WEBVTT - #250 Jason Flom with Rodney Lincoln 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.320 In the early seventies, Rodney Lincoln served two years in 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:08.840 prison for accidentally killing a man in a bar fight. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.200 About ten years later, he briefly dated a woman named 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.000 Joanne Tate, and about a year after that, in the 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.240 early morning hours of April twenty seventh, nineteen eighty two, 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.799 Joanne was brutally stabbed to death and sexually assaulted in 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.239 her Saint Louis apartment. Her two young daughters, seven year 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:29.360 old Melissa and four year old Renee, miraculously survived the attack. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.519 Joanne's brother thought her ex boyfriend, Rodney Lincoln, resembled a 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.839 composite sketch. Investigators presented the older girl, Melissa, with a 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.800 very suggestive lineup, and it had the desired effect. Without 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:47.199 DNA testing available, this misidentification, along with Rodney's past conviction, 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:51.639 sealed his fate. The first trial ended in a hung jury. However, 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:55.040 in the second, the state leaned heavily on dubious hair 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:59.800 microscopy evidence and Melissa's testimony. Unfortunately for Rodney, pointing out 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:04.039 the inconsistencies between Melissa's initial statements and trial testimony could 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.800 not overcome the power of a then nine year old 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:11.759 girl describing an unspeakable attack. Twenty seven years later, DNA 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:16.800 testing excluded Rodney, but Melissa's testimony still looked Finally, when 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.640 a serial killer named Tommy Lynn Sells had confessed the 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:24.000 scores of eerly similar crimes, Melissa immediately recognized him for 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.600 photos as the actual attacker. However, her recantation was still 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:33.440 somehow not enough to immediately set Rodney free. This is 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:50.120 wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction Today's episode. I mean, 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.880 it's truly mind blowing, even for me and I've been 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.720 doing this for a long time. This is a case 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.360 of the wrongful conviction of a man named Rodney Lincoln 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.320 who's here with us today. And first of all, before 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.920 I go any further, Rodney, you know what can I say? 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.480 I'm sorry you're here under these circumstances. You never should 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:12.080 have to go through any of this in the first place. 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.920 But I'm obviously very happy that you're here to share 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:16.720 your story. So thanks for being here today. 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:19.160 Thank you for having me dation. 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.040 We also have with us today one of the most 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.480 tenacious and persistent fighters for Rodney's innocence, and that's Rodney's 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.079 own daughter, Kay Lincoln. Kay, thanks so much for being 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.160 with us today, no problem. And Rodney what a guy. 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.680 I mean, this is a man who served over thirty 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:39.600 six years in prison and his case involves junk science, 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:45.000 a mistaken eyewitness identification. There's a serial killer whose name 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.800 you'll probably recognize because he was responsible for other wrongful 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:52.720 convictions we've covered on this series. I mean, Rodney's case 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.000 is a case that when you're at one of these 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.840 innocent conferences and you start talking about this or that, 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:59.960 people go, yeah, but have you heard about Rodney Lincoln? 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:05.160 It's like whispered because this case is so bad, shit crazy. So, 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.399 without further ado, let's go back in time. So where 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:10.240 did you grow up? 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:15.040 I grew up in South Saint Louis, Missouri. I was 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:20.040 a happy kid. Were poured, but everybody was poured too, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.400 so we didn't know that we was boy. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.080 Right. There was no social media back then, so you 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.560 had a happy childhood. And then it goes up to 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.799 nineteen seventy three. You're still a very young man. Right. 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.800 We got into a drunken bar fight and this is 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:36.640 not the case we're here to talk about. This was 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.080 something that actually happened, right, But do you want to 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:40.560 talk about that just for a second. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:44.320 In nineteen tell me three, I was convicted of a 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.640 second degree murtor. I was in a boy drinking one 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.400 day and bring the mind from across the street came 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.600 over and told me, Hey, some guy just told something 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.120 out you were trucking. Well, I had enough drink to 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.360 mean that I would ready to go after him. Unfortunate 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:08.360 way I did. We got into confiscation and he threw 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:12.280 a rock at me, and miss I threw a rack 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.440 at him, and didn't I wound you up? Convicted a 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:18.039 second degree MODI. 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.719 Well, you served your time in prison for that crime, 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.200 but little would you know at the time that was 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.320 just the tip of the iceberg for your experience with 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.359 the criminal legal system in this country. Right, and in 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.640 this case you were actually guilty. And did you plead 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:35.719 guilty in that case? 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.960 Yes, I did. I compressed to the crime. I was 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:41.240 rightfully convicted. 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.800 All right. So now it's the late seventies getting into 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.600 the early eighties and you're out of prison. What were 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.120 you doing for work? And how did you first meet 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.120 joe Anne Tate? Mighter says you dated at some point, right. 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:58.000 Yes, we dated a few times. I was Kendy boy 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:04.680 at a place called the Cottage Inn, and this couple 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.720 comes in the boar and I find out that this 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:13.400 is Joanne Tape and her brother. While there, I got 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:18.680 talking to Joanne. When they got ready to leave, Joanne 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.920 gave me a piece of paper with her phone number 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.360 on it asked me to call it that night when 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.839 I got off work. I called, she answered, And that 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.120 was the first time we met outside of the boy 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:36.280 And when I say we dated, it wasn't like a 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:42.000 mad love affair. Our relationship was purely sexual, okay. 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.320 And then how long after that does this horrible crime happen? 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.720 It was just about a year. I think, maybe a 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.919 little over it because I had been dating my girlfriend 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.440 at the time for about eight months. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.520 Now we fast forward to the early morning hours of 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.560 April two, twenty seventh, ninety eighty two. This is going 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.039 to be hard to hear. I'm just going to warn 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.120 the audience. This crime is so grotesque that it's hard 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.039 for me to even say it or read it, because 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.160 this was the mark of a serial killer who was 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.800 reaching the depths of his depraved crime spree. So in 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.440 the early morning hours of April twenty seventh, ninety eighty two, 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.279 joe Ane Tate was thirty five years old. She was 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.640 stabbed in the chest and sexually assaulted with a broomstick 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.760 in her apartment at Saint Louis, Missouri. Now her seven 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.800 year old daughter, Melissa, also was stabbed several times at 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.240 her four year old daughter, Renee, had her throat cut. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.479 The girls survived the attack, but their mother tragically did not. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.719 Her body was discovered at ten am when her brother 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.520 and boyfriend at the apartment and found her lying face 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.640 down in a pool of blood, and her daughter's lying 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.240 there as well, covered in blood with multiple stab wounds. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.960 The uptack neighbor had heard a loud noise from missus 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.960 Tate's apartment at approximately four am that morning, and then 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.960 when police arrived at the scene, they noticed the two 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.200 girls were still alive, but they saw that there were 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.200 and again brace yourself, bristles of a broom were protruding 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.360 from the anus of missiou Ane Tate now Renee. The 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.560 four year old never offered any identification of the attacker, 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.000 but Melissa, the seven year old, gave the police various 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.800 different statements. Now for a while, she stuck to a 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.040 story that a man named Bill was the attacker, right, 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.920 not Rodnie Bill, and she gave the police some details 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.440 about his car at his house. I believe they also 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.080 made a sketch. But do you know how your name 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:45.640 first came up to the police. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.360 The way my name came up is they found my 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:56.120 name in Joanne's diary and Buddy said that the guy, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.080 thank you of that, that's the guy just gets looks. 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.520 And police eventually showed a picture of you, a photo 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.840 of you, Roddy to the young girl Melissa, and they 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.640 had the fact that you had a murder conviction on 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.960 your record from the drunken fight ten years earlier, completely 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.360 unrelated by the way, which was a very different situation obviously. 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.000 But after the show Melissa your photo, this poor little 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.760 girl was shown a four person live lineup with you 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.280 in it. And here's the thing. You had short hair 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.119 and a slight build, but the other three men didn't 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:29.840 resemble you at all. 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:35.040 Right, one was about six inches taller than I was, 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:42.400 and all of them had stremeway long hair and were 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.880 built a lot bigger than I was. I've always been 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:51.320 a small person. I was smaller than that lineup. Not 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.160 to mention that they were all younger than I. 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.840 Was Yeah, So this is suggestive. Isn't even a strong 0:08:58.000 --> 0:08:59.920 enough word. And this is why I believe that these 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.120 things should all be recorded. I wouldness identification, not just 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.359 interrogations of suspects, because I mean, how much more traumatized 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.840 could a child be. She's witnessed her own mother's brutal 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.720 murder and also was stabbed several times by this monster. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:20.360 And now imagine her, this little child, with these police officers, 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.720 you know, steering her. Maybe they were doing it consciously, subconsciously, 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.160 I don't know, towards the one guy in the lineup 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.480 who looked anything like what she had said she remembered 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.319 from this attack. Also, during the investigation, there was hair 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.400 found and Puba CA hair that apparently did not belong 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.920 to Joe an tape. So the state brings in a 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:45.319 few quote unquote experts and we'll get to that insanity 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.480 in just a bit. Okay, So you're arrested, Rodney on 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.840 May twenty third of nineteen eighty two, So this is 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.880 just a few weeks after the attack. You're arrested and 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.640 charged based on this let me say this sort of 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:05.559 just the identification procedure, this junk science of the hair 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.160 and the basic idea that they had tunnel vision because 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.080 they said, well, here's a guy who had been convicted 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.240 of murder, nothing like this one, nothing in common at all, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.000 and who dated her just briefly, so it must be him. 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.880 So you're in jail awaiting trial from May nineteen eighty 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:23.560 two until August of nineteen eighty three. 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.760 I would be in jail for five hundred and thirty 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.080 five days. 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.120 Five hundred and thirty five days, that's about a year 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.080 and a half awaiting the trial. But now you had kids. 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:35.600 You had with four kids by this. 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:40.360 Point, ah, yes, two downs and two daughters. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.040 And your daughter Cave's here with us now. So kay, 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.959 what was all of this like for you? What do 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.280 you remember feeling at that time? 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:56.040 Confusion, why was this happening? Just was so lost as 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.480 to why how could this even be a thought that 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.440 he could do something like this. And I remember the 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.480 first time we went to visit him when he was 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.640 being held at the city jail, shortly after he was arrested, 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.560 and he just looked us in the eyes and said, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:13.680 I need you to know I didn't do this. I 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.120 had nothing to do with this, And that was really 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.600 all I needed to hear and I really believed that. Okay, 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.760 so he didn't do it. These guys are trying to 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.200 just do their job. They'll figure out that it wasn't 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.400 him and he'll come home. And of course that didn't happen. 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.000 And it was a year and a half before he 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.840 went to trial, and we thought, well, okay, he's going 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.480 to trial, they'll figure it out, the judge'll sent him home. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.200 And in the first trial that almost panned out. And 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.199 who represented you, Rodney. 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.960 I'll eject the ganet by an attorney by the name 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:48.680 of Robert Hampey. 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:51.240 And how long did the trial take? 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.760 The big trout took fifteen days. 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.240 And it ended in the seven to five split verdict 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.040 which hung the jerry. Of course, so now back to 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.280 jail to await another trial, which took place in October 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.120 of nineteen eighty three. And was it the same attorney 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:10.559 that represented you in the second trial? 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:11.360 Yes. 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:16.280 So at the second trial, the state presented two criminalists 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.000 who were employed by the City of Saint Louis Police department, 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.480 Joseph Crowe and Harold Mesler, who testified about hair that 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:24.400 was found at the crime scene. Now, Crow said that 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.000 he examined a blanket found in the bedroom, found hair, 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.679 and found one sample of a pubic hair that did 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:35.480 not belong to the victim. On cross examination, mister Crowe 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.800 stated that the information that can be gathered from a 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:39.800 hair is limited and that he didn't think it was 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.920 possible to determine the age of the person. That one 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.480 could not identify the ethnicity of a hair from a 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.000 Caucasian quote with a great deal of certainty. This doesn't 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.400 sound like very strong testimony. So the hair evidence was 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.200 then passed to Mesler, the other guy, to examine, and 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.240 he testified that compared to a sample from you dy, 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.000 along with samp from thirty seven other Caucasians, the thirty 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.840 seven others were not comparable to the hair found at 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.360 the scene. Okay, so I'm no scientists, but so these 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:13.600 thirty seven other samples, thirty seven other people, that's what 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:20.200 passed for the exclusion of anyone else on the planet. Right, 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.960 It's unbelievable that this is allowed to go on in 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.439 a court of law. But okay, Later, the same guy, 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.080 Mesa testify that when examining the thirty seven other individuals's 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:35.120 hair along with Tate's hair and Lincoln's hair, only yours 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.200 Rodney matched, and that in two hundred cases that he 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:42.079 had handled, he had never found one where hair recovered 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.960 from the crime scene matched to more than one person. Again, 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.480 what does that even mean or prove? I mean, if 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.600 the process is getting thirty seven samples, who cares? If 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.920 you did the same shoddy testing two hundred times or 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.679 two million times, does that disproved that your suspect's hair 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.840 is just similar to the actual killers hair? How do 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.800 you know that from this method? Well, the answer is 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:12.480 you don't. Hair microscopy possesses little to no forensic value. 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.200 You know. I'm reading this fantastic book now, and fact 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.840 I just finished it last night by m. Chris Fabricant, 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.960 and it's called Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System. 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.480 One of the things it highlights is how the National 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.080 Category of Sciences did a study not that long ago 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.240 where the FBI was forced to admit that they had 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:36.400 been lying in case after case for decades about this evidence. 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.520 A sampling of the first five hundred transcripts revealed that 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:44.440 special agents had given bogus testimony in about ninety six 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.320 percent of the cases, thirty five had been death penalty convictions, 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.520 and all but two of those had been marred by 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.880 false testimony. Now nine men had already been put to death, 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.120 and five more had died of other causes while waiting 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.920 to be executed on death row due to this junk science. 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:08.880 It's nothing short of a forensic testimony disaster. So you've 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.400 got this junk science presented at your trial, Rodney, but 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:16.360 it's really there to support Melissa, whose testimony, despite the inconsistencies, 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.960 was still very powerful. We're talking about what was she 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.320 by the time of the trial, just nine years old? 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:24.440 I believe Jella, yes. 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.680 So she described with the little nine year old Melissa 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.400 describe waking up to screams and seeing her mother laying 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.600 down on her stomach in a little blood. Near the 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.640 door to her bedroom. She said, she saw a naked 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:36.680 man and again I'm sorry you have to hear this, 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.720 who came over to her bed, picked her up and 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:40.880 carried her up to tape the bedroom, put her on 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.160 the bed, and removed her clothes. She said he tried 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.800 to get her to quote do a few things. He 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.200 stand her repeatedly, and she attempted to play dead until 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.400 he stopped again. This is her testimony, she said. The 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.920 attacker then washed off the knife and she hid under 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.880 her sister's bed, and she then heard the attacker hurt 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.760 her sister. Oh man, this is just kidding worse and worse. 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.120 When she was in her mother's bedroom, she said she 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.240 got a good look at the killer. She said she 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:07.000 did not remember his name at the time, but she 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.720 remembered seeing him before that night, a long time ago, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.040 when she Renee and her mom spent the night at 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.600 your house, Rodney. And she said the house was across 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.600 from a park with a playground, and that your mother 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.480 and some pets lived there, and she identified the playground 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.600 at the park from photos. She then identified a photo 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.520 of Hugh Rodney as her attacker, as attacker of the 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:33.000 whole family, and she identified you in the courtroom as well. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.360 She then explained that she initially said because you remember 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.040 she had said Bill, did it right? Because she was 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.720 sick and hurt and everyone kept bothering her for a name, 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.400 she just said Bill. She stated several times that Bill 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.080 and Lincoln were the same person, and at the time 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.080 of the attacks, she did not really know your name. 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:57.360 And I sit there in a second trial, I'm beginning 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:02.240 to see I am, and some bisure your trouble. 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.879 Let's talk about your defense. Your attorney, Ridy Robert Hampy, 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:07.880 who had been with you now for quite some time 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.359 through the first trial and the second trial. Yes, he 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.199 had an almost impossible task because how do you cross 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:18.920 examine a traumatized, terrified little girl who's lost her mother 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.280 and almost lost her own life as well as seeing 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.320 her sister savagely attacked. I don't know how you go 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.720 about doing that, but how did he attempt to because 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.040 she was really the whole case, right. 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.160 Right, I think as I look back on it now, 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:41.400 his whole line of attack. He hought mostly on the 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:47.280 inconsistencies of his statements, trying to get it to repeat 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.879 the different things that she had said in the past 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:56.400 that was not exactly it's supposed to be. Now, as 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.359 I look back on it now, I almost feel like 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:00.760 he founding her. 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.080 Well, that could backfire as well, because I mean, he 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:06.800 had to walk a tightrope, and it sounds like he 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.720 didn't do it very well. But he literally was in 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.000 between a rock and a hard place, because the jury's 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.120 not going to want to see him being anything other 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:18.399 than gentle so to speak to this child. But he 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.320 had your life on the line, and the only way 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.040 to get you out of this at this point was 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.880 to undermine her testimony, which, as of course, turns out 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.439 all those years later to have been false. Okay, So 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.679 then we get to the closing argument, and in the 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:35.320 state's closing argument, they didn't really focus on the hair sample. Rather, 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.959 they kept harping on little Melissa's testimony, noting that Renee 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.399 was too young to testify and stating that Melissa quote 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.240 bore the responsibility for the three of them to tell 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:51.000 you what happened that night. Whoa. And then they recapped 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.760 Melissa's identification of you, Rodney, And I'd say at that 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.719 point your fate was probably more or less sealed. I mean, 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.119 these are people on the jury, these are normal people, well, 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.280 who are listening to this testimony, this child, and who 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.760 want to get justice for her and her mom and 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.520 her sister and the family. And so I think that 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.040 that's going to cloud their judgment. And while they may 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.520 have had real doubts as to your guilt, at this point, 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.080 the human instinct is depended on somebody, right. So how 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.359 long did they deliberate for the second trial? 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:27.440 They was out I think about two a half hours well. 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.080 It's not very long at all. And when they came 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.280 back in, did you still hold out hope or did you, 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.159 as you said before, you knew you were in serious 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.479 trouble and you basically resigned yourself to the idea that 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.760 these people were going to come back and render a 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:41.480 Guilly verdict. 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.640 No, no, I fell felt that they're going to get 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:50.280 it right. They come back and say, look, we can't 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:51.480 find enough everything. 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.320 Convict this guy, and you would go home and try 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.800 to piece your life back together again. But unfortunately that 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.040 was not to be so Rodney. When the jury came 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.920 back in, what was that moment like when they convicted 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.560 you and sentenced you to life in prison plus fifteen 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.560 years for a crime you had nothing to do with. 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.679 I find it very hard to describe that feeling. It 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:21.880 was just like everything inside of me was yanked out. 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:40.359 Nothing there but the shell. At that time. I was 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:46.280 taken to the Madrid State Penitentiary in Jefferson City. When 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:52.000 I arrived, I was taken to a large room with 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:57.320 a bunch of other people. We were stripped down, got 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:03.840 into a shire where we were strayed like cattle. I 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:09.920 was designed to two house at the Jafferton City Penitentiary. 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:15.879 Once I got there, it was a living nightmare. I 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:23.119 was always looking over my shoulder do anything or going anywhere, 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:29.760 and remained that way for just about for ten years. 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:36.280 And meanwhile, you're enduring these archaic and barbaric prison conditions 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:41.880 while being handed one devastating disappointment after another from the courts. 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.040 And by that I mean that in nineteen eighty six, 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.479 your wrongful conviction was upheld on direct appeal, and then 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.480 the motion for post conviction relief was denied two years 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.240 later in nineteen eighty eight. But a crucial breakthrough came 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:58.680 in two thousand and three when the Saint Louis, Missouri 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.680 Circuit Attorney's Office or a Justice Project to review old 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.800 convictions and chose your case to review out of fourteen 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.920 hundred old cases. And here I'd like to turn back 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.160 to your daughter, k because she plays an absolutely crucial 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.560 role in what happens next. It's okay, can you take 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:15.160 us through this. 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.760 It was June fifth, two thousand and three. I got 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.159 off work that evening and I stopped by my mom's 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.080 house and I walked in the door and she was 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.359 just finishing watching the news, and she said, your dad 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.680 maybe out in a couple weeks. And I said, you're crazy, 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.280 what are you talking about. She said, they just showed 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:36.560 his picture on the news and they said they're reviewing 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.320 his case. So the next morning I called down to 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.359 the Circuit Attorney's office and I asked them is this true? 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.440 Is he one of the cases? And they verified that yes, 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:48.680 this was one of the cases that they were looking at. 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.280 And so I started a communication with the man who 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.840 was in charge of doing this review, and through the 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.240 course of our communication, they said, well, we can't find 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:00.560 the transcripts. We can't get a hold of the trains. 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:04.080 So I tracked them down. I went to the Court 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.119 of Appeals and I purchased the transcripts from them. It 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:10.320 was like twelve hundred dollars to get these transcripts. I 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:13.680 made copies and took them down to the Circuit Attorney's 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.480 office and said here you go, get busy, you know. 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:22.480 So as they're doing their review, I'm rereading these transcripts myself, 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:25.280 and I'm just getting blown away by the things that 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:30.240 I'm seeing. Because my aunt had an original copy of 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:33.520 Melissa's deposition from back in nineteen eighty two, so I'm 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:38.120