1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: Let me tell you we have a new star. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 3: A star is born Elon On Mars Juthan Kennemy. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 4: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 5: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 5: I feel for the guy. 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 3: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 6: But those two percent. 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 4: That are nasty, they are our pit in four post. 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 5: We were meant for great things in the United States 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 5: of America, and Elon reminds us of that. 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: I'm very disappointed in Elan. 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 7: I've helped Elon a lot. 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 5: Welcome to Elan and Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 5: It's Tuesday, June twenty fourth. I'm your host, David Popadopoulos. 16 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 5: So over the weekend, while the world was transfixed by 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 5: the war raging in the Middle East, US quietly rolled 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 5: out the Tesla robotaxi on the mean streets of Austin, Texas. 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 5: It didn't stay quiet for long though. In fact, it 20 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 5: sounded a little like. 21 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 3: This, This is a big day for Tesla robo taxi 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 3: experience is. 23 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 5: About to be crazy. 24 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 3: We are fastened, we have our location here estimated rival 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 3: start ride. Our ride is complete, but it looks like 26 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 3: the Robotaxi is waiting for its next call. 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 5: Bloomberg EV reporter Kara Carlson was there for it all, 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 5: and she makes her elon Ink debut today to tell 29 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 5: us about it. Welcome to the show, Kara. 30 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me. 31 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 5: Then later on, our man Kurt Wagner, just off the 32 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 5: plane from the French Riviera, will join us to break 33 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 5: down Ex's participation or perhaps absence, from the all important 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 5: Lions Advertising Festival. Of course, an episode of elon Ink 35 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 5: ain't an episode of elon Ink without the pre one, 36 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 5: Max Chafkin. 37 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 3: I was wondering who if you were going to introduce 38 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: me or what here? I was very patiently. 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 5: You were nervous, worried. All right, So Max will have 40 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 5: for you today, in no particular order, reports on enchiladas, 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 5: exploding rockets in Musk's odd computer situation. But we do 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 5: indeed start in Austin with you, Kara. You were there 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 5: for the launch on Sunday. What did you see? 44 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I started off bright and early. 45 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: You know, six am is when they were potentially going 46 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: to start launching, So I didn't see any four hours 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: they end up launching it about too. But I live 48 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: in one of the neighborhoods they're launching, so I actually 49 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: was seeing some of their vehicles just driving around, you know, 50 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: my neighborhood streets in the morning as we were waiting 51 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: and watching streams. I ended up watching the first three 52 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: rides through the stream of some of these people with 53 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: early access before heading out, and there was only a 54 00:02:58,320 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 2: few cars out, so it was actually a bit of 55 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 2: a game to try to find any of them. 56 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 5: Okay, So in other words, like there was no starter gun, 57 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 5: there was no pomp and circumstance or a hype man, 58 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 5: there was no musk, there was nothing that said the 59 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 5: Robotaxi launch. 60 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: No. 61 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 5: Suddenly they just started popping up here and there. 62 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, they've been in areas of south and southeast Austin 63 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: for a few months now. They're not labeled Robotaxi, the 64 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 2: ones they've been using for testing. They're just model wise 65 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: that they just recently refreshed. And I started noticing there's 66 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: a lot with you know, manufacturer plates just kind of 67 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: popping up. Sometimes they had some roof racks with sensors 68 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: on them. They're just kind of driving around. I think, 69 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: you know, Elon Musk said, they're driving around in circles, 70 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: and that really is what some of these neighborhoods have 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: felt like we. 72 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: Should probably just like lay out the basics of this launch. 73 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: Kara mentioned it very small number of cars. I think 74 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 3: we think, what like about ten, Tara, is that right. 75 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 4: About ten to twenty? I would say from what I observed, 76 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 4: that feels like the right number. And that's what Tesla's 77 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 4: said before. 78 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: I feel like you maybe saw every single one of them. 79 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 3: Very small area, I mean, you know, it doesn't include 80 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: downtown Austin. And really importantly, there was a safety monitor 81 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: in the passenger seat, which so a guy sitting in 82 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: the passenger seat, not behind the wheel, but somehow babysitting 83 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 3: in the car. In a lot of these videos, the 84 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: safety monitor has his finger on a button which I 85 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 3: think most people assume is an emergency brake. Yeah, it's 86 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: the it's the button that kills you if you tweet 87 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 3: something mean about the ROBOTAXI while you're in it. 88 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 5: Uh wait, women, so literally the whole time he or 89 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 5: she has their finger like just hovering over the button. 90 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, or or just kind of on it. It seems 91 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 3: like there may have been some other types of you know, 92 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 3: controls or ways to provide input in the vehicle. You 93 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: also have, at least according to statements that that Musk 94 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 3: and others have made you know, on the earnings call, 95 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: some tele operation as well, So they're probably in addition 96 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 3: to that safety monitor is a guy sitting at a 97 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: desk watching the ride who is also able to intervene 98 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 3: one way or another world. I don't think we know 99 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: exactly what that intervention could be. It could be anywhere 100 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 3: from sort of giving the ROBOTAXI some commands or suggestions 101 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 3: all the way to you know, maybe a steering wheel 102 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 3: or whatever where where that person could literally take you. 103 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 3: But we don't know exactly what That tele operation. 104 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 5: A lot of supervision. Now, obviously the idea is at 105 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 5: some point, once this thing gets you know, a little 106 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 5: more experience out there, the training wheels come off and 107 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 5: it's out on its own in the wild. Now, Kara, 108 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 5: who got to take these initial rides? Was it just 109 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 5: picking up random strangers on the street. 110 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: So Friday night, a bunch of Tesla influencers and retail investors, 111 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: and these are accounts that you know, really are interacting 112 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: with Elon Musk get interacting with a lot of like 113 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 2: Tesla News at all times. That's kind of whole brand. 114 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: Got emails that said you have early access to the 115 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: Robotaxi starting Sunday, and then you know, some other Tesla 116 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: fans ended up coming in and kind of going as 117 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: their plus ones. 118 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 4: They were allowed one guest per. 119 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 2: Ride, but it was really just a handful of pretty 120 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 2: loyal influencers for the most part. 121 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: These are not like automotive influencers like we've seen Elon 122 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: Musk kind of include like these sort of YouTubers who 123 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: review cars and stuff in at you know, at at 124 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 3: at earnings calls and so on. This was like Elon 125 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 3: Musk influencers. These are people who are very, very very 126 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: enthusiastically on the Musk train, which Karen and I found 127 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: out when we tried to be asked them if they 128 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 3: would take us as their their plus one and were 129 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 3: at least in my chance in hell, yeah, repeatedly denied. 130 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 5: Right, Well, I can't blame them in your case now, 131 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 5: I don't care. I'm just getting to know you. But 132 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 5: in Max's case, yeah no, I also wouldn't ride in 133 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 5: a vehicle with you, all right, So how in general 134 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 5: these vehicles perform and how are they continuing to perform. 135 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 5: There has been there have been some videos that have 136 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 5: started to go a bit viral about some unconventional, shall 137 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 5: we say, driving techniques. But on the whole and these 138 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 5: things held up okay so far. 139 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 4: They drive pretty much as any other car. 140 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: They you know, they were doing pretty predictable driving behavior 141 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: when we were following them around. But there have been 142 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: a few videos that have shown some concerning behavior. There's 143 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: been some mild speeding, you know, a few miles over 144 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: the limit, which people are you know, humans too too, 145 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: but it is strange for a robotaxi to speed typically. 146 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: There's been one instance that a lot of people have 147 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: poined us particularly concerning. So there's a vehicle that was 148 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: starting to turn left, peared to maybe decided it was 149 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: going to go straight instead, and the spearing wheel really 150 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: jerked around and it started to go straight instead, and 151 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: it was going in the wrong direction, in the wrong 152 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: lane for a few seconds there and then. 153 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 5: Got well, wait, so it was going into potentially into 154 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 5: oncoming traffic, did go it did go in downcom then, 155 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 5: but then it got it right two hours later, figured 156 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 5: it out. 157 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: It got back into them. 158 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 5: Well that doesn't sound good. 159 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: I mean, I almost feel like I don't need to 160 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: say this, but this is very much a demonstration, in 161 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: a very controlled demonstration, so we're evaluating it. So so 162 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 3: part of why Kara is bringing up these like what 163 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 3: they sound like very minor examples, and they are, except that, like, 164 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: this is a situation where you're where there is a 165 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: ton of monitoring, where they're where the roots have been 166 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: traveled over many times, where it's like a very controlled 167 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 3: and we're even getting the information we're getting from these 168 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: rides is also very controlled because it's being filtered through 169 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 3: these fans. But the thing is, like what they've done 170 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 3: here really is a long way from what Elon Musk 171 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: has said they're going to do, and what he said 172 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 3: they're going to do, just to remind people, is to 173 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 3: be able to have any tesla anywhere driving around unsupervised. 174 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: None of that is true right now. There is a 175 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 3: very small geographic area, a very small fleet, and there 176 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 3: is a ton of supervision, and I think it would 177 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: have been it would have been surprising if something really 178 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 3: bad happened with these tests. Even these minor, you know, 179 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 3: screw ups are a little bit surprising just because again, 180 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 3: this is not all that different from what we saw 181 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 3: in October, you know on the soundstage, right, it's just 182 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 3: like a charger version of that thing, and which, okay, 183 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: maybe that's some progress, but still. 184 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 5: Right, which gets me to the next point, Cara, which 185 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 5: is despite how sort of you know, just okay, this 186 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 5: whole launch seemed the stock really popped yesterday Tesla stock 187 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 5: did it? It rallied eight percent, which by Tesla standards 188 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 5: because it's a very volatile stock, it's not some enormous move, 189 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 5: and yet eight percent is eight percent. It's certainly did 190 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 5: not go down, So I guess the market market's first 191 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 5: take is like, wow, this is great, big hit. 192 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is an event that people have 193 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 2: been waiting years and years for. Elon Musk has really 194 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: bet the entire company on autonomy, on AI, on the 195 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: ability to launch a network like this, and investors are 196 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: just glad it's meeting that mark on. 197 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 4: A lot of levels. They will be closely watching to 198 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 4: see if it actually can scale from here. 199 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 2: Is something that even the most polish investers are really 200 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: keeping an eye on right now. 201 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 3: Though, Yeah, I mean, is is ten percent in a 202 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 3: day for Tesla a huge move. That's like it's like 203 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 3: a Wednesday or something. 204 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 5: You know, it's nothing. Esha Day Bloomberg Tesla reporter told 205 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 5: me she doesn't even get up for an eight percent move. 206 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 5: She's Tesla, right, you yeah, for most other stocks, but no, 207 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 5: so yes, correct. 208 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 3: Look, the other thing is for this stock, eight percent 209 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 3: is not a huge jump. This is a very volatile stock. 210 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: But also like there were versions of this day that 211 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 3: could have been a lot worse. Right, One thing that 212 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: has surprised me, frankly, is how cautious Elon Musk is 213 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 3: being with this launch, like it in certain ways, like, yes, 214 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: he's putting these cars that in a lot of ways 215 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 3: don't seem to do the thing that he says they're 216 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 3: do on public roads. On the other hand, he's kept 217 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: this to be a very modest demo, I think, much 218 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 3: more modest than anybody believed or anybody would have thought. 219 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 3: Like he's he's talking about teleoperation, which is something that 220 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 3: it hadn't talked about before, or he had said if 221 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: if there was tele operation, that would be a bad sign. 222 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 3: So in other words, like he's being safe at least 223 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: or maybe safer than he otherwise could have been or 224 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 3: some of his actions like we didn't see as you know, 225 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: maybe concerning or whatever. As the incident we talked about 226 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: with the Tesla crossing over the double line is you know, 227 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 3: there wasn't anything worse. So maybe it's slightly beat expectations 228 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: that some people had. 229 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 5: I do think apparently the bar was pretty damn. 230 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 3: Well, I'm say a very low bar. But I'm they're 231 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: also maybe like the enthusiasm may fade because like the 232 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,959 Speaker 3: novelty here of being able to drive like from one 233 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: end of part of Austin to the other, it's is 234 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 3: gonna face. 235 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like the boring company right where you can 236 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 5: go from what I want. 237 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 3: One end of the yea from the Las Vegas Convention 238 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: Center to the resorts world. 239 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 5: You know, Max, last week when you launched your acronym 240 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 5: a report. 241 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: Talking about mammoot or Madra, there were multiple, right, there 242 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 3: were two, you had two. It was a two fer. 243 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 5: I must forgot about Madra no when you were Okay, 244 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 5: so when you were launching your acronyms, a bit of 245 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 5: a riff on Taco, Trump always chickens out. Hence uh 246 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 5: stock investors by stocks, we had asked our listeners our 247 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 5: legions of listeners to put forth any ideas they may 248 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 5: have for acronyms that could improve upon if such a 249 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 5: thing could be done that would improve upon mammoot. And 250 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 5: you know we got a brilliant idea. 251 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, we got some fun responses. My favorite and Grant, 252 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 3: who responded with a lot of good ideas, but also 253 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 3: complaining that we hadn't seen that he had his own acronym, 254 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: which was enchilagaha. 255 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 5: Way, so he launched it. He alleges he launched it before. 256 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 6: Unfortunately, the time stamps uh confirm his his his launch 257 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 6: uh elon never completes his innovative level for autonomous driving 258 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 6: announcements enchilada. 259 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: Uh. 260 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 3: This guy obviously, you know, something of a bear. I 261 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: would I would guess. He also, in response to mamoot, 262 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: which he thought was, you know, insufficiently creative, uh, suggested 263 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 3: a few others with the help I believe of chat Ept, 264 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 3: including and now these are replacements for mamoot, which was 265 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 3: musk always makes up with Trump. These include kso Coral 266 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: until eventually snuggling online salsa spats are loud. Still amigos 267 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 3: guawk grudges usually aren't consistent. Burrito billionaires ultimately reconcile, regardless 268 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: of Internet tempestuous outbursts. None of them are perfect. But Grant, 269 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 3: thank you Grants for these ideas. They are all hilarious, 270 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 3: and I regret missing Enchilada. 271 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 5: Grant's given this a lot of thought. 272 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 3: I know a lot to work with. 273 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 5: I like just about all of them, Enchillada in particular 274 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 5: because there's a just a mouthful quile. It's very long, 275 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 5: it's slightly incomprehensible. Elon never completes his innovative level four 276 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 5: autonomous driving announcements. That's all good, But Kara, now that 277 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 5: the robotaxi is is roaming the streets of Austin, is 278 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 5: that still true? Is en shallota truer? Was the acronym 279 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 5: launched only immediately to be vanquished, defeated and go away? 280 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 4: I think it depends on kind of where we go 281 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 4: from here. 282 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, no, depends well. 283 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 4: Level of autonomy they're using. 284 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: They haven't actually revealed a lot about what kind of 285 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: the text stack behind this. 286 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 5: Looks like level four autonomy is like a lot of 287 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 5: are you doing it. 288 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: Without any kind of supervision? I don't think this counts. 289 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: He's good, Kara, You think there's even a question here. 290 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: I think we need to wait and see what level 291 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: of autonomy they claim it to be, and they will 292 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: have to self report in the very least suite to Texas. 293 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 5: Well, wait a minute, but if there's a dude in 294 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 5: the vehicle with his finger always hovering over the emergency 295 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 5: eject button, I don't know. I mean that doesn't sound 296 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 5: I think Grant's good. I think is good now for now. Okay, 297 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 5: very good, Cara. We will talk again soon. 298 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: So good. 299 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 5: We are now joined by Bloomberg ex reporter Kurt Wagner. Kurt, 300 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 5: welcome back to the show. 301 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: Hi David, thank you for having me, so. 302 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 5: Listen, Kurt. Let me just get this out of the 303 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 5: way and get it off my chest. But fuck you, Kurt. 304 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 7: Okay, Max and I been sweating it out on the 305 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 7: mean streets of Manhattan, earning an honest living, and you're 306 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 7: sipping Royal vespers and taking in the sea breeze at 307 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 7: La Belle Epoc. 308 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 5: What kind of gig is this that you have? 309 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: I feel like this wasn't even the worst introduction you've 310 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: ever given me on this show, so I feel like, 311 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: you know, by that standard, I'm actually moving up in 312 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: the world. That's right, David. While you were sweating here 313 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: in New York, I was sweating in the south of France. 314 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: And it's a hard life out there, you know, you 315 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: get up early at the meetings. 316 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 5: You know, looking out at the French River. 317 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: I expect you to understand. But yes, I was at 318 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: Canlon's last week, the Wonderful Advertising Festival. For those who 319 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: are unfamiliar, it's essentially everybody in the world who is 320 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: involved in the ad industry, from you know, the big 321 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: players like the Metas and Youtubes and Googles of the world, 322 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: to these agencies to the creators who are now making 323 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: a living on this. They all show up and and 324 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: spend a week together sort of cutting deals and boondoggling 325 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. So it was a 326 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: good time. 327 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 5: Now, what was Ex's presence there, because I feel like 328 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 5: just last year its presence was kind of odd, unique, 329 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 5: and how did it play out this year? 330 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: So last year was interesting because Elon showed up himself 331 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: and I believe he did a keynote with WPP, one 332 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: of the largest ad agencies in the world, I believe, 333 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: the largest ad agency, and he kind of signaled, hey, 334 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: this is important to me by physically showing up and 335 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: giving his time. In years past, X formerly known as Twitter, 336 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: had literally like a beachside setup, you know, they set 337 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: up there was a concerts that they had, they would 338 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: hold the all there. I was. That was back in 339 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: the day. This was you know, pre COVID. When I 340 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: was there this week, I did not see a single 341 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: X branded sign throughout the entire conference. Just to give 342 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: you a sense, like TikTok took over an entire hotel, 343 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 1: essentially Meta takes over multiple floors of a hotel, has 344 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: a giant beachside thing, you know, like everyone is throwing 345 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: their logo in your face. Essentially you can't walk down 346 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: the street without seeing these things, just just like right 347 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: in front of you. X was nowhere to be seen. 348 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: And I thought that was very notable. 349 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 5: So how do I interpret this, Kurt? Are they just 350 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 5: giving up? What does this mean? 351 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 3: So there's two ways. 352 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: I think there's a I'll give maybe the positive X 353 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: version and the more critical X version. 354 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 3: I think the. 355 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: Positive is it's not very doge to go to can 356 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: right like it is not. 357 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 5: For all the reasons I stated at the time. 358 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Saysten, we're cutting We're cutting into it a 359 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: little bit. Okay, fine, I'll admit it's not the most 360 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: doge thing to go to. Can It's it's definitely a show, right, 361 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: It's a it's a bit of a circus. And so 362 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: if you are X and Elon is running your company, 363 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: maybe the last thing you want to do is be 364 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: seen out here kind of frivolously spending money for a 365 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: Diplo concert on the beach. I shouldn't say that Yahoo 366 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: hosted a Diplo concert. I did go and it was 367 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: pretty fun, so, you know, sorry for sorry to use 368 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: that as the example. Yah was a great time. But 369 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: my point is like, maybe Elon is not wanting to 370 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: be seen doing that kind of stuff right now. That's 371 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: the positive like reason why X might not be visible. 372 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: The more negative is that, quite frankly, they either don't 373 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: have the money to do those kinds of things or 374 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: they're no longer in that tier as an advertiser. 375 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 5: What do you mean they don't have the money there? 376 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 5: They're a unit of Xai. Xai has got money coming 377 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 5: out the ear. 378 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 3: When I hear about Kurt talking about X's advertising business, 379 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 3: I have that feeling of when you hear about a 380 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 3: really old celebrity who you thought had already passed away 381 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 3: like years ago. Like it's like, oh yeah, X has 382 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 3: an advertising is I completely forgot because David, like you said, 383 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 3: they are now part of Xai, and it really seems 384 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 3: like this whole part, you know, this whole soilent. 385 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 5: They're simply soilent for the Xai robots. 386 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 3: Not necessarily the metaphor I would have used, but yes, 387 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 3: that's exactly what I mean. 388 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: That's the cynical way to look at it, right, is 389 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: that x is sort of now the you know, the 390 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,479 Speaker 1: any money they make is sort of bravy, and it's 391 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: the back burner to this much more important thing, which 392 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: is that they're using the data to power Xai and 393 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: that's really all that matters. And so you know, if 394 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: that's the way that that X is, it's certainly nowhere 395 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: near the kind of top of the conversation that it 396 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: was several years ago in the advertising industry. But maybe 397 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: it has a different purpose now to your point. 398 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 5: But now, Max, it just said a minute ago that 399 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 5: oh my god, right, X advertising, you know, it's just 400 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 5: a corpse, it's a cadaver. It's it's it's long since past. 401 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 5: But I actually thought there was reporting, including perhaps from you, 402 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 5: that indicated there's been a bit of a of an 403 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 5: uptick in advertising revenue over there at X. 404 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about this a few months ago and 405 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: it came up again this week. So way back in February, 406 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: I wrote this newsletter that essentially said, hey, we're seeing 407 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: it up to an advertising Elon Musk is out here 408 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: saying the quote unquote a boycott is essentially over or 409 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: soon to be over, like what gibs, right, And what 410 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: I heard and what I put in this newsletter was 411 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: essentially that everyone in the ad industry is terrified of 412 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: not advertising on X because at the time, the owner 413 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: of the company was bff with the President of the 414 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 1: United States and they were suing people who didn't advertise there. Right, 415 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: So there was this implicit sort of idea that hey, 416 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: if we don't spend money on X, we are going 417 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: to be sued, and it has been talked about for 418 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: several months. The couple days maybe a day before the 419 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: conference started last week, the Wall Street Journal had a 420 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: more detailed version of that story that said, the lawyers 421 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: for X are literally calling some of these advertisers and 422 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: making this threat explicit, right, you advertise with us or 423 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: we will sue you, and that. 424 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 5: The illegal argument is kurt. The legal argument is, uh, 425 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 5: what what's the legal argument? 426 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not an anti trust lawyer. The claim is 427 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: that this is anti competitive and that these brands are 428 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: sort of colluding to damage X's business. Now, I have 429 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: never really heard of a boycott being considered anti competitive, 430 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: anti trust, right. I mean, think about how people vote 431 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: with their their wallets all day, every day, right, And 432 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: there's never been any kind of sort of to my knowledge, 433 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: like pushback on this from all illegality standpoint. When you 434 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: think about what Elon in particular and Linda really have 435 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: said about free speech, it's quite comical to think that, 436 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: you know, hey, spend money on our product or we 437 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: will sue you. Oh, by the way, we're free speech absolutists. 438 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 4: Right. 439 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: To me, those things do not really go hand in hand. 440 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: But again, on the eve of this conference, essentially this 441 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: story comes out that paints X in quite a negative light. Again, 442 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: it's not totally new. We've been talking about this for months, 443 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: but it did set a stage, i would say, for 444 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: discussions around next At the event, and a bunch of 445 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: people that I talked to last week pointed out like 446 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: this is pretty shady stuff. If this is indeed what's 447 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: happening to people. 448 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, Max, I guess I don't understand if 449 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 5: they are doing this and they're allowed to do this, 450 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 5: I guess I just don't know where it ends like 451 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 5: to me. Then, I suppose the hot dog vendor at 452 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 5: the street is, you know, his sales pitches by this 453 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 5: hot dog or I'll punch you in the face. The 454 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 5: guy selling shovel says, by this shovel or I will 455 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 5: beat you with it. I mean, it's pretty darn odd like. 456 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 5: And I don't, well, I guess if it's working in 457 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 5: the short term, I suppose, God bless him. But man, 458 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 5: it doesn't. 459 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 3: Seem still is it working? I mean the data. 460 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 5: Kurt said that he's got reporting that says revenue is 461 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 5: ticking back up. 462 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 463 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, I just again, like you sort of would wonder 464 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 3: if we're seeing maybe token purchases, small purchases to deal 465 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 3: with the threat rather than well it. 466 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 5: Just Kurt, that is the would token purchases of ads 467 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 5: be enough to drive that pick up and add revenue 468 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 5: that you talked about. 469 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: Yes, at scale, because remember the numbers are quite small. Right. 470 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: I mean, this is not like a one hundred billion 471 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: dollar annual revenue company where someone spending ten million bucks 472 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: gets totally lost in the sauce. It's like they're making 473 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, two zero point five billion dollars in annual revenue. 474 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: So if suddenly you have, you know, a dozen advertisers 475 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: that all could you know, spending ten million plus dollars 476 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: or whatever it is, that's going to actually be a notable, 477 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: noticeable jump in revenue. Small but noticeable. So I do 478 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: think the token thing is is sort of a real 479 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: and if you are a giant advertiser, you have to 480 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: weigh like, is ten million dollars worth sort of the 481 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: public drama of being sued by X and going through 482 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: a multi year lawsuit. And I think a lot of 483 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: brands would just say, you give money enough. 484 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 5: You just give them the money and run the ad. 485 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: But is this a sustainable thing? Right? Like to Max's point, like, Okay, 486 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: maybe there's an uptick this year, but like, this is 487 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: not the sign of a healthy business when you have 488 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: to force your clients to spend with you at risk 489 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: of lawsuit. 490 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 5: Okay, Kurt so CEO Linda y Eckarino sat down with 491 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 5: an Axios reporter for a panel there at kind and 492 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 5: it got a little sporty tell us briefly about it. 493 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,239 Speaker 1: Well, we talked about that story that came out, and 494 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: so Linda was asked about this on stage. I believe 495 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: it's on Monday of can so, the very first day 496 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: of the conference, and essentially, instead of you know, either 497 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: acknowledging yes, we are doing this or even disputing it, 498 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: the real feedback was like she trashed the Wall Street Journal. 499 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: You know, was like, and we. 500 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 5: Will still read that publication. 501 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: Right, and the whole notion. And you guys are familiar 502 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: with this because you cover Elon and have paid attention 503 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: to Elon for years, but like, this is a pretty 504 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 1: tried and true strategy from sort of el Dusk as well, right, 505 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: which is like someone writes something that he doesn't like 506 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: or in this case, she doesn't like, and the response is, well, 507 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: I'm just going to bash the journalism. I'm going to 508 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: bash that outlet and those reporters and sort of cast 509 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: doubt on the story that way. And so that's what 510 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: we saw. But it was a kind of an awkward 511 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: way to start the week, right, everyone's there to potentially 512 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: do these deals and and. 513 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 3: Perhaps give x big checks for money for ads. 514 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: But instead of starting that way, it really started with 515 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: this sort of combative conversation with Linda, and and it 516 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: did come up several times throughout my discussions that week. 517 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: Is just sort of like it wasn't really a great 518 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: look for her or X on the eve or the 519 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: beginning of this important conference. 520 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 5: A bit of a buzzkill. 521 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: The other thing I'm thinking about as Kurt is talking 522 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 3: about this, we talked last week about cash burn at XAI. Yes, 523 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: I think a billion dollars a month was the figure 524 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: that we had from our reporting. I mean, there's a 525 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: lot of cash going out of this combined company, and 526 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 3: for x. 527 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 5: It's mostly just going to be for the debt, right, 528 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 5: I mean they've sacked a huge chunk of their workforce 529 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 5: and right, I mean, yeah, you're right, they are believing. 530 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 3: I'm just saying there's not that much revenue coming in 531 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 3: to this operation, either from the AI side or from 532 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 3: the advertising side. 533 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean that fundraise apparently, which they are still 534 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 5: doing right now for XAI, of which x is now 535 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 5: a unit, apparently came a touch too late for the 536 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 5: big con party. They had that money come in. You 537 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 5: know they would you know, that's where Kurt would have 538 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 5: been hanging out on Thursday nights. 539 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 3: It would have been doing a double. 540 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 5: Okay, now, Kurt, don't hang up, don't leave us. 541 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 3: Yep. 542 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 5: But I got a couple of quick things rapid fire 543 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 5: for Max and if you have some clever thought, some epiphany, sir, 544 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 5: great way in the shouted out Max, there was another 545 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 5: exploding rocket. 546 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, over the weekend, a starship rocket doing a static 547 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 3: fire test. That's a kind of test where they fire 548 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: the engine while it's it's on the ground. It exploded. 549 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 3: I think in the statement SpaceX called it like a 550 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 3: significant anomaly or something like that. 551 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 5: But yes, it was a bad They say the darnedest 552 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 5: things they do. You got to give them credit. They 553 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 5: have rocket engineers. 554 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 3: Is funny, right. Anyway, this was bad. This was not 555 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 3: something they expect, especially, and. 556 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 5: It's bad because they just keep happening one after the 557 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 5: after another, like. 558 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 3: The third fourth, Yeah, I think maybe the fourth trier 559 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 3: we've had it not go exactly right. If Lauren Grush, 560 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 3: you know, our colleague and Bloomberg Aerospace reporter, were here, 561 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 3: she just got Curt. She would say that like, look, 562 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: this is these are experimental crafts. Explosions are not totally 563 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 3: uncommon or or necessarily even unexpected. 564 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 5: Sorry, wasn't it and maybe you already said this, But 565 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 5: wasn't it simply refueling? 566 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 3: It was a fuel mishap. There was an explosion while 567 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: they were loading fuel in Uh. Yeah, definitely not supposed 568 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 3: to happen, and they're investigating it. And I do think 569 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 3: while these are experimental craft each time something like this happens, 570 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 3: it pushes the timeline back a little bit. And this 571 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 3: is a company that is very much under the gun 572 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 3: if they want to meet Elon Musk's very very aggressive 573 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 3: timelines for sending these rockets, you know, towards Mars or 574 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,239 Speaker 3: even set putting them to tests that could lead them 575 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 3: to go to Mars. So definitely a setback. You know, 576 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 3: on top of the issues that we've talked about for 577 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 3: the last few weeks with Trump and the former NASA 578 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 3: point e. 579 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 5: Now we also had a revelation of sort On Musk's 580 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 5: computer situation. 581 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is where I want Kurt's input here, because 582 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 3: a lot of people were surprised that in the legal 583 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 3: filings between open AI and Elon Musk in the dispute 584 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 3: between Sam Altman and Elon Musk open Ai and Elon Musk. 585 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 3: Elon's team essentially said he does not have a computer 586 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 3: and that, like the open Ai, I had been expecting, 587 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 3: you know, emails or documents from his computer. I guess 588 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 3: they got some from his phone, but his lawyer said, 589 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 3: no computer. And a lot of people are surprised by this. 590 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 3: And my reaction, Kurt, was, is it really that surprising. 591 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: I feel like Elon's not the only CEO who goes 592 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 3: or claims to go without a computer. Yeah, I'm not. 593 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: I actually wasn't surprised at that at all. For the 594 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: same reason Max. I remember in the book I wrote Battle. 595 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 3: For the Bird. 596 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 5: By the way, by it read it? 597 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, by it read it? 598 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 3: Please. 599 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: Jack Dorsey, the co founder and former CEO of Twitter, 600 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: did his entire job from his smartphone. You know what 601 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: I mean. He had an iPad that he used from 602 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: time to time. But really, I mean, like this is 603 00:30:59,040 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: a guy running. 604 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 3: That's like very you know, elderly I don't know, or 605 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 3: child of him or something. 606 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: I like, Yeah, but I mean like this guy wasn't 607 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: just running Twitter. He was running Square now Block at 608 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: the same time. So a CEO of two publicly traded 609 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: tech companies who did his entire job from his phone, right, 610 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: And so, I, I mean, it's hard for me to 611 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: imagine Elon's sitting down at his laptop and typing away. 612 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: I think we know he did, because he's posted some 613 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: some screenshots of a laptop at one point that The 614 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: only reason I remember is they were like really smudgy 615 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: and gross, and everyone was like, Oh, your screen looks 616 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: really looks really gross. You need to clean it. So 617 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: I do remember some of that, But no, I'm not 618 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: surprised to hear he he works from a phone. 619 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 3: I suspect that laptop is his gaming piece, like he 620 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 3: does play a lot of computer games. But yeah, like 621 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 3: these guys have assistance and stuff as well, Like what 622 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 3: what what would you need a computer for? If you're 623 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 3: Elon Musk. 624 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 5: You've got he's got what's what the hell is the 625 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 5: name of his robot. He's got optimists Optimist. Yeah, and 626 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 5: he's got like a he's got a hole flock of 627 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 5: Optimi around him that just at his beck a call. 628 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 3: I would be surprising if you saw Elon Lake typing 629 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 3: away at a laptop, I'd say, unless he was playing 630 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 3: a computer game. Or composing a meme. 631 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 5: Kurt Wagner. Thanks as always, Max. 632 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, thank you, Thanks David. 633 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 5: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong and edited by Annamasirakas, 634 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 5: Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Percell fact checks. Our 635 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 5: supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson. The elon Ink theme is 636 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 5: written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. Brendan 637 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 5: Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is 638 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 5: ahead of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks as always to 639 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 5: our supporters Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. 640 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 5: If you have a minute, rate and review our show, 641 00:32:53,760 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 5: it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.