1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: In the early seventies, Rodney Lincoln served two years in 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: prison for accidentally killing a man in a bar fight. 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: About ten years later, he briefly dated a woman named 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Joanne Tate, and about a year after that, in the 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: early morning hours of April twenty seventh, nineteen eighty two, 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: Joanne was brutally stabbed to death and sexually assaulted in 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: her Saint Louis apartment. Her two young daughters, seven year 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: old Melissa and four year old Renee, miraculously survived the attack. 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: Joanne's brother thought her ex boyfriend, Rodney Lincoln, resembled a 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: composite sketch. Investigators presented the older girl, Melissa, with a 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: very suggestive lineup, and it had the desired effect. Without 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: DNA testing available, this misidentification, along with Rodney's past conviction, 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,639 Speaker 1: sealed his fate. The first trial ended in a hung jury. However, 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: in the second, the state leaned heavily on dubious hair 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: microscopy evidence and Melissa's testimony. Unfortunately for Rodney, pointing out 16 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: the inconsistencies between Melissa's initial statements and trial testimony could 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: not overcome the power of a then nine year old 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: girl describing an unspeakable attack. Twenty seven years later, DNA 19 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: testing excluded Rodney, but Melissa's testimony still looked Finally, when 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: a serial killer named Tommy Lynn Sells had confessed the 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: scores of eerly similar crimes, Melissa immediately recognized him for 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: photos as the actual attacker. However, her recantation was still 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: somehow not enough to immediately set Rodney free. This is 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction Today's episode. I mean, 25 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: it's truly mind blowing, even for me and I've been 26 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: doing this for a long time. This is a case 27 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: of the wrongful conviction of a man named Rodney Lincoln 28 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: who's here with us today. And first of all, before 29 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: I go any further, Rodney, you know what can I say? 30 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're here under these circumstances. You never should 31 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: have to go through any of this in the first place. 32 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: But I'm obviously very happy that you're here to share 33 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: your story. So thanks for being here today. 34 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me dation. 35 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: We also have with us today one of the most 36 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: tenacious and persistent fighters for Rodney's innocence, and that's Rodney's 37 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: own daughter, Kay Lincoln. Kay, thanks so much for being 38 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: with us today, no problem. And Rodney what a guy. 39 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a man who served over thirty 40 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: six years in prison and his case involves junk science, 41 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: a mistaken eyewitness identification. There's a serial killer whose name 42 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: you'll probably recognize because he was responsible for other wrongful 43 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: convictions we've covered on this series. I mean, Rodney's case 44 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: is a case that when you're at one of these 45 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: innocent conferences and you start talking about this or that, 46 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: people go, yeah, but have you heard about Rodney Lincoln? 47 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: It's like whispered because this case is so bad, shit crazy. So, 48 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 1: without further ado, let's go back in time. So where 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: did you grow up? 50 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: I grew up in South Saint Louis, Missouri. I was 51 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: a happy kid. Were poured, but everybody was poured too, 52 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: so we didn't know that we was boy. 53 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: Right. There was no social media back then, so you 54 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: had a happy childhood. And then it goes up to 55 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. You're still a very young man. Right. 56 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: We got into a drunken bar fight and this is 57 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: not the case we're here to talk about. This was 58 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: something that actually happened, right, But do you want to 59 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: talk about that just for a second. 60 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: In nineteen tell me three, I was convicted of a 61 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: second degree murtor. I was in a boy drinking one 62 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: day and bring the mind from across the street came 63 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: over and told me, Hey, some guy just told something 64 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: out you were trucking. Well, I had enough drink to 65 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: mean that I would ready to go after him. Unfortunate 66 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: way I did. We got into confiscation and he threw 67 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: a rock at me, and miss I threw a rack 68 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: at him, and didn't I wound you up? Convicted a 69 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 2: second degree MODI. 70 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: Well, you served your time in prison for that crime, 71 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: but little would you know at the time that was 72 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: just the tip of the iceberg for your experience with 73 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: the criminal legal system in this country. Right, and in 74 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: this case you were actually guilty. And did you plead 75 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: guilty in that case? 76 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I did. I compressed to the crime. I was 77 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: rightfully convicted. 78 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: All right. So now it's the late seventies getting into 79 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: the early eighties and you're out of prison. What were 80 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: you doing for work? And how did you first meet 81 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: joe Anne Tate? Mighter says you dated at some point, right. 82 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: Yes, we dated a few times. I was Kendy boy 83 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: at a place called the Cottage Inn, and this couple 84 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 2: comes in the boar and I find out that this 85 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: is Joanne Tape and her brother. While there, I got 86 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: talking to Joanne. When they got ready to leave, Joanne 87 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: gave me a piece of paper with her phone number 88 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: on it asked me to call it that night when 89 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: I got off work. I called, she answered, And that 90 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: was the first time we met outside of the boy 91 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: And when I say we dated, it wasn't like a 92 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: mad love affair. Our relationship was purely sexual, okay. 93 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: And then how long after that does this horrible crime happen? 94 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: It was just about a year. I think, maybe a 95 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: little over it because I had been dating my girlfriend 96 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: at the time for about eight months. 97 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: Now we fast forward to the early morning hours of 98 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: April two, twenty seventh, ninety eighty two. This is going 99 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: to be hard to hear. I'm just going to warn 100 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: the audience. This crime is so grotesque that it's hard 101 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: for me to even say it or read it, because 102 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: this was the mark of a serial killer who was 103 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: reaching the depths of his depraved crime spree. So in 104 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: the early morning hours of April twenty seventh, ninety eighty two, 105 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: joe Ane Tate was thirty five years old. She was 106 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: stabbed in the chest and sexually assaulted with a broomstick 107 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: in her apartment at Saint Louis, Missouri. Now her seven 108 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: year old daughter, Melissa, also was stabbed several times at 109 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: her four year old daughter, Renee, had her throat cut. 110 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: The girls survived the attack, but their mother tragically did not. 111 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: Her body was discovered at ten am when her brother 112 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: and boyfriend at the apartment and found her lying face 113 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: down in a pool of blood, and her daughter's lying 114 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: there as well, covered in blood with multiple stab wounds. 115 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: The uptack neighbor had heard a loud noise from missus 116 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: Tate's apartment at approximately four am that morning, and then 117 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: when police arrived at the scene, they noticed the two 118 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: girls were still alive, but they saw that there were 119 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: and again brace yourself, bristles of a broom were protruding 120 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: from the anus of missiou Ane Tate now Renee. The 121 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: four year old never offered any identification of the attacker, 122 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: but Melissa, the seven year old, gave the police various 123 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: different statements. Now for a while, she stuck to a 124 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: story that a man named Bill was the attacker, right, 125 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: not Rodnie Bill, and she gave the police some details 126 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: about his car at his house. I believe they also 127 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: made a sketch. But do you know how your name 128 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: first came up to the police. 129 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: The way my name came up is they found my 130 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 2: name in Joanne's diary and Buddy said that the guy, 131 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: thank you of that, that's the guy just gets looks. 132 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: And police eventually showed a picture of you, a photo 133 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: of you, Roddy to the young girl Melissa, and they 134 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: had the fact that you had a murder conviction on 135 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: your record from the drunken fight ten years earlier, completely 136 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: unrelated by the way, which was a very different situation obviously. 137 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: But after the show Melissa your photo, this poor little 138 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: girl was shown a four person live lineup with you 139 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: in it. And here's the thing. You had short hair 140 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 1: and a slight build, but the other three men didn't 141 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: resemble you at all. 142 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: Right, one was about six inches taller than I was, 143 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: and all of them had stremeway long hair and were 144 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: built a lot bigger than I was. I've always been 145 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: a small person. I was smaller than that lineup. Not 146 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: to mention that they were all younger than I. 147 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: Was Yeah, So this is suggestive. Isn't even a strong 148 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: enough word. And this is why I believe that these 149 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: things should all be recorded. I wouldness identification, not just 150 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,359 Speaker 1: interrogations of suspects, because I mean, how much more traumatized 151 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: could a child be. She's witnessed her own mother's brutal 152 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: murder and also was stabbed several times by this monster. 153 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: And now imagine her, this little child, with these police officers, 154 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, steering her. Maybe they were doing it consciously, subconsciously, 155 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, towards the one guy in the lineup 156 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: who looked anything like what she had said she remembered 157 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: from this attack. Also, during the investigation, there was hair 158 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: found and Puba CA hair that apparently did not belong 159 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: to Joe an tape. So the state brings in a 160 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: few quote unquote experts and we'll get to that insanity 161 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: in just a bit. Okay, So you're arrested, Rodney on 162 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: May twenty third of nineteen eighty two, So this is 163 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: just a few weeks after the attack. You're arrested and 164 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: charged based on this let me say this sort of 165 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: just the identification procedure, this junk science of the hair 166 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: and the basic idea that they had tunnel vision because 167 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: they said, well, here's a guy who had been convicted 168 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: of murder, nothing like this one, nothing in common at all, 169 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: and who dated her just briefly, so it must be him. 170 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: So you're in jail awaiting trial from May nineteen eighty 171 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: two until August of nineteen eighty three. 172 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: I would be in jail for five hundred and thirty 173 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: five days. 174 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: Five hundred and thirty five days, that's about a year 175 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: and a half awaiting the trial. But now you had kids. 176 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: You had with four kids by this. 177 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: Point, ah, yes, two downs and two daughters. 178 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: And your daughter Cave's here with us now. So kay, 179 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: what was all of this like for you? What do 180 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: you remember feeling at that time? 181 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 3: Confusion, why was this happening? Just was so lost as 182 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 3: to why how could this even be a thought that 183 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 3: he could do something like this. And I remember the 184 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: first time we went to visit him when he was 185 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: being held at the city jail, shortly after he was arrested, 186 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 3: and he just looked us in the eyes and said, 187 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 3: I need you to know I didn't do this. I 188 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 3: had nothing to do with this, And that was really 189 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 3: all I needed to hear and I really believed that. Okay, 190 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 3: so he didn't do it. These guys are trying to 191 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 3: just do their job. They'll figure out that it wasn't 192 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 3: him and he'll come home. And of course that didn't happen. 193 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: And it was a year and a half before he 194 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: went to trial, and we thought, well, okay, he's going 195 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: to trial, they'll figure it out, the judge'll sent him home. 196 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: And in the first trial that almost panned out. And 197 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: who represented you, Rodney. 198 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 2: I'll eject the ganet by an attorney by the name 199 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 2: of Robert Hampey. 200 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: And how long did the trial take? 201 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: The big trout took fifteen days. 202 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: And it ended in the seven to five split verdict 203 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: which hung the jerry. Of course, so now back to 204 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: jail to await another trial, which took place in October 205 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty three. And was it the same attorney 206 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: that represented you in the second trial? 207 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: Yes. 208 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: So at the second trial, the state presented two criminalists 209 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: who were employed by the City of Saint Louis Police department, 210 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: Joseph Crowe and Harold Mesler, who testified about hair that 211 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: was found at the crime scene. Now, Crow said that 212 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: he examined a blanket found in the bedroom, found hair, 213 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: and found one sample of a pubic hair that did 214 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: not belong to the victim. On cross examination, mister Crowe 215 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: stated that the information that can be gathered from a 216 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: hair is limited and that he didn't think it was 217 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: possible to determine the age of the person. That one 218 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: could not identify the ethnicity of a hair from a 219 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: Caucasian quote with a great deal of certainty. This doesn't 220 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: sound like very strong testimony. So the hair evidence was 221 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: then passed to Mesler, the other guy, to examine, and 222 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: he testified that compared to a sample from you dy, 223 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: along with samp from thirty seven other Caucasians, the thirty 224 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: seven others were not comparable to the hair found at 225 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: the scene. Okay, so I'm no scientists, but so these 226 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: thirty seven other samples, thirty seven other people, that's what 227 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: passed for the exclusion of anyone else on the planet. Right, 228 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable that this is allowed to go on in 229 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: a court of law. But okay, Later, the same guy, 230 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: Mesa testify that when examining the thirty seven other individuals's 231 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: hair along with Tate's hair and Lincoln's hair, only yours 232 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: Rodney matched, and that in two hundred cases that he 233 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: had handled, he had never found one where hair recovered 234 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: from the crime scene matched to more than one person. Again, 235 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: what does that even mean or prove? I mean, if 236 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: the process is getting thirty seven samples, who cares? If 237 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: you did the same shoddy testing two hundred times or 238 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: two million times, does that disproved that your suspect's hair 239 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: is just similar to the actual killers hair? How do 240 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: you know that from this method? Well, the answer is 241 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: you don't. Hair microscopy possesses little to no forensic value. 242 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: You know. I'm reading this fantastic book now, and fact 243 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: I just finished it last night by m. Chris Fabricant, 244 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: and it's called Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System. 245 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: One of the things it highlights is how the National 246 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: Category of Sciences did a study not that long ago 247 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: where the FBI was forced to admit that they had 248 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: been lying in case after case for decades about this evidence. 249 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: A sampling of the first five hundred transcripts revealed that 250 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: special agents had given bogus testimony in about ninety six 251 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: percent of the cases, thirty five had been death penalty convictions, 252 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: and all but two of those had been marred by 253 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: false testimony. Now nine men had already been put to death, 254 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: and five more had died of other causes while waiting 255 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: to be executed on death row due to this junk science. 256 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: It's nothing short of a forensic testimony disaster. So you've 257 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: got this junk science presented at your trial, Rodney, but 258 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: it's really there to support Melissa, whose testimony, despite the inconsistencies, 259 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: was still very powerful. We're talking about what was she 260 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: by the time of the trial, just nine years old? 261 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: I believe Jella, yes. 262 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: So she described with the little nine year old Melissa 263 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: describe waking up to screams and seeing her mother laying 264 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: down on her stomach in a little blood. Near the 265 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: door to her bedroom. She said, she saw a naked 266 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: man and again I'm sorry you have to hear this, 267 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: who came over to her bed, picked her up and 268 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: carried her up to tape the bedroom, put her on 269 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: the bed, and removed her clothes. She said he tried 270 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: to get her to quote do a few things. He 271 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: stand her repeatedly, and she attempted to play dead until 272 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: he stopped again. This is her testimony, she said. The 273 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: attacker then washed off the knife and she hid under 274 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: her sister's bed, and she then heard the attacker hurt 275 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: her sister. Oh man, this is just kidding worse and worse. 276 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: When she was in her mother's bedroom, she said she 277 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: got a good look at the killer. She said she 278 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: did not remember his name at the time, but she 279 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: remembered seeing him before that night, a long time ago, 280 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: when she Renee and her mom spent the night at 281 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: your house, Rodney. And she said the house was across 282 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: from a park with a playground, and that your mother 283 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: and some pets lived there, and she identified the playground 284 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: at the park from photos. She then identified a photo 285 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: of Hugh Rodney as her attacker, as attacker of the 286 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: whole family, and she identified you in the courtroom as well. 287 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: She then explained that she initially said because you remember 288 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: she had said Bill, did it right? Because she was 289 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: sick and hurt and everyone kept bothering her for a name, 290 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: she just said Bill. She stated several times that Bill 291 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: and Lincoln were the same person, and at the time 292 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: of the attacks, she did not really know your name. 293 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: And I sit there in a second trial, I'm beginning 294 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: to see I am, and some bisure your trouble. 295 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your defense. Your attorney, Ridy Robert Hampy, 296 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: who had been with you now for quite some time 297 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: through the first trial and the second trial. Yes, he 298 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: had an almost impossible task because how do you cross 299 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: examine a traumatized, terrified little girl who's lost her mother 300 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: and almost lost her own life as well as seeing 301 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: her sister savagely attacked. I don't know how you go 302 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: about doing that, but how did he attempt to because 303 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: she was really the whole case, right. 304 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 2: Right, I think as I look back on it now, 305 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: his whole line of attack. He hought mostly on the 306 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: inconsistencies of his statements, trying to get it to repeat 307 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: the different things that she had said in the past 308 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: that was not exactly it's supposed to be. Now, as 309 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: I look back on it now, I almost feel like 310 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: he founding her. 311 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: Well, that could backfire as well, because I mean, he 312 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: had to walk a tightrope, and it sounds like he 313 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: didn't do it very well. But he literally was in 314 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: between a rock and a hard place, because the jury's 315 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: not going to want to see him being anything other 316 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: than gentle so to speak to this child. But he 317 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: had your life on the line, and the only way 318 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: to get you out of this at this point was 319 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: to undermine her testimony, which, as of course, turns out 320 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: all those years later to have been false. Okay, So 321 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: then we get to the closing argument, and in the 322 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: state's closing argument, they didn't really focus on the hair sample. Rather, 323 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: they kept harping on little Melissa's testimony, noting that Renee 324 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: was too young to testify and stating that Melissa quote 325 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: bore the responsibility for the three of them to tell 326 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: you what happened that night. Whoa. And then they recapped 327 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: Melissa's identification of you, Rodney, And I'd say at that 328 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,719 Speaker 1: point your fate was probably more or less sealed. I mean, 329 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: these are people on the jury, these are normal people, well, 330 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: who are listening to this testimony, this child, and who 331 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: want to get justice for her and her mom and 332 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: her sister and the family. And so I think that 333 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: that's going to cloud their judgment. And while they may 334 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: have had real doubts as to your guilt, at this point, 335 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: the human instinct is depended on somebody, right. So how 336 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: long did they deliberate for the second trial? 337 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: They was out I think about two a half hours well. 338 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: It's not very long at all. And when they came 339 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: back in, did you still hold out hope or did you, 340 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: as you said before, you knew you were in serious 341 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 1: trouble and you basically resigned yourself to the idea that 342 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: these people were going to come back and render a 343 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: Guilly verdict. 344 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 2: No, no, I fell felt that they're going to get 345 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: it right. They come back and say, look, we can't 346 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: find enough everything. 347 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: Convict this guy, and you would go home and try 348 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: to piece your life back together again. But unfortunately that 349 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: was not to be so Rodney. When the jury came 350 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: back in, what was that moment like when they convicted 351 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: you and sentenced you to life in prison plus fifteen 352 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: years for a crime you had nothing to do with. 353 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 2: I find it very hard to describe that feeling. It 354 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 2: was just like everything inside of me was yanked out. 355 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: Nothing there but the shell. At that time. I was 356 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 2: taken to the Madrid State Penitentiary in Jefferson City. When 357 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: I arrived, I was taken to a large room with 358 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: a bunch of other people. We were stripped down, got 359 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: into a shire where we were strayed like cattle. I 360 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 2: was designed to two house at the Jafferton City Penitentiary. 361 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 2: Once I got there, it was a living nightmare. I 362 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 2: was always looking over my shoulder do anything or going anywhere, 363 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: and remained that way for just about for ten years. 364 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, you're enduring these archaic and barbaric prison conditions 365 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: while being handed one devastating disappointment after another from the courts. 366 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: And by that I mean that in nineteen eighty six, 367 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: your wrongful conviction was upheld on direct appeal, and then 368 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: the motion for post conviction relief was denied two years 369 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: later in nineteen eighty eight. But a crucial breakthrough came 370 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three when the Saint Louis, Missouri 371 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney's Office or a Justice Project to review old 372 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: convictions and chose your case to review out of fourteen 373 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: hundred old cases. And here I'd like to turn back 374 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: to your daughter, k because she plays an absolutely crucial 375 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: role in what happens next. It's okay, can you take 376 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: us through this. 377 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 3: It was June fifth, two thousand and three. I got 378 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 3: off work that evening and I stopped by my mom's 379 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 3: house and I walked in the door and she was 380 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 3: just finishing watching the news, and she said, your dad 381 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 3: maybe out in a couple weeks. And I said, you're crazy, 382 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 3: what are you talking about. She said, they just showed 383 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 3: his picture on the news and they said they're reviewing 384 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 3: his case. So the next morning I called down to 385 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 3: the Circuit Attorney's office and I asked them is this true? 386 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 3: Is he one of the cases? And they verified that yes, 387 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 3: this was one of the cases that they were looking at. 388 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 3: And so I started a communication with the man who 389 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 3: was in charge of doing this review, and through the 390 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 3: course of our communication, they said, well, we can't find 391 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: the transcripts. We can't get a hold of the trains. 392 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 3: So I tracked them down. I went to the Court 393 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 3: of Appeals and I purchased the transcripts from them. It 394 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: was like twelve hundred dollars to get these transcripts. I 395 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: made copies and took them down to the Circuit Attorney's 396 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: office and said here you go, get busy, you know. 397 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 3: So as they're doing their review, I'm rereading these transcripts myself, 398 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: and I'm just getting blown away by the things that 399 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 3: I'm seeing. Because my aunt had an original copy of 400 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 3: Melissa's deposition from back in nineteen eighty two, so I'm 401 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 3: comparing Melissa's deposition to things that were said in trial, 402 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: and I'm like, well, this isn't even jiving. It's not 403 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 3: making sense. So then I thought, well, I need to 404 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 3: see these police reports. So I requested the police reports, 405 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 3: and it took forever to get them. The police department 406 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 3: did not want to give them to me. Now I'm 407 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 3: reading them and I'm freaking out because there's so much 408 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 3: information here. The more I read, the more I need 409 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 3: to find more, you know. So I'm like, I need 410 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 3: this lineup photo. And I had to fight and fight 411 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 3: to get the lineup photo. I finally got that and 412 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 3: I was just blown away. I don't know if you've 413 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 3: seen it, but it's incredible. 414 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, it really is. I mean, the suggested nature, 415 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing. You know, there's these huge dudes with 416 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: long hair and your dad's got short hair and a 417 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: lighter build. 418 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost like a joke. So I got the 419 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 3: lineup photo. I'm reading trial transcripts and police reports and 420 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, well, there's more depositions somewhere. So I 421 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: go back down to the courts and I request all 422 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 3: the depositions and I'm reading through them and one really 423 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: got my attention. There was a criminologist I guess by 424 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 3: the name of John Salmone, and in his deposition he 425 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: states that he identified a fingerprint on the knife as 426 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 3: my dad's and I'm like, wait a minute, that never 427 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 3: came up in I guess. It was my dad's attorney 428 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 3: who was doing the deposition, and he said, are you 429 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: aware of a man named George bone Break? And Detective 430 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 3: Salmone said yes, he was a fingerprint analysis expert at 431 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 3: the FBI, And so the attorney asks him, are you 432 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 3: aware that this print was sent to George bone Break 433 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 3: for evaluation. They go off the record, come back on 434 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 3: the record, and he states that he is no longer 435 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 3: willing to testify that that is Rodney Lincoln's fingerprint unless 436 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 3: George bone Break testifies that it's Rodney Lincoln's fingerprint. Well, 437 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: what happened was the police department had sent that print 438 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 3: to bone Break to try to get confirmation of it 439 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 3: being his. Bone Break gave them back a report saying no, 440 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 3: it's not his fingerprint, and he actually offered to testify 441 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 3: for the defense, but wanted like one thousand dollars or 442 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 3: something that they didn't have to pay him. So you 443 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 3: had a detective who says this is his fingerprint and 444 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,239 Speaker 3: absolutely knows it's not, and that was never brought up 445 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 3: at trial. Dad's attorney and the prosecutor agreed to a 446 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 3: stipulation that neither one of them would bring that print 447 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 3: up at trial. And I was like, why in the 448 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 3: hell would his attorney not bring that up. 449 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: So this investigation into your dad's conviction by this circuit attorney, well, 450 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: in April two thousand and four, they decided to close 451 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: it down right. They said they couldn't locate the fingernail 452 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: scrapings from Joanne from the attacker and couldn't provide any 453 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: conclusive proof with the hair, so they wouldn't be doing 454 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: any further investigation or testing. I mean, I can't imagine 455 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: how that would have felt. What did you do? What 456 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: were you thinking? Then? 457 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 3: I'm like, wait a minute, I've got way too much 458 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: information now in the past ten months, somebody's going to 459 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 3: do something. You might be finished, but I'm not, and. 460 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: You weren't, and we're about to get into that. I mean, Rodney, 461 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: you have to be so proud of cam Damn. I'm 462 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: proud of k and without her we probably wouldn't even 463 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: be having this conversation right now. 464 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it would be a hold up. Was straight than 465 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 2: what I am today, It's not. For she gathered all 466 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: the information and did all the legwork and did a 467 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 2: lot of the investigation. Contacted a guy by the name 468 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: of Steve Weinberg who was a journalist at the Columbia 469 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: School of Journalists. He was also the founder of the 470 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 2: Midwest Entrance. CAE made contact with him and he used 471 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: my case with his journalists students and allowed them to 472 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: investigate my case and they came up with a lot 473 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: of the information that we have today. 474 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: So it's now twenty ten, so this ordeal has now 475 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: been going on for more than a quarter century. In ten, 476 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: DNA testing that the Midwest intern Project had fought for 477 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: was approved and samples from the crime scene were tested, 478 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: and of course the results did not match you, Rodney. 479 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: And then MIP filed to have you released, but the 480 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: motion was supposed and Circuit Court Judge Robin Vanoy ruled 481 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: that the DNA results were not enough to exonerate you, Rodney. 482 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: I mean, how did it feel to you when you 483 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: were aware that the DNA had exculpated you? 484 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: Right? 485 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: And yet the courts are saying, and we're not buying 486 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: that DNA stuff. 487 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 2: Well, what we were told that DNA on the hair 488 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: was not enough to release me because they still had 489 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 2: the eye witnestemony. 490 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: Right. So in twenty fourteen, we come to a crucial 491 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: turning point in this case, and that brings us to 492 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: this awful character in this story today. And we've heard 493 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: his name on the show before. I'm talking about serial 494 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: killer Tommy lynz Sells, And so I reached out out 495 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: to a fascinating person whose investigative work into just how 496 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: many innocent people were in prison for murders that were 497 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: actually committed by Tommy Lindzels led him to start several 498 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: organizations in different states, including the Illinois Innosons Project. By 499 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 1: the way, just to give you an idea of how 500 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: many murders and wrawful convictions for which cells is responsible. 501 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: Julie Ray, who's been on the show herb whitlock you Rodney, 502 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: of course, And we're not even scratching the surface. So 503 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: in speaking with this investigator, he gives us a look 504 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: inside his journey into the murderous career of Tommy lin Sells, 505 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: starting with the wrawful conviction of Randy's Steidle and how 506 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: that unfolds into Rodney's case. 507 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 4: My name is Bill Clutter. I'm a private investigator. Twenty 508 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 4: years ago, I started the Illinois Innocence Project in Springfield, Illinois. 509 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 4: I was involved in the case of Rady' Stidel, who 510 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: spent most of his seventeen years on death row. You know, 511 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 4: in twenty fourteen, although Stidl Whitlock were free, they still 512 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 4: hadn't had their names cleared, and so I filed a 513 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 4: affidavit detailing all the crimes of Tommy lyn Cells. So 514 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 4: part of those details included his modus apperende were in 515 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 4: many of his cases. He would strike at four am, 516 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 4: take knives from the kitchen where he would stab his 517 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 4: victims to death. But it was the details of the 518 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 4: Dardine case that was in my affidavit that caught the 519 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 4: attention of an attorney in Rhode Island, Jen Fitzgerald. She 520 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 4: reached out to me and asked if I was aware 521 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 4: of the Rodney Lincoln case. When she started telling me 522 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 4: the details, that the murder happened at four am, a 523 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 4: knife from the kitchen was used, that it happened in 524 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 4: Saint Louis, where I knew that Tommy Lynzell's family moved 525 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 4: around February of nineteen eighty two. That was significant because 526 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 4: it gives Cell's opportunity to have committed the murder of 527 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 4: Joanne Tate. And here he was only seventeen at the time, 528 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 4: and this would have been one of his very early 529 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 4: murders that he committed, and all of the factors of 530 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 4: that case are identical to many of his other cases. 531 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 4: Four Am Knife from the Kitchen, And it so happened 532 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 4: that crime watched daily it was a new syndicated crime show, 533 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 4: reached out and was interested in doing a story about 534 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 4: my investigation linking Cells to the murder of Joanne Tate. 535 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 4: It was that show when it aired in November of 536 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 4: twenty fifteen that triggered the recantation of Melissa Debore. When 537 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 4: she saw the images of Tommy Lynn Cells, she had 538 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 4: a flashback and this visceral reaction and she reached out 539 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 4: to Kay Lincoln on social media that your dad is innocent, 540 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 4: Tommy lynz Cells killed my mother. 541 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: Well, it sure checks out because when you look at 542 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: the grotesque details of Missus Ruby Dardine's murder, and again, 543 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: brace yourself because this is grotesque, but Missus Dardean's body 544 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: was found next to her three year old son and 545 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: newborn baby. Now, Tommy lind Sells was a hitman for 546 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: hire as well as just seemed like he just enjoyed violence, 547 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: like it was his sort of weird kick, and this 548 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: case appears to be one of the hired variety because 549 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: it's believed that the mafia actually hired him to brutalize 550 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: the Dardines. The husband, Keith, in particular, was made to 551 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: watch his family be physically destroyed. Tommy lind Sells had 552 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: waited for Ruby's husband Keith to come home, and during 553 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: this time, Ruby gave birth to her baby. Oh my god, 554 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna cry. And Keith was found a while away, 555 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: shot execution style with his penis severed and stuffed into 556 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,479 Speaker 1: his mouth. I mean, and his wife Ruby was found 557 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: And this is important. Again, cover your ears if you're squeamish, 558 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: But this is important because it relates back to the 559 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding the tape murder. Missus Dardine was found with 560 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: a baseball bat protruding from her vagina, so this was 561 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: this sick bastard's mo After Melissa reached out to Kay 562 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and Midwest Insis Project shifted their attention to 563 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: Tommy but in cells. At some point, Melissa learned that you, Rodney, 564 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: were left handed, unlike the man who killed her mom 565 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: and attacked her. So on November twenty eight, twenty fifteen, Melissa, 566 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: now a grown woman, well into her I guess forties 567 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: now from that nine year old girl who testified a 568 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: seven year old girl that had been attacked. She recanted 569 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: her testimony against Rodney Lincoln. She said, and this is 570 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: a direct quote, Rodney Lincoln did not kill my mom. 571 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: He did not attempt to kill my sister and I 572 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: it was Tommy Lynn Sells. When the veil fell from 573 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: my eyes, I was horrified. I have kept an innocent 574 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: man in prison for thirty four years. I did not 575 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: know I was wrong, but I was and realizing it 576 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: is so painful. When I saw a picture of Tommy 577 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 1: wind says, I had a horrible, horrible feeling. And when 578 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: I think about that terrible night, I now see how 579 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: I could have gotten mixed up. This is all I 580 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: can really say right now. End quote. 581 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: I learned about that again through my daughter. She came 582 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 2: up to visit me and when she told me that 583 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: she talked to Melissa and Milita was going to recant 584 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 2: whose statement, we laughed. Replied, I felt, at last, it's 585 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: finally ending. Then, after Melissa actually went through the prosecutor's office, 586 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: I was told how Melissa was treated like she couldn't 587 00:34:53,280 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 2: possibly be right after thirty years, saying that she yet 588 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: they don't have any trouble believing her when she was seving. 589 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 2: That amazed me. 590 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems backwards and upside down and inside out 591 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 1: and everything right. And it's amazing how they can just 592 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: believe what they want to believe when they want to 593 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: believe it, and then discount it when it doesn't match 594 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: exactly what they want the narrative to be. I can't 595 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: leave out that this poor poor woman, Melissa, is now 596 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: being re traumatized as she learns that she had been 597 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: lied to by the people who were sworn to protect 598 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: and serve her, and who, as a child who had 599 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 1: just lost her mother, must have been just imagine clinging 600 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: onto anyone, any grown up that you think might be 601 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: able to help you, and to have been betrayed, and 602 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: then to as she said so eloquently in such a 603 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: heartfelt manner to now have to live with this awful 604 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: feeling that she was responsible for putting a man who 605 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it in prison for I mean, Jesus, 606 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: you served almost four decades in prison, and now the 607 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: state is refusing to listen to her. But she wasn't 608 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: done yet. December twenty fifteen, Melissa went and met with 609 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: the Saint Louis Prosecuting Attorney's officers declare her recantation. And 610 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: she even came to meet you in prison to ask 611 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: for your forgiveness. 612 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I told her that there was nothing to 613 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 2: forgive her far if she didn't do anything. She was manipulated, collers, 614 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 2: guided and tricked. I couldn't forgive there was anything to 615 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: forgive her for if she was in it. We did 616 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 2: the hug, We tried, we laughed. When she first walked 617 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 2: up to me, she just kept saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry, 618 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and I kept down there's nothing to be charged, boy, 619 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 2: you didn't do anything. It was a moment. I can't 620 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 2: really describe how I felt. It was a moment that 621 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 2: I would cherish the rest of my life. 622 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm always at a loss for words when I hear 623 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 1: these stories. What I read is that what you said 624 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: to her when she begged for your forgiveness was I 625 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,439 Speaker 1: have nothing to forgive you for you are completely blame nous. 626 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: I thank you for your courage, but you only have 627 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: my love, not any anger from me. I'm so sorry 628 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: for you and for losing your mom. Well, that's probably 629 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: exactly what she needed to here and probably exactly what 630 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: you need to get off your chest. And then things 631 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: started to roll. Even though there was still one more 632 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: major speed bump ahead right, which is out of twenty seventeen. 633 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: Despite the DNA evidence and the sole eyewitness both on 634 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: your side, your case was still denied a review by 635 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 1: the Missouri Supreme Court. I mean, like, like what I mean, 636 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: what was your reaction to that? 637 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 2: Well, by the time I'm being getting to understand they 638 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 2: are perfect, court system isn't so perfect. The decision of 639 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 2: the appeals court that innocence isn't enough to free a 640 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 2: person unless they have the death penalty that flowed me, 641 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: and then the Supreme Court wouldn't even hear the case. 642 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 2: He separately den I to hear it. 643 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, Like what deny it 644 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: on what basis? But you're here today. And that's because 645 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: remarkably Governor Briton's certainly not a criminal justice reformer, stepped 646 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: in and commuted your sentence into the twenty eighteen and 647 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: you were immediately released, not pardon, by the way, and 648 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: so you're still living as a convicted murderer, which is insane. 649 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:32,240 Speaker 2: You know, I wonder about that today. I didn't find 650 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 2: out about this until around ten thirty the morning of 651 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 2: the day that I left. They came and got me 652 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 2: and told me I had to go up front and 653 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: wait for a call from the governor. The phone rang, 654 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 2: and I was sitting in the office at time. Manager 655 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 2: Aim through the phone and he and the phone to me. 656 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,399 Speaker 2: I say, hello, boy, says is this Ridney Lincoln. I said, yes, 657 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 2: it is. He said, someone here wants to speak to you. 658 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 2: He is the governor of the state of Missouri. And 659 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 2: then governor comes on, he says Rodney, I said, yes, sir. 660 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 2: He said, I just wanted to call and tell you 661 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 2: that I'm commuting your sentence to time served. The only 662 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 2: thing I could think of at that moment would thank you. 663 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 2: And then the governor told me, Ridney, I want you 664 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 2: spend the rest of your time building a better community, 665 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 2: making this a better country, and God blessed you. And 666 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,439 Speaker 2: you only I could say was God bless you. 667 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,439 Speaker 1: That's a short and sweet conversation if I ever heard one. 668 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 2: Yes, shut, sweet and at least for me, very powerful. 669 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 2: I never left the penitentiary until twenty minutes after six 670 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 2: that evening, and I walked out. My two daughters and 671 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 2: my grandson and two of my attorneys were there to 672 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 2: meet me. 673 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: Rodney, I got to ask, what was that like? Like you, 674 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: I'm talking about your first steps out as a free 675 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: man into free air after so many long years in prison. 676 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,879 Speaker 2: You know today everything's virtual, and it's kind of way 677 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 2: I felt there. I didn't you know, happened virtually. This 678 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:33,720 Speaker 2: isn't real. 679 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: So you felt like it was a dream. 680 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely very good, one better dream. 681 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: And then what did you do? So a lot of 682 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: hugs and tears, I'm sure, and laughing. 683 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 2: We uh tried laugh. I have a very emotional family. 684 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 2: One of the things that I remember so vividly is 685 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 2: I remember telling my daughter how much better the sunshine 686 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: felt outside of the prison from the way it did 687 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 2: on the inside. 688 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,720 Speaker 1: What a day man. And meanwhile, that was back in 689 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen and it's now twenty twenty two, so this 690 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: is a little more than three and a half years ago, 691 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: and I understand that you have been traveling the country 692 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: speaking about your experience courageously and advocating to try to 693 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: help prevent others from going through the same nightmare that 694 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: you went through. There's a wonderful quote that I read 695 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: from you that said, just the fact that I could 696 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: possibly help someone that was the same position that I 697 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: was in, if I could do something today that makes 698 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: me a better person or help someone else, It's been 699 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: a good day. That's awesome. You're awesome, man. That's all 700 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: I can say about that. So how's life been these 701 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 1: three and a half years of freedom? 702 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 2: Fantastically amazing would almost cover it. Since I've been out, 703 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 2: I've been on several vacations, did some deep sea fati, 704 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 2: did some pair of gliding, rode the pirate ship. I 705 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 2: jumped out of a perfectly good airplane twice. 706 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: Amazing. 707 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 2: I'm using this time to learn more about myself as 708 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 2: well as the people around me. I was away and 709 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 2: a lot of things you just lose touch of, and 710 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: I'm trying to regain that tightness and family bonds. I 711 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 2: try and keep in touch with many of the guys 712 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 2: back at the prisoners I can by email. Since it 713 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 2: COVID hit, I've been able to do much speaking advocating. 714 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,760 Speaker 2: Tend to continue with that, Well. 715 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: We need you out there, and we need you on here. 716 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: And the good news. You know, one hundred thousand plus 717 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: people will hear this podcast and hear your thoughts that 718 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: you've shared with us so generously. It's been an honor 719 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 1: for me to have the chance to interview you here today. 720 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: You are an inspiration and for people who want to 721 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: help Rodney as he hopefully lives another twenty thirty years 722 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: and as he continues to do his good work. There's 723 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,280 Speaker 1: a GoFundMe. Just go to the link in our bio. 724 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: We'll have it posted right there for you. One click, 725 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: donate five dollars, five hundred thousand dollars, whatever you want, 726 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 1: anything you can spare to help Rodney. You can also 727 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,399 Speaker 1: learn even more about this case on a podcast called 728 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,399 Speaker 1: The Real Killer. It's a twelve episode series and this 729 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: case certainly has a lot of layers to it. And 730 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: then Rodney, we now turn to the closing the show, 731 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: which we call closing Arguments. It works like this I'm 732 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: going to turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair, 733 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: turn the volume up, and leave my headphones on, and 734 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: just listen to any thoughts you want to share that 735 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:08,400 Speaker 1: we haven't already covered. 736 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 2: As far as my case, I think recovered that the 737 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 2: lay and I certainly appreciate you giving me this opportunity. 738 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,959 Speaker 2: One thing that I would like to share is Melissa 739 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,879 Speaker 2: is trying to get re established here in Saint Louis, 740 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,959 Speaker 2: and there's a go fund me for her to help 741 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 2: her raise money for housing. If you would go to that, 742 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 2: go from me and help Melussa out. She's having a 743 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 2: pretty rough time right now if you need some help, 744 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 2: and by helping her that would help me. 745 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. We'll also have the go fund me for Melissa, 746 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: who you've heard so much about in this episode. We'll 747 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: have it posted in our bio as well, So go there, 748 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: click on that. Rodney. What a generous and wonderful spirit 749 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 1: you are. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts with us. 750 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 2: Thank you again for having me. 751 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,960 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 752 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn, 753 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wartis with research by Lyla Robinson. The music 754 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 755 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 756 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 757 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,240 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava 758 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,480 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow 759 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. 760 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcas 761 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:05,280 Speaker 1: as an association with Signal Company Number one