1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Wellness sun Mass. I'm doctor Nicole Staffire, and 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: today we have a very serious and important topic to discuss, 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: mainly because you're seeing it all over the news cycle. 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Right now. We're going to be talking to a young 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: woman named Claire who believed that she was transgender as 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: young as when she was in middle school, and we're 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: going to really, you know, I'm going to take off 8 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: my doctor cap. I just want to hear her story. 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: I want to know what she was thinking, what she 10 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: was feeling, what were some of the things that were 11 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: going on around her. You know, did she wake up 12 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: one morning and just believe that she was a boy? 13 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: Did she always believe she was a boy? You know, 14 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,639 Speaker 1: we talk about these cases all the time. I talk 15 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: about it on TV, I talk about it here on 16 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: the podcast, about being transgender. But at the end of 17 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: the day, I don't really know what that feels like. 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 1: And while I can cite statistics to you, I can 19 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: tell you that, you know, about three percent of all 20 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: high school students right now are identifying as transition. How 21 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: we get that statistic, I don't know, but I mean 22 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: that seems like a very very large amount compared to 23 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: when I was younger, and we're only seeing a rise 24 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: in the number of kids who are questioning their gender, 25 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: you know, questioning the sex that they were born. Is 26 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: this just another fad or is there something more scientific 27 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: to it. I can tell you my personal opinion, but 28 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: my personal opinion you can take it as you want. 29 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: My personal opinion is, well, there really are some people who, 30 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: maybe even from you know, young childhood, truly do not 31 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: feel comfortable in their own skin, in the sense that 32 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: they just don't feel like they are the gender that 33 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: they were born to. Now, this is different from those 34 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: who are born with a certain set of chromosomes, but 35 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: something happened in utero or something happened with their hormones 36 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: and they have different genitalia than from in different hormone 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: and from what their chromosomes are. That's scientific, okay, but 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: those are extremely rare cases when it comes to being transgender. 39 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: This is, you know, you were born with the chromosomes 40 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: of a certain gender, your body looks like that certain gender, 41 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: your hormones inside are that certain gender, but your brain 42 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: is just telling you, no, I don't want to be 43 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to be something else. And so it's for 44 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: those cases that I start to have some concern. And 45 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: the reason that is is because I have done a 46 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: lot of deep dives into I want to look at 47 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: these individuals. Is there any sort of common factor of 48 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: kids who are identifying as transgender? And I really just 49 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: want to focus on the kids in this conversation because 50 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to adults, at a certain point, 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: your frontal lobe has been developed. If you want to 52 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: make choices. If you're a guy, you want to wear 53 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: a dress. If you're a girl, you don't want to 54 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: wear a dress. Whatever. You can get tattoos, you can, 55 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: you can drink alcohol. At this point, your brain is 56 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: of the state where you can consent and make decisions. 57 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily agree with all of your decisions, but 58 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: you can do it. But when it comes to kids, 59 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that I get very concerned about 60 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: is when you look at the kids who identify as transgender, 61 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: a common thread that you see as the whole home 62 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: life and the most robust national snapshot came out of 63 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: the CDC in toy twenty three. Now it doesn't directly 64 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: measure quote unquote family structure in detail, but it does 65 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: capture things like housing and stability and safety and violence, 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: all things that are highly connected with you know, stress 67 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: hormones and just home stressors in general. And so when 68 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: you look at the CDC's national analysis comparing transgender versus 69 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: non transgender or I guess the term is cisgender. I 70 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: don't know why we have to keep coming up with 71 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: new terms, but for either kids who identifies trans or 72 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: kids who don't, if you look at those who have 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: what they refer to as some sort of unstable housing, 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: about eleven percent of those kids were transgender compared to 75 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: two percent in non transgender. And the gap widens even 76 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: more so if kids were missing school because they felt 77 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: unsafe in their home environment, twenty five percent transgender, eight 78 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: percent non transgender. And then kids who if you're looking 79 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: at our bullied ex school, forty percent transgender with about 80 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: fifteen percent non transgender. So these are big discrepancies. And 81 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 1: then if you actually look at now the diagnosed mental 82 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: health burden plus suicide statistics, it was also quite incredible 83 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: as well. When you look at the transgender high school students, 84 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: about sixty five percent of them said that they had 85 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: poor mental health, About seventy two percent of them had 86 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: persistent sadness or felt hopelessness, and over half of them 87 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: seriously considered suicide in the past twelve months, with about 88 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: twenty six percent of them having attempted suicide. Now, the 89 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: question is were they mentally ill before they came out 90 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: as trans or did they come out of trans and 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: then they were dealing with some mental illness. And what 92 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: I'm seeing over and over again is you have these 93 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: subset of kids, a lot of them which have some 94 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: sort of unstable home environment, some sort of home stressor 95 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: they're dealing with some mental health issues, maybe some depression, 96 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: anxiety even more severe like a bipolar a borderline disorder. 97 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: And one thing that they're grabbing onto because it's a 98 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: bit of a trend right now and there's a strong 99 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: support is to be transgender. All of a sudden, they 100 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: feel like they are being pulled into a community. But 101 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: what it seems is happening is, well, now they are 102 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: coming out as transgender, and sometimes they're doing the medications 103 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: and the surgery, but the mental health issues that were 104 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,119 Speaker 1: there before they came out as transgender are still there. 105 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: It wasn't that becoming transgender automatically cured them of what 106 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: they were already suffering from. In fact, oftentimes it made 107 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: it worse, and so for me personally, I think it's 108 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: really important to have empathy for people who are dealing 109 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: with these situations and not just criticize them, because in 110 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: my opinion, they're coming from a place of suffering and struggling. 111 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: And so that is why I am very happy to 112 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: have on today, Wellness un Mass Claire Abernathy, who is 113 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: going to tell us our story. Well, I'm very excited 114 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: to have Claire Abernathy on to educate not only me, 115 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: but everyone listening, because this is a very important topic. 116 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: And while you know a lot of people stay away 117 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: from it because there's a lot of polaetization of it. 118 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: There seems to be a lot of extremes. I think 119 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: the best thing we can do is educate ourselves so 120 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: we can make our own opinions. Claire, thank you so 121 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: much for joining. Thank you for having me so Claire, 122 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to take my doctor's hat off four minutes. 123 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: I am just going to try and have this conversation 124 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: as a mother, as member of my community. Obviously, people 125 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: talk about gender transitioning transgender It's gotten a lot of 126 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: attention pretty much over the last decade, but some people 127 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: still don't really even know what that means. When you 128 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: were in I think middle school, it was you started 129 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: having some thoughts regarding your gender. Can you kind of 130 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: just talk us through that? 131 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: So whenever I was in the fifth grade, so when 132 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: I was eleven years old, I had some some experiences 133 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: with boys in my class that made me feel uncomfortable 134 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: with my body. I developed quite early, so people started 135 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: noticing me in ways that I wasn't used to comfortable with. 136 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: And I it's part of a group of girls who 137 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: were all friends, and a couple of them around the 138 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: same time started calling themselves transgender, which basically meant that 139 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: they they cut their hair short, and they started wearing 140 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: like more androgynous or masculine clothes, and they picked me. 141 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: A tomboy when I was eleven. 142 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, everything's got to have a new label. 143 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: But they picked new names, and they started calling themselves boys, 144 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: and everyone would call them like Emily became coolby and 145 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 2: now she's a heat. I was kind of curious about this, 146 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: and I was talking to my friends about it, and 147 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: one of them offered to lend me a chest binder 148 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: to make my breasts look flat, and I started doing 149 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: research online, and they read that like, you don't even 150 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: have to feel like a boy. You don't even have 151 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: to want to be a boy. You can just like 152 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: feel different or not like a girl all the time. 153 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: You could be non binary or gender fluid. And so 154 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: I started. The first word that I called myself was 155 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: gender fluid, and then I was non binary, and then 156 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: a little after I turned twelve, I started calling myself 157 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: a transgender boy. 158 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: I'm want to go back a little bit because I 159 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: just really want to understand when you said you developed 160 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: early who I think I've read before that you essentially 161 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: your chest developed more, maybe more than your peers around you. 162 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: And I know, as a girl who had larger chests 163 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, Yeah, you know, it draws 164 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: a lot of unwanted attention. And so from that, you 165 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: were getting some of that unwanted attention. It kind of 166 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: made you uncomfortable. But at any point did you even 167 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: feel a sexual orientation at that point, like you were 168 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: attracted to boys or you attracted to girls, or was 169 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: it just a general state of being uncomfortable in yourself. 170 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: I was calling myself bisexual, but I don't know that 171 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: I even really had a sexuality at that point pretty young. Yeah, 172 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: I I mean, like I had crushes on boys and 173 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: girls in my class, but like if I felt that 174 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: same way about someone now, I would call that like 175 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: I want to be their friend, not really like sexual attraction. 176 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: Okay, And so you were kind of feeling this certain 177 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: way and you then referred to as gender fluid and 178 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: then binary. Can you kind of just talk us through 179 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: what are those differences and what did that mean to you? 180 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 2: So someone who identifies as gender fluid might feel more 181 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 2: like a boy one day or more like a girl 182 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: the other day, and like somewhere in between on the 183 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: third day. What it means to feel like a boy 184 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: or a girl. That's more complicated, But non binary would 185 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 2: be it's sort of an umbrella term that encompasses anyone 186 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: that doesn't feel like they fit into boy or girl labels. 187 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: And so you said you kind of went through both 188 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: of those and then you considered yourself transgender. So take 189 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: us through that. 190 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: Well. I had always kind of had shorter hair, always 191 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: kind of preferred playing with the boys, dressing more mask 192 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: a tomboy, like you said, and around that time that 193 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: sort of the discomfort that I was feeling about my 194 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: body started getting a lot more extreme, a lot more noticeable. 195 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 2: And I was in this group of girls who were 196 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: quite troubled. A lot of us were autistic or had 197 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: histories of trauma, and before the trans thing, we all 198 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: had eating disorders or were cutting ourselves. 199 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: Hey, can I ask you if you looked at that 200 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: group of friends, what was the home life like for 201 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: those friends? 202 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: A lot of us were children of divorce. My parents 203 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: didn't separate until I was older. But most of my 204 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: friends did not live in two parent households. A lot 205 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: of them had drive abuse in the family. One of 206 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: the one of my friends, her father was in prison 207 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 2: for a sex crime against a child, not on her, 208 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: but a different child. Troubled gets troubled home life. I 209 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: wouldn't describe my home life in the same way. There 210 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: was issues with alcoholism in my family, and you know, 211 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: they separated eventually, so it wasn't like the happiest but 212 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: it okay. Neither of my parents were in jail for 213 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: sex crimes. 214 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: There's a big spectrum of home life. It's not all 215 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: perfect or not imperfect. There's a big somewhere in between, 216 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: and that's where most But I guess my point was 217 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: there is when you look at some of the data 218 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: those who are kids who become transgender. If you look 219 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: at the home life, sometimes they have higher rates of 220 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: as you're seeing divorce or drug use or an absent 221 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: father or something some sort of stressor know that adolescence, 222 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: pre adolescence age is a crucial part of our development, 223 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: which I want we're going to get to your development 224 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: specifically shortly, but it's a time where you really need 225 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: the emotional support. And it seems like maybe this group 226 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: of your friends did necessarily have the support that maybe 227 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: they could have used during that time. 228 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, we all kind of were cycling through different means 229 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: of seeking help, of trying to like signal that we 230 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: were distressed and unhappy to the adults around us. Like 231 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: I said, a lot of us before the trans thing, 232 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: we had eating disorders or were cutting ourselves or a 233 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: whole list of other things. And you know, it was 234 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: that was sort of the fashionable way of doing that 235 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: at the time, of giving a trend, yeah, of saying, 236 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: you know, look, I'm hurting, I'm sad, and I need help. 237 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: Basically Okay, So what was the next steps for you? 238 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: Obviously you wore the chest binder to try and hide 239 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: your developing breasts, your hair was maybe shorter, even shorter. 240 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: And what else? Well, I started calling myself Tyler, and 241 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: all my friends did as well. 242 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: How did you settle on Tyler? 243 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: You know, I don't remember exactly, but the name that 244 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 2: I was choosing between Tyler and it was Brady. Brady 245 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: came from my favorite Disney Channel movie. If that gives 246 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: you any insight to sort of my thinking at the time. Okay, Well, 247 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: and then they were calling me he and I had 248 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 2: my teachers do that as well. And this was sort 249 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: of behind my parents' backs at this point. 250 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: So say, did your parents know anything about them? No? 251 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: And then and. 252 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: Your teachers were fine with it. They are fine calling 253 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: you Tyler and he? And did anyone say are your 254 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: parents involved? Did anyone, like the school counselor, did anyone 255 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: try to talk to you about this? Like what is this? 256 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: What does this mean to you? And how are you 257 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: feeling about it? And why aren't your parents involved? 258 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: My guidance counselor did ask me if my parents knew 259 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: and were supportive, But that was sort of It wasn't 260 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: a should I be talking to your parents about this? 261 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: It was like are we keeping this a secret. It 262 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: was basically the vibe I got from that conversation, right, 263 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: It wasn't okay with keeping your secret. Yeah, and like 264 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 2: so they were calling me Tyler and he in class 265 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: and in front of my peers, but my real name 266 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: and she in like messages to my parents it was 267 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: a secret, and. 268 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: Talk us through the next steps. So it turned from 269 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: just kind of some superficial stuff to kind of almost 270 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: feel like game playing at school keeping secrets. But things 271 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: got pretty real for you. 272 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: So when I was thirteen, my parents found out that 273 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: I was cutting myself, and they took me to a 274 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: therapist who specialized in like adolescent issues, and they had 275 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: noticed by this point that I was like that I 276 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: was binding my chest. I think they like they looked 277 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: through my phone a couple of times. They probably saw 278 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: that I was talking about this with my friends, and 279 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: so they took me to a therapist who specialized in 280 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: this kind of issue like gender. And I went to 281 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: the intake session with this therapist. She told my parents 282 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: that I was like textbook, There was not a doubt 283 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: in her mind that I was transgender, and that my. 284 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: You were cutting before you started being transgender, and you're 285 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: still cutting yes, So it wasn't like when you were 286 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: living as a girl, then this suppressed boy inside of 287 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: you is causing you to cut. And now that you 288 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: were starting to live as a boy, you're no longer 289 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: cutting because you're doing better. The reality is you were 290 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: suffering for and you were still suffering. Now you have 291 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: this therapist saying class classic textbook, you're transgender. 292 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: Okay, I still had a pretty significant eating disorder. I 293 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: was still cutting myself. There wasn't added on to you. 294 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: It's not like it didn't help in any way. And 295 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: so from there, what did you do? 296 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: Well? She told my parents that all of these issues 297 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: that I was having were because they wouldn't affirm me, 298 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: that they weren't calling me a boy, and like going 299 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: along with what I said that I wanted. And I 300 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: don't remember exactly the timeline here, but I stopped seeing 301 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 2: this therapist eventually because she practiced like an hour and 302 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: a half away from where we lived, and they took 303 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: me to a new therapist who was closer and basically 304 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: these act same thing happened and within the first so 305 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: I started seeing this the second therapist in September of 306 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, and the same month I had my assessment 307 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 2: with the gender clinic for starting hormones. 308 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: So your parents at this point were supportive of you. 309 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,479 Speaker 2: They were still somewhat skeptical, but they were calling me Tyler. 310 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: They were calling me he went. 311 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: Up still cutting and having eating disorder at this point. 312 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: Still, yes, not as much. But that wasn't really because 313 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: I was better. That was kind of just because I 314 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: found new ways of channeling those feelings. And then so 315 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: my parents didn't really believe it until I had the 316 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: assessment with the gender clinic. They thought, you know, these 317 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 2: are the experts, these are the people who will know. 318 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: And I've had many conversations with my mom about this. 319 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 2: She was under the impression that I was going to 320 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: go I was gonna have this assessment with the clinic 321 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: and they were going to say, No, it's it's not 322 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 2: she's not trans, it's it's something else. You Ron. 323 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: She was in denial a bit that this was really 324 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 1: going to happen. 325 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I wasn't. This had come out 326 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: of nowhere. I was like a very traditional tomboy. I 327 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 2: liked playing in the mud and like Pokemon. It wasn't 328 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: I was never distressed about being a girl until it 329 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 2: became fashionable until all my friends were But the therapist 330 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 2: psychologist at the at the gender clinic exact same thing. 331 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: She talked to me for about an hour and a half, 332 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 2: and she talked to my parents for about an hour 333 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: and a half, and then she came back and she said, 334 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: this is a textbook case of gender dysh You. 335 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: Do you feel when you talk to some of these 336 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: the psychologists and the therapist, that you're always honest with them, 337 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: or do you feel like how you really feel deep 338 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: down or at any point did you answer the questions 339 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: kind of how you think that they may have wanted 340 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: you to answer them to kind of confirm and affirm 341 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: the fact that you were trying to be transgender. 342 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: Here's the thing, So I was always honest with my therapist. 343 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: I never made anything up. But the way that these 344 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: online clicks and like the friend groups work is that 345 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 2: it entirely works your self perception, both present and past. 346 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: So like me playing in the mud and preferring to 347 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 2: be with the boys and not liking my period, when 348 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: I got who what girl likes? Getting her period became 349 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: something that it wasn't. It became abnormal in my mind. 350 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: It became something that was a sign. 351 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: Distorted way of thinking of taking stuff that are very 352 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: normal feelings twisting them. So you were at the gender clinic, 353 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: Get what point did you actually start taking medications or 354 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: actually doing something to to physically alter yourself. 355 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: When I was thirteen, they put me on depo provera, 356 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: which is a kind of birth control, to stop my periods. 357 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: A week after I turned fourteen, two months after I 358 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: started seeing that first or the second therapist, they put 359 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: me on testosterone and that you know, it permanently changed 360 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 2: my voice within a couple months, caused like reproductive issues. 361 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: Did you like the way that this new hormones made 362 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: you feel? 363 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 2: It gave me a kind of energy, It made me 364 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: feel like stronger and more. 365 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. 366 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 2: But my goal with going into it, I don't think 367 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 2: it was ever. I wanted to be a different person. 368 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 2: I wanted to change who I was, So I wasn't 369 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: really thinking about whether how my voice was changing, or 370 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: like my new body hair or the changes going on 371 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: with my like anatomy were making me happier. That wasn't 372 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: something I was really concerned with or thinking about. It 373 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: was I look different, I sound different, So I'm that 374 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: was the goal in and of itself was not looking 375 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: and sounding like me anymore? 376 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: When did you decide to go for the mess deck? 377 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: To me, that was something that I wanted to begin with. 378 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: I told the therapist and the psychologist at the gender 379 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 2: clinic that I wanted that the first time I met 380 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 2: with them, and. 381 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: Mainly because you had already had this, you know, and 382 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: you didn't weren't happy with your rests for years at 383 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: this point, before you even started having conversations about being 384 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: gender fluid or whatever it is, you didn't like having 385 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: your breasts. 386 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I started developing at 387 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 2: nine years old. It was fairly early and fast, and 388 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: by the time I was fourteen and going in for 389 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: the mest deck to me, I had like triple D breasts. 390 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 2: They removed almost ten pounds of tissue. 391 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: At any point, did the plastic surgeon to perform this 392 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: have any conversations with you about a reduction because you 393 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: had such large breasts, saying perhaps we start with a 394 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: reduction to give you normal size breast for your age 395 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: and go from there. Or was that ebra conversation. 396 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 2: No, I didn't learn what a breast reduction was until 397 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 2: almost two years after I had the mistedactomy. 398 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: This was a plastic surgeon, just a local plastic sergeon. 399 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He was local renowned surgeon that I 400 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: was aware of. Since sort of looking into this phenomenon more, 401 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: I've learned that he was actually the third most prolific 402 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: provider of transgender surgeries on children, according to the Juno 403 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 2: harm database. So he was busy. 404 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: So you had your double mastect to me, what was 405 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: that like when you woke up? 406 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: It was I was on a significant amount of psychiatric 407 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: medication at the time. I was on adderall for ADHD 408 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: and Wellbutrin and Zoloft. I don't remember if I was 409 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: on zoloft or Lexebra at that time, but I was 410 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 2: on one of those, and the well Buttrin and the 411 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 2: SSRI were for anxiety and depression, and I was on 412 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: fairly high doses of these, so I didn't really have 413 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: many strong feelings about anything. I remember the day that 414 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: I got the bandages taken off after the mastectomy, because 415 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 2: you know, it wrapped really tightly in a spandages and 416 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 2: like sort of a post surgical compression shirt, and I 417 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 2: cried that day. Sort of everyone in the room assumed 418 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: that it was happy tears like relief, but I'm not 419 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 2: sure really what I was feeling. It wasn't long after 420 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: the surgery that I started being ashamed of the way 421 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: that it looked. 422 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: Mess deectomy scars are quite people think, you know, for 423 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: some who get the reconstruction, it's just like getting a 424 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: boob job, but it's absolutely not. I mean, they are 425 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: Franklin's Steyning scars all across your entire chess like it is. 426 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: It's quite jar. 427 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: I looked like I was sawed in half. I mean, 428 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: like I said, I had very large breasts. My scars 429 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: went from like towards the back of my under arms 430 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: all the way and they almost connect in the middle. 431 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: And there was issues post of the surgeon that I 432 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 2: went to does drains free procedures, and so I had 433 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: a lot of bruising and swelling because the fluid didn't 434 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: really have anywhere to go, and that also caused the 435 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 2: nipple grafts that I got to reject. And I didn't 436 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: know that that was like an increased risk due to 437 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 2: the drains free procedure. I knew that like there obviously 438 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: with any surgery there's a risk of like excessive swelling 439 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: or like internal bleeding. But I didn't realize that the 440 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 2: specific kind of surgery that I was having was a 441 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 2: more serious risk of that. 442 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: And he told you that there is a risk of 443 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: losing those nipple graphs them not working. 444 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: Yes, but I was told on that it was around 445 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 2: like two percent of surgeries that have this. It's actually 446 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: significantly more common among the drains free procedures. And I 447 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 2: was told that it's almost only observable. It almost exclusively 448 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 2: happens among people who smoke. And I was fourteen at 449 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 2: and never touched a cigarette before, so I wasn't concerned 450 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: about it. It wasn't really on my RDAR as a real risk. 451 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: So after your scars healed, and now you had been 452 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 1: on hormones, so you've done chemical alterations, now you've done 453 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: some surgical alterations. Were you able to get off all 454 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: of those medications that you were on for your anxiety 455 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: and your depression? You had your family accepting you, obviously, 456 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: that's how you were able to get this done. Your school, 457 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: your friends were all accepting this. You were reaching your 458 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: goals of becoming quote unquote transgender. Did all of those 459 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: mental health issues miraculously go away? 460 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: No? I remained on the anti depressant, so the amount 461 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 2: of psychiatric medication that I was on went up significantly. 462 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: After all of this, they took sort of surveys at 463 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 2: each I had to go to the gender clinic every 464 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: three months so they could assess my blood work. And 465 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 2: when I would go to these appointments, they would give 466 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: me a little questionnaire where I would ask me, have 467 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 2: you had suicidal thoughts in the last thirty days? Have 468 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 2: you thought of yourself as a burden or that it 469 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: would be better if you weren't here in the past 470 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: thirty days, et cetera. And like I've gotten my records 471 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: now and I've looked at them, and those questionnaires showed 472 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 2: that at first, it's a score out of ten, at 473 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: the ten being the highest risk for like suicide, the 474 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: most unwell, and zero being the least. My first appointment, 475 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 2: I was like a three, and then it went down 476 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 2: to zero, and then it slowly getting out to zero, 477 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: climbed at the first follow up appointment when I was 478 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: after your surgery, after I started the hormones, after the hormones, okay, okay, 479 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 2: and then it steadily got worse. 480 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: Maybe the excitement of it, all of this new, something new, 481 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: helped those scores, but then reality say and realizing it 482 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: didn't really. 483 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: Affect and you know, from one to three months, zero 484 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 2: to three months, there's not significant changes to the body. 485 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: Whenever you start at the dose that I was starting on. 486 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: I was fourteen. They didn't need to put me on 487 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 2: an adult dose. At three months. My voice was barely 488 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 2: starting to change. There was barely a difference in like anything. Really, 489 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: I just felt better because I was developing muscle faster 490 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: and like I had more energy. And then reality started 491 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 2: kicking in. I started there was pain a lot of 492 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 2: the time, like in my pelvic floor. There was serious 493 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 2: cramping just randomly throughout the day. I would get hot flashes. 494 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: My throat just hurt all the time. And they told 495 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: me that this was all normal and that it would 496 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: get better. But it never got better. 497 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to wellness and mass. We'll be right back 498 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: with more. So at what point after some of these 499 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: medical interventions did you start questioning them? 500 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,479 Speaker 2: Stopped taking the testosterone shortly before I turned seventeen, so 501 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: a little bit before I would have been three years 502 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: on them. 503 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: How long after the surgery was that. 504 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: I had the surgery six months after I started the hormones, 505 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 2: So like two and a half yearssh, that's when I 506 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: stopped taking the hormones. But I didn't I'm not really 507 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: sure what I was feeling internally. I was still on 508 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: a significant amount of psychiatric drugs. I was still like, 509 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 2: I wasn't in therapy at this point. I stopped seeing 510 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 2: the therapists before I even had this surgery, so I 511 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: was kind of just coasting and numb due to the medications. 512 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: Who was responding all these medications. 513 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 2: I had a psychiatrist, but really those were just like 514 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: fifteen minute appointments every month or so to refill the drugs. 515 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 2: It wasn't a therapeutic relationship. And whenever I stopped taking 516 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: the hormones, I'm not sure what I was feeling internally 517 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: about it. But what I told the gender clinic and 518 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: what I told my parents was that I just liked 519 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: where my voice was and I didn't want it to 520 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: change anymore, and I didn't want any more body hair, 521 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,239 Speaker 2: and that I was concerned about being able to have 522 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: children in the future, and so that's why I stopped 523 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: taking them. 524 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: So you stopped taking them because you're satisfied with how 525 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: you looked at that time. But also it started, you know, 526 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: you started wondering about having kids in the future. Yeah, 527 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: what were your parents like when you decided to stop? 528 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: This was never something that we talked about extensively together. 529 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: I've never really had a very open relationship with my parents. 530 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: They kind of outsourced that to my therapists. But I 531 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: mean at this point, I wasn't seeing a therapist, so 532 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: I was kind of just talking about it with my 533 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: friends or like thinking about it myself. I don't really 534 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: have a documentation. I don't remember really the. 535 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: Friends that were in this friend group of yours who 536 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: were also kind of going through at the same time, 537 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: did they do the same thing as you go to 538 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: the gender clinic, hormones surgery or you know where. 539 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 2: Were you at a level? There was like a little 540 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: less than a year where my parents ignored it mostly 541 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 2: that this was all happening, And that's mostly but my 542 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: friend's parents did They just like pretended it wasn't happening 543 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 2: and assumed that it would go away on its own, 544 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: and they were right. These girls that I was friends with, 545 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: two of them still identify as non binary, but like 546 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: fully present as girls or women. 547 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: Now. 548 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: There was I had one friend who still identifies as 549 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: trans and is medicalized now as an adult. 550 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: Do you think you pursued it at such a young 551 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: age and they did not? What pathway kind of pushed 552 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 1: you to go to the gender clinic? 553 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: I was sent to the wrong therapist, is really the 554 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: only difference. My friends, their parents either ignored it or 555 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: sent them to therapists who took a more cautious approach 556 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: who said, you know, let's wait a couple of years 557 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,239 Speaker 2: and revisit, see how you feel about it then, or 558 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: recommended against tried to help them feel better about how 559 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: they were. And I got taken to a therapist who 560 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: told me within within a month of meeting me that 561 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: this was for sure the right choice for me. And 562 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: that was really the only difference. No one like I 563 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: was going to this support group for families with trans kids. 564 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: You would not have looked at me compared to any 565 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: of these other kids and said this one's special in 566 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 2: any way. You wouldn't have looked at me and said 567 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: this one is for sure trands and all the rests aren't. 568 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: And you also would not have looked at them and 569 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: me and said, this one's going to de transition in 570 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 2: the future, and the rest aren't we were the same. 571 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: You said something very interesting right there where you said 572 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: there's nothing special about you, which, by the way, as 573 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: a mother, I hate hearing the young person say that. 574 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: But I understand what you were saying in the sense 575 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: that you looked around the room, you know, everyone was 576 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: kind of in a similar state. I find it very 577 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: interesting that you were in this friend group. You were 578 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: all kind of trying out this fad and this trend, 579 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: and it was all about who you went to one 580 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: how the parents responded, and it seems like they all 581 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: kind of did the same thing. They're like, we're going 582 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,239 Speaker 1: to ignore it, just like we do a lot of 583 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: other things that our kids are doing at that time 584 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: that we know are probably just a trend. But the 585 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: therapist that you went to, instead of really just talking 586 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: to you about all the things that you were going through, 587 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: the eating disorder, the cutting, the medication you're on, they're like, 588 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: we're just going to double down on this idea of 589 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: being trans and kind of like leading you blindly through 590 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: this venture instead of actually looking at the root causes 591 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: of yourself. 592 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there wasn't. I wasn't the worst cutter. 593 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: I didn't have the most obvious dangerous eating disorder. I 594 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: wasn't uniquely suffering. I was. I was a particularly edgy 595 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 2: teenager angsty, but I wasn't unique in that way. All 596 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: the kids around me were, and all of them, except 597 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 2: one or three, depending on how you want to look 598 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: at it, have desisted there Only one of them is 599 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: presenting as trans still, and this is out of like 600 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: twenty kids. 601 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: Maybe so. You had been on the hormones for a 602 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: few years, you had your bilodal messtectomy. You decided it 603 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: that some point after a couple of years after that, 604 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: you wanted to stop the hormones. You were okay with 605 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: where your body was, Your mental health medications were higher 606 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: doses than they had been before. You certainly didn't have 607 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: a relief from your mental self. At what point did 608 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: you kind of look at the situation or did you 609 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: ever feel like maybe this was a mistake. 610 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: I would not have used that language. At some point 611 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 2: I realized this wasn't for me. The point where I 612 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 2: started presenting more as a girl again was shortly after 613 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: I stopped taking the hormones. I was either sixteen or seventeen, 614 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 2: and I got my first crush on a boy, like 615 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 2: a real crush, and I realized at that point that 616 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: I wanted him to treat me like a girl that 617 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: I wanted to like, be courted. I guess could say, 618 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 2: did he know you as Tyler when he first met me? Yes? 619 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: But shortly after I met him, I started going by 620 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 2: a more feminine name, and I think I started calling 621 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 2: myself non binary. 622 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: Then I go back to your actual given birth name, 623 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: or did you come up with a different name. 624 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 2: I came up with a different name that was kind 625 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: of androgynous, but feminine for certain, And like I started, 626 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: I started. I was kind of goth at this point, 627 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 2: so it wasn't terribly unusual for someone that is seen 628 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: as a guy to be wearing like eyeliner. But I 629 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 2: started wearing makeup, and eventually I started wearing dresses and 630 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: just progressively more and more feminine. 631 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: So I have a question for you. Were you wanting 632 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: to be feminine because you were wanting to be a girl, 633 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: or like wearing dresses and makeup like Harry Styles and 634 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 1: Bad Bunny Do. 635 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: Just to be ironic, I wanted to be seen as 636 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 2: a girl, particularly by this specific boy. Shortly after this 637 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 2: all started happening, there was this was twenty twenty two 638 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: or twenty twenty three, not exactly sure. They the Attorney 639 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 2: General Ken Paxton of Texas put out a notice basically 640 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 2: that transitioning children already counted as child abuse under the 641 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: state's definition. They hadn't passed a law yet saying that 642 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 2: it was illegal to transition kids medically, so it wasn't 643 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 2: a crime for the doctors at this point. And so 644 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 2: whenever you say that, what that means is that the 645 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 2: parents are going to get investigated. And my mom worked 646 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 2: as a guidance counselor at a middle school, and if 647 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 2: you have an open CPS case against you, you can 648 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: lose your job. And so we sort of overnight just 649 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 2: packed everything up and moved to Maryland, where my older 650 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: sister lives, and I started at a whole new school. 651 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 2: And I was like, I was, I had been off 652 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 2: of the hormones for a good few months at this point, 653 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 2: and I just started the new school as a girl. 654 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: And what did you call yourself? So why didn't you 655 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: go back to your original name? 656 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: Because I was scared. I think I was scared of 657 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: really acknowledging it. There were a lot of memories associated 658 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: with the name as well, but I didn't want to 659 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 2: bring up. Basically, at some point, when I was seventeen, 660 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 2: I started looking into breast reconstruction and I called three 661 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: different surgeons and none of them would have a consultation 662 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: with me. They wouldn't even like talk to me on 663 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 2: the phone because I wasn't eight but I was three 664 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 2: years post postectomy. And then when I was eighteen, I 665 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 2: ended up having the reconstruction. I mean, at this point 666 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 2: I still didn't recognize they didn't see the forest for 667 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 2: the trees. Basically, it was wrong for me. It wasn't 668 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 2: the right choice for me. My doctors were too hasty. 669 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: My doctors didn't assess me properly. Not maybe this is 670 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: bad to do to kids. That didn't come until nineteen 671 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 2: twenty December of twenty twenty four, I went to my 672 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,479 Speaker 2: first public event as a D transitioner. It was the 673 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 2: Scurmetti Rally outside the US Capital and I met other 674 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,240 Speaker 2: D transitioners for the first time. I met Elle Palmer 675 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: that day, and Laura Becker and Chloe Cole and we 676 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 2: all just like hit it all off immediately. We were 677 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 2: all of us had such similar stories, like we all 678 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 2: it was like we were all being made in the 679 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: same factory. We were so similar, and at that point 680 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 2: I realized that it wasn't me, it wasn't that my 681 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 2: doctors were bad, because I mean, Elle is from Montana, 682 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: Chloe's from California, Laura's from well now she lives in Arizona. 683 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: I'm not sure where she's from. Originally, this is all 684 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: across the country that this is happening, that the exact 685 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: same type of girl is getting put down this pathway 686 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 2: so fast, And at that point it became impossible to 687 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 2: deny anymore, that to just write it off as I 688 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 2: had a bad doctor. I realized at that point that 689 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 2: there was a fundamental flaw in the system. 690 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: Makes the line this isn't just a moment, it's a 691 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: movement stand true. It's pretty good realization, I think. So 692 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: you've obviously come out public about this, and not in 693 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: a preachy way of you can't do this. You're not 694 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: trying to seem superior to anybody else. You're just wanting 695 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: to get the truth out there and talk about yourslf. 696 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: You know, what is your message to parents? I mean, 697 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: I have colleagues who have children who are they consider 698 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: themselves trans or they're talking about it. You know, I 699 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: have friends who know. You know, for anybody listening here, like, 700 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: what is your message when someone comes to them, particularly 701 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: a child? You know, I'm not necessarily talking about the 702 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 1: adults at this point. Adults can do what they want 703 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: to do. I don't agree with what they do in 704 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: various forms, but particularly when it comes to kids who 705 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: are having the conversation about being trans what's your message? 706 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 2: There is no one answer, there's no one good course 707 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 2: of action. Every child gets into this because they're hurting, 708 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 2: and you have to have the strength the bravery to 709 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 2: listen to what your child is saying and to what 710 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 2: the culture is telling you is the correct thing to do. 711 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: And you have to say that you know your child best. 712 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 2: If you're a parent, you have to be willing to 713 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 2: listen to what the actual cause of these issues is. 714 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 2: You have to interrogate that. You can't just go along 715 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 2: with what your child says. That's not Children are still learning, 716 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 2: they're testing the waters of what they can get away with, 717 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,879 Speaker 2: what is acceptable, and you have to guide them in that. 718 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 2: You can't let them take the reins on something as 719 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 2: consequential as removing healthy parts of their body, or like 720 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 2: permanently changing their voice in the way their reproductive anatomy works. 721 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,240 Speaker 2: It's not a child's choice. It's not something a child 722 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 2: can consent or agree to. You have to be the 723 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 2: adult in the room. 724 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: Are you doing now with some of your mental health 725 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 1: struggles as you have gone through all of these various transitions. 726 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 2: Well, I'm not on psychiatric medication anymore. Have had a 727 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,879 Speaker 2: rough year, we'll say, but I am in a much 728 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 2: better place than I was when all of this was 729 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 2: going down. I'm living in reality now. I'm confronting the 730 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 2: actual things that led me to this point to begin with, 731 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 2: instead of looking for a band aid solution that will 732 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 2: like that was what the transition was, and that was 733 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 2: what really the early stages of my d transition were 734 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 2: as well. I was trying to cover up my issues. 735 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 2: I was trying to hide from them and not have 736 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 2: to address the meat of the problem. And I've moved 737 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,879 Speaker 2: past that now and I can say that I am 738 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 2: a woman and that I always will be, and that 739 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 2: I'm happy the way that I am, and that I 740 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 2: like who I am. 741 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: To hear that, Thank you so much for being so 742 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: raw and so honest with us today. I think it's 743 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: just really important that people understand some of these terms 744 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: and what people go through, because we kind of chalk 745 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: it up and say, well, it's just a fad, it's 746 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: just a trend. But these are people's lives that we're 747 00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: talking about, and it's just very important to approach them cautiously. 748 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 749 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,879 Speaker 1: That was a very heavy conversation, but it was raw, 750 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: it was honest, and its reality, and it's not just 751 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: as Claire said, she's not the only one who's struggling 752 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: with it. She actually met some of her people. She 753 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 1: said it felt like they were made from the same factory. 754 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: There's a lot of kids out there who are struggling, 755 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, there are silos right now of getting these 756 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: kids into gender clinics and surgeries and all of these 757 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: medical interventions that can be permanent. In Claire's situation, you know, 758 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: she had a bilateral mass ectomy and it's all started 759 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 1: really because she hated having such a large chest at 760 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: an early age. Yes, she struggled from mental illness, but 761 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: at what point, why didn't someone have that conversation with 762 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: her about a breast reduction. Why was the only the 763 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: only solution for her was to take off her breasts entirely. 764 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: It's very sad, and I'll tell you it really broke 765 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: my heart many times throughout that interview to hear her 766 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: talk about how she didn't like herself. She kept wanting 767 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: to change her name because of bad memories, and what 768 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: I heard over and over again from Claire was that 769 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: she was just trying to be somebody else. And as 770 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: a mom, that just breaks my heart because all we 771 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: want is for our kids to be healthy, happy and safe, 772 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: and so if a child is feeling uncomfortable in their 773 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: own skin, as a parent, as the adults around her, 774 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: as the medical professionals, she needed to be worked with 775 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: on a much deeper level to get her to the 776 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: place where she feels comfortable in her own skin. There 777 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: are no amount of plastic surgeries that is going to 778 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: ever make someone feel good about themselves. That's why we 779 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: have body dysmorphic disorder, and you see people who are 780 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: addicted to plastic surgery. A lot of these transgender medical 781 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: interventions are the exact same way. It's just another pathway 782 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: of promoting body dysmorphic disorder, and we have to focus 783 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: on the mental health and our youth. It has gotten 784 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: so much worse than it was ten twenty years ago, 785 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of this has to do with the 786 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: online communities, social media, COVID and if we don't declare 787 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,360 Speaker 1: mental health to be a national emergency in our youth, 788 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: this will only get worse and we will only see 789 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: more people suffering. Thank you so much for tuning in 790 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 1: to Wellness un Mass with Doctor Nicole Sapphire. I am 791 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: doctor Nicole Sapphire. Be sure to tune in every week 792 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.