1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Wait, I'm not even sure if this is on. Hello, 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: hello blank If you can hear me, ah, excellent, Well 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: all right, then let's begin. This is deeply human. I'm 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: your host, Dessa, and today I have donned the complete 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: podcasters dress uniform, the petticoat, the bandelier, the two and 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: a half cornered hat, the broadsword, the garter belt, the 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: whole nine yards, well ten if you count the train. 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: The inquiry at hand, why do we care so much 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: about what other people wear? Now you might be thinking 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: I don't care what other people were, But imagine for 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: a moment that your sister shows up in a long 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: white dress to somebody else's wedding, or are your wedding, 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: Or that your first night with your new roommate reveals 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: that he sleeps in a softball uniform. Or let's say 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: I start telling the story of a friend who showed 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: up to divorce court in fishnets, a basketball jersey, and 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: a glowstick necklace. Wouldn't you lean in just a little 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: to find out what is going on with these people? 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: If I talked to a lot of my colleagues, let's say, well, 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: I know nothing about fashion, you know, to one of 21 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: the first things that they'll say to establish that they're 22 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: not wasting their time on stuff that's trivial or insignificant. 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: I don't agree with that at all. That is Professor 24 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: Richard Thompson, Ford, and he's an intellectual who cares quite 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: a bit about fashion, thank you very much. He professes 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: at Stanford Law School. But he was driven by his 27 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: sartorial interest to write a book called Dress Codes. How 28 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,199 Speaker 1: the Laws of Fashion made history. When tailoring really began 29 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: to develop as a skill in Western Europe, what you 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: see is the re sculpting of the body in order 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: to present like a different type of body. The cinched waste, 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: the dramatic skirts, the big shoulders. All of the powerful 33 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: institutions in these societies are doing this, whether it's the 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: church or the state. And all of these things are 35 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: communicating in societies where most of the populations illiterate, so 36 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: the communication is done visually. It's as though early fashion 37 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: aimed to create the impression that rich and powerful people 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: were fundamentally different sorts of creatures. Like think of those 39 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: insane standing white collars that monarchs wore in their portraits. 40 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth the first late that kind of thing imagine 41 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: putting one of those on for the first time. Uh, 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: I look like a freaking cobra and this is awesome. Okay, 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: no rule, only I am allowed to our cobra stuff. Well, 44 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: me and some of my friends. You had laws that 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: specified no one below the rank of a night of 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: the Garter may wear a certain type of silk or 47 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: a certain type of ermine, fur or tram and you 48 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: talk about, like how emotional the response to this stuff was. 49 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: In the very opening of your book, you talk about 50 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: like a fashion faux paw that has children screaming in 51 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: the streets, Women are feigning, dogs are freaking out. A 52 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 1: dude's arm is broken because another guy whore is still 53 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: cat right, Like we have feels on this One proclamation 54 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: declared that they would be guards posted at the gates 55 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: of the cities with a list of people according to 56 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: their social rank, to make sure that no one dressed 57 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: above their social condition. It's worth noting that we still 58 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: have fashion guards posted at some gates, like brawny bouncers 59 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: at swanky nightclubs serving side eye to your graphic t 60 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: and denying entry to anybody in athletic shoes. And dress 61 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: codes still function to distinguish social classes. Okay, we're pivoting 62 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: the microphone here to a woman named Liz Wise. She 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: works for de Brett's as an etiquet advisor. If, like me, 64 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: you are a lowly commoner, you may not be familiar 65 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: with the name to Brets. However, if you are a 66 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: member of British aristocracy, presumably listening to this podcast while 67 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: polishing your monocle, you will know it as an institution 68 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: that's been concerned with hereditary titles and minding manners since 69 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: seventeen sixty nine. Nowadays people can go to de Breads 70 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: for advice. Someone has been invited to a fancy function, say, 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: and they're not sure what would be appropriate to wear. 72 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: Liz and her colleagues swooped to the rescue. Like batman, 73 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: bat meant bat people for formal wear. I asked Liz 74 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: to run down the dress codes that her clients might encounter. 75 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely most formal is white tie. Then there's black tie, 76 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: which is much more common. There's also morning dress, which 77 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: in the UK is the dress code for weddings primarily, 78 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: but also for events like Royal ast Scott naturally, and 79 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: then going down on the hard rocky there's lounge suits. 80 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: And then there's the most difficult one of all, I think, 81 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: which is smart casual. I'll note that Liz deals primarily 82 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: with UK dress codes. When I asked about business casual, 83 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: Liz suggested perhaps a lounge suit would be appropriate, and 84 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: I broke it her gently that in the US crocks 85 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: and board shorts might be closer to the mark. Formal 86 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: posh parties, however, have more exacting standards, and those standards 87 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: hit different depending on your gender. All the dress codes 88 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: for ben are very very prescriptive, all the formal ones. 89 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: They comprise a very sort of detailed breakdown of tailored 90 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: garments and what the shirt should be like, what the 91 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: tie should be like, what the buttons should be like, 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: what the cufflinks should be like. It's absolutely codified to 93 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: the nth degree. Scrolling through to bread social media accounts, 94 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: the level of detail on dudes suits is pretty nuts. 95 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: So tux shirts should be made of special Marcelic cotton 96 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: because it's super stiff and can hold a mess of starch. 97 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: Bow Ties should always be tied a little bit imperfectly 98 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: to prove their hand done, just like how very important 99 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: people smudge their signatures to prove its bend in real ink. 100 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: To state the obvious, these dress codes have a very 101 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: old fashioned idea of gender, and all sorts of people 102 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: can cut a sharp figure in a suit. Shout out 103 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: Genomone and oh n Lister from Gentleman Jack Total Fox. 104 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: But a lot of this stuff sounds like a needlessly 105 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: complicated Victorian costume party, relics of a long gone era 106 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: and an aristocratic worldview that has fallen away out of favor, 107 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: like our formal dress codes really doing much for us 108 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: these days. Historically there was an absolute assumption that everybody 109 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: had these clothes and they knew precisely went to wear them. 110 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: But of course, I think for a lot of people, 111 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: when they're presented with a very stiff formal invitation with 112 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: a dress code specified in this dad age, it can 113 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: be quite an oppressive thing, can't it, Because for an 114 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: awful lot of us we don't have a morning coach 115 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: or a tuxedo or whatever in our wardrobe. But I 116 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: do think you just have to interpret them as a 117 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: rather nice, kind of very intermittent aspirational thing. Sometimes it 118 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: is nice to just discard your everyday clothes and put 119 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: on something you would never normally wear. You're not pretending 120 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: to be somebody or not. It's just it is dressing 121 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:42,559 Speaker 1: up and that's nice and now valued listener. A quick 122 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: personal aside. For most of my professional life, I've worked 123 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: as a gigging musician, something to fall back on if 124 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: the whole nerdy podcast doesn't pin up. As it happens, 125 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: I recently received an invitation to perform at a masquerade 126 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: gala fundraiser thing that specified black tie. My bandmate Abbe 127 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: and I weren't quite sure what that should entail, and so, now, 128 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: drunk on power, I'm going to rest the controls of 129 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: this podcast away from our dutiful producer, sorry Beth doors Locked, 130 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: and exploit this interview for my own shallow it. I 131 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: need some advice, so I'm showing Liz a potential outfit 132 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: to get an expert opinion. This is one of my 133 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: classic l b ds, my little black dresses. That would 134 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: be absolutely fine. Yeah, but is it in any universe 135 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: acceptable that I wear that with motorcycle boots. I'm gonna 136 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: show you the boots. Wait, let's just open your heart, 137 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: open your mind. The general recommendation would be that you'd 138 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: wear it with heels, maybe something a little less clunky. 139 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, the way a woman interprets 140 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: black tie is to do with their character and personality, 141 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: and if they can carry it off, maybe you can 142 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: wear the motorcycle boots because you're wearing a very very 143 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: nice little black dress. But you know it's not by 144 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: the book. Put it that way. So like, as long 145 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: as I ride a motorcycle into the event, secondhand dress 146 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: and rented to CARDI, We've got a plan. If you 147 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: have one golden rule, what would it be. You'll never 148 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: ever enjoy a social event if you're physically uncomfortable. So 149 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, whatever you choose to wear, just just make 150 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: sure that it fits, that you can move around in it, 151 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: that you can sit down with it. I mean, that's 152 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: the absolute goal, really, that you can make your entrance, 153 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: you can look great, and then you can just forget 154 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: about it. I'm wearing the motorcycle book. Not all of 155 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 1: our choices about what to wear amount of simple decisions 156 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: of personal taste or comfort. Some fashion is policed by 157 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: like actual police. Back to Richard Our, Stanford law professor, 158 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: For instance, there are a lot of cities in the 159 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: United States where you know, sagging pants are outlawed. And 160 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: people are arrested and fined for wearing sagging pants. In 161 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: Fort Worth, Texas, the Public Transportation Authority banned writers who 162 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: wore low slung trousers with signs that said pull them 163 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: up or find another ride. Most of us, however, are 164 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: more likely to run into a dress code as part 165 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: of our job. In two thousand four, a U. S 166 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: Court upheld the firing of a bartender from a Reno 167 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: casino because she violated their rule that end i quote 168 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: lip color must be worn at all times, and other 169 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: employees have objected to mandatory high heels or a prohibition 170 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: on men wearing long hair sidebar. Yes, we know Reno 171 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: Casino sounds like a scene from a Danny DeVito feature. 172 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: So we still have rules like that, but they're being 173 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: enforced by the private sector more than the government. As 174 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: part of the research for his book, Richards sat down 175 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: to talk and listen to high school students, because kids 176 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: are actually often subject to some of the more intense 177 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: modern dress codes. Lots of credit card rules about you know, 178 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: the skirts gotta be no more than a credit cards 179 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: length away from the knee, their dress codes banning yoga pants. 180 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: And the thing is that in each of these instances, 181 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: whether or not the dress code is forced can depend 182 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: on the girl's body. Two girls could show up to 183 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: homeroom wearing the exact same outfit, but only one of 184 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: them gets hit with a dress code violation. The teachers 185 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: would even say, well, honey, she can get away with that. 186 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: But you've got a different pot, right. So it's all 187 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: about that and just and not distracting the boys. It's 188 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: up to you not to wear something that's going to 189 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,479 Speaker 1: be distracting to man. I first ran into that particular 190 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: edict at about eight years old when I wore a 191 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: skirt to Sunday school. And if you're not a child 192 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: of the eighties or a tennis pro, a skirt is 193 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: a hybrid garment half skirt, half shorts into the sport 194 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: and contemporary to the crimping iron. So as soon as 195 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: I arrived to class and my sea green skirt, which 196 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: fell just above my knees, the religious instructor ejected me 197 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: from the room, sent me out to the playground and 198 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: called my dad. And when Dad showed up, I was 199 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: on a swing, not swinging. I got kicked out. I 200 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: told him. He took my hand, come on, kittle. We 201 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: went back into the building together. I hadn't ever heard 202 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: my dad angry on my behalf, and it was drilling. 203 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: The instructor explained that the dress code had been clearly communicated, 204 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: we don't allow young girls to wear skirts because if 205 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: young girls wear skirts, the older girls are tempted to 206 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: wear skirts, and if the older girls wear skirts, the 207 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: older boys will be tempted to sin against them. My 208 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: dad thought this argument was hot garbage, and his response 209 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: included the phrase sexual hangups. We left then my head 210 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: held I in escorted victory march to the car. As 211 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: girls get older, however, Richard describes a sort of catch 212 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: twenty two. You either risk being branded as a temptress 213 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: or you're not done up enough to be presentable. The 214 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: dress code for women doesn't always leave a safe place 215 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: to land in the middle. Richard says that was actually 216 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: the thing that surprised him most during the course of 217 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: his research. I'd say, yeah, it's function is to keep 218 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: women off bound. Its function isn't to make women modest, 219 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: or to make them sexy or pleasing. It's to make 220 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: it so that they could never get it right. A 221 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: dress codes aren't just about what's being worn, but who's 222 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: wearing it, gender, race, class Some of our most complicated 223 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: social dynamics are sewn right in. One thing that you know, 224 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: I found is that there's a lot more strict enforcement 225 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of instances in poorer schools, in schools 226 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: that have heavily you know, black or Latino populations. On 227 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: the one hand, that's unfair because those kids are getting 228 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: sent home from school more often than you know, rich 229 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: white kids. On the other hand, you can see that 230 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: some of the school administrators are trying to make sure 231 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: that those kids know how to dress professionally and appropriately 232 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: so that they can get good jobs later. And so 233 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: it's not all malevolent. Some of it's kind of trying 234 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: to deal with the world as it is rather than 235 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: the world as it should be. But the idea that 236 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: kids from marginalized backgrounds can dress up to get ahead 237 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: is way too simple. Richard's book delves deep into the 238 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: long and complicated intersections of clothing and race relations. Richard 239 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: himself is black, and his dad actually trained as a tailor. 240 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: Alongside his college degree. People of color often learned a 241 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: backup trade in case racism thwarted their professional plans. Not 242 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: all that long ago, Black people in the US could 243 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: be penalized for dressing too well. After World War Two, 244 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: racist mo moobs would attack black servicemen wearing their service 245 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: dressed uniforms for being uppity. People were threatened by black 246 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: people wearing refined, in elegant clothing. They saw it as 247 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: an attack on white supremacy. They were angry that you 248 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: had black people who were dressed better than white people, 249 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: because that clothing communicated to everyone that the wearer deserved 250 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: respect and dignity. In the nineteen fifties and sixties, civil 251 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: rights protesters often wore their Sunday best two marches or 252 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: to lunch counter sit ins, where they could reasonably expect 253 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: to be met with every variety of indignity, if not violence, 254 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: police dogs, batons, and fire hoses. More recently, writers and 255 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: activists have critiqued that sort of protest dress code with 256 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: the term respectability politics. They argue that no one should 257 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: have to dress up to prove that they weren't humane 258 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: treatment and equal rights, and doing so amounts to a 259 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: concession to the mainstream oppressive culture. But Rich doesn't see 260 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: it that way at all. People are bringing their Sunday best. 261 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: That's not trying to ingratiate yourself with the power structure. 262 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: That's a statement of defiance. That's a statement of opposition. 263 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: It's a demand for dignity. I published a picture of 264 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: myself running in a beautiful street in London, filling the 265 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: wind in my hair. That is Massy Elena Jade. She's 266 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: actually she's the last person to need someone else to 267 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: introduce her. Okay, get hi, this is Massy. I'm from Iran. 268 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist, I'm a campaigner, but mostly I'm a 269 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: troublemaker for my government. I'm a badass. Massey is also 270 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: something of an online phenom. She's got millions of followers, 271 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: and that photo she mentioned of her running in London 272 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: started a massive movement. And that shot, taken in two 273 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, Massey's wearing an orange jacket, jeans, a toothy smile, 274 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: and her long dark hairs like flipped up behind her, 275 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: still airborne as she descends from a bouncing step. When 276 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: she posted this photo, women back in Iran left heartsick comments. 277 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: They were envious of the freedom the Iranian government requires 278 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: women by law to wear. His job and just a 279 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: refresher here on terms. When I say he job, it 280 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: means that you have to cover your hair in all 281 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: your body. According to shah Yah Law and Chajury is 282 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: more strict version of his job, it means that sometimes 283 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: you have to cover your face as well. Touched by 284 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: the feedback she received, Massey posted an even more daring photo. 285 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: This one had been taken in Iran, where she had 286 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: removed her her job in direct defiance of the dress code. 287 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: This snapshot sparked a firestorm. Other women took similar potos 288 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: and sent them to Massey to share, and soon she 289 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: was buried in photographs. She uses these images to call 290 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: attention to the plight of women living under the Islamic 291 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: Republic of Iran. You've talked about the dress code as 292 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: the most visible symbol of oppression. Can you explain why 293 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: you think that it's so important to this government. Look, 294 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna just ask a simple question. When you go 295 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: to my beautiful country, Iran, how are you gonna understand 296 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: that this is Islamic country through us, through women? Because 297 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: we are the one that we carry the most visible 298 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: symbol of Islamic republic. So basically, when Islamics take over 299 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: the regime, the first thing that they do they write 300 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: their ideology on our bodies. Massey, We've been talking about 301 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: the compulsory hid job policies, but obviously there are women 302 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: who choose to wear the garment of their own volition. Right, Look, 303 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna actually make it clear that my dream is 304 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: to walk shoulder to shoulder with my mother, who wears 305 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: hitch ab in Iran, in in the West, without being 306 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: forced both of us to take it off or to 307 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: put it on. That's it. I mean, both of us 308 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: want to be our true soul. We don't want anyone 309 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: else to make decision over our own bodies. In Western countries, 310 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: women are sometimes harassed for wearing clothing that isn't secular enough, 311 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: and a lot of European nations have formally restricted women's 312 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: head coverings. A woman's agency is hemmed in on both 313 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: sides of this debate, given that so many fundamental freedoms 314 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: are restricted in Iran, like female vocalists can't sing a 315 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: solo for a mixed audience, married women can't obtain a 316 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: passport without their husband's permission. People sometimes ask Massey why 317 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: focus so much on the dress code part of it. 318 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: If you don't wear a job from the age of seven, 319 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: you won't be able to go to school. You won't 320 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,719 Speaker 1: be able to go to university, you won't be able 321 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: to get any kind of like driving license, not at all. 322 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: If you say no to compose your job, you won't exist. 323 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: And that is why for US women, it's not about 324 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: small piece of cloud. It's like the Berlin Wall. You know, 325 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: when we are fighting against it, it means that we 326 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: want to turn this world down, then the rest will 327 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: get easier. For Massey, freedom of dress is very much 328 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: related to freedom of thought. When I live in a 329 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: country that the regime do not allow me to choose 330 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: what I put on my head, the same regime won't 331 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: allow me to control what's going on inside my head. 332 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: Massey now lives in the US. In interviews, she often 333 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: wears a white and yellow flower pinned above her left ear, 334 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: and she comes off as comfortable, self assured, but her 335 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: personal choices have had serious ramifications, even within her own family. Yes, 336 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: my mom wears his job, but my mom is a 337 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: woman who is not forcing other women to wear hedge job. 338 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: My sister is my sister like was forcing me and 339 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: other women to wear a hedge job because she was 340 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: educated by the system that you have to take other 341 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: women to have and by force, and she sees it. 342 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: Massey had to fight to reclaim her personal freedom, first 343 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: from her family, then from society and eventually from the 344 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: government and others have paid for it to the regime 345 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 1: actually went after my family arrested, my brother, intrigated, my 346 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: mother brought my sister on TV to disowned me publicly. 347 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: You know that shows that how they're scared of our revolution. 348 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: These women who send videos to me are going in 349 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: public protesting against the post to your job. They know 350 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: about the risk, they know that this is going to 351 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: be punishable by the regime. One of the women is 352 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: only twenty years old, Saba. She received twenty four years 353 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: prison sentence, more than her age. Another woman, Yos a man, 354 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: she's only twenty two years old and she received sixteen 355 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: years prison sentence. And I remember the day when I 356 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: heard that, I felt guilty. I was like, what I'm 357 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: gonna do, I'm gonna shut down this campaign. But what 358 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: happened immediately their mothers joined the campaign. Their mother has 359 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: actually made a video on saying that now we are 360 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: the voice of our daughters. And to me, these women 361 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: are like Rosa parks Off Iran what Rosa Parks did 362 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: is an example for us because now we are suffering 363 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: from gender apartheid. When Afghanistan fell to Taliban forces in 364 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: Massey started receiving images and videos from again women too, 365 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: bearing their hair or wearing white to protest mandatory dress 366 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: codes of the new regime. Women of Iran and Afghanistan 367 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: are the same. They don't want to be victims. They 368 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: became warriors. They are not waiting for someone to go 369 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: and save them. They want to save themselves. When you 370 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and you look in the 371 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: mirror and you get dressed, are you doing so with 372 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: an awareness or a solemnity or a gratitude because of 373 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: the life that you've lived before where you didn't have 374 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: the freedom to adorn your own body. That's such an 375 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 1: amazing question, and I'm going to be very honest with you. Um. Actually, 376 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: my husband is listening now. Every morning when I wake up, 377 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: when I see myself in the mirror, I say, oh, 378 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: my God, you have such a beautiful wife. Look at me. 379 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: I'm so beautiful. I grew up in the States relatively 380 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: free to dress as I liked and pursue a career 381 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: in music, But in my early days as a rapper. 382 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: I was so afraid of being accused of leveraging sex 383 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: appeal to get the job that I wore oversized men's 384 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: athletic wear on stage, like baggy hoodies, beat up sneakers, 385 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: and I didn't care much about fashion. A certain aloofness 386 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: about clothing was almost a way to signal I was 387 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: too busy being a serious artist. It's uh, it's sort 388 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: of like the humble brag of announcing, oh, I don't 389 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: have a TV. But fashion isn't something that you can 390 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: opt out of the way that you can dancing with 391 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: the stars. Even going naked would amount to a fashion statement. 392 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: Dress codes reinforce group membership, you know, like we're amish, 393 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: we're nurses, were straight edge, punks, were golfers. Clothing signals 394 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: or challenges our social identities and our status. It's powerful stuff. Man. 395 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: Fashion is important enough to society for governments around the 396 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: world to get involved. A few hundred years after Queen 397 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First proclaimed that per silk was for the 398 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: nobility alone, President Barack Obama asked young black men in 399 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: America to pull up their pants. We care about what 400 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: we wear and what others were because it's shorthand to 401 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: understand how we relate to one another. And if there's 402 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: one thing that remains endlessly, desperately fascinating to humans, it 403 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: is other humans. All right, Well, I change out of 404 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: my podcast finery Man Bandaliers is itchy. Richard was kind 405 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: enough to indulge me in a little lightning round on 406 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: his own personal style. Do you own crocs? Crocs? No? No? 407 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: What do you think about adults in onesies? No? No, nope, 408 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: unless it's Sean Connery and gold figure suits with tennis shoes. Yes, 409 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: but I don't think you mean that at all. Camouflage 410 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: in urban environments not for me and secretly not for 411 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: anyone else. Deeply Human is a BBC World Service in 412 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: American public media co production with I Heart Media, and 413 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: it's hosted by Mesa. Find me online at Dessa on 414 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: Instagram and Dessa Darling on Twitter. See you next cast. 415 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: A crowd of people can feel electric. Everybody plugged into 416 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: some shared circuit. Feelings are amplified, Voices rise together, body 417 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: movement sync up Next time on deeply Human. Why do 418 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: crowds move you