Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 2: my name is Noble.
Speaker 3: They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. And folks, we are
Speaker 3: returning to you after an Easter weekend as we record
Speaker 3: on Monday, April twenty first, Happy for twenty to all
Speaker 3: who celebrated another correlation of holidays there.
Speaker 4: It was a nice crossover.
Speaker 5: Yeah, everyone was super mellow at the Easter egg Hugh
Speaker 5: and also our ip the Pope.
Speaker 3: Right, Pope Francis has passed away.
Speaker 5: I mean they're gonna have to do the whole thing
Speaker 5: right with the white smoke, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: The Conclave, the black smoke if they don't reach a decision,
Speaker 3: the white smoke when they find the new head of
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church.
Speaker 5: Did you all see the movie Conclave that was recently
Speaker 5: I quite enjoyed it. I thought it was an interesting
Speaker 5: way of really dramatizing that but not being too heavy handed.
Speaker 5: If anyone hasn't seen it and want of insight into
Speaker 5: the process we're about to go through in the news,
Speaker 5: check it out.
Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, because the Vatican is big with diplomatic immunity
Speaker 3: ever since the Vienna Conventions.
Speaker 4: Good tie in.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's the thing we're talking about, diplomatic immunity now.
Speaker 3: In our first chapter on this, we had we had
Speaker 3: so much to get to because it's a I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's surprising, but it is an ancient concept.
Speaker 3: That is where the old trope don't kill the messenger
Speaker 3: comes from. You know, imagine what was the example we had.
Speaker 3: Let's see Matt and Noel as respective rulers of their lands,
Speaker 3: and they had to make sure that the guy they
Speaker 3: sent to talk to the other team was able to
Speaker 3: send and deliver or was able to go and return safely.
Speaker 3: That's what diplomatic immunity is supposed to.
Speaker 5: Allow you to do, and at its heart it makes
Speaker 5: a lot of sense for you know, perhaps opposing forces
Speaker 5: to be able to communicate for the purposes of either
Speaker 5: getting ready for a conflict or you know, hopefully maybe
Speaker 5: hashing things out. But that kind of dispensation for an
Speaker 5: individual carrying important matters of state between these two factions,
Speaker 5: it's very important for both parties for that individual to
Speaker 5: be considered off limits in terms of you know, immediate retributions,
Speaker 5: like y'all will have your time, let's work things out
Speaker 5: and figure out some parameters and then we can murder
Speaker 5: each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a lot of moments to which are
Speaker 3: are frankly cinematic, even though this is the real world.
Speaker 3: I'm always reminded of the copaganda shows where someone gets
Speaker 3: busted for criminal activity and they get into you know,
Speaker 3: the the interrogation room and they say, actually, I'm an
Speaker 3: undercover cop. Because there have been cases where people claim
Speaker 3: diplomatic immunity and appear to be civilians which don't get
Speaker 3: that special dispensation or indulgence.
Speaker 4: Dare we say that's a good that's a good word
Speaker 4: for it, Ben, Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's an indulgence. You know, Catholics are Catholicism is in
Speaker 3: our minds today. It's the idea or there have been
Speaker 3: moments where a government will say, okay, we have you
Speaker 3: dead to rights, right, you know, where the government of
Speaker 3: Pakistan you shot to people walked up to your car,
Speaker 3: you shot one of them in the back, and then
Speaker 3: they say, actually, I have diplomatic immunity. What, No, you don't.
Speaker 3: You're a You're just an it guy.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, if you're an it guy for the State Department,
Speaker 2: then perhaps there is something to discuss there, because there
Speaker 2: are many a civilian looking person that worked for the
Speaker 2: for any country, state department that end up in situations.
Speaker 2: But as we talked about in the first episode, usually
Speaker 2: diplomatic immunity is a thing that is stated to some
Speaker 2: responding officer, like the initial encounter with some law enforcement
Speaker 2: no matter where you are, that's when a card comes
Speaker 2: out a card.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you talked about the pouch and all of that,
Speaker 5: but there are obviously very well established credentials that one
Speaker 5: could produce, absolutely encounter.
Speaker 3: Absolutely and to be considered a working diplomat. You are
Speaker 3: issue credentials for your time in the country that you're
Speaker 3: that you're working in, right, and.
Speaker 4: A one time thing like per use kind of it's okay.
Speaker 3: It gets your credentials expire when you move on to
Speaker 3: a different country. So in the case of the US
Speaker 3: State Department, it's there's a thing where you you serve
Speaker 3: essentially a tour for a few years in one country.
Speaker 3: Then you move to another country. Your diplomatic credentials follow
Speaker 3: with you country per country, So you can't like, you
Speaker 3: can't do a number of years in Ghana and then
Speaker 3: just on a lark go back to Ghana and say, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm not paying parking tickets.
Speaker 4: You can't just hop around.
Speaker 5: There's no like diplomatic community, tourist package or whatever.
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 5: You are typically stationed somewhere for a time and then
Speaker 5: are reassigned, you know, and this is all above board,
Speaker 5: at least in terms of the issuing government, the issuing country, right, yeah, correct.
Speaker 2: It should be noted that it's funny. We talked about
Speaker 2: it before, like when you're talking about an embassy and
Speaker 2: diplomats and a consulate and consoles. One thing we didn't
Speaker 2: bring up last time are honorary consoles.
Speaker 4: I love an honorary anything. Well, yes, it's so funny.
Speaker 2: Honorary consoles aka shadow diplomats is something Pro Publica talked
Speaker 2: about a few years ago and we mentioned it. We
Speaker 2: we talked about like what is that, What the heck
Speaker 2: is an honorary console and how does that work? And
Speaker 2: what kind of vetting process goes into making someone an
Speaker 2: honorary console for a country.
Speaker 5: Is it like getting an honorary degree where you're a
Speaker 5: luminary in some field and they're just like, this guy
Speaker 5: clearly could be a huge boon to us in terms
Speaker 5: of diplomacy, right is that?
Speaker 3: I like? I like that comparison because it is shadow
Speaker 3: diplomacy is a part of diplomacy. It is murky. It's
Speaker 3: such a as weird as it sounds in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: A lot of this stuff goes down to like gentlemen agreements,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. We have a special relationship
Speaker 3: with the United Kingdom. We're sorry this kid died, but
Speaker 3: we're going to work out some stuff, or in Pakistan
Speaker 3: where the US will pay the blood price or called
Speaker 3: da under Sharia law. But yeah, there's so much this
Speaker 3: and I love that we're pointing out, you know, at
Speaker 3: the very beginning, as he said, no, diplomatic immunity is
Speaker 3: supposed to be a protective measure to allow diplomats freedom
Speaker 3: of movement and activity. The most common example of diplomatic
Speaker 3: immunity being abused is parking violations, and it's hilarious and
Speaker 3: sometimes not paying taxes. The parking violation thing is hilarious
Speaker 3: because at some point, even when an embassy racks up
Speaker 3: tens of thousands of dollars of park tickets, at some
Speaker 3: point there are very high level conversations between two governments
Speaker 3: where they say, Okay, this guy parks like a dick,
Speaker 3: but we can't make this world War three.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. We talked about last episode, a
Speaker 2: guy who had a bunch of these parking violations racked up,
Speaker 2: got a dui, and then finally his embassy basically said,
Speaker 2: you got to get out of here. Oh and you
Speaker 2: got to pay all those back parking.
Speaker 3: Tickets, right right, Yeah, indeed, Yeah, immunity in your destination
Speaker 3: country is not the same thing. Well, we'll get into
Speaker 3: this man. It gets so, it gets so crazy and spoiler,
Speaker 3: you know, the problem runs much deeper than parking tickets.
Speaker 5: And maybe this is off base to do here, but
Speaker 5: I figured, from my own edification, I get it out
Speaker 5: of the way. I think it might be fun to
Speaker 5: talk quickly about the difference between a diplomat, an ambassador,
Speaker 5: and a dignitary. Right, So it's like, while all ambassadors
Speaker 5: are diplomats, not all diplomats are ambassadors. Ambassadors are like
Speaker 5: the high mucky muck of diplomats representing a country attending
Speaker 5: public kind of facing things right.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, like how all mazes or puzzles, right, not all
Speaker 3: puzzles or mazes.
Speaker 5: And a dignitary could be an ambassador and may have
Speaker 5: diplomatic immunity or be accompanied by diplomats, But a dignitary
Speaker 5: is more a foreign visitor to a country who holds
Speaker 5: high rank of some kind, whether in.
Speaker 3: The medlary of the government. Yeah, dignitary could just be
Speaker 3: someone who, through genetic accident, is a member of an
Speaker 3: aristocratic system, right, And that's how it used to go
Speaker 3: in earlier evenings. So that's part of why diplomatic immunity exists,
Speaker 3: because the first diplomats were like the siblings and the
Speaker 3: cousins of the king, you.
Speaker 5: Know, yeah, sometimes like proving themselves by being the one
Speaker 5: that gets sort of pushed forth to like give the
Speaker 5: bad news.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: That is funny.
Speaker 5: Then even in fiction you see that a lot where
Speaker 5: like the nephew or the son of the king will
Speaker 5: appear in court to the opposition to make known the
Speaker 5: intentions or wishes of you know, whom he represents.
Speaker 3: The Habsburg say, we've got to talk to this foreign power.
Speaker 3: Which one of us has the least weird chin.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: I have to say, guys, while we've been having this conversation,
Speaker 2: I've been delighted watching Nole's camera. For everybody listening, Noel
Speaker 2: has a new cool camera and.
Speaker 3: It moves, ye moves and zooms, and there's.
Speaker 2: A portrait behind Nole's head kind of to his right,
Speaker 2: and it keeps I think it keeps seeing that portrait
Speaker 2: as a person standing behind Nol, and it keeps trying
Speaker 2: to reframe.
Speaker 4: For it's I could stand up and.
Speaker 5: Look literally track me all the way to a standing position.
Speaker 5: If anyone wants to nerd out with a sick monitor,
Speaker 5: the Apple Studio display is expensive, but it's really really
Speaker 5: cool and I'll never need another monitor again.
Speaker 3: They are not paying us to say that fans the monitor.
Speaker 3: With this, let's take a quick word from our sponsors,
Speaker 3: and let's see just how deeply problematic and conspiratorial diplomatic
Speaker 3: immunity can become. Here are the facts. Please, please please,
Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realists, check out our first chapter of this
Speaker 3: series before continuing, as we'll call in that exploration, we
Speaker 3: talked about the ancient roots of what we call diplomatic
Speaker 3: immunity today, and we talk about some crucial misconceptions. We're
Speaker 3: gonna recap these briefly just to pop the top tonight,
Speaker 3: because look, no judgment, but if you are diplomatic staff
Speaker 3: in the audience this evening, I think we can all
Speaker 3: agree it's better to know about these things in advance.
Speaker 3: And you know, we hope you never find yourself in
Speaker 3: a situation where knowing these misconceptions applies. I think the
Speaker 3: first one we got a bust, and Matt you alluded
Speaker 3: to it a little bit earlier. Not everyone gets this superpower.
Speaker 3: Not everyone gets full or even partial immunity. If you just.
Speaker 4: Trap are different.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, it's like all the conversation and caveated and loophold,
Speaker 3: and we'll get to some specific cases, but the main
Speaker 3: takeaway is that if you do not have the official cosign,
Speaker 3: you cannot one hundred percent assume that your origin country
Speaker 3: will support you'll back you up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But there are instances where some
Speaker 2: form of diplomatic community will get you out of like
Speaker 2: you said, parking tickets, but like a moving violation if
Speaker 2: you're speeding to a certain extent in certain states, even
Speaker 2: if you have immunity, you're still going to have to
Speaker 2: go to court to face those charges because that is
Speaker 2: not a part of your official duties.
Speaker 3: Right, That's one of the other that's one of the
Speaker 3: other misconceptions. I'm glad we're bringing that up. So look,
Speaker 3: if you are not granted this superpower, which most people
Speaker 3: don't possess, it doesn't matter what's legal in your origin country.
Speaker 3: If you are safe. If you are from a place
Speaker 3: where cannabis is decriminalized or even fully legal, and you
Speaker 3: travel to a place where it's not legal, you're still
Speaker 3: in trouble. You can't be like, I'm sorry, you know
Speaker 3: me and mar or whatever. I apologize Singapore, but weed
Speaker 3: is fine in Portland.
Speaker 4: Well question or just made me example.
Speaker 5: I have a friend who owned that name, but did
Speaker 5: get detained in an Asian country in Korea, right was
Speaker 5: Korea for having a weed vape. And it was right
Speaker 5: when there is a big kerfuffle and the changeover in
Speaker 5: the government there, and so this individual.
Speaker 4: Was held for a day.
Speaker 5: I want to say, but like the moment that that
Speaker 5: shuffle happened, they were released. I'm wondering if you know,
Speaker 5: even if you're not a diplomat, you are a citizen
Speaker 5: of another country, and there are almost always an opportunity
Speaker 5: for that to be an act of diplomacy of some kind,
Speaker 5: to either mess with or not mess with someone from
Speaker 5: another country, depending on the nature of your relationship.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, many factors go into this. People, anyone can
Speaker 3: become a pawn right on the board. We've seen a
Speaker 3: piece of leverage. We have seen many multiple times. We
Speaker 3: also know, to your point earlier that you raised Matt
Speaker 3: this this get out of jail free card. This actual immunity,
Speaker 3: like the high level immunity, it applies to top notch staff,
Speaker 3: the bigger family of dogs and there families UH and ambassadors.
Speaker 3: And part of the part of the reasonable see is
Speaker 3: that's simply a necessity of state craft. But even if
Speaker 3: you have this immunity, even if you are the ambassador
Speaker 3: or family member of UH, you know, the ambassador's crew,
Speaker 3: a member of the ambassador's family, say, yeah, the protection
Speaker 3: only technically applies in the course of your official duties.
Speaker 3: So let's say you are the US ambassador to UH.
Speaker 3: Let's pick a random country. When we don't talk about Oftenswana.
Speaker 3: It's perfect. And also I love Ladies Detective Agency.
Speaker 4: That one was great.
Speaker 5: Yes, I forgot all about that with Jill Scott, who
Speaker 5: we had a podcast with here on the network for
Speaker 5: quite a little while.
Speaker 3: So you're the US ambassador to Botswana. For some reason,
Speaker 3: in addition to your duties, you picked up a side
Speaker 3: hustle where you're stealing Pokemon cards and bulk. You're just
Speaker 3: you're lifting the trucks. You're hoisting them, just like that
Speaker 3: meat heist, and they fell off the trucks.
Speaker 2: Sure, all right, it sounds like a shadow diplomat, So all.
Speaker 5: Right, all right, all right, which which ironically is also
Speaker 5: the name of a Pokemon.
Speaker 3: So if you get caught boosting all these Pokemon cars
Speaker 3: sweet sweet Poke, Yeah, then yeah, boosting these boosters. Uh,
Speaker 3: if you've got mad boosties like Jack and Miles, then
Speaker 3: you have to you would have to explain somehow why
Speaker 3: boosting truckloads of sweet Pokemon merch is part of your
Speaker 3: job as the ambassador. First off, how do you find
Speaker 3: the time of the day. But secondly, how would you
Speaker 3: explain that? It sounds cut and dry. But then to
Speaker 3: that earlier point we made, there's so many other complicated
Speaker 3: intervening factors. They're not really asking whether or not you
Speaker 3: committed a that's that's fine, that happens, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a conversation somewhere else. But the next
Speaker 3: questions in that conversation are going to be, like, do
Speaker 3: we have any sensitive deals between the two countries? Does
Speaker 3: rocking the boat? Like does does dying on this hill
Speaker 3: or fighting for the good grace of Pokemon? Is that
Speaker 3: going to mess up our pipeline, our telecom deal?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: And to think about it.
Speaker 4: And it's pretty gross and cliche.
Speaker 5: But an example that always seems to come up and
Speaker 5: fictionalized accounts of these type of exchanges are like someone
Speaker 5: has killed a sex worker, you know, in a hotel room,
Speaker 5: and they know, and we have to either decide is
Speaker 5: this person so high level and valuable that we're going
Speaker 5: to cover it up for them?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: Like it's it's it's almost a joke.
Speaker 3: Right right, And sometimes sometimes people choose pretty strident solutions
Speaker 3: to those conversations. Another thing, is there a quid pro quote?
Speaker 3: Is there an opportunity in the chaos, you know, we
Speaker 3: could maybe swap some prisoners, or swap some tourists or whatever.
Speaker 3: Does if we're one country, do we want something from
Speaker 3: the other. Could we leverage this criminal case to help
Speaker 3: us in that conversation, like we want a different kind
Speaker 3: of trade deal, tariff regimen. So maybe Johnny Blue jeans,
Speaker 3: my favorite, doesn't have to get booked for murder. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's weird. They all come into play. The third
Speaker 3: misconception that we cannot emphasize over emphasize is that your immunity,
Speaker 3: even if you have, you know, premium plus America immunity,
Speaker 3: it can be revoked no matter who you are. You
Speaker 3: push the envelope too far and you can get cut loose.
Speaker 3: And this always the way this happens is. Let's say
Speaker 3: there's a serious crime, domestic abuse, money laundry via diplomatic pouches,
Speaker 3: which we shouted out earlier, and I think we're all
Speaker 3: still fascinated with the destination country, the country where that
Speaker 3: crime occurred or where that diplomat is supposed to be working.
Speaker 3: They can make a phone call, sort of like your
Speaker 3: friend's parents at a sleepover can call your parents if
Speaker 3: you're misbehaving at the sleepover, and they can say when
Speaker 3: the country's called, they say, look, can you guys just
Speaker 3: tell us, this person does not have diplomatic immunity, And
Speaker 3: sometimes the other country will say, yeah, wait, truckloads of pokemon.
Speaker 3: Forget that guy.
Speaker 5: No, no, too much, a bridge too far, bridge too far.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we talked about an example of that where
Speaker 2: a woman was caught shoplifting and she happened to be
Speaker 2: the spouse of a diplomat, so she had diplomatic immunity
Speaker 2: through his employment with the state department or some state department,
Speaker 2: and she was not arrested, but the state department was notified,
Speaker 2: and so basically they then said, actually, you don't have
Speaker 2: immunity from this specific thing.
Speaker 4: She did end up getting.
Speaker 2: In quite a bit of trouble for stealing three thousand
Speaker 2: dollars worth of stuff.
Speaker 3: Which at that let you don't need to why she
Speaker 3: wasn't doing it to eat. Yeah, it was shoplifting. It's
Speaker 3: such a weird one. That's an excellent example. We also
Speaker 3: have to note that countries can be hesitant to waive immunity.
Speaker 3: First off, not all spouses and family members get tucked
Speaker 3: up into diplomatic immunity. It can vary due to a
Speaker 3: number of factors. But if like let's imagine we're the
Speaker 3: United States, and tri Force is president, best president in
Speaker 3: recent history. Obviously, thank you for your service, Andrew. Your
Speaker 3: administration is not going to be super open to waving
Speaker 3: immunity in general, because it can set a precedent. You
Speaker 3: want the people who work for you to know that
Speaker 3: they do have some degree of protection. Otherwise it feels
Speaker 3: like you're throwing people to the wolves.
Speaker 5: So even the term immunity also of course makes one
Speaker 5: think of immunity in testifying, like in court cases. Right,
Speaker 5: it's just sort of like that usually almost always is
Speaker 5: a quid pro quo situation, right where they're like, you
Speaker 5: do something for us, and we're going to make sure
Speaker 5: that you're not in trouble or that you're get a
Speaker 5: lesser sentence or whatever. But even immunity is more than that, Like,
Speaker 5: it's more than just getting a lesser sentence. Usually it
Speaker 5: involves testifying against somebody so that the things that you
Speaker 5: do are not going to prevent you from doing that,
Speaker 5: and that you are able to have a clean slate
Speaker 5: even though you are known.
Speaker 4: To have perhaps colluded with said individual or charges.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, lesser charges. Yeah, So it be immunity
Speaker 3: from something like in a case, community from maybe the
Speaker 3: death penalty or we're not going to get you on
Speaker 3: this level of racketeering.
Speaker 5: Full immunity, however, would probably be rare, and maybe more
Speaker 5: of the stuff of you know, TV procedurals.
Speaker 3: It can happen. You know, it's happened. Shout out paper clip,
Speaker 3: a couple of things, a couple of other related things
Speaker 3: from World War Two. But yeah, you're absolutely on the
Speaker 3: money there, man, because if you grant full immunity, it
Speaker 3: is almost always a kind of payment for services rendered.
Speaker 3: Help us get the bigger fish, quid pro quo. Look,
Speaker 3: if the home country does not waive immunity, which they
Speaker 3: often will not, then the destination country still has a
Speaker 3: couple of other rabbits in the top hat. The most prominent,
Speaker 3: of course, is declaring an individual persona non grata, which
Speaker 3: is the fancy Latin way of saying you're not welcome here,
Speaker 3: go away. It could happen to civilians as well, but
Speaker 3: when it happens to diplomats it usually also bundles in
Speaker 3: things like revoking their diplomatic credentials and expelling them from
Speaker 3: the country. Also, if you're declared persona and on grata
Speaker 3: in a country, you can't stay there. You know what
Speaker 3: I mean. You don't have to go home, but you
Speaker 3: can't stay in Nepal or whatever.
Speaker 4: You know, was that semisonic supersonic semisonic?
Speaker 3: I mean, oh, closing time, hmm.
Speaker 4: You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
Speaker 4: Stay here.
Speaker 3: Yeah. This idea of expulsion or persona no grata important
Speaker 3: to note that is entirely the destination country's decision. They
Speaker 3: can make it at any time. They don't need approval
Speaker 3: from the home country of a diplomat. When we saw,
Speaker 3: you know, the outbreak of the newest iteration of Russia's
Speaker 3: war against Ukraine and their invasion thereof there was internet
Speaker 3: furor and a lot of Russian diplomats were just expelled.
Speaker 3: Nobody was asking the home country of Russia to really
Speaker 3: wave immunity. They just kick the people out and it's
Speaker 3: their decision. So immunity is not as sacro sanct as
Speaker 3: we might think it is. And the last, maybe the
Speaker 3: most important point is if you successfully claim diplomatic immunity
Speaker 3: in one country, that does not mean that you're free
Speaker 3: from all consequences. You might get away with some very
Speaker 3: unclean evil stuff in say like the Japanese diplomat in
Speaker 3: Canada that we mentioned earlier, right, domestic violence case. But
Speaker 3: then you get kicked out, you get the boot, you
Speaker 3: get shipped back home, and you have consequences in your
Speaker 3: home country. In this guy's case in Japan, you get demoted,
Speaker 3: you might face criminal charges in your country of origin.
Speaker 3: All they did was move you to a different justice system,
Speaker 3: a system to which you are not, in this case immune.
Speaker 3: There you go. And so again, despite all these loopholes,
Speaker 3: these caveats, these asterisks, there's no escaping. A diplomatic community
Speaker 3: is powerful, it's necessary. I also think it purposely bakes
Speaker 3: in a window of time, right, everybody saying, don't act
Speaker 3: too rashly, give us some time to go through this.
Speaker 3: You know, if there wasn't immunity on some level, there
Speaker 3: wouldn't be anything stopping a hostile country from just rounding
Speaker 3: up foreign ministry or embassy staff whenever they please and
Speaker 3: then making charges to support their agenda. That's true, that's true.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because we talked about in the past, in
Speaker 2: the way way past, especially before those conventions, you could
Speaker 2: just you could round up everybody and accuse them of
Speaker 2: being spies, right, And that still occurs these days where
Speaker 2: diplomats are kicked out unceremoniously from countries when their country
Speaker 2: of origin is in some way embroiled in a conflict,
Speaker 2: whether cold, hot or you know what, lukewarm, I guess,
Speaker 2: uh yeah, countries will just say, hey, you have to
Speaker 2: get out now. That happened with the United States and
Speaker 2: Cuba not that long ago. That's the last one I
Speaker 2: can remember. But I know that there's other stuff happening
Speaker 2: even right now, where because of all of the trade
Speaker 2: war that's happening, some diplomatic relationships are being highly strained
Speaker 2: and potentially moving.
Speaker 3: That reminds me, when are we going to Hong Kong?
Speaker 2: You were going to Hong Kong whenever you please?
Speaker 3: Or but this, Yeah, and that's a great example. We
Speaker 3: also see that again with European governments and Russian diplomats
Speaker 3: right often related to windows stumbles or polonium underwear, but
Speaker 3: more so related recently to the invasion of Ukraine. In
Speaker 3: this power that is diplomatic community, it's a superpower, we
Speaker 3: also see opportunity for crime, corruption, and conspiracy. So tonight,
Speaker 3: what happens when this gets misused? What happens when things
Speaker 3: go wrong We're going to pause for a word from
Speaker 3: our sponsors, who are hopefully the State Department, and we'll
Speaker 3: be back. Here's where it gets crazy. We previously talked
Speaker 3: about we sort of categorized it into different types of corruption.
Speaker 3: The first one is that people might not follow the rules.
Speaker 3: The second one is that members of diplomatic state can
Speaker 3: knowingly use their position to aid and a bet or
Speaker 3: originate criminal acts. One thing we didn't talk about earlier
Speaker 3: in chapter one is the nebulous gray area. So we
Speaker 3: mentioned that people will do People will only get diplomatic
Speaker 3: immunity technically if it's in the course of their official employment.
Speaker 3: So riddle me this, guys. Does diplomatic immunity apply to
Speaker 3: acts of trade craft of espionage?
Speaker 2: So well, I guess it depends on what they're caught for.
Speaker 3: Right and who you're asking. Right. On the one hand, right,
Speaker 3: if you're the origin country, you could say internally, this
Speaker 3: does qualify as an act carried out in the course
Speaker 3: of an employment period. This is a job, right. But
Speaker 3: on the other hand, if you are the destination country
Speaker 3: where these shenanigans occur and you catch a foreign spine,
Speaker 3: that's probably a crime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, wherever it's occurring for sure. Well, it's one
Speaker 2: of those things. Are you Are you working for the
Speaker 2: state Department for some private industry from for some private company,
Speaker 2: and are you.
Speaker 3: Our contractor how does that work?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but you're let's say you're copying files and
Speaker 2: putting them onto a drive of some sort to transfer somewhere.
Speaker 2: But as a part of your official job for that
Speaker 2: private company, you're just doing your job. You're also just
Speaker 2: doing your job as your employment for the State Department?
Speaker 2: Is what part of that could be argued as like
Speaker 2: not being part of your official duties? You know, like
Speaker 2: and is that just the espionage?
Speaker 3: But that's the word too official, is it not? You
Speaker 3: know what I mean? The US Administration comes back and says,
Speaker 3: holy smokes, we're just as surprised as you. This was
Speaker 3: Ori T guy. He's there to like turn on on
Speaker 3: the server.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know, you're you're absolutely right. But what
Speaker 2: if you are just driving to a destination, right? Is
Speaker 2: that a part of your official duties, driving to where
Speaker 2: you're supposed to function and.
Speaker 3: You just happen to have a telescope, some scissors, a
Speaker 3: couple pieces of cloth, GPS system, that's all off the books.
Speaker 2: Well, but they can't search your car because you've got immunity.
Speaker 3: Right, that's why you throw it out while you're driving away.
Speaker 3: This is we're alluding to a specific case. But yeah,
Speaker 3: you're absolutely right, Matt. As ever, you know, in these situations,
Speaker 3: countries will often come together, right, work out a deal,
Speaker 3: grab some coffee in Vienna, what the hell have you?
Speaker 3: And the way this gets us to something we talked
Speaker 3: about so often in the past and remains true regardless
Speaker 3: of where you live. You as a member of the public,
Speaker 3: as a domestic populace, your government speaks very differently to
Speaker 3: you than your government speaks to other governments behind closed doors.
Speaker 3: In general, people don't want to rock the boat. They're
Speaker 3: very smart at this level. They have dozens hundreds of
Speaker 3: other factors to consider, and that's why you know you'll
Speaker 3: see people do crimes and the worst thing that happens
Speaker 3: is they get expelled. The countries that expel diplomats are
Speaker 3: genuinely concerned that if they crack down too hard, they
Speaker 3: are going to be economic consequences. Other countries are going
Speaker 3: to say, we're not sending our people here, and then
Speaker 3: that spells disaster for goodwill. Perhaps more immediately it spells
Speaker 3: disaster for trade agreements. So that's really what goes on
Speaker 3: trial or in consideration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's when the tariffs begin.
Speaker 3: It's so weird, man, Like, it's surreal, it's infuriating, and
Speaker 3: it bothers me. Like, let's say you are running a country.
Speaker 3: Your law enforcement has someone dead to rights, like they
Speaker 3: know they were digging dirt. This insert embassy employee here
Speaker 3: is not what they seem right, and they're breaking the
Speaker 3: laws of our country. But we can't do anything because
Speaker 3: we need this telecom deal, right, we need this pipeline.
Speaker 3: We've got so many you know, pistachios to ship abroad
Speaker 3: or whatever it may be. That's the trickiest part. People
Speaker 3: can get away with crimes, and even when they are punished,
Speaker 3: the consequences they encounter can be extremely different from those
Speaker 3: of the average civilian criminal. So maybe we talk about
Speaker 3: some specific examples, you know, getting away with murder. People
Speaker 3: do get away with a lot way pass, parking tickets,
Speaker 3: cases of child abuse, domestic violence, manslaughter. We're naming specific
Speaker 3: we're referencing specific cases. And in each of those specific
Speaker 3: genres of case we're referencing, there's more than one example.
Speaker 3: So with these considerations, yes, in theory, a diplomat of
Speaker 3: a certain level could murder someone purposely or through negligence.
Speaker 3: They could refuse to be arrested, they could skip down.
Speaker 3: In practice, that doesn't prevent them from being judged sometimes
Speaker 3: in absentia, sometimes as we'll see remotely, like imagine appearing
Speaker 3: to court via video. And at this point we see
Speaker 3: all those soft factors we mentioned previously. We also see
Speaker 3: the idea, as cold as it sounds, of taking a
Speaker 3: tragedy and engineering from that tragedy and opportunity. Could we
Speaker 3: have some sort of prisoner trade, a mutual extradition agreement.
Speaker 3: This brings us to the case of Harry Dunn from
Speaker 3: August twenty seven, twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Harry Dunn is on a motorcycle and he is
Speaker 2: traveling down the road. He is in the United Kingdom,
Speaker 2: so he is traveling on the left side of the
Speaker 2: road as Yeah, as he's making his way. It's a kid.
Speaker 2: It's already a dangerous situation being on a motorcycle right well,
Speaker 2: as he's traveling down the road as he should be,
Speaker 2: someone is traveling towards him on his side of the road,
Speaker 2: so they are traveling on the right side of the road,
Speaker 2: which is wrong way traffic in the UK, and this
Speaker 2: person strikes him with their vehicle and he is ultimately
Speaker 2: killed because of the accident, I guess the collision as
Speaker 2: you would call that. And then after the driver of
Speaker 2: the vehicle flags down some others is attempting to get help.
Speaker 2: Then it has found out that this forty five year
Speaker 2: old woman, and Seculas has this thing called diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 3: The US argues that she has this thing called diplomatic immunity.
Speaker 3: The United Kingdom disagrees. Harry Dunn is not doing bad stuff.
Speaker 3: He's driving on the right side of the road. He's
Speaker 3: a kid who likes his motorcycle. Seculis is married to
Speaker 3: a CIA employee who at the time is stationed as
Speaker 3: at a listening station raf Crowton, and Seculis claim does
Speaker 3: cooperate with police, right does try to help this help
Speaker 3: make things not a fatality. But young Harry Dunn does
Speaker 3: expire at the major trauma center in Oxford, the John
Speaker 3: Radcliffe Hospital, And when Seculis is speaking with police, we
Speaker 3: know that we know that things were a little murky
Speaker 3: at the beginning. There were a lot of conversations, because again,
Speaker 3: the idea of being the spouse of a diplomat hinges
Speaker 3: onto negotiable variables. Right, First, is the diplomat high level
Speaker 3: enough to get that kind of family protection? Second, do
Speaker 3: both countries agree that person counts as a diplomat.
Speaker 5: And are the privileges exactly the same every time? Or
Speaker 5: is there no?
Speaker 4: Kay, I didn't think so.
Speaker 5: I mean for the spouse, like, they don't automatically get
Speaker 5: all of the same protections as the actual facts diplomat.
Speaker 3: It depends on the level, you know, like if you're
Speaker 3: the ambassador level, then there will be more privileges afforded,
Speaker 3: and it really is a privilege. So this is the thing.
Speaker 3: Secoolest admits that she's driving on the wrong side of
Speaker 3: the road. This is further confirmed by CCTV footage. No
Speaker 3: one is arguing that she did not do this, that
Speaker 3: she was not responsible for this fatal collision. Instead, everyone
Speaker 3: is frantically trying to figure out what happens next. So
Speaker 3: Coolest doesn't really wait, I mean, she talks with police,
Speaker 3: she cooperates, right, but then she claims diplomatic immunity. She
Speaker 3: skips town and before this makes her sound like an
Speaker 3: utter villain, because I'm sure many of us have never
Speaker 3: heard the name before. She likely took these actions on
Speaker 3: the explicit orders of the US government. They told her
Speaker 3: what to do, she did what they said. She wasn't
Speaker 3: becoming some kind of international ghost.
Speaker 2: No, but it certainly didn't look great at the time,
Speaker 2: because it is essentially somebody leaving the scene of you know,
Speaker 2: a homicide.
Speaker 3: Or well not just the scene in the country.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, but it's just somebody who got
Speaker 2: out got out right when when trouble arose and she
Speaker 2: did something really really wrong. It's my understanding though, that
Speaker 2: then the United States and the United Kingdom we're working
Speaker 2: together to say, hey, what can we do here? Like
Speaker 2: this seems weird? Like what is this loophole being a
Speaker 2: she's an analyst, but she's a spouse of this diplomat,
Speaker 2: So why she has community? What do we do?
Speaker 3: She's the spouse of a guy we the US consider
Speaker 3: a diplomat for these purposes.
Speaker 5: Yes, actually, probably was she just confused about what country
Speaker 5: she is?
Speaker 4: Then wow, wow, she left intoxicated.
Speaker 3: Well I don't understand. No, no, it doesn't seem to
Speaker 3: be intoxication. There was a breathalyzer deployed on the scene.
Speaker 3: Looks more like she was leaving the base and perhaps
Speaker 3: doing distracted driving. There was actually a prior issue with
Speaker 3: distracted driving here in the US a few years prior,
Speaker 3: I see, and they'd only been in only been in
Speaker 3: the UK about three weeks.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: This is a quote from her. As I turned out
Speaker 2: of the exit from the Air Force base, taking a
Speaker 2: left turn, I instinctively moved to the right side of
Speaker 2: the road.
Speaker 4: She was confused about what country she was in.
Speaker 2: Well, well, she said, I knew that the proper side
Speaker 2: of the road to drive was the left side, not
Speaker 2: the right side, as I was accustomed to driving in
Speaker 2: the US. My action was based on instinct and not
Speaker 2: recalling in the moment that I should should have been
Speaker 2: driving on the other.
Speaker 3: Side and maybe be on your phone, maybe maybe be
Speaker 3: that's if you look at the case, that's what they're arguing.
Speaker 5: I've never had to drive in the UK, but I
Speaker 5: do every time I see it in a film or
Speaker 5: a TV show.
Speaker 4: Whatever I do, my mind does like recoils a little bit.
Speaker 4: Like I do.
Speaker 5: Think there would be situations where it would be easy
Speaker 5: to follow that muscle memory and just kind of screw up.
Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, especially if you are you know, you're
Speaker 3: newly minted in this place with a different set of
Speaker 3: literal rules of the road. The important thing is the
Speaker 3: government of the Unining Kingdom was in continual contact with
Speaker 3: the government of the United States after this collision occurred.
Speaker 2: And did we say she went to the US.
Speaker 3: Yes, she's skipped out, but to the US.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so she not is some malicious kind of fleeing
Speaker 5: the scene kind of why.
Speaker 3: No, No, the US government told her to do that
Speaker 3: and she followed those instructions, the US and the British government. Also,
Speaker 3: this is a thing that didn't get reported immediately. The
Speaker 3: British government was aware of this and they were like,
Speaker 3: you can see text messages whether we're speaking with each other,
Speaker 3: and the Foreign Minister was saying, look, we don't We
Speaker 3: asked you guys to wave immunity and you said no,
Speaker 3: we don't approve of this individual leaving the country. We
Speaker 3: have strong reservations. But since you refused to waive immunity
Speaker 3: and she claimed diplomatic immunity, we are not going to
Speaker 3: prevent her from boarding the next flight home. And that's
Speaker 3: exactly what happened. And as the case winds on, there's
Speaker 3: a lot of tension between the UK and the US.
Speaker 3: The British public is asking more and more questions. Journalists
Speaker 3: over in the UK, who are pretty great at their jobs,
Speaker 3: they verify that Seculas is how did they they had
Speaker 3: to be so careful at first? Because they're reporting laws?
Speaker 3: She was quote previously involved with the CIA somehow associated.
Speaker 3: Like we're not saying you're in Wu Tang, but you
Speaker 3: hang out with Riza a.
Speaker 2: Lot, are you? You are kind of in it for
Speaker 2: a little while.
Speaker 3: We're to say, you know, previously associated. It's it's terrible
Speaker 3: because imagine you know, the family of this poor, unfortunate kid,
Speaker 3: Harry Dunn.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: They're really pushing and they're asking really valley questions like
Speaker 3: why do the laws seem to be different for this person?
Speaker 3: In particular? Is the government of the United Kingdom giving
Speaker 3: this person special protection? And why won't they tell us
Speaker 3: exactly what's happening there in the UK right? Why can't
Speaker 3: we get the full disclosure? These are questions that just
Speaker 3: make the case look worse and worse.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and so she ends up appearing via video
Speaker 2: at the inquest what is known as there and she
Speaker 2: talks about all of this stuff. She's still in the
Speaker 2: United States. The United States refuses to extradite her to
Speaker 2: the UK to actually stand physical trial, to be there,
Speaker 2: as they call live give live evidence there, and she
Speaker 2: ends up pleading guilty right in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in October of twenty twenty two, via a remote
Speaker 3: video appearance in the UK court, she pleads guilty and
Speaker 3: she is sentenced to eight months in jail, suspended for
Speaker 3: twelve months. She's beenned from driving for twelve months. The
Speaker 3: entire time. The dun family is not happy with this,
Speaker 3: and I love that you're mentioning that pre existing UK
Speaker 3: US extradition treaty, which is a real thing. We have
Speaker 3: to remember the context in which this occurs. At this time,
Speaker 3: the UK is still refusing to extradite Wicked Leak's founder,
Speaker 3: Julian Assange. So the dun family, or i should say
Speaker 3: their legal team went to the UK government and said, well,
Speaker 3: what about this, Why don't you say give us skulas
Speaker 3: and you can have Assange, at which point the UK
Speaker 3: government apparently went oh pishposh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, but yes, imagine that somebody kills your
Speaker 2: child and you go through all of that for years.
Speaker 2: It's been three almost four years. Yeah, you're going through
Speaker 2: all of this legal stuff.
Speaker 3: Massive protest by the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. But then finally there is a there is
Speaker 2: a legal plea of guilty from the person that killed
Speaker 2: your son, but they're still in a different country and
Speaker 2: the judge cannot enforce any sentence on the person that
Speaker 2: killed your son because they're in a different country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they have no jurisdiction and that's issue, and that's it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: reminds us of our earlier episode on Saudi fugitives in
Speaker 3: the United States. You can see all sorts of Shenanig
Speaker 3: and ree Shanan. And if you allow people to uh
Speaker 3: Shanan once.
Speaker 4: What happens Shenani once again?
Speaker 3: Once again? For an even murcurer case. We could check out,
Speaker 3: well just for time. I don't know how far we're
Speaker 3: going to get into it, but do you check out
Speaker 3: what is called the Raymond Alan Davis incident with a
Speaker 3: guy in Pakistan, US national later revealed to be a
Speaker 3: CIA contractor, and it gets super dirty, super quick. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: it's an episode all its own out, but argume it.
Speaker 2: You can go back and listen to our episode. Oh
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was on the Saudi Arabian
Speaker 2: thing we talked about. I think the dude was from Qatar,
Speaker 2: sa Muhammad Almani. It was a yeah, Katari diplomat in
Speaker 2: the US. There was a lawsuit of some sort filed
Speaker 2: by people who said they were being kept at his
Speaker 2: palatial mansion.
Speaker 3: Over in Beverly Hills or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to work basically as indentured servants there.
Speaker 3: And it was the one lady who managed to scale
Speaker 3: the wall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because there were allegations of sexual assault and
Speaker 2: all kinds of other stuff happening along with the you know,
Speaker 2: the terrible human trafficking stuff. So it's just there's all
Speaker 2: kinds of examples like this where a human being is covered,
Speaker 2: usually by a country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and how about this, let's take a let's take
Speaker 3: a break for a word from our sponsors, and then
Speaker 3: let's let's explore some of those KSA Kingdom of Saudi
Speaker 3: Arabia cases in specific other types of immunity in shenanigans.
Speaker 4: And we've returned.
Speaker 5: So we're not saying that every single high level diplomat
Speaker 5: is out to do crimes. This is this is absolutely
Speaker 5: not the case. But it is important to remember and
Speaker 5: inarguably true that they do have a higher chance of
Speaker 5: getting away with some type of crime than your average
Speaker 5: person or tourists in another country. A diplomat is essentially
Speaker 5: a an officer of another country who is in a
Speaker 5: different country under the protection of their home country, with
Speaker 5: an agreement, you know, between that country and the country
Speaker 5: they're in. So they are more than an individual. They
Speaker 5: are afforded more rights and privileges.
Speaker 3: I don't just you know, I'm not here just as
Speaker 3: Ben Winter. I am here as a representative of the
Speaker 3: crowd for our conversations. Right now, I am the crown,
Speaker 3: right There's an autonomy to this, especially.
Speaker 5: An ambassador or some sort of you know, high level dignitary.
Speaker 3: So that means, yeah, just like you're saying Noel, that
Speaker 3: means any conflict or issue with that individual immediately becomes
Speaker 3: a state level problem, you know what I mean. Now,
Speaker 3: we're not just locking up some joker for loose Pokemon cards.
Speaker 3: Now we're locking up in a way the United States government.
Speaker 3: So we got to figure this out.
Speaker 5: Do you guys think in the way that we always
Speaker 5: joke about loose diamonds and go bags for folks that
Speaker 5: are about to go on the run. Do you think
Speaker 5: there's anyone that just has really really valuable Pokemon cards
Speaker 5: in there? Hell yeah, I think there must be. There
Speaker 5: have to made matter cards whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, full mock sets. I love that you dropped Ben Winter.
Speaker 2: M hm. That makes me very happy.
Speaker 3: So we have we have other cases of immunity that
Speaker 3: we I think we want to get to. Matt, you
Speaker 3: you mentioned an episode that I think really really stuck
Speaker 3: with all three of us. Back in twenty twenty, we
Speaker 3: asked why does the US have such a terrible track
Speaker 3: record letting Saudi fugitives flee the country even if they
Speaker 3: are so not convicted of crimes, but accused of crimes, right,
Speaker 3: maybe made a court appearance and then made bail because
Speaker 3: they're not hurting for money. Right. In this investigation, we
Speaker 3: discovered undeniable proof that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has,
Speaker 3: on multiple occasions in the US and in other countries,
Speaker 3: exercised state level power to extradite, to rescue Saudi nationals
Speaker 3: who are not diplomats, who are in some case just
Speaker 3: like might be college students a little after college. Right,
Speaker 3: they're not high level ambassadors. We're not talking about this.
Speaker 3: We're talking about people accused of human trafficking, sexual abuse,
Speaker 3: up to and including murder, and in each of these
Speaker 3: cases from that episode, we found that the KSA has
Speaker 3: loosely put a different interpretation of diplomatic immunity. They used
Speaker 3: proxy funding, straight up state funding to do stuff like
Speaker 3: provide clean passports, sometimes under different identities, which is a
Speaker 3: real supermove, to provide funding to secure bail if there
Speaker 3: was a court a period, and as soon as bail
Speaker 3: was made, KSA immediately transported these folks outside of that
Speaker 3: destination or host country, like private plane, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, off to the races. These folks don't wait
Speaker 3: in line at the security checkpoint. It also did not
Speaker 3: nine to eleven whatever, keep it.
Speaker 5: Oh that's right, No, I remember that there being some
Speaker 5: hay made about that. Yeah, about like certain diplomats receiving
Speaker 5: much more preferential treatments, you know, in a situation that
Speaker 5: was absolute pandemonium.
Speaker 2: Specifically from saudio behavior. You even some family members of
Speaker 2: the guard that they said masterminded the whole thing. It's cool,
Speaker 2: it's fine, everything's fine.
Speaker 3: Let's see a little podcast.
Speaker 2: Hey, black bagged shadow diplomats, guys, this is really fun
Speaker 2: honorary consoles. Well, please everyone, if you have time, please please,
Speaker 2: please please please head over to pro Publica and read
Speaker 2: a December twenty second, twenty twenty two article titled shadow
Speaker 2: diplomats have posed a threat For decades, the world's governments
Speaker 2: looked the other way. This is a fantastic article written
Speaker 2: by Debbie sen Zipper and several others from various reporting outlets,
Speaker 2: and this thing goes deep into people, including a shadow
Speaker 2: diplomat slash honorary console to the United States from guess where,
Speaker 2: guess where? Name of country?
Speaker 4: What did we say earlier?
Speaker 2: Botswana? Yes, just this is the guy working in the
Speaker 2: United States on the behalf of Botswana. And it, like
Speaker 2: the top of the article details how this guy was
Speaker 2: doing some weird stuff, paying off officials to basically as
Speaker 2: a bribe essentially that then would change where some pension
Speaker 2: funds went. And then he made like one point two
Speaker 2: to one point three million dollars off the top of
Speaker 2: the deal. And nobody officially vetted this guy, at.
Speaker 3: Least I I had to step out for a second.
Speaker 3: This is our honorary console.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, mister Robert Shoemake, Yeah, yeah, A very very
Speaker 2: interesting person and with Bob. Yeah, I don't know how
Speaker 2: he's doing right now. He could not be reached for
Speaker 2: comment back in December twenty twenty two. But I do
Speaker 2: know just in this article, it discusses how there are
Speaker 2: an estimated one one hundred honorary consoles from different countries
Speaker 2: in the United States operating within the US right now,
Speaker 2: or at least at that time. There's more or less
Speaker 2: who knows at this very moment in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: But this title operates much in the same way that
Speaker 2: all the other ones do. Where you've got a diplomatic
Speaker 2: pouch that can't be searched, you can't go to their
Speaker 2: office and search it the way you would some other place.
Speaker 2: If it is officially, you know, labeled as such and
Speaker 2: with the correct stuff, you officially can't wire tap them.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. And it's international law to protect
Speaker 2: these folks. But the biggest question that's put forth in
Speaker 2: this article shadow Diplomat's opposed a threat for decades is
Speaker 2: how are these individuals vetted? And then how is the
Speaker 2: State Department of the United States specifically aware of these
Speaker 2: honorary consoles in operation? And they found that it wasn't
Speaker 2: it I think it was twenty seventeen was the last
Speaker 2: time they had even checked on official records of who
Speaker 2: is operating in the US as honorary consoles from other countries,
Speaker 2: Like they took a five year span in between just
Speaker 2: checking to see who's operating.
Speaker 3: And it's the DOS response to this, if I recall,
Speaker 3: because I remember this being a huge hullabloo, thank you
Speaker 3: for your service pro publica. I remember the state departments
Speaker 3: idea or their argument in defense of this was to say, hey,
Speaker 3: this is a very large, complicated situation or miliu, and
Speaker 3: they essentially said they don't They implied they don't have
Speaker 3: the funding to do a detailed review of everybody. So
Speaker 3: they're saying, despite the fact that this is a very
Speaker 3: powerful position background checks. I don't know, man, just tell
Speaker 3: us if the ViBe's good.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well, mister Shoemate, the guy that we just
Speaker 2: talked about had been in big trouble in two thousand
Speaker 2: and two. He lost his real estate license for all
Speaker 2: kinds of under the table junk he was doing. He
Speaker 2: got in big, big trouble a couple years after that,
Speaker 2: and then he just happens to be operating in the
Speaker 2: US it's this honorary diplomat.
Speaker 3: We love tourism.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 2: Oh, there's a thing called the Office of Foreign Missions,
Speaker 2: which is something I didn't know about. They put out
Speaker 2: statements at the time of this investigation they're talking about.
Speaker 2: This is what they say. The Department has zero tolerance
Speaker 2: for evidence of inappropriate activity by any member of a
Speaker 2: foreign mission, including honorary consoles.
Speaker 3: I love that very pursuit of happiness. I remember reading that.
Speaker 3: So the office has zero tolerance not for criminal acts,
Speaker 3: but for evidence of cridminal acts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 3: remember that meeting. Yeah, man, this is this is crazy.
Speaker 3: I think maybe we do a third episode in this
Speaker 3: series just on shadow diplomacy. What say you?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, absolutely, this.
Speaker 2: Stuff is nuts and there's so many examples they give.
Speaker 3: In guys, and they're from the past. So maybe in
Speaker 3: our in our in our mission, on our continuing on
Speaker 3: our continuing knowledge, heist, maybe our mission is to find
Speaker 3: active shadow diplomats, which is legal to do. It's legal
Speaker 3: to ask that.
Speaker 2: There's a dude for from the Czech Republic who was
Speaker 2: an honorary console in two thousand and five, he tried
Speaker 2: to avoid paying taxes in Michigan, and Ohio on a
Speaker 2: sixteen thousand square foot home near Detroit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like the de thousand at that point
Speaker 3: just started church man, you know the game. We will
Speaker 3: make it so easy in this country.
Speaker 2: Well, he said the property was owned by the Czech government.
Speaker 2: It was transferred to the Czech government for the United
Speaker 2: States government cannot enforce any taxes high right.
Speaker 3: I think we've all been in that situation. You tried
Speaker 3: to do a couple moves as April approaches, Which government did?
Speaker 3: Which government? Did you seed your house? Do you met?
Speaker 2: Oh Botswana?
Speaker 3: Of course, of course, yes. This episode is brought to
Speaker 3: you by Botswada. Don't have the time to get into
Speaker 3: some other cases of things like diplomatic immunity, particularly a
Speaker 3: case that is always he's really haunted us, which we
Speaker 3: talked about briefly in our Uncaught serial Killers episode is
Speaker 3: Essay Sagawa. This guy is a the Quick Skinny. This
Speaker 3: is not appropriate for all audience members. The Quick Skinny
Speaker 3: is in nineteen eighty one in Paris, France. This guy,
Speaker 3: who is not a diplomat but the son of a
Speaker 3: very powerful industrial family in Japan. He murders a classmate
Speaker 3: and he proceeds to mutilate and defile the cadaver, and
Speaker 3: he consumes pieces of the corpse, consumes pieces of the flesh.
Speaker 3: He is dead to rights. He definitely did it, but
Speaker 3: his wealthy family pushes the needle, so instead of going
Speaker 3: to French prison, he goes to a psychiatric institution. A
Speaker 3: few years later, the family in Japan push again. He
Speaker 3: has deported back to Japan. He's declared saying all the
Speaker 3: paperwork regarding his case is lost, and he lives the
Speaker 3: rest of his life is a minor celebt, completely free.
Speaker 3: He didn't pass away until twenty twenty two, so he
Speaker 3: was alive while we were making this show. And he's
Speaker 3: a very evil person who got something like immunity. Because
Speaker 3: I feel like what this teaches us the most troubling
Speaker 3: thing is in the world of international intrigue, we are
Speaker 3: again and again like the lesson is hammered home. The
Speaker 3: crime itself is not as important as who you are
Speaker 3: when that crime is committed.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and the protections that are officially in place
Speaker 2: to save you and to help you get stuff in
Speaker 2: and out of a country through a pouch that nobody
Speaker 2: can look at, Like, think about what that means. Back
Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, US lawmakers wanted to change this
Speaker 2: and wanted to review how diplomats move in between countries
Speaker 2: with these pouches of anything. Could be arms, could be explosives,
Speaker 2: could be dreat drugs. Think about moving explosives quietly, secretly,
Speaker 2: without molestation by anybody on let's say an airplane.
Speaker 3: Sure, think think about a shipping container in the right port.
Speaker 2: It's just it is horrifying. In the nineteen eighties, guess
Speaker 2: what happened. Guess what happened with the whole diplomatic immunity review. Nothing, what,
Speaker 2: no way, absolutely nothing had died trying to get past.
Speaker 3: The thing is a good grift system, and this can
Speaker 3: be weaponized as a good grift system. It's like a carousel.
Speaker 3: Nobody wants to stop the ride because everybody's got their
Speaker 3: favorite horse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody's using it, man.
Speaker 3: And that's why these conversations keep going in circles. Let's
Speaker 3: do our part three on this. We do have a
Speaker 3: prediction for you, fellow conspiracy realist. The existing global power
Speaker 3: structure is increasingly imperiled. Right. We're in what people call
Speaker 3: a fluid situation, especially over the your future. So this
Speaker 3: means we have a high likelihood have seen more arguments
Speaker 3: about diplomatic immunity, more accusations of it being misused. Some
Speaker 3: claims of diplomatic immunity are going to be in good faith.
Speaker 3: They're meant to protect diplomats from actions and possibly hostile countries.
Speaker 3: But others, others may claim this immunity for less noble
Speaker 3: purposes to commit crime, to exercise espionage or worse. You know,
Speaker 3: reminds me of what our Russian friends always used to say.
Speaker 3: You'll love this, knull. Nobody makes bulletproof vest for a
Speaker 3: third story window.
Speaker 4: It's true, it's true.
Speaker 2: They do make those things they like, auto inflate when
Speaker 2: you fall over.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, bouncy castles, like we talked about. We've got
Speaker 3: a new business. We're very excited to share with you folks.
Speaker 3: We also, you know, the inflatable slides on planes, but
Speaker 3: you just can't put those on every window.
Speaker 2: Apparently, it's true, we could have, We could have all
Speaker 2: officials wear those suits that auto inflate when you fall
Speaker 2: then also sound yeah exactly.
Speaker 3: They were also a giant bubble.
Speaker 4: Immediately they look ridiculous too, but yeah, ridiculously sick.
Speaker 3: True, true, Maybe yeah, maybe we should normalize it. But
Speaker 3: then what does that lead us to. We'll tell you
Speaker 3: what this all inevitably proves. Inarguably, some people have a
Speaker 3: different set of rules, and this is the stuff they
Speaker 3: don't want you to know. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3: We can't wait for you to join us. In some
Speaker 3: upcoming episodes, we're going to talk about how you can
Speaker 3: break physics. We'll have a little bit of a stuff
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know book club with our
Speaker 3: favorite sabotage manual from evenings of yesteryear. And in the meantime,
Speaker 3: give us some suggestions for things we should cover in
Speaker 3: episodes on the wave. Find us online, give us a
Speaker 3: telephone call, or reach at our good old fashioned email address.
Speaker 4: It's right.
Speaker 5: You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
Speaker 5: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where
Speaker 5: it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter, and on YouTube
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Speaker 2: last pope is the next one the last pope? Does
Speaker 2: the pope matter? What about diplomatic community and all the
Speaker 2: stuff we talked about today. Just call us and say
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Speaker 3: the F bomb federal bombastic overlord, maneuverable blunderber ten ten
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