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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noble.

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Speaker 3: They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. And folks, we are

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Speaker 3: returning to you after an Easter weekend as we record

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Speaker 3: on Monday, April twenty first, Happy for twenty to all

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Speaker 3: who celebrated another correlation of holidays there.

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Speaker 4: It was a nice crossover.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, everyone was super mellow at the Easter egg Hugh

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Speaker 5: and also our ip the Pope.

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Speaker 3: Right, Pope Francis has passed away.

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Speaker 5: I mean they're gonna have to do the whole thing

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Speaker 5: right with the white smoke, right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: The Conclave, the black smoke if they don't reach a decision,

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Speaker 3: the white smoke when they find the new head of

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 5: Did you all see the movie Conclave that was recently

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Speaker 5: I quite enjoyed it. I thought it was an interesting

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Speaker 5: way of really dramatizing that but not being too heavy handed.

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Speaker 5: If anyone hasn't seen it and want of insight into

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Speaker 5: the process we're about to go through in the news,

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Speaker 5: check it out.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, because the Vatican is big with diplomatic immunity

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Speaker 3: ever since the Vienna Conventions.

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Speaker 4: Good tie in.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's the thing we're talking about, diplomatic immunity now.

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Speaker 3: In our first chapter on this, we had we had

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Speaker 3: so much to get to because it's a I don't

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Speaker 3: know if it's surprising, but it is an ancient concept.

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Speaker 3: That is where the old trope don't kill the messenger

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Speaker 3: comes from. You know, imagine what was the example we had.

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Speaker 3: Let's see Matt and Noel as respective rulers of their lands,

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Speaker 3: and they had to make sure that the guy they

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Speaker 3: sent to talk to the other team was able to

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Speaker 3: send and deliver or was able to go and return safely.

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Speaker 3: That's what diplomatic immunity is supposed to.

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Speaker 5: Allow you to do, and at its heart it makes

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Speaker 5: a lot of sense for you know, perhaps opposing forces

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Speaker 5: to be able to communicate for the purposes of either

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Speaker 5: getting ready for a conflict or you know, hopefully maybe

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Speaker 5: hashing things out. But that kind of dispensation for an

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Speaker 5: individual carrying important matters of state between these two factions,

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Speaker 5: it's very important for both parties for that individual to

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Speaker 5: be considered off limits in terms of you know, immediate retributions,

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Speaker 5: like y'all will have your time, let's work things out

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Speaker 5: and figure out some parameters and then we can murder

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Speaker 5: each other.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a lot of moments to which are

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Speaker 3: are frankly cinematic, even though this is the real world.

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Speaker 3: I'm always reminded of the copaganda shows where someone gets

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Speaker 3: busted for criminal activity and they get into you know,

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Speaker 3: the the interrogation room and they say, actually, I'm an

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Speaker 3: undercover cop. Because there have been cases where people claim

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Speaker 3: diplomatic immunity and appear to be civilians which don't get

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Speaker 3: that special dispensation or indulgence.

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Speaker 4: Dare we say that's a good that's a good word

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Speaker 4: for it, Ben, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's an indulgence. You know, Catholics are Catholicism is in

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Speaker 3: our minds today. It's the idea or there have been

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Speaker 3: moments where a government will say, okay, we have you

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Speaker 3: dead to rights, right, you know, where the government of

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Speaker 3: Pakistan you shot to people walked up to your car,

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Speaker 3: you shot one of them in the back, and then

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Speaker 3: they say, actually, I have diplomatic immunity. What, No, you don't.

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Speaker 3: You're a You're just an it guy.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, if you're an it guy for the State Department,

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Speaker 2: then perhaps there is something to discuss there, because there

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Speaker 2: are many a civilian looking person that worked for the

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Speaker 2: for any country, state department that end up in situations.

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Speaker 2: But as we talked about in the first episode, usually

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Speaker 2: diplomatic immunity is a thing that is stated to some

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Speaker 2: responding officer, like the initial encounter with some law enforcement

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Speaker 2: no matter where you are, that's when a card comes

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Speaker 2: out a card.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you talked about the pouch and all of that,

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Speaker 5: but there are obviously very well established credentials that one

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Speaker 5: could produce, absolutely encounter.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely and to be considered a working diplomat. You are

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Speaker 3: issue credentials for your time in the country that you're

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Speaker 3: that you're working in, right, and.

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Speaker 4: A one time thing like per use kind of it's okay.

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Speaker 3: It gets your credentials expire when you move on to

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Speaker 3: a different country. So in the case of the US

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Speaker 3: State Department, it's there's a thing where you you serve

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Speaker 3: essentially a tour for a few years in one country.

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Speaker 3: Then you move to another country. Your diplomatic credentials follow

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Speaker 3: with you country per country, So you can't like, you

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Speaker 3: can't do a number of years in Ghana and then

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Speaker 3: just on a lark go back to Ghana and say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm not paying parking tickets.

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Speaker 4: You can't just hop around.

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Speaker 5: There's no like diplomatic community, tourist package or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 5: You are typically stationed somewhere for a time and then

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Speaker 5: are reassigned, you know, and this is all above board,

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Speaker 5: at least in terms of the issuing government, the issuing country, right, yeah, correct.

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Speaker 2: It should be noted that it's funny. We talked about

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Speaker 2: it before, like when you're talking about an embassy and

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Speaker 2: diplomats and a consulate and consoles. One thing we didn't

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Speaker 2: bring up last time are honorary consoles.

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Speaker 4: I love an honorary anything. Well, yes, it's so funny.

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Speaker 2: Honorary consoles aka shadow diplomats is something Pro Publica talked

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Speaker 2: about a few years ago and we mentioned it. We

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Speaker 2: we talked about like what is that, What the heck

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Speaker 2: is an honorary console and how does that work? And

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Speaker 2: what kind of vetting process goes into making someone an

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Speaker 2: honorary console for a country.

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Speaker 5: Is it like getting an honorary degree where you're a

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Speaker 5: luminary in some field and they're just like, this guy

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Speaker 5: clearly could be a huge boon to us in terms

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Speaker 5: of diplomacy, right is that?

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Speaker 3: I like? I like that comparison because it is shadow

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Speaker 3: diplomacy is a part of diplomacy. It is murky. It's

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Speaker 3: such a as weird as it sounds in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: A lot of this stuff goes down to like gentlemen agreements,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. We have a special relationship

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Speaker 3: with the United Kingdom. We're sorry this kid died, but

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Speaker 3: we're going to work out some stuff, or in Pakistan

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Speaker 3: where the US will pay the blood price or called

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Speaker 3: da under Sharia law. But yeah, there's so much this

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Speaker 3: and I love that we're pointing out, you know, at

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Speaker 3: the very beginning, as he said, no, diplomatic immunity is

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Speaker 3: supposed to be a protective measure to allow diplomats freedom

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Speaker 3: of movement and activity. The most common example of diplomatic

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Speaker 3: immunity being abused is parking violations, and it's hilarious and

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Speaker 3: sometimes not paying taxes. The parking violation thing is hilarious

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Speaker 3: because at some point, even when an embassy racks up

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Speaker 3: tens of thousands of dollars of park tickets, at some

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Speaker 3: point there are very high level conversations between two governments

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Speaker 3: where they say, Okay, this guy parks like a dick,

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Speaker 3: but we can't make this world War three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. We talked about last episode, a

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Speaker 2: guy who had a bunch of these parking violations racked up,

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Speaker 2: got a dui, and then finally his embassy basically said,

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Speaker 2: you got to get out of here. Oh and you

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Speaker 2: got to pay all those back parking.

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Speaker 3: Tickets, right right, Yeah, indeed, Yeah, immunity in your destination

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Speaker 3: country is not the same thing. Well, we'll get into

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Speaker 3: this man. It gets so, it gets so crazy and spoiler,

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Speaker 3: you know, the problem runs much deeper than parking tickets.

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Speaker 5: And maybe this is off base to do here, but

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Speaker 5: I figured, from my own edification, I get it out

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Speaker 5: of the way. I think it might be fun to

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Speaker 5: talk quickly about the difference between a diplomat, an ambassador,

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Speaker 5: and a dignitary. Right, So it's like, while all ambassadors

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Speaker 5: are diplomats, not all diplomats are ambassadors. Ambassadors are like

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Speaker 5: the high mucky muck of diplomats representing a country attending

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Speaker 5: public kind of facing things right.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, like how all mazes or puzzles, right, not all

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Speaker 3: puzzles or mazes.

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Speaker 5: And a dignitary could be an ambassador and may have

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Speaker 5: diplomatic immunity or be accompanied by diplomats, But a dignitary

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Speaker 5: is more a foreign visitor to a country who holds

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Speaker 5: high rank of some kind, whether in.

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Speaker 3: The medlary of the government. Yeah, dignitary could just be

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Speaker 3: someone who, through genetic accident, is a member of an

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Speaker 3: aristocratic system, right, And that's how it used to go

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Speaker 3: in earlier evenings. So that's part of why diplomatic immunity exists,

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Speaker 3: because the first diplomats were like the siblings and the

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Speaker 3: cousins of the king, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, yeah, sometimes like proving themselves by being the one

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Speaker 5: that gets sort of pushed forth to like give the

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Speaker 5: bad news.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: That is funny.

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Speaker 5: Then even in fiction you see that a lot where

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Speaker 5: like the nephew or the son of the king will

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Speaker 5: appear in court to the opposition to make known the

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Speaker 5: intentions or wishes of you know, whom he represents.

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Speaker 3: The Habsburg say, we've got to talk to this foreign power.

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Speaker 3: Which one of us has the least weird chin.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, guys, while we've been having this conversation,

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Speaker 2: I've been delighted watching Nole's camera. For everybody listening, Noel

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Speaker 2: has a new cool camera and.

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Speaker 3: It moves, ye moves and zooms, and there's.

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Speaker 2: A portrait behind Nole's head kind of to his right,

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Speaker 2: and it keeps I think it keeps seeing that portrait

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Speaker 2: as a person standing behind Nol, and it keeps trying

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Speaker 2: to reframe.

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Speaker 4: For it's I could stand up and.

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Speaker 5: Look literally track me all the way to a standing position.

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Speaker 5: If anyone wants to nerd out with a sick monitor,

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Speaker 5: the Apple Studio display is expensive, but it's really really

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Speaker 5: cool and I'll never need another monitor again.

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Speaker 3: They are not paying us to say that fans the monitor.

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Speaker 3: With this, let's take a quick word from our sponsors,

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Speaker 3: and let's see just how deeply problematic and conspiratorial diplomatic

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Speaker 3: immunity can become. Here are the facts. Please, please please,

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Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realists, check out our first chapter of this

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Speaker 3: series before continuing, as we'll call in that exploration, we

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Speaker 3: talked about the ancient roots of what we call diplomatic

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Speaker 3: immunity today, and we talk about some crucial misconceptions. We're

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Speaker 3: gonna recap these briefly just to pop the top tonight,

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Speaker 3: because look, no judgment, but if you are diplomatic staff

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Speaker 3: in the audience this evening, I think we can all

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Speaker 3: agree it's better to know about these things in advance.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we hope you never find yourself in

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Speaker 3: a situation where knowing these misconceptions applies. I think the

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Speaker 3: first one we got a bust, and Matt you alluded

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Speaker 3: to it a little bit earlier. Not everyone gets this superpower.

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Speaker 3: Not everyone gets full or even partial immunity. If you just.

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Speaker 4: Trap are different.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, it's like all the conversation and caveated and loophold,

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Speaker 3: and we'll get to some specific cases, but the main

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Speaker 3: takeaway is that if you do not have the official cosign,

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Speaker 3: you cannot one hundred percent assume that your origin country

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Speaker 3: will support you'll back you up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But there are instances where some

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Speaker 2: form of diplomatic community will get you out of like

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Speaker 2: you said, parking tickets, but like a moving violation if

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Speaker 2: you're speeding to a certain extent in certain states, even

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Speaker 2: if you have immunity, you're still going to have to

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Speaker 2: go to court to face those charges because that is

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Speaker 2: not a part of your official duties.

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Speaker 3: Right, That's one of the other that's one of the

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Speaker 3: other misconceptions. I'm glad we're bringing that up. So look,

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Speaker 3: if you are not granted this superpower, which most people

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Speaker 3: don't possess, it doesn't matter what's legal in your origin country.

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Speaker 3: If you are safe. If you are from a place

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Speaker 3: where cannabis is decriminalized or even fully legal, and you

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Speaker 3: travel to a place where it's not legal, you're still

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Speaker 3: in trouble. You can't be like, I'm sorry, you know

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Speaker 3: me and mar or whatever. I apologize Singapore, but weed

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Speaker 3: is fine in Portland.

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Speaker 4: Well question or just made me example.

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Speaker 5: I have a friend who owned that name, but did

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Speaker 5: get detained in an Asian country in Korea, right was

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Speaker 5: Korea for having a weed vape. And it was right

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Speaker 5: when there is a big kerfuffle and the changeover in

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Speaker 5: the government there, and so this individual.

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Speaker 4: Was held for a day.

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Speaker 5: I want to say, but like the moment that that

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Speaker 5: shuffle happened, they were released. I'm wondering if you know,

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Speaker 5: even if you're not a diplomat, you are a citizen

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Speaker 5: of another country, and there are almost always an opportunity

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Speaker 5: for that to be an act of diplomacy of some kind,

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Speaker 5: to either mess with or not mess with someone from

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Speaker 5: another country, depending on the nature of your relationship.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, many factors go into this. People, anyone can

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Speaker 3: become a pawn right on the board. We've seen a

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Speaker 3: piece of leverage. We have seen many multiple times. We

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Speaker 3: also know, to your point earlier that you raised Matt

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Speaker 3: this this get out of jail free card. This actual immunity,

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Speaker 3: like the high level immunity, it applies to top notch staff,

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Speaker 3: the bigger family of dogs and there families UH and ambassadors.

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Speaker 3: And part of the part of the reasonable see is

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Speaker 3: that's simply a necessity of state craft. But even if

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Speaker 3: you have this immunity, even if you are the ambassador

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Speaker 3: or family member of UH, you know, the ambassador's crew,

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Speaker 3: a member of the ambassador's family, say, yeah, the protection

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Speaker 3: only technically applies in the course of your official duties.

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Speaker 3: So let's say you are the US ambassador to UH.

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Speaker 3: Let's pick a random country. When we don't talk about Oftenswana.

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Speaker 3: It's perfect. And also I love Ladies Detective Agency.

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Speaker 4: That one was great.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I forgot all about that with Jill Scott, who

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Speaker 5: we had a podcast with here on the network for

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Speaker 5: quite a little while.

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Speaker 3: So you're the US ambassador to Botswana. For some reason,

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Speaker 3: in addition to your duties, you picked up a side

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Speaker 3: hustle where you're stealing Pokemon cards and bulk. You're just

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Speaker 3: you're lifting the trucks. You're hoisting them, just like that

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Speaker 3: meat heist, and they fell off the trucks.

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Speaker 2: Sure, all right, it sounds like a shadow diplomat, So all.

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Speaker 5: Right, all right, all right, which which ironically is also

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Speaker 5: the name of a Pokemon.

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Speaker 3: So if you get caught boosting all these Pokemon cars

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Speaker 3: sweet sweet Poke, Yeah, then yeah, boosting these boosters. Uh,

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Speaker 3: if you've got mad boosties like Jack and Miles, then

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Speaker 3: you have to you would have to explain somehow why

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Speaker 3: boosting truckloads of sweet Pokemon merch is part of your

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Speaker 3: job as the ambassador. First off, how do you find

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Speaker 3: the time of the day. But secondly, how would you

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Speaker 3: explain that? It sounds cut and dry. But then to

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Speaker 3: that earlier point we made, there's so many other complicated

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Speaker 3: intervening factors. They're not really asking whether or not you

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Speaker 3: committed a that's that's fine, that happens, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's a conversation somewhere else. But the next

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Speaker 3: questions in that conversation are going to be, like, do

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Speaker 3: we have any sensitive deals between the two countries? Does

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Speaker 3: rocking the boat? Like does does dying on this hill

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Speaker 3: or fighting for the good grace of Pokemon? Is that

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Speaker 3: going to mess up our pipeline, our telecom deal?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 3: And to think about it.

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Speaker 4: And it's pretty gross and cliche.

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Speaker 5: But an example that always seems to come up and

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Speaker 5: fictionalized accounts of these type of exchanges are like someone

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Speaker 5: has killed a sex worker, you know, in a hotel room,

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Speaker 5: and they know, and we have to either decide is

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Speaker 5: this person so high level and valuable that we're going

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Speaker 5: to cover it up for them?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: Like it's it's it's almost a joke.

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Speaker 3: Right right, And sometimes sometimes people choose pretty strident solutions

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Speaker 3: to those conversations. Another thing, is there a quid pro quote?

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Speaker 3: Is there an opportunity in the chaos, you know, we

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Speaker 3: could maybe swap some prisoners, or swap some tourists or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Does if we're one country, do we want something from

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Speaker 3: the other. Could we leverage this criminal case to help

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Speaker 3: us in that conversation, like we want a different kind

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Speaker 3: of trade deal, tariff regimen. So maybe Johnny Blue jeans,

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Speaker 3: my favorite, doesn't have to get booked for murder. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's it's weird. They all come into play. The third

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Speaker 3: misconception that we cannot emphasize over emphasize is that your immunity,

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Speaker 3: even if you have, you know, premium plus America immunity,

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Speaker 3: it can be revoked no matter who you are. You

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Speaker 3: push the envelope too far and you can get cut loose.

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Speaker 3: And this always the way this happens is. Let's say

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Speaker 3: there's a serious crime, domestic abuse, money laundry via diplomatic pouches,

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Speaker 3: which we shouted out earlier, and I think we're all

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Speaker 3: still fascinated with the destination country, the country where that

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Speaker 3: crime occurred or where that diplomat is supposed to be working.

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Speaker 3: They can make a phone call, sort of like your

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Speaker 3: friend's parents at a sleepover can call your parents if

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Speaker 3: you're misbehaving at the sleepover, and they can say when

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Speaker 3: the country's called, they say, look, can you guys just

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Speaker 3: tell us, this person does not have diplomatic immunity, And

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Speaker 3: sometimes the other country will say, yeah, wait, truckloads of pokemon.

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Speaker 3: Forget that guy.

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Speaker 5: No, no, too much, a bridge too far, bridge too far.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And we talked about an example of that where

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Speaker 2: a woman was caught shoplifting and she happened to be

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Speaker 2: the spouse of a diplomat, so she had diplomatic immunity

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Speaker 2: through his employment with the state department or some state department,

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Speaker 2: and she was not arrested, but the state department was notified,

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Speaker 2: and so basically they then said, actually, you don't have

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Speaker 2: immunity from this specific thing.

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Speaker 4: She did end up getting.

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Speaker 2: In quite a bit of trouble for stealing three thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars worth of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Which at that let you don't need to why she

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Speaker 3: wasn't doing it to eat. Yeah, it was shoplifting. It's

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Speaker 3: such a weird one. That's an excellent example. We also

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Speaker 3: have to note that countries can be hesitant to waive immunity.

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Speaker 3: First off, not all spouses and family members get tucked

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Speaker 3: up into diplomatic immunity. It can vary due to a

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Speaker 3: number of factors. But if like let's imagine we're the

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Speaker 3: United States, and tri Force is president, best president in

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Speaker 3: recent history. Obviously, thank you for your service, Andrew. Your

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Speaker 3: administration is not going to be super open to waving

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Speaker 3: immunity in general, because it can set a precedent. You

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Speaker 3: want the people who work for you to know that

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Speaker 3: they do have some degree of protection. Otherwise it feels

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Speaker 3: like you're throwing people to the wolves.

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Speaker 5: So even the term immunity also of course makes one

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Speaker 5: think of immunity in testifying, like in court cases. Right,

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Speaker 5: it's just sort of like that usually almost always is

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Speaker 5: a quid pro quo situation, right where they're like, you

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Speaker 5: do something for us, and we're going to make sure

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Speaker 5: that you're not in trouble or that you're get a

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Speaker 5: lesser sentence or whatever. But even immunity is more than that, Like,

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Speaker 5: it's more than just getting a lesser sentence. Usually it

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Speaker 5: involves testifying against somebody so that the things that you

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Speaker 5: do are not going to prevent you from doing that,

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Speaker 5: and that you are able to have a clean slate

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Speaker 5: even though you are known.

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Speaker 4: To have perhaps colluded with said individual or charges.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true, lesser charges. Yeah, So it be immunity

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Speaker 3: from something like in a case, community from maybe the

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Speaker 3: death penalty or we're not going to get you on

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Speaker 3: this level of racketeering.

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Speaker 5: Full immunity, however, would probably be rare, and maybe more

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Speaker 5: of the stuff of you know, TV procedurals.

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Speaker 3: It can happen. You know, it's happened. Shout out paper clip,

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Speaker 3: a couple of things, a couple of other related things

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Speaker 3: from World War Two. But yeah, you're absolutely on the

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Speaker 3: money there, man, because if you grant full immunity, it

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Speaker 3: is almost always a kind of payment for services rendered.

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Speaker 3: Help us get the bigger fish, quid pro quo. Look,

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Speaker 3: if the home country does not waive immunity, which they

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Speaker 3: often will not, then the destination country still has a

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Speaker 3: couple of other rabbits in the top hat. The most prominent,

381
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Speaker 3: of course, is declaring an individual persona non grata, which

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Speaker 3: is the fancy Latin way of saying you're not welcome here,

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Speaker 3: go away. It could happen to civilians as well, but

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Speaker 3: when it happens to diplomats it usually also bundles in

385
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Speaker 3: things like revoking their diplomatic credentials and expelling them from

386
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Speaker 3: the country. Also, if you're declared persona and on grata

387
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Speaker 3: in a country, you can't stay there. You know what

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Speaker 3: I mean. You don't have to go home, but you

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Speaker 3: can't stay in Nepal or whatever.

390
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Speaker 4: You know, was that semisonic supersonic semisonic?

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Speaker 3: I mean, oh, closing time, hmm.

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Speaker 4: You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

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Speaker 4: Stay here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. This idea of expulsion or persona no grata important

395
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Speaker 3: to note that is entirely the destination country's decision. They

396
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Speaker 3: can make it at any time. They don't need approval

397
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Speaker 3: from the home country of a diplomat. When we saw,

398
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Speaker 3: you know, the outbreak of the newest iteration of Russia's

399
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Speaker 3: war against Ukraine and their invasion thereof there was internet

400
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 3: furor and a lot of Russian diplomats were just expelled.

401
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 3: Nobody was asking the home country of Russia to really

402
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: wave immunity. They just kick the people out and it's

403
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 3: their decision. So immunity is not as sacro sanct as

404
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 3: we might think it is. And the last, maybe the

405
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,719
Speaker 3: most important point is if you successfully claim diplomatic immunity

406
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 3: in one country, that does not mean that you're free

407
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Speaker 3: from all consequences. You might get away with some very

408
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 3: unclean evil stuff in say like the Japanese diplomat in

409
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Speaker 3: Canada that we mentioned earlier, right, domestic violence case. But

410
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Speaker 3: then you get kicked out, you get the boot, you

411
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Speaker 3: get shipped back home, and you have consequences in your

412
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Speaker 3: home country. In this guy's case in Japan, you get demoted,

413
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Speaker 3: you might face criminal charges in your country of origin.

414
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: All they did was move you to a different justice system,

415
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Speaker 3: a system to which you are not, in this case immune.

416
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 3: There you go. And so again, despite all these loopholes,

417
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 3: these caveats, these asterisks, there's no escaping. A diplomatic community

418
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: is powerful, it's necessary. I also think it purposely bakes

419
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 3: in a window of time, right, everybody saying, don't act

420
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Speaker 3: too rashly, give us some time to go through this.

421
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: You know, if there wasn't immunity on some level, there

422
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Speaker 3: wouldn't be anything stopping a hostile country from just rounding

423
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Speaker 3: up foreign ministry or embassy staff whenever they please and

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Speaker 3: then making charges to support their agenda. That's true, that's true.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because we talked about in the past, in

426
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Speaker 2: the way way past, especially before those conventions, you could

427
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: just you could round up everybody and accuse them of

428
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: being spies, right, And that still occurs these days where

429
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: diplomats are kicked out unceremoniously from countries when their country

430
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: of origin is in some way embroiled in a conflict,

431
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: whether cold, hot or you know what, lukewarm, I guess,

432
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Speaker 2: uh yeah, countries will just say, hey, you have to

433
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Speaker 2: get out now. That happened with the United States and

434
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Speaker 2: Cuba not that long ago. That's the last one I

435
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 2: can remember. But I know that there's other stuff happening

436
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: even right now, where because of all of the trade

437
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: war that's happening, some diplomatic relationships are being highly strained

438
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: and potentially moving.

439
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: That reminds me, when are we going to Hong Kong?

440
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: You were going to Hong Kong whenever you please?

441
00:26:53,920 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 3: Or but this, Yeah, and that's a great example. We

442
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: also see that again with European governments and Russian diplomats

443
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 3: right often related to windows stumbles or polonium underwear, but

444
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 3: more so related recently to the invasion of Ukraine. In

445
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 3: this power that is diplomatic community, it's a superpower, we

446
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: also see opportunity for crime, corruption, and conspiracy. So tonight,

447
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 3: what happens when this gets misused? What happens when things

448
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: go wrong We're going to pause for a word from

449
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 3: our sponsors, who are hopefully the State Department, and we'll

450
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 3: be back. Here's where it gets crazy. We previously talked

451
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 3: about we sort of categorized it into different types of corruption.

452
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 3: The first one is that people might not follow the rules.

453
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: The second one is that members of diplomatic state can

454
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: knowingly use their position to aid and a bet or

455
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: originate criminal acts. One thing we didn't talk about earlier

456
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 3: in chapter one is the nebulous gray area. So we

457
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 3: mentioned that people will do People will only get diplomatic

458
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: immunity technically if it's in the course of their official employment.

459
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: So riddle me this, guys. Does diplomatic immunity apply to

460
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: acts of trade craft of espionage?

461
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: So well, I guess it depends on what they're caught for.

462
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 3: Right and who you're asking. Right. On the one hand, right,

463
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: if you're the origin country, you could say internally, this

464
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 3: does qualify as an act carried out in the course

465
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: of an employment period. This is a job, right. But

466
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: on the other hand, if you are the destination country

467
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: where these shenanigans occur and you catch a foreign spine,

468
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:03,719
Speaker 3: that's probably a crime.

469
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, wherever it's occurring for sure. Well, it's one

470
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: of those things. Are you Are you working for the

471
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: state Department for some private industry from for some private company,

472
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: and are you.

473
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 3: Our contractor how does that work?

474
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but you're let's say you're copying files and

475
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: putting them onto a drive of some sort to transfer somewhere.

476
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: But as a part of your official job for that

477
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: private company, you're just doing your job. You're also just

478
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: doing your job as your employment for the State Department?

479
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: Is what part of that could be argued as like

480
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: not being part of your official duties? You know, like

481
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: and is that just the espionage?

482
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: But that's the word too official, is it not? You

483
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 3: know what I mean? The US Administration comes back and says,

484
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: holy smokes, we're just as surprised as you. This was

485
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 3: Ori T guy. He's there to like turn on on

486
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 3: the server.

487
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know, you're you're absolutely right. But what

488
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: if you are just driving to a destination, right? Is

489
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: that a part of your official duties, driving to where

490
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: you're supposed to function and.

491
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: You just happen to have a telescope, some scissors, a

492
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: couple pieces of cloth, GPS system, that's all off the books.

493
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: Well, but they can't search your car because you've got immunity.

494
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: Right, that's why you throw it out while you're driving away.

495
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 3: This is we're alluding to a specific case. But yeah,

496
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: you're absolutely right, Matt. As ever, you know, in these situations,

497
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: countries will often come together, right, work out a deal,

498
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 3: grab some coffee in Vienna, what the hell have you?

499
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: And the way this gets us to something we talked

500
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: about so often in the past and remains true regardless

501
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: of where you live. You as a member of the public,

502
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: as a domestic populace, your government speaks very differently to

503
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 3: you than your government speaks to other governments behind closed doors.

504
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: In general, people don't want to rock the boat. They're

505
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 3: very smart at this level. They have dozens hundreds of

506
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 3: other factors to consider, and that's why you know you'll

507
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: see people do crimes and the worst thing that happens

508
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: is they get expelled. The countries that expel diplomats are

509
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: genuinely concerned that if they crack down too hard, they

510
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: are going to be economic consequences. Other countries are going

511
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 3: to say, we're not sending our people here, and then

512
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 3: that spells disaster for goodwill. Perhaps more immediately it spells

513
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 3: disaster for trade agreements. So that's really what goes on

514
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: trial or in consideration.

515
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's when the tariffs begin.

516
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: It's so weird, man, Like, it's surreal, it's infuriating, and

517
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 3: it bothers me. Like, let's say you are running a country.

518
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: Your law enforcement has someone dead to rights, like they

519
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 3: know they were digging dirt. This insert embassy employee here

520
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: is not what they seem right, and they're breaking the

521
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: laws of our country. But we can't do anything because

522
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: we need this telecom deal, right, we need this pipeline.

523
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: We've got so many you know, pistachios to ship abroad

524
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: or whatever it may be. That's the trickiest part. People

525
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: can get away with crimes, and even when they are punished,

526
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: the consequences they encounter can be extremely different from those

527
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: of the average civilian criminal. So maybe we talk about

528
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: some specific examples, you know, getting away with murder. People

529
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: do get away with a lot way pass, parking tickets,

530
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 3: cases of child abuse, domestic violence, manslaughter. We're naming specific

531
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: we're referencing specific cases. And in each of those specific

532
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: genres of case we're referencing, there's more than one example.

533
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: So with these considerations, yes, in theory, a diplomat of

534
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: a certain level could murder someone purposely or through negligence.

535
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: They could refuse to be arrested, they could skip down.

536
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: In practice, that doesn't prevent them from being judged sometimes

537
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 3: in absentia, sometimes as we'll see remotely, like imagine appearing

538
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 3: to court via video. And at this point we see

539
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 3: all those soft factors we mentioned previously. We also see

540
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: the idea, as cold as it sounds, of taking a

541
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: tragedy and engineering from that tragedy and opportunity. Could we

542
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: have some sort of prisoner trade, a mutual extradition agreement.

543
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 3: This brings us to the case of Harry Dunn from

544
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: August twenty seven, twenty nineteen.

545
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Harry Dunn is on a motorcycle and he is

546
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: traveling down the road. He is in the United Kingdom,

547
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: so he is traveling on the left side of the

548
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: road as Yeah, as he's making his way. It's a kid.

549
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: It's already a dangerous situation being on a motorcycle right well,

550
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: as he's traveling down the road as he should be,

551
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 2: someone is traveling towards him on his side of the road,

552
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: so they are traveling on the right side of the road,

553
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: which is wrong way traffic in the UK, and this

554
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: person strikes him with their vehicle and he is ultimately

555
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: killed because of the accident, I guess the collision as

556
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: you would call that. And then after the driver of

557
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: the vehicle flags down some others is attempting to get help.

558
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: Then it has found out that this forty five year

559
00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: old woman, and Seculas has this thing called diplomatic immunity.

560
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 3: The US argues that she has this thing called diplomatic immunity.

561
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 3: The United Kingdom disagrees. Harry Dunn is not doing bad stuff.

562
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: He's driving on the right side of the road. He's

563
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 3: a kid who likes his motorcycle. Seculis is married to

564
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:29,959
Speaker 3: a CIA employee who at the time is stationed as

565
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 3: at a listening station raf Crowton, and Seculis claim does

566
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 3: cooperate with police, right does try to help this help

567
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: make things not a fatality. But young Harry Dunn does

568
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: expire at the major trauma center in Oxford, the John

569
00:35:51,880 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 3: Radcliffe Hospital, And when Seculis is speaking with police, we

570
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: know that we know that things were a little murky

571
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: at the beginning. There were a lot of conversations, because again,

572
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 3: the idea of being the spouse of a diplomat hinges

573
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 3: onto negotiable variables. Right, First, is the diplomat high level

574
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 3: enough to get that kind of family protection? Second, do

575
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: both countries agree that person counts as a diplomat.

576
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 5: And are the privileges exactly the same every time? Or

577
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 5: is there no?

578
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 4: Kay, I didn't think so.

579
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 5: I mean for the spouse, like, they don't automatically get

580
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 5: all of the same protections as the actual facts diplomat.

581
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: It depends on the level, you know, like if you're

582
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 3: the ambassador level, then there will be more privileges afforded,

583
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 3: and it really is a privilege. So this is the thing.

584
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: Secoolest admits that she's driving on the wrong side of

585
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: the road. This is further confirmed by CCTV footage. No

586
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: one is arguing that she did not do this, that

587
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 3: she was not responsible for this fatal collision. Instead, everyone

588
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 3: is frantically trying to figure out what happens next. So

589
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 3: Coolest doesn't really wait, I mean, she talks with police,

590
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 3: she cooperates, right, but then she claims diplomatic immunity. She

591
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: skips town and before this makes her sound like an

592
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 3: utter villain, because I'm sure many of us have never

593
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: heard the name before. She likely took these actions on

594
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 3: the explicit orders of the US government. They told her

595
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: what to do, she did what they said. She wasn't

596
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 3: becoming some kind of international ghost.

597
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: No, but it certainly didn't look great at the time,

598
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: because it is essentially somebody leaving the scene of you know,

599
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: a homicide.

600
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: Or well not just the scene in the country.

601
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, but it's just somebody who got

602
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: out got out right when when trouble arose and she

603
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: did something really really wrong. It's my understanding though, that

604
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: then the United States and the United Kingdom we're working

605
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: together to say, hey, what can we do here? Like

606
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: this seems weird? Like what is this loophole being a

607
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: she's an analyst, but she's a spouse of this diplomat,

608
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: So why she has community? What do we do?

609
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 3: She's the spouse of a guy we the US consider

610
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: a diplomat for these purposes.

611
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 5: Yes, actually, probably was she just confused about what country

612
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 5: she is?

613
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 4: Then wow, wow, she left intoxicated.

614
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: Well I don't understand. No, no, it doesn't seem to

615
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: be intoxication. There was a breathalyzer deployed on the scene.

616
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: Looks more like she was leaving the base and perhaps

617
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: doing distracted driving. There was actually a prior issue with

618
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 3: distracted driving here in the US a few years prior,

619
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 3: I see, and they'd only been in only been in

620
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 3: the UK about three weeks.

621
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

622
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: This is a quote from her. As I turned out

623
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: of the exit from the Air Force base, taking a

624
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: left turn, I instinctively moved to the right side of

625
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: the road.

626
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 4: She was confused about what country she was in.

627
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 2: Well, well, she said, I knew that the proper side

628
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 2: of the road to drive was the left side, not

629
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: the right side, as I was accustomed to driving in

630
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: the US. My action was based on instinct and not

631
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: recalling in the moment that I should should have been

632
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: driving on the other.

633
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: Side and maybe be on your phone, maybe maybe be

634
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 3: that's if you look at the case, that's what they're arguing.

635
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 5: I've never had to drive in the UK, but I

636
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 5: do every time I see it in a film or

637
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 5: a TV show.

638
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 4: Whatever I do, my mind does like recoils a little bit.

639
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 4: Like I do.

640
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 5: Think there would be situations where it would be easy

641
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 5: to follow that muscle memory and just kind of screw up.

642
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, especially if you are you know, you're

643
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: newly minted in this place with a different set of

644
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 3: literal rules of the road. The important thing is the

645
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 3: government of the Unining Kingdom was in continual contact with

646
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 3: the government of the United States after this collision occurred.

647
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 2: And did we say she went to the US.

648
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 3: Yes, she's skipped out, but to the US.

649
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, so she not is some malicious kind of fleeing

650
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 5: the scene kind of why.

651
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 3: No, No, the US government told her to do that

652
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 3: and she followed those instructions, the US and the British government. Also,

653
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 3: this is a thing that didn't get reported immediately. The

654
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 3: British government was aware of this and they were like,

655
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: you can see text messages whether we're speaking with each other,

656
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 3: and the Foreign Minister was saying, look, we don't We

657
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: asked you guys to wave immunity and you said no,

658
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 3: we don't approve of this individual leaving the country. We

659
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 3: have strong reservations. But since you refused to waive immunity

660
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 3: and she claimed diplomatic immunity, we are not going to

661
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 3: prevent her from boarding the next flight home. And that's

662
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 3: exactly what happened. And as the case winds on, there's

663
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 3: a lot of tension between the UK and the US.

664
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 3: The British public is asking more and more questions. Journalists

665
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 3: over in the UK, who are pretty great at their jobs,

666
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: they verify that Seculas is how did they they had

667
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: to be so careful at first? Because they're reporting laws?

668
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 3: She was quote previously involved with the CIA somehow associated.

669
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 3: Like we're not saying you're in Wu Tang, but you

670
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 3: hang out with Riza a.

671
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 2: Lot, are you? You are kind of in it for

672
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: a little while.

673
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 3: We're to say, you know, previously associated. It's it's terrible

674
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: because imagine you know, the family of this poor, unfortunate kid,

675
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: Harry Dunn.

676
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 5: Uh.

677
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 3: They're really pushing and they're asking really valley questions like

678
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: why do the laws seem to be different for this person?

679
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: In particular? Is the government of the United Kingdom giving

680
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 3: this person special protection? And why won't they tell us

681
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: exactly what's happening there in the UK right? Why can't

682
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 3: we get the full disclosure? These are questions that just

683
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 3: make the case look worse and worse.

684
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and so she ends up appearing via video

685
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 2: at the inquest what is known as there and she

686
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: talks about all of this stuff. She's still in the

687
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 2: United States. The United States refuses to extradite her to

688
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: the UK to actually stand physical trial, to be there,

689
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: as they call live give live evidence there, and she

690
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: ends up pleading guilty right in twenty twenty two.

691
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, in October of twenty twenty two, via a remote

692
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,439
Speaker 3: video appearance in the UK court, she pleads guilty and

693
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 3: she is sentenced to eight months in jail, suspended for

694
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: twelve months. She's beenned from driving for twelve months. The

695
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 3: entire time. The dun family is not happy with this,

696
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: and I love that you're mentioning that pre existing UK

697
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 3: US extradition treaty, which is a real thing. We have

698
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 3: to remember the context in which this occurs. At this time,

699
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 3: the UK is still refusing to extradite Wicked Leak's founder,

700
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 3: Julian Assange. So the dun family, or i should say

701
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 3: their legal team went to the UK government and said, well,

702
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 3: what about this, Why don't you say give us skulas

703
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: and you can have Assange, at which point the UK

704
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 3: government apparently went oh pishposh.

705
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, but yes, imagine that somebody kills your

706
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: child and you go through all of that for years.

707
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: It's been three almost four years. Yeah, you're going through

708
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: all of this legal stuff.

709
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 3: Massive protest by the way.

710
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. But then finally there is a there is

711
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: a legal plea of guilty from the person that killed

712
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: your son, but they're still in a different country and

713
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: the judge cannot enforce any sentence on the person that

714
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: killed your son because they're in a different country.

715
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, they have no jurisdiction and that's issue, and that's it. Yeah,

716
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 3: reminds us of our earlier episode on Saudi fugitives in

717
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 3: the United States. You can see all sorts of Shenanig

718
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 3: and ree Shanan. And if you allow people to uh

719
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 3: Shanan once.

720
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 4: What happens Shenani once again?

721
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 3: Once again? For an even murcurer case. We could check out,

722
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: well just for time. I don't know how far we're

723
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 3: going to get into it, but do you check out

724
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 3: what is called the Raymond Alan Davis incident with a

725
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: guy in Pakistan, US national later revealed to be a

726
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 3: CIA contractor, and it gets super dirty, super quick. Oh yeah,

727
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 3: it's an episode all its own out, but argume it.

728
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: You can go back and listen to our episode. Oh

729
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was on the Saudi Arabian

730
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 2: thing we talked about. I think the dude was from Qatar,

731
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 2: sa Muhammad Almani. It was a yeah, Katari diplomat in

732
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 2: the US. There was a lawsuit of some sort filed

733
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 2: by people who said they were being kept at his

734
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: palatial mansion.

735
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 3: Over in Beverly Hills or something.

736
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, to work basically as indentured servants there.

737
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 3: And it was the one lady who managed to scale

738
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 3: the wall.

739
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because there were allegations of sexual assault and

740
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 2: all kinds of other stuff happening along with the you know,

741
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: the terrible human trafficking stuff. So it's just there's all

742
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 2: kinds of examples like this where a human being is covered,

743
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: usually by a country.

744
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, and how about this, let's take a let's take

745
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 3: a break for a word from our sponsors, and then

746
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 3: let's let's explore some of those KSA Kingdom of Saudi

747
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: Arabia cases in specific other types of immunity in shenanigans.

748
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 4: And we've returned.

749
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 5: So we're not saying that every single high level diplomat

750
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 5: is out to do crimes. This is this is absolutely

751
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 5: not the case. But it is important to remember and

752
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 5: inarguably true that they do have a higher chance of

753
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 5: getting away with some type of crime than your average

754
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 5: person or tourists in another country. A diplomat is essentially

755
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 5: a an officer of another country who is in a

756
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 5: different country under the protection of their home country, with

757
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 5: an agreement, you know, between that country and the country

758
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 5: they're in. So they are more than an individual. They

759
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 5: are afforded more rights and privileges.

760
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 3: I don't just you know, I'm not here just as

761
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 3: Ben Winter. I am here as a representative of the

762
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 3: crowd for our conversations. Right now, I am the crown,

763
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 3: right There's an autonomy to this, especially.

764
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 5: An ambassador or some sort of you know, high level dignitary.

765
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 3: So that means, yeah, just like you're saying Noel, that

766
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 3: means any conflict or issue with that individual immediately becomes

767
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 3: a state level problem, you know what I mean. Now,

768
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 3: we're not just locking up some joker for loose Pokemon cards.

769
00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: Now we're locking up in a way the United States government.

770
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 3: So we got to figure this out.

771
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 5: Do you guys think in the way that we always

772
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 5: joke about loose diamonds and go bags for folks that

773
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 5: are about to go on the run. Do you think

774
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,240
Speaker 5: there's anyone that just has really really valuable Pokemon cards

775
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 5: in there? Hell yeah, I think there must be. There

776
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 5: have to made matter cards whatever.

777
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, full mock sets. I love that you dropped Ben Winter.

778
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: M hm. That makes me very happy.

779
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 3: So we have we have other cases of immunity that

780
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 3: we I think we want to get to. Matt, you

781
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 3: you mentioned an episode that I think really really stuck

782
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 3: with all three of us. Back in twenty twenty, we

783
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 3: asked why does the US have such a terrible track

784
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: record letting Saudi fugitives flee the country even if they

785
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 3: are so not convicted of crimes, but accused of crimes, right,

786
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 3: maybe made a court appearance and then made bail because

787
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 3: they're not hurting for money. Right. In this investigation, we

788
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 3: discovered undeniable proof that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has,

789
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 3: on multiple occasions in the US and in other countries,

790
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 3: exercised state level power to extradite, to rescue Saudi nationals

791
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: who are not diplomats, who are in some case just

792
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: like might be college students a little after college. Right,

793
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 3: they're not high level ambassadors. We're not talking about this.

794
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 3: We're talking about people accused of human trafficking, sexual abuse,

795
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 3: up to and including murder, and in each of these

796
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 3: cases from that episode, we found that the KSA has

797
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 3: loosely put a different interpretation of diplomatic immunity. They used

798
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 3: proxy funding, straight up state funding to do stuff like

799
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 3: provide clean passports, sometimes under different identities, which is a

800
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 3: real supermove, to provide funding to secure bail if there

801
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,240
Speaker 3: was a court a period, and as soon as bail

802
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: was made, KSA immediately transported these folks outside of that

803
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 3: destination or host country, like private plane, you know what

804
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 3: I mean, off to the races. These folks don't wait

805
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 3: in line at the security checkpoint. It also did not

806
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 3: nine to eleven whatever, keep it.

807
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 5: Oh that's right, No, I remember that there being some

808
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 5: hay made about that. Yeah, about like certain diplomats receiving

809
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 5: much more preferential treatments, you know, in a situation that

810
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 5: was absolute pandemonium.

811
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: Specifically from saudio behavior. You even some family members of

812
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 2: the guard that they said masterminded the whole thing. It's cool,

813
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: it's fine, everything's fine.

814
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 3: Let's see a little podcast.

815
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 2: Hey, black bagged shadow diplomats, guys, this is really fun

816
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: honorary consoles. Well, please everyone, if you have time, please please,

817
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 2: please please please head over to pro Publica and read

818
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: a December twenty second, twenty twenty two article titled shadow

819
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: diplomats have posed a threat For decades, the world's governments

820
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 2: looked the other way. This is a fantastic article written

821
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: by Debbie sen Zipper and several others from various reporting outlets,

822
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: and this thing goes deep into people, including a shadow

823
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 2: diplomat slash honorary console to the United States from guess where,

824
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: guess where? Name of country?

825
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 4: What did we say earlier?

826
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 2: Botswana? Yes, just this is the guy working in the

827
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 2: United States on the behalf of Botswana. And it, like

828
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: the top of the article details how this guy was

829
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 2: doing some weird stuff, paying off officials to basically as

830
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 2: a bribe essentially that then would change where some pension

831
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 2: funds went. And then he made like one point two

832
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 2: to one point three million dollars off the top of

833
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 2: the deal. And nobody officially vetted this guy, at.

834
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 3: Least I I had to step out for a second.

835
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 3: This is our honorary console.

836
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, mister Robert Shoemake, Yeah, yeah, A very very

837
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 2: interesting person and with Bob. Yeah, I don't know how

838
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 2: he's doing right now. He could not be reached for

839
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: comment back in December twenty twenty two. But I do

840
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: know just in this article, it discusses how there are

841
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: an estimated one one hundred honorary consoles from different countries

842
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 2: in the United States operating within the US right now,

843
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: or at least at that time. There's more or less

844
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 2: who knows at this very moment in twenty twenty five.

845
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 2: But this title operates much in the same way that

846
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 2: all the other ones do. Where you've got a diplomatic

847
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: pouch that can't be searched, you can't go to their

848
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 2: office and search it the way you would some other place.

849
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 2: If it is officially, you know, labeled as such and

850
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: with the correct stuff, you officially can't wire tap them.

851
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. And it's international law to protect

852
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 2: these folks. But the biggest question that's put forth in

853
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 2: this article shadow Diplomat's opposed a threat for decades is

854
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: how are these individuals vetted? And then how is the

855
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,240
Speaker 2: State Department of the United States specifically aware of these

856
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: honorary consoles in operation? And they found that it wasn't

857
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 2: it I think it was twenty seventeen was the last

858
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 2: time they had even checked on official records of who

859
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: is operating in the US as honorary consoles from other countries,

860
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: Like they took a five year span in between just

861
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: checking to see who's operating.

862
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 3: And it's the DOS response to this, if I recall,

863
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 3: because I remember this being a huge hullabloo, thank you

864
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 3: for your service pro publica. I remember the state departments

865
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,479
Speaker 3: idea or their argument in defense of this was to say, hey,

866
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 3: this is a very large, complicated situation or miliu, and

867
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 3: they essentially said they don't They implied they don't have

868
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 3: the funding to do a detailed review of everybody. So

869
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 3: they're saying, despite the fact that this is a very

870
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 3: powerful position background checks. I don't know, man, just tell

871
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 3: us if the ViBe's good.

872
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well, mister Shoemate, the guy that we just

873
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: talked about had been in big trouble in two thousand

874
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 2: and two. He lost his real estate license for all

875
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 2: kinds of under the table junk he was doing. He

876
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 2: got in big, big trouble a couple years after that,

877
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 2: and then he just happens to be operating in the

878
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 2: US it's this honorary diplomat.

879
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 3: We love tourism.

880
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 4: Man.

881
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: Oh, there's a thing called the Office of Foreign Missions,

882
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 2: which is something I didn't know about. They put out

883
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 2: statements at the time of this investigation they're talking about.

884
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 2: This is what they say. The Department has zero tolerance

885
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: for evidence of inappropriate activity by any member of a

886
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 2: foreign mission, including honorary consoles.

887
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 3: I love that very pursuit of happiness. I remember reading that.

888
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 3: So the office has zero tolerance not for criminal acts,

889
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 3: but for evidence of cridminal acts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

890
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 3: remember that meeting. Yeah, man, this is this is crazy.

891
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 3: I think maybe we do a third episode in this

892
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 3: series just on shadow diplomacy. What say you?

893
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, absolutely, this.

894
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 2: Stuff is nuts and there's so many examples they give.

895
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 3: In guys, and they're from the past. So maybe in

896
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 3: our in our in our mission, on our continuing on

897
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,280
Speaker 3: our continuing knowledge, heist, maybe our mission is to find

898
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 3: active shadow diplomats, which is legal to do. It's legal

899
00:55:57,719 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 3: to ask that.

900
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 2: There's a dude for from the Czech Republic who was

901
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 2: an honorary console in two thousand and five, he tried

902
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: to avoid paying taxes in Michigan, and Ohio on a

903
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: sixteen thousand square foot home near Detroit.

904
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like the de thousand at that point

905
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 3: just started church man, you know the game. We will

906
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 3: make it so easy in this country.

907
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: Well, he said the property was owned by the Czech government.

908
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,919
Speaker 2: It was transferred to the Czech government for the United

909
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 2: States government cannot enforce any taxes high right.

910
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 3: I think we've all been in that situation. You tried

911
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 3: to do a couple moves as April approaches, Which government did?

912
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 3: Which government? Did you seed your house? Do you met?

913
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 2: Oh Botswana?

914
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 3: Of course, of course, yes. This episode is brought to

915
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 3: you by Botswada. Don't have the time to get into

916
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 3: some other cases of things like diplomatic immunity, particularly a

917
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 3: case that is always he's really haunted us, which we

918
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 3: talked about briefly in our Uncaught serial Killers episode is

919
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 3: Essay Sagawa. This guy is a the Quick Skinny. This

920
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 3: is not appropriate for all audience members. The Quick Skinny

921
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 3: is in nineteen eighty one in Paris, France. This guy,

922
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 3: who is not a diplomat but the son of a

923
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 3: very powerful industrial family in Japan. He murders a classmate

924
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 3: and he proceeds to mutilate and defile the cadaver, and

925
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 3: he consumes pieces of the corpse, consumes pieces of the flesh.

926
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 3: He is dead to rights. He definitely did it, but

927
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 3: his wealthy family pushes the needle, so instead of going

928
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 3: to French prison, he goes to a psychiatric institution. A

929
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 3: few years later, the family in Japan push again. He

930
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 3: has deported back to Japan. He's declared saying all the

931
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 3: paperwork regarding his case is lost, and he lives the

932
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 3: rest of his life is a minor celebt, completely free.

933
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 3: He didn't pass away until twenty twenty two, so he

934
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 3: was alive while we were making this show. And he's

935
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 3: a very evil person who got something like immunity. Because

936
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 3: I feel like what this teaches us the most troubling

937
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 3: thing is in the world of international intrigue, we are

938
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 3: again and again like the lesson is hammered home. The

939
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 3: crime itself is not as important as who you are

940
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 3: when that crime is committed.

941
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and the protections that are officially in place

942
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 2: to save you and to help you get stuff in

943
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 2: and out of a country through a pouch that nobody

944
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,959
Speaker 2: can look at, Like, think about what that means. Back

945
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, US lawmakers wanted to change this

946
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: and wanted to review how diplomats move in between countries

947
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: with these pouches of anything. Could be arms, could be explosives,

948
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 2: could be dreat drugs. Think about moving explosives quietly, secretly,

949
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 2: without molestation by anybody on let's say an airplane.

950
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:11,479
Speaker 3: Sure, think think about a shipping container in the right port.

951
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 2: It's just it is horrifying. In the nineteen eighties, guess

952
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 2: what happened. Guess what happened with the whole diplomatic immunity review. Nothing, what,

953
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 2: no way, absolutely nothing had died trying to get past.

954
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 3: The thing is a good grift system, and this can

955
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 3: be weaponized as a good grift system. It's like a carousel.

956
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 3: Nobody wants to stop the ride because everybody's got their

957
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 3: favorite horse.

958
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody's using it, man.

959
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 3: And that's why these conversations keep going in circles. Let's

960
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 3: do our part three on this. We do have a

961
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 3: prediction for you, fellow conspiracy realist. The existing global power

962
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 3: structure is increasingly imperiled. Right. We're in what people call

963
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 3: a fluid situation, especially over the your future. So this

964
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 3: means we have a high likelihood have seen more arguments

965
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 3: about diplomatic immunity, more accusations of it being misused. Some

966
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 3: claims of diplomatic immunity are going to be in good faith.

967
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 3: They're meant to protect diplomats from actions and possibly hostile countries.

968
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 3: But others, others may claim this immunity for less noble

969
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 3: purposes to commit crime, to exercise espionage or worse. You know,

970
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 3: reminds me of what our Russian friends always used to say.

971
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 3: You'll love this, knull. Nobody makes bulletproof vest for a

972
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: third story window.

973
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 4: It's true, it's true.

974
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: They do make those things they like, auto inflate when

975
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 2: you fall over.

976
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, bouncy castles, like we talked about. We've got

977
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 3: a new business. We're very excited to share with you folks.

978
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 3: We also, you know, the inflatable slides on planes, but

979
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 3: you just can't put those on every window.

980
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 2: Apparently, it's true, we could have, We could have all

981
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: officials wear those suits that auto inflate when you fall

982
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 2: then also sound yeah exactly.

983
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 3: They were also a giant bubble.

984
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 4: Immediately they look ridiculous too, but yeah, ridiculously sick.

985
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 3: True, true, Maybe yeah, maybe we should normalize it. But

986
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 3: then what does that lead us to. We'll tell you

987
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 3: what this all inevitably proves. Inarguably, some people have a

988
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 3: different set of rules, and this is the stuff they

989
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 3: don't want you to know. We'd love to hear your thoughts.

990
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 3: We can't wait for you to join us. In some

991
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 3: upcoming episodes, we're going to talk about how you can

992
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 3: break physics. We'll have a little bit of a stuff

993
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know book club with our

994
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 3: favorite sabotage manual from evenings of yesteryear. And in the meantime,

995
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 3: give us some suggestions for things we should cover in

996
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 3: episodes on the wave. Find us online, give us a

997
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 3: telephone call, or reach at our good old fashioned email address.

998
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 4: It's right.

999
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,439
Speaker 5: You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where

1000
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 5: we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where

1001
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 5: it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter, and on YouTube

1002
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 5: with video content color for your perusing enjoyment. On Instagram

1003
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 5: and TikTok, we are Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1004
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. It is one eight three

1005
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself a

1006
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: cool nickname and within the message, let us know if

1007
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air

1008
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 2: and then tell us what you think was that the

1009
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 2: last pope is the next one the last pope? Does

1010
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 2: the pope matter? What about diplomatic community and all the

1011
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 2: stuff we talked about today. Just call us and say

1012
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: anything you want to in three minutes. If you've got

1013
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 2: a ton to save, you got links, if you've got

1014
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 2: stuff to attach one instead, send us a good old

1015
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

1016
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1017
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the voice

1018
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 3: rights back. Want to give a special shout out to

1019
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 3: a couple of listeners here, Skeptical dark Horse hit us

1020
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 3: with the best pun for the upcoming Boeing F forty seven,

1021
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:16,680
Speaker 3: the F bomb federal bombastic overlord, maneuverable blunderber ten ten

1022
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 3: Skeptical dark Horse no notes, but we'd love to get

1023
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 3: some notes from you. We'd love to share them with you.

1024
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 3: We're an ongoing discourse with many of our friends neighbors

1025
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 3: all the world round. Who would you like to be

1026
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 3: a shadow diplomat for? Buy not us conspiracy at iHeartRadio

1027
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 3: dot com.

1028
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1029
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart rate, visit

1030
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

1031
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 2: your favorite shows.