there's so many

1977
01:59:37,720 --> 01:59:41,080
Speaker 1: layers of this that I just thought was it was awful,

1978
01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:43,640
Speaker 1: And coming off the first story, I was like, well,

1979
01:59:44,320 --> 01:59:47,800
Speaker 1: I would love to tell an undercover cops story in

1980
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:52,800
Speaker 1: which we acknowledge that the undercover cop is bad. Yeah,

1981
01:59:53,080 --> 01:59:55,600
Speaker 1: they aren't, like you know, because because it's such a

1982
01:59:55,720 --> 01:59:59,120
Speaker 1: classic trope, is the undercover cops story. Because you get

1983
01:59:59,200 --> 02:00:00,440
Speaker 1: to have your cake and eat here. You get to

1984
02:00:00,440 --> 02:00:02,760
Speaker 1: see someone on both sides the law, you get, you

1985
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:05,960
Speaker 1: get all the tension and thrills of it. But usually,

1986
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, even if the if the movie or

1987
02:00:09,560 --> 02:00:13,320
Speaker 1: the story or whatever has a bittersweet ending, the protagonist

1988
02:00:13,360 --> 02:00:17,000
Speaker 1: is always the undercover cop. And ultimately, because they're the protagonist,

1989
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:19,360
Speaker 1: they're the one that your heart goes to, right. And

1990
02:00:19,840 --> 02:00:22,800
Speaker 1: the secondary characters, whether that's like the wife and Donnie

1991
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:25,520
Speaker 1: Brasco or Good Fellows or something, you know, they basically

1992
02:00:25,600 --> 02:00:27,480
Speaker 1: serve as a foil to the main character. So I

1993
02:00:27,560 --> 02:00:31,800
Speaker 1: was like, well, can we tell a story where, um,

1994
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,680
Speaker 1: we we treat the wife and the activist who's being

1995
02:00:35,680 --> 02:00:37,880
Speaker 1: targeted and the other people on the periphery of this

1996
02:00:38,040 --> 02:00:42,760
Speaker 1: guy think more about their perspective on this world, and

1997
02:00:42,840 --> 02:00:48,360
Speaker 1: let's acknowledge from our perspective that this is wrong. Everything

1998
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:50,520
Speaker 1: that's happening is wrong and it's not justified. And then

1999
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:53,000
Speaker 1: let's just see what the impact is on people. UM.

2000
02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:56,800
Speaker 1: So once we started developing it, and when I was

2001
02:00:56,840 --> 02:01:00,960
Speaker 1: speaking to Anna partner about doing it, UM, I felt like, oh,

2002
02:01:01,040 --> 02:01:04,800
Speaker 1: we should move this to the States um to make

2003
02:01:04,880 --> 02:01:10,040
Speaker 1: it feel certainly as well, because the larger audiences American

2004
02:01:10,160 --> 02:01:13,840
Speaker 1: to to kind of reiterate and make it feel kind

2005
02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:17,280
Speaker 1: of more identifiable and have it be less quaint and British. Um.

2006
02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:19,840
Speaker 1: So my number one question from day one was like, well,

2007
02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:22,760
Speaker 1: does this ship happen in the States and as uch

2008
02:01:22,800 --> 02:01:24,400
Speaker 1: does it happen in the same way. And so we

2009
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:27,720
Speaker 1: brought on a researcher who then started pulling stuff up

2010
02:01:27,760 --> 02:01:31,880
Speaker 1: and and the big thing for me was replacing the

2011
02:01:32,120 --> 02:01:37,920
Speaker 1: undercover group the met with the FBI, and and then

2012
02:01:37,960 --> 02:01:40,720
Speaker 1: I that became fascinating to me because then I started

2013
02:01:40,760 --> 02:01:44,560
Speaker 1: digging into the FBI and understanding their history and everything

2014
02:01:44,640 --> 02:01:49,400
Speaker 1: that's wrong there. But yeah, immediately I start seeing all

2015
02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:54,160
Speaker 1: these great examples of yeah, this explicit infiltration of green

2016
02:01:54,240 --> 02:01:59,720
Speaker 1: groups UM so, pretty horrific cases of entrapment um where

2017
02:02:00,160 --> 02:02:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, people infiltrate these groups and then encourage them

2018
02:02:03,680 --> 02:02:07,440
Speaker 1: to do more extreme and violent things. On the record.

2019
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:13,000
Speaker 1: It's the point where you're listening to like recorded FBI stuff,

2020
02:02:13,120 --> 02:02:15,440
Speaker 1: and and you can hear the group being like, I'm

2021
02:02:15,440 --> 02:02:17,440
Speaker 1: not sure about that, Like that doesn't sound like a

2022
02:02:17,560 --> 02:02:22,040
Speaker 1: great idea, dude, And the the FBI person is they're

2023
02:02:22,080 --> 02:02:25,200
Speaker 1: going like, what, I don't know, I really do think

2024
02:02:25,200 --> 02:02:29,400
Speaker 1: we should blow this bridge up, guys. And it's so obvious,

2025
02:02:29,600 --> 02:02:31,760
Speaker 1: like when you listen to which is why a lot

2026
02:02:31,840 --> 02:02:35,360
Speaker 1: of these cases have ultimately been thrown out. But yeah,

2027
02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:39,120
Speaker 1: it was it was. It was, I guess for the project,

2028
02:02:39,200 --> 02:02:42,880
Speaker 1: reassuring to see that all this stuff was happening over here. Yeah.

2029
02:02:43,440 --> 02:02:47,760
Speaker 1: And the FBI, like the specific FBI agent that we

2030
02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:52,840
Speaker 1: kind of follow definitely feels very American and feels very real. Um.

2031
02:02:53,440 --> 02:02:56,400
Speaker 1: I really like the actor that you got to play him. Um,

2032
02:02:56,560 --> 02:02:58,400
Speaker 1: he definitely feels like a lot of kind of the

2033
02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:03,800
Speaker 1: law enforcement dudes who kind of handle this side of things. Um.

2034
02:03:04,840 --> 02:03:06,840
Speaker 1: That was that was That was definitely that was like

2035
02:03:06,920 --> 02:03:10,480
Speaker 1: an FBI. He became like the fbiis of it became

2036
02:03:10,560 --> 02:03:12,960
Speaker 1: very important to it. And it was interesting the way

2037
02:03:13,440 --> 02:03:16,360
Speaker 1: that the FBI they had this brand, which is partly

2038
02:03:17,280 --> 02:03:19,480
Speaker 1: reinforced by the media, Like they had the great idea

2039
02:03:19,520 --> 02:03:24,120
Speaker 1: back in forties or fifties to themselves fund and support

2040
02:03:24,360 --> 02:03:27,280
Speaker 1: cop shows. So this whole idea we have through the

2041
02:03:27,440 --> 02:03:30,720
Speaker 1: X Files, through pretty much every serial killer media whatever.

2042
02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:33,919
Speaker 1: The idea of the FBI is being like the smartest

2043
02:03:34,000 --> 02:03:36,960
Speaker 1: and the best, like that's put out by them. But

2044
02:03:37,440 --> 02:03:41,440
Speaker 1: it's really interesting to see they believe that, like they

2045
02:03:41,480 --> 02:03:46,560
Speaker 1: are beyond approach and like they have higher standards for like,

2046
02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:48,240
Speaker 1: you know, if you want to join the FBI, there

2047
02:03:48,320 --> 02:03:51,360
Speaker 1: is in theory this kind of moral moral check that

2048
02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:57,400
Speaker 1: you have to pass. BUTTBI agent flipping backwards and shooting

2049
02:03:57,480 --> 02:03:59,520
Speaker 1: somebody with his gun falls out of his pants at

2050
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:02,920
Speaker 1: a club. Well, then you read about it and you're like,

2051
02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:06,760
Speaker 1: actually the experience, the lived experience, and we would it

2052
02:04:06,880 --> 02:04:08,600
Speaker 1: was it was so bizarre because I was like, I

2053
02:04:08,640 --> 02:04:10,840
Speaker 1: really want to understand what it's like to be an

2054
02:04:10,880 --> 02:04:15,560
Speaker 1: FBI wife, and um, let's find let's reach out the

2055
02:04:15,680 --> 02:04:17,560
Speaker 1: research I've done. Some of the stuff we pulled up.

2056
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:20,760
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, it, it does sound pretty bad.

2057
02:04:21,160 --> 02:04:24,200
Speaker 1: Like there's a requirement if you're an FBI agent you

2058
02:04:24,320 --> 02:04:27,880
Speaker 1: have to move every three years or something. So if

2059
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:29,920
Speaker 1: you're the wife to an FBI agent, you essentially move

2060
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:32,080
Speaker 1: every three years, and so you never get a chance

2061
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:35,200
Speaker 1: to build your own career or to make roots. And

2062
02:04:35,280 --> 02:04:38,120
Speaker 1: so you're generally and the wage is not great, which

2063
02:04:38,200 --> 02:04:43,680
Speaker 1: is why they're very vulnerable to uh corruption really. Um,

2064
02:04:44,240 --> 02:04:47,920
Speaker 1: so you're generally living. There's usually kind of areas where

2065
02:04:47,960 --> 02:04:51,200
Speaker 1: all the FBI families live, so it's this very insular

2066
02:04:51,320 --> 02:04:57,080
Speaker 1: world and you you start to see where some of

2067
02:04:57,160 --> 02:05:00,440
Speaker 1: these wives have come out and spoken about it. They're like,

2068
02:05:00,720 --> 02:05:05,000
Speaker 1: it's really shitty because husbands who believe themselves to be

2069
02:05:05,120 --> 02:05:08,360
Speaker 1: like you know, March of superheroes get to disappear for

2070
02:05:08,440 --> 02:05:10,080
Speaker 1: three days at a time and we can never ask

2071
02:05:10,160 --> 02:05:11,920
Speaker 1: where they are or what they're doing. And there's this

2072
02:05:12,040 --> 02:05:13,680
Speaker 1: kind of internal code which you see a lot of

2073
02:05:13,760 --> 02:05:15,840
Speaker 1: law enforcement right where they will cover for each other

2074
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:20,840
Speaker 1: and protect each other. Um. And you you suddenly start

2075
02:05:21,240 --> 02:05:25,040
Speaker 1: to see that like, ah, you know this, this is

2076
02:05:25,800 --> 02:05:30,480
Speaker 1: not like And in fact, I remember reading sort of

2077
02:05:31,040 --> 02:05:33,640
Speaker 1: the guy who inspired like Silenced the Lambs. The TV

2078
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:35,680
Speaker 1: show mind Hunter was based on him in his book

2079
02:05:36,400 --> 02:05:38,800
Speaker 1: Us this guy who was one of the early kind

2080
02:05:38,840 --> 02:05:43,880
Speaker 1: of serial killer profiling people within the FBI. You read

2081
02:05:43,960 --> 02:05:47,520
Speaker 1: his book, It's a terrible book. When I heard that

2082
02:05:47,600 --> 02:05:50,320
Speaker 1: Fincher was adapting, I was like, wow, good luck. Um,

2083
02:05:50,760 --> 02:05:54,560
Speaker 1: but it's incredible the lack of self awareness he has. Um,

2084
02:05:55,040 --> 02:05:58,360
Speaker 1: this guy is so sexist and so bad. Every time

2085
02:05:58,400 --> 02:06:01,400
Speaker 1: he introduces a warm then it starts by from the

2086
02:06:01,480 --> 02:06:05,440
Speaker 1: legs up like he's describing it and um. At the

2087
02:06:05,560 --> 02:06:07,400
Speaker 1: very end of the book, he reveals that his wife

2088
02:06:07,520 --> 02:06:09,480
Speaker 1: leaves him, and he kind of writes as if this

2089
02:06:09,600 --> 02:06:12,240
Speaker 1: is a huge surprise, and yeah, he's calling us from

2090
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:14,760
Speaker 1: chapter one and he has the best buddy. So like

2091
02:06:14,880 --> 02:06:17,800
Speaker 1: the guy who's who's the kind of number two in

2092
02:06:17,960 --> 02:06:20,960
Speaker 1: mind hunt on TV, there's like a real life version

2093
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:24,720
Speaker 1: of him. And halfway through the book, his wife hires

2094
02:06:24,960 --> 02:06:27,840
Speaker 1: an assassin to kind of hitman to come in and

2095
02:06:27,960 --> 02:06:30,760
Speaker 1: kill him, and the guy just narrowly avoids it. And

2096
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:34,240
Speaker 1: the guy writing the book is like, what an evil woman?

2097
02:06:34,440 --> 02:06:36,920
Speaker 1: Like my poor friend, and you're like, well, having a minute,

2098
02:06:36,960 --> 02:06:39,680
Speaker 1: what did your what was your friend like? Yeah, what

2099
02:06:39,920 --> 02:06:42,600
Speaker 1: was going on? Yeah, there's there's there's probably something going

2100
02:06:42,640 --> 02:06:47,520
Speaker 1: on there. So yeah it was Yeah that that sense

2101
02:06:47,760 --> 02:06:52,720
Speaker 1: that which I think for me, expanded beautifully to the

2102
02:06:52,760 --> 02:06:56,040
Speaker 1: bigger picture of like that character kind of believing that

2103
02:06:56,200 --> 02:06:58,880
Speaker 1: he's the good guy. Absolutely, you know, he's the sheriff

2104
02:06:59,000 --> 02:07:01,520
Speaker 1: in the Western he's come in and he's fixing problems

2105
02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:06,280
Speaker 1: and he's but and then he falls apart. Yeah, and

2106
02:07:06,440 --> 02:07:11,040
Speaker 1: and and his inability, Like it's such a brittle world view. Yeah,

2107
02:07:11,600 --> 02:07:15,360
Speaker 1: he is. He is very Once yeah, once he's exposed

2108
02:07:15,400 --> 02:07:17,640
Speaker 1: to thinking that the world is maybe different, it just

2109
02:07:17,760 --> 02:07:22,640
Speaker 1: totally breaks him. Yeah. His specific arc I think is

2110
02:07:23,440 --> 02:07:26,480
Speaker 1: extremely interesting. Um, but I don't want to spoil it

2111
02:07:26,520 --> 02:07:29,240
Speaker 1: because I think it's it's it's too it's too shocking.

2112
02:07:29,320 --> 02:07:31,120
Speaker 1: Once you get to the final piece of his story,

2113
02:07:31,200 --> 02:07:34,560
Speaker 1: you're like, oh wow, um, I think that was laid

2114
02:07:34,560 --> 02:07:36,280
Speaker 1: out in a really beautiful way. But it's it's it's

2115
02:07:36,480 --> 02:07:38,320
Speaker 1: it's not like shocking away, like oh this this like

2116
02:07:38,400 --> 02:07:40,160
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. It's like, oh no, yeah, I can

2117
02:07:40,200 --> 02:07:42,440
Speaker 1: see that, I can see why he's doing this, but

2118
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:44,840
Speaker 1: it's still it's like you kind of slowly watched this

2119
02:07:44,960 --> 02:07:48,600
Speaker 1: guy get broken down piece by piece. Um, you know,

2120
02:07:48,600 --> 02:07:51,360
Speaker 1: because he starts he's very much like the superhero FBI agent.

2121
02:07:51,400 --> 02:07:54,160
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop these terrorists

2122
02:07:54,280 --> 02:07:56,760
Speaker 1: or whatever, and then he just like yeah, watching him

2123
02:07:56,800 --> 02:07:58,840
Speaker 1: progress throughout the story, and you can see like how

2124
02:07:58,880 --> 02:08:01,720
Speaker 1: pathetic he is. Sometimes there's a there's a great uh,

2125
02:08:02,240 --> 02:08:05,760
Speaker 1: one of the UK spy cops. Um, I forget his

2126
02:08:05,920 --> 02:08:08,120
Speaker 1: name if we're doing this three years ago and I've

2127
02:08:08,120 --> 02:08:11,680
Speaker 1: had all these names in my head, but he um. Uh.

2128
02:08:11,920 --> 02:08:14,760
Speaker 1: So he was assigned and he was he infiltrated this

2129
02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:17,640
Speaker 1: green group somewhere in the UK for a couple of years,

2130
02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:23,520
Speaker 1: had this relationship with this girl. Um was participating and facilitating.

2131
02:08:24,440 --> 02:08:26,480
Speaker 1: The one detail that I loved and try to make

2132
02:08:26,480 --> 02:08:29,680
Speaker 1: sure it was accurate, was all these cops would have

2133
02:08:29,840 --> 02:08:32,480
Speaker 1: a van or they would have like a big truck

2134
02:08:33,000 --> 02:08:35,840
Speaker 1: in the UK because they realized that, like in these

2135
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:39,680
Speaker 1: smaller groups like being the transportation was like your superpower.

2136
02:08:39,840 --> 02:08:41,600
Speaker 1: So like if you are someone was like, oh, I'll

2137
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:43,600
Speaker 1: drive everyone to the thing, I'll get his all that

2138
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:46,760
Speaker 1: because I have this big van. Um. That was the

2139
02:08:46,840 --> 02:08:49,360
Speaker 1: easiest way to just kind of make yourself useful. Um.

2140
02:08:49,720 --> 02:08:52,760
Speaker 1: But this guy is doing all that. At some point, Um,

2141
02:08:53,160 --> 02:08:57,360
Speaker 1: they decided to pull him and they pull him out.

2142
02:08:57,480 --> 02:08:59,920
Speaker 1: He returns to his wife and his normal life back

2143
02:09:00,000 --> 02:09:04,160
Speaker 1: in London. Um. But he can't go back to his

2144
02:09:04,200 --> 02:09:07,000
Speaker 1: normal life, and so he starts and he's done all

2145
02:09:07,080 --> 02:09:10,880
Speaker 1: the stuff of disappearing, but he just starts getting up

2146
02:09:10,960 --> 02:09:13,240
Speaker 1: and driving and maybe he's in the north of England

2147
02:09:13,240 --> 02:09:15,480
Speaker 1: somewhere just just shows back up and he's like, oh,

2148
02:09:15,480 --> 02:09:17,480
Speaker 1: I'm back, guys, and they're like, oh, Ship, what happened.

2149
02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:19,440
Speaker 1: I thought you had to like disappear because people are

2150
02:09:19,440 --> 02:09:21,560
Speaker 1: after you. And he's like, no, it's all right, ah

2151
02:09:22,480 --> 02:09:26,200
Speaker 1: and just goes back to living as an activist. UM.

2152
02:09:26,560 --> 02:09:30,360
Speaker 1: And at some point one of his superiors notices that

2153
02:09:30,600 --> 02:09:36,600
Speaker 1: the mileage on his police paid vehicle is huge and

2154
02:09:36,640 --> 02:09:39,200
Speaker 1: they're like, why is this guy doing so much mileage

2155
02:09:39,200 --> 02:09:41,520
Speaker 1: in is because he's driving all the way back uh

2156
02:09:41,720 --> 02:09:44,680
Speaker 1: and and continuing to live this life and inhabit this

2157
02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:48,760
Speaker 1: character that he's set up. UM. And at some point

2158
02:09:49,280 --> 02:09:52,280
Speaker 1: I think he gets found out and it all goes

2159
02:09:52,320 --> 02:09:55,040
Speaker 1: horribly wrong because he no longer has like the fake

2160
02:09:55,160 --> 02:09:58,080
Speaker 1: idea and stuff that they gave him. But yeah, I

2161
02:09:58,120 --> 02:10:01,720
Speaker 1: mean that and like that stuff is interesting. But then

2162
02:10:01,800 --> 02:10:06,320
Speaker 1: he was always important to never be ugly sympathetic when

2163
02:10:06,360 --> 02:10:12,560
Speaker 1: you see the struggling there. There is certain points where

2164
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:14,880
Speaker 1: you see the FBI agents struggling because of how like

2165
02:10:15,200 --> 02:10:17,920
Speaker 1: smug he is. You're like, yes, he's struggling, and you

2166
02:10:18,040 --> 02:10:20,320
Speaker 1: like get excited when he gets like when he gets

2167
02:10:20,360 --> 02:10:23,200
Speaker 1: like reprimanded or he you know, people are like mad

2168
02:10:23,240 --> 02:10:25,160
Speaker 1: at him for various reasons. And it is very interesting

2169
02:10:25,200 --> 02:10:27,720
Speaker 1: how you like how sympathies get pulled in certain directions,

2170
02:10:27,720 --> 02:10:29,320
Speaker 1: because like by the end of the game, you definitely

2171
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:32,640
Speaker 1: have a much fuller perspective on who this guy is

2172
02:10:32,920 --> 02:10:35,880
Speaker 1: and how it's kind of psyche works because he is

2173
02:10:36,080 --> 02:10:38,600
Speaker 1: really in a lot of ways like kind of pathetic

2174
02:10:38,760 --> 02:10:41,280
Speaker 1: as like a person. Um and he like needs to

2175
02:10:41,440 --> 02:10:44,800
Speaker 1: like hype himself up for himself to like make himself

2176
02:10:44,920 --> 02:10:47,240
Speaker 1: feel like he's special. Then when that gets broken down,

2177
02:10:47,320 --> 02:10:50,440
Speaker 1: he just completely collapses. I guess one of the last

2178
02:10:50,440 --> 02:10:53,560
Speaker 1: things I want to talk about is like throughout all

2179
02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:56,160
Speaker 1: of your games, you have kind of a through line

2180
02:10:56,160 --> 02:10:58,080
Speaker 1: of like fairy tales. You kind of you bring in

2181
02:10:58,240 --> 02:11:02,400
Speaker 1: fairy tale concepts into all of these games. Um And,

2182
02:11:02,600 --> 02:11:04,320
Speaker 1: I like how a lot of your games are very

2183
02:11:04,360 --> 02:11:06,120
Speaker 1: open ended in some ways. I think that her story

2184
02:11:06,200 --> 02:11:08,960
Speaker 1: being much more open ended than than telling Lice in

2185
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:12,240
Speaker 1: some ways. Um And, I really like that you kind

2186
02:11:12,280 --> 02:11:15,080
Speaker 1: of you can't like look up, like what is the

2187
02:11:15,240 --> 02:11:16,760
Speaker 1: ending of this game? It's like no, like you have

2188
02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:18,840
Speaker 1: to piece it together in your own brain like that,

2189
02:11:19,000 --> 02:11:21,360
Speaker 1: and whatever you think the story is, that's what it

2190
02:11:21,520 --> 02:11:24,320
Speaker 1: is for you. There's no like definitive ending, especially like

2191
02:11:24,640 --> 02:11:27,800
Speaker 1: especially for her story. Um and how this combines with

2192
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:30,160
Speaker 1: fairy tales. I think it's really interesting way to like

2193
02:11:30,240 --> 02:11:33,960
Speaker 1: include like mythology into these more modern stories. What's kind

2194
02:11:34,000 --> 02:11:37,080
Speaker 1: of your pot process behind you know, kind of kind

2195
02:11:37,120 --> 02:11:39,720
Speaker 1: of including mythology and fairy tales into these more like

2196
02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:43,160
Speaker 1: modern stories of like you know, people interacting with like government,

2197
02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:45,080
Speaker 1: law enforcement, and then just you know, breaking down their

2198
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:49,200
Speaker 1: own psyches under these high tensed situations. Yeah, I mean

2199
02:11:49,200 --> 02:11:52,360
Speaker 1: I think it. I think it came initially with her

2200
02:11:52,440 --> 02:11:57,120
Speaker 1: story of ye thinking about that the kind of meta

2201
02:11:57,200 --> 02:12:00,760
Speaker 1: storytelling nous of these things, right, the extent to which

2202
02:12:00,760 --> 02:12:03,800
Speaker 1: their experiments and like how we tell stories. Um And

2203
02:12:04,120 --> 02:12:06,920
Speaker 1: but a lot of times, like the myths and the

2204
02:12:07,680 --> 02:12:11,000
Speaker 1: kind of classic stories that people go to those right

2205
02:12:11,200 --> 02:12:16,800
Speaker 1: to try and understand the bigger questions or certainly like um,

2206
02:12:17,600 --> 02:12:22,680
Speaker 1: I guess partly came out of Ah, the start of

2207
02:12:22,760 --> 02:12:25,120
Speaker 1: first story, I had like two youngest kids, and you're

2208
02:12:25,120 --> 02:12:27,360
Speaker 1: so you're reading them all the classic stories, and you

2209
02:12:27,440 --> 02:12:30,200
Speaker 1: realize the extent to which these are just encoding our

2210
02:12:30,320 --> 02:12:34,120
Speaker 1: society's values, right, I had this incredible book that was

2211
02:12:35,240 --> 02:12:38,760
Speaker 1: that my parents got for me, and I tracked down

2212
02:12:38,800 --> 02:12:40,640
Speaker 1: and made sure we still had when I had my kids.

2213
02:12:40,720 --> 02:12:43,400
Speaker 1: That was called It was like folk tales of the

2214
02:12:43,440 --> 02:12:48,240
Speaker 1: people's of the Soviet Republic from like the early eighties,

2215
02:12:48,280 --> 02:12:50,160
Speaker 1: and it was collected like a lot of people. I

2216
02:12:50,200 --> 02:12:53,919
Speaker 1: think it was Ukrainian folk tales, and they were amazing

2217
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:58,080
Speaker 1: because they were so dark. Like the message of each

2218
02:12:58,120 --> 02:13:01,640
Speaker 1: of these stories was trust no, the rich will always win.

2219
02:13:01,920 --> 02:13:05,040
Speaker 1: You will end up dead and unhappy, right, And each

2220
02:13:05,120 --> 02:13:09,440
Speaker 1: story would start with the poor peasant, his brother gets rich,

2221
02:13:09,920 --> 02:13:13,400
Speaker 1: he asks for help. The brother like is horrible. Like

2222
02:13:13,520 --> 02:13:16,560
Speaker 1: this is one story where's this brother who's like, oh,

2223
02:13:16,640 --> 02:13:20,160
Speaker 1: if you want some grain because you're starving, and then

2224
02:13:20,240 --> 02:13:22,320
Speaker 1: gouge out your own eye and I'll give you some grain.

2225
02:13:22,360 --> 02:13:23,880
Speaker 1: And then it comes back from more grain later and

2226
02:13:23,880 --> 02:13:26,040
Speaker 1: he's like, guge out your other eye. Now, chop off

2227
02:13:26,080 --> 02:13:28,920
Speaker 1: your hand. And it's like they're so dark, and I'm like,

2228
02:13:29,160 --> 02:13:33,760
Speaker 1: but this is reflecting what it was like to live

2229
02:13:34,240 --> 02:13:36,640
Speaker 1: in that world and grew up and you're preparing people

2230
02:13:36,920 --> 02:13:40,960
Speaker 1: for the realities. So um, you know. I think that

2231
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:44,360
Speaker 1: to me was really interesting. In and her story tells

2232
02:13:44,400 --> 02:13:46,760
Speaker 1: this story that kind of to some extent grows out

2233
02:13:46,800 --> 02:13:49,640
Speaker 1: of this childhood and then were telling lies. Definitely, it

2234
02:13:49,760 --> 02:13:56,480
Speaker 1: was part of this idea of of yeah, how Logan's

2235
02:13:56,520 --> 02:14:00,880
Speaker 1: character David sees the world and lates to his part

2236
02:14:00,960 --> 02:14:03,400
Speaker 1: in it, and like his utter inability to realize that

2237
02:14:03,480 --> 02:14:05,640
Speaker 1: he's the bad guy in the story, right, and he

2238
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:09,000
Speaker 1: thinks he's the good guy. And and that was like,

2239
02:14:09,120 --> 02:14:12,480
Speaker 1: that was partly the key to breaking his character. And

2240
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:14,440
Speaker 1: it was his daughter. So he has this character who's

2241
02:14:14,760 --> 02:14:18,440
Speaker 1: the six seven year old daughter and that's like, you know,

2242
02:14:18,560 --> 02:14:21,880
Speaker 1: he lets down and does horrible things to a whole

2243
02:14:21,960 --> 02:14:25,400
Speaker 1: bunch of people. Um, but the thing he's not going

2244
02:14:25,440 --> 02:14:27,480
Speaker 1: to be able to get over is knowing that he's

2245
02:14:27,560 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 1: laid his daughter down, right, knowing that at some point

2246
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:33,440
Speaker 1: she will grow up and be an adult woman who

2247
02:14:33,600 --> 02:14:36,880
Speaker 1: if she learns about what her father has done, we'll

2248
02:14:37,160 --> 02:14:40,480
Speaker 1: we'll think less of him and you know, we'll realize

2249
02:14:40,520 --> 02:14:42,600
Speaker 1: that he's the bad guy in the fairy tale whatever.

2250
02:14:42,760 --> 02:14:46,520
Speaker 1: So um, that was like just interesting to me to

2251
02:14:46,840 --> 02:14:49,160
Speaker 1: set him in that moment and have him reading those

2252
02:14:49,200 --> 02:14:52,520
Speaker 1: stories and see see his relationship with his daughter. Um,

2253
02:14:53,200 --> 02:14:57,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think that that Yeah, he end up

2254
02:14:57,920 --> 02:15:00,160
Speaker 1: just relating those things back to what are the these

2255
02:15:00,840 --> 02:15:03,560
Speaker 1: kind of base values, and so much of those folk

2256
02:15:03,560 --> 02:15:05,480
Speaker 1: tales is preparing you for the fact that people are

2257
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:07,480
Speaker 1: going to lie to you and trick you and you

2258
02:15:07,560 --> 02:15:11,280
Speaker 1: know all those kind of aspects. Yeah, a lot of

2259
02:15:11,360 --> 02:15:15,440
Speaker 1: them do deal with, like, you know, failures of trusting

2260
02:15:15,520 --> 02:15:18,720
Speaker 1: people and you know, getting getting let down and being misled.

2261
02:15:18,720 --> 02:15:20,040
Speaker 1: A lot a lot of those do kind of follow

2262
02:15:20,080 --> 02:15:24,400
Speaker 1: on these same same kind of rough templates. UM. Let's see,

2263
02:15:24,520 --> 02:15:26,240
Speaker 1: is there anything you're working on now that you wanna

2264
02:15:27,080 --> 02:15:29,800
Speaker 1: that you wanna plug um, and of course you know

2265
02:15:29,880 --> 02:15:32,680
Speaker 1: people should pick up Telling Lies her story. UM. I

2266
02:15:32,760 --> 02:15:34,720
Speaker 1: have them on Steam. I think they are best suited

2267
02:15:34,760 --> 02:15:37,200
Speaker 1: to be playing on PC, but you can get them

2268
02:15:37,240 --> 02:15:40,360
Speaker 1: on console, we can get them on iOS. But in

2269
02:15:40,480 --> 02:15:45,680
Speaker 1: any anything anything upcoming. Yeah, we're working on currently. This

2270
02:15:46,240 --> 02:15:52,240
Speaker 1: project is called Immortality, UM, which is very ambitious. Uh.

2271
02:15:52,600 --> 02:15:55,040
Speaker 1: It will be out next year. It deals with the

2272
02:15:55,080 --> 02:15:58,920
Speaker 1: story of an actress who only ever made three movies

2273
02:15:59,520 --> 02:16:02,839
Speaker 1: the Ladder Half the twentieth century UM, and then disappeared.

2274
02:16:03,400 --> 02:16:08,000
Speaker 1: And we have recovered footage from these three movies. UM.

2275
02:16:08,800 --> 02:16:13,640
Speaker 1: It's been interesting because we're telling lies like I've always

2276
02:16:13,680 --> 02:16:16,880
Speaker 1: been someone that when I think about the kinds of

2277
02:16:16,960 --> 02:16:18,840
Speaker 1: stories I want to tell, I've always thought that I'm

2278
02:16:18,840 --> 02:16:21,720
Speaker 1: not a capital P politics person, right, I tend to

2279
02:16:21,760 --> 02:16:24,160
Speaker 1: be interested in how people relate to each other and

2280
02:16:24,280 --> 02:16:28,560
Speaker 1: some of the kind of smaller politics. Um And once

2281
02:16:28,640 --> 02:16:30,440
Speaker 1: I got to telling lies, it was like, oh, actually,

2282
02:16:31,520 --> 02:16:35,360
Speaker 1: like there is some capital P politics tied to all this,

2283
02:16:36,120 --> 02:16:38,320
Speaker 1: and so dug into that was like, well, so I

2284
02:16:38,400 --> 02:16:40,440
Speaker 1: want to do right by this, right, So we did

2285
02:16:40,520 --> 02:16:42,440
Speaker 1: involve speaking to lots of people, did involve bringing in

2286
02:16:42,480 --> 02:16:44,880
Speaker 1: all the research and everything. Um So, coming away from

2287
02:16:44,920 --> 02:16:48,560
Speaker 1: telling lies, and as I mean, it was making the

2288
02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:54,520
Speaker 1: game was insane because it was during Trump Trump happens,

2289
02:16:55,240 --> 02:16:57,640
Speaker 1: and I remember going into it being like, we're making

2290
02:16:57,720 --> 02:17:01,840
Speaker 1: this story about the FBI being bad. That's a pretty

2291
02:17:01,879 --> 02:17:05,240
Speaker 1: reasonable endpoint. And then once we hit Trump, you had

2292
02:17:05,280 --> 02:17:07,320
Speaker 1: all that stuff of like the good FBI agents and

2293
02:17:07,440 --> 02:17:10,240
Speaker 1: theory or the FBI might be the people that bring

2294
02:17:10,320 --> 02:17:13,960
Speaker 1: Trump down, and suddenly they it was leaning into the

2295
02:17:14,080 --> 02:17:15,760
Speaker 1: myth of the FBI and I was looked down it

2296
02:17:16,440 --> 02:17:20,360
Speaker 1: and just everything getting worse, and it was like, oh,

2297
02:17:20,480 --> 02:17:23,880
Speaker 1: this is like so intense to be making something and

2298
02:17:23,920 --> 02:17:26,720
Speaker 1: speaking to some of these issues whilst this is all happening,

2299
02:17:27,240 --> 02:17:29,360
Speaker 1: um so finishing that, I was like, well, okay, for

2300
02:17:29,480 --> 02:17:34,640
Speaker 1: the next project, we are definitely going away from talking

2301
02:17:34,680 --> 02:17:38,320
Speaker 1: about real life issues and capital p politics. And then

2302
02:17:38,400 --> 02:17:42,520
Speaker 1: just accidentally it's become because we're talking about an actress

2303
02:17:42,560 --> 02:17:46,800
Speaker 1: in the twentieth century and what it means to make

2304
02:17:46,879 --> 02:17:53,120
Speaker 1: movies and ah, digging into that suddenly becomes about a

2305
02:17:53,200 --> 02:17:58,040
Speaker 1: whole other bunch of systemic issues. So not not managed

2306
02:17:58,080 --> 02:18:00,680
Speaker 1: to avoid the politics again, but it's I think a

2307
02:18:00,800 --> 02:18:03,280
Speaker 1: really really interesting protection. I think I think once you

2308
02:18:03,400 --> 02:18:06,120
Speaker 1: crack that egg open of realizing that politics are kind

2309
02:18:06,160 --> 02:18:09,520
Speaker 1: of intrinsic to every story we tell, it's hard to hand.

2310
02:18:09,560 --> 02:18:11,000
Speaker 1: It's hard to kind of put that back in the

2311
02:18:11,080 --> 02:18:13,560
Speaker 1: box because once you realize you can use politics in

2312
02:18:13,640 --> 02:18:16,680
Speaker 1: a very interesting and complex storytelling way that still doesn't

2313
02:18:16,680 --> 02:18:19,640
Speaker 1: alienate a lot of audiences, it's like, oh, yeah, this

2314
02:18:19,800 --> 02:18:22,480
Speaker 1: is just using another way to interact with the world.

2315
02:18:22,600 --> 02:18:25,119
Speaker 1: I think that was that was one of the things

2316
02:18:25,200 --> 02:18:28,400
Speaker 1: that was slightly disappointing. I guess we're telling lies was

2317
02:18:28,680 --> 02:18:30,120
Speaker 1: like we we're working on it. I'm like, we want

2318
02:18:30,160 --> 02:18:32,000
Speaker 1: to make sure we get these things right, because like

2319
02:18:32,160 --> 02:18:34,920
Speaker 1: these are very important issues, and there are some nuances

2320
02:18:35,240 --> 02:18:38,279
Speaker 1: and so we you know, we don't want to accidentally

2321
02:18:38,320 --> 02:18:40,520
Speaker 1: say something that is incorrect or we don't want to

2322
02:18:40,680 --> 02:18:43,800
Speaker 1: give people the impression that we're you know, yeah, yeah,

2323
02:18:43,879 --> 02:18:47,640
Speaker 1: yeah wrong. Um. So I was expecting some level of

2324
02:18:47,720 --> 02:18:51,240
Speaker 1: scrutiny in terms of discussing the games themes and everything.

2325
02:18:51,480 --> 02:18:54,080
Speaker 1: Um and I guess like the video games world is

2326
02:18:54,080 --> 02:18:57,760
Speaker 1: still not quite ready for that. Like they're quite happy

2327
02:18:57,840 --> 02:18:59,920
Speaker 1: to talk about the game mechanics and how this thing,

2328
02:19:00,040 --> 02:19:02,800
Speaker 1: what works since big picture or emotional responses, but no

2329
02:19:02,920 --> 02:19:06,440
Speaker 1: one's willing to kind of dig deeper. And we had

2330
02:19:06,520 --> 02:19:09,520
Speaker 1: like as the game was coming out and continues to be,

2331
02:19:09,640 --> 02:19:12,480
Speaker 1: you have the bigger name developers being like, there's no

2332
02:19:12,600 --> 02:19:16,960
Speaker 1: politics in our video games. As they're like invading to

2333
02:19:17,040 --> 02:19:20,120
Speaker 1: make a game about you know, you know, being a

2334
02:19:20,720 --> 02:19:23,400
Speaker 1: black Ops unit taking down communist countries. We're not gonna

2335
02:19:23,440 --> 02:19:28,800
Speaker 1: about politics. We're gonna yeah that constantly, constantly just saying

2336
02:19:29,040 --> 02:19:31,520
Speaker 1: it's it's possible, and they'll always say we we both

2337
02:19:31,560 --> 02:19:33,680
Speaker 1: sides it right, Well, we'll tell both sides and let

2338
02:19:33,720 --> 02:19:36,240
Speaker 1: people make the decision. And something that I was very

2339
02:19:36,720 --> 02:19:40,040
Speaker 1: adamant was very im porn to me on telling lies

2340
02:19:40,120 --> 02:19:44,360
Speaker 1: was like, if we're making this game, it is not.

2341
02:19:45,280 --> 02:19:47,720
Speaker 1: The point of the game is not to give you

2342
02:19:48,080 --> 02:19:53,680
Speaker 1: a mush of information and have you decide the moral yeah,

2343
02:19:54,640 --> 02:19:57,480
Speaker 1: good or bad? Something like we are going into this

2344
02:19:58,959 --> 02:20:01,360
Speaker 1: with the assumption that we and the audience or most

2345
02:20:01,400 --> 02:20:05,680
Speaker 1: of the audience believe that people doing these things are wrong,

2346
02:20:06,200 --> 02:20:08,320
Speaker 1: and then we're just And then I'm interested in what

2347
02:20:08,440 --> 02:20:10,520
Speaker 1: does it due to the people, What what is it

2348
02:20:10,680 --> 02:20:12,720
Speaker 1: like to be in this world? What are the consequences

2349
02:20:12,720 --> 02:20:16,000
Speaker 1: of ramifications? How does one exist and continue to live

2350
02:20:16,040 --> 02:20:19,080
Speaker 1: a life after having been involved in these things? So,

2351
02:20:19,200 --> 02:20:23,400
Speaker 1: for me, a political game is it can't be the

2352
02:20:23,400 --> 02:20:27,000
Speaker 1: political story in any media. It can't be going back

2353
02:20:27,040 --> 02:20:29,320
Speaker 1: to first principles pretending we're in debate club, because I

2354
02:20:29,440 --> 02:20:32,520
Speaker 1: just I think that's just that's lies the audience. I

2355
02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:36,200
Speaker 1: think you can say a political story is one which

2356
02:20:36,440 --> 02:20:41,000
Speaker 1: embraces and acknowledges the reality of the various power struggles

2357
02:20:41,080 --> 02:20:43,840
Speaker 1: and inequalities that we have and then has something to

2358
02:20:43,879 --> 02:20:47,119
Speaker 1: say about or has a particular angle it wants to interrogate,

2359
02:20:47,320 --> 02:20:49,879
Speaker 1: or something that wants to shed light on. But it's

2360
02:20:50,000 --> 02:20:53,040
Speaker 1: very childish, and I think we're definitely struggling with this

2361
02:20:53,160 --> 02:20:56,720
Speaker 1: in video games to be like, oh, if it's about politics,

2362
02:20:56,800 --> 02:20:59,200
Speaker 1: then it should be a big question and we should

2363
02:20:59,200 --> 02:21:02,359
Speaker 1: assume no one and it's like, yeah, this is completely

2364
02:21:02,360 --> 02:21:05,040
Speaker 1: bullshit and and it kind of it can lead to

2365
02:21:05,160 --> 02:21:08,160
Speaker 1: some problematic ways, which is why you see a lot

2366
02:21:08,240 --> 02:21:13,160
Speaker 1: of you know, game footage in actual like terrorist propaganda,

2367
02:21:13,320 --> 02:21:14,960
Speaker 1: like with like like it was like not sayings and

2368
02:21:14,959 --> 02:21:17,359
Speaker 1: white supremacist stuff. They use a lot of game footage

2369
02:21:17,720 --> 02:21:20,560
Speaker 1: in their propaganda videos when especially when it's like both

2370
02:21:20,640 --> 02:21:23,600
Speaker 1: sides of these issues. Yeah, it's a I have I

2371
02:21:23,600 --> 02:21:26,600
Speaker 1: have a particular interest in the intersection between like politics, extremism,

2372
02:21:26,680 --> 02:21:29,440
Speaker 1: and gaming because the gaming is very important to our

2373
02:21:29,520 --> 02:21:33,960
Speaker 1: modern kind of extremist ecosystem um, particularly around like four

2374
02:21:34,080 --> 02:21:35,720
Speaker 1: Chan and like you know, like mass shooting is all

2375
02:21:35,760 --> 02:21:38,080
Speaker 1: of these things play into game culture. Not not saying

2376
02:21:38,120 --> 02:21:40,800
Speaker 1: games cause these events to happen, because they don't, but

2377
02:21:40,959 --> 02:21:44,680
Speaker 1: like the way they interact with these people is actually interesting.

2378
02:21:44,720 --> 02:21:46,080
Speaker 1: You know. This is very different from like the way

2379
02:21:46,120 --> 02:21:48,000
Speaker 1: like this Senate is like, oh, games are causing mass

2380
02:21:48,000 --> 02:21:49,760
Speaker 1: shooting because they're not. Yea, I think it's it's it's

2381
02:21:49,800 --> 02:21:53,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a completely separate thing. It's it's there

2382
02:21:53,240 --> 02:21:57,360
Speaker 1: is there is a Fox News kind of hysteria around gaming.

2383
02:21:57,560 --> 02:22:00,760
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like and and really you know,

2384
02:22:01,000 --> 02:22:03,200
Speaker 1: one way I pitched her story when I was telling

2385
02:22:03,240 --> 02:22:04,680
Speaker 1: people why it was interesting us like this is a

2386
02:22:04,760 --> 02:22:09,200
Speaker 1: game about listening. I was like, that's cool because you know,

2387
02:22:09,760 --> 02:22:12,120
Speaker 1: whatever you think about the larger politics of it, or

2388
02:22:12,680 --> 02:22:15,200
Speaker 1: the question of whether video games themselves are inherently harmful

2389
02:22:15,280 --> 02:22:19,080
Speaker 1: or anything, like, the fact that's still the stories we

2390
02:22:19,120 --> 02:22:20,760
Speaker 1: tell are about someone with a gun in their hand

2391
02:22:20,879 --> 02:22:24,600
Speaker 1: or assort in their hand, and the power dynamics and

2392
02:22:24,680 --> 02:22:28,440
Speaker 1: the story the types of stories and the types of protagonists, like,

2393
02:22:28,600 --> 02:22:30,800
Speaker 1: it's screwed up. And I think to the same extent

2394
02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:34,920
Speaker 1: that the fact that, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe is

2395
02:22:34,959 --> 02:22:38,400
Speaker 1: about a bunch of glorified cops going around saying the

2396
02:22:38,480 --> 02:22:44,320
Speaker 1: world like, you know, if you continue to reinforce these things, yeahbously,

2397
02:22:44,760 --> 02:22:46,720
Speaker 1: all of the art we make are saying certain things

2398
02:22:46,800 --> 02:22:49,480
Speaker 1: about the world, and we're reinforcing a certain narrative over

2399
02:22:49,560 --> 02:22:52,120
Speaker 1: and over again and not really thinking critically about it. Yeah,

2400
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:56,080
Speaker 1: that's a problem with making art. I mean, I'm not

2401
02:22:56,200 --> 02:22:57,920
Speaker 1: trying to come off as being anti gamer. I would

2402
02:22:57,920 --> 02:22:59,480
Speaker 1: play a lot of games. I really like gaming. I

2403
02:22:59,600 --> 02:23:03,160
Speaker 1: just think some some companies need to figure out why

2404
02:23:04,040 --> 02:23:08,560
Speaker 1: why certain games are used in mass shooting manifestoes in

2405
02:23:08,600 --> 02:23:11,840
Speaker 1: certain games aren't um particularly around like politics like this

2406
02:23:11,879 --> 02:23:14,600
Speaker 1: is particularly particularly talking about like white supremacy and how

2407
02:23:14,800 --> 02:23:17,760
Speaker 1: certain games kind of playing too certain things. Because even

2408
02:23:17,800 --> 02:23:19,280
Speaker 1: even a game like Wolf and Stein, which I think

2409
02:23:19,280 --> 02:23:22,000
Speaker 1: handles this topic very well, still will you know, get

2410
02:23:22,080 --> 02:23:24,800
Speaker 1: brought up in certain you know, propaganda videos because they

2411
02:23:24,840 --> 02:23:27,200
Speaker 1: do have cool shots of Nazis walking around, right, That's

2412
02:23:27,280 --> 02:23:30,039
Speaker 1: the kind of the problem with some of these things. Um.

2413
02:23:30,600 --> 02:23:32,440
Speaker 1: And you know, if they weren't killing if Nazis weren't

2414
02:23:32,520 --> 02:23:34,000
Speaker 1: killing people as much as wouldn't be as much of

2415
02:23:34,000 --> 02:23:36,520
Speaker 1: a problem. But because that's still a thing, that's still

2416
02:23:36,520 --> 02:23:39,400
Speaker 1: a thing that needs to get talked about. Anyway, this

2417
02:23:39,560 --> 02:23:42,280
Speaker 1: this this took a very sad sad turned towards the

2418
02:23:42,480 --> 02:23:45,920
Speaker 1: end of anyway. Yeah, I will, I will. I will

2419
02:23:46,040 --> 02:23:50,640
Speaker 1: just strongly recommend playing her story playing telling lies. I

2420
02:23:50,800 --> 02:23:57,000
Speaker 1: think these games, you know, interrogate our our predispositions about

2421
02:23:57,240 --> 02:24:01,560
Speaker 1: about kind of police detective were, um, and you just

2422
02:24:01,600 --> 02:24:02,760
Speaker 1: get to learn a lot. You get to learn a

2423
02:24:02,800 --> 02:24:04,920
Speaker 1: lot about like people on characters because like a lot

2424
02:24:04,959 --> 02:24:06,360
Speaker 1: of these games, you know where the setup is like, oh,

2425
02:24:06,480 --> 02:24:09,440
Speaker 1: solve this crime or mystery, but then by the end

2426
02:24:09,520 --> 02:24:11,520
Speaker 1: you're solving a very different mystery and you're kind of

2427
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:13,880
Speaker 1: solving what makes the person tick. And it's very You've

2428
02:24:14,320 --> 02:24:16,120
Speaker 1: I really like the art that you have in your games.

2429
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:19,240
Speaker 1: They've brought me a lot of happiness. So thank you.

2430
02:24:19,320 --> 02:24:21,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for that, and thank you for talking with

2431
02:24:21,600 --> 02:24:26,560
Speaker 1: all of us, um about your work. I'm enjoying it.

2432
02:24:26,640 --> 02:24:28,920
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having me. And uh yeah,

2433
02:24:29,000 --> 02:24:30,960
Speaker 1: like I say, I was, I was hoping to have

2434
02:24:32,400 --> 02:24:36,120
Speaker 1: hundreds more conversations about what Telling Lies was about and

2435
02:24:36,440 --> 02:24:39,200
Speaker 1: about these issues when it came out. But it's uh,

2436
02:24:40,360 --> 02:24:44,119
Speaker 1: you know that, it's I mean, it's hot just general

2437
02:24:44,200 --> 02:24:46,280
Speaker 1: media landscape now, like you put something out there and

2438
02:24:46,400 --> 02:24:49,040
Speaker 1: it comes out and people consume it, Yeah, move on,

2439
02:24:49,240 --> 02:24:53,920
Speaker 1: Like you don't have that. It's bad of like discussion

2440
02:24:54,240 --> 02:24:56,680
Speaker 1: that that. I don't know, it feels like it used

2441
02:24:56,720 --> 02:24:58,440
Speaker 1: to used to be a thing. Yeah, I think it

2442
02:24:58,440 --> 02:25:00,600
Speaker 1: definitely did. It used to be a thing. And definitely

2443
02:25:00,680 --> 02:25:05,160
Speaker 1: your games have had an influence on media in certain ways,

2444
02:25:05,200 --> 02:25:06,960
Speaker 1: and I know there's been like a few other like

2445
02:25:07,080 --> 02:25:09,200
Speaker 1: projects that like Netflix is doing that is kind of

2446
02:25:09,320 --> 02:25:14,880
Speaker 1: taking your concept but not really doing it correctly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

2447
02:25:14,879 --> 02:25:17,240
Speaker 1: there's definitely been a lot. Yeah. People always send me them.

2448
02:25:17,280 --> 02:25:19,920
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, this sounds a lot like story this thing,

2449
02:25:19,959 --> 02:25:24,520
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, but it's it's build non linear. Yeah, exactly.

2450
02:25:26,000 --> 02:25:28,840
Speaker 1: You let people. Yeah, usually it's like watch there are

2451
02:25:28,879 --> 02:25:30,920
Speaker 1: eight episodes. You can watch them in any order, which

2452
02:25:31,040 --> 02:25:33,600
Speaker 1: isn't how her story works. No, Yeah, like, yeah, this

2453
02:25:33,680 --> 02:25:35,320
Speaker 1: is there's a Yeah, there's a whole different thing going on,

2454
02:25:35,640 --> 02:25:39,040
Speaker 1: but no, I mean it's it's interesting times for for

2455
02:25:39,160 --> 02:25:42,720
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. But anyway, play these games on

2456
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:45,960
Speaker 1: Steam and that that doesn't for today. You can follow

2457
02:25:46,000 --> 02:25:48,720
Speaker 1: the show on Twitter and Instagram at Happening here, pod

2458
02:25:48,840 --> 02:25:51,280
Speaker 1: and cool Zone Media. Do you have Do you have

2459
02:25:51,400 --> 02:25:53,280
Speaker 1: social media that you would like to plug or would

2460
02:25:53,280 --> 02:25:58,200
Speaker 1: your people if people are on Twitter, that's where I

2461
02:25:58,280 --> 02:26:02,000
Speaker 1: tend to be. Despite it's despite yeah, I know, I

2462
02:26:02,040 --> 02:26:06,760
Speaker 1: am I am Mr Sambo Twitter M I will say

2463
02:26:06,840 --> 02:26:09,120
Speaker 1: I I actually I actually do like your Twitter account.

2464
02:26:09,320 --> 02:26:11,640
Speaker 1: You do? You do post some fun stuff every once

2465
02:26:11,640 --> 02:26:16,200
Speaker 1: in a while. That's that's kind of a weird contescen

2466
02:26:16,240 --> 02:26:19,120
Speaker 1: think we think to say of anyway. Bye for Puddy

2467
02:26:23,320 --> 02:26:26,440
Speaker 1: Raffie is the voice of some of the happiest songs

2468
02:26:26,520 --> 02:26:32,199
Speaker 1: of our generation. Baby So who is the man behind

2469
02:26:32,320 --> 02:26:37,200
Speaker 1: Baby Bluga? Every human being wants to feel respected. When

2470
02:26:37,280 --> 02:26:41,640
Speaker 1: we start with, all good things can grow from there.

2471
02:26:41,879 --> 02:26:45,520
Speaker 1: I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, New Dad and host of Finding Raffie,

2472
02:26:45,680 --> 02:26:48,879
Speaker 1: a new podcast from my Heart Radio and Fatherly Listen

2473
02:26:48,959 --> 02:26:51,560
Speaker 1: every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app or wherever

2474
02:26:51,680 --> 02:26:55,640
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Robert sex Reese, host

2475
02:26:55,720 --> 02:26:58,760
Speaker 1: of The Doctor Sex Reese Show, and every episode I

2476
02:26:58,959 --> 02:27:02,440
Speaker 1: listened to people about their sex and intimacy issues, and yes,

2477
02:27:03,280 --> 02:27:06,119
Speaker 1: I despise every minute of it. And she she made

2478
02:27:06,200 --> 02:27:09,280
Speaker 1: mistakes too, I mean, did she kill everyone at her wedding?

2479
02:27:09,720 --> 02:27:12,480
Speaker 1: But hell is real. We're all trapped here and there's

2480
02:27:12,560 --> 02:27:15,200
Speaker 1: nothing any of us can do about it. So join me,

2481
02:27:15,400 --> 02:27:18,760
Speaker 1: won't you? Listen to The Doctor Sex Ratio every Tuesday

2482
02:27:18,879 --> 02:27:21,800
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever

2483
02:27:21,920 --> 02:27:26,039
Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Here's to the great American settlers.

2484
02:27:26,800 --> 02:27:30,840
Speaker 1: The millions of you have settled for unsatisfying jobs because

2485
02:27:30,920 --> 02:27:34,000
Speaker 1: they pay the bills, and you just kind of fell

2486
02:27:34,080 --> 02:27:38,520
Speaker 1: into it. And you know it's like totally fine, just

2487
02:27:38,720 --> 02:27:42,320
Speaker 1: another few decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself.

2488
02:27:43,080 --> 02:27:46,160
Speaker 1: Of course, there is something else you could do, if

2489
02:27:46,200 --> 02:27:49,560
Speaker 1: you've got something to say. You could, I don't know,

2490
02:27:49,920 --> 02:27:54,039
Speaker 1: start up podcast with spreaker from my Heart and unleash

2491
02:27:54,120 --> 02:27:58,200
Speaker 1: your creative freedom and spend all day researching and talking

2492
02:27:58,240 --> 02:28:02,080
Speaker 1: about stuff you love and maybe even earn enough money

2493
02:28:02,200 --> 02:28:05,120
Speaker 1: to one day to own your irritating boss. As you

2494
02:28:05,320 --> 02:28:10,480
Speaker 1: quit and walk off into the sunset. Hey, I'm no settler,

2495
02:28:11,160 --> 02:28:17,320
Speaker 1: I'm an explorer speaker dot com. That's spr e a

2496
02:28:17,640 --> 02:28:28,360
Speaker 1: k E R hustle on over today. That's gonna that's

2497
02:28:28,400 --> 02:28:31,200
Speaker 1: gonna be way too jarring to open an episode where

2498
02:28:31,520 --> 02:28:34,240
Speaker 1: well we already did it, so just keep moving. Yeah

2499
02:28:34,360 --> 02:28:37,200
Speaker 1: uh huh. Um, the episode is actually going to start

2500
02:28:37,280 --> 02:28:40,200
Speaker 1: with Garrison saying that's way too jarring to open an

2501
02:28:40,240 --> 02:28:42,680
Speaker 1: episode with, and the listeners won't know that is much.

2502
02:28:43,000 --> 02:28:47,400
Speaker 1: That is a much easier opening. Um, alright, so we're

2503
02:28:47,440 --> 02:28:49,600
Speaker 1: doing I'm gonna be I'm gonna be reading a thing

2504
02:28:49,640 --> 02:28:51,640
Speaker 1: today and then we're gonna talk about the thing that

2505
02:28:51,720 --> 02:28:55,000
Speaker 1: we're reading. Um and and and who and who are you?

2506
02:28:55,160 --> 02:28:58,400
Speaker 1: And who is here? Oh yeah, this is a happen here.

2507
02:28:58,760 --> 02:29:01,240
Speaker 1: This is it could happen here. I'm I'm Garrison. I

2508
02:29:01,320 --> 02:29:07,160
Speaker 1: am our resident Canadian. Yeah, that's Anderson. That's Anderson the

2509
02:29:07,200 --> 02:29:08,760
Speaker 1: dog in here. We have we had to hire a

2510
02:29:08,840 --> 02:29:16,680
Speaker 1: Canadian for a diversity quota. You do not anyway. We

2511
02:29:16,800 --> 02:29:20,760
Speaker 1: have Chris here, Robert Evans as usual, um, and Sophie.

2512
02:29:21,440 --> 02:29:24,360
Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk about We're gonna talk a little

2513
02:29:24,360 --> 02:29:29,119
Speaker 1: bit about about Canada today. So in the like descripted

2514
02:29:29,200 --> 02:29:31,959
Speaker 1: what if scenarios first positive in the original it could

2515
02:29:31,959 --> 02:29:34,280
Speaker 1: happen here. Um. It detailed what it might be like

2516
02:29:34,440 --> 02:29:37,880
Speaker 1: to live in the United States during a modern civil conflict.

2517
02:29:38,240 --> 02:29:40,000
Speaker 1: And like one of the stories that we kind of

2518
02:29:40,080 --> 02:29:42,760
Speaker 1: tell ourselves as a culture is about, you know, crossing

2519
02:29:42,840 --> 02:29:45,400
Speaker 1: up into the safe haven of Canada whatever stuff breaks

2520
02:29:45,440 --> 02:29:49,200
Speaker 1: out in the States. Um, whether that be like an

2521
02:29:49,280 --> 02:29:52,040
Speaker 1: escape from just the hell that's us politics, um, or

2522
02:29:52,200 --> 02:29:54,880
Speaker 1: you know, going up into the cold northern terrain better

2523
02:29:54,879 --> 02:29:57,600
Speaker 1: equipped to deal with climate change. Canada is kind of

2524
02:29:57,720 --> 02:30:00,160
Speaker 1: just viewed as a bast gene of like little of

2525
02:30:00,320 --> 02:30:03,320
Speaker 1: liberal democracy in North America. UM. You know, I've I've

2526
02:30:03,400 --> 02:30:05,800
Speaker 1: made jokes in the past about using my Canadian passport

2527
02:30:05,840 --> 02:30:08,320
Speaker 1: to escape up into the forest of Alberta when things

2528
02:30:08,400 --> 02:30:10,840
Speaker 1: get too dicey here in the States. But this like

2529
02:30:11,040 --> 02:30:15,040
Speaker 1: weird utopian view of Canada is not just wrong about

2530
02:30:15,120 --> 02:30:19,600
Speaker 1: Canada's current political state, but also assumes that a Canada

2531
02:30:19,720 --> 02:30:21,840
Speaker 1: is like immune to the political shifts that the States

2532
02:30:21,879 --> 02:30:24,879
Speaker 1: have gone through the past few years, which is it's

2533
02:30:25,160 --> 02:30:31,160
Speaker 1: it's very obviously not um so like Canada internationally is,

2534
02:30:31,280 --> 02:30:33,160
Speaker 1: and specifically in the States, it's it's used as like,

2535
02:30:33,240 --> 02:30:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, Canada's it's used it's like America's little brother,

2536
02:30:36,520 --> 02:30:39,760
Speaker 1: but it's you know, it's much more you know, democratic,

2537
02:30:39,840 --> 02:30:41,720
Speaker 1: it's much more liberal. It's like it's like this kind

2538
02:30:41,760 --> 02:30:45,520
Speaker 1: of ideal scenario for like what the States could be.

2539
02:30:46,160 --> 02:30:48,840
Speaker 1: And like Canadians have a weird view of the States

2540
02:30:48,879 --> 02:30:52,440
Speaker 1: as well. Like Canadians, they're both like the like they're

2541
02:30:52,520 --> 02:30:54,920
Speaker 1: kind of obsessed. Like a lot of Canadians think no

2542
02:30:55,040 --> 02:30:57,680
Speaker 1: more about US politics than that they know about Canadian politics.

2543
02:30:58,200 --> 02:31:02,000
Speaker 1: Um but almost in like a way that we watch sports.

2544
02:31:02,200 --> 02:31:04,040
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's like this thing that we like

2545
02:31:04,560 --> 02:31:06,800
Speaker 1: watch as entertainment, like like some kind of like sick

2546
02:31:06,879 --> 02:31:09,320
Speaker 1: reality show. That's how I think a lot of Canadians

2547
02:31:09,360 --> 02:31:13,840
Speaker 1: really view US politics, um, because it's just so wacky

2548
02:31:14,000 --> 02:31:17,640
Speaker 1: compared to the kind of more like civil parliamentary system

2549
02:31:17,680 --> 02:31:20,200
Speaker 1: that we have in Canada. US politics just looks very,

2550
02:31:20,400 --> 02:31:23,640
Speaker 1: very bizarre, and there's always this notion it's like, no

2551
02:31:23,760 --> 02:31:26,200
Speaker 1: matter how bad things can get in Canada, at least

2552
02:31:26,200 --> 02:31:28,320
Speaker 1: we're not the States. At least at least we're not

2553
02:31:28,600 --> 02:31:30,720
Speaker 1: at least we're not the US. And that is kind

2554
02:31:30,720 --> 02:31:32,920
Speaker 1: of a lot of a lot of how a lot

2555
02:31:32,959 --> 02:31:36,560
Speaker 1: of stuff can get really get can just like surviving

2556
02:31:36,640 --> 02:31:41,680
Speaker 1: Canada longer, because it's just they view it like, at least,

2557
02:31:42,080 --> 02:31:44,120
Speaker 1: at least we're not as bad as the other people.

2558
02:31:45,320 --> 02:31:46,800
Speaker 1: So that's how, you know, it gives them kind of

2559
02:31:46,879 --> 02:31:49,760
Speaker 1: some kind of sense of security. But in terms of

2560
02:31:49,840 --> 02:31:51,360
Speaker 1: like in terms of Canada as a country, you know,

2561
02:31:51,440 --> 02:31:53,880
Speaker 1: we we we've said that Canada as a country is

2562
02:31:53,920 --> 02:31:56,720
Speaker 1: basically just you know, a few mining companies in a

2563
02:31:56,760 --> 02:31:59,360
Speaker 1: trench coat and the trench coat is healthcare, um. And

2564
02:31:59,440 --> 02:32:02,200
Speaker 1: that's that's really all they are is as as as

2565
02:32:02,240 --> 02:32:05,560
Speaker 1: a country. UM. But today we're gonna be talking about

2566
02:32:06,160 --> 02:32:11,560
Speaker 1: kind of Canada's slide towards farther right wing politics. Um.

2567
02:32:11,959 --> 02:32:15,080
Speaker 1: Both you know, historically and then more recently, because a

2568
02:32:15,160 --> 02:32:17,200
Speaker 1: lot of what we've seen in the States has happened

2569
02:32:17,240 --> 02:32:20,320
Speaker 1: kind of in its own weird Canadian way around the

2570
02:32:20,440 --> 02:32:23,720
Speaker 1: same time. UM. But before we really before we really

2571
02:32:23,720 --> 02:32:26,119
Speaker 1: get started, I think to be remiss not to mention

2572
02:32:26,240 --> 02:32:28,960
Speaker 1: how the Canadian government has historically treated Indigenous and First

2573
02:32:29,040 --> 02:32:32,879
Speaker 1: Nations people UM living on that land. Of course, it's

2574
02:32:32,920 --> 02:32:34,720
Speaker 1: like not only just hundreds of years ago, but a

2575
02:32:34,800 --> 02:32:37,120
Speaker 1: lot more recently as well. Just in the past year,

2576
02:32:37,200 --> 02:32:40,000
Speaker 1: there have been thousands and thousands of like hidden graves

2577
02:32:40,080 --> 02:32:42,800
Speaker 1: found across the provinces at the sites of these residential

2578
02:32:42,840 --> 02:32:45,320
Speaker 1: schools UM. And the process of looking for these on

2579
02:32:45,440 --> 02:32:49,400
Speaker 1: Martin graves has like just just started. UM. The Canadian

2580
02:32:49,440 --> 02:32:52,920
Speaker 1: Historical Association published a letter this past Canada Day Canada

2581
02:32:53,000 --> 02:32:56,400
Speaker 1: Day is like Independence Day but for Canada, UM, saying

2582
02:32:56,480 --> 02:32:59,400
Speaker 1: that it was abundantly clear that Canada is guilty of

2583
02:32:59,760 --> 02:33:02,280
Speaker 1: is guilty of genocide. UM. I know there's there's a

2584
02:33:02,320 --> 02:33:05,200
Speaker 1: few episodes behind the Bastards, UM, and I think even

2585
02:33:05,240 --> 02:33:08,320
Speaker 1: worse deer that that talk about residential schools UM and

2586
02:33:08,400 --> 02:33:11,960
Speaker 1: and the genocide of indigenousop Canada. So you can you

2587
02:33:12,000 --> 02:33:14,160
Speaker 1: can check those out and I wrote this episode to

2588
02:33:14,240 --> 02:33:17,879
Speaker 1: be more focused on Canada's political shifts the past five years.

2589
02:33:18,000 --> 02:33:20,320
Speaker 1: But since we're talking to be talking about Canadian fascism,

2590
02:33:20,560 --> 02:33:22,640
Speaker 1: I thought it would be irresponsible to not mention this

2591
02:33:22,879 --> 02:33:27,240
Speaker 1: upfront as like a thing responsible and very responsible. So

2592
02:33:27,680 --> 02:33:30,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to take us through aspects of Canadians

2593
02:33:30,920 --> 02:33:34,400
Speaker 1: of Canada's politics chronologically. Um, you guys can button and

2594
02:33:34,520 --> 02:33:37,760
Speaker 1: kind of ask questions and clarifications about stuff. Um, But

2595
02:33:37,959 --> 02:33:39,760
Speaker 1: the first thing that we're gonna start with is actually

2596
02:33:39,800 --> 02:33:41,640
Speaker 1: going to be on the First Nations the side of things,

2597
02:33:41,760 --> 02:33:44,000
Speaker 1: and that that's kind of how that that's what mostly

2598
02:33:44,040 --> 02:33:46,920
Speaker 1: Indigenous people are called in Canada's First Nations. Um, even

2599
02:33:46,959 --> 02:33:49,240
Speaker 1: you know the Indigenous people up in Canada, most amuse

2600
02:33:49,320 --> 02:33:50,840
Speaker 1: that term. So that's the term I'll be using for

2601
02:33:50,959 --> 02:33:52,520
Speaker 1: some some of this stuff, just because that's the one

2602
02:33:52,560 --> 02:33:59,200
Speaker 1: that's used up there. Um. So the the residential School's

2603
02:33:59,200 --> 02:34:01,680
Speaker 1: program is where gonna briefly mentioned a few things about it,

2604
02:34:01,720 --> 02:34:03,560
Speaker 1: just because of how it kind of relates to some

2605
02:34:03,680 --> 02:34:05,040
Speaker 1: of the stuff that we're gonna be talking with for

2606
02:34:05,080 --> 02:34:08,840
Speaker 1: the rest of the episode. Um yeah, I'm gonna I'm

2607
02:34:08,840 --> 02:34:12,200
Speaker 1: gonna read someone I'm gonna read some words by by

2608
02:34:12,480 --> 02:34:15,640
Speaker 1: Duncan Campbell Scott. Who was the department, Who was who

2609
02:34:15,680 --> 02:34:18,880
Speaker 1: was the Deputy Superintendent of Indian Affairs. This was like

2610
02:34:19,160 --> 02:34:22,400
Speaker 1: a rank in the Canadian government. UM. He served as

2611
02:34:22,480 --> 02:34:26,720
Speaker 1: the Deputy Superintendent from nineteen thirteen to nineteen thirty two. UM.

2612
02:34:26,800 --> 02:34:29,279
Speaker 1: And he's arguably like the main architect of the residential

2613
02:34:29,320 --> 02:34:32,240
Speaker 1: schools program. UM he was. He was also good friends

2614
02:34:33,000 --> 02:34:37,000
Speaker 1: with the first Prime Minister of Canada, John John John McDonald.

2615
02:34:37,560 --> 02:34:43,359
Speaker 1: So here's here's here's how this guy the the architect

2616
02:34:43,440 --> 02:34:45,520
Speaker 1: of this program. This is this is how he kind

2617
02:34:45,560 --> 02:34:48,520
Speaker 1: of talked talked about this in letters to both his

2618
02:34:48,640 --> 02:34:52,480
Speaker 1: like his underlings, and just like openly quote. It is

2619
02:34:52,560 --> 02:34:55,760
Speaker 1: readily acknowledged that Indian children lose their natural resistance to

2620
02:34:55,800 --> 02:34:59,000
Speaker 1: illness by habituating so close in the residential schools, and

2621
02:34:59,040 --> 02:35:01,560
Speaker 1: that they died a much higher rate than in their villages.

2622
02:35:01,760 --> 02:35:03,920
Speaker 1: But this does not justify a change in the policy

2623
02:35:03,920 --> 02:35:06,560
Speaker 1: of this department, which is geared towards a final solution

2624
02:35:06,760 --> 02:35:09,680
Speaker 1: for our Indian problem. It is quite within the market

2625
02:35:09,720 --> 02:35:11,680
Speaker 1: to say that fifty of children who passed through these

2626
02:35:11,720 --> 02:35:14,120
Speaker 1: schools did not live to benefit from the education and

2627
02:35:14,200 --> 02:35:18,320
Speaker 1: which they had received. So that's that's just what he

2628
02:35:18,400 --> 02:35:21,440
Speaker 1: calls it. He says, the final solution to the Indian problem.

2629
02:35:21,480 --> 02:35:25,200
Speaker 1: It's very very very clear. What what like that. That's

2630
02:35:25,240 --> 02:35:27,480
Speaker 1: just the language he uses. And this was like before

2631
02:35:27,560 --> 02:35:32,040
Speaker 1: Hitler though, like this was this was attention to these Yeah,

2632
02:35:32,200 --> 02:35:33,720
Speaker 1: yeah like this this is just like this is the

2633
02:35:33,800 --> 02:35:36,040
Speaker 1: mindset of all of these same people. This is all

2634
02:35:36,120 --> 02:35:40,199
Speaker 1: of all of the same thing. Um. Another another another

2635
02:35:40,320 --> 02:35:42,840
Speaker 1: quote from this dude is I want to get rid

2636
02:35:42,879 --> 02:35:44,480
Speaker 1: of the Indian problem. I do not think of it

2637
02:35:44,520 --> 02:35:46,240
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact that the country ought to

2638
02:35:46,320 --> 02:35:48,880
Speaker 1: continually protect a class of people who are able to

2639
02:35:49,000 --> 02:35:51,720
Speaker 1: stand alone. That's my whole point. Our objective is to

2640
02:35:51,760 --> 02:35:54,240
Speaker 1: continue until there's not a single Indian in Canada that

2641
02:35:54,320 --> 02:35:57,240
Speaker 1: has not been absorbed into the into the body politic,

2642
02:35:57,400 --> 02:36:00,920
Speaker 1: and there's no Indian question and no Indie Department. That

2643
02:36:01,080 --> 02:36:03,720
Speaker 1: is the whole objective of this bill. The bill referring

2644
02:36:03,720 --> 02:36:08,160
Speaker 1: to the residential schools program. So that's that's how he

2645
02:36:08,400 --> 02:36:10,680
Speaker 1: talks about these things. Um. There there's other letters that

2646
02:36:10,840 --> 02:36:14,560
Speaker 1: he's sent that's like telling his um, his like agents,

2647
02:36:14,600 --> 02:36:18,000
Speaker 1: because he had like agents stationed at at Canadian at

2648
02:36:18,040 --> 02:36:22,000
Speaker 1: Canadian reserves to like not let Indians do dancing because

2649
02:36:22,040 --> 02:36:24,480
Speaker 1: both that's you know, that's doing their cultural practice, but

2650
02:36:24,520 --> 02:36:26,480
Speaker 1: also it will distract them from learning how to do

2651
02:36:26,680 --> 02:36:29,440
Speaker 1: Western farming. Um. Like they weren't allowed to go to

2652
02:36:29,640 --> 02:36:33,959
Speaker 1: fairs or exhibitions or anything that you like that anything

2653
02:36:34,040 --> 02:36:36,520
Speaker 1: that has like that is reminiscent of like any kind

2654
02:36:36,520 --> 02:36:40,400
Speaker 1: of cultural tradition that is not white in European. Um.

2655
02:36:41,320 --> 02:36:44,000
Speaker 1: So he he is, he is a pretty pretty pretty

2656
02:36:44,040 --> 02:36:46,480
Speaker 1: bad dude. He probably deserves his own his own thing

2657
02:36:46,680 --> 02:36:49,200
Speaker 1: that this this specific guy. But you can you can

2658
02:36:49,280 --> 02:36:51,360
Speaker 1: kind of see like these like fascist ideas and rhetoric

2659
02:36:51,560 --> 02:36:53,879
Speaker 1: are not foreign to Canada. Um. And you know it's

2660
02:36:53,920 --> 02:36:58,080
Speaker 1: been there since its infancy. Now, Canadian politics is very

2661
02:36:58,120 --> 02:37:00,760
Speaker 1: different in a lot of ways compared to American politic ticks. Uh.

2662
02:37:00,920 --> 02:37:03,600
Speaker 1: Canada tries to kind of follow the European model, whereas

2663
02:37:03,600 --> 02:37:05,960
Speaker 1: America is very much like the rebel state that tries

2664
02:37:06,040 --> 02:37:08,440
Speaker 1: to play on its play by its own rules. Um.

2665
02:37:08,720 --> 02:37:11,800
Speaker 1: Kind of The first main difference is that Canada isn't

2666
02:37:11,840 --> 02:37:15,040
Speaker 1: a two party system. Um, it's it's more like a

2667
02:37:15,120 --> 02:37:17,280
Speaker 1: two party plus the system. Because yeah, there still is

2668
02:37:17,360 --> 02:37:19,360
Speaker 1: the main liberals and the main Conservatives, but there are

2669
02:37:19,480 --> 02:37:22,080
Speaker 1: there are other parties that actually can get elected. Um.

2670
02:37:22,560 --> 02:37:24,680
Speaker 1: And it's it's not it's not like a strictly two

2671
02:37:24,680 --> 02:37:26,640
Speaker 1: party system the same way the States is. So that

2672
02:37:26,760 --> 02:37:30,440
Speaker 1: makes things more interesting. Um. And another thing that's really

2673
02:37:30,520 --> 02:37:33,320
Speaker 1: interesting about like a cultural politics. That's that's different from

2674
02:37:33,320 --> 02:37:35,840
Speaker 1: the States, you know. Besides, you know, Canada obviously has

2675
02:37:35,879 --> 02:37:38,480
Speaker 1: like a parliament and the prime minister. That's different. But

2676
02:37:39,160 --> 02:37:46,080
Speaker 1: the Canada view and Canadians view nationalism and patriotism very differently, uh,

2677
02:37:46,240 --> 02:37:51,880
Speaker 1: compared to to like United States, Um. Citizens patriotism and

2678
02:37:51,959 --> 02:37:54,880
Speaker 1: in some ways nationalism have always been kind of more

2679
02:37:54,920 --> 02:37:58,320
Speaker 1: of a liberal progressive thing um, you know, in opposition

2680
02:37:58,400 --> 02:38:01,280
Speaker 1: to the States where it is not really seen as

2681
02:38:01,280 --> 02:38:04,560
Speaker 1: a liberal progressive thing. Um. It's like, even under conservative leadership,

2682
02:38:05,400 --> 02:38:07,440
Speaker 1: Canada kind of pride itself as as sort of like

2683
02:38:07,600 --> 02:38:10,080
Speaker 1: liberal utopia. And that's where a lot of the patriotism

2684
02:38:10,160 --> 02:38:12,640
Speaker 1: and celebration in Canada comes from. Among its you know,

2685
02:38:12,720 --> 02:38:15,880
Speaker 1: mostly liberal and more socially progressive citizens. They like celebrate

2686
02:38:15,959 --> 02:38:19,000
Speaker 1: Canada as like this great progressive nation, and that's where

2687
02:38:19,000 --> 02:38:21,640
Speaker 1: a lot of the patriotism comes from. Is like, oh look,

2688
02:38:21,720 --> 02:38:25,240
Speaker 1: look how progressive we are. Um. Then the nationalism part

2689
02:38:25,280 --> 02:38:27,600
Speaker 1: can be a bit more tricky, uh, because you first

2690
02:38:27,600 --> 02:38:31,160
Speaker 1: need to understand like the English and French divide which

2691
02:38:31,360 --> 02:38:34,440
Speaker 1: within the country, which I barely understand that to be honest,

2692
02:38:34,480 --> 02:38:36,000
Speaker 1: I was I was, I was. I was born in

2693
02:38:36,040 --> 02:38:38,360
Speaker 1: the Prairies. That was you know, much more of like

2694
02:38:38,440 --> 02:38:42,600
Speaker 1: the Protestant English Ilish English settlement. You know, I'm not

2695
02:38:42,640 --> 02:38:45,160
Speaker 1: from Quebec, but we'll be talking about Quebec a lot

2696
02:38:45,200 --> 02:38:47,480
Speaker 1: here because it is very important to how nationalism works

2697
02:38:47,520 --> 02:38:50,520
Speaker 1: in Canada. So the divide between the French and the

2698
02:38:50,600 --> 02:38:55,439
Speaker 1: English make elections really interesting because the English majority politicians

2699
02:38:55,760 --> 02:38:58,680
Speaker 1: usually need to court some of the French Canadian population

2700
02:38:58,840 --> 02:39:01,640
Speaker 1: and and people in Quebec in order to get enough

2701
02:39:01,680 --> 02:39:05,640
Speaker 1: parliamentary seats to have a majority government. Because Canada works

2702
02:39:05,760 --> 02:39:09,320
Speaker 1: on having a majority within the parliament. Um, you can

2703
02:39:09,400 --> 02:39:11,480
Speaker 1: have a minority in in in the Parliament like the

2704
02:39:11,560 --> 02:39:14,440
Speaker 1: Liberals currently have. So even if you know, someone doesn't

2705
02:39:14,480 --> 02:39:16,240
Speaker 1: win a plurality of votes, that can still be in

2706
02:39:16,280 --> 02:39:18,720
Speaker 1: control of the government in an in a minority or

2707
02:39:18,840 --> 02:39:20,880
Speaker 1: usually a majority capacity. We'll get into this kind of

2708
02:39:20,879 --> 02:39:24,600
Speaker 1: stuff later, um. But even though they need to get

2709
02:39:24,720 --> 02:39:27,600
Speaker 1: seats from Quebec to have you know, a decent control

2710
02:39:27,600 --> 02:39:30,160
Speaker 1: of Parliament. Quebec kind of likes to act like its

2711
02:39:30,200 --> 02:39:33,240
Speaker 1: own special country. Um. They even have their own like

2712
02:39:33,360 --> 02:39:37,160
Speaker 1: federal political party, uh, the block Kebuqua and so like that.

2713
02:39:37,240 --> 02:39:39,800
Speaker 1: That that's a that's a federal party that operates in

2714
02:39:40,840 --> 02:39:44,200
Speaker 1: forwarding the interests of Quebec. Sometimes it functions as like

2715
02:39:44,240 --> 02:39:48,600
Speaker 1: a separatist party, but not really anymore. Um. So although

2716
02:39:49,080 --> 02:39:53,959
Speaker 1: the Blockbuqua is a lot is a lot more secular

2717
02:39:54,040 --> 02:39:57,480
Speaker 1: and progressive than basically any any other major party outside

2718
02:39:57,480 --> 02:40:00,520
Speaker 1: of the n d P UM. But despite them being

2719
02:40:00,720 --> 02:40:03,480
Speaker 1: much more like socially progressive, that also like one of

2720
02:40:03,560 --> 02:40:08,000
Speaker 1: the biggest nationalist parties UM in Canada. And you know,

2721
02:40:08,160 --> 02:40:11,520
Speaker 1: the far right parties in Canada have had always had

2722
02:40:11,600 --> 02:40:15,120
Speaker 1: their you know brand of ethno nationalism, but that was

2723
02:40:15,200 --> 02:40:17,520
Speaker 1: that's that's been much less pronounced than the kind of

2724
02:40:17,640 --> 02:40:20,880
Speaker 1: like keep non French Canadians out of Quebec and keep

2725
02:40:20,920 --> 02:40:23,960
Speaker 1: Americans out of Canada type of nationalism that's common with

2726
02:40:24,120 --> 02:40:27,959
Speaker 1: like liberals UM and specifically you know progressives inside Quebec,

2727
02:40:28,360 --> 02:40:31,320
Speaker 1: which you can't blame them for wanting to keep Americans. No, Yeah,

2728
02:40:31,440 --> 02:40:35,039
Speaker 1: like good sense. If I could keep Americans out of America,

2729
02:40:35,280 --> 02:40:38,160
Speaker 1: I would do it. Yeah. But so that kind of sentiment,

2730
02:40:38,400 --> 02:40:40,880
Speaker 1: you can see how that connect like you know, be

2731
02:40:41,120 --> 02:40:45,000
Speaker 1: used to foster some not good things though that that

2732
02:40:45,200 --> 02:40:48,040
Speaker 1: that that specific type of thinking of of like keeping nationals,

2733
02:40:48,280 --> 02:40:51,400
Speaker 1: like you know, keeping four nationals out of your state. Yeah,

2734
02:40:51,600 --> 02:40:53,800
Speaker 1: it's good to not have Americans there, but you know

2735
02:40:54,000 --> 02:40:58,480
Speaker 1: that's going to get extended towards other people's unfortunate Yeah,

2736
02:40:58,600 --> 02:41:01,200
Speaker 1: and and like so even though the nationalism can be

2737
02:41:01,240 --> 02:41:03,400
Speaker 1: a lot more progressive, that's not to say as no

2738
02:41:03,520 --> 02:41:07,000
Speaker 1: nationalism does not come up within these sex um, which

2739
02:41:07,120 --> 02:41:09,600
Speaker 1: is going to bring us to uh when when a

2740
02:41:09,680 --> 02:41:13,879
Speaker 1: briefly talk about something from the thirties called the called

2741
02:41:13,920 --> 02:41:18,400
Speaker 1: the National Unity Party of the National Unity Party of Canada. Um,

2742
02:41:18,520 --> 02:41:21,160
Speaker 1: the National Union Party National Unity Party, that is a

2743
02:41:21,400 --> 02:41:24,560
Speaker 1: weird thing to say. Um was was originally called the

2744
02:41:24,760 --> 02:41:31,720
Speaker 1: Canadian National Socialist Unity Party. Oh wait, now that remindmate

2745
02:41:32,640 --> 02:41:36,560
Speaker 1: national socialism. That seems like a term with a little

2746
02:41:36,560 --> 02:41:41,400
Speaker 1: bit of baggage. Remember correctly, yep, it sort of does. Um.

2747
02:41:41,720 --> 02:41:45,480
Speaker 1: So that this was a party formed in nineteen thirty

2748
02:41:45,520 --> 02:41:49,879
Speaker 1: four by a little Nazi shot head named Adrian R. Khan. Um.

2749
02:41:50,080 --> 02:41:51,760
Speaker 1: Now that is if you cannot tell that it's me

2750
02:41:51,840 --> 02:41:53,959
Speaker 1: trying to say a French name. So he is from Quebec.

2751
02:41:54,040 --> 02:41:58,400
Speaker 1: This is a lot of Canadian Nazi stuff originates inside

2752
02:41:58,480 --> 02:42:02,800
Speaker 1: Quebec because it already has such nationalist tendencies. Um. So

2753
02:42:03,400 --> 02:42:06,440
Speaker 1: our cons introduction into nationalism started around the turn of

2754
02:42:06,480 --> 02:42:10,280
Speaker 1: the century, um amid fears in Quebec that Chinese immigration

2755
02:42:10,560 --> 02:42:14,120
Speaker 1: would threaten the white French Canadian working class. Um, this

2756
02:42:14,480 --> 02:42:18,080
Speaker 1: is still a big thing in Canada. Uh. Racism and

2757
02:42:18,160 --> 02:42:20,720
Speaker 1: nationalism against the Chinese is still a big thing. We

2758
02:42:20,760 --> 02:42:22,440
Speaker 1: will talk about this at the very end of this

2759
02:42:22,640 --> 02:42:25,160
Speaker 1: of this of of these episodes, because it's that's still

2760
02:42:25,160 --> 02:42:29,200
Speaker 1: a thing the Conservative Party talks about a lot. Um So. Yeah,

2761
02:42:29,560 --> 02:42:32,960
Speaker 1: his his internationalism was because of fears of Chinese immigration

2762
02:42:33,000 --> 02:42:36,800
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds. Um, the the anti his

2763
02:42:36,959 --> 02:42:39,640
Speaker 1: so his anti immigrants upbringing, plus the fact that he

2764
02:42:39,680 --> 02:42:42,200
Speaker 1: attended the Catholic school. Um that there there there was

2765
02:42:42,280 --> 02:42:44,120
Speaker 1: no there was no public schools in Quebec until the

2766
02:42:44,200 --> 02:42:48,160
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. All of the schools were either Catholic or Protestant.

2767
02:42:48,480 --> 02:42:51,680
Speaker 1: Now this is also part of the cultural divide inside Canada,

2768
02:42:51,720 --> 02:42:54,440
Speaker 1: where usually the English speakers are Protestant and they're usually

2769
02:42:54,520 --> 02:42:57,960
Speaker 1: further west and the and the Catholics are usually you know,

2770
02:42:58,000 --> 02:43:00,560
Speaker 1: French Canadians. There's a lot of that inside Quebec. Um.

2771
02:43:01,080 --> 02:43:04,400
Speaker 1: So he went to a Catholic school of which were

2772
02:43:04,440 --> 02:43:07,920
Speaker 1: at the time very anti Jewish because what was happening

2773
02:43:08,000 --> 02:43:09,600
Speaker 1: is that the Jewish people in Quebec wanted to make

2774
02:43:09,640 --> 02:43:12,680
Speaker 1: their own Jewish schools, and the Catholics, like in charge,

2775
02:43:12,720 --> 02:43:14,760
Speaker 1: didn't want that because then that'd be less people were

2776
02:43:14,800 --> 02:43:17,280
Speaker 1: inside Catholic schools, and they weren't you know, learning Catholicism.

2777
02:43:17,760 --> 02:43:19,520
Speaker 1: So there's a lot, a lot of stuff going on

2778
02:43:19,680 --> 02:43:22,720
Speaker 1: here that is kind of extreme contributing. So he was

2779
02:43:22,879 --> 02:43:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, already anti immigrant because of the Chinese, and

2780
02:43:25,040 --> 02:43:27,160
Speaker 1: then he got got exposed to anti Semitism inside its

2781
02:43:27,200 --> 02:43:29,880
Speaker 1: Catholic schools um and that you know, pushed him onto

2782
02:43:29,920 --> 02:43:33,800
Speaker 1: this specific path. So in Urkhan made a deal with

2783
02:43:33,920 --> 02:43:36,680
Speaker 1: the head of the Conservative Party R. B. Bennett that

2784
02:43:36,760 --> 02:43:39,039
Speaker 1: in exchange for fifteen thousand dollars, which is like two

2785
02:43:39,120 --> 02:43:41,879
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thou dollars in today's money, our our

2786
02:43:41,920 --> 02:43:45,640
Speaker 1: con would craft a smear campaign. Um trying to assist

2787
02:43:45,680 --> 02:43:49,200
Speaker 1: the Conservatives in basically smearing the Liberals to gain more

2788
02:43:49,280 --> 02:43:51,920
Speaker 1: Conservative support inside the province of Quebec, which at the

2789
02:43:51,959 --> 02:43:56,120
Speaker 1: time was majority liberal leaning. So our Kan got to

2790
02:43:56,120 --> 02:43:59,320
Speaker 1: work and started prepping like pseudo fascist propaganda for the

2791
02:43:59,360 --> 02:44:02,520
Speaker 1: Conservatives um and by the nineteen thirty federal election it

2792
02:44:02,560 --> 02:44:06,039
Speaker 1: absolutely worked um Bennett and the Conservatives one they gained

2793
02:44:06,080 --> 02:44:09,480
Speaker 1: twenty four parliamentary seats in Quebec, which is a massive success.

2794
02:44:09,560 --> 02:44:12,199
Speaker 1: Like before they did not win any seats in Quebec.

2795
02:44:12,280 --> 02:44:14,720
Speaker 1: So gaining twenty four seats in for over the course

2796
02:44:14,760 --> 02:44:18,400
Speaker 1: of just one election, massive win. Um. So after getting

2797
02:44:18,400 --> 02:44:22,200
Speaker 1: the after getting the Conservatives elected, the Conservative Party dropped

2798
02:44:22,280 --> 02:44:25,200
Speaker 1: Arkhan because he was, you know, a little hashtag problematic

2799
02:44:25,800 --> 02:44:29,520
Speaker 1: um uh huh. So after he got dropped by the

2800
02:44:29,520 --> 02:44:32,880
Speaker 1: Conservatives short shortly later, our Khan made contact with the

2801
02:44:33,040 --> 02:44:36,720
Speaker 1: growing National Socialist Party in Germany um and over the

2802
02:44:36,800 --> 02:44:38,960
Speaker 1: next few years he just he started to gain more

2803
02:44:39,040 --> 02:44:41,880
Speaker 1: fascist contacts around the world. He would exchange letters, people

2804
02:44:41,920 --> 02:44:44,440
Speaker 1: from people like Peteople, people from the German Nazis would

2805
02:44:44,480 --> 02:44:46,640
Speaker 1: come over and meet with what and come over to

2806
02:44:46,680 --> 02:44:48,440
Speaker 1: Canada and see what he was doing. He would travel

2807
02:44:48,520 --> 02:44:52,040
Speaker 1: around meeting other other Nazis around the world. Um, so

2808
02:44:52,120 --> 02:44:54,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of just like just gaining a lot, a

2809
02:44:54,120 --> 02:44:56,920
Speaker 1: lot more contacts. So then in nineteen thirty four he

2810
02:44:57,000 --> 02:44:59,560
Speaker 1: formed his own fascist party, which is the Canadian National

2811
02:44:59,600 --> 02:45:02,920
Speaker 1: Socialist Unity Party, and within that year, so in in

2812
02:45:03,000 --> 02:45:06,000
Speaker 1: the you know, midnighteen thirties, it merged with other Canadian

2813
02:45:06,080 --> 02:45:09,040
Speaker 1: nationalist parties that were more based in the west, so

2814
02:45:09,160 --> 02:45:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, in the prairies like Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC.

2815
02:45:12,920 --> 02:45:15,520
Speaker 1: So he emerged a few other kind of nationalist groups

2816
02:45:15,920 --> 02:45:18,840
Speaker 1: and started gaining traction, getting thousands and thousands of members.

2817
02:45:18,920 --> 02:45:21,039
Speaker 1: This actually became an actual thing. You can find footage

2818
02:45:21,040 --> 02:45:23,400
Speaker 1: of of his rallies and they're just terrifying, just like

2819
02:45:23,480 --> 02:45:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, just it's it's the same thing whenever you

2820
02:45:25,280 --> 02:45:28,960
Speaker 1: see like the Nazis, you know, rallying in Britain. You

2821
02:45:29,000 --> 02:45:31,480
Speaker 1: know it it feels different than watching a Nazi rally

2822
02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:33,840
Speaker 1: in Germany because you can feel a lot more, you know,

2823
02:45:33,959 --> 02:45:36,200
Speaker 1: if it's it's it's the same feeling, but come but

2824
02:45:36,360 --> 02:45:39,680
Speaker 1: come home your own countrymen kind of do the same

2825
02:45:39,800 --> 02:45:42,280
Speaker 1: thing that you associate with the old footage of dead

2826
02:45:42,360 --> 02:45:48,000
Speaker 1: people is exactly yeah, so he was getting thousand numbers

2827
02:45:48,040 --> 02:45:50,800
Speaker 1: across Canada. UM, you know, mostly in the provinces of

2828
02:45:50,920 --> 02:45:54,680
Speaker 1: of Quebec and Alberta. So the two main provinces were

2829
02:45:54,760 --> 02:45:56,840
Speaker 1: to talk about are going to be Quebeca and and

2830
02:45:56,879 --> 02:45:58,800
Speaker 1: Alberta because that's where a lot of a lot of

2831
02:45:59,080 --> 02:46:02,000
Speaker 1: the far right stuff get started out. UM. So in

2832
02:46:02,080 --> 02:46:05,800
Speaker 1: ninety eight, so that's like four years after he started this, Uh,

2833
02:46:05,879 --> 02:46:09,440
Speaker 1: the Canadian National Socialist Unity Party merged again, this time

2834
02:46:09,480 --> 02:46:12,959
Speaker 1: with various nationalist group groups and so called swastika clubs.

2835
02:46:13,520 --> 02:46:17,160
Speaker 1: UM in there we're already inside like Ontario and Quebec,

2836
02:46:17,280 --> 02:46:19,360
Speaker 1: so on the eastern side of Canada. So now he

2837
02:46:19,560 --> 02:46:23,440
Speaker 1: he united both the Quebec stuff, Eastern Canada and Western Canada.

2838
02:46:23,720 --> 02:46:26,440
Speaker 1: And then he called that the National Unity Party UM

2839
02:46:26,560 --> 02:46:33,120
Speaker 1: and our Khan appointed himself the Canadian fural Gosh, yes so,

2840
02:46:33,360 --> 02:46:36,120
Speaker 1: and I'm going to quote from a time Time magazine

2841
02:46:36,160 --> 02:46:40,840
Speaker 1: piece from July of nineteen thirty eight, Our Cohn scheduled

2842
02:46:40,920 --> 02:46:45,160
Speaker 1: Canada's first national fascist convention for Kingston, Ontario. The mayor

2843
02:46:45,240 --> 02:46:47,680
Speaker 1: and city council did not want a fascist convention held

2844
02:46:47,720 --> 02:46:50,640
Speaker 1: in their city and called the police to prevent it. Defiantly,

2845
02:46:51,000 --> 02:46:53,640
Speaker 1: Leader Arkhan slipped forty five of his leaders into a

2846
02:46:53,760 --> 02:46:57,480
Speaker 1: room near police headquarters. It's this old tibe language held

2847
02:46:57,560 --> 02:47:01,920
Speaker 1: forth unmolested for five and a half hours. Upon emerging,

2848
02:47:02,120 --> 02:47:05,240
Speaker 1: Leader Arcan wired thanks to the mayor for his courtesy

2849
02:47:05,320 --> 02:47:08,560
Speaker 1: extended and announced the formation of the new National Unity Party.

2850
02:47:08,879 --> 02:47:12,160
Speaker 1: A flaming torch will be the new party's emblem, Canada

2851
02:47:12,240 --> 02:47:15,440
Speaker 1: for Canadians, its slogan, and the upraised arm of its

2852
02:47:15,520 --> 02:47:22,039
Speaker 1: salute for King, Country and Christianity. Moving onto Ontario, leader

2853
02:47:22,120 --> 02:47:25,760
Speaker 1: Arcan supported by eighty five of his Blue Shirts. Uh

2854
02:47:25,920 --> 02:47:28,000
Speaker 1: he claims there were eighty thousand members at the time,

2855
02:47:28,520 --> 02:47:31,279
Speaker 1: held a meeting in Nancy Hall that there was attended

2856
02:47:31,360 --> 02:47:35,440
Speaker 1: by about eight hundred sympathizers. More impressive, however, there were

2857
02:47:35,520 --> 02:47:40,120
Speaker 1: three anti fascist counter demonstrations held simultaneously. Two outdoor anti

2858
02:47:40,200 --> 02:47:43,879
Speaker 1: fascist meetings drew four hundred persons until broken up by

2859
02:47:43,959 --> 02:47:47,160
Speaker 1: police fearing a clash, But at Maple Leaf Gardens the

2860
02:47:47,200 --> 02:47:50,600
Speaker 1: Canadian League of Peace and Democracy attracted ten thousand so

2861
02:47:51,360 --> 02:47:54,760
Speaker 1: as was the first big fascist rally in Canada. There

2862
02:47:54,879 --> 02:47:56,800
Speaker 1: was like, you know, ten thousands of these more liberal

2863
02:47:56,879 --> 02:48:00,080
Speaker 1: people rallying elsewhere and four hundred like anti fascion just

2864
02:48:00,360 --> 02:48:03,000
Speaker 1: ready to you know, beat up these Nazis, um, but

2865
02:48:03,160 --> 02:48:06,280
Speaker 1: then the police beat them up. Because history doesn't change.

2866
02:48:06,320 --> 02:48:08,280
Speaker 1: Times of flat circle, we're still doing the same thing. Now.

2867
02:48:08,959 --> 02:48:12,800
Speaker 1: Do you know who won't rally eight hundred Canadian Nazis

2868
02:48:12,920 --> 02:48:18,360
Speaker 1: called the Blue Shirts to sell you products? Tell us

2869
02:48:18,920 --> 02:48:25,240
Speaker 1: promise that, yeah, depending depending what. Because Hello Fresh has

2870
02:48:25,959 --> 02:48:29,920
Speaker 1: recently been sending there, why do you always pick Hello Fresh?

2871
02:48:30,080 --> 02:48:35,520
Speaker 1: There are so many worse brands that we can't ignore

2872
02:48:35,600 --> 02:48:38,760
Speaker 1: the fact that they've been increasingly building their militant capacity

2873
02:48:38,879 --> 02:48:41,400
Speaker 1: for the last seven years. Anyway, here's some ads. You

2874
02:48:41,400 --> 02:48:44,960
Speaker 1: have too much to read, and we are back talking

2875
02:48:45,000 --> 02:48:51,040
Speaker 1: about the Canadian Blue Shirts, Um, the Hello Fresh, Hello

2876
02:48:52,080 --> 02:48:59,560
Speaker 1: Shut please continue, Blue Aprons, the Blue Aprons, thanks Chris

2877
02:48:59,680 --> 02:49:02,760
Speaker 1: that they Christopher saving the bit all right, thank you. Um.

2878
02:49:03,280 --> 02:49:06,000
Speaker 1: So next year, after his first rally was nineteen thirty nine,

2879
02:49:06,200 --> 02:49:08,360
Speaker 1: World War two obviously started to ramp up, and the

2880
02:49:08,400 --> 02:49:11,800
Speaker 1: Canadian government arrested Arkhan for plotting to overthrow the state

2881
02:49:12,240 --> 02:49:15,000
Speaker 1: UM and his National Unity Party was banned from federal elections.

2882
02:49:15,520 --> 02:49:18,160
Speaker 1: Arkhan was released from prison after the war, but he

2883
02:49:18,240 --> 02:49:21,040
Speaker 1: continued his political aspirations. UM. He ran for federal election

2884
02:49:21,160 --> 02:49:23,840
Speaker 1: twice in Quebec, once in nineteen forty nine and once

2885
02:49:23,920 --> 02:49:27,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty three. Both times he uh, he ran

2886
02:49:27,120 --> 02:49:29,720
Speaker 1: under his National Unity Party banner despite it being banned

2887
02:49:29,720 --> 02:49:31,960
Speaker 1: from elections. I don't know how he did that, um,

2888
02:49:32,480 --> 02:49:36,080
Speaker 1: both times, laws are fake. Yeah. Both times he placed

2889
02:49:36,200 --> 02:49:39,600
Speaker 1: second with over five and a half five and a

2890
02:49:39,600 --> 02:49:42,000
Speaker 1: half thousand votes, which was about like thirty percent of

2891
02:49:42,160 --> 02:49:45,160
Speaker 1: of of the vote. Um. Actually, but the second time

2892
02:49:45,320 --> 02:49:47,960
Speaker 1: he ran as he ran just under a nationalist banner, um,

2893
02:49:48,000 --> 02:49:50,160
Speaker 1: and he got second as well, but he got like

2894
02:49:50,840 --> 02:49:52,920
Speaker 1: the vote, so he he did a slight slightly better

2895
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:55,200
Speaker 1: just running as a nationalist in Quebec, not like the

2896
02:49:55,320 --> 02:49:57,840
Speaker 1: National Unity thing because that was, you know, more overtly Nazi.

2897
02:49:58,400 --> 02:50:00,760
Speaker 1: But he kept holding National Uni of the party public

2898
02:50:00,840 --> 02:50:04,280
Speaker 1: rallies until the mid sixties. His last rally I think

2899
02:50:04,320 --> 02:50:08,720
Speaker 1: attracted like one thousand supporters, too many. I was hoping

2900
02:50:08,760 --> 02:50:10,440
Speaker 1: you were able to say like three and there was

2901
02:50:10,640 --> 02:50:14,240
Speaker 1: probably sad footage, but that's sad in a different way. Yeah.

2902
02:50:14,879 --> 02:50:19,760
Speaker 1: So he finally died in nineteen sixty seven, and with

2903
02:50:20,000 --> 02:50:24,240
Speaker 1: him also died the National Unity Party. I So I

2904
02:50:24,480 --> 02:50:26,880
Speaker 1: bring this one up because it's one funked up and

2905
02:50:26,959 --> 02:50:30,520
Speaker 1: interesting um and too, it's like it's indicative of the

2906
02:50:30,640 --> 02:50:35,000
Speaker 1: weirdness that can come out of Quebec's nationalist political bent. Uh.

2907
02:50:35,280 --> 02:50:38,200
Speaker 1: We can see that now with a modern fact, you know,

2908
02:50:38,440 --> 02:50:41,240
Speaker 1: neo fascist Canadian political party that's based out of Quebec,

2909
02:50:41,480 --> 02:50:44,280
Speaker 1: which we will talk about shortly. Um, but even like

2910
02:50:44,320 --> 02:50:48,400
Speaker 1: the nationalist tendencies within Quebec's more mainstream progressive population. Like

2911
02:50:48,480 --> 02:50:51,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to read some of the policy positions of

2912
02:50:51,400 --> 02:50:53,640
Speaker 1: the Block cabu Qua party. That's that's that, that's the

2913
02:50:53,800 --> 02:50:57,520
Speaker 1: that's like the Quebec sovereignty you know, party that is

2914
02:50:58,160 --> 02:51:01,359
Speaker 1: still actually very very pot killer in in elections specifically

2915
02:51:01,360 --> 02:51:03,600
Speaker 1: in Quebec. And just ahead of this, if you're a

2916
02:51:03,680 --> 02:51:07,320
Speaker 1: French speaker and you're frustrated by Garrison's pronunciations or my

2917
02:51:07,440 --> 02:51:13,280
Speaker 1: pronunciations of Quebecua that your language isn't real and it's fine,

2918
02:51:14,160 --> 02:51:17,840
Speaker 1: and you're desended from the French. Yeah, and you're responsible

2919
02:51:17,879 --> 02:51:22,160
Speaker 1: for this Nazi so unlike unlike English speakers who have

2920
02:51:22,200 --> 02:51:28,280
Speaker 1: been responsible for Spanish. That's my take, okay, anyway, saying

2921
02:51:28,360 --> 02:51:32,400
Speaker 1: Spanish here here here is the progressive liberal block Qubuqua

2922
02:51:33,280 --> 02:51:37,080
Speaker 1: policy positions UM Quebec sovereignty you know, up into independence.

2923
02:51:37,120 --> 02:51:39,160
Speaker 1: But usually it's just you know, them pushing the interests

2924
02:51:39,160 --> 02:51:44,280
Speaker 1: of Quebec. UM environmentalism, abortion rights, you know, pro abortion rights, UM,

2925
02:51:44,440 --> 02:51:48,200
Speaker 1: l g l g lgbt Q rights, UM, legalization of

2926
02:51:48,400 --> 02:51:53,080
Speaker 1: assisted suicide, UM, opposition to Canadian participation in the Iraq war,

2927
02:51:53,840 --> 02:52:00,680
Speaker 1: UMU abolition, abolition of the abolition of the monarchy. All right, Uh,

2928
02:52:01,200 --> 02:52:06,560
Speaker 1: forcing forcing immigrants to speak French in Quebec lost lost

2929
02:52:07,280 --> 02:52:11,760
Speaker 1: blocking immigration to Quebec. You've also lost me the Quebec

2930
02:52:11,840 --> 02:52:14,720
Speaker 1: Secularism Law, which bans public workers in positions of authority

2931
02:52:14,760 --> 02:52:17,959
Speaker 1: from wearing religious symbols primarily targeted at Muslims, and seeks

2932
02:52:20,440 --> 02:52:26,800
Speaker 1: exemption Quebec's exemption from the requirements of the Multiculturalism Act. Yeah.

2933
02:52:26,879 --> 02:52:28,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know the Multicultural Act, but I'm

2934
02:52:29,040 --> 02:52:31,320
Speaker 1: it's great. It's it's it's good. So yeah, so you

2935
02:52:31,360 --> 02:52:33,240
Speaker 1: can kind of see how like they have you know,

2936
02:52:34,000 --> 02:52:37,240
Speaker 1: all these like you know, pretty good, pretty good progressive

2937
02:52:37,280 --> 02:52:41,480
Speaker 1: STIGs and then and then they get really anti immigrant, right,

2938
02:52:41,760 --> 02:52:43,920
Speaker 1: so this is like this is kind of hard to

2939
02:52:43,959 --> 02:52:46,480
Speaker 1: explain to Americans, how like you can be very like

2940
02:52:46,680 --> 02:52:49,160
Speaker 1: pro gay, pro you know, abolition of the monarchy, but

2941
02:52:49,200 --> 02:52:51,080
Speaker 1: then also be like no, but we don't want those

2942
02:52:51,120 --> 02:52:57,440
Speaker 1: brown people in Quebec. Yeah. So yeah, anyway, we're gon

2943
02:52:57,560 --> 02:52:59,840
Speaker 1: we're gonna move on from Quebec specifically, but don't worry,

2944
02:53:00,040 --> 02:53:02,960
Speaker 1: we will be back because you're still a problem. But

2945
02:53:03,040 --> 02:53:05,160
Speaker 1: there there are there are other things too, are other

2946
02:53:05,200 --> 02:53:08,879
Speaker 1: things to discuss. So after our CON's fascist Canadian movement,

2947
02:53:09,040 --> 02:53:12,080
Speaker 1: there was a stint of like Canadian skinheads in the seventies,

2948
02:53:12,160 --> 02:53:14,240
Speaker 1: you know, around the same time as the UK and

2949
02:53:14,440 --> 02:53:17,439
Speaker 1: the US. UM in the seventies, there was an unsuccessful

2950
02:53:17,520 --> 02:53:20,720
Speaker 1: Nazi party called the Nationalist Party of Canada that spawned

2951
02:53:20,800 --> 02:53:24,560
Speaker 1: a skinhead gang called Heritage Front. Um. Heritage Front disbanded

2952
02:53:24,560 --> 02:53:27,800
Speaker 1: around the mid two thousands because the Canadian Feds infiltrated

2953
02:53:27,840 --> 02:53:29,880
Speaker 1: it and kind of you know cut that down, so

2954
02:53:30,360 --> 02:53:33,240
Speaker 1: critical support to the Canadian fans. But now we're gonna

2955
02:53:33,280 --> 02:53:36,240
Speaker 1: move on to Unite the right, not not not the

2956
02:53:36,360 --> 02:53:38,880
Speaker 1: unite right that you're thinking of, the Canadian Unite the

2957
02:53:38,959 --> 02:53:41,960
Speaker 1: Right movement from the ninety nineties and early two thousands.

2958
02:53:42,480 --> 02:53:46,240
Speaker 1: That one probably wasn't problematic right there. It has no

2959
02:53:46,400 --> 02:53:52,600
Speaker 1: lasting problems so because of because of Canada's multi multiparty system,

2960
02:53:52,680 --> 02:53:56,280
Speaker 1: there's more opportunity for ideologically similar parties to split the vote,

2961
02:53:56,400 --> 02:53:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, of people leaning in a certain direction. Um.

2962
02:53:59,640 --> 02:54:02,200
Speaker 1: Throughout most of the later half of the twentieth century,

2963
02:54:02,400 --> 02:54:05,760
Speaker 1: they were multiple conservative right wing parties that were operating

2964
02:54:05,760 --> 02:54:07,720
Speaker 1: at the same time, which did split the right of

2965
02:54:07,800 --> 02:54:10,280
Speaker 1: center vote. This is in part what allowed Canada to

2966
02:54:10,440 --> 02:54:12,520
Speaker 1: rise as like a liberal haven, because for a while

2967
02:54:13,000 --> 02:54:15,400
Speaker 1: the Conservatives just couldn't get elected because they were splitting

2968
02:54:15,440 --> 02:54:17,720
Speaker 1: the vote too many ways, leaving the main liberal party

2969
02:54:17,879 --> 02:54:20,920
Speaker 1: to win the vast majority of elections. Um. Obviously this

2970
02:54:21,000 --> 02:54:24,400
Speaker 1: frustrated right wing politicians and vote and voters than in

2971
02:54:24,480 --> 02:54:26,560
Speaker 1: the ninety nineties there were there were there were two

2972
02:54:26,640 --> 02:54:30,080
Speaker 1: main right wing parties. There was the older Progressive Conservative Party.

2973
02:54:30,360 --> 02:54:34,119
Speaker 1: They're like a classically fiscal conservative party with slightly less

2974
02:54:34,360 --> 02:54:38,119
Speaker 1: socially conservative beliefs, so you know, I would rather take

2975
02:54:38,200 --> 02:54:41,600
Speaker 1: them compared to the alternatives here. Um. The other major

2976
02:54:41,720 --> 02:54:44,640
Speaker 1: party was a right of center party called the Reform Party,

2977
02:54:44,640 --> 02:54:46,680
Speaker 1: which was much more of like a right wing populist

2978
02:54:46,800 --> 02:54:50,320
Speaker 1: and extremely socially conservative party, more similar to like the

2979
02:54:50,400 --> 02:54:53,280
Speaker 1: Trump era Republican Party. You know, they they're they're they're

2980
02:54:53,400 --> 02:54:55,920
Speaker 1: much they're much more right wing, populist, they're way more

2981
02:54:55,959 --> 02:54:58,680
Speaker 1: socially conservative, kind of what we traditionally think of as like,

2982
02:54:58,800 --> 02:55:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, like a racist Republican that this this this

2983
02:55:01,360 --> 02:55:04,800
Speaker 1: is their party called called the Reform Party. So, after

2984
02:55:05,040 --> 02:55:07,640
Speaker 1: after loss after loss throughout the nineties and during the

2985
02:55:07,680 --> 02:55:10,720
Speaker 1: turn of the century, concertative efforts were being made between

2986
02:55:11,000 --> 02:55:14,320
Speaker 1: these two parties to unite into one. In nineteen there

2987
02:55:14,400 --> 02:55:17,320
Speaker 1: was a Unite the Right conference held in Toronto, Ontario,

2988
02:55:17,640 --> 02:55:20,080
Speaker 1: trying to bring together politicians and delegates from these two

2989
02:55:20,160 --> 02:55:23,240
Speaker 1: main conservative parties. But they also brought in some much

2990
02:55:23,320 --> 02:55:26,720
Speaker 1: more extreme Christian fascist parties, which there was like four

2991
02:55:26,720 --> 02:55:28,040
Speaker 1: of at the time. There was a lot of a

2992
02:55:28,120 --> 02:55:31,680
Speaker 1: lot of Christian fascist parties around this time. Um so

2993
02:55:31,959 --> 02:55:35,440
Speaker 1: the conference garnered a negative news coverage in part to

2994
02:55:35,560 --> 02:55:38,440
Speaker 1: due to the inclusion of these far right Christian extremist parties.

2995
02:55:38,920 --> 02:55:41,800
Speaker 1: And then after the conference, polls were conducted that suggested

2996
02:55:41,879 --> 02:55:45,080
Speaker 1: that many of the progressive conservative supporters would rather vote

2997
02:55:45,120 --> 02:55:48,720
Speaker 1: liberal than vote for the new kind of merged, more

2998
02:55:48,800 --> 02:55:50,800
Speaker 1: extreme right wing party. So like a lot of these

2999
02:55:50,840 --> 02:55:53,600
Speaker 1: a lot of these fiscal conservatives are like no, I'm

3000
02:55:53,640 --> 02:55:55,560
Speaker 1: not going to vote for all of this weird racism.

3001
02:55:55,840 --> 02:55:57,720
Speaker 1: I just don't want there to be higher taxes. So

3002
02:55:57,879 --> 02:55:59,959
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna I'm gonna rather vote for the liberals

3003
02:56:00,280 --> 02:56:02,600
Speaker 1: then vote for these fucking weirdos, which I mean, yeah,

3004
02:56:02,800 --> 02:56:08,080
Speaker 1: that's that, that's the Conservative I would rather have. UM.

3005
02:56:08,560 --> 02:56:10,880
Speaker 1: So the conference didn't sit well with the with the

3006
02:56:10,920 --> 02:56:15,240
Speaker 1: Progressive Conservative Party. UM it's politicians or or the political leaders.

3007
02:56:15,520 --> 02:56:18,240
Speaker 1: So the merger plans were cut off. They're like, no,

3008
02:56:18,400 --> 02:56:19,760
Speaker 1: we're not going to do this. You guys are too

3009
02:56:19,800 --> 02:56:23,440
Speaker 1: weird and racist. We're not doing this. UM. Then in

3010
02:56:23,520 --> 02:56:25,560
Speaker 1: two thousand to no. I think this is important that

3011
02:56:26,080 --> 02:56:28,440
Speaker 1: this was after nine eleven. I think this is really

3012
02:56:28,480 --> 02:56:31,480
Speaker 1: the reason why this happened. UM. One of the original

3013
02:56:31,640 --> 02:56:34,120
Speaker 1: Reform Party founders that the Reform Party is the more

3014
02:56:34,160 --> 02:56:37,199
Speaker 1: populist one. So one of the original founders named Stephen

3015
02:56:37,240 --> 02:56:41,320
Speaker 1: Harper took control of the populist Conservative Party and works

3016
02:56:41,400 --> 02:56:43,880
Speaker 1: to improve the optics of the more extreme sides of

3017
02:56:43,959 --> 02:56:46,680
Speaker 1: his party. I think it's very important this this happened

3018
02:56:46,680 --> 02:56:48,920
Speaker 1: after nine eleven, and this is how the merger actually worked.

3019
02:56:49,120 --> 02:56:51,360
Speaker 1: So in two thousand three, merger talks start sort of

3020
02:56:51,440 --> 02:56:53,640
Speaker 1: up again, and in August of that year, the two

3021
02:56:53,680 --> 02:56:56,160
Speaker 1: parties announced the merger had been completed. There was a

3022
02:56:56,240 --> 02:56:59,760
Speaker 1: new United Conservative Party. UM. In the announcement, harper is

3023
02:56:59,800 --> 02:57:02,959
Speaker 1: quote it as saying, our swords will henceforth be pointed

3024
02:57:03,040 --> 02:57:06,480
Speaker 1: at the Liberals, not each other, And in December Harper

3025
02:57:06,600 --> 02:57:09,680
Speaker 1: was voted in as the new party leader. The work

3026
02:57:09,840 --> 02:57:12,120
Speaker 1: did pay off in the two US and six Canadian

3027
02:57:12,160 --> 02:57:15,800
Speaker 1: federal election. The Conservatives gained a controlling minority government among

3028
02:57:15,879 --> 02:57:19,119
Speaker 1: the electorate, with the former co founder of the extremist

3029
02:57:19,640 --> 02:57:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, populist Reform Party, Stephen Harper, becoming the new

3030
02:57:23,040 --> 02:57:26,000
Speaker 1: Prime Minister of Canada. So this is how he got

3031
02:57:26,080 --> 02:57:28,080
Speaker 1: from Reform Party to being the you know, the prime

3032
02:57:28,120 --> 02:57:30,960
Speaker 1: minister in throughout through the two thousand's um he was

3033
02:57:31,040 --> 02:57:32,560
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister of Canada for most of the time

3034
02:57:32,600 --> 02:57:34,200
Speaker 1: I lived there. That that that's who I think of

3035
02:57:34,280 --> 02:57:35,840
Speaker 1: when I think of the Prime Minister of Canada's I

3036
02:57:35,920 --> 02:57:40,000
Speaker 1: think of Stephen Harper. So Harper remained as Prime minister

3037
02:57:40,200 --> 02:57:43,280
Speaker 1: until the two US fifteen election that saw noted black

3038
02:57:43,320 --> 02:57:47,800
Speaker 1: face appreciator Justin Trudeau elected under the Liberal Party. So

3039
02:57:48,480 --> 02:57:52,440
Speaker 1: that's good, what a good system we have that that

3040
02:57:52,720 --> 02:57:59,880
Speaker 1: that man like just your range of his pla say

3041
02:58:00,000 --> 02:58:04,120
Speaker 1: what you will about the man, very careful. You know

3042
02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:08,800
Speaker 1: you under no circumstances gonna hand it to him. You

3043
02:58:08,879 --> 02:58:11,120
Speaker 1: do not, in fact have to hand it to him.

3044
02:58:11,840 --> 02:58:15,200
Speaker 1: Well you have to hand him. Uh the little the

3045
02:58:15,360 --> 02:58:17,240
Speaker 1: towel that he uses to get the black face off

3046
02:58:17,280 --> 02:58:21,000
Speaker 1: of his face can go into his work running Canada.

3047
02:58:21,560 --> 02:58:27,560
Speaker 1: Huh yep, cool country. Didn't find out that like five

3048
02:58:27,640 --> 02:58:31,520
Speaker 1: of our governors all had black face photos. It was

3049
02:58:32,400 --> 02:58:34,680
Speaker 1: it was. It was a big year for black face.

3050
02:58:34,879 --> 02:58:38,720
Speaker 1: It really, It's incredible because I can't picture. Like again,

3051
02:58:38,800 --> 02:58:42,440
Speaker 1: I grew up very right wing and definitely had some

3052
02:58:42,800 --> 02:58:45,160
Speaker 1: said some uncomfortable things in my time. I don't think

3053
02:58:45,160 --> 02:58:46,560
Speaker 1: there was ever a point at which I would have

3054
02:58:46,560 --> 02:58:50,320
Speaker 1: been like, yeah, this seems like a good right it's

3055
02:58:50,400 --> 02:58:57,040
Speaker 1: what the fuck? Like? Yeah? Pretty? What is the joke there?

3056
02:58:57,120 --> 02:59:06,840
Speaker 1: It's pretty? It's pretty bad? Uh? Justin Trudeau? Uh yeah

3057
02:59:06,959 --> 02:59:11,240
Speaker 1: he is. He is the one all of the wine

3058
02:59:11,280 --> 02:59:20,080
Speaker 1: Mom's thirst over. Yeah yeah. Anyway. Um. Beyond making it

3059
02:59:20,200 --> 02:59:22,840
Speaker 1: easier to vote in right of center candidates, what what

3060
02:59:23,000 --> 02:59:25,920
Speaker 1: the Canadian Unite the Right accomplished was pushing the conservative

3061
02:59:25,959 --> 02:59:28,760
Speaker 1: establishment much further to the right than what the previously

3062
02:59:28,840 --> 02:59:33,000
Speaker 1: popular progressive Conservatives had established, while maintaining the respectability and

3063
02:59:33,080 --> 02:59:37,240
Speaker 1: civility the progressive Conservatives had cultivated. We are now going

3064
02:59:37,280 --> 02:59:41,760
Speaker 1: to skip ahead to two thousand seventeen. UM. In January seventeen,

3065
02:59:42,160 --> 02:59:45,119
Speaker 1: soon after the US President Donald Trump put into place

3066
02:59:45,200 --> 02:59:48,879
Speaker 1: the travel band from from you know, seven Muslim majority countries,

3067
02:59:49,120 --> 02:59:52,240
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau delivered a message via Twitter to

3068
02:59:52,360 --> 02:59:55,800
Speaker 1: those fleeing persecution, terror and war. Canadians will welcome you,

3069
02:59:55,879 --> 02:59:59,520
Speaker 1: regardless of your faith. Diversity is our strength. Hashtag welcome

3070
02:59:59,560 --> 03:00:03,640
Speaker 1: to Canada. Though, so Trudeau was like, if the US

3071
03:00:03,760 --> 03:00:07,080
Speaker 1: is gonna be racist, we're gonna we're gonna let them in.

3072
03:00:07,520 --> 03:00:10,120
Speaker 1: UM for this, uh, for this next part, I'm going

3073
03:00:10,160 --> 03:00:13,440
Speaker 1: to quote from the New York Times. UM. Just hours

3074
03:00:13,480 --> 03:00:16,960
Speaker 1: after watching the television report suggesting Canada would accept immigrants

3075
03:00:17,640 --> 03:00:20,280
Speaker 1: that were shunned by Trump, the twenty eight year old

3076
03:00:20,360 --> 03:00:23,720
Speaker 1: political science student packed his glock, handgun and rifle and

3077
03:00:23,879 --> 03:00:26,160
Speaker 1: trudged through the snow covered streets of Quebec to a

3078
03:00:26,280 --> 03:00:30,520
Speaker 1: nearby Islamic cultural center. As fifty three men were finishing

3079
03:00:30,600 --> 03:00:34,080
Speaker 1: evening prayers. He unloaded forty eight rounds. Six people were killed,

3080
03:00:34,320 --> 03:00:36,920
Speaker 1: several of them with shots to the head, and nineteen

3081
03:00:36,959 --> 03:00:40,160
Speaker 1: others were injured. One was paralyzed for life. In the

3082
03:00:40,240 --> 03:00:43,720
Speaker 1: month before his rampage, the shooter tralled the Internet eight

3083
03:00:43,840 --> 03:00:47,200
Speaker 1: hundred and nineteen times for posts related to Mr Trump,

3084
03:00:47,480 --> 03:00:50,080
Speaker 1: reading his Twitter feed daily and homing in on the

3085
03:00:50,120 --> 03:00:53,960
Speaker 1: American president's travel ban on several Muslim majority countries. He

3086
03:00:54,080 --> 03:00:55,960
Speaker 1: kept a cache of guns underneath his bed at his

3087
03:00:56,080 --> 03:00:58,920
Speaker 1: parents house, and among his friends was just his twin brother.

3088
03:00:59,360 --> 03:01:01,520
Speaker 1: The shooter told investigators that he wished he had killed

3089
03:01:01,560 --> 03:01:03,640
Speaker 1: more people and he wanted to protect his family from

3090
03:01:03,680 --> 03:01:07,520
Speaker 1: Islamic terrorists. Experts on radicalization say that in Quebec, the

3091
03:01:07,560 --> 03:01:10,280
Speaker 1: French speaking province surrounded by an English speaking majority, the

3092
03:01:10,360 --> 03:01:15,000
Speaker 1: anti immigrant far right offers fertile, fertile, imperilous ground for

3093
03:01:15,120 --> 03:01:19,000
Speaker 1: psychologically unstable youths seeking a sense of identity and a scapegoat.

3094
03:01:20,000 --> 03:01:22,520
Speaker 1: The head of the Canadian based Center of Prevention of

3095
03:01:22,760 --> 03:01:25,600
Speaker 1: Radicalization Leading to Violence that they said that the Quebec

3096
03:01:25,640 --> 03:01:27,440
Speaker 1: Mosque shooter was in part of it was part of

3097
03:01:27,520 --> 03:01:30,080
Speaker 1: a growing number of educated, middle class to white youths

3098
03:01:30,080 --> 03:01:32,800
Speaker 1: in Quebec drawn to far right ideas fueled by the

3099
03:01:32,840 --> 03:01:35,520
Speaker 1: election of Mr Trump and fanned by fears of immigration

3100
03:01:35,640 --> 03:01:39,040
Speaker 1: that threatens Quebec's identity. When the Anti Radicalization Center was

3101
03:01:39,080 --> 03:01:41,600
Speaker 1: started in two thousand and fifteen, they dealt with sixteen

3102
03:01:41,640 --> 03:01:44,359
Speaker 1: cases of youths in the province that we're getting radicalized

3103
03:01:44,400 --> 03:01:47,600
Speaker 1: by the far right. Last year, which was like sixteen, Uh.

3104
03:01:47,760 --> 03:01:51,120
Speaker 1: This center had one hundred and fifty four such cases.

3105
03:01:52,800 --> 03:01:56,360
Speaker 1: So this is this is kind of the the arc

3106
03:01:56,520 --> 03:01:59,800
Speaker 1: of things. Really Trump's Trump's election did respire did did

3107
03:02:00,000 --> 03:02:04,000
Speaker 1: for a lot of this growing like oh, these political

3108
03:02:04,080 --> 03:02:07,040
Speaker 1: beliefs are acceptable now, right, Like this is something that

3109
03:02:07,240 --> 03:02:09,400
Speaker 1: is like we are we are we are allowed to

3110
03:02:09,520 --> 03:02:12,400
Speaker 1: do this and that that did echo in Canada and

3111
03:02:12,400 --> 03:02:14,120
Speaker 1: across a lot of the a lot of a lot

3112
03:02:14,160 --> 03:02:16,360
Speaker 1: of other countries. Um. What what one of one of

3113
03:02:16,400 --> 03:02:19,880
Speaker 1: the victims of the of the Quebec Uh massacre his

3114
03:02:20,240 --> 03:02:23,280
Speaker 1: his father said that he come to Canada from Algeria

3115
03:02:23,560 --> 03:02:27,920
Speaker 1: in the escape terrorism um and he said that like

3116
03:02:28,080 --> 03:02:30,720
Speaker 1: Quebec did not create the monster the shooter, but the

3117
03:02:30,840 --> 03:02:35,880
Speaker 1: Islamophobia that is inherent inside Quebec gave him like the motive.

3118
03:02:36,240 --> 03:02:39,200
Speaker 1: So this is really does relate to connate to like

3119
03:02:39,360 --> 03:02:42,320
Speaker 1: the political situation of Canada. And it's very it's it's

3120
03:02:42,360 --> 03:02:44,520
Speaker 1: it's not a coincidence that the majority of these types

3121
03:02:44,560 --> 03:02:48,440
Speaker 1: of attacks are inside either Quebec, Toronto or um. You know,

3122
03:02:48,600 --> 03:02:50,959
Speaker 1: if you're if you're a white, if you're if you're

3123
03:02:51,000 --> 03:02:53,240
Speaker 1: in Alberta. It's that it's more tied to like other

3124
03:02:53,440 --> 03:02:56,000
Speaker 1: other like conservative values, but like a lot of it

3125
03:02:56,320 --> 03:02:58,640
Speaker 1: is around Quebec for a lot of these like shootings

3126
03:02:58,720 --> 03:03:01,480
Speaker 1: and all these acts of terrorist them. Um. There was

3127
03:03:01,560 --> 03:03:04,760
Speaker 1: like the there was the in celle guy who ran

3128
03:03:04,840 --> 03:03:07,840
Speaker 1: over tons of people in in Toronto with his car. Um,

3129
03:03:08,160 --> 03:03:10,040
Speaker 1: same same kind of thing of like of getting more

3130
03:03:10,160 --> 03:03:12,240
Speaker 1: more used to these kind of having these far right

3131
03:03:12,280 --> 03:03:15,560
Speaker 1: ideas be more allowed, um and then thinking them as

3132
03:03:15,600 --> 03:03:19,720
Speaker 1: more of like a normalized thing. So that so the

3133
03:03:20,520 --> 03:03:25,080
Speaker 1: Quebec mosque shooting, uh kind of well couple a lot

3134
03:03:25,120 --> 03:03:27,480
Speaker 1: of people in Canada's being like, oh, we're not immune

3135
03:03:27,520 --> 03:03:29,800
Speaker 1: to this. This is like an actual thing that we

3136
03:03:30,160 --> 03:03:33,959
Speaker 1: have to deal with. Two. Um. And the next few

3137
03:03:34,000 --> 03:03:38,440
Speaker 1: months after Trade's January announcement, border crossings did see an

3138
03:03:38,440 --> 03:03:42,600
Speaker 1: increase in Canada formally accepted more immigrants and refugees and

3139
03:03:42,760 --> 03:03:45,840
Speaker 1: and no not and there was like the term in

3140
03:03:45,920 --> 03:03:49,280
Speaker 1: Canada is like an irregular spike of border crossings. Um.

3141
03:03:49,720 --> 03:03:53,000
Speaker 1: The fact the way Canadian media reported this, I think

3142
03:03:53,000 --> 03:03:55,640
Speaker 1: it's very irresponsible, the way they tried to like frame

3143
03:03:55,720 --> 03:03:58,119
Speaker 1: this as like after this announcement, we're getting so many

3144
03:03:58,120 --> 03:04:01,440
Speaker 1: irregular crossings that only few old this type of like

3145
03:04:01,959 --> 03:04:04,800
Speaker 1: this type of anti immigrant sentiment. Um. It was. It

3146
03:04:04,959 --> 03:04:06,880
Speaker 1: was not really great. A lot of the old articles

3147
03:04:06,920 --> 03:04:08,879
Speaker 1: I pulled up for this for like, had really had

3148
03:04:08,920 --> 03:04:13,920
Speaker 1: really disgusting framing, especially you know, viewing it now. So

3149
03:04:14,400 --> 03:04:17,600
Speaker 1: in March, the Canadian Parliament passed a motion that condemns

3150
03:04:17,680 --> 03:04:20,840
Speaker 1: Islamophobia and request that the government recognized the need to

3151
03:04:21,000 --> 03:04:25,320
Speaker 1: quell the public of climate of fear and hate specifically

3152
03:04:25,400 --> 03:04:29,480
Speaker 1: around Muslims and immigrants. Um. The motion was non binding,

3153
03:04:29,879 --> 03:04:31,800
Speaker 1: So it doesn't it doesn't mean anything. It's just the

3154
03:04:31,879 --> 03:04:36,000
Speaker 1: government saying something nice. Um. But it's still it's it's

3155
03:04:36,000 --> 03:04:39,800
Speaker 1: still sparked tons of outrage. Um. You know. It called

3156
03:04:39,840 --> 03:04:42,320
Speaker 1: on the government to condemn Islamophobia and all forms of

3157
03:04:42,640 --> 03:04:47,280
Speaker 1: systemic racism and discrimination. Uh. The the margin was passed

3158
03:04:47,360 --> 03:04:49,800
Speaker 1: by like it was passed by a margin of like

3159
03:04:49,879 --> 03:04:55,040
Speaker 1: two hundred two h two over ninety so people a

3160
03:04:55,120 --> 03:04:57,120
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of the Conservatives in Parliament didn't

3161
03:04:57,120 --> 03:05:00,879
Speaker 1: didn't like this, but it it's it's garnered so much

3162
03:05:00,920 --> 03:05:03,960
Speaker 1: online backlash. There were there were petitions and nationwide protests

3163
03:05:04,080 --> 03:05:07,480
Speaker 1: condemning this bill as an attack on free speech um

3164
03:05:08,040 --> 03:05:10,920
Speaker 1: and uh. The the person who introduced the bill, um

3165
03:05:11,160 --> 03:05:15,720
Speaker 1: uh in an MP named um Akra Khalid, received death

3166
03:05:15,760 --> 03:05:19,400
Speaker 1: threats um on through like their email and like they

3167
03:05:19,480 --> 03:05:23,119
Speaker 1: had like their private private information leaked. And it turned

3168
03:05:23,120 --> 03:05:25,680
Speaker 1: in this very very big kind of one of the

3169
03:05:25,760 --> 03:05:27,880
Speaker 1: first things where it had like these like national protests

3170
03:05:27,920 --> 03:05:29,840
Speaker 1: in Canada that you know, similar to how we had

3171
03:05:29,840 --> 03:05:31,920
Speaker 1: like the free speech thing around to two and seventeen.

3172
03:05:31,920 --> 03:05:33,600
Speaker 1: This was like the Canadian version of that and how

3173
03:05:33,680 --> 03:05:37,200
Speaker 1: this kind of started. UM. Then in December, Urdeau signed

3174
03:05:37,240 --> 03:05:41,039
Speaker 1: into the United Nations Global Migration Pact. There's another non

3175
03:05:41,120 --> 03:05:44,520
Speaker 1: binding incentive designed to provide understanding among nations about how

3176
03:05:44,600 --> 03:05:47,440
Speaker 1: to deal with the global immigration crisis. Again, all these

3177
03:05:47,480 --> 03:05:49,960
Speaker 1: things are just people talking um but it made people

3178
03:05:50,360 --> 03:05:53,600
Speaker 1: very very mad because if you're talking about it, that

3179
03:05:53,640 --> 03:05:55,640
Speaker 1: means it actually is real and it's actually gonna affect you,

3180
03:05:55,920 --> 03:05:59,879
Speaker 1: or it's just ignoring that these problems exist. So really,

3181
03:06:00,120 --> 03:06:02,760
Speaker 1: after Trump's election, after the Quebec, after after the Quebec

3182
03:06:02,879 --> 03:06:05,240
Speaker 1: Mosque shooting, than we have all these bills. This kind

3183
03:06:05,280 --> 03:06:09,920
Speaker 1: of ignited a in person rallying possibility and in person

3184
03:06:10,000 --> 03:06:13,600
Speaker 1: protests that Canada hadn't really seen before for this type

3185
03:06:13,640 --> 03:06:17,880
Speaker 1: of like anti immigration sentiments. Um, and we'll we'll talk

3186
03:06:17,920 --> 03:06:20,959
Speaker 1: more about these protests after after we have a little

3187
03:06:21,080 --> 03:06:23,640
Speaker 1: little bit of an ad break. You know, who doesn't

3188
03:06:24,360 --> 03:06:28,080
Speaker 1: get protested except for that one time when they illegally

3189
03:06:28,200 --> 03:06:32,360
Speaker 1: overthrew the government of Ecuador. Uh, have to be more

3190
03:06:32,520 --> 03:06:36,800
Speaker 1: the the That's right, Garrison, our sponsors only one time

3191
03:06:37,000 --> 03:06:44,600
Speaker 1: did they cause mass protests as a result of overthrowing

3192
03:06:44,959 --> 03:06:50,720
Speaker 1: a sovereign government. That's pretty good, Garrison, Pretty good. Are

3193
03:06:50,760 --> 03:06:52,440
Speaker 1: you trying to do like a Banana republic thing? What

3194
03:06:52,720 --> 03:06:55,000
Speaker 1: are you? What are you doing? I'm just saying most

3195
03:06:55,200 --> 03:06:59,760
Speaker 1: podcasts three to four governments overthrown by their sponsors, all right,

3196
03:07:00,040 --> 03:07:04,120
Speaker 1: could happen here? Just the one baby, Hello, welcome to

3197
03:07:04,400 --> 03:07:07,040
Speaker 1: Why Canada isn't a liberal utopia and actually has a

3198
03:07:07,120 --> 03:07:09,840
Speaker 1: lot of the same systemic problems that every other Western

3199
03:07:09,920 --> 03:07:13,000
Speaker 1: country does, and it's not immune to fascist infiltration and

3200
03:07:13,600 --> 03:07:19,879
Speaker 1: co option so as so, I know, we we've talked

3201
03:07:19,920 --> 03:07:23,400
Speaker 1: a lot abou Quebec and stuff, which is uh great

3202
03:07:23,480 --> 03:07:25,800
Speaker 1: because yeah, it is a problem. But this exists in

3203
03:07:25,840 --> 03:07:28,440
Speaker 1: the western provinces as well. Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC have a

3204
03:07:28,520 --> 03:07:30,760
Speaker 1: lot of these growing kind of things. But they're not

3205
03:07:30,800 --> 03:07:32,800
Speaker 1: French Canadians doing this. They're more like you know what

3206
03:07:32,959 --> 03:07:37,680
Speaker 1: we in America would you know recognize as like rule conservatives. UM.

3207
03:07:38,360 --> 03:07:41,360
Speaker 1: So around all of this, you know, increased discussion around

3208
03:07:41,360 --> 03:07:45,160
Speaker 1: immigration in two seventeen UM, around the same time people

3209
03:07:45,200 --> 03:07:47,160
Speaker 1: in Western Canada have We're facing a bit of an

3210
03:07:47,200 --> 03:07:50,280
Speaker 1: economic recession. They had you know, significant job loss around

3211
03:07:50,320 --> 03:07:53,280
Speaker 1: this time UM. And projects that traditionally brought work to

3212
03:07:53,360 --> 03:07:55,720
Speaker 1: the area, like pipelines were you know, there was discussion

3213
03:07:55,720 --> 03:07:57,960
Speaker 1: of them getting stalled and people you know moving more

3214
03:07:58,000 --> 03:08:00,560
Speaker 1: towards renewable energy. This kind of increasing of the political

3215
03:08:00,600 --> 03:08:04,120
Speaker 1: tensions between the Eastern you know, liberal majority Canada and

3216
03:08:04,280 --> 03:08:08,840
Speaker 1: the western more rule Canada. Um. Quoting an article from

3217
03:08:08,920 --> 03:08:11,800
Speaker 1: the CBC, Uh, Trudeau just keeps giving away all of

3218
03:08:11,840 --> 03:08:15,760
Speaker 1: our money to immigrants, said Samantha two boy and is

3219
03:08:15,800 --> 03:08:17,800
Speaker 1: a that is a French name. I'm not even attempted

3220
03:08:17,879 --> 03:08:23,880
Speaker 1: that one. Samantha Frenchie. Anyway, this mother of five, she

3221
03:08:24,040 --> 03:08:27,640
Speaker 1: attained a January fifth rally with a Webster, her husband,

3222
03:08:27,720 --> 03:08:30,199
Speaker 1: and two of their children. It was her first protest

3223
03:08:30,320 --> 03:08:33,200
Speaker 1: for any cause we're stuck paying for all this money

3224
03:08:33,280 --> 03:08:35,600
Speaker 1: that he wants to give away to everybody, but Canadians.

3225
03:08:35,920 --> 03:08:37,920
Speaker 1: My kids are growing up, and my grandkids and all

3226
03:08:37,959 --> 03:08:39,560
Speaker 1: of their kids are going to be poor and stuck

3227
03:08:39,600 --> 03:08:41,040
Speaker 1: in a hole that they're never going to get out of.

3228
03:08:42,480 --> 03:08:44,640
Speaker 1: This is this is you know, very common type of thing,

3229
03:08:44,840 --> 03:08:47,280
Speaker 1: like oh, we're getting taxed and taking all of our

3230
03:08:47,280 --> 03:08:49,560
Speaker 1: money and giving giving away to immigrants. This happened after this,

3231
03:08:49,680 --> 03:08:52,560
Speaker 1: after the Syrian refugee crisis, when Canada is sort of

3232
03:08:52,600 --> 03:08:55,280
Speaker 1: accepting a lot of Syrian immigrants. That's that's around the

3233
03:08:55,280 --> 03:08:59,480
Speaker 1: time that I left Canada. Um. But I totally remember people,

3234
03:08:59,560 --> 03:09:03,280
Speaker 1: you know, having very similar sentiments of like, why are

3235
03:09:03,320 --> 03:09:06,320
Speaker 1: we you know, paying for all of these refugees, you know,

3236
03:09:06,400 --> 03:09:08,800
Speaker 1: and and that that that's that's the thing that happens

3237
03:09:08,800 --> 03:09:12,720
Speaker 1: in the States too. Yeah. Um. So, the economic tensions

3238
03:09:12,760 --> 03:09:15,920
Speaker 1: developing in Western Canada, combined with the increase in anti

3239
03:09:15,920 --> 03:09:19,040
Speaker 1: immigration sentiments among conservatives, were in part spurred by the

3240
03:09:19,040 --> 03:09:23,920
Speaker 1: Trump presidency led to the Canadian yellow Vest movement. UM.

3241
03:09:24,440 --> 03:09:27,400
Speaker 1: This is totally separate from the French protest movement UM.

3242
03:09:27,480 --> 03:09:30,560
Speaker 1: The Canadian version just stole like the working class branding,

3243
03:09:31,200 --> 03:09:34,600
Speaker 1: just used it for their proto fascist crusade UM. So

3244
03:09:34,720 --> 03:09:39,640
Speaker 1: the Canadian yellow Vests were a a group of connected

3245
03:09:39,680 --> 03:09:43,680
Speaker 1: protest movements over the course of nineteen that had a

3246
03:09:43,760 --> 03:09:45,480
Speaker 1: lot of like in personalities but also a lot of

3247
03:09:45,600 --> 03:09:49,200
Speaker 1: online mobilization. It's kind of since died out, but it

3248
03:09:49,360 --> 03:09:52,800
Speaker 1: was a major force in pushing right wing extremism in

3249
03:09:52,920 --> 03:09:57,800
Speaker 1: Canada and having it be accessible to like regular people,

3250
03:09:57,920 --> 03:10:00,240
Speaker 1: right It's it's not It's not like the Proud Boys

3251
03:10:00,240 --> 03:10:01,920
Speaker 1: at all, where it's like you know specific you know,

3252
03:10:02,080 --> 03:10:05,120
Speaker 1: bad people doing this thing. It was like appealing to like,

3253
03:10:05,240 --> 03:10:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, the oil workers, appealing to like the moms.

3254
03:10:08,200 --> 03:10:10,119
Speaker 1: It was like it was it was. It was primarily

3255
03:10:10,240 --> 03:10:13,840
Speaker 1: used Facebook as a means of passing off this type

3256
03:10:13,840 --> 03:10:17,720
Speaker 1: of information and making it seem you know acceptable. Um.

3257
03:10:18,320 --> 03:10:22,080
Speaker 1: The Canadian Lovests, quoting an article from Vice UM, Canadian Yelvest,

3258
03:10:22,160 --> 03:10:24,240
Speaker 1: which had over a hundred thousand members on their Facebook

3259
03:10:24,280 --> 03:10:29,240
Speaker 1: as of May, carries the greatest potential for radicalization leading

3260
03:10:29,280 --> 03:10:31,840
Speaker 1: to violence in Canada right now, according to the executive

3261
03:10:31,879 --> 03:10:34,640
Speaker 1: director of the Canadian Anti Hate Network uh. The group's

3262
03:10:34,640 --> 03:10:37,480
Speaker 1: description says it says it was created to protest the

3263
03:10:37,600 --> 03:10:41,200
Speaker 1: carbon tax and build that pipeline and stand against the

3264
03:10:41,280 --> 03:10:43,640
Speaker 1: treason of our country's politicians who have the audacity to

3265
03:10:43,720 --> 03:10:47,240
Speaker 1: sell our country's sovereignty over to the globalist u N

3266
03:10:47,360 --> 03:10:51,200
Speaker 1: and their tyrannical policies. But concerns over Canadian oil sector

3267
03:10:51,240 --> 03:10:54,280
Speaker 1: appeared to be a very little factor in the discussion

3268
03:10:54,360 --> 03:10:57,360
Speaker 1: that goes on inside these groups. Instead, members are obsessing

3269
03:10:57,440 --> 03:11:00,560
Speaker 1: over with the defending you know, Western civilization from Islam,

3270
03:11:01,000 --> 03:11:04,120
Speaker 1: bashing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and spreading whatever you know,

3271
03:11:04,160 --> 03:11:06,360
Speaker 1: far right conspiracy theory is trending at the time, and

3272
03:11:06,480 --> 03:11:09,360
Speaker 1: I cannot overstate the amount that these people hate Trudeau.

3273
03:11:09,680 --> 03:11:12,400
Speaker 1: But it's it's not for like reasons because he wore

3274
03:11:12,440 --> 03:11:15,720
Speaker 1: black face. Like they find the most bizarre ways to

3275
03:11:15,959 --> 03:11:18,800
Speaker 1: hate this man um A lot of these people think

3276
03:11:18,879 --> 03:11:21,960
Speaker 1: that Justin Trudeau is the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro.

3277
03:11:22,320 --> 03:11:27,480
Speaker 1: This is a this is you look similar. This is

3278
03:11:27,600 --> 03:11:31,760
Speaker 1: a very a very popular conspiracy theory in Canada. It

3279
03:11:31,959 --> 03:11:35,519
Speaker 1: is like the way that Trudeau is treated by conservatives

3280
03:11:35,600 --> 03:11:38,160
Speaker 1: is baffling because like I hate Justin Trudeau, but I

3281
03:11:38,200 --> 03:11:40,680
Speaker 1: think I hate him for like reasonable reasons, Like he

3282
03:11:40,760 --> 03:11:43,000
Speaker 1: made a lot bunch of promises around you know, environment

3283
03:11:43,040 --> 03:11:46,080
Speaker 1: stuff that he didn't follow through on. He doesn't do

3284
03:11:46,200 --> 03:11:48,600
Speaker 1: he doesn't do anything he is. He does a lot

3285
03:11:48,680 --> 03:11:52,720
Speaker 1: of black face. It's like there's a lot of reasons

3286
03:11:52,800 --> 03:11:55,920
Speaker 1: to hate Justin Trudeau, but not because he's the illegitimate

3287
03:11:56,040 --> 03:11:58,720
Speaker 1: son of Fidel Castro leading us to like leading trying

3288
03:11:58,760 --> 03:12:01,160
Speaker 1: to sneak Canada into with the socialist you end, like

3289
03:12:01,240 --> 03:12:04,080
Speaker 1: that's not that's not what he's doing. Like, yeah, he

3290
03:12:04,200 --> 03:12:06,560
Speaker 1: was the illegitimate son of Fidel Castro. There's a couple

3291
03:12:06,640 --> 03:12:09,240
Speaker 1: of those in the United States. One of his daughters

3292
03:12:09,480 --> 03:12:13,240
Speaker 1: is now like a right wing radio personality, and that

3293
03:12:13,360 --> 03:12:17,120
Speaker 1: makes so much sense. He you know, he's Castro. He

3294
03:12:17,160 --> 03:12:19,480
Speaker 1: did a lot of fucking Like who who would care?

3295
03:12:19,600 --> 03:12:22,039
Speaker 1: It's not your your fault, who your dad is. It's

3296
03:12:22,120 --> 03:12:24,800
Speaker 1: just like this is it's it's like it's like a weaker,

3297
03:12:25,240 --> 03:12:30,720
Speaker 1: like funnier version of Birtherism. Yeah, like it is. It

3298
03:12:30,800 --> 03:12:33,480
Speaker 1: makes it It is like the Canadian version of that like,

3299
03:12:35,560 --> 03:12:37,960
Speaker 1: it's very weird. He's like Justin Trudeau is very cringe e.

3300
03:12:38,280 --> 03:12:41,360
Speaker 1: He lies about all of his promises. Um, he talks

3301
03:12:41,360 --> 03:12:43,320
Speaker 1: about game, he does a lot of virtue signaling, he

3302
03:12:43,360 --> 03:12:45,080
Speaker 1: does a lot of black face. There's are all really

3303
03:12:45,120 --> 03:12:48,200
Speaker 1: good reasons to have a lot of black face. UM, yeah,

3304
03:12:48,240 --> 03:12:51,400
Speaker 1: a lot of black face. But the way the ways

3305
03:12:51,440 --> 03:12:53,160
Speaker 1: that they come up with trying to make him seem

3306
03:12:53,160 --> 03:12:56,240
Speaker 1: like a bad dude just baffling. UM, very very bizarre.

3307
03:12:56,400 --> 03:13:00,120
Speaker 1: So UM in an interview with somebody from the Yellows

3308
03:13:00,360 --> 03:13:02,879
Speaker 1: Exposed Anti Fascist Research Team, which was a very good

3309
03:13:02,920 --> 03:13:06,560
Speaker 1: Twitter account around it's it's it's inactive now, but this

3310
03:13:06,720 --> 03:13:08,640
Speaker 1: this was a very good account, a very good account

3311
03:13:08,680 --> 03:13:10,520
Speaker 1: that did really really solid research into the into the

3312
03:13:10,560 --> 03:13:13,160
Speaker 1: Ellis movement. UM. In an interview, they were asked what

3313
03:13:13,240 --> 03:13:15,120
Speaker 1: type of impact they think the elbsts could have in

3314
03:13:15,200 --> 03:13:19,240
Speaker 1: Canada and this was this was their response. The image

3315
03:13:19,240 --> 03:13:22,320
Speaker 1: of the threat is no longer the skinhead, blooded, blood,

3316
03:13:22,320 --> 03:13:24,560
Speaker 1: blood and honor type. We're dealing with average people who

3317
03:13:24,600 --> 03:13:27,240
Speaker 1: don't understand the impact of the rhetoric. They're calling for

3318
03:13:27,320 --> 03:13:29,920
Speaker 1: the mass death of an entire religion, or they're celebrating

3319
03:13:29,920 --> 03:13:32,440
Speaker 1: them or they're celebrating the violence against that religion, or

3320
03:13:32,480 --> 03:13:35,680
Speaker 1: they're celebrating violence against government officials. They are just one

3321
03:13:35,760 --> 03:13:38,440
Speaker 1: step away from outright fascism, but they can't see that,

3322
03:13:38,600 --> 03:13:41,200
Speaker 1: and they refuse to see that, which I think it's

3323
03:13:41,320 --> 03:13:44,440
Speaker 1: very is a very good UM summary of like how

3324
03:13:44,800 --> 03:13:50,119
Speaker 1: the yellow vests were a popular movement specifically on Facebook. Um.

3325
03:13:50,959 --> 03:13:54,960
Speaker 1: Another part of it was the idea of like Western separatism. Um. Like,

3326
03:13:55,120 --> 03:13:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, the people in Western Canada feel ignored, They

3327
03:13:57,440 --> 03:13:59,840
Speaker 1: feel you know, put upon, They feel oppressed not just

3328
03:14:00,000 --> 03:14:02,560
Speaker 1: for feeling not not just for being Westerners, but they

3329
03:14:02,680 --> 03:14:05,959
Speaker 1: honestly feel oppressed because they're white. They feel like, oh,

3330
03:14:06,040 --> 03:14:08,440
Speaker 1: we're focusing on you know, only gonna give money to

3331
03:14:08,760 --> 03:14:11,040
Speaker 1: the brown people. That's the kind of thing that they

3332
03:14:11,080 --> 03:14:14,080
Speaker 1: feel like in the West. Um, they're like, well, you know,

3333
03:14:14,280 --> 03:14:16,160
Speaker 1: my right to free speech was taken away because of

3334
03:14:16,240 --> 03:14:19,400
Speaker 1: the because of the non binding bill, and refugees can

3335
03:14:19,440 --> 03:14:21,280
Speaker 1: just walk across the border and they make more money

3336
03:14:21,320 --> 03:14:23,040
Speaker 1: than I do. So they they have they have all

3337
03:14:23,040 --> 03:14:25,360
Speaker 1: these all these ideas that are not actually based in reality,

3338
03:14:25,560 --> 03:14:27,760
Speaker 1: but they can believe them. Um. And they you know,

3339
03:14:27,840 --> 03:14:30,040
Speaker 1: find these new sources that are just echo chambers that

3340
03:14:30,080 --> 03:14:33,000
Speaker 1: reinforce this belief to the point where they they become

3341
03:14:33,959 --> 03:14:37,720
Speaker 1: radicalize themselves. UM. It's very it's a very very common thing,

3342
03:14:37,800 --> 03:14:40,240
Speaker 1: especially around twenties nineteen. I was tracking a lot of

3343
03:14:40,240 --> 03:14:42,560
Speaker 1: these Facebook groups around twenty nine as well, just in

3344
03:14:42,680 --> 03:14:45,440
Speaker 1: my spare time, UM, because it's just interesting to watch

3345
03:14:45,520 --> 03:14:49,440
Speaker 1: them interact. UM. I'm gonna give like, you know, like

3346
03:14:49,680 --> 03:14:53,240
Speaker 1: a brief recap of like a typical yell yellow best

3347
03:14:53,280 --> 03:14:56,720
Speaker 1: protest around like Edmonton UM, based a bit off of

3348
03:14:57,280 --> 03:14:59,480
Speaker 1: of of of a few CBC articles, So you know,

3349
03:15:00,040 --> 03:15:03,240
Speaker 1: testers would gather around in front of UM like the

3350
03:15:04,080 --> 03:15:08,480
Speaker 1: legislative building, holding signs, wearing bright yellow vests. UM. And

3351
03:15:08,520 --> 03:15:11,640
Speaker 1: they would do this like basically every every weekend for

3352
03:15:11,840 --> 03:15:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, months and months and months on end. UM.

3353
03:15:14,440 --> 03:15:17,080
Speaker 1: Some protesters when we stand at the podium showing conspiracy

3354
03:15:17,120 --> 03:15:20,000
Speaker 1: theories about how powerful the Jewish families controlling the world

3355
03:15:20,080 --> 03:15:22,760
Speaker 1: are UM, as one as one dude did at the

3356
03:15:22,840 --> 03:15:29,000
Speaker 1: Alberta Legislature UM on like January. UM. Some may come

3357
03:15:29,120 --> 03:15:34,400
Speaker 1: sporting red make Alberta great again. Hats uh. This was

3358
03:15:34,600 --> 03:15:39,199
Speaker 1: very very popular, very popular. UM. Others may proud the sidelines,

3359
03:15:39,200 --> 03:15:41,160
Speaker 1: stress like they belong to a biker gang. Um. Instead

3360
03:15:41,160 --> 03:15:43,640
Speaker 1: of only instead of Hell's Angels patches, they have patries

3361
03:15:43,680 --> 03:15:49,000
Speaker 1: that say Wolves of Odin and Canadian Infidels. Uh. I'm

3362
03:15:49,000 --> 03:15:51,200
Speaker 1: gonna give you one, guests, what type of ideology the

3363
03:15:51,440 --> 03:15:58,080
Speaker 1: Wolves of Odin have? Yeah, the the communists, Yeah, no,

3364
03:15:58,200 --> 03:16:01,600
Speaker 1: they're not season Um. But most of the protesters voices

3365
03:16:01,640 --> 03:16:03,959
Speaker 1: are not away from like, are not from the fringes.

3366
03:16:04,000 --> 03:16:06,560
Speaker 1: Most of them just have jobs, um, you know, you

3367
03:16:06,640 --> 03:16:08,959
Speaker 1: know in like high rises, or they drive it for Uber,

3368
03:16:09,160 --> 03:16:11,800
Speaker 1: or their teachers or pipe fitters or real estate agents.

3369
03:16:12,560 --> 03:16:15,120
Speaker 1: And although their message is like muddled by all of

3370
03:16:15,160 --> 03:16:17,640
Speaker 1: these other like you know, much more overtly extremist kind

3371
03:16:17,640 --> 03:16:19,920
Speaker 1: of talking points, they all have one thing in common

3372
03:16:20,000 --> 03:16:21,840
Speaker 1: that they feel like they're getting ignored and being left

3373
03:16:21,879 --> 03:16:25,160
Speaker 1: behind by the liberals in the east. UM. This is

3374
03:16:25,200 --> 03:16:27,320
Speaker 1: echoed by one of the person they got interviewed at

3375
03:16:27,320 --> 03:16:29,800
Speaker 1: these rallies was named Lynn Smith, who was a former

3376
03:16:30,400 --> 03:16:33,200
Speaker 1: oil and gas worker who now works in the school system. UM.

3377
03:16:33,640 --> 03:16:35,840
Speaker 1: They were at a a yellow vest rally on in

3378
03:16:35,959 --> 03:16:41,280
Speaker 1: January that was like the fourth first fourth protester she attended. UM.

3379
03:16:41,440 --> 03:16:44,160
Speaker 1: She said, they're just giving away our country. We have

3380
03:16:44,280 --> 03:16:47,240
Speaker 1: no rights anymore. They're taking them away. No more Lord's prayer.

3381
03:16:47,320 --> 03:16:50,880
Speaker 1: But they're putting prayer prayer rooms in schools for Muslims. Um,

3382
03:16:51,120 --> 03:16:52,960
Speaker 1: marry Christmas. You're you're You're not. You're not allowed to

3383
03:16:52,959 --> 03:16:55,520
Speaker 1: say anymore. It's supposed to be happy holidays. They're changing,

3384
03:16:55,560 --> 03:16:57,240
Speaker 1: they're changing our country, and we've got to stand up

3385
03:16:57,240 --> 03:16:59,720
Speaker 1: and say something about it, because because this is our

3386
03:16:59,760 --> 03:17:01,920
Speaker 1: count tree, I was born here, my parents are born here.

3387
03:17:02,000 --> 03:17:05,640
Speaker 1: It's wrong. So you know, I'm sure people in the

3388
03:17:05,680 --> 03:17:08,760
Speaker 1: States are familiar with this type of rhetoric. Um, but

3389
03:17:09,120 --> 03:17:12,600
Speaker 1: the the increased nature of in Canada was surprising to

3390
03:17:12,680 --> 03:17:14,480
Speaker 1: a lot of Canadians and like president of a lot

3391
03:17:14,520 --> 03:17:17,600
Speaker 1: of like liberal Canadians, because they're like, but you're you're

3392
03:17:17,640 --> 03:17:19,520
Speaker 1: in Canada. Why are you doing the States thing? Why?

3393
03:17:19,600 --> 03:17:20,840
Speaker 1: Why are you doing the thing that they do in

3394
03:17:20,879 --> 03:17:23,320
Speaker 1: the States. Why are you doing it here? Um? But

3395
03:17:23,400 --> 03:17:24,920
Speaker 1: you know, the same reason you know people do in

3396
03:17:25,000 --> 03:17:27,240
Speaker 1: the States is because they feel ignored by politicians, you know,

3397
03:17:27,320 --> 03:17:30,760
Speaker 1: saying that's that's why this happens in Saskatchewan and Alberta

3398
03:17:31,440 --> 03:17:34,039
Speaker 1: NBC way more than it happens in like Ontario, right,

3399
03:17:34,200 --> 03:17:36,520
Speaker 1: is because you know, the more farther away you are from,

3400
03:17:36,600 --> 03:17:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, the big cities, the less your interests are

3401
03:17:39,240 --> 03:17:41,160
Speaker 1: cared for by a lot of politicians. So the ones

3402
03:17:41,200 --> 03:17:43,040
Speaker 1: that speak to you are these like extremists who are

3403
03:17:43,040 --> 03:17:46,119
Speaker 1: trying to pray on these actual you know, financial insecurities.

3404
03:17:46,760 --> 03:17:49,640
Speaker 1: Um so A lot some of the protesters say that

3405
03:17:49,640 --> 03:17:52,280
Speaker 1: they're not like a post immigration but but most of

3406
03:17:52,360 --> 03:17:54,880
Speaker 1: the focus of the Edmonton Yellow Best rallies has been

3407
03:17:55,240 --> 03:17:57,000
Speaker 1: has been about who can come into the country and

3408
03:17:57,040 --> 03:18:00,040
Speaker 1: how they're allowed to get here. Um one one I

3409
03:18:00,240 --> 03:18:03,120
Speaker 1: named Brett Webster, the father of five for works like

3410
03:18:03,520 --> 03:18:07,160
Speaker 1: contruction construction industry, says they're overwhelming our resources. We can't

3411
03:18:07,160 --> 03:18:08,760
Speaker 1: properly let these people and make sure it's safe for

3412
03:18:08,840 --> 03:18:10,560
Speaker 1: them to come in and make sure that they're skilled

3413
03:18:10,600 --> 03:18:12,800
Speaker 1: and assimilate into our country and know our ways and

3414
03:18:12,879 --> 03:18:16,680
Speaker 1: our values. So most of the extremest stuff in Canada

3415
03:18:16,720 --> 03:18:19,920
Speaker 1: outside of Quebec does come from does come specifically from Alberta.

3416
03:18:20,360 --> 03:18:22,200
Speaker 1: You know, the big big cities in Alberta are our

3417
03:18:22,480 --> 03:18:24,880
Speaker 1: Calgary and Edmonton. This happens also in a lot of

3418
03:18:24,959 --> 03:18:27,440
Speaker 1: the more rural areas that you know, mostly used to

3419
03:18:27,520 --> 03:18:31,600
Speaker 1: run on like oil drilling. UM After losing an election

3420
03:18:31,680 --> 03:18:36,120
Speaker 1: to the more social democratic NDP party. Uh, the two

3421
03:18:36,200 --> 03:18:39,280
Speaker 1: provincial Conservative parties in Alberta had their own little mini

3422
03:18:39,920 --> 03:18:42,880
Speaker 1: Unite the Right and merged together in to US in seventeen,

3423
03:18:43,360 --> 03:18:45,760
Speaker 1: leading to their success in the polls in ten. So

3424
03:18:45,959 --> 03:18:48,360
Speaker 1: then the Conservatives have since then, they've done a whole

3425
03:18:48,360 --> 03:18:51,320
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff in Alberta, like cutting down their health

3426
03:18:51,360 --> 03:18:52,760
Speaker 1: care to actually a lot of a lot of the

3427
03:18:52,760 --> 03:18:55,560
Speaker 1: Conservative voters don't like, but like they voted for because

3428
03:18:55,560 --> 03:18:58,080
Speaker 1: that was the platform. You just were being scared of

3429
03:18:58,120 --> 03:19:00,360
Speaker 1: brown people, so you voted for the Conservatives. Now, but

3430
03:19:00,440 --> 03:19:04,680
Speaker 1: now your healthcare is cut. So that's that's how politics works. Um.

3431
03:19:05,320 --> 03:19:06,880
Speaker 1: So that that's kind of a brief summary of the

3432
03:19:06,920 --> 03:19:08,960
Speaker 1: Yellow US movement and how it how it gained a

3433
03:19:09,000 --> 03:19:12,039
Speaker 1: lot of popularity. Um. They they would do rallies around

3434
03:19:12,080 --> 03:19:14,120
Speaker 1: like polling centers. They would they would they would they

3435
03:19:14,160 --> 03:19:17,600
Speaker 1: would attack people. They would have you know, violent rallies

3436
03:19:17,640 --> 03:19:20,120
Speaker 1: where a lot of like older, older men who were

3437
03:19:20,160 --> 03:19:22,720
Speaker 1: in the Yellows movement would be you know, pretty violent

3438
03:19:22,840 --> 03:19:26,160
Speaker 1: towards you know, and anyone in their area during a protest. Um.

3439
03:19:27,280 --> 03:19:31,039
Speaker 1: But they kind of kind of around COVID, the Yellow

3440
03:19:31,080 --> 03:19:33,960
Speaker 1: Vess kind of sput it out. A lot of the

3441
03:19:33,959 --> 03:19:36,360
Speaker 1: people in these Facebook groups got you know, moved into

3442
03:19:36,480 --> 03:19:39,920
Speaker 1: other conspiracy theory groups um, and the LLOS movement kind

3443
03:19:39,920 --> 03:19:42,200
Speaker 1: of lost its train. UM. So that's where we're kind

3444
03:19:42,200 --> 03:19:44,400
Speaker 1: of going to end for today, is with the kind

3445
03:19:44,440 --> 03:19:47,280
Speaker 1: of the LLOSS kind of fizzling out, and then the

3446
03:19:47,360 --> 03:19:50,080
Speaker 1: next part we'll talk about what's happening from like en

3447
03:19:50,480 --> 03:19:52,640
Speaker 1: and the election that year took like kind of the

3448
03:19:52,760 --> 03:19:58,160
Speaker 1: present fascist rumblings um inside different sectors of Canadian politics.

3449
03:19:58,320 --> 03:20:01,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, that is that's my that's my very very

3450
03:20:01,160 --> 03:20:05,640
Speaker 1: brief right up of of right wing populism and extremism

3451
03:20:05,720 --> 03:20:13,720
Speaker 1: in Canada. Yep, it's fun. It's not fun. It's it's

3452
03:20:13,760 --> 03:20:17,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's upsetting um, and it's you know, it's

3453
03:20:17,160 --> 03:20:18,720
Speaker 1: a lot of the same problems we have here of

3454
03:20:18,840 --> 03:20:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, politicians really ignoring people in certain parts of

3455
03:20:22,160 --> 03:20:26,120
Speaker 1: the country which provide provide very fertile recruiting ground for

3456
03:20:26,200 --> 03:20:28,640
Speaker 1: a lot of extremists. I think it's going to all

3457
03:20:28,800 --> 03:20:33,480
Speaker 1: end well. That is our that is our that is

3458
03:20:33,520 --> 03:20:37,920
Speaker 1: our official policy that everything is going to turn out great. Yeah,

3459
03:20:38,000 --> 03:20:40,440
Speaker 1: it seems fine. I mean there's like there is actual

3460
03:20:40,520 --> 03:20:42,240
Speaker 1: ways of preventing this are happening, right, It's not it's

3461
03:20:42,360 --> 03:20:44,400
Speaker 1: it's not a hopeless thing. We can actually do it

3462
03:20:44,520 --> 03:20:47,160
Speaker 1: if we want to. Just people with power to do it,

3463
03:20:48,040 --> 03:20:51,879
Speaker 1: don't don't don't like doing it. Yeah, well and good

3464
03:20:52,720 --> 03:20:55,240
Speaker 1: that is the message of the pod, Sophie cool and good.

3465
03:20:57,480 --> 03:21:02,760
Speaker 1: So yep, that's that's Canadian fascism one cool. Um. I

3466
03:21:02,800 --> 03:21:04,640
Speaker 1: would recommend if people want to learn more about the

3467
03:21:04,840 --> 03:21:08,720
Speaker 1: Canadian uh yellow vests, check out the yellow Best Exposed

3468
03:21:08,760 --> 03:21:12,240
Speaker 1: Twitter account. Uh. There's also like there's also articles about them.

3469
03:21:12,320 --> 03:21:17,120
Speaker 1: They were a very a very good anti fascist research team. Um. Yeah,

3470
03:21:17,120 --> 03:21:18,800
Speaker 1: I would just recommend if you want to learn more

3471
03:21:18,800 --> 03:21:20,760
Speaker 1: about this the specific movement, all of their work on

3472
03:21:20,840 --> 03:21:24,640
Speaker 1: it has been great. Um. So yeah, shout out, shout

3473
03:21:24,680 --> 03:21:30,880
Speaker 1: out to Yellow Vests Exposed. That's the pod. Alright, Well

3474
03:21:31,400 --> 03:21:34,320
Speaker 1: go get your Tim Hortons and tomorrow, Yeah, I go

3475
03:21:34,400 --> 03:21:36,840
Speaker 1: get your Tim Horton's and you're I don't know, maple

3476
03:21:36,879 --> 03:21:43,440
Speaker 1: syrup and go find a moose Fozon Media or happen

3477
03:21:43,520 --> 03:21:48,320
Speaker 1: here pot on, the twits and the inst against Bye

3478
03:21:48,360 --> 03:21:59,280
Speaker 1: bye everybody, a goodbye A A adoption of teams from

3479
03:21:59,320 --> 03:22:01,840
Speaker 1: Foster Care, the topic not enough people know about, and

3480
03:22:01,959 --> 03:22:04,640
Speaker 1: we're here to change that. I'm April Dinuity, host of

3481
03:22:04,680 --> 03:22:08,520
Speaker 1: the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids.

3482
03:22:08,680 --> 03:22:12,440
Speaker 1: Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told

3483
03:22:12,480 --> 03:22:14,960
Speaker 1: by the families that lived them, with commentary from experts.

3484
03:22:15,400 --> 03:22:19,080
Speaker 1: Visit adopt us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe

3485
03:22:19,120 --> 03:22:22,440
Speaker 1: to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to

3486
03:22:22,520 --> 03:22:24,199
Speaker 1: you by the U. S Department of Health, the Human

3487
03:22:24,240 --> 03:22:27,320
Speaker 1: Services Administration for Children and Families, and the ACT Council.

3488
03:22:27,800 --> 03:22:30,800
Speaker 1: I'm Tanya Sam, host of the Money Moves Podcast powered

3489
03:22:30,840 --> 03:22:33,640
Speaker 1: by Greenwood. This daily podcast will help give you the

3490
03:22:33,760 --> 03:22:37,080
Speaker 1: keys to the Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance

3491
03:22:37,200 --> 03:22:42,160
Speaker 1: with celebrity guests like Rick Ross, Amanda Sill's, angela Ye Roland, Martin, J. B. Smooth,

3492
03:22:42,200 --> 03:22:44,400
Speaker 1: and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn

3493
03:22:44,480 --> 03:22:48,640
Speaker 1: liabilities into assets and make your money moves up, good boy.

3494
03:22:50,160 --> 03:22:52,920
Speaker 1: Subscribe to The Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on

3495
03:22:52,959 --> 03:22:55,840
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts,

3496
03:22:56,120 --> 03:23:03,760
Speaker 1: and make sure you leave a review. Hi. Hello, Nope,

3497
03:23:03,840 --> 03:23:11,520
Speaker 1: that's not it. That's it. Garrison episode has begun it

3498
03:23:11,680 --> 03:23:15,600
Speaker 1: cannot be unbegun. A let's let's roll right into it.

3499
03:23:15,680 --> 03:23:20,040
Speaker 1: Let's talk so well, welcome this says it could happen here.

3500
03:23:20,240 --> 03:23:24,400
Speaker 1: Um today the today, the here is is Canada, that

3501
03:23:24,560 --> 03:23:26,960
Speaker 1: is the that is where it could happen. Um. This

3502
03:23:27,080 --> 03:23:28,720
Speaker 1: is gonna be part two of my little deep dive

3503
03:23:29,120 --> 03:23:32,000
Speaker 1: into Canadian fascism and the far right rumblings in general

3504
03:23:32,440 --> 03:23:34,720
Speaker 1: in the Great White North. And oh god, that is

3505
03:23:34,800 --> 03:23:38,440
Speaker 1: a bad, bad nickname for Canada, the Great White North,

3506
03:23:39,400 --> 03:23:45,000
Speaker 1: not inaccurate. Did not really think that went through? Oopsie doodle.

3507
03:23:45,879 --> 03:23:51,240
Speaker 1: Maybe the Yeah, there's a good chance anyway. Um. The

3508
03:23:51,360 --> 03:23:55,520
Speaker 1: last episode we left off with the Canadian yellow vests, um,

3509
03:23:55,640 --> 03:23:58,320
Speaker 1: and you know of frightening increase in Islamophobia and anti

3510
03:23:58,320 --> 03:24:03,359
Speaker 1: immigration rhetoric around late seventeen and eighteen after Trump selection.

3511
03:24:03,920 --> 03:24:06,600
Speaker 1: And we started the last episode by talking about one

3512
03:24:06,680 --> 03:24:10,520
Speaker 1: of Canada's first fascist political parties. And we're gonna start

3513
03:24:10,640 --> 03:24:14,680
Speaker 1: part two but talking about Canada's new neo fascist political

3514
03:24:14,760 --> 03:24:17,800
Speaker 1: party that also got started inside the province of Quebec

3515
03:24:18,400 --> 03:24:21,200
Speaker 1: just like the National Unity Party did. Uh. This one

3516
03:24:21,360 --> 03:24:25,960
Speaker 1: is called the People's Party of Canada. Um. Before we

3517
03:24:26,040 --> 03:24:28,120
Speaker 1: get into the People's Party and first to give some

3518
03:24:28,200 --> 03:24:32,160
Speaker 1: background on the founder of the party, Maxine Bernier. Um.

3519
03:24:32,240 --> 03:24:34,800
Speaker 1: And that's how that's that's how I'm gonna say his name. Um,

3520
03:24:35,080 --> 03:24:39,280
Speaker 1: No one at me, it's good enough. Um. Bernair was

3521
03:24:39,360 --> 03:24:41,600
Speaker 1: born in Quebec in nineteen sixty three and is the

3522
03:24:41,720 --> 03:24:45,480
Speaker 1: son of a conservative talk radio host turned politician. Isn't

3523
03:24:45,480 --> 03:24:52,199
Speaker 1: that funny? Isn't that funny? How that keeps happening? Um? Yeah,

3524
03:24:52,320 --> 03:24:56,600
Speaker 1: So Bernair entered politics into US in six um he

3525
03:24:56,760 --> 03:24:58,800
Speaker 1: ran as the Conservative Party candidate for the House of

3526
03:24:58,959 --> 03:25:01,520
Speaker 1: Commons in the same writing district that his father had

3527
03:25:01,560 --> 03:25:05,480
Speaker 1: represented in the eighties and nineties. Stephen Harper, leader of

3528
03:25:05,520 --> 03:25:09,000
Speaker 1: the new United Conservative Party, initially wanted Maxine's father to

3529
03:25:09,120 --> 03:25:12,560
Speaker 1: re enter politics, but Bernair Senior was less keen on

3530
03:25:12,600 --> 03:25:15,960
Speaker 1: that idea, and instead told Harper that he that perhaps

3531
03:25:16,040 --> 03:25:19,560
Speaker 1: his son should run in his place. Radio and nepotism,

3532
03:25:19,879 --> 03:25:25,520
Speaker 1: radio and nepotism, yep, and politicians and yeah it is

3533
03:25:25,640 --> 03:25:28,560
Speaker 1: it is starting great. Um. So at this point Bernair

3534
03:25:28,680 --> 03:25:32,760
Speaker 1: was more like a free market libertarian, libertarian type guy,

3535
03:25:33,280 --> 03:25:35,320
Speaker 1: you know, still with some of the same like conservative

3536
03:25:35,840 --> 03:25:38,560
Speaker 1: immigration stuff that's that's common in Quebec, but he was

3537
03:25:38,640 --> 03:25:42,080
Speaker 1: more of just like a libertarian dude. Bernair easily won

3538
03:25:42,360 --> 03:25:44,880
Speaker 1: the writing writings of what we call districts here in

3539
03:25:44,959 --> 03:25:48,560
Speaker 1: the States, ranking at sixty seven percent of the popular vote,

3540
03:25:48,600 --> 03:25:52,240
Speaker 1: which was the largest majority for a Conservative politician outside

3541
03:25:52,280 --> 03:25:54,640
Speaker 1: of the province of Alberta. So he he did, he

3542
03:25:54,760 --> 03:25:57,680
Speaker 1: did very well. Bernair, who had a background in business,

3543
03:25:57,920 --> 03:26:00,800
Speaker 1: quickly rose through the ranks of the Conservative Party. Within

3544
03:26:00,879 --> 03:26:02,920
Speaker 1: the same year he was appointed to be a cabinet

3545
03:26:02,920 --> 03:26:05,720
Speaker 1: minister in the Harper government. Um and he worked as

3546
03:26:05,800 --> 03:26:08,400
Speaker 1: a as an industry minister from to us in six

3547
03:26:08,520 --> 03:26:11,160
Speaker 1: to US and seven before being promoted to a foreign

3548
03:26:11,160 --> 03:26:13,960
Speaker 1: affairs minister, and then in two thousand eleven he was

3549
03:26:14,000 --> 03:26:16,840
Speaker 1: appointed of. He was appointed as Minister of the State.

3550
03:26:18,360 --> 03:26:22,200
Speaker 1: So in in spring of sixteen, after the fifth after

3551
03:26:22,240 --> 03:26:26,040
Speaker 1: the federal election, uh Brena Air put in his bid

3552
03:26:26,200 --> 03:26:29,600
Speaker 1: to be the new elected Conservative Party leader. UM So,

3553
03:26:30,280 --> 03:26:33,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna briefly explain how Canadian elections work. You You

3554
03:26:33,400 --> 03:26:36,640
Speaker 1: don't vote for a prime minister. You vote for a

3555
03:26:36,800 --> 03:26:40,840
Speaker 1: party within your specific district if you if if your

3556
03:26:40,879 --> 03:26:43,720
Speaker 1: party wins, they get a seat in parliament. Whoever has

3557
03:26:43,760 --> 03:26:47,240
Speaker 1: the most seats in parliament, that's whose prime minister gets elected,

3558
03:26:47,440 --> 03:26:49,959
Speaker 1: so whoever is whoever is the leader of the party,

3559
03:26:50,240 --> 03:26:52,720
Speaker 1: they will be prime minister if that party gets the

3560
03:26:52,760 --> 03:26:56,200
Speaker 1: most seats. So in tow us in sixteen, burn Air

3561
03:26:56,240 --> 03:26:59,080
Speaker 1: put in his bid to be the new Conservative Party leader.

3562
03:26:59,520 --> 03:27:02,880
Speaker 1: Uh he got remarkably close to securing the spot as

3563
03:27:03,000 --> 03:27:05,680
Speaker 1: leader of the Conservatives. In the final round of voting,

3564
03:27:06,000 --> 03:27:09,119
Speaker 1: he received forty nine point zero five percent of the vote,

3565
03:27:10,040 --> 03:27:13,920
Speaker 1: losing to Saskatchewan Conservative politician Andrew Shear, who got fifty

3566
03:27:14,000 --> 03:27:18,199
Speaker 1: point nine percent, so less less than two percent difference.

3567
03:27:18,360 --> 03:27:20,640
Speaker 1: He was so close to the comic leader of the

3568
03:27:20,680 --> 03:27:26,360
Speaker 1: Conservative Party, like ridiculous. So yeah, after his extremely slight loss,

3569
03:27:26,480 --> 03:27:29,120
Speaker 1: he continued to work in Shear's Conservative Party for a

3570
03:27:29,200 --> 03:27:32,080
Speaker 1: few years. Um, if you remember from the last episode,

3571
03:27:32,120 --> 03:27:35,320
Speaker 1: Around this time was when these lamophobia and anti immigration

3572
03:27:35,400 --> 03:27:38,200
Speaker 1: talking points were starting to gain a new popularity, and

3573
03:27:38,320 --> 03:27:41,480
Speaker 1: Berner followed along with this trend. He would tweet out

3574
03:27:41,480 --> 03:27:46,040
Speaker 1: about the dangers of extreme multiculturalism and he had like

3575
03:27:46,080 --> 03:27:49,320
Speaker 1: an increasingly racist and divisive rhetoric and that kind of

3576
03:27:49,440 --> 03:27:54,560
Speaker 1: caused some drama within the Conservative establishment. So in August

3577
03:27:54,680 --> 03:27:57,680
Speaker 1: of eighteen, around the same time, the yellow vest movement

3578
03:27:57,800 --> 03:28:01,920
Speaker 1: in Canada was starting up. Berner resigned from the Conservative

3579
03:28:01,959 --> 03:28:05,279
Speaker 1: Party with the stated intention of forming a new federal

3580
03:28:05,480 --> 03:28:09,360
Speaker 1: populist far right political party. Um here here, here's a

3581
03:28:09,440 --> 03:28:12,600
Speaker 1: segment from his resignation speech and he he does talk

3582
03:28:12,640 --> 03:28:14,920
Speaker 1: in a very thick French accent. I'm not going to

3583
03:28:15,040 --> 03:28:25,840
Speaker 1: do that. Um yeah, you're you're channel the energy. Um

3584
03:28:28,920 --> 03:28:34,200
Speaker 1: that was that was just direct audio. That was instead

3585
03:28:34,240 --> 03:28:37,240
Speaker 1: of leading as a principal Conservative and defending the interests

3586
03:28:37,320 --> 03:28:41,080
Speaker 1: of Canada and Canadians. Andrew sheer is following the Trudeau Liberals.

3587
03:28:41,520 --> 03:28:43,480
Speaker 1: I was told that internal polling is showing that the

3588
03:28:43,560 --> 03:28:46,800
Speaker 1: Liberals response to Trump is popular and that in six months,

3589
03:28:46,840 --> 03:28:49,720
Speaker 1: if the polls change, the party's stand may change to

3590
03:28:50,360 --> 03:28:52,640
Speaker 1: the same thing happened in reaction to my tweets on

3591
03:28:52,760 --> 03:28:56,040
Speaker 1: diversity and multiculturalism. This is another crucial debate for the

3592
03:28:56,160 --> 03:28:58,800
Speaker 1: future of our country. Do we want to emphasize or

3593
03:28:58,840 --> 03:29:01,879
Speaker 1: ethnic and religious dif princes or exploit them to buy

3594
03:29:02,000 --> 03:29:05,080
Speaker 1: votes as the Liberals are doing, or emphasize what unites

3595
03:29:05,160 --> 03:29:08,320
Speaker 1: us and the values that can guarantee social cohesion. Just

3596
03:29:08,440 --> 03:29:11,160
Speaker 1: like other Western societies grappling with this issue. A large

3597
03:29:11,240 --> 03:29:14,080
Speaker 1: number of Canadians and certainly the vast majority of Conservatives

3598
03:29:14,320 --> 03:29:16,400
Speaker 1: are worried that we are heading in the wrong direction.

3599
03:29:16,600 --> 03:29:21,240
Speaker 1: But it's not to raise such questions. So yeah, and

3600
03:29:21,520 --> 03:29:23,520
Speaker 1: I think the honestly one of the main reasons why

3601
03:29:24,520 --> 03:29:29,240
Speaker 1: Brenaire hasn't been super successful UM is because of his

3602
03:29:29,320 --> 03:29:35,920
Speaker 1: accent like he is. It's harder for Protestant white Canadians

3603
03:29:36,280 --> 03:29:40,400
Speaker 1: to support him because he talks with a French Canadian accent. Um.

3604
03:29:40,720 --> 03:29:43,680
Speaker 1: If if if he talked in like good English, I

3605
03:29:43,800 --> 03:29:47,160
Speaker 1: think he would have he would have won Conservative leadership

3606
03:29:47,560 --> 03:29:50,280
Speaker 1: UM and his Populist party would be way more popular

3607
03:29:50,320 --> 03:29:53,720
Speaker 1: than than than it is now. So critical support to

3608
03:29:55,320 --> 03:29:59,120
Speaker 1: other French racism is preventing the racist from being racist enough. Yes,

3609
03:29:59,560 --> 03:30:04,400
Speaker 1: you love love to see it. You certainly see it.

3610
03:30:05,040 --> 03:30:08,520
Speaker 1: We do, we do see it. So Brenner faced some

3611
03:30:08,600 --> 03:30:12,200
Speaker 1: pushback from his conservative colleagues, including Stephen Harper U, of

3612
03:30:12,320 --> 03:30:14,560
Speaker 1: trying to divide the right and split the right of

3613
03:30:14,680 --> 03:30:19,160
Speaker 1: center vote. UM and some of the less socially conservative

3614
03:30:19,200 --> 03:30:22,960
Speaker 1: members of the main Conservative Party decried Berner's departure and

3615
03:30:23,000 --> 03:30:25,480
Speaker 1: subsequent New People's Party as just a plain attempt to

3616
03:30:25,560 --> 03:30:30,240
Speaker 1: pander to xenophobia and racist right wingers. But Berner went

3617
03:30:30,400 --> 03:30:32,960
Speaker 1: right to work and ran enough candidates under his new

3618
03:30:33,040 --> 03:30:36,119
Speaker 1: party to secure a spot in the federal election debates

3619
03:30:36,160 --> 03:30:39,120
Speaker 1: that were like that, you know how we watch presidential debates,

3620
03:30:39,280 --> 03:30:41,280
Speaker 1: same thing, but these have you know, multiple candidates because

3621
03:30:41,280 --> 03:30:43,640
Speaker 1: there are multiple parties, the same thing. But basically he

3622
03:30:44,440 --> 03:30:47,440
Speaker 1: was able to get in the televised debates. Um, the PPC,

3623
03:30:47,879 --> 03:30:49,480
Speaker 1: which is the People's Party of Canada. I'm just gonna

3624
03:30:49,520 --> 03:30:52,000
Speaker 1: say the PPC now because it sounds funny. Um. They

3625
03:30:52,040 --> 03:30:54,800
Speaker 1: started going viral on the internet after pictures of massive

3626
03:30:54,840 --> 03:30:58,520
Speaker 1: billboards with Brenner's face and big text that said say

3627
03:30:58,680 --> 03:31:01,720
Speaker 1: no to massimmigration. This this this guy very is this

3628
03:31:01,840 --> 03:31:07,720
Speaker 1: guy very Mimi around like these big, these big PPC billboards. Um,

3629
03:31:08,440 --> 03:31:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna read a bit from a write

3630
03:31:10,240 --> 03:31:13,360
Speaker 1: up and it's going down by some local um Montreal

3631
03:31:13,480 --> 03:31:17,720
Speaker 1: anti fascists. There have been suggestions that the PPC spokesperson

3632
03:31:17,760 --> 03:31:21,000
Speaker 1: and architect of its public relations strategy, Martin Mass, has

3633
03:31:21,040 --> 03:31:23,640
Speaker 1: been key to its embrace of the far right. Mass

3634
03:31:23,720 --> 03:31:26,960
Speaker 1: was owner of the publisher of the Capucua Libre, which

3635
03:31:27,080 --> 03:31:29,480
Speaker 1: is an online libertarian news outlet that shut down in

3636
03:31:29,920 --> 03:31:34,240
Speaker 1: six and that pp but that PPC's cozy relationship with

3637
03:31:34,360 --> 03:31:36,880
Speaker 1: racists primarily due to the influence of this one person

3638
03:31:37,040 --> 03:31:41,200
Speaker 1: is highly doubtful. However, that's the PPC is positioning itself

3639
03:31:41,360 --> 03:31:43,240
Speaker 1: as the option of choice for those who find the

3640
03:31:43,280 --> 03:31:47,240
Speaker 1: Conservative Party insufficiently right wing. Racism is clearly just one

3641
03:31:47,240 --> 03:31:50,320
Speaker 1: of the most effective tools for such a strategy, witnessing

3642
03:31:50,360 --> 03:31:54,200
Speaker 1: PPC billboards and tweets against mass immigration, also tweets about

3643
03:31:54,240 --> 03:31:58,480
Speaker 1: being against Antifa and Bernard's diet tribe about radical Islam

3644
03:31:58,560 --> 03:32:00,879
Speaker 1: being the biggest threat to freedom and peace and security

3645
03:32:00,879 --> 03:32:03,600
Speaker 1: in the world today, and how he complains about other

3646
03:32:03,720 --> 03:32:07,920
Speaker 1: parties are are complacent and pandering to Islamists, and promising

3647
03:32:07,959 --> 03:32:11,000
Speaker 1: that the PPC will make no compromise with the tolitarian ideology.

3648
03:32:11,760 --> 03:32:14,120
Speaker 1: A number of media articles have revealed the far right

3649
03:32:14,160 --> 03:32:17,800
Speaker 1: connections to people active in the PPC as organizers and

3650
03:32:17,959 --> 03:32:20,720
Speaker 1: members whose signatures were used for the PPC to gain

3651
03:32:20,840 --> 03:32:24,560
Speaker 1: official party status. Um for instance, a Derek Horne, the

3652
03:32:24,640 --> 03:32:28,320
Speaker 1: PPC volunteer and a security agent who accompanied Bernair at

3653
03:32:28,480 --> 03:32:31,200
Speaker 1: a variety of events and media interviews. He has been

3654
03:32:31,280 --> 03:32:33,680
Speaker 1: revealed to be a founding member of the neo fascist

3655
03:32:33,760 --> 03:32:36,520
Speaker 1: Canadian Nationalist Party, which we we briefly mentioned in the

3656
03:32:36,600 --> 03:32:40,760
Speaker 1: last episode. UM. Sean Walker is an American immigrant and

3657
03:32:40,920 --> 03:32:44,160
Speaker 1: organizer with the PPC in St. Catharine's UM, as well

3658
03:32:44,160 --> 03:32:45,400
Speaker 1: as one of the people who as signed on for

3659
03:32:45,440 --> 03:32:47,520
Speaker 1: PPC to be an official party. He was revealed to

3660
03:32:47,560 --> 03:32:50,160
Speaker 1: be the president of the National Alliance US based in

3661
03:32:50,200 --> 03:32:55,520
Speaker 1: the not the organization seven. He was also convicted. He

3662
03:32:55,640 --> 03:32:57,400
Speaker 1: was also convicted of hate crimes at the time for

3663
03:32:57,480 --> 03:33:00,640
Speaker 1: violence stands People of Color UM. Following these latian's Walker

3664
03:33:00,680 --> 03:33:03,760
Speaker 1: was expelled from the PPC and Bernard claimed that he'd

3665
03:33:03,760 --> 03:33:06,480
Speaker 1: slipped through the party's betting process. However, was also revealed

3666
03:33:06,560 --> 03:33:11,080
Speaker 1: that Bernar follows him on Twitter UM. Others who signed

3667
03:33:11,160 --> 03:33:12,800
Speaker 1: up for the for the PPC to be an official

3668
03:33:12,879 --> 03:33:16,400
Speaker 1: party include Janice Balch, a founding member of the Patriotic

3669
03:33:16,480 --> 03:33:22,560
Speaker 1: Europeans Against the Islamification of Accent and also Justin L. Smith,

3670
03:33:22,760 --> 03:33:25,520
Speaker 1: leader of this of the Sudbury chapter of the Soldiers

3671
03:33:25,560 --> 03:33:28,400
Speaker 1: of Odin. So a whole bunch of whole bunch of

3672
03:33:28,440 --> 03:33:31,280
Speaker 1: fascist people are working work working for the party UM

3673
03:33:31,600 --> 03:33:34,240
Speaker 1: and unsurprisingly a number of a number of candidates have

3674
03:33:34,320 --> 03:33:36,560
Speaker 1: made headlines. But there as there you know social media

3675
03:33:36,640 --> 03:33:41,199
Speaker 1: posts from the past and present have surfaced featuring like racism, islamaphobia,

3676
03:33:41,640 --> 03:33:44,400
Speaker 1: and a lot of spreading of far right conspiracy theories.

3677
03:33:44,520 --> 03:33:46,480
Speaker 1: You know that was just kind of common. There's too many,

3678
03:33:46,560 --> 03:33:49,960
Speaker 1: honestly to mention. Um. And it's it's not just that

3679
03:33:50,040 --> 03:33:51,920
Speaker 1: the PPC has a few bad apples in it. It's

3680
03:33:51,959 --> 03:33:53,879
Speaker 1: like the whole the whole party is rife with these

3681
03:33:53,959 --> 03:33:56,920
Speaker 1: kind of one of these kind of sentiments. Um. One

3682
03:33:57,040 --> 03:33:59,200
Speaker 1: gauge of this and the sign and a sign that

3683
03:33:59,280 --> 03:34:01,920
Speaker 1: like this is intentional is the as looking at the

3684
03:34:01,959 --> 03:34:04,320
Speaker 1: candidates who have left the party or have been kicked out.

3685
03:34:04,640 --> 03:34:07,240
Speaker 1: When it became clear that there would be no condemnation

3686
03:34:07,320 --> 03:34:10,280
Speaker 1: of the far right from the upper ranks, there was

3687
03:34:10,360 --> 03:34:13,920
Speaker 1: like and and justin like twenty nineteen alone, there was

3688
03:34:14,000 --> 03:34:16,920
Speaker 1: like three candidates who were who left or were either

3689
03:34:17,000 --> 03:34:20,880
Speaker 1: kicked out um because they you know, had objections to

3690
03:34:20,959 --> 03:34:24,240
Speaker 1: the racism rampant within the party. They were like complaining about, hey,

3691
03:34:24,320 --> 03:34:26,039
Speaker 1: these guys stem of racist and then they were kicked

3692
03:34:26,040 --> 03:34:28,360
Speaker 1: out of the party or or or or they left.

3693
03:34:29,040 --> 03:34:33,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's a not a good problem to have. UM.

3694
03:34:35,160 --> 03:34:37,920
Speaker 1: So in in uh, finishing up this, this little quote

3695
03:34:37,959 --> 03:34:42,160
Speaker 1: here um. Indeed, a cursory accursory look at the Facebook

3696
03:34:42,160 --> 03:34:45,240
Speaker 1: pages of PPC candidates reveals what's been really noteworthy is

3697
03:34:45,320 --> 03:34:48,879
Speaker 1: how selective the news stories about racist tweets or Facebook

3698
03:34:48,920 --> 03:34:51,800
Speaker 1: posts have been. Almost every PPC candidate in Quebec has

3699
03:34:52,040 --> 03:34:56,000
Speaker 1: recently in repeatedly shared articles from climate denialist sources, including

3700
03:34:56,040 --> 03:35:00,040
Speaker 1: many with a conspiratorial bent. A candidate for Path and

3701
03:35:00,160 --> 03:35:03,080
Speaker 1: You even produced his own YouTube expose revealing how George

3702
03:35:03,080 --> 03:35:06,440
Speaker 1: Sorrows it's behind an international global conspiracy theory to crash

3703
03:35:06,480 --> 03:35:09,800
Speaker 1: economies and make money spending a panic about climate change.

3704
03:35:10,360 --> 03:35:12,959
Speaker 1: Secondary to climate denial, there's a lot of fears around

3705
03:35:13,000 --> 03:35:16,400
Speaker 1: free speech and mass immigration, which are both recurring themes

3706
03:35:16,440 --> 03:35:19,640
Speaker 1: in the PPC candidates, and roughly one in five have

3707
03:35:19,760 --> 03:35:22,800
Speaker 1: recently shared news articles from what we would deem a

3708
03:35:22,959 --> 03:35:26,880
Speaker 1: national populist or full right sources, including less manchetz dot com,

3709
03:35:26,959 --> 03:35:29,280
Speaker 1: which is the website of the French language of the

3710
03:35:29,400 --> 03:35:34,280
Speaker 1: French language translator of the Christ Church Um Manifesto UM,

3711
03:35:34,760 --> 03:35:36,560
Speaker 1: and that that the guy who had the website is

3712
03:35:36,560 --> 03:35:39,959
Speaker 1: also involved with organizing in the Montreal in the Montreal

3713
03:35:40,120 --> 03:35:44,120
Speaker 1: chapter of the Yellow Bests. UM. Yeah. So he he

3714
03:35:44,240 --> 03:35:47,840
Speaker 1: both translated the manifesto and he's also running the Montreal

3715
03:35:48,160 --> 03:35:51,720
Speaker 1: yellowst movement. So that's fun. Um, it's not fun, it's bad, um,

3716
03:35:52,120 --> 03:35:58,400
Speaker 1: andre Pytree pipe pood Wow. So you remember, So I

3717
03:35:58,480 --> 03:36:00,720
Speaker 1: didn't learn French in Canada because I was in a

3718
03:36:00,800 --> 03:36:03,600
Speaker 1: weird Christian private school. Otherwise I could be a lot

3719
03:36:03,680 --> 03:36:09,119
Speaker 1: better at this job. But anyway, there's there's a there's

3720
03:36:09,160 --> 03:36:11,520
Speaker 1: a there's a there's just like a far right YouTube channel.

3721
03:36:12,160 --> 03:36:16,280
Speaker 1: But this guy called uh Studio who a lot of

3722
03:36:16,400 --> 03:36:18,400
Speaker 1: his stuff was shared. Um, and there's a more like

3723
03:36:18,440 --> 03:36:21,640
Speaker 1: eccentric and sporadic mix of of of other news sources

3724
03:36:21,680 --> 03:36:25,000
Speaker 1: including Unite the Right attendee Faith Goldie who also ran

3725
03:36:25,120 --> 03:36:28,080
Speaker 1: from Mayor of Toronto and got third place, UM, Quebec

3726
03:36:28,160 --> 03:36:31,600
Speaker 1: based que and On figure Alexus trudell Um, and the

3727
03:36:31,680 --> 03:36:34,640
Speaker 1: al right YouTuber black Pigeon Speaks. Of course, the main

3728
03:36:35,120 --> 03:36:38,440
Speaker 1: yellow Vest page was shared a lot, and also sources

3729
03:36:38,600 --> 03:36:42,400
Speaker 1: from the highly racist The Voice of Europe. So yeah,

3730
03:36:42,480 --> 03:36:44,960
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of a lot of not

3731
03:36:45,640 --> 03:36:49,680
Speaker 1: not great news sources being being shared by the PBC. UM.

3732
03:36:50,760 --> 03:36:53,800
Speaker 1: So that is the gist of the People's Party as

3733
03:36:54,040 --> 03:36:58,199
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen. UM overall, their performance in the election

3734
03:36:58,640 --> 03:37:01,600
Speaker 1: was kind of a flop. Uh. Bernair lost his own

3735
03:37:01,640 --> 03:37:04,680
Speaker 1: seat in Quebec. No CTC candidates got into office and

3736
03:37:04,760 --> 03:37:07,800
Speaker 1: the party only managed to get one. Uh. The party

3737
03:37:07,840 --> 03:37:09,800
Speaker 1: only managed to get one point six percent of the

3738
03:37:09,879 --> 03:37:16,039
Speaker 1: total national popular vote. So that's good. It only got

3739
03:37:16,720 --> 03:37:20,200
Speaker 1: one point six percent of all of the votes in Canada.

3740
03:37:20,680 --> 03:37:23,160
Speaker 1: So we're gonna take a break from the People's Party

3741
03:37:23,400 --> 03:37:26,080
Speaker 1: for now and we will circle back towards it um

3742
03:37:26,280 --> 03:37:29,960
Speaker 1: at the end. But after after an ad break, we

3743
03:37:30,040 --> 03:37:32,320
Speaker 1: will we will talk about the what the main Conservative

3744
03:37:32,360 --> 03:37:34,720
Speaker 1: Party was up to during this time and uh and

3745
03:37:34,920 --> 03:37:40,039
Speaker 1: a little bit after the election. So yep, and now

3746
03:37:40,120 --> 03:37:43,879
Speaker 1: the cats just blocking the whole thing. All right, we're back.

3747
03:37:44,320 --> 03:37:46,520
Speaker 1: The cat is in the bathroom. I moved my cats.

3748
03:37:46,600 --> 03:37:50,640
Speaker 1: They were blocking the camera. Hello, um, People's Party not

3749
03:37:50,800 --> 03:37:53,320
Speaker 1: doing great in the first election. That's fun. Let's see

3750
03:37:53,320 --> 03:37:55,360
Speaker 1: what the regular Conservatives are up to. I'm sure it

3751
03:37:55,480 --> 03:37:58,360
Speaker 1: was things that are just good and cool. If I

3752
03:37:58,480 --> 03:38:06,680
Speaker 1: know anything about conservative it's that they're not not hashtag problematic. Yeah.

3753
03:38:07,240 --> 03:38:10,920
Speaker 1: Just let's just got okay, So I'll just be sad

3754
03:38:11,040 --> 03:38:13,120
Speaker 1: over here and the audience can know that I'm sad

3755
03:38:13,240 --> 03:38:15,600
Speaker 1: the whole time you're talking. I would rather as episode

3756
03:38:15,600 --> 03:38:18,000
Speaker 1: me not such a not such a downer, but it's

3757
03:38:18,040 --> 03:38:19,640
Speaker 1: it's hard to make it. That is kind of an upper.

3758
03:38:20,520 --> 03:38:23,120
Speaker 1: I'll make a bargain with the audience that if they listen,

3759
03:38:23,280 --> 03:38:25,480
Speaker 1: I will I will do my French accent at least

3760
03:38:25,560 --> 03:38:28,560
Speaker 1: one more time. We'll see doing the French accent. This

3761
03:38:28,640 --> 03:38:32,800
Speaker 1: is the happiest I have seen Robert all day. He

3762
03:38:32,920 --> 03:38:36,520
Speaker 1: does look very tired. You didn't say earlier, Garrison, and

3763
03:38:36,600 --> 03:38:38,560
Speaker 1: this was very funny that you'd be better at your

3764
03:38:38,640 --> 03:38:41,720
Speaker 1: job if you could speak French. But given what we

3765
03:38:41,840 --> 03:38:44,960
Speaker 1: are here, it cools oon media. You would actually be

3766
03:38:45,120 --> 03:38:49,640
Speaker 1: much worse at your job. Um And in fact, if

3767
03:38:49,720 --> 03:38:52,720
Speaker 1: you if you were to speak French, I would I

3768
03:38:52,800 --> 03:38:56,040
Speaker 1: would fire you immediate. It's actually requirement that you can't

3769
03:38:56,080 --> 03:39:01,760
Speaker 1: pronounce things to certainly not French. There's other languages you're

3770
03:39:01,800 --> 03:39:04,120
Speaker 1: allowed to know how to pronounce, but not French. No

3771
03:39:04,360 --> 03:39:13,480
Speaker 1: oblo francie. So let's pick up right after Maxine Bernair

3772
03:39:13,600 --> 03:39:19,120
Speaker 1: lost the Conservative leadership to Andrew Sheer in Um. Sheer

3773
03:39:19,280 --> 03:39:22,560
Speaker 1: won the leadership on a on on like a platform

3774
03:39:22,600 --> 03:39:26,879
Speaker 1: of classical financial conservatism and a slightly more socially moderate

3775
03:39:26,959 --> 03:39:30,200
Speaker 1: platform UM. When Sheer got into office, though, one of

3776
03:39:30,240 --> 03:39:32,720
Speaker 1: the things he faced criticism for, even among the Conservative

3777
03:39:32,760 --> 03:39:36,640
Speaker 1: caucus was his association with a little media with was

3778
03:39:36,680 --> 03:39:40,279
Speaker 1: his association with a little media outlet called Rebel Media.

3779
03:39:42,000 --> 03:39:47,320
Speaker 1: Yeah so most most listeners may not know what rebel

3780
03:39:47,360 --> 03:39:50,280
Speaker 1: media is, but you've certainly seen their stuff or felt

3781
03:39:50,320 --> 03:39:53,400
Speaker 1: their effect. Yeah, it's like the rough draft of bright

3782
03:39:53,480 --> 03:39:58,520
Speaker 1: Bart And also Canadian and Canadian, Yes so Canadian? Uh

3783
03:39:58,680 --> 03:40:01,879
Speaker 1: so Rebel mead as a Canadian far right neo fascist

3784
03:40:01,920 --> 03:40:05,680
Speaker 1: propaganda outlet's turn that has a lot of a lot

3785
03:40:05,760 --> 03:40:12,600
Speaker 1: of bright bardy vibes. Umbel Media, Yeah, bright Bartesque. Rebel

3786
03:40:12,640 --> 03:40:16,040
Speaker 1: Media hosts and contributors have included a white nationalist and

3787
03:40:16,080 --> 03:40:19,560
Speaker 1: white genocide proponent Laurence Southern UM and Proud Boy founder

3788
03:40:19,640 --> 03:40:24,880
Speaker 1: Gavin McGinnis UM. McGinnis produced a quote satirical video for

3789
03:40:24,959 --> 03:40:30,640
Speaker 1: Rebel called ten Things I Hate about the Jews. Yeah,

3790
03:40:31,760 --> 03:40:34,840
Speaker 1: yeah so, and and it's and it is worth noting

3791
03:40:34,879 --> 03:40:38,680
Speaker 1: that both Southern and McGinnis are Canadian. Um. They're actually

3792
03:40:38,920 --> 03:40:42,320
Speaker 1: a lot of alter right figures that are Canadian. Of course,

3793
03:40:42,360 --> 03:40:45,120
Speaker 1: we have we have Lauren Southern Gavin McGinnis. Um, we

3794
03:40:45,240 --> 03:40:48,360
Speaker 1: have Stephen Crowder, uh, Stefan malin you and of course

3795
03:40:48,440 --> 03:40:51,360
Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson. All of those people are are Canadian and

3796
03:40:51,480 --> 03:40:56,959
Speaker 1: most of the most of them still live in Canada. Yes,

3797
03:40:57,040 --> 03:41:00,800
Speaker 1: he's still alive. Made he made it. And same tweet

3798
03:41:00,840 --> 03:41:05,640
Speaker 1: the other day. God, he made the most tweet. That

3799
03:41:05,720 --> 03:41:09,360
Speaker 1: tweet made it all worthwhile. Baby, he got everyone to

3800
03:41:09,400 --> 03:41:11,760
Speaker 1: go check his Twitter feed. It is amazing. You can

3801
03:41:12,000 --> 03:41:15,160
Speaker 1: you can hear his brain shorting out when you read

3802
03:41:15,240 --> 03:41:20,040
Speaker 1: that tweet, Like you need to find the tweet it is.

3803
03:41:20,160 --> 03:41:22,800
Speaker 1: It is just it is the most beautiful piece of

3804
03:41:22,920 --> 03:41:26,119
Speaker 1: poetry of everywhere. It's like somebody taught a stroke out

3805
03:41:26,160 --> 03:41:32,600
Speaker 1: of type. It makes no sense. God, it's so good. Um,

3806
03:41:33,800 --> 03:41:36,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote an article by a Global News

3807
03:41:36,360 --> 03:41:39,680
Speaker 1: dot c a on Andrew Sheer and Rebel media. Quote.

3808
03:41:39,879 --> 03:41:42,520
Speaker 1: Despite a string of controversies faced by Canadian right wing

3809
03:41:42,640 --> 03:41:45,560
Speaker 1: media outlet of the Rebel, including allegations of downplaying the

3810
03:41:45,600 --> 03:41:49,480
Speaker 1: Holocaust movie minted, Conservative Party leader Andrew Shear has so

3811
03:41:49,560 --> 03:41:51,720
Speaker 1: far continued to make himself available to the company that

3812
03:41:51,840 --> 03:41:56,120
Speaker 1: other prominent conservative politicians have criticized for its controversial reporting

3813
03:41:56,160 --> 03:42:00,320
Speaker 1: and activism. Shears campaign organization also has a direct nection

3814
03:42:00,360 --> 03:42:03,640
Speaker 1: to The Rebel. His campaign manager, Hamish Marshall, is listed

3815
03:42:03,680 --> 03:42:07,080
Speaker 1: as a director of the company's federal incorporation records, which

3816
03:42:07,120 --> 03:42:09,720
Speaker 1: show its most recent annual gathering meeting was in February

3817
03:42:09,840 --> 03:42:13,119
Speaker 1: this year. Following the leadership election in Toronto on Saturday,

3818
03:42:13,280 --> 03:42:15,400
Speaker 1: Sheer granted one on one interviews with a handful of

3819
03:42:15,440 --> 03:42:18,360
Speaker 1: major media organizations, including a face to face interview with

3820
03:42:18,480 --> 03:42:22,879
Speaker 1: The Rebels Ottawa correspondent Brian Lily. Prior to his convention interview.

3821
03:42:23,320 --> 03:42:25,760
Speaker 1: Sheer appeared on The Rebel in February in a studio

3822
03:42:25,800 --> 03:42:29,440
Speaker 1: interview with host Faith Goldie on her show on the Hunt.

3823
03:42:30,160 --> 03:42:32,760
Speaker 1: At the end of the discussion, Goldie asked Sheer if

3824
03:42:32,920 --> 03:42:34,520
Speaker 1: if he would agree to go on a duck hunting

3825
03:42:34,520 --> 03:42:37,680
Speaker 1: trip with her after after he wins the leadership on

3826
03:42:37,879 --> 03:42:41,920
Speaker 1: Canada Day, which he agreed to. UM. We briefly mentioned

3827
03:42:42,000 --> 03:42:44,440
Speaker 1: Faith Goldie earlier in her connection to the People's Party

3828
03:42:44,840 --> 03:42:48,000
Speaker 1: UM and her brief campaign for the Toronto mayor, but

3829
03:42:48,400 --> 03:42:51,680
Speaker 1: here's some more background on her UM and her coverage

3830
03:42:51,800 --> 03:42:53,840
Speaker 1: and her coverage of the Unite the Right rally for

3831
03:42:54,160 --> 03:42:58,800
Speaker 1: Rebel media. Quoting from Winnipeg Free Press. In the course

3832
03:42:58,879 --> 03:43:01,920
Speaker 1: of her dispatches, Goldie argued the events in the Charlottesville

3833
03:43:02,000 --> 03:43:05,400
Speaker 1: were evidence of a rising white racial consciousness that was

3834
03:43:05,480 --> 03:43:08,560
Speaker 1: going to change the political landscape in America. She also

3835
03:43:08,600 --> 03:43:12,040
Speaker 1: wanted to she's actually not wrong there. That was. Yeah,

3836
03:43:12,160 --> 03:43:15,120
Speaker 1: she's not wrong, but I think she's incorrect. She's on

3837
03:43:15,200 --> 03:43:17,200
Speaker 1: the other side of the island. And whether this is

3838
03:43:17,280 --> 03:43:20,640
Speaker 1: a good or bad thing. Yeah. She went to great

3839
03:43:20,720 --> 03:43:25,040
Speaker 1: lengths to laud the twenty point Meta political Manifesto composed

3840
03:43:25,120 --> 03:43:28,359
Speaker 1: by White National's leader Richard Spencer, a document that includes

3841
03:43:28,400 --> 03:43:31,800
Speaker 1: calls to organize U states along ethnic and racial divides

3842
03:43:32,640 --> 03:43:36,560
Speaker 1: and celebrates the superiority of white America faith. Goldie describes

3843
03:43:36,600 --> 03:43:41,200
Speaker 1: Spencer's manifesto as robust and well thought out. Goldie was

3844
03:43:41,360 --> 03:43:45,640
Speaker 1: fired by Rebel in mid August seventeen, but not due

3845
03:43:45,680 --> 03:43:48,400
Speaker 1: to her participation in Unite the Right. She was fired

3846
03:43:48,480 --> 03:43:52,520
Speaker 1: for appearing on a Daily Stormer podcast to discussing the right.

3847
03:43:54,080 --> 03:43:57,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, that's that's fine, So yeah, fine, nice

3848
03:43:58,000 --> 03:44:02,800
Speaker 1: to have her. Interviewing Conservative of leader Andrew Sheer asked

3849
03:44:02,840 --> 03:44:05,240
Speaker 1: for his reaction to Unite the Right and Rebel media

3850
03:44:05,720 --> 03:44:09,959
Speaker 1: um after what happened in Charlotte'sville in seventeen. Sheer, who

3851
03:44:10,040 --> 03:44:13,160
Speaker 1: had previously been interviewed by Rebel multiple times UH, finally

3852
03:44:13,280 --> 03:44:15,920
Speaker 1: disavowed the outlets, saying, look, I believe there's a fine

3853
03:44:16,000 --> 03:44:18,680
Speaker 1: line between covering events and giving a platform to groups

3854
03:44:18,680 --> 03:44:21,280
Speaker 1: who are promoting a violent, disgusting point of view. I

3855
03:44:21,320 --> 03:44:25,360
Speaker 1: won't be granting interviews going forward. So that's nice that

3856
03:44:25,440 --> 03:44:27,720
Speaker 1: it took someone dying in Charlotte's Ville to realize that

3857
03:44:27,720 --> 03:44:32,040
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't talk to the fascist media source. Um So,

3858
03:44:32,440 --> 03:44:35,520
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of Unite the Right, the mainstream conservatives

3859
03:44:35,720 --> 03:44:38,800
Speaker 1: kind of had to tread carefully around social issues because

3860
03:44:38,879 --> 03:44:40,800
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, yeah, they're there's still not seas we

3861
03:44:40,920 --> 03:44:43,879
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't be pandering to them. Um But as more

3862
03:44:44,080 --> 03:44:47,040
Speaker 1: time of distance let the air cool, some conservatives went

3863
03:44:47,160 --> 03:44:50,520
Speaker 1: back to the same old rhetoric around the twenty nineteen election. UM.

3864
03:44:50,840 --> 03:44:55,640
Speaker 1: For instance, in his twenty nineteen election campaign, UH Tom Chemick,

3865
03:44:55,959 --> 03:44:59,160
Speaker 1: the parliamentary representative of one of the parliamentary representatives for

3866
03:44:59,280 --> 03:45:02,800
Speaker 1: Calgary l Berta, wrote out and spread flyers with the

3867
03:45:02,840 --> 03:45:06,040
Speaker 1: all claps with the all caps header of crisis at

3868
03:45:06,080 --> 03:45:10,320
Speaker 1: the Border with text treating their constituent. The Independent Auditor

3869
03:45:10,400 --> 03:45:13,160
Speaker 1: General of Canada has published a scathing report confirming that

3870
03:45:13,240 --> 03:45:16,480
Speaker 1: the Ottawa Liberals have failed to safely and responsibly manage

3871
03:45:16,520 --> 03:45:19,840
Speaker 1: Canada's borders. Since Justin Trudeau you responsibly tweeted out that

3872
03:45:19,879 --> 03:45:22,600
Speaker 1: Canada would open Sportis to anyone seeking entry, the number

3873
03:45:22,640 --> 03:45:24,920
Speaker 1: of people illegally crossing the boarder into Canada from the

3874
03:45:25,000 --> 03:45:27,720
Speaker 1: United States has surged past one thousand a month, with

3875
03:45:27,800 --> 03:45:32,199
Speaker 1: almost twenty thou people illegally enteringen alone, and while speaking

3876
03:45:32,240 --> 03:45:35,080
Speaker 1: to voters of Connect repeatedly insisted that all the problems

3877
03:45:35,120 --> 03:45:38,320
Speaker 1: of people illegally crossing the Canadian border isn't a symptom

3878
03:45:38,360 --> 03:45:40,920
Speaker 1: of a failure of systems to respond to a growing crisis,

3879
03:45:41,280 --> 03:45:44,200
Speaker 1: but merely a failure for border patrol to to assert

3880
03:45:44,280 --> 03:45:49,000
Speaker 1: control over people. UM quotes and flyer courtesy of About

3881
03:45:49,080 --> 03:45:52,920
Speaker 1: This Tom chemic Guy. A courtesy of a. Dan Olson

3882
03:45:53,000 --> 03:45:56,600
Speaker 1: of Folding Ideas. He's a great Canadian documentarian who released

3883
03:45:56,640 --> 03:45:59,160
Speaker 1: a magnificent piece on Q and on and conspiracy theories

3884
03:45:59,240 --> 03:46:03,000
Speaker 1: last year on his YouTube channel of Folding Ideas. Overall,

3885
03:46:03,400 --> 03:46:06,120
Speaker 1: I really really like Dan. He makes very good stuff.

3886
03:46:06,600 --> 03:46:09,360
Speaker 1: UM So thank thank you to him for sending me

3887
03:46:10,000 --> 03:46:14,520
Speaker 1: those those those flyers. Um. Anyway, during the election, sheer

3888
03:46:14,600 --> 03:46:17,120
Speaker 1: led the Conservatives to gain a total of twenty six

3889
03:46:17,280 --> 03:46:21,600
Speaker 1: seats in the party inside Parliament, going from nive up

3890
03:46:21,680 --> 03:46:24,879
Speaker 1: to one hundred and twenty one. But they did finish

3891
03:46:25,120 --> 03:46:28,880
Speaker 1: thirty six seats behind the Liberals despite beating the Liberals

3892
03:46:28,959 --> 03:46:32,040
Speaker 1: and the popular vote by one three percent. So that

3893
03:46:32,200 --> 03:46:34,600
Speaker 1: was a thirty four point four percent for Conservatives and

3894
03:46:34,680 --> 03:46:37,039
Speaker 1: thirty three point one percent of the popular vote for Liberals.

3895
03:46:37,280 --> 03:46:39,120
Speaker 1: The margin was just over like two hundred and forty

3896
03:46:39,160 --> 03:46:42,000
Speaker 1: thousand votes. Um. The Liberals lost twenty seats in the

3897
03:46:42,040 --> 03:46:45,360
Speaker 1: election and the NDP lost fifteen seats. And this was

3898
03:46:45,400 --> 03:46:49,280
Speaker 1: the first time since uh since nineteen seventy nine that

3899
03:46:49,360 --> 03:46:52,040
Speaker 1: a party won the most seats without also winning the

3900
03:46:52,080 --> 03:46:55,760
Speaker 1: popular vote. Um. What what pushed the Conservatives over on

3901
03:46:55,840 --> 03:46:58,440
Speaker 1: the popular vote was due to you know, extremely high

3902
03:46:58,480 --> 03:47:03,199
Speaker 1: conservative turnout in uh in in in various in various writings.

3903
03:47:03,240 --> 03:47:06,160
Speaker 1: So basically more Conservatives voted instant runnings and they usually

3904
03:47:06,200 --> 03:47:08,720
Speaker 1: do so even if the Liberals still win the district,

3905
03:47:08,760 --> 03:47:11,480
Speaker 1: there was still more conservative votes to be counted. Um.

3906
03:47:12,440 --> 03:47:15,400
Speaker 1: And also they basically swept the Prairie provinces of Alberta

3907
03:47:15,440 --> 03:47:17,880
Speaker 1: and Saskatchewan, where they won seventy of the vote in

3908
03:47:17,959 --> 03:47:22,000
Speaker 1: sixties five percent of the vote, respectively. But their victories

3909
03:47:22,040 --> 03:47:24,920
Speaker 1: in those states and their higher turnout did not convert

3910
03:47:24,959 --> 03:47:28,080
Speaker 1: into many seats because the less population dense areas have

3911
03:47:28,160 --> 03:47:32,040
Speaker 1: fewer federal writings and fewer available seats UM, and the

3912
03:47:32,600 --> 03:47:36,200
Speaker 1: Liberals had to rely heavily for seats in Ontario, the

3913
03:47:36,320 --> 03:47:40,119
Speaker 1: you know, the most populous province that include cities like Toronto, UM,

3914
03:47:40,200 --> 03:47:42,800
Speaker 1: and you know other a few other big cities. So

3915
03:47:43,520 --> 03:47:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, Canada doesn't have the most democratic system like

3916
03:47:46,320 --> 03:47:48,280
Speaker 1: so the same way you know in the States were

3917
03:47:48,320 --> 03:47:51,280
Speaker 1: familiar with, you know, people losing popular votes um but

3918
03:47:51,400 --> 03:47:53,800
Speaker 1: still getting elected president and stuff. You know, in Canada's

3919
03:47:53,800 --> 03:47:55,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a little bit different because of how

3920
03:47:55,760 --> 03:47:58,879
Speaker 1: you vote for parties in your own little district. UM.

3921
03:47:59,320 --> 03:48:00,920
Speaker 1: But you know, it's still not perfect, right because like

3922
03:48:01,280 --> 03:48:03,800
Speaker 1: it is. It it does feel weird for the leader

3923
03:48:03,959 --> 03:48:06,480
Speaker 1: of the leader of the country to not have his

3924
03:48:06,560 --> 03:48:08,440
Speaker 1: part do not have also won the popular vote because

3925
03:48:08,480 --> 03:48:10,800
Speaker 1: of how you know, districts work out and how higher

3926
03:48:10,840 --> 03:48:13,040
Speaker 1: turn out in some areas doesn't mean that it's going

3927
03:48:13,080 --> 03:48:16,119
Speaker 1: to have more seats. Um. You know. But the other

3928
03:48:16,240 --> 03:48:19,720
Speaker 1: side of things here is that like Canada also doesn't

3929
03:48:19,720 --> 03:48:22,400
Speaker 1: have ranked choice, so like, still the majority of people

3930
03:48:22,480 --> 03:48:24,680
Speaker 1: voted for left of center candidates if you include you know,

3931
03:48:24,800 --> 03:48:27,400
Speaker 1: the Green Party, the n DP, and the Liberals. So

3932
03:48:27,560 --> 03:48:29,680
Speaker 1: even the Liberals lost the popular vote, there's still like

3933
03:48:29,720 --> 03:48:32,600
Speaker 1: a majority left of center voting. So if they if

3934
03:48:32,640 --> 03:48:34,959
Speaker 1: they had ranked choice, maybe the results would have been different.

3935
03:48:35,240 --> 03:48:39,000
Speaker 1: So Canada's system, it definitely is, I'm perfect for how

3936
03:48:39,120 --> 03:48:42,720
Speaker 1: they do elections. Um. I would I would prefer ranked choice,

3937
03:48:42,760 --> 03:48:45,240
Speaker 1: as you know, basically basically I would prefer that for

3938
03:48:45,280 --> 03:48:48,240
Speaker 1: like every country if they're gonna have elections. Um. So yeah,

3939
03:48:48,320 --> 03:48:50,640
Speaker 1: just kind of explaining why they can lose the popular

3940
03:48:50,720 --> 03:48:54,560
Speaker 1: vote but still you know, still win a majority controlling government. Um.

3941
03:48:55,400 --> 03:48:58,400
Speaker 1: So after the election, Sheer announced he was resigning as

3942
03:48:58,440 --> 03:49:01,400
Speaker 1: head of the Conservatives in December twenty nineteen. Uh. This

3943
03:49:01,560 --> 03:49:03,280
Speaker 1: was after it was revealed that he had used party

3944
03:49:03,360 --> 03:49:07,360
Speaker 1: funds for his children's own private schooling. So good for him. Um,

3945
03:49:08,240 --> 03:49:10,800
Speaker 1: A new bid for Conservative leadership went into effect. We're

3946
03:49:10,800 --> 03:49:14,120
Speaker 1: gonna mainly focus on two candidates here. Uh. There was

3947
03:49:14,200 --> 03:49:18,240
Speaker 1: an erin O'Toole and Derek Solan Um. O'tool fancies himself

3948
03:49:18,280 --> 03:49:20,760
Speaker 1: as another kind of like classic financial conservative and a

3949
03:49:20,880 --> 03:49:24,720
Speaker 1: social moderate. He feels more like the old progressive conservative

3950
03:49:24,760 --> 03:49:26,600
Speaker 1: candidates from back before the two of us in three

3951
03:49:26,920 --> 03:49:29,800
Speaker 1: Unite the Right merger. Um we got some like John

3952
03:49:29,880 --> 03:49:33,800
Speaker 1: McCain vibes here, um, but Derek solan is more similar

3953
03:49:33,880 --> 03:49:36,200
Speaker 1: to the farther right parts of the U s IS

3954
03:49:36,280 --> 03:49:42,800
Speaker 1: current Republican Party, like anti abortion, anti LGBT, racist tweets, etcetera. Um.

3955
03:49:43,080 --> 03:49:46,760
Speaker 1: But as a whole, Solon's extremism was rejected by the

3956
03:49:46,840 --> 03:49:49,760
Speaker 1: Canadian Conservatives. Um he got only he got like only fourth.

3957
03:49:49,840 --> 03:49:51,960
Speaker 1: He got fourth placed with fifteen percent of the vote

3958
03:49:52,240 --> 03:49:55,560
Speaker 1: during the first round of voting, UM and ultimately o'tool

3959
03:49:55,640 --> 03:49:59,720
Speaker 1: one leadership after three rounds of votes. UM and o'tool

3960
03:49:59,800 --> 03:50:02,800
Speaker 1: now has the has the new challenge of trying to

3961
03:50:02,960 --> 03:50:06,720
Speaker 1: appeal to the Canadian conservatives more moderate wing, as well

3962
03:50:06,800 --> 03:50:09,760
Speaker 1: as the more Trumpian wing that's developed the past few years.

3963
03:50:10,400 --> 03:50:14,040
Speaker 1: He's been relatively successful in crafting like a boring, polite

3964
03:50:14,200 --> 03:50:18,000
Speaker 1: Canadian version of Trump's nationalism, with slogans like Canada First

3965
03:50:18,080 --> 03:50:21,440
Speaker 1: and take Canada Back. Um, you know, despite supporting trade

3966
03:50:21,520 --> 03:50:25,560
Speaker 1: deals outsourcing Canadian jobs to cheaper overseas markets, because they

3967
03:50:25,680 --> 03:50:29,360
Speaker 1: never actually mean what they say. UM and the and

3968
03:50:29,480 --> 03:50:32,240
Speaker 1: As the Liberals have grown more aware of Canada's bloody

3969
03:50:32,320 --> 03:50:34,800
Speaker 1: history and have like toned down the red and white

3970
03:50:34,840 --> 03:50:38,560
Speaker 1: maple leaf patriotism, the Conservative Party under o'tool has seized

3971
03:50:38,600 --> 03:50:41,280
Speaker 1: on this opportunity to make Canadian patriotism more of a

3972
03:50:41,440 --> 03:50:44,320
Speaker 1: right leaning staple, just like patriotism is, you know, it's

3973
03:50:44,320 --> 03:50:45,760
Speaker 1: more of like a right wing thing in the States.

3974
03:50:46,360 --> 03:50:49,880
Speaker 1: So basically, after we were like, oh yeah, residential schools

3975
03:50:49,920 --> 03:50:52,360
Speaker 1: were bad, Canada's kind of sucked up, liberals are like, Okay,

3976
03:50:52,400 --> 03:50:55,200
Speaker 1: we maybe shouldn't be so we shouldn't be waving our

3977
03:50:55,560 --> 03:50:58,240
Speaker 1: maple leaf flags everywhere. Maybe we're not a perfect country.

3978
03:50:58,560 --> 03:51:01,000
Speaker 1: The Conservatives like, no, you have be proud to be Canadian.

3979
03:51:01,080 --> 03:51:03,960
Speaker 1: So they've kind of taken patriotism to be their new thing. Well,

3980
03:51:04,040 --> 03:51:05,720
Speaker 1: previously it was much more of like a liberal thing.

3981
03:51:06,400 --> 03:51:09,720
Speaker 1: The Islamophobia and overt religious bigotry under a tool has

3982
03:51:09,760 --> 03:51:12,480
Speaker 1: been slightly trimmed down. UM and climate change has at

3983
03:51:12,560 --> 03:51:16,040
Speaker 1: least been mentioned as existing UM, but there has also

3984
03:51:16,120 --> 03:51:19,000
Speaker 1: been increased discussion on trying to hack down Canada's healthcare

3985
03:51:19,080 --> 03:51:23,040
Speaker 1: and privatize more aspects of it. Which, yeah, good job, guys,

3986
03:51:23,120 --> 03:51:28,160
Speaker 1: take away the only good part of Canada. Um like Uh.

3987
03:51:29,000 --> 03:51:31,800
Speaker 1: The province of Alberta under Jason Kenny has done this

3988
03:51:31,880 --> 03:51:34,840
Speaker 1: to a disastrous effect, um, raising the cost of medical

3989
03:51:34,920 --> 03:51:38,840
Speaker 1: care for lower class people, many of whom voted Conservative. UM.

3990
03:51:39,040 --> 03:51:41,240
Speaker 1: I have family in Alberta and just the past five

3991
03:51:41,320 --> 03:51:44,680
Speaker 1: years the changes to the healthcare system there has been horrible. UM,

3992
03:51:44,760 --> 03:51:48,040
Speaker 1: it's not it's not great. So basically what what what

3993
03:51:48,120 --> 03:51:50,200
Speaker 1: old Tool wants is he he wants he wants to

3994
03:51:50,520 --> 03:51:52,520
Speaker 1: just privatize more elements of it. He has a specific

3995
03:51:52,640 --> 03:51:55,200
Speaker 1: term he uses like. He wants like a. He wants

3996
03:51:55,200 --> 03:51:57,480
Speaker 1: to like split the FED like the like the taxpayer

3997
03:51:57,560 --> 03:51:59,600
Speaker 1: healthcare and privatize health care into two sections that you

3998
03:51:59,600 --> 03:52:02,160
Speaker 1: can choos which one to join in. Anyway, it's silly.

3999
03:52:02,760 --> 03:52:06,880
Speaker 1: Um O'Toole did take a wee little stance to distance

4000
03:52:07,000 --> 03:52:09,200
Speaker 1: himself from the more extreme wings of his party when

4001
03:52:09,240 --> 03:52:12,480
Speaker 1: he decided to remove MP Derek Solan from the caucus.

4002
03:52:13,320 --> 03:52:15,080
Speaker 1: Oh Tool announced that Solan will not be allowed to

4003
03:52:15,160 --> 03:52:17,720
Speaker 1: run as a candidate for the for the Conservative Party

4004
03:52:17,720 --> 03:52:21,000
Speaker 1: in the next election either, saying racism is a disease

4005
03:52:21,040 --> 03:52:23,440
Speaker 1: of the soul, repugnance to our core values. It has

4006
03:52:23,480 --> 03:52:25,080
Speaker 1: no place in our country and has no place in

4007
03:52:25,120 --> 03:52:28,120
Speaker 1: the Conservative Party of Canada. I won't tolerate it. Um.

4008
03:52:28,280 --> 03:52:30,760
Speaker 1: Also last year, O'Toole refused to say whether he thinks

4009
03:52:30,840 --> 03:52:36,680
Speaker 1: systemic racism exists. UM. But the decision to remove Soland

4010
03:52:36,880 --> 03:52:39,560
Speaker 1: was made after it was revealed that he accepted the

4011
03:52:39,600 --> 03:52:44,840
Speaker 1: donation from the Canadian Nazi Paul from during uh during

4012
03:52:44,880 --> 03:52:48,160
Speaker 1: Soland's bid for a Conservative leadership back in the nineties

4013
03:52:48,280 --> 03:52:50,480
Speaker 1: of From was a figurehead of the Canadian far right movement,

4014
03:52:50,800 --> 03:52:54,360
Speaker 1: appearing at Heritage Front rallies and also caught on video

4015
03:52:54,400 --> 03:52:57,320
Speaker 1: at a party celebrating Hitler's birthday, which he lost his

4016
03:52:57,400 --> 03:53:02,720
Speaker 1: high school teaching job over. Sol. Look, it's just polite

4017
03:53:02,800 --> 03:53:05,520
Speaker 1: to celebrate a guy's birthday, you know, whether or not

4018
03:53:05,720 --> 03:53:12,600
Speaker 1: he's Hitler, under no circumstances. Do you got us? This

4019
03:53:13,320 --> 03:53:18,520
Speaker 1: is a hot tike um. So there has been a

4020
03:53:18,560 --> 03:53:19,840
Speaker 1: bit of the There has been a bit of a

4021
03:53:19,960 --> 03:53:23,360
Speaker 1: rift in the Conservative Party over how much Trumpian rhetoric

4022
03:53:23,440 --> 03:53:26,760
Speaker 1: should be allowed in the Canadian Conservative Party. UM. And

4023
03:53:26,880 --> 03:53:30,800
Speaker 1: this kind of rift has definitely increased after January six. UM.

4024
03:53:31,160 --> 03:53:34,080
Speaker 1: The problem for Conservative politicians is that to win elections

4025
03:53:34,120 --> 03:53:36,720
Speaker 1: they need to appeal to the largest swath of voters

4026
03:53:37,240 --> 03:53:40,600
Speaker 1: UM and that includes more socially conservative and increasingly far

4027
03:53:40,760 --> 03:53:43,720
Speaker 1: right rule folks. But if they go too far, they'll

4028
03:53:43,760 --> 03:53:45,840
Speaker 1: lose the moderates to the Liberal Party. So you have

4029
03:53:45,880 --> 03:53:47,840
Speaker 1: to it's like this delicate balance but to kind of

4030
03:53:47,880 --> 03:53:50,400
Speaker 1: give you like an overview of what the current state

4031
03:53:50,440 --> 03:53:53,840
Speaker 1: of the Conservative of like votership is UM for and

4032
03:53:53,960 --> 03:53:56,520
Speaker 1: tent of the Conservative Party of Canada members. So you know,

4033
03:53:56,600 --> 03:53:58,520
Speaker 1: people signed up to vote in the party. You know,

4034
03:53:59,320 --> 03:54:02,280
Speaker 1: regular people UM four in ten would say that they

4035
03:54:02,320 --> 03:54:04,800
Speaker 1: would have voted for Trump. For intents say that they

4036
03:54:04,880 --> 03:54:08,680
Speaker 1: think Democrats told the presential election, and for intens say

4037
03:54:08,720 --> 03:54:13,280
Speaker 1: that the Conservative and four intent believe that the January

4038
03:54:13,360 --> 03:54:16,200
Speaker 1: six riot was staged or was done by the Democrats,

4039
03:54:16,240 --> 03:54:19,560
Speaker 1: are done by Antiva. So that's kind of the state

4040
03:54:19,640 --> 03:54:22,680
Speaker 1: of the Conservative Party in Canada for like the for

4041
03:54:22,760 --> 03:54:25,400
Speaker 1: the voters. So you know, politicians have to kind of

4042
03:54:25,600 --> 03:54:27,200
Speaker 1: in order to win, they need they need still still

4043
03:54:27,360 --> 03:54:29,760
Speaker 1: still need to appeal to those people, but they don't

4044
03:54:30,000 --> 03:54:33,320
Speaker 1: want to do that thing. Usually like they usually don't

4045
03:54:33,360 --> 03:54:36,680
Speaker 1: like usually there the like a big talking point is

4046
03:54:36,760 --> 03:54:40,120
Speaker 1: like rejecting the divisive politics of the of of the

4047
03:54:40,240 --> 03:54:42,120
Speaker 1: of the United States. Like that's a big thing people

4048
03:54:42,160 --> 03:54:44,640
Speaker 1: say in Canada. Is that like they don't want it

4049
03:54:44,680 --> 03:54:47,320
Speaker 1: to become like, you know, like a fighting match, because

4050
03:54:47,320 --> 03:54:50,400
Speaker 1: like the other main difference between Canada's elections in American's

4051
03:54:50,400 --> 03:54:53,320
Speaker 1: elections is like America is like always an election season,

4052
03:54:53,600 --> 03:54:55,840
Speaker 1: right like every you know, even after each election, it's

4053
03:54:55,880 --> 03:54:58,560
Speaker 1: like you feel like campaigns start right up again. Um,

4054
03:54:58,960 --> 03:55:02,360
Speaker 1: Canada's campaigns only run like a few months before the election, Like,

4055
03:55:02,520 --> 03:55:05,640
Speaker 1: like it is not like those things you guys do

4056
03:55:05,720 --> 03:55:08,160
Speaker 1: objectively better than us, and a lot of the world does.

4057
03:55:08,200 --> 03:55:10,480
Speaker 1: It's not just Canada. The idea that like, oh, elections

4058
03:55:10,480 --> 03:55:13,840
Speaker 1: are terrible, we should spend a little time. It's like

4059
03:55:14,360 --> 03:55:16,800
Speaker 1: to like two or three months of campaigning. That's it,

4060
03:55:16,920 --> 03:55:19,200
Speaker 1: Like it's not it's not like a two year, four

4061
03:55:19,280 --> 03:55:21,400
Speaker 1: year thing. No, that is a thing that we should.

4062
03:55:21,400 --> 03:55:24,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely the election should be about eleven minutes from from

4063
03:55:24,720 --> 03:55:27,760
Speaker 1: the start of the campaign to the vote. Everybody gets

4064
03:55:27,800 --> 03:55:31,240
Speaker 1: a minute to explain their their politics and then we

4065
03:55:31,400 --> 03:55:34,400
Speaker 1: vote and then we throw them into the sea. Yeah,

4066
03:55:35,600 --> 03:55:38,960
Speaker 1: so trying to trying to craft marketing to the divided

4067
03:55:39,040 --> 03:55:41,320
Speaker 1: right wing. It's been interesting to watch. You know, there's

4068
03:55:41,360 --> 03:55:44,080
Speaker 1: like videos about Tool walking through you know, downtowns with

4069
03:55:44,200 --> 03:55:47,120
Speaker 1: Pride flags in the background and you know, featuring visible

4070
03:55:47,200 --> 03:55:50,000
Speaker 1: like minority Canadians intermingling. But then you also have a

4071
03:55:50,080 --> 03:55:53,160
Speaker 1: tool like Ralely against cancel culture feeling suggestions that the

4072
03:55:53,680 --> 03:55:56,480
Speaker 1: liberal government's pandemic response is part of a socialist great

4073
03:55:56,640 --> 03:55:59,600
Speaker 1: reset and pulling out the dog whistle on like China

4074
03:55:59,800 --> 03:56:02,080
Speaker 1: and the coronavirus, you know, as often as you can.

4075
03:56:02,560 --> 03:56:06,000
Speaker 1: UM tools in the past also downplayed Canadians Residential Schools

4076
03:56:06,120 --> 03:56:10,680
Speaker 1: program UM and described the efforts of activists pushing to

4077
03:56:10,800 --> 03:56:13,200
Speaker 1: removal of statues of the of the Residentary of School

4078
03:56:13,240 --> 03:56:17,320
Speaker 1: Architects as stupid. UM. So, I I do think O'tool

4079
03:56:17,400 --> 03:56:20,760
Speaker 1: prefers a conservative party, resistant too far right branding, but

4080
03:56:20,880 --> 03:56:22,480
Speaker 1: he knows he needs to appeal to the voters in

4081
03:56:22,600 --> 03:56:26,280
Speaker 1: order to win elections. So it's it's it's it's just

4082
03:56:26,600 --> 03:56:29,800
Speaker 1: it's the thing that's not great, but it's interesting to watch. UM.

4083
03:56:30,200 --> 03:56:34,400
Speaker 1: In August one, Justin Trudeau noted black face appreciator UH

4084
03:56:34,600 --> 03:56:37,320
Speaker 1: called a snap election in an effort to gain more

4085
03:56:37,360 --> 03:56:40,440
Speaker 1: parliamentary seats in hopes of getting a majority Liberal government,

4086
03:56:40,800 --> 03:56:42,440
Speaker 1: something a prime minister should not be allowed to do,

4087
03:56:42,520 --> 03:56:44,160
Speaker 1: by the way, like a priva minister should not be

4088
03:56:44,160 --> 03:56:46,440
Speaker 1: able to decide when to do elections. That is, like

4089
03:56:47,160 --> 03:56:51,240
Speaker 1: should totally not be a thing. Like what, no, you

4090
03:56:51,280 --> 03:56:56,920
Speaker 1: shouldn't do that, but anyway. Um. As snap election ramped up,

4091
03:56:57,120 --> 03:57:01,000
Speaker 1: the Conservative Party under a tool, made some extremely questionable

4092
03:57:01,080 --> 03:57:04,800
Speaker 1: choices for their marketings and their slogans. Um, what does

4093
03:57:04,840 --> 03:57:10,480
Speaker 1: the phrase secure the future bring to mind anything? Yeah?

4094
03:57:10,960 --> 03:57:13,960
Speaker 1: So that became the new tagline for the entire Conservative

4095
03:57:14,000 --> 03:57:18,520
Speaker 1: Party under o'tool. Right. Okay, sure, we got, we got,

4096
03:57:18,560 --> 03:57:21,080
Speaker 1: we got, we got Secure the Future, billboards, we got,

4097
03:57:21,160 --> 03:57:23,960
Speaker 1: we got, we got websites, Conservative dot c a slash

4098
03:57:24,040 --> 03:57:28,520
Speaker 1: secure the Future. We got mailer's magazine covers all emblazoned

4099
03:57:28,600 --> 03:57:32,600
Speaker 1: with secure the future or secure our future. Um, and

4100
03:57:32,720 --> 03:57:37,000
Speaker 1: you know what will secure our future? Garrison the Chevron

4101
03:57:37,040 --> 03:57:42,360
Speaker 1: ads that keep popping up that we keep securing our future. Yeah, great,

4102
03:57:42,760 --> 03:57:48,920
Speaker 1: you're welcome. It's a great time. Chevron appreciators for everyone. Ah,

4103
03:57:49,280 --> 03:57:54,280
Speaker 1: we're back and just appreciating Chevron, just like Justin Trudeau

4104
03:57:54,320 --> 03:57:59,560
Speaker 1: appreciate like Justin Trudeau. Yeah, so secure the future great

4105
03:57:59,600 --> 03:58:02,200
Speaker 1: slogan and not a good slogan. Bad. Um. I'm going

4106
03:58:02,280 --> 03:58:04,560
Speaker 1: to read a bit from a mailer that went out

4107
03:58:04,680 --> 03:58:08,080
Speaker 1: to Conservative Party members after a Tool one leadership quote.

4108
03:58:08,640 --> 03:58:11,400
Speaker 1: I firmly believe Canada has everything. It has everything it

4109
03:58:11,480 --> 03:58:14,120
Speaker 1: takes to recover from COVID nineteen and enjoy a prosperous

4110
03:58:14,160 --> 03:58:16,320
Speaker 1: future if we have a government that knows how to

4111
03:58:16,520 --> 03:58:20,400
Speaker 1: secure the future. If the truth, if the Trudeau Liberals

4112
03:58:20,440 --> 03:58:23,200
Speaker 1: stay in power, they'll continue spending taxpayer money at pandemic

4113
03:58:23,280 --> 03:58:26,440
Speaker 1: era levels long before, long after the virus is behind us.

4114
03:58:26,680 --> 03:58:29,240
Speaker 1: The result, all the things we love about Canada will

4115
03:58:29,240 --> 03:58:31,760
Speaker 1: be in serious jeopardy, Our debt will become out of control,

4116
03:58:31,960 --> 03:58:33,720
Speaker 1: and they'll never be able to get back the Canada

4117
03:58:33,800 --> 03:58:35,800
Speaker 1: you and I grew up in the kind of Canada

4118
03:58:35,880 --> 03:58:40,000
Speaker 1: our children and grandchildren deserve so uh. Later on in

4119
03:58:40,040 --> 03:58:41,720
Speaker 1: the page, oh, Tool says we need to stand up

4120
03:58:41,720 --> 03:58:44,440
Speaker 1: to the Chinese Communist Party and hold Beijing accountable for

4121
03:58:44,520 --> 03:58:48,920
Speaker 1: sabotaging our economy and taking jobs from Canadian workers. Um. And.

4122
03:58:49,120 --> 03:58:52,800
Speaker 1: On August sixteen, the Canadian Conservative Party Twitter account tweeted

4123
03:58:52,840 --> 03:58:57,400
Speaker 1: out and I quote, Canada's recovery program will secure the

4124
03:58:57,480 --> 03:59:01,320
Speaker 1: future for you, your children, and your and your grandchildren.

4125
03:59:02,160 --> 03:59:05,880
Speaker 1: So that's fun. Also, also, guess how guess guess how

4126
03:59:05,920 --> 03:59:09,960
Speaker 1: many words is in that last sentence. It's fourteen of them. Yeah, yeah,

4127
03:59:10,000 --> 03:59:14,040
Speaker 1: we're going back to calling Canada Clanada again. It's like

4128
03:59:14,160 --> 03:59:16,840
Speaker 1: a dog whistle, but except for you know, a dog whistle,

4129
03:59:16,880 --> 03:59:20,800
Speaker 1: only dogs can hear it, except everyone. It's just a whistle.

4130
03:59:21,040 --> 03:59:24,360
Speaker 1: It's just it's just a regular whistle. Yeah, it's it's

4131
03:59:24,360 --> 03:59:29,280
Speaker 1: it's that he just tweeted it tweet. Yeah. So as anyway,

4132
03:59:29,480 --> 03:59:32,240
Speaker 1: um as O'Toole was getting all secure the future piled um.

4133
03:59:32,360 --> 03:59:35,760
Speaker 1: Canada's actual far right populist party, the People's Party, was

4134
03:59:35,880 --> 03:59:40,240
Speaker 1: gaining much more popularity amid the pandemic and the anti mask,

4135
03:59:40,280 --> 03:59:44,840
Speaker 1: anti lockdown, anti VAXX protests. The COVID nineteen pandemic was

4136
03:59:44,880 --> 03:59:46,640
Speaker 1: a gift to the far right in general, as it

4137
03:59:46,680 --> 03:59:49,960
Speaker 1: allowed the injection and proliferation of conspiracy theories to accelerate

4138
03:59:49,960 --> 03:59:53,280
Speaker 1: at levels almost never before seen and provided fair recruiting

4139
03:59:53,320 --> 03:59:56,400
Speaker 1: ground to gain new followers. The PPC latched onto this

4140
03:59:56,520 --> 03:59:59,320
Speaker 1: and was extremely successful. They were you know, they sponsored protests.

4141
03:59:59,360 --> 04:00:01,120
Speaker 1: They did a whole b of campaigns that are around

4142
04:00:01,160 --> 04:00:03,800
Speaker 1: like anti mask stuff, anti vaccine, you know, all all

4143
04:00:03,880 --> 04:00:06,840
Speaker 1: of it. Um. So the PPC was able to be

4144
04:00:07,000 --> 04:00:09,680
Speaker 1: not just a safe harper for anti immigration, white nationalists

4145
04:00:09,720 --> 04:00:11,920
Speaker 1: and neo Nazis and other far right groups, but also

4146
04:00:12,000 --> 04:00:15,720
Speaker 1: now more mainstream anti lockdown, anti vaccine, anti government protesters

4147
04:00:15,800 --> 04:00:18,080
Speaker 1: as well as you know, gun rights activists and some

4148
04:00:18,240 --> 04:00:21,800
Speaker 1: general rule workers feeling left behind from even the Conservative Party.

4149
04:00:22,320 --> 04:00:25,240
Speaker 1: So the PPC has changed from a niche white nationalist

4150
04:00:25,280 --> 04:00:28,800
Speaker 1: party to a full blown far right populist force. What

4151
04:00:29,160 --> 04:00:31,320
Speaker 1: Berner and the and the PPC have done so effectively

4152
04:00:31,320 --> 04:00:33,480
Speaker 1: since the pandemic is to use the broad concerns around

4153
04:00:33,520 --> 04:00:36,760
Speaker 1: COVID and freedom and the more you know, mainstream concerns

4154
04:00:36,760 --> 04:00:40,440
Speaker 1: about economic anxieties, job loss, lots of businesses, immigration and

4155
04:00:40,520 --> 04:00:43,080
Speaker 1: changing culture and managed and managed to rule all of

4156
04:00:43,120 --> 04:00:45,840
Speaker 1: these things up into one tight package, which is really

4157
04:00:45,880 --> 04:00:48,200
Speaker 1: appealing to a lot of Canadians who are very anxious

4158
04:00:48,200 --> 04:00:51,120
Speaker 1: about the state of their country, especially amid the COVID

4159
04:00:51,240 --> 04:00:55,560
Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic. So the results of the September snap election,

4160
04:00:55,720 --> 04:00:58,440
Speaker 1: which was you know, last month, we're basically the same

4161
04:00:58,480 --> 04:01:01,880
Speaker 1: as the twenty nine election, except the PPC went from

4162
04:01:02,040 --> 04:01:04,000
Speaker 1: one point six percent of the vote to five percent

4163
04:01:04,080 --> 04:01:07,120
Speaker 1: of the vote, a big, big change, uh. They That

4164
04:01:07,240 --> 04:01:10,440
Speaker 1: means they were ranking above the Green Party and nearly

4165
04:01:10,600 --> 04:01:14,720
Speaker 1: tying the block kebu Qua. So they made like, I know,

4166
04:01:14,880 --> 04:01:17,520
Speaker 1: like one percent of five percent doesn't seem like tons,

4167
04:01:17,640 --> 04:01:19,680
Speaker 1: but like this is a really big jump for a

4168
04:01:19,760 --> 04:01:23,400
Speaker 1: brand new party, um, especially especially if they're ahead of

4169
04:01:23,440 --> 04:01:25,960
Speaker 1: the Green Party and tying the Block Party. That is

4170
04:01:26,040 --> 04:01:30,920
Speaker 1: like a notable shift um. The University of Ghulaf Professor

4171
04:01:31,360 --> 04:01:34,440
Speaker 1: of of Political Science, Tamra Small said that said this

4172
04:01:34,680 --> 04:01:37,160
Speaker 1: after the results of the last snap election quote, I

4173
04:01:37,240 --> 04:01:39,240
Speaker 1: think the only leader who's a static about last night's

4174
04:01:39,240 --> 04:01:41,840
Speaker 1: results is Bernair. I don't think they're going anywhere. I

4175
04:01:41,920 --> 04:01:44,240
Speaker 1: think it seems that he's taken the populism and attached

4176
04:01:44,280 --> 04:01:47,040
Speaker 1: to far right politics, the idea that Canada was immune

4177
04:01:47,080 --> 04:01:48,960
Speaker 1: to this sort of far right populism, the idea that

4178
04:01:49,040 --> 04:01:51,280
Speaker 1: Canada was going to be free from the populism that

4179
04:01:51,360 --> 04:01:53,960
Speaker 1: we saw in Europe, like what Nigel Farage is in

4180
04:01:54,000 --> 04:01:56,320
Speaker 1: the UK. But I think lots of people are wondering

4181
04:01:56,400 --> 04:01:58,120
Speaker 1: if Bernara is just gonna say I'm not here to

4182
04:01:58,200 --> 04:02:00,400
Speaker 1: form an actual government. I'm just here to challenge the

4183
04:02:00,480 --> 04:02:04,680
Speaker 1: system and use that as a way of gaining massive support. Um.

4184
04:02:05,000 --> 04:02:08,760
Speaker 1: After us CTV News emailed the PPC for comment for

4185
04:02:08,840 --> 04:02:12,080
Speaker 1: their post election story, uh, the party spokesperson sent back

4186
04:02:12,200 --> 04:02:15,960
Speaker 1: a one line email response, I don't respond to requests

4187
04:02:16,000 --> 04:02:21,080
Speaker 1: from leftists. Activists masquerading as journalists get lost, So that's fun.

4188
04:02:21,520 --> 04:02:24,960
Speaker 1: Also in late September, Bernard's Twitter account was temporarily suspended

4189
04:02:25,240 --> 04:02:30,680
Speaker 1: for encouraging his supporters to attack journalists. Yeah. Just not like,

4190
04:02:31,280 --> 04:02:33,720
Speaker 1: I'm okay with criticizing journalist and stuff, because most journalists

4191
04:02:33,760 --> 04:02:36,800
Speaker 1: are like not great. But when you're using your political

4192
04:02:36,840 --> 04:02:38,800
Speaker 1: Twitter account to just like tell people to just go

4193
04:02:38,880 --> 04:02:41,960
Speaker 1: attack the press, usually it's a bad sign of of

4194
04:02:42,160 --> 04:02:45,280
Speaker 1: like a political party. Usually it's just like, yeah, political

4195
04:02:45,320 --> 04:02:48,160
Speaker 1: parties when they do that usually leads to bad things. Um.

4196
04:02:48,760 --> 04:02:51,480
Speaker 1: We are going to talk about one kind of wrapping

4197
04:02:51,560 --> 04:02:54,400
Speaker 1: up here. We'anna talking about one Ontario People's Party candidate

4198
04:02:54,560 --> 04:02:58,720
Speaker 1: named Mario Greco, who was a another another high school

4199
04:02:58,760 --> 04:03:03,360
Speaker 1: teacher UM and still proclaimed game developer UM of a

4200
04:03:03,480 --> 04:03:06,120
Speaker 1: few years ago. I I see Chriss Wincent because like

4201
04:03:06,720 --> 04:03:09,640
Speaker 1: you know, this can't lead to good tis the gamers

4202
04:03:09,760 --> 04:03:13,040
Speaker 1: it can't be good. So A few years ago, Greco

4203
04:03:13,240 --> 04:03:18,400
Speaker 1: made a video game called Happy Culture Shootout UM. Quoting

4204
04:03:18,400 --> 04:03:21,800
Speaker 1: an article from Press Progress dot c A Happy Culture

4205
04:03:21,840 --> 04:03:24,280
Speaker 1: Shootout is a Space Invaders style game that allows players

4206
04:03:24,320 --> 04:03:27,320
Speaker 1: to control spaceship that shoots laser beams at caricatures of

4207
04:03:27,440 --> 04:03:30,600
Speaker 1: various identity groups. Quote. This game is about an alien

4208
04:03:30,720 --> 04:03:33,480
Speaker 1: order to invade Earth and transport all humans to happy Land,

4209
04:03:33,560 --> 04:03:36,280
Speaker 1: Greco says on his personal website, which includes other games

4210
04:03:36,360 --> 04:03:39,080
Speaker 1: that he authored, like Die Mare, which is about a young,

4211
04:03:39,120 --> 04:03:42,960
Speaker 1: misunderstood hero who sees to liberate post war Germany. UM

4212
04:03:44,000 --> 04:03:46,880
Speaker 1: Boy in a in a sist in a since tell

4213
04:03:46,960 --> 04:03:49,880
Speaker 1: did video obtained by Press Progress. The People's Party Canada

4214
04:03:50,000 --> 04:03:53,640
Speaker 1: delivered a presentation to university students several years ago, offering

4215
04:03:53,800 --> 04:03:58,240
Speaker 1: his post mortem on the game. Um Reco expressed surprise

4216
04:03:58,320 --> 04:04:01,400
Speaker 1: that his students and faculty reacted negatively to the game,

4217
04:04:01,640 --> 04:04:04,120
Speaker 1: with one calling it the most racist game I've ever played.

4218
04:04:04,480 --> 04:04:06,920
Speaker 1: Greco says his game is not racist in the slightest,

4219
04:04:07,120 --> 04:04:09,600
Speaker 1: noting that he made fun of his own Italian heritage.

4220
04:04:10,400 --> 04:04:12,720
Speaker 1: He also claimed that some students thought his gay Pride

4221
04:04:12,760 --> 04:04:17,320
Speaker 1: parade level was hilarious. My friends and I love people

4222
04:04:17,400 --> 04:04:19,360
Speaker 1: of all cultures, and we also love humor of all

4223
04:04:19,440 --> 04:04:22,960
Speaker 1: types that includes harmless racist jokes. Greco said in the video.

4224
04:04:23,640 --> 04:04:25,280
Speaker 1: The game was intended to make a joke about how

4225
04:04:25,360 --> 04:04:27,680
Speaker 1: ridiculous cultural stereotypes are, so we can laugh about it

4226
04:04:27,720 --> 04:04:30,960
Speaker 1: together and move on with our lives. UM. During the presentation,

4227
04:04:31,000 --> 04:04:34,520
Speaker 1: the People's Party candidate offered a interesting side note about

4228
04:04:34,560 --> 04:04:38,760
Speaker 1: the games Israel level. According according to Greco, a faculty

4229
04:04:38,800 --> 04:04:41,760
Speaker 1: member at the university strongly recommended that he removed Jewish

4230
04:04:41,880 --> 04:04:44,440
Speaker 1: stereotypes from the game. He was like, no, get rid

4231
04:04:44,440 --> 04:04:47,440
Speaker 1: of it immediately. Don't have any religious content whatsoever. I

4232
04:04:47,520 --> 04:04:51,640
Speaker 1: know that subject is very, very touchy. So yeah, this

4233
04:04:51,840 --> 04:04:55,360
Speaker 1: is just a game where you race shoot to minority people. UM. Anyway.

4234
04:04:55,480 --> 04:04:59,440
Speaker 1: In twenty six and Greco posted a photo on Facebook

4235
04:04:59,560 --> 04:05:01,560
Speaker 1: of an el stration of Pepe the Frog, which he

4236
04:05:01,680 --> 04:05:03,880
Speaker 1: said was drawn by one of his students in in

4237
04:05:04,240 --> 04:05:08,000
Speaker 1: the white board of his York Region high school. UM.

4238
04:05:08,240 --> 04:05:11,520
Speaker 1: Peppe had a little speech bubble that said free Kakistan

4239
04:05:13,080 --> 04:05:19,680
Speaker 1: great yea so now Nazis so Currently, Greco was spending

4240
04:05:19,720 --> 04:05:22,520
Speaker 1: his time tweeting about critical race theory and trying to

4241
04:05:22,640 --> 04:05:25,360
Speaker 1: get into office under the People's Party banner. UM. In

4242
04:05:25,480 --> 04:05:29,400
Speaker 1: his Twitter bio, he calls himself an egalitarian, libertarian nationalist

4243
04:05:29,880 --> 04:05:33,400
Speaker 1: and he still also teaches computer science at Ontario Higher

4244
04:05:34,320 --> 04:05:39,080
Speaker 1: call themselves fascists. I know it's it's not fun. These

4245
04:05:39,120 --> 04:05:43,520
Speaker 1: people are all all for the worst most scum. UM.

4246
04:05:44,320 --> 04:05:47,440
Speaker 1: And one one more thing before we sign off. UM.

4247
04:05:47,760 --> 04:05:51,320
Speaker 1: Last month, right before the September election, I was forwarded

4248
04:05:51,400 --> 04:05:55,760
Speaker 1: some pictures of some People's Party of Canada posters and

4249
04:05:55,880 --> 04:05:59,240
Speaker 1: flyers put up linking to their campaign website that someone

4250
04:05:59,720 --> 04:06:04,000
Speaker 1: came across UM around town, not not Portland's, like somewhere

4251
04:06:04,000 --> 04:06:07,960
Speaker 1: in Canada. UM. Under the PPC logo there was you know,

4252
04:06:08,480 --> 04:06:11,560
Speaker 1: pictures of people's faces and big black text that said

4253
04:06:12,000 --> 04:06:18,200
Speaker 1: it's okay to be white, right bad. So that's the

4254
04:06:18,240 --> 04:06:23,160
Speaker 1: liberal utopia of Canada, everybody. UM. And basically, like the

4255
04:06:23,200 --> 04:06:24,920
Speaker 1: reason why I want to put these episodes together is because,

4256
04:06:24,920 --> 04:06:26,280
Speaker 1: like we we lots of like, you know, we make

4257
04:06:26,320 --> 04:06:28,200
Speaker 1: a lot of jokes about, you know, escaping to Canada

4258
04:06:28,240 --> 04:06:30,120
Speaker 1: as the States gets too fascist, and I just want

4259
04:06:30,160 --> 04:06:32,840
Speaker 1: to like say, like I'm not saying Canada's get at

4260
04:06:32,880 --> 04:06:35,400
Speaker 1: the same rate, but Canada is not immune to the

4261
04:06:35,480 --> 04:06:39,320
Speaker 1: same thing, like it's it's it's, it's it's you can't

4262
04:06:39,520 --> 04:06:44,840
Speaker 1: you can't run away from authoritarianism by moving, yeah to

4263
04:06:44,920 --> 04:06:48,200
Speaker 1: a country with no history of authoritarianism, like I don't know, Germany,

4264
04:06:48,960 --> 04:06:51,560
Speaker 1: uh huh. Yeah. And I think the everything is important

4265
04:06:51,560 --> 04:06:54,240
Speaker 1: with with Canada particularly is that like Canada is like

4266
04:06:54,480 --> 04:06:57,320
Speaker 1: affected by American political trends. And you see this absolutely

4267
04:06:57,680 --> 04:06:59,360
Speaker 1: like like one of one of the things that I

4268
04:06:59,400 --> 04:07:01,200
Speaker 1: remember looking now when I was when I was looking

4269
04:07:01,240 --> 04:07:03,640
Speaker 1: into sort of uh if you look at the history

4270
04:07:03,720 --> 04:07:05,960
Speaker 1: of like anti Asian riots for example, So there's a

4271
04:07:06,040 --> 04:07:07,680
Speaker 1: huge wave and night No. Seven that goes like it

4272
04:07:07,680 --> 04:07:09,200
Speaker 1: goes all the way up the West Coast, a lot

4273
04:07:09,280 --> 04:07:12,160
Speaker 1: of them, and it ends in Toronto. Yeah, a lot

4274
04:07:12,280 --> 04:07:14,240
Speaker 1: of you know. Yeah, and you see you see that

4275
04:07:14,360 --> 04:07:16,880
Speaker 1: like and you see that like today to where it's like, yeah,

4276
04:07:16,960 --> 04:07:20,480
Speaker 1: the Toronto I think has the highest rate of anti

4277
04:07:20,560 --> 04:07:24,120
Speaker 1: Asian attacks like in North America. That's not pretty impressive

4278
04:07:24,160 --> 04:07:27,200
Speaker 1: considering like the absolute ship show going on in like

4279
04:07:27,640 --> 04:07:30,120
Speaker 1: New York, in l A and Seattle, and it's like, no,

4280
04:07:30,240 --> 04:07:35,160
Speaker 1: Toronto's worse. No, It's it's real bad. There's I talk

4281
04:07:35,200 --> 04:07:37,720
Speaker 1: a lot about how the far right's getting a lot,

4282
04:07:37,880 --> 04:07:40,560
Speaker 1: a lot more, a lot stronger of an influence in Alberta,

4283
04:07:40,920 --> 04:07:43,600
Speaker 1: and it is spreading into other eastern eastern provinces, not

4284
04:07:43,840 --> 04:07:46,000
Speaker 1: just inside Quebec. You know, there was the insult attack

4285
04:07:46,080 --> 04:07:48,040
Speaker 1: in Toronto a few years ago that killed like, I

4286
04:07:48,080 --> 04:07:50,160
Speaker 1: think like a dozen people. Of course, there was the

4287
04:07:50,200 --> 04:07:53,320
Speaker 1: Quebec mosque shooting. There's been a lot of these kind

4288
04:07:53,360 --> 04:07:55,760
Speaker 1: of things popping off, and you know, there's there's even

4289
04:07:55,840 --> 04:07:58,960
Speaker 1: more starting in like British Columbia as well, which is

4290
04:07:59,080 --> 04:08:01,920
Speaker 1: which has a decent far right kind of influence, at

4291
04:08:01,960 --> 04:08:04,840
Speaker 1: least on the eastern side of BC, um away from

4292
04:08:04,880 --> 04:08:08,880
Speaker 1: like Victoria and from Vancouver. UM. So, yeah, I just

4293
04:08:08,920 --> 04:08:10,720
Speaker 1: wanted to like place together and be like, hey, you know,

4294
04:08:10,840 --> 04:08:13,120
Speaker 1: it's it's worth looking at these countries that we usually

4295
04:08:13,200 --> 04:08:16,120
Speaker 1: view as you know, generally doing better and be like no, like,

4296
04:08:16,480 --> 04:08:18,760
Speaker 1: it's the same thing is happening there, and it's all

4297
04:08:18,880 --> 04:08:22,000
Speaker 1: it's all part of the same overarching slide right word

4298
04:08:22,440 --> 04:08:24,960
Speaker 1: that we've seen in both in the UK we were

4299
04:08:25,000 --> 04:08:27,560
Speaker 1: even seeing it now in Germany. We're seeing it, you know,

4300
04:08:27,680 --> 04:08:30,240
Speaker 1: in the obviously the States under Trump, and in Canada,

4301
04:08:30,360 --> 04:08:32,880
Speaker 1: even though the liberals have won the past few elections.

4302
04:08:33,240 --> 04:08:36,560
Speaker 1: It's still scooting right word. So yeah, I just wanted

4303
04:08:36,600 --> 04:08:38,560
Speaker 1: to put this thing together. If you want to keep

4304
04:08:38,600 --> 04:08:40,640
Speaker 1: up to date on Canadian stuff, you can check out

4305
04:08:40,720 --> 04:08:44,440
Speaker 1: the Canadian Antihit network, which does work tracking extremism in Canada.

4306
04:08:45,680 --> 04:08:51,120
Speaker 1: And yeah, that is ah, that is what I put together, Sparrison. Yeah,

4307
04:08:51,160 --> 04:08:55,360
Speaker 1: you're welcoming, You're welcome. Well, that's the episode that's gonna

4308
04:08:55,440 --> 04:08:57,400
Speaker 1: do it for us here, and it could happen here today,

4309
04:08:57,760 --> 04:09:00,680
Speaker 1: come back tomorrow or you know when ever, and we'll

4310
04:09:00,720 --> 04:09:03,880
Speaker 1: talk about another part of the world. Maybe I don't

4311
04:09:03,920 --> 04:09:07,880
Speaker 1: know Portugal. Fuck it, I don't have stuff pulled up

4312
04:09:07,880 --> 04:09:11,400
Speaker 1: for parture life. You have to me by tomorrow. No,

4313
04:09:11,760 --> 04:09:14,920
Speaker 1: that's what we're doing now. Follow us on Twitter, on

4314
04:09:15,000 --> 04:09:16,960
Speaker 1: Instagram and it could happen here. Pot Nicols on media

4315
04:09:17,040 --> 04:09:25,680
Speaker 1: leave five star reviews, whatever, goodbye. Hey, We'll be back

4316
04:09:25,760 --> 04:09:28,920
Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the

4317
04:09:29,000 --> 04:09:31,880
Speaker 1: heat death of the Universe. It could happen here is

4318
04:09:31,920 --> 04:09:34,600
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from

4319
04:09:34,640 --> 04:09:37,520
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,

4320
04:09:37,680 --> 04:09:39,440
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

4321
04:09:39,440 --> 04:09:42,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

4322
04:09:42,840 --> 04:09:45,520
Speaker 1: find sources for it could happen here. Updated monthly at

4323
04:09:45,560 --> 04:09:48,760
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

4324
04:09:50,000 --> 04:09:53,840
Speaker 1: On April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and

4325
04:09:53,920 --> 04:09:57,280
Speaker 1: killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray

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Speaker 1: was arrested. Case closed right. James Sylvy was upon for

4327
04:10:03,440 --> 04:10:06,920
Speaker 1: the official story. Some of the evidence, as far as

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Speaker 1: I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is

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Speaker 1: the MLK Tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen

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Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover.

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4335
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Speaker 1: talking with the FBI and promised that he could take

4336
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Speaker 1: the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to

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Speaker 1: Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: But when I went and did the Donda thing, he

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