WEBVTT - Dress Codes 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.920 Wait, I'm not even sure if this is on. Hello, 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:11.400 hello blank If you can hear me, ah, excellent, Well 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.920 all right, then let's begin. This is deeply human. I'm 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.200 your host, Dessa, and today I have donned the complete 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:23.239 podcasters dress uniform, the petticoat, the bandelier, the two and 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.040 a half cornered hat, the broadsword, the garter belt, the 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:29.000 whole nine yards, well ten if you count the train. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.440 The inquiry at hand, why do we care so much 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:36.200 about what other people wear? Now you might be thinking 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.519 I don't care what other people were, But imagine for 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.200 a moment that your sister shows up in a long 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.960 white dress to somebody else's wedding, or are your wedding, 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.760 Or that your first night with your new roommate reveals 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.519 that he sleeps in a softball uniform. Or let's say 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:55.720 I start telling the story of a friend who showed 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.720 up to divorce court in fishnets, a basketball jersey, and 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.480 a glowstick necklace. Wouldn't you lean in just a little 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.839 to find out what is going on with these people? 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.400 If I talked to a lot of my colleagues, let's say, well, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.280 I know nothing about fashion, you know, to one of 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.120 the first things that they'll say to establish that they're 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.560 not wasting their time on stuff that's trivial or insignificant. 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.920 I don't agree with that at all. That is Professor 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.240 Richard Thompson, Ford, and he's an intellectual who cares quite 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.119 a bit about fashion, thank you very much. He professes 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.480 at Stanford Law School. But he was driven by his 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.800 sartorial interest to write a book called Dress Codes. How 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:38.199 the Laws of Fashion made history. When tailoring really began 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.240 to develop as a skill in Western Europe, what you 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.240 see is the re sculpting of the body in order 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.920 to present like a different type of body. The cinched waste, 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.440 the dramatic skirts, the big shoulders. All of the powerful 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.760 institutions in these societies are doing this, whether it's the 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.640 church or the state. And all of these things are 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:05.600 communicating in societies where most of the populations illiterate, so 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.960 the communication is done visually. It's as though early fashion 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.440 aimed to create the impression that rich and powerful people 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:19.560 were fundamentally different sorts of creatures. Like think of those 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.239 insane standing white collars that monarchs wore in their portraits. 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.760 Queen Elizabeth the first late that kind of thing imagine 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:32.400 putting one of those on for the first time. Uh, 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:38.440 I look like a freaking cobra and this is awesome. Okay, 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.200 no rule, only I am allowed to our cobra stuff. Well, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.639 me and some of my friends. You had laws that 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.720 specified no one below the rank of a night of 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.800 the Garter may wear a certain type of silk or 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.720 a certain type of ermine, fur or tram and you 0:02:55.800 --> 0:03:00.840 talk about, like how emotional the response to this stuff was. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:04.160 In the very opening of your book, you talk about 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.240 like a fashion faux paw that has children screaming in 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.000 the streets, Women are feigning, dogs are freaking out. A 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.119 dude's arm is broken because another guy whore is still 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:21.160 cat right, Like we have feels on this One proclamation 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.320 declared that they would be guards posted at the gates 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:28.000 of the cities with a list of people according to 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.239 their social rank, to make sure that no one dressed 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:40.240 above their social condition. It's worth noting that we still 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:44.000 have fashion guards posted at some gates, like brawny bouncers 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.600 at swanky nightclubs serving side eye to your graphic t 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.120 and denying entry to anybody in athletic shoes. And dress 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.840 codes still function to distinguish social classes. Okay, we're pivoting 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.280 the microphone here to a woman named Liz Wise. She 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:03.680 works for de Brett's as an etiquet advisor. If, like me, 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.240 you are a lowly commoner, you may not be familiar 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.600 with the name to Brets. However, if you are a 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.400 member of British aristocracy, presumably listening to this podcast while 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.720 polishing your monocle, you will know it as an institution 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.480 that's been concerned with hereditary titles and minding manners since 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.320 seventeen sixty nine. Nowadays people can go to de Breads 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.240 for advice. Someone has been invited to a fancy function, say, 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.400 and they're not sure what would be appropriate to wear. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.880 Liz and her colleagues swooped to the rescue. Like batman, 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:37.680 bat meant bat people for formal wear. I asked Liz 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.359 to run down the dress codes that her clients might encounter. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:45.200 Absolutely most formal is white tie. Then there's black tie, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:49.719 which is much more common. There's also morning dress, which 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:54.360 in the UK is the dress code for weddings primarily, 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.599 but also for events like Royal ast Scott naturally, and 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.280 then going down on the hard rocky there's lounge suits. 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.880 And then there's the most difficult one of all, I think, 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:09.800 which is smart casual. I'll note that Liz deals primarily 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.279 with UK dress codes. When I asked about business casual, 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.400 Liz suggested perhaps a lounge suit would be appropriate, and 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.839 I broke it her gently that in the US crocks 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.840 and board shorts might be closer to the mark. Formal 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.839 posh parties, however, have more exacting standards, and those standards 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:33.839 hit different depending on your gender. All the dress codes 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.719 for ben are very very prescriptive, all the formal ones. 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:43.200 They comprise a very sort of detailed breakdown of tailored 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.120 garments and what the shirt should be like, what the 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.400 tie should be like, what the buttons should be like, 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.600 what the cufflinks should be like. It's absolutely codified to 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:57.360 the nth degree. Scrolling through to bread social media accounts, 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.960 the level of detail on dudes suits is pretty nuts. 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.520 So tux shirts should be made of special Marcelic cotton 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.760 because it's super stiff and can hold a mess of starch. 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.560 Bow Ties should always be tied a little bit imperfectly 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.560 to prove their hand done, just like how very important 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.480 people smudge their signatures to prove its bend in real ink. 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.760 To state the obvious, these dress codes have a very 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.440 old fashioned idea of gender, and all sorts of people 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.000 can cut a sharp figure in a suit. Shout out 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:32.400 Genomone and oh n Lister from Gentleman Jack Total Fox. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.320 But a lot of this stuff sounds like a needlessly 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:39.240 complicated Victorian costume party, relics of a long gone era 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.560 and an aristocratic worldview that has fallen away out of favor, 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.000 like our formal dress codes really doing much for us 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:51.320 these days. Historically there was an absolute assumption that everybody 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.960 had these clothes and they knew precisely went to wear them. 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.640 But of course, I think for a lot of people, 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.120 when they're presented with a very stiff formal invitation with 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.800 a dress code specified in this dad age, it can 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:08.040 be quite an oppressive thing, can't it, Because for an 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.080 awful lot of us we don't have a morning coach 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.760 or a tuxedo or whatever in our wardrobe. But I 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.120 do think you just have to interpret them as a 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:24.080 rather nice, kind of very intermittent aspirational thing. Sometimes it 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.880 is nice to just discard your everyday clothes and put 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.160 on something you would never normally wear. You're not pretending 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.560 to be somebody or not. It's just it is dressing 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:42.559 up and that's nice and now valued listener. A quick 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.760 personal aside. For most of my professional life, I've worked 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.400 as a gigging musician, something to fall back on if 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.680 the whole nerdy podcast doesn't pin up. As it happens, 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.960 I recently received an invitation to perform at a masquerade 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.920 gala fundraiser thing that specified black tie. My bandmate Abbe 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.200 and I weren't quite sure what that should entail, and so, now, 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.240 drunk on power, I'm going to rest the controls of 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.400 this podcast away from our dutiful producer, sorry Beth doors Locked, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.320 and exploit this interview for my own shallow it. I 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.280 need some advice, so I'm showing Liz a potential outfit 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:22.480 to get an expert opinion. This is one of my 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.920 classic l b ds, my little black dresses. That would 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:30.320 be absolutely fine. Yeah, but is it in any universe 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.800 acceptable that I wear that with motorcycle boots. I'm gonna 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:36.840 show you the boots. Wait, let's just open your heart, 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:42.240 open your mind. The general recommendation would be that you'd 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.679 wear it with heels, maybe something a little less clunky. 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:50.319 I mean, in a way, the way a woman interprets 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.600 black tie is to do with their character and personality, 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.640 and if they can carry it off, maybe you can 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.240 wear the motorcycle boots because you're wearing a very very 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.800 nice little black dress. But you know it's not by 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.320 the book. Put it that way. So like, as long 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:10.040 as I ride a motorcycle into the event, secondhand dress 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.840 and rented to CARDI, We've got a plan. If you 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:17.000 have one golden rule, what would it be. You'll never 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.839 ever enjoy a social event if you're physically uncomfortable. So 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.040 you know, whatever you choose to wear, just just make 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.320 sure that it fits, that you can move around in it, 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.680 that you can sit down with it. I mean, that's 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.480 the absolute goal, really, that you can make your entrance, 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:37.760 you can look great, and then you can just forget 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:48.800 about it. I'm wearing the motorcycle book. Not all of 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.719 our choices about what to wear amount of simple decisions 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.520 of personal taste or comfort. Some fashion is policed by 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.880 like actual police. Back to Richard Our, Stanford law professor, 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:01.720 For instance, there are a lot of cities in the 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:06.840 United States where you know, sagging pants are outlawed. And 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:13.360 people are arrested and fined for wearing sagging pants. In 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.400 Fort Worth, Texas, the Public Transportation Authority banned writers who 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.480 wore low slung trousers with signs that said pull them 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.959 up or find another ride. Most of us, however, are 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.199 more likely to run into a dress code as part 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.960 of our job. In two thousand four, a U. S 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.040 Court upheld the firing of a bartender from a Reno 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.720 casino because she violated their rule that end i quote 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.240 lip color must be worn at all times, and other 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.200 employees have objected to mandatory high heels or a prohibition 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.560 on men wearing long hair sidebar. Yes, we know Reno 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.960 Casino sounds like a scene from a Danny DeVito feature. 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.199 So we still have rules like that, but they're being 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.959 enforced by the private sector more than the government. As 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.520 part of the research for his book, Richards sat down 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.560 to talk and listen to high school students, because kids 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.400 are actually often subject to some of the more intense 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.240 modern dress codes. Lots of credit card rules about you know, 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.960 the skirts gotta be no more than a credit cards 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:16.720 length away from the knee, their dress codes banning yoga pants. 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.920 And the thing is that in each of these instances, 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.000 whether or not the dress code is forced can depend 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.360 on the girl's body. Two girls could show up to 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.280 homeroom wearing the exact same outfit, but only one of 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.880 them gets hit with a dress code violation. The teachers 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:35.120 would even say, well, honey, she can get away with that. 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.160 But you've got a different pot, right. So it's all 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.079 about that and just and not distracting the boys. It's 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.559 up to you not to wear something that's going to 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:48.479 be distracting to man. I first ran into that particular 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.120 edict at about eight years old when I wore a 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.440 skirt to Sunday school. And if you're not a child 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.960 of the eighties or a tennis pro, a skirt is 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.920 a hybrid garment half skirt, half shorts into the sport 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.640 and contemporary to the crimping iron. So as soon as 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.280 I arrived to class and my sea green skirt, which 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.640 fell just above my knees, the religious instructor ejected me 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.200 from the room, sent me out to the playground and 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.280 called my dad. And when Dad showed up, I was 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:20.480 on a swing, not swinging. I got kicked out. I 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:25.600 told him. He took my hand, come on, kittle. We 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.920 went back into the building together. I hadn't ever heard 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.360 my dad angry on my behalf, and it was drilling. 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.760 The instructor explained that the dress code had been clearly communicated, 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.120 we don't allow young girls to wear skirts because if 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.760 young girls wear skirts, the older girls are tempted to 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.480 wear skirts, and if the older girls wear skirts, the 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.200 older boys will be tempted to sin against them. My 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.680 dad thought this argument was hot garbage, and his response 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:57.000 included the phrase sexual hangups. We left then my head 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:01.600 held I in escorted victory march to the car. As 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.040 girls get older, however, Richard describes a sort of catch 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.480 twenty two. You either risk being branded as a temptress 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.480 or you're not done up enough to be presentable. The 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.160 dress code for women doesn't always leave a safe place 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.200 to land in the middle. Richard says that was actually 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.360 the thing that surprised him most during the course of 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:23.600 his research. I'd say, yeah, it's function is to keep 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.040 women off bound. Its function isn't to make women modest, 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.240 or to make them sexy or pleasing. It's to make 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:35.839 it so that they could never get it right. A 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.000 dress codes aren't just about what's being worn, but who's 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.520 wearing it, gender, race, class Some of our most complicated 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.360 social dynamics are sewn right in. One thing that you know, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.960 I found is that there's a lot more strict enforcement 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.600 in a lot of instances in poorer schools, in schools 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.200 that have heavily you know, black or Latino populations. On 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.880 the one hand, that's unfair because those kids are getting 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.040 sent home from school more often than you know, rich 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.400 white kids. On the other hand, you can see that 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.600 some of the school administrators are trying to make sure 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.640 that those kids know how to dress professionally and appropriately 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.400 so that they can get good jobs later. And so 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.840 it's not all malevolent. Some of it's kind of trying 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.480 to deal with the world as it is rather than 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.040 the world as it should be. But the idea that 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.480 kids from marginalized backgrounds can dress up to get ahead 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.960 is way too simple. Richard's book delves deep into the 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.400 long and complicated intersections of clothing and race relations. Richard 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.680 himself is black, and his dad actually trained as a tailor. 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.920 Alongside his college degree. People of color often learned a 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:52.040 backup trade in case racism thwarted their professional plans. Not 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.520 all that long ago, Black people in the US could 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.320 be penalized for dressing too well. After World War Two, 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.920 racist mo moobs would attack black servicemen wearing their service 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:08.320 dressed uniforms for being uppity. People were threatened by black 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.520 people wearing refined, in elegant clothing. They saw it as 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.360 an attack on white supremacy. They were angry that you 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.920 had black people who were dressed better than white people, 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:22.200 because that clothing communicated to everyone that the wearer deserved 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:26.560 respect and dignity. In the nineteen fifties and sixties, civil 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.320 rights protesters often wore their Sunday best two marches or 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.400 to lunch counter sit ins, where they could reasonably expect 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.000 to be met with every variety of indignity, if not violence, 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:42.400 police dogs, batons, and fire hoses. More recently, writers and 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.840 activists have critiqued that sort of protest dress code with 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:50.640 the term respectability politics. They argue that no one should 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:52.920 have to dress up to prove that they weren't humane 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.560 treatment and equal rights, and doing so amounts to a 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.800 concession to the mainstream oppressive culture. But Rich doesn't see 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.880 it that way at all. People are bringing their Sunday best. 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.400 That's not trying to ingratiate yourself with the power structure. 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.960 That's a statement of defiance. That's a statement of opposition. 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:23.200 It's a demand for dignity. I published a picture of 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.880 myself running in a beautiful street in London, filling the 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:32.240 wind in my hair. That is Massy Elena Jade. She's 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.440 actually she's the last person to need someone else to 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:40.840 introduce her. Okay, get hi, this is Massy. I'm from Iran. 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:45.800 I'm a journalist, I'm a campaigner, but mostly I'm a 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.680 troublemaker for my government. I'm a badass. Massey is also 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.120 something of an online phenom. She's got millions of followers, 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.880 and that photo she mentioned of her running in London 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.560 started a massive movement. And that shot, taken in two 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.960 thousand fourteen, Massey's wearing an orange jacket, jeans, a toothy smile, 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.400 and her long dark hairs like flipped up behind her, 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:12.320 still airborne as she descends from a bouncing step. When 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.600 she posted this photo, women back in Iran left heartsick comments. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.600 They were envious of the freedom the Iranian government requires 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.560 women by law to wear. His job and just a 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.320 refresher here on terms. When I say he job, it 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.640 means that you have to cover your hair in all 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.639 your body. According to shah Yah Law and Chajury is 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:40.080 more strict version of his job, it means that sometimes 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:45.479 you have to cover your face as well. Touched by 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.000 the feedback she received, Massey posted an even more daring photo. 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.199 This one had been taken in Iran, where she had 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.120 removed her her job in direct defiance of the dress code. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:18:00.320 This snapshot sparked a firestorm. Other women took similar potos 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.760 and sent them to Massey to share, and soon she 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.160 was buried in photographs. She uses these images to call 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:08.760 attention to the plight of women living under the Islamic 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.720 Republic of Iran. You've talked about the dress code as 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:17.280 the most visible symbol of oppression. Can you explain why 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:21.280 you think that it's so important to this government. Look, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.400 I'm gonna just ask a simple question. When you go 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.000 to my beautiful country, Iran, how are you gonna understand 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:33.080 that this is Islamic country through us, through women? Because 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.000 we are the one that we carry the most visible 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:43.200 symbol of Islamic republic. So basically, when Islamics take over 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.920 the regime, the first thing that they do they write 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:52.679 their ideology on our bodies. Massey, We've been talking about 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.920 the compulsory hid job policies, but obviously there are women 0:18:56.000 --> 0:19:00.320 who choose to wear the garment of their own volition. Right, Look, 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.720 I'm gonna actually make it clear that my dream is 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:08.399 to walk shoulder to shoulder with my mother, who wears 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:15.479 hitch ab in Iran, in in the West, without being 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.879 forced both of us to take it off or to 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.680 put it on. That's it. I mean, both of us 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.159 want to be our true soul. We don't want anyone 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:29.520 else to make decision over our own bodies. In Western countries, 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.080 women are sometimes harassed for wearing clothing that isn't secular enough, 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.720 and a lot of European nations have formally restricted women's 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.480 head coverings. A woman's agency is hemmed in on both 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:45.000 sides of this debate, given that so many fundamental freedoms 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.560 are restricted in Iran, like female vocalists can't sing a 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.760 solo for a mixed audience, married women can't obtain a 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:56.680 passport without their husband's permission. People sometimes ask Massey why 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.040 focus so much on the dress code part of it. 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.480 If you don't wear a job from the age of seven, 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.240 you won't be able to go to school. You won't 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.719 be able to go to university, you won't be able 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:12.200 to get any kind of like driving license, not at all. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.720 If you say no to compose your job, you won't exist. 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.480 And that is why for US women, it's not about 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.800 small piece of cloud. It's like the Berlin Wall. You know, 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.080 when we are fighting against it, it means that we 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.440 want to turn this world down, then the rest will 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.440 get easier. For Massey, freedom of dress is very much 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.320 related to freedom of thought. When I live in a 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.840 country that the regime do not allow me to choose 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.439 what I put on my head, the same regime won't 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:51.040 allow me to control what's going on inside my head. 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.040 Massey now lives in the US. In interviews, she often 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.720 wears a white and yellow flower pinned above her left ear, 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.880 and she comes off as comfortable, self assured, but her 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:08.480 personal choices have had serious ramifications, even within her own family. Yes, 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.240 my mom wears his job, but my mom is a 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.360 woman who is not forcing other women to wear hedge job. 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:20.240 My sister is my sister like was forcing me and 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.760 other women to wear a hedge job because she was 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:28.280 educated by the system that you have to take other 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.320 women to have and by force, and she sees it. 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.840 Massey had to fight to reclaim her personal freedom, first 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.199 from her family, then from society and eventually from the 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:42.159 government and others have paid for it to the regime 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:46.919 actually went after my family arrested, my brother, intrigated, my 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.160 mother brought my sister on TV to disowned me publicly. 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:54.560 You know that shows that how they're scared of our revolution. 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.399 These women who send videos to me are going in 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.919 public protesting against the post to your job. They know 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.159 about the risk, they know that this is going to 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.720 be punishable by the regime. One of the women is 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:13.119 only twenty years old, Saba. She received twenty four years 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:17.600 prison sentence, more than her age. Another woman, Yos a man, 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.119 she's only twenty two years old and she received sixteen 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:23.840 years prison sentence. And I remember the day when I 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:28.200 heard that, I felt guilty. I was like, what I'm 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.760 gonna do, I'm gonna shut down this campaign. But what 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:37.280 happened immediately their mothers joined the campaign. Their mother has 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:39.760 actually made a video on saying that now we are 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:44.040 the voice of our daughters. And to me, these women 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:47.520 are like Rosa parks Off Iran what Rosa Parks did 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:51.440 is an example for us because now we are suffering 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:55.840 from gender apartheid. When Afghanistan fell to Taliban forces in 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.800 Massey started receiving images and videos from again women too, 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.680 bearing their hair or wearing white to protest mandatory dress 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.800 codes of the new regime. Women of Iran and Afghanistan 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.080 are the same. They don't want to be victims. They 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.800 became warriors. They are not waiting for someone to go 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:18.719 and save them. They want to save themselves. When you 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:20.879 wake up in the morning and you look in the 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:24.639 mirror and you get dressed, are you doing so with 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:28.760 an awareness or a solemnity or a gratitude because of 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.679 the life that you've lived before where you didn't have 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.320 the freedom to adorn your own body. That's such an 0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:39.719 amazing question, and I'm going to be very honest with you. Um. Actually, 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.159 my husband is listening now. Every morning when I wake up, 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.160 when I see myself in the mirror, I say, oh, 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:48.840 my God, you have such a beautiful wife. Look at me. 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:58.639 I'm so beautiful. I grew up in the States relatively 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.040 free to dress as I liked and pursue a career 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:03.639 in music, But in my early days as a rapper. 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:07.080 I was so afraid of being accused of leveraging sex 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:10.639 appeal to get the job that I wore oversized men's 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.480 athletic wear on stage, like baggy hoodies, beat up sneakers, 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:17.800 and I didn't care much about fashion. A certain aloofness 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:20.199 about clothing was almost a way to signal I was 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:23.680 too busy being a serious artist. It's uh, it's sort 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:26.680 of like the humble brag of announcing, oh, I don't 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.600 have a TV. But fashion isn't something that you can 0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:32.679 opt out of the way that you can dancing with 0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:35.920 the stars. Even going naked would amount to a fashion statement. 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:40.879 Dress codes reinforce group membership, you know, like we're amish, 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:44.840 we're nurses, were straight edge, punks, were golfers. Clothing signals 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:50.760 or challenges our social identities and our status. It's powerful stuff. Man. 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:54.720 Fashion is important enough to society for governments around the 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:57.600 world to get involved. A few hundred years after Queen 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.800 Elizabeth the First proclaimed that per silk was for the 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.560 nobility alone, President Barack Obama asked young black men in 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:08.200 America to pull up their pants. We care about what 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:11.480 we wear and what others were because it's shorthand to 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.240