WEBVTT - Seeker Syndrome 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:13.325 School of Humans. I want to recognize the devastation that 0:00:13.405 --> 0:00:16.605 India is facing with the pandemic. As a country that 0:00:16.685 --> 0:00:20.205 has given Astray so much, we're giving back to organizations 0:00:20.245 --> 0:00:23.845 assisting Indian civilians right now. My co producer in Kita 0:00:24.005 --> 0:00:27.045 Nand has suggested a few organizations that we've listed in 0:00:27.085 --> 0:00:33.325 the show notes. Last episode we followed Charlie Marinelli's trip 0:00:33.405 --> 0:00:36.565 to the Edge of Enlightenment in India, and that was 0:00:36.605 --> 0:00:39.645 supposed to be the end of Astray until Charlie told 0:00:39.685 --> 0:00:45.845 me about Datah, a psychoactive nightshade which he thinks might 0:00:45.885 --> 0:00:49.005 have led to a psychosis. But he only suspects this 0:00:49.245 --> 0:00:53.245 because he witnessed what he believes were the dangerous effects 0:00:53.285 --> 0:00:57.085 of data firsthand. It was scary to see her like that. 0:00:57.205 --> 0:00:59.445 I mean, I was like, what the hell, what is 0:00:59.525 --> 0:01:03.325 going on here? Charlie is commenting on the American woman 0:01:03.365 --> 0:01:06.525 in psychosis who he helped, a story we covered in 0:01:06.605 --> 0:01:09.605 episode eight, but we're bringing it up again because of 0:01:09.605 --> 0:01:14.165 a possible connection to to Torah. It was August twenty nineteen, 0:01:14.445 --> 0:01:17.245 a month into a stay in India, when he ran 0:01:17.285 --> 0:01:20.685 into this woman at a cafe. I could tell immediately 0:01:20.765 --> 0:01:24.445 that something was off, and I had the manager come 0:01:24.485 --> 0:01:26.565 over to me. He was like, hey, we got this 0:01:26.645 --> 0:01:30.805 American woman. She won't leave, like she's just kind of 0:01:31.325 --> 0:01:35.525 sought refuge in this cafe. She keeps her questing like 0:01:35.645 --> 0:01:39.085 the music to be turned down, and you know, she 0:01:39.165 --> 0:01:41.845 was freaked out and she was kind of like looking 0:01:41.885 --> 0:01:45.005 for a safe, quiet space, which the cafe is not. 0:01:45.925 --> 0:01:48.405 She was reacting to the music and chatter of the 0:01:48.445 --> 0:01:53.325 cafe and was visibly disturbed when anyone approached her. To Charlie, 0:01:53.405 --> 0:01:57.125 she seemed paralyzed, like she couldn't leave the cafe or 0:01:57.325 --> 0:02:00.365 was too scared too. She had a blank stare in 0:02:00.405 --> 0:02:03.645 her face. I mean, like I said, I don't even 0:02:03.645 --> 0:02:07.845 know her name. To Charlie mentioned this woman in episode eight. 0:02:08.365 --> 0:02:10.445 I asked him to track her down for an interview, 0:02:10.925 --> 0:02:14.045 but like he says, she couldn't tell me her name. 0:02:14.165 --> 0:02:17.125 And when I first talked to her, I went over 0:02:17.245 --> 0:02:19.965 and she wasn't really talking. I just asked her as like, 0:02:19.965 --> 0:02:23.765 can I sit down. She's kind of like nodded, and 0:02:23.845 --> 0:02:26.325 I sat down next to her and I just started, 0:02:26.485 --> 0:02:29.405 you know, talking, Hey, I'm you know, I'm from America too, 0:02:29.485 --> 0:02:35.365 and you know what's going on? And there wasn't much 0:02:35.405 --> 0:02:38.205 information that she was giving me. It was just kind 0:02:38.205 --> 0:02:41.205 of like, I mean, the lights were on, no one 0:02:41.245 --> 0:02:44.485 was home at the time. Charlie was hanging out with 0:02:44.525 --> 0:02:47.845 an Austrian guy who'd been living in India for eight years. 0:02:48.405 --> 0:02:51.165 He had traveled from Austria to India with a terminal 0:02:51.205 --> 0:02:55.885 cancer diagnosis. Healed himself there and with his passport expired, 0:02:56.205 --> 0:02:59.005 he just stayed one of the many who followed the 0:02:59.005 --> 0:03:01.885 grid in India. And I trusted the guy who was 0:03:02.725 --> 0:03:08.245 very intelligent, knew something about everything type guy just had information, 0:03:08.405 --> 0:03:11.645 just a lot of information. He said, he's like, it 0:03:11.965 --> 0:03:17.605 looks like Totra. The Austrian automatically identified this woman's erratic 0:03:17.685 --> 0:03:22.205 behavior as a reaction to the poisonous and psychoactive nightshade 0:03:22.565 --> 0:03:25.885 to Torah, and he gave me the whole rundown about 0:03:25.925 --> 0:03:28.285 like the Yogis will give it to people that that 0:03:28.405 --> 0:03:32.725 aren't going far enough in their opinion, what does that mean? 0:03:33.965 --> 0:03:38.005 They're they're not having as as deep of a spiritual 0:03:38.005 --> 0:03:42.845 experience as they hope. They're not going inwards enough. They're 0:03:42.845 --> 0:03:46.765 not they're not making progress in their opinion, They're not 0:03:47.325 --> 0:03:50.205 making it to the next level, and so the satura 0:03:50.325 --> 0:03:54.245 will be used to take these people to the next level. 0:03:54.765 --> 0:03:59.285 Precisely the way that I understand it is it's used 0:03:59.525 --> 0:04:05.045 as like how I would use psilocybin to get to 0:04:05.165 --> 0:04:10.565 another level, but it's a much more intense psychedelic and 0:04:11.445 --> 0:04:14.405 is used without people's knowling because it can just be 0:04:14.445 --> 0:04:18.045 slipped in food tea as well. Charlie managed to get 0:04:18.125 --> 0:04:20.925 some information out of the woman. She had traveled from 0:04:20.925 --> 0:04:23.965 Hawaii to India to attend two back to back silent 0:04:24.045 --> 0:04:27.485 yoga retreats and was participating in a dry fast during 0:04:27.525 --> 0:04:31.085 the second, which might have set her off. But according 0:04:31.125 --> 0:04:33.405 to the Austrian, what was going on with this woman 0:04:33.885 --> 0:04:36.765 didn't look like a response to her conditions or lack 0:04:36.805 --> 0:04:40.565 of sustenance. Her behavior looked like the effects of something 0:04:40.885 --> 0:04:48.805 far more dangerous and deadly. Data The nightshade this woman 0:04:48.885 --> 0:04:52.285 was allegedly altered by as a trumpet shaped flower that 0:04:52.365 --> 0:04:56.325 blooms in a variety of colors. It can be pure white, purple, 0:04:56.565 --> 0:05:00.085 a golden yellow. It blossoms in a shrub found in 0:05:00.205 --> 0:05:04.205 ornamental gardens or growing wild along roadsides in India, and 0:05:04.325 --> 0:05:07.765 because it's common there, it can result in accidental exposure, 0:05:08.485 --> 0:05:12.165 though there aren't times its potent toxin is used intentionally. 0:05:12.845 --> 0:05:16.525 The entire plant is poisonous from the roots to the seeds, 0:05:16.845 --> 0:05:19.965 though according to an article in the National Library of Medicine, 0:05:20.365 --> 0:05:24.125 the most concentrated levels of tropain alkaloids are found in 0:05:24.165 --> 0:05:31.325 the flowers, blooms, and seeds. These tropain alkaloid properties include hyociamine, atropine, 0:05:31.445 --> 0:05:35.885 and scopolamine, which when used separately with an awareness of dosage, 0:05:36.045 --> 0:05:39.565 can help aid anything from digestive issues to motion sickness, 0:05:39.605 --> 0:05:43.165 to Parkinson's to heart problems. But when these three are 0:05:43.205 --> 0:05:47.645 combined in a toxic trio, they're deadly and can easily 0:05:47.725 --> 0:05:51.485 lead to psychosis. When I was looking for stories about 0:05:51.485 --> 0:05:55.005 people who have been dangerously affected by tetaura, I found 0:05:55.005 --> 0:05:58.165 one reported in Vice about a man in Romania who, 0:05:58.205 --> 0:06:02.125 after consuming detaura seeds, fell into a deep sleep, but 0:06:02.205 --> 0:06:04.605 when he woke, he didn't know if he was awake 0:06:04.925 --> 0:06:09.845 or in a knight. He experienced terrifying hallucinations of monsters 0:06:09.965 --> 0:06:13.605 chasing him, and like Charlie, he didn't see things as 0:06:13.645 --> 0:06:16.605 they were. At one point during his episode, he was 0:06:16.685 --> 0:06:19.845 desperately trying to find his girlfriend and what he thought 0:06:19.845 --> 0:06:24.085 were train cars but were actually bushes. Eventually he found 0:06:24.125 --> 0:06:26.085 out that he'd been drugged by some guys who had 0:06:26.165 --> 0:06:28.925 robbed him. They took everything but left him in a 0:06:28.965 --> 0:06:33.325 psychotic state. He barely survived. As he said in the article, 0:06:33.605 --> 0:06:36.765 under the influence of tatora, you can't really tell whether 0:06:36.885 --> 0:06:39.485 or not you're awake and could easily jump in front 0:06:39.485 --> 0:06:45.045 of a truck. Tatora can be ingested, smoked, or absorbed 0:06:45.165 --> 0:06:48.405 topically and something like a lotion, and it can be 0:06:48.485 --> 0:06:51.965 used against others without their knowledge, which is something Charlie 0:06:52.045 --> 0:06:54.605 pointed out earlier from what he had heard from the 0:06:54.605 --> 0:06:58.885 Austrian Tatora's used on yoga or meditation retreats to get 0:06:58.925 --> 0:07:02.165 people to go deeper, further and hit this edge of 0:07:02.245 --> 0:07:06.925 enlightenment that, as we've heard, is psychosis. Though I couldn't 0:07:06.965 --> 0:07:09.445 find someone to talk to in the yoga meditation world 0:07:09.445 --> 0:07:12.845 with experience around datra, I did speak to a shaman 0:07:12.965 --> 0:07:17.365 from Costa Rica or a contemporary corndero, which is what 0:07:17.405 --> 0:07:22.205 Alberto Roman prefers to be called. Alberto is very aware 0:07:22.365 --> 0:07:27.725 of the potential dangers of data and ayahuasca circles. Ayahuasca 0:07:27.925 --> 0:07:31.405 is considered the vine of the soul, in some cases 0:07:31.445 --> 0:07:35.285 the vine of the dead. So most people who drink it, 0:07:35.845 --> 0:07:39.765 one of the experiences that they will consistently share is 0:07:39.925 --> 0:07:45.005 a connection communion with something beyond their ordinary awareness that 0:07:45.205 --> 0:07:50.485 is fulfilling. Deep. Ayahuasca is an Amazonian brew that originated 0:07:50.525 --> 0:07:55.885 among indigenous communities in South America. As a courandero, Alberto 0:07:56.085 --> 0:07:59.925 leads people through these ayouasca ceremonies. So when I do 0:08:00.005 --> 0:08:04.325 a ceremony, I treat everyone there as if they are 0:08:04.485 --> 0:08:08.645 shamans themselves, because typically in the old days, you know, 0:08:08.765 --> 0:08:12.565 there was a woman or somebody who would drum and 0:08:12.765 --> 0:08:15.965 chant and dance and receive some sort of information about 0:08:16.005 --> 0:08:18.485 what's happening in the habitat, or they would drink a 0:08:18.565 --> 0:08:24.125 potion and from their dispense wisdom. But now everybody wants 0:08:24.125 --> 0:08:27.245 to drink. So when I bring people into my circle, 0:08:27.485 --> 0:08:30.605 I tell them they're self shamanizing, not only for themselves, 0:08:30.845 --> 0:08:34.205 but for the group. So there's a level of accountability 0:08:34.565 --> 0:08:38.885 and responsibility that they have to also meet me at. 0:08:39.685 --> 0:08:43.845 But not all courandero or sammons have a moral compass 0:08:43.925 --> 0:08:48.805 like Alberto. That's when the torah comes into play. There 0:08:48.805 --> 0:08:52.405 has been a lot of controversy among people in this 0:08:52.605 --> 0:08:57.045 horizon around the use of datura because at certain doses 0:08:57.085 --> 0:09:01.005 it can have benefits, dosage and intension like anything else. 0:09:01.085 --> 0:09:05.965 Courandets and are not gurus. These are people also in 0:09:05.965 --> 0:09:09.485 a process of understanding who they are. They can be 0:09:09.525 --> 0:09:13.885 seduced by the money, by the power, by the status 0:09:14.045 --> 0:09:17.525 that's being brought to them by different cultures. And so 0:09:18.125 --> 0:09:21.085 when you mix ayahuasca, which is really you know, two 0:09:21.205 --> 0:09:25.725 main ingredients of the ayahuasca line and the chatuna leaves, 0:09:25.845 --> 0:09:29.085 then you have the traditional Ayahuaska experience. Not some people, 0:09:29.365 --> 0:09:32.565 when they add the tuda, they open up a space 0:09:32.645 --> 0:09:35.605 where where the participants is a little bit more suggestible 0:09:35.805 --> 0:09:40.205 to the influence of puddos or pandas who who might 0:09:40.285 --> 0:09:43.325 have either good intentions. I think that the tuda will 0:09:43.445 --> 0:09:47.965 will accelerate a process or might use it to suggest 0:09:48.045 --> 0:09:51.965 to a woman to have sex or to you know, 0:09:52.045 --> 0:09:54.965 bring more money to themselves. We've always had that in 0:09:55.005 --> 0:09:58.445 any tradition, you know, there's always there's always people that 0:09:58.525 --> 0:10:02.765 appropriate the lineage for their own their own gains. So 0:10:02.765 --> 0:10:06.325 it's not only a problem or a challenge within our communities. 0:10:06.365 --> 0:10:08.565 It happens in zen you know, you know the West 0:10:08.605 --> 0:10:11.765 Coast is always full of scandals with the zen Masters 0:10:11.805 --> 0:10:13.885 that all of a sudden have not dealt with the 0:10:14.125 --> 0:10:17.645 with their shadow of sexuality and intimacy and get all 0:10:17.685 --> 0:10:21.965 the boundaries confused. So data it can be very, very dangerous. 0:10:22.125 --> 0:10:25.045 So you know it's all about dosage. But there's enough 0:10:25.565 --> 0:10:29.005 of a discussion in the community around it that's proven 0:10:29.045 --> 0:10:31.045 that there's too many people that are have walked into 0:10:31.045 --> 0:10:35.765 the tradition without really spending the requisite amount of communion 0:10:35.885 --> 0:10:39.005 with these things. You know, could you speak to like 0:10:39.485 --> 0:10:42.165 more of the effects of data when it's used or 0:10:42.165 --> 0:10:45.645 when it's odd, it's so horrific, so you just kind 0:10:45.685 --> 0:10:49.605 of go into this dark space. Sometimes you're you're talking 0:10:49.605 --> 0:10:53.405 about larger doses and you're you're in mobile. Immobile is 0:10:53.405 --> 0:10:57.285 how Charlie described the American woman at the cafe. He 0:10:57.405 --> 0:11:00.645 said she was paralyzed, like she couldn't leave the cafe, 0:11:01.045 --> 0:11:04.445 which is what as soporific like data will do. You 0:11:04.485 --> 0:11:08.005 can have beautiful visions and you're also more suggestible, so 0:11:08.045 --> 0:11:12.205 when somebody tells you something or feeds you something information, 0:11:12.445 --> 0:11:15.805 you're less likely to challenge. This makes me think of 0:11:15.845 --> 0:11:19.845 Babbage's influence over Charlie. Like it was stated last episode, 0:11:20.485 --> 0:11:24.525 he was a puppet on a string. So the torah, 0:11:24.725 --> 0:11:27.925 like any mind altering drug, can be used as a 0:11:27.965 --> 0:11:31.405 form of control and an abuse of power, which is 0:11:31.405 --> 0:11:34.245 a dynamic that can easily come into play between a 0:11:34.285 --> 0:11:37.805 student and teacher or a follower, and they're a leader. 0:11:38.325 --> 0:11:42.045 Powers the capacity to affect and be affected. There's a 0:11:42.045 --> 0:11:47.205 positive side to power, which affirms liberates as active, and 0:11:47.245 --> 0:11:51.405 there's a negative side to power, which typically hinders, hampers, 0:11:51.445 --> 0:11:56.485 and restricts. So I think the boucles, the dark magicians 0:11:56.485 --> 0:12:00.005 what they're doing. Ultimately we use that example of power. 0:12:00.445 --> 0:12:04.485 They're restricting your capacity to be free, to live, to 0:12:04.525 --> 0:12:08.165 be liberated, to be active, to activate all all your potential. 0:12:08.245 --> 0:12:11.845 They're keeping that within a certain a certain range for 0:12:11.925 --> 0:12:17.125 their benefit. Tatora is not only abused in some spiritual ceremonies. 0:12:17.805 --> 0:12:21.605 In an article published by Wilderness and Environmental Medicine, it's 0:12:21.605 --> 0:12:25.565 been called roadside poison when it's baked into a cookie 0:12:25.645 --> 0:12:30.285 or another digestible and offered to unsuspecting devotees attending Hindu 0:12:30.365 --> 0:12:35.045 festivals like Ali and Shivaratri. The effects of the Tatorah 0:12:35.245 --> 0:12:38.885 forces people into a suggestible state, which has in some 0:12:38.965 --> 0:12:43.565 cases resulted in their being robbed or sexually assaulted. Is 0:12:43.605 --> 0:12:47.205 tata as common a threaten India as it seems, I 0:12:47.245 --> 0:12:50.805 asked in Kita about this. I have heard of the plant. 0:12:50.845 --> 0:12:53.605 I've also seen it very commonly growing in the wild. 0:12:53.965 --> 0:12:57.525 Whenever I see at my first thought is this is 0:12:57.565 --> 0:12:59.925 a plant which is supposed to be a favorite with 0:13:00.005 --> 0:13:03.805 Lord Shiva. I regularly see it being offered in Shiva temples, 0:13:04.485 --> 0:13:09.205 and the second thought, this is poison. According to Hindu 0:13:09.245 --> 0:13:13.405 religious text, tatorah is believed who have emerged from Lord 0:13:13.485 --> 0:13:18.645 Shiva's chest after he drank the deadly poison Hallao. This 0:13:18.725 --> 0:13:21.805 makes sense saying that Shiva is the god of death 0:13:21.845 --> 0:13:26.525 and destruction because Tatora is associated with Shiva. The plant 0:13:26.565 --> 0:13:30.325 has regularly offered, but not consumed, at Shiva Ratri, the 0:13:30.445 --> 0:13:35.125 annual festival honoring Shiva. Now, people drinking bang or what 0:13:35.245 --> 0:13:38.445 you call bang over there to get a high is 0:13:38.565 --> 0:13:42.005 very common, But I do not know of anyone personally 0:13:42.045 --> 0:13:45.725 who has ingested datura, maybe because of how deadly it 0:13:45.805 --> 0:13:48.445 can get. I was talking to someone who has spent 0:13:48.565 --> 0:13:51.165 a lot of a life in villages, and she said 0:13:51.365 --> 0:13:53.845 that some people who like to stay high twenty four 0:13:53.965 --> 0:13:57.525 seven would use a couple of tatura seeds along with 0:13:57.605 --> 0:14:00.725 whatever else they're taking for their high. But it is 0:14:00.765 --> 0:14:04.125 clearly not something people are as casual with as they 0:14:04.125 --> 0:14:08.365 are with some their natural intoxicans like bang or bang. 0:14:08.925 --> 0:14:11.405 Do you know anything about a toora being used in 0:14:11.445 --> 0:14:17.045 these Hindu festivals? Again, no, it's bang or bang that 0:14:17.205 --> 0:14:20.565 is used in holy but I have not personally seen 0:14:21.365 --> 0:14:25.805 being used in festivals. I actually read last year this 0:14:25.965 --> 0:14:30.125 newspaper report that said that around three people in a 0:14:30.205 --> 0:14:33.925 family got really sick because they put the tura seats 0:14:33.925 --> 0:14:36.605 in their shoes and they drank it because someone had 0:14:36.645 --> 0:14:40.085 told them it can cure them of COVID And they 0:14:40.165 --> 0:14:43.445 got really ill after it, and they were rushed to 0:14:43.445 --> 0:14:46.245 a hospital and thankfully they were saved. But this is 0:14:46.285 --> 0:14:49.045 how we hear of the tura when someone tries to 0:14:49.285 --> 0:14:52.605 bring it into their daily life. I mean, as a child, 0:14:52.645 --> 0:14:54.685 it was grilled into me that you will see this 0:14:54.805 --> 0:14:59.005 plant around and just know that this is poison. So 0:14:59.165 --> 0:15:02.285 when you listen to Charlie's story with Baba Ge, do 0:15:02.325 --> 0:15:04.645 you think that it could be possible that he would 0:15:04.645 --> 0:15:08.765 have been drugged with tatorah. From his account, he did 0:15:08.925 --> 0:15:13.045 seem drugged, not in his usual state. Now, I can't 0:15:13.125 --> 0:15:16.605 say if it was the tourah that was being used 0:15:16.645 --> 0:15:19.205 to have some kind of hold over him. Only a 0:15:19.205 --> 0:15:23.125 medical expert can qualify that. But if there is someone 0:15:23.165 --> 0:15:29.605 who has been using plants pollingestion regularly and knows that 0:15:29.685 --> 0:15:32.805 only a certain amount will get deadly and not beyond that, 0:15:33.325 --> 0:15:36.805 they could have used it. It's definitely a possibility. This 0:15:36.925 --> 0:15:41.725 is known first as something fatal and then as something 0:15:42.005 --> 0:15:47.685 that is an intoxicant. So basically, if someone possibly Babaje, 0:15:48.525 --> 0:15:51.685 had a knowledge of dosage with tatorah, they could use 0:15:51.685 --> 0:15:54.845 the plant as an intoxicant to affect another person whom 0:15:54.845 --> 0:15:57.805 they wanted to control, but would have enough awareness of 0:15:57.885 --> 0:16:01.365 the plant's potency not to kill them. After the break, 0:16:01.405 --> 0:16:04.605 we'll hear with Charley thinks was he drugged by tatorah 0:16:05.205 --> 0:16:14.525 or is it something else? Entirely, Charlie Marinelli got something 0:16:14.525 --> 0:16:17.205 out of his visit to India. He wasn't prepared for 0:16:17.845 --> 0:16:21.365 a psychotic break. He had never been diagnosed with mental 0:16:21.405 --> 0:16:23.925 health issues in the past, nor had he taken anything 0:16:23.965 --> 0:16:27.125 that wouldn't do such a long episode. But to Torah, 0:16:27.525 --> 0:16:29.925 I mean it can last six months. It can never 0:16:29.965 --> 0:16:34.645 go away, but it can last six months of psychosis. Charlie, 0:16:34.645 --> 0:16:38.525 psychosis lasted two months, not six, but it was two 0:16:38.565 --> 0:16:41.565 months too long. Why do you feel like you might 0:16:41.605 --> 0:16:44.605 have been slipped to Tora? It just adds up that 0:16:44.765 --> 0:16:48.925 Taura makes sense because I mean, even being on heavy 0:16:49.005 --> 0:16:53.005 antipsychotics after the fact, I was still in a psychotic 0:16:53.165 --> 0:16:56.885 state until I got out of the hospital in Austin, 0:16:57.285 --> 0:17:00.485 until I really got that dose of lithium for a week. 0:17:01.365 --> 0:17:05.525 Charlie describes this lithium dose as a chemical lobotomy, and 0:17:05.565 --> 0:17:08.045 then I started coming out of it, but I was 0:17:08.085 --> 0:17:12.965 still so confused up until that point, and just thinking 0:17:13.005 --> 0:17:15.805 that I was controlling a whole lot more in my 0:17:15.925 --> 0:17:21.125 surroundings than I was. The timeline makes sense. We're wired 0:17:21.165 --> 0:17:24.085 as humans to connect a cause to an effect, So 0:17:24.165 --> 0:17:26.685 to say that Charlie psychosis was an effect of to 0:17:26.845 --> 0:17:31.725 Torah makes his surreal experience makes sense, and knowing this 0:17:31.845 --> 0:17:35.005 information could prevent us from falling into the same trap. 0:17:35.565 --> 0:17:39.085 But like the other stories we've covered an astray, this 0:17:39.165 --> 0:17:43.045 is a gray area. We don't definitively know what triggered 0:17:43.125 --> 0:17:46.325 Charlie psychosis, just like we don't know what happened to 0:17:46.405 --> 0:17:49.565 Ryan Chambers, who presumably had a reaction to the anti 0:17:49.605 --> 0:17:53.965 malarial drug he was prescribed. Or Justin Alexander Schetler, who 0:17:53.965 --> 0:17:58.885 allegedly trusted a bad Sadu. Or Jonathan Spalen, whose disappearance 0:17:58.965 --> 0:18:03.445 is surrounded by endless possibilities, or Russell whose body was 0:18:03.485 --> 0:18:07.485 found but his cause of death remains a mystery. There 0:18:07.565 --> 0:18:11.005 is no conclusive cause behind the disappearances of these men, 0:18:11.565 --> 0:18:15.325 but there is one thing we know. India syndrome didn't 0:18:15.365 --> 0:18:19.685 have anything to do with it. Why isolate India? This 0:18:19.765 --> 0:18:23.965 is New Delhi based therapist, author, and international speaker on 0:18:24.085 --> 0:18:27.845 karma and consciousness Susie Singh, who I spoke to about 0:18:27.845 --> 0:18:31.485 black magic in the last episode as a listener of AUSTRAI. 0:18:31.885 --> 0:18:34.805 Singh has insightful thoughts on issues that have been raised 0:18:34.845 --> 0:18:37.565 in the podcast, which he shared in an interview within 0:18:37.645 --> 0:18:40.805 Keyta and Me. What about the praise for shamanism in 0:18:40.925 --> 0:18:44.565 Peru and the Iowa's tourism in South America? There have 0:18:44.645 --> 0:18:47.885 been reports of people who died after consuming the hellucygenet 0:18:47.965 --> 0:18:52.045 teach a plant. So perhaps the term should be Sika syndrome, 0:18:52.765 --> 0:19:02.725 not India syndrome. When Singh redefined India syndrome as seeker syndrome, 0:19:03.285 --> 0:19:07.005 it's so clearly articulated what I've been examining the podcast, 0:19:07.725 --> 0:19:10.485 what it means to be a seeker and how far 0:19:10.645 --> 0:19:13.805 one is willing to take that quest for enlightenment. But 0:19:13.925 --> 0:19:17.005 it also shed light on my own compulsion to seek. 0:19:17.925 --> 0:19:21.605 As seekers, we look outside ourselves for answers, which can 0:19:21.685 --> 0:19:26.365 lead to profound experiences, and as we've witnessed, can also 0:19:26.445 --> 0:19:29.885 lead to dangerous ones. But what if the answers we're 0:19:29.885 --> 0:19:33.965 seeking aren't outside of us at all? So how do 0:19:34.085 --> 0:19:37.925 you advise people to trust themselves more as opposed to 0:19:38.005 --> 0:19:43.445 looking outside of themselves for answers. So the first principle 0:19:43.685 --> 0:19:47.605 in the search is to know yourself. People think that 0:19:47.645 --> 0:19:49.965 they know their mind, but that is one of the 0:19:50.045 --> 0:19:54.525 hardest things to do. One needs to start by observing 0:19:54.565 --> 0:19:59.565 your thoughts, yourself talk, your constant judgment about people and things, 0:19:59.685 --> 0:20:05.165 your beliefs, behaviors, triggers, hot buttons, likes and dislikes, so 0:20:05.765 --> 0:20:10.685 mechanisms and fears, and practice with this regularly so that 0:20:10.805 --> 0:20:17.045 you can understand what is making you suffer, because what 0:20:17.085 --> 0:20:19.205 we are really striving to do is to give up 0:20:19.245 --> 0:20:23.965 the suffrag. The second principle is to own responsibility for 0:20:24.085 --> 0:20:28.125 finding your own truth, whether it's enlightenment, whether it's healing. 0:20:28.845 --> 0:20:33.125 We cannot expect that to be done by a second 0:20:33.205 --> 0:20:37.085 or third person. You must make it your own responsibility 0:20:37.165 --> 0:20:39.965 to find your troop or to find your healing, because 0:20:40.005 --> 0:20:43.045 that's the only way that will motivate you to work 0:20:43.165 --> 0:20:46.445 upon yourself. And the third principle is never give your 0:20:46.485 --> 0:20:51.005 power away. Learn to question things, and a true teacher 0:20:51.045 --> 0:20:54.005 will always take the trouble to explain it to you. 0:20:54.685 --> 0:20:57.965 A false teacher will subject you to authority and demand 0:20:58.085 --> 0:21:03.325 your trust. Trust, however, even by a teacher, must be earned. 0:21:04.045 --> 0:21:06.565 When it's given without truth, What the other is doing 0:21:06.685 --> 0:21:09.605 is taking your power away. They are taking away your 0:21:09.605 --> 0:21:12.925 power to think, to discern, to say no, to walk away. 0:21:12.965 --> 0:21:17.285 To protect yourself, never trust anyone blindly, do your checks 0:21:17.285 --> 0:21:20.405 on the person who wish to follow. Always follow and 0:21:20.485 --> 0:21:23.445 trust your own intuition because you do have what I 0:21:23.525 --> 0:21:28.605 call an inner guide, and that guide awakened you to 0:21:28.645 --> 0:21:32.125 your own quest. How can you not listen to your 0:21:32.205 --> 0:21:37.525 own inner guide. For women especially, I would say never 0:21:37.645 --> 0:21:42.365 meet baba's alone. The funny thing is women know this, 0:21:42.525 --> 0:21:45.765 and yet they continue to do it, you know, regardless 0:21:45.765 --> 0:21:48.685 of what claims these babas make about healing you. And 0:21:48.725 --> 0:21:53.165 this applies for people who are highly respected in society. 0:21:53.205 --> 0:21:55.605 It applies to people that your family may no one 0:21:55.685 --> 0:21:59.085 trust very deeply. I've had many incidents myself where I 0:21:59.165 --> 0:22:02.285 have been asked to sort of meet in private, and 0:22:02.365 --> 0:22:08.445 I have always said no. So it's very important that 0:22:08.485 --> 0:22:11.525 we do not fall into this trap because we have 0:22:11.605 --> 0:22:14.525 to understand there's a whole spin off industry related to 0:22:14.565 --> 0:22:17.405 spiritual healing, so we should not walk into any movie 0:22:17.485 --> 0:22:21.525 traps yet. Seeing also mentions being weary of taking food 0:22:21.685 --> 0:22:25.285 or drink from spiritual teachers, especially if you've just met them, 0:22:25.685 --> 0:22:28.845 or being initiated, and to any spiritual practice you don't 0:22:28.885 --> 0:22:33.805 have awareness or understanding of when we are really yearning 0:22:33.845 --> 0:22:38.365 for enlightenment over some answers of the spiritual response. We 0:22:38.485 --> 0:22:41.445 are very suggestible and we get very excited, like little 0:22:41.525 --> 0:22:43.925 children in a toy shop when we find someone who 0:22:43.965 --> 0:22:46.605 seems to know more than we do, or who promises 0:22:46.725 --> 0:22:52.325 us more than we can imagine, but be patient because 0:22:52.885 --> 0:22:57.485 nothing is going to accelerate your growth like your own 0:22:57.525 --> 0:23:02.085 spiritual practice. So trust in your own practice more than 0:23:02.125 --> 0:23:06.925 trusting in some third person to come and make it 0:23:06.965 --> 0:23:11.125 happen to you. When Singh was fifteen living in jaiper 0:23:11.605 --> 0:23:14.765 a baba appeared outside the gate of her home. He 0:23:14.885 --> 0:23:17.845 was wearing a string of holy basil beads around his neck, 0:23:18.325 --> 0:23:21.645 which he removed and with no words exchanged, handed a 0:23:21.765 --> 0:23:25.005 sing through the bars of the gate. She immediately put 0:23:25.005 --> 0:23:28.725 the beads on, and when she looked up, he had vanished. 0:23:29.725 --> 0:23:33.605 This exchange activated something and saying, she started hiding in 0:23:33.645 --> 0:23:36.645 the quiet of the house's storeroom so she could meditate, 0:23:36.965 --> 0:23:40.605 something she'd never done before, but she now knew advanced 0:23:40.725 --> 0:23:45.085 meditative techniques after the brief interaction with the unnamed baba. 0:23:45.325 --> 0:23:48.445 Because of this, the baba ended up becoming one of 0:23:48.445 --> 0:23:52.765 her greatest teachers. In all cases, in mind, I've had 0:23:52.805 --> 0:23:56.205 the teachers appear for me, come to me, and I 0:23:56.285 --> 0:24:00.365 have always told mine and tees, test your teacher before 0:24:00.365 --> 0:24:05.005 you thrust your life innocently into their hands, and never 0:24:05.085 --> 0:24:08.845 give you a power of discernment away to another. This 0:24:08.925 --> 0:24:11.005 is a mistake a lot of people make where they 0:24:11.005 --> 0:24:15.325 will blindly say, let the teacher decide for me what 0:24:15.525 --> 0:24:20.165 I should do, and they call it faith. Like Sidhartha says, 0:24:20.365 --> 0:24:26.525 your first requirement on the path is the ability to think. Sidhartha, 0:24:26.765 --> 0:24:29.485 a character in Hermann has his nineteen twenty two books 0:24:29.485 --> 0:24:32.565 by the same name, is on his own spiritual journey 0:24:32.565 --> 0:24:35.565 to self discovery, which unfolds in the book, and he 0:24:35.605 --> 0:24:39.645 says that on this spiritual path, the number one requirement 0:24:40.045 --> 0:24:44.085 is one's ability to think. That is something that they 0:24:44.165 --> 0:24:47.445 must never give away, because then you will not see 0:24:47.445 --> 0:24:50.405 harm coming, you will not listen to your intuition. A 0:24:50.525 --> 0:24:52.685 lot of the times we find that there are people 0:24:52.685 --> 0:24:59.325 who are in very authoritative positions in large organizations, and 0:24:59.445 --> 0:25:04.885 they're very well presented, and they speak very eloquently. The 0:25:04.925 --> 0:25:10.245 greatest guru speak very little, but their words ring with truth. 0:25:11.445 --> 0:25:14.565 There is one word these gurus are familiar with, and 0:25:14.605 --> 0:25:18.725 we've used it a lot in Astray, and that's enlightenment. 0:25:19.445 --> 0:25:22.805 After the break Seeing clarifies this term. But first she 0:25:22.885 --> 0:25:27.765 asks a simple question, why are you seeking enlightened? Why 0:25:27.805 --> 0:25:34.045 do you want that enlightenment? As a seeker herself saying, 0:25:34.045 --> 0:25:37.485 as a firsthand relationship to the quest for enlightenment, and 0:25:37.605 --> 0:25:41.485 she survived two near death experiences on this journey, which 0:25:41.565 --> 0:25:45.085 enabled her to have an even clearer understanding of what 0:25:45.125 --> 0:25:49.685 it all means. Most people seek enlightenment to escape their suffering. 0:25:50.645 --> 0:25:53.605 This is one of the key reasons why they fall 0:25:53.765 --> 0:25:59.205 victim to false gurus and meet with dangerous consequences. People 0:25:59.245 --> 0:26:03.805 want instant hirana. Everything today is I want to know 0:26:03.925 --> 0:26:06.325 over the counter kind of just a drug. Just give 0:26:06.365 --> 0:26:08.845 me a pill that will make me feel peaceful, that 0:26:08.885 --> 0:26:12.725 will make me feel instantly better. But that's addiction. That 0:26:13.045 --> 0:26:19.325 is not enlightenment. That is not spirituality. Spirituality is about 0:26:19.365 --> 0:26:22.525