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Speaker 1: How technology makes the current form of government obsolete. Now,

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Speaker 1: I just finished reading an amazing book called The Revolt

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Speaker 1: of the Public, which goes back through history, which you

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Speaker 1: know I love, talking about how technology changes the way

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Speaker 1: we communicate and act, and it goes to explain how

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Speaker 1: all the problems, well many of the problems that we

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Speaker 1: see today, specifically the problems with the loss of trust

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Speaker 1: of institutions and the way that this top down control works,

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Speaker 1: and of course the way that the economic model is

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Speaker 1: mimicking the complex system of information. I sat down with

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Speaker 1: the author of the book for an awesome conversation. Martin

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Speaker 1: Gurry joins me, and we are going to discuss the

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Speaker 1: book itself, what were the fourth and fifth wave of communication,

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Speaker 1: How the parabolic increase and the rise of information is

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Speaker 1: making the current forms of government obsolete. We go through

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Speaker 1: recent history to look at revolutions that happened from twenty

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Speaker 1: eleven forward, Occupy Wall Street, and so much more to

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Speaker 1: break this down so you can understand exactly what's going on.

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Speaker 1: It'll give you a framework to figure out where we're

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Speaker 1: going and how you should be managing your life. And

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Speaker 1: this is something that you should know specifically with the

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Speaker 1: restrict Act that's going into place right now, is ramping

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Speaker 1: up this war, this battle because government is not compatible

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Speaker 1: with what's going on anyway. It was an awesome conversation

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Speaker 1: with Martin Gurry, with the author of this book. We

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Speaker 1: do spend a little bit of time kind of setting

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Speaker 1: up the book before we really dive into the revolutions.

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Speaker 1: So check out the time stamps down below if you

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Speaker 1: want to jump ahead, but I'd encourage you to listen

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Speaker 1: to the whole thing with that. Let's jump right in,

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Speaker 1: all right, Martin, thanks so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to dig in and talk to you about

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Speaker 1: your book and learn so much. So thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: My pleasure. Mark.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, I just read this book here, The Revolt

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Speaker 1: of the Public, and you know I love books like this.

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Speaker 1: It was a big, thick book. I had a lot

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Speaker 1: of good information, a lot of stuff that I have

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Speaker 1: been seeing, a lot of stuff I have been saying.

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Speaker 1: But man, you really dug in deep to it. I guess,

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Speaker 1: maybe just give us the quick thesis of the book

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Speaker 1: before we start digging into what it's about. From your words,

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the origin of the book goes way back

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Speaker 2: when I was still in CIA, I was an analyst

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Speaker 2: of global media, and I and a number of people

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Speaker 2: with me noticed this just radical transformation of the information sphere.

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Speaker 2: Once that digital tsunami of information hit and we noticed

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Speaker 2: further were behind that, there was this political turbulence. Now

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Speaker 2: it seems very naive now, but we thought, we asked ourselves,

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Speaker 2: what's the connection. Right, we have the Internet, which is

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Speaker 2: kind of like this fun communications thing, and you have

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Speaker 2: politics over here. Right. And now, of course we know

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Speaker 2: the mutual influence is powerful, determinative, but at the time

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Speaker 2: none of us do that. So after I left government,

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Speaker 2: I dedicated myself to research of that, and it became

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Speaker 2: clear to me that essentially the profound transformation in the

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Speaker 2: structure of information was changing completely the institutional environment in

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Speaker 2: which we had evolved from the twentieth century underward, institutions

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Speaker 2: that were all shaped by the twentieth century ideal of

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Speaker 2: top down. I talked, you listen, there's no talking back

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Speaker 2: from the public, and that a lot of the categories

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Speaker 2: in politics, such as liberal and conservative and the right

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Speaker 2: and left, which go back one hundred and fifty to

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Speaker 2: two hundred years, really had lost a lot of meaning

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Speaker 2: and what I saw was that there was an eruption

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Speaker 2: leaping into the center stage as a political actor of

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Speaker 2: the network public, people who had suddenly gained voice because

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Speaker 2: of their ability to link up to the digital platforms,

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Speaker 2: and that almost every political conflict in the world today,

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Speaker 2: some exceptions in some countries, almost everyone really maps down

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Speaker 2: to the network public against the elites who run those

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Speaker 2: institutions that were shaped in the twentieth century, who initially

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Speaker 2: had no understanding what was happening. After certain events like

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Speaker 2: Trump and Brexit, understood what was happening, but did not

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Speaker 2: like it and wanted it to stop happening. So almost

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Speaker 2: every conflict you have, and every eruption of change and

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Speaker 2: around the world, around the world, can be mapped to

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Speaker 2: this profound, profound through tectonic collision between the public and

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Speaker 2: the elites.

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Speaker 1: I guess since the beginning of time, that's how it's been,

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Speaker 1: the public verse, since the beginning of time, that's what

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Speaker 1: it's been, right, the public versus the elites.

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Speaker 2: And how not at all, not at all, I think.

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Speaker 2: I think in the olden days, the public just kind

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Speaker 2: of knuckled its forehead and said yes, sir.

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Speaker 1: But it was still the elites trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: how they could control the masses. Uh, there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a part in the Bible in Exodus where Pharaoh looks

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Speaker 1: out over all the Israelites in Egypt and said, they

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Speaker 1: outnumber us. What will we do? And they said, here's

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Speaker 1: what we'll do. Let's work them so hard that they'll

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Speaker 1: never have a chance to uprise again. So, I mean

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Speaker 1: that was written thousands of thousands of years ago, so

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Speaker 1: it's maybe always been a way that they try to

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Speaker 1: kind of somehow manage the people.

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Speaker 2: Only insert the qualification that you can be an elite

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Speaker 2: in an institution that has legitimacy, and whether that you

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Speaker 2: should have it or not are that's a separate conversation.

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Speaker 2: But you have legitimacy, meaning you have authority, meaning that

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Speaker 2: I can tell you what to do and you will

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Speaker 2: probably do it without me having to point a gunna,

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Speaker 2: do you right? For example? And there are elites who

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Speaker 2: need to point a gunna or you're not going to

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Speaker 2: do it. And we're slowly coming to the point where

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Speaker 2: if the elites don't have a whole lot of compulsion,

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Speaker 2: nobody's going to listen to them. Yeah, you can see

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Speaker 2: that you saw it with COVID for example.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely a topic we're going to dive into.

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Speaker 1: And you're right, you made that point very clear in

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Speaker 1: your book, kind of breaking down the trust in these institutions.

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Speaker 1: I want to come back to that. But looking back

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Speaker 1: throughout history, we see that it's always some piece of

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Speaker 1: technological innovation that seems to kind of change the way

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Speaker 1: that we communicate and organize. A point that I had

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Speaker 1: talked a lot a lot about and you talked about

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Speaker 1: as well, was about five hundred years ago we had

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Speaker 1: the Protestant Reformation that really seemed to have been driven

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Speaker 1: by a catalyst about seventy years previous, which was the

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Speaker 1: printing press, and sort of this dissemination of information that

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Speaker 1: then led to this I think you would call it

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Speaker 1: like this democratic access to information that changed so sort

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Speaker 1: of like that times like a thousand or times a million.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't even know. I actually think the printing

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Speaker 2: press was probably the most disruptive innovation in terms of

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Speaker 2: information change. I mean, it's still early days with the internet, right,

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Speaker 2: so we may get there and surpass that one, but no, no,

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Speaker 2: I think I think and it's instructive to go back

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Speaker 2: to that time because you know it. The results were brutal.

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Speaker 2: The results, the consequences, the immediate consequences of the printing

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Speaker 2: press were brutal. If you went to the Thirty Years War,

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Speaker 2: which was kind of an offshoot of their Reformation, in which,

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Speaker 2: for example, if you know, if you went to church

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Speaker 2: and the church next door had three different words than

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Speaker 2: what your hymnal did or creed had, you now had

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Speaker 2: those words in your book. You knew them there they were,

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Speaker 2: they had So the other guy who didn't have those

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Speaker 2: words or who had different words, they had to die.

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Speaker 2: The Thirty Years War was the bloodiest war in the

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Speaker 2: history of Europe. And if you had gone there and

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Speaker 2: asked those people what do you think of the printing press,

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Speaker 2: that would have said it's the most horrible invention ever,

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Speaker 2: take it back, destroy it. Well, today we know it

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Speaker 2: was probably the most liberating, not only because of the Reformation,

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Speaker 2: but because of the scientific revolution. You could not have

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Speaker 2: had that with manuscripts. And then the French and American

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Speaker 2: revolutions that brought democracy to the world. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And if we frame that up in context of

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Speaker 1: kind of what the book is and how we want

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Speaker 1: to kind of move forward, it was basically the state,

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Speaker 1: the church and state. At the time, we're basically controlling

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Speaker 1: the information, telling the people what the Bible said, but

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Speaker 1: they had no access to it. But once it was democratized,

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Speaker 1: once the people were able to get it and read

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Speaker 1: it for themselves, they said, wait a minute, you've been

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Speaker 1: lying to us whole time. And now even though the

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Speaker 1: Church labeled them heretics and heresy and killed them, if

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Speaker 1: they spoke out about it, it didn't matter. I mean,

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Speaker 1: would that be a right way to frame true?

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Speaker 2: I think the parallel is good in many different ways, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean number one, yes, the church and you know,

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Speaker 2: you get inquisitions, right, and I mean we are not

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Speaker 2: at the thirty years War level. We're not killing each other.

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Speaker 2: But there are the minor, not not real inquisitions. But

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Speaker 2: but I mean, you're not gonna get burned at the stake,

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Speaker 2: but you might lose your job, you might get you know,

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Speaker 2: all the platformed called out by digital mobs. You your

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Speaker 2: reputation could be tord to shreds overnight by saying the

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Speaker 2: wrong words, right, So that's one thing. The other one

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Speaker 2: is that once you start that process though, of well,

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Speaker 2: I am breaking off from the Church and the next

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Speaker 2: thing that happens is some group inside you. Your group says, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm breaking off from you, and another group says I'm

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Speaker 2: breaking up from that, and you get this kind of

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Speaker 2: process of specialization where at the end you arrive at

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Speaker 2: almost a chaos and you have to work out at

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Speaker 2: what point do you put a boundary around that and

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Speaker 2: try to make that thing work? Right. The Reformation basically

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Speaker 2: exhausted itself in the Thirty Years War and essentially resulted

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Speaker 2: in our system of nation states, the nation states in

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Speaker 2: both order that religious groups that sort of deserred the

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Speaker 2: way in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: And if you go back before that, it was the

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Speaker 1: religious groups that recreated the social order. Right, So we

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Speaker 1: kind of had this decentralized kind of world, and the

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Speaker 1: churches kind of came into power by bringing order, right.

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Speaker 1: They brought order through chivalry and acts of kindness, and

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Speaker 1: then they also rebuilt public infrastructure, which then kind of

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Speaker 1: created that centralization. Then the printing press tore that apart,

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Speaker 1: and then the nation and states kind of brought it

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Speaker 1: back together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and there were different you know that the

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Speaker 2: nation state at a certain point, particularly when it got

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Speaker 2: to the industrial state and the industrial democratic states like

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Speaker 2: the United States, say in the nineteenth century, then you

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Speaker 2: had to you have to somehow provide for the fact

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Speaker 2: that you know, just printing books or having access to

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Speaker 2: a printing press, which only a few people could have,

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Speaker 2: was not really enough. So then mass media came into

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Speaker 2: being as a way of bringing, you know, bringing into

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Speaker 2: the fold the tens of millions of citizens who had

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Speaker 2: essentially entered history. They had become educated, they had become

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Speaker 2: relatively affluent, they understood the world, but it had no

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Speaker 2: access to the current information. And so you had the

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Speaker 2: mass media movement that you know, I'm old enough, that

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Speaker 2: was the world I was born into.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the mass media where you had had a few

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Speaker 1: new sources to choose from it. We'll get to that now.

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Speaker 1: You talked about in the book. A couple of things

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Speaker 1: that you talked about the book was one was sort

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Speaker 1: of like this fourth wave and then fifth wave of information.

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Speaker 1: I do want to go back to just kind of

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Speaker 1: one thing that you said, just kind of for everybody,

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Speaker 1: kind of reiterate this since I've read the book. You

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Speaker 1: talked about in the book, and you have a chart

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Speaker 1: to illustrate this, and maybe this was the catalyst for

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Speaker 1: you writing the book. That you said in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one, all of a sudden you realize that more

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Speaker 1: information was created in two thousand and one than all

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Speaker 1: of humanity before, and then double that amount happened in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two. And when you realize that, you

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Speaker 1: realize that everything was going to be different. So that's

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Speaker 1: the key piece, and I think it's super powerful. Actually

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Speaker 1: just tweeted that out earlier today as I was preparing

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Speaker 1: for this. That's a massive movement, and I could only

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Speaker 1: imagine it must be going parabolic for me, especially now.

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Speaker 2: Exactly that's exactly right. And you have to add to

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Speaker 2: that that are institutions, and by that I mean not

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Speaker 2: just government, but political part but corporations, the media, the academia,

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Speaker 2: all these essentially nine twentieth century institutions were developed with

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Speaker 2: a small trickle of information in mind, most of which

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Speaker 2: they control, and that the gigantic doubling upon doubling up

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Speaker 2: on doubling of information has just battered them away. The

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Speaker 2: institutions are in a state of absolute prostration because they

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Speaker 2: weren't set up for this. They were not set up

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Speaker 2: for the world that we live in today. They are

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Speaker 2: like the dinosaurs. So the media are coming down. They're

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Speaker 2: just maladapted. They were big in the twentieth century, they

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Speaker 2: are looking at going extinct in the twenty first. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So what was the fourth wave and then what's the

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Speaker 1: fifth wave?

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Speaker 2: Right? Let me go quickly through them all so that

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Speaker 2: the whole thing makes sense. The first wave first was

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Speaker 2: the invention of writing, which required sort of like a

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Speaker 2: priestly or each wave of information, each structure of information

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Speaker 2: accommodates or delivers a certain political and social system. So

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Speaker 2: you have the the invention of writing. You need a

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Speaker 2: mandarin or a priestly cast like in Egypt to do

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Speaker 2: this very elaborate system of writing with thousands of symbols.

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Speaker 2: The alphabet is the second wave. You could not have

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Speaker 2: had the classic republics of say Rome and Athens without

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Speaker 2: an alphabet. The third one we just spoke about is

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Speaker 2: the printing press. The most is eruptive ball in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: The fourth was mass media. I also mentioned that. And

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Speaker 2: then the fifth is where we are today. You're right

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and one. Two thousand and one doubled

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Speaker 2: all previous information in history. Two thousand and two doubled

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one, And I'm not sure that it's

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent doubling, but it has continued. Parabolic is

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Speaker 2: a good word.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, so when you look at it

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Speaker 1: from that zoomed out frame, and then you realize that

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Speaker 1: technology changed the way that we communicate, which then change

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Speaker 1: the way that we organize, and so then the state

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Speaker 1: also changes how it organizes and manages us. And so

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Speaker 1: one of the points that you made in the book

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Speaker 1: was that really through the Industrial Age, it kind of

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Speaker 1: brought us from the farms into the cities and the factories,

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Speaker 1: and then we started having this kind of mass movement

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Speaker 1: of really Henry Ford kind of created this assembly line

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Speaker 1: and it was a way to control the masses and

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Speaker 1: kind of equalize the masses. And then you talked about

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Speaker 1: how then we needed sort of like a governance system

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Speaker 1: and an information system on top of that to kind

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Speaker 1: of manage that was that, right? Can you explain that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty close. I mean, you're talking about the

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Speaker 2: Industrial Age. Industrial age was the profit of the Industrial

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Speaker 2: Age was this guy who's sort of been forgotten but

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Speaker 2: was very important as important still Ferrick Taylor, who believed

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Speaker 2: that he did all kinds of time and motion studies

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Speaker 2: and essentially treated workers like like pieces of equipment right

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Speaker 2: for for the sake of efficiency. So everything was delivered

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Speaker 2: by the brilliant engineer at the top gave all the

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Speaker 2: instructions where all the tools are going to be. The

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Speaker 2: workers had no say in anything. They just they just

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Speaker 2: basically moved. There could have been robots. That is the

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Speaker 2: model for the industrial age.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The mass movements, particularly the totalitarian mass movements like like Marxism, Leninism,

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Speaker 2: like Nazism, like fascism, resembled that model very much. They

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Speaker 2: had the brilliant fewer at the top or or you know,

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Speaker 2: the polic bureau, and basically they decided everything all the

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Speaker 2: way down to as Gorbashoff used to say, women's women's stocking.

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Speaker 2: How many women's stocking is you're going to manufacture in

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Speaker 2: a year?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: Uh? And that system can only function and democracy wasn't

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Speaker 2: quite that that brutal, but it was a version of that. Okay,

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Speaker 2: there were two three four TV channels, there were two

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Speaker 2: three four carmakers. You had very limited choices. You were

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Speaker 2: a mass consumer, and industry found it very comfortable to

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Speaker 2: say this mass product is exactly what you want. Right.

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Speaker 2: What the digital age has done just sweep all of

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Speaker 2: that away and lay bare the fact that, no, it

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Speaker 2: turns out we're very divided. We want all kinds of things, right,

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Speaker 2: we want all kinds of things. The mass consumer of information.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I was born into that. It was

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Speaker 2: like looking into this gigantic mirror and we were all there.

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Speaker 2: We were all the same picture, the public in the

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Speaker 2: digital age. It's just if that mirror has fallen and

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Speaker 2: shattered and we all live on different pieces. So it's

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Speaker 2: a very divided, very fragmented, very conflicted world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I wonder for me growing up in

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Speaker 1: the eighties and the nineties, the same way, we all

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Speaker 1: listened to the same songs, we all watched the same movies.

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Speaker 1: You know, bands got really big and they could fill

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Speaker 1: out a stadium, And now today there's you know, a

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Speaker 1: million bands and they're just streaming on some station. Right.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it's I mean, I guess it's just

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Speaker 1: natural progression. I don't know if it's a chicken or

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Speaker 1: the egg. I think you kind of made the point

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Speaker 1: of the book that, like, our choices were limited, so

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Speaker 1: our tastes were limited. But as we've been given more

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Speaker 1: choices now, our tastes have grown. I guess that's just

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Speaker 1: a natural evolution.

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Speaker 2: I actually think, I actually think we have now rediscovered

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Speaker 2: our actual tastes. In other words, it was never the

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Speaker 2: case that we wanted three kinds of car. It was

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Speaker 2: never the case that we wanted three TV channels. That's

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Speaker 2: just what there was. And since we had no voice,

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Speaker 2: the public had no voice, we just took it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: their alternative was you walked if you didn't like any

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Speaker 2: of them, or you turned off the TV if you

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Speaker 2: didn't like any show. Right, So it was all or nothing,

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Speaker 2: and most people just went along with it. But I

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Speaker 2: don't think it was any any moment where any anybody,

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Speaker 2: any large number of people within the mass audience actually

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Speaker 2: believe that being part of a mass audience was what

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Speaker 2: they were meant to be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you talked about I think you called it

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Speaker 1: rather Gate. Explain Rathergate for us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see if I remember that one that was

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Speaker 2: essentially a report during the trying to remember what year

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Speaker 2: it was. It was two thousand elections, was it? When

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Speaker 2: essentially it was very critical of George W. Bush for

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Speaker 2: basically using his privilege to avoid going to just go

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Speaker 2: to the National Guard, leaving the guard early and all

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Speaker 2: kinds of what might be construed as abuse of power.

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Speaker 2: And this is a TV broadcast of which Dan Rather,

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Speaker 2: who was the heir to Walter Cronkid, who was like

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Speaker 2: the great figure of authority in the news world.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a key piece. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was seen as this trusted authority, right totally.

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Speaker 2: Dan Rather stood behind this report saying all these things

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Speaker 2: about George W. Bush. And what happened was the bloggers

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Speaker 2: got a hold of that report and within literally hours,

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Speaker 2: somebody had put it online and showed that it was

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Speaker 2: in Times New Roman Fund. And this was supposed to

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Speaker 2: have happened way back in you know, I think in

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Speaker 2: the Vietnam War, and there was no New Times New

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Speaker 2: Roman Fund in the Vietnam era. This is a digital fund,

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Speaker 2: all right. So it showed that this supposedly type written

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Speaker 2: document i'd actually been printed off a computer. The whole

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Speaker 2: thing was a hoax, all right. And then Rather sort

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Speaker 2: of lost his job over that one. Yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 2: the credibility, of course of the anchorman never regained what

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Speaker 2: it was doing. What the krunkitees day.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing how fast that happens today, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: on Twitter way too much these days, and I'll see

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Speaker 1: someone post something that seems real, authentic, believable, and then

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Speaker 1: I'll just read through the comments and just so quickly

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Speaker 1: people will just start to disprove it or argue it

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And it's amazing how fast that crowdsourced information

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Speaker 1: can change. But so you can see it's very hard

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Speaker 1: for an institution to put that trying to be a

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Speaker 1: trusted institution put that out there and being constantly fact

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Speaker 1: checked by the crowd in real time.

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Speaker 2: Well, part part of the problem, I think is the mode.

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Speaker 2: The rhetorical style of the twentieth century institution, authoritative institution

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Speaker 2: was we are run by experts, which is whatever field

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Speaker 2: you have, right, we know. So the problem with the

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Speaker 2: digital world is now we know that we don't know, okay,

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Speaker 2: and these institutions are still telling us you know that.

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Speaker 2: I sort of call it the Anthony Fauci syndrome. Right,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is really what science tells you, But wait,

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Speaker 2: two weeks ago, you told us the exact opposite. So

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Speaker 2: people get very confused, and trust in that rhetorical style

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Speaker 2: has evaporated. It's zero, right, and the elites that run

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Speaker 2: the institutions have not learned and do not want to

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Speaker 2: learn to speak in a more conditional way that have

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Speaker 2: not learned to say we think this is the way

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Speaker 2: things are, correct us if we're wrong, right, which is

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Speaker 2: the way most of us speak, But that would that

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Speaker 2: goes against the green of that style of vehetoric.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing is that with access to that information,

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Speaker 1: so you know, a doctor would used to have to

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Speaker 1: go through all this medical school to learn this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and none of us had any access to that information,

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Speaker 1: so then we would just have to trust that they

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Speaker 1: had read it. But today I could spend an hour

401
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Speaker 1: or two online and probably learn more about a specific

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Speaker 1: something very specific related to my health than my average

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Speaker 1: practitioner would probably know. I might know more about it

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Speaker 1: than he will. And we haven't had that before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, at least you think you know more.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case. I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: You know, in some topics, like an average practitioner like

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Speaker 1: they didn't they haven't studied everything, right, And so you know,

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Speaker 1: for me, if I have something concerning my own health,

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Speaker 1: I could spend a couple hours and probably learn more

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Speaker 1: about something very specific than that average practitioner might know,

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Speaker 1: for example.

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Speaker 2: Essentially your doctor is going to encounter a much more educated,

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Speaker 2: much more opinionated, and much more prepared you. Right, So

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Speaker 2: whereas before we were just like as with television, as

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Speaker 2: with the cars, we were the passive recipients of information.

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Speaker 2: I'm your doctor, I'm telling you to do this. Now

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Speaker 2: people say, well, wait a minute, I just read that.

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Speaker 2: And this, by the way, cuts all across society, all

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Speaker 2: across society. Precedent, for example, used to have as what

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Speaker 2: used to call it his news paper was the CIA

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Speaker 2: Daily Brief, Right, And CIA came and had we have

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Speaker 2: all these secrets, and we're going to tell you, mister president,

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Speaker 2: what's going on. We're going to tell you the future.

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Speaker 2: Because part of CI's thing is that if it tries

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Speaker 2: to foretell events. And it came the moment when the

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Speaker 2: President started saying, but wait, I just read something here,

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Speaker 2: and I just read something there, and you could just

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Speaker 2: see the authority of the CIA leaking out, leaking out

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Speaker 2: to where it probably is very low. Right now, precedents

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Speaker 2: can go online just if you and me and they

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Speaker 2: they can question what their geopolitical doctors in CIA tell them.

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Speaker 2: And CIA has never learned to deal with this.

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Speaker 1: Hm. That's a great point, you know it It reminds me,

435
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, basically what we have as an economic situation

436
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: really or it's an information problem. And you kind of

437
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: referenced the centralization of some with these previous you know,

438
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,719
Speaker 1: whether that be the Russian, the Russian or the or

439
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: what happened in Hitler's Germany or you know what Mao's

440
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: greatly before he tried to do. And really the overall

441
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: problem with central planning is that they don't. Gorbachev doesn't

442
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: have enough information to figure out how many girls pantehos

443
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 1: need to be made. They don't have enough information. The

444
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: free market has the information. They don't have the information,

445
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: and so that's why central planning of an economy can

446
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: never work. And sort of what you're I guess now,

447
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: I'm starting to think about as the CIA is a

448
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: central planner of information for the president or the night

449
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: the news is the central planner of information for us.

450
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: But they can't. They can't.

451
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: They don't have enough data, enough information to control that

452
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: for the public, of what the public wants and needs

453
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: at any given time.

454
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: They are very different modes of conveying information, and I

455
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 2: think as much as anything. I think there's there's a

456
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: definitely structural problem here, and the structural problem is the

457
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 2: one that has to be tackled. But there's also a

458
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: rhetorical or a style model. I mean, who do you

459
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: get your information from?

460
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: Uh?

461
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: That you trust? Right, It's usually some person and you

462
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: and you trust that person because of personal characteristics. What's

463
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: happened with the internet is in my youth. Uh, that

464
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: was not the way it happened. It happened from authority.

465
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: I am the institution, you know, And so there was

466
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: it was depersonalized, and it became you know, newspapers spoke

467
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: with a completely impersonal voice. Presidents stood behind great big

468
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: podiums and you know, basically looked down and and and

469
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: gave us truth. The professors did the same. The Internet

470
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: has re personalized information. So in other words, yeah, I

471
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: think there's still people out there who provide information and

472
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: are very good at it. And you can be somebody

473
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 2: like Barry Wise or or Matt Taibe on Substack for example,

474
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: and the personality of the human doing writing just shines

475
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: through and you go, this is the person I can trust,

476
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: you know, So I in part the difficulty is that

477
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: the people in authority don't want to do that, I

478
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: think in part because they have no personalities. These are

479
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 2: people who are exceedingly they're just climbers. They're just institutional climbers.

480
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: And if they were to let their instant their personalities

481
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: to shine, we would they would have nobody listened to them.

482
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's uh, Matt Tybee, you know, or Barry

483
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: White you're talking about. It's almost like a meritocracy right

484
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: to the people who are better writers and who do

485
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: more research and who present more of truth and facts

486
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: get risen up, and the people who are trying to

487
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: hide behind some bacade of fake authority, they quickly get

488
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: found out in discredit. It's sort of almost like the

489
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: industrial Revolution. So, as you were saying, like, the one

490
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: way I've looked at it is we had this assembly line,

491
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: right and as you said earlier, like they kind of

492
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 1: put everybody down into like a number and they can

493
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: kind of control everybody. And if we were on the

494
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 1: assembly line, you know, I put my part on you

495
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: put your part on it, and you may be way

496
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: smarter than me, but we basically do the same work.

497
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: And you know, there's obviously economic reasons and geopolitical reasons

498
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: why the US middle class has been haulowed out. But

499
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: a big piece of it is that we went from

500
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: the mass you know, mass assembly lines into the information age,

501
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: and in the information age, if you're smarter than me,

502
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: you really start to rise up faster, and now I

503
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: start falling behind. And so kind of back to this meritocracy.

504
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: The Matt Taibe's they can rise up, while the Dan

505
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: rathers they just start falling behind. Like CNN, they can't

506
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: just live on those laurels of being trusted anymore.

507
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hesitate there. We call it buddy smarter or

508
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: less smart, and that being a reason for success. I

509
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: think what Taibi does and what Barry Wise does and

510
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: several others that I follow, is they put their product

511
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: out there on substack. Right. That is a very talk

512
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: about in the marketplace. That is there is no advertising

513
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: right so that you can't be kept afloat. There's no subsidy.

514
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: The government doesn't give you money, foundations don't give you money.

515
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: You're out there by yourself, and then you either have

516
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: readers or you don't. Now substack it was a relatively

517
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: small number of readers fifteen twenty thousands by Internet standards

518
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: is nothing. It's going to make you a wealthy man.

519
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: So you are now being given by your readers the

520
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 2: freedom to be an independent writer. So if you don't,

521
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: if you don't attract that, then then basically you may

522
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: be smart, but you lost the race.

523
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what we have now going on, I don't

524
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: want to go dive down those rabbit hoax. I want

525
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: to jump into revolutions and the follow USSR and stuff

526
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: like that. But just real quickly, we're at a point

527
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: now with technology and where we're at at the friends

528
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: right now of really going to a model with substack

529
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: type models of what we call value for value. So

530
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: if I as a subscriber like Mytt Taibi, I can

531
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: pay him directly. He doesn't need sponsors because the sponsors

532
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: can still co opt them and they could still kind

533
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: of force his direction. But now we the people can

534
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: pay directly to the creator and get that value for value,

535
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: which is then really starting to drive that even faster.

536
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: I want to jump into. So you spent a lot

537
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: of the book talking about these revolutions that happened mostly

538
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: around twenty eleven and kind of kind of around the

539
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: Arab spring I think Era and you drew a lot

540
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: of connections that happened, you know, Tunisia and Egypt and Syria,

541
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: and you drew a lot of connections there, mainly about

542
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: how really one person with an Internet connection and a

543
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: Facebook group or something like that could really start to

544
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: mobilize the masses and kind of get this uprising. I

545
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: want to dig into some of the relationships between those

546
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: and then some things that I thought about as I

547
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: was listening to that. But before, do you kind of

548
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: spend some time trying to separate the distinctions between what

549
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: you call the public and the people and the masses?

550
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: Right, right? So the public guy that I didn't come

551
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: up with my definition for the public, I borrowed Walter Lippmann's.

552
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: Lipmann is one of the great political writers of the

553
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: twentieth century, and he basically he was he thought that

554
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: the public ought to have, should be synonymous as a citizen,

555
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: and should have a tremendous engagement in democracy and so

556
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: forth in our government. And he was very disappointed in

557
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: all his researches and the fact that no, the public

558
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: just seemed to be the people who are pursuing a

559
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: specific affair, I think is what he called it. Uh

560
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: And use their you know, their their voice, their voice

561
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: under influence to support on that side of that affair,

562
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: of their side of their affair. So you know, if

563
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: you are an anti Hosni Mubarak person, young person in

564
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: Egypt in the year twenty eleven, your affair is to

565
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: get rid of Obarak, right, And so the people in

566
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: Tyree were square. That we saw with all that drama

567
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: were the public in Egypt that had gathered there because

568
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: they had all met each other online. And there were

569
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: several groups that did that. I highlighted one in my

570
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: book that continued. That continued not just twenty eleven, it

571
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: was pretty much through twenty nineteen, twenty nineteen. In fact,

572
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: it was probably the most turbulent year for those who

573
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: of There were like at least twenty five major street

574
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: revolts in twenty nineteen. It all kind of came to

575
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: a screeching halt in twenty twenty. Mysterious.

576
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, magically there was. There was ten countries with over

577
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: one million people each in protesting previous to the twenty

578
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: twenty silence.

579
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I mean the interesting thing about it,

580
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: you've got to touched on economics. This included rich countries.

581
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: They included poor countries, you know, very rich countries, very

582
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: poor countries. They included very healthy democracies and pretty terrible dictatorships.

583
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: So the revolt of the public it doesn't seem to

584
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: be completely or even maybe primarily about economics or about democracy.

585
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: There seems to be something else that people are after.

586
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: And what is that.

587
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. If you had if you

588
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: had the answer to that, you know, you could probably

589
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: make a lot of money.

590
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: I think I have the answer. Okay, maybe I can

591
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: make Maybe I can make a lot of money with it. Well,

592
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: I think, I think. I think Ultimately, people want to

593
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: be able to pursue their own life, right, pursue their

594
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: own life. And the problem is that my definition of

595
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: utopia isn't the same as your definition of utopia, and

596
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: so I need to be free to pursue my direction,

597
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: my life, my version of utopia, and you should be

598
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: free to pursue yours as well. The problem is when

599
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: we have these authoritarian figures who want to In the

600
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: United States, three hundred and thirty million people have to

601
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: live under one single regime and let's just way too

602
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: many people. We can't live under that regime, and so

603
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: I think you hinted in your book about you know,

604
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: smaller regions.

605
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah. I think the tendency of the twentieth century,

606
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 2: which is still the tendency of our institutions because they

607
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: live mentally in the twentieth century, is to centralize and

608
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: standardize everything. Right, as you say, I think we have

609
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: reached the point in that experiment where we can say

610
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 2: it's failed. We can't do that, not at this level.

611
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: Not yeah, right, if you're even Switzerland, I me, Switzerland's

612
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: like ten million, twelve billion people, and they live on

613
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 2: their valleys. They don't live in Switzerland's is the federal

614
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: government of Switzerland, My goodness, it has almost no power.

615
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: So yes, the US is on a different scale, but

616
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: most any scale quickly registers up to the point where

617
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: you cannot centralize it to that degree.

618
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: I have another theory too. I'm going to come back

619
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: to that though, because I want to go back to

620
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: these revolutions. So you kind of talked about these different

621
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: revolutions that happen around twenty eleven, and to your point, yes,

622
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: they're continuing, et cetera. And you talked about I want

623
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: to kind of go back to that though. The public

624
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: is all the people, but they identify with different causes

625
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: that don't always interrelate. So I care about what's going

626
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: on with surfer with surfing and motorcycle riding and health food,

627
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: but not always at the same time. And other people

628
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: that are interested in health food don't necessarily care about

629
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: the motorcycle right in the surfey right, So we're we

630
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: all have these different interests that don't necessarily overlap. That's

631
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: the public or that the people.

632
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: There is the people, it doesn't exist, Okay.

633
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: So it's just the public, and then what's the masses?

634
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: The public are the people are part of the masses.

635
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: That then the public.

636
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 2: The public is not the people, although every protest you

637
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: will ever see it claims to represent the people, but

638
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: the people the people essentially is a category of political

639
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: philosophy that there's no such thing as the people. The

640
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 2: masses was just a twentieth century sociological term. It was useful,

641
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 2: then it's not so useful anymore. It doesn't really get

642
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: to use.

643
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: So maybe the masses and the people are kind of

644
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: the same.

645
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: It's just just.

646
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: A group of people that don't really identify themselves, whereas

647
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: the public are a group from within the public or

648
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: the are people over the masses that step up to

649
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: identify themselves with a movement.

650
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: The public is born from friction. Okay, if if the

651
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: elites are legitimate and the public is content, and the

652
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: people within who are not elites, non elites, are content,

653
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 2: there will be no public. At some point, something done

654
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 2: by the elites or some circumstance of life rubbs enough

655
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 2: people the wrong way that they break off from the

656
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: elites and say, I don't like the way things are headed.

657
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 2: And that's how the public is born. In the old days,

658
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: they would have had, you know, radical parties that are

659
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: organize them or whatever. Today they go online and they

660
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: organize that way.

661
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: So we have these revolutions that were happening, and not

662
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: just over in the Middle East. Obviously we most of

663
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: it in the Middle East that you talked about, but

664
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: then you even talked about Occupy Wall Street happened in

665
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: the United States and it wasn't near as big of

666
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: a movement. But one thing that you had drawn some

667
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: ties between these groups was that they weren't like a

668
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: poor class. They were typically kind of more of a

669
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: middle class, educated class of people that that that seemed

670
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: to kind of how how how they were You also

671
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: kind of drew some conclusions that maybe they weren't organized

672
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: or agitated or placed there by the left. You talked

673
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: about the left versus the right, and you said that

674
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: maybe the left wasn't the ones that had put them

675
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: up to they seem to have kind of moved more

676
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: organically something like that.

677
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah, I mean the reaction of the

678
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: opposite side. But first of all, these groups are not

679
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: left or right. They have lefties flavor, and for example,

680
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: the Indignalois and Spain were sort of like leftish and

681
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: when they finally after years organized a minor particle, but

682
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: then it was definitely a left party, and some like

683
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 2: for example the Yellow vest in France have kind of

684
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: like a rightish flavor. Okay, but the politicians from those

685
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 2: sides have tried tried to draw them in on their

686
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 2: side and they rejected them. They're really anti establishment, anti

687
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: status cool. They want a radical change. The problem is

688
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: they have no leaders, they have no organizational structures, they

689
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: have no programs, no idea. Yeah yeah, yeah, so they

690
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: are against but they are not necessarily they can't articulate

691
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: what they are for.

692
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: They'refore there. It's not what they're for, it's what they're against.

693
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: How would you define the left versus the right in

694
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: that context.

695
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I would just almost genealogically

696
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: right people who claim to be that and descend from

697
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 2: from left. For example, both the Indignado's and and the

698
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: Occupiers had a very strong anarchistic element. Right, so the

699
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: anarchists are real good organizing these street protests and and

700
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: their system. See all these are our model after like

701
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: online discussion groups, and the anarchistic model of discussion fits

702
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 2: that very well, the model where everybody's allowed to talk

703
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 2: and there's no votes, no decision making process or anything

704
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: like that. So that you know, basically those those movements

705
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 2: had a slightly leftish flavor because they were slightly leftish,

706
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: you know, the genealogically leftish people in them. But the

707
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: vast you could put i mean, not Occupy Wall Street.

708
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: That was a slightly different group because they never generated

709
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 2: large numbers, but the indignology could put a million people

710
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: on the street. And there aren't that many anarchists in

711
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 2: all Spain, right, So and they got opinion polls showed large,

712
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: large majorities approving of them, even though they stood for

713
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 2: nothing everybody wanted against.

714
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 1: Would you say that left tends to want to have

715
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 1: more government control and right wants to have less government control.

716
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: I mean that's true here. I guess generically, I see

717
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: what is? What is? Uh? What's Emmanuel macronan France? For example?

718
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: Emmanel Macron was sort of born in the Socialist Party,

719
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: but he was a he was with the Rothschild Bank. Okay,

720
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: that's not your idea of what a socialist should be doing.

721
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: And then he broke away from the social he created

722
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 2: his own party. What was that party? Was it left?

723
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: Was it right? Well? He is turned out to be

724
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: a very undemocratic president. He basically just ram this this

725
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: law without getting a vote of the National Assembly in France.

726
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 2: But is he right? Is he left? He definitely wants

727
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 2: more government power. I don't know. I do not know.

728
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the problem, you know. You know they say

729
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: fascism is right and socialism is left, but to me,

730
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: they're both authoritarian governments. So uh, it's hard. It's hard

731
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: to draw a line. I recently wrote a book, shameless plug.

732
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: I wrote it last last August. Nowhere near like your book.

733
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: It's titled The Uncommunist manifesto.

734
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard of with it.

735
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So the uncommiss Manifesto, and in it I have

736
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: a diagram. It's it's too small to show you, but

737
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: I drew a diagram here in the book. And basically

738
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: what this did, it's what we framed as the real spectrum.

739
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 1: And over on the right hand side we show politics,

740
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: and we have you know, communism being on the left

741
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,479
Speaker 1: and fascism being on the right, but all of it

742
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: is on the politics side. And then over here, all

743
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: the way over here is where we have individualism. So

744
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: fascism is right, socialism is left, whatever right, they're both

745
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: authoritarian governments trying to tell us what to do and

746
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: tell somebody paneo as we could have. I don't know

747
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: what the differences of the flavors are. But anyway, so

748
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: going back to this, so the one thing that I

749
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: was thinking is I was listening to frame up all

750
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: of these is you had talked about how really this

751
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: top down central planning fell, It really collapsed with the

752
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: fall of the USSR. So you kind of made that case. Now,

753
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, in my book the COMMSS Manifesto, we talk

754
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: about how Marxism, communism really never kind of went away.

755
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: It's still kind of here, kind of almost went underground.

756
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: And so what I was kind of hearing as you

757
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: were talking about all these different movements that were going on,

758
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: it was all very anti capitalist, very anti capitalist, and

759
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 1: pro welfare. That's what it seemed to be what people

760
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: wanted the well okay, actually, so it seemed like the

761
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: main problem that they were all facing. And when I've

762
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: studied the study some of these, it seems like when

763
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: people can't eat, that's when they go revolt. And so

764
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: they were all sparked by the rise of in christ

765
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: increase of living standards. That girl that you talked about,

766
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 1: I forget where, you know, she blogged about she couldn't

767
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: afford her apartment anymore in Israel, right, real, she couldn't

768
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: afford apartment anymore. So really it was the rise of

769
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: prices you talked about all in Spain and Catalonia. What happened.

770
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: It was the increase in living costs drove people past

771
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: the point, past the brink, and then they seem to

772
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: demand the government fixed that, fixed that by taking away

773
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: capitalism which they think had caused that divide, and to

774
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: give more welfare to help bridge that gap. Do you

775
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 1: think that's a fair assumption.

776
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: I think in some cases, yeah, I think I think

777
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: that what the term was that that young woman whose

778
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: name escapes me right now used was Swinish capitalism, which,

779
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 2: of course, if you were in Israel, is rarely you know,

780
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: anything associated with pork isn't a good thing. So and

781
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 2: the Wall Street occupiers, who are very anti capitalistic, I

782
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: think they're all anti system. They're all anti system.

783
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: But they they wanted more welfare.

784
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: Right, you can't even say that because there was there

785
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 2: was no theay in terms of any programmatic demands. They

786
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 2: had their never programmatic demands. They want the government to

787
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: make life meaningful, they want the government to make it

788
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: life interesting. They all had certain, uh more or less

789
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: reasonable and reasonable economic demands, but they also had social demands.

790
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 2: We in the US go for racial demands and you know,

791
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: gender demands. So it is a sense in each one

792
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: of these groups that the world is out of order,

793
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: you know, it's out of kilter, and and the people

794
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 2: in charge, the elites, are responsible for that. And then

795
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: they turned to the same elites and you're right about

796
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 2: that and say fix it. They had just accused them

797
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: of destroying basically the meaning of life or whatever. And

798
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 2: they have turned to the same people who have done

799
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 2: that and they say, fix it.

800
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: Do you think, but do you think the main catalyst

801
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: was that? Back to kind of what I said, this

802
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: cost of living, this quality of life was going down.

803
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: So to the girl in Israel, right, she couldn't afford

804
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: her apartment anymore, They couldn't afford food.

805
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 2: She was. I don't agree with that all. I think

806
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: she came from a wealthy Ashiknaz family.

807
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: She had turned her back, but she had turned her back.

808
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: On that, right she No, no, she had not. Israeli

809
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: families are powerful. She was basically, I mean, everybody in

810
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: life sometimes has to, you know, adjust to economic realities.

811
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: She did not want to do that. She wanted the

812
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: government to give her an apartment where she did not

813
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 2: have to commute. And basically, this enormous protest, the largest

814
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: ever in the history of Israel till these recent ones

815
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: that we're having right now, arose from this one young

816
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: woman not being able to afford her apartment.

817
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: So, but that's my point. She came from the cost

818
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: of living or the quality life. She couldn't afford apartment.

819
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: She wanted the government to give her a better apartment, right.

820
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: She wanted the govern to do something such that there

821
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 2: would be you know, she could stay in a place

822
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: where where she was close to her work. Yeah, but

823
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 2: I mean in the motivation varied. In Spain, of course,

824
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: there had been a tremendous decline in the standard of

825
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: living after two thousand and eight. But in the US,

826
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: the occupiers were just anti.

827
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: It happened after the two thousand and eight great financial cracks.

828
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: Well no, it was twenty eleven, so it was like

829
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: three years later, all right, So it was an that

830
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: would be.

831
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: Called Arab spring was because massive inflation happened and they

832
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: couldn't afford bread anymore.

833
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that they were way more affluent in

834
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: Egypt than they had been ever in their history. So

835
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 2: that's not true either. And you know, a country like Chile,

836
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: which has probably the most drastic of the revolts, because

837
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: basically the street protesters ended up running the presidency and

838
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: writing the constitution. Chile was a massively prosperous, prosperous the

839
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: most prosperous, like in the American country, unbroken prosperity.

840
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, yeah, I'm just trying anyway, and so

841
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: then it seemed like, like I said, it seemed like

842
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: they all were demanding the government give them this. So

843
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: it's like, on one hand they wanted to dismantle the government,

844
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: to your point, but on the other hand they wanted

845
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: the government to fix it. And so it seemed like

846
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: there was a socialist ties and so I was just

847
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: curious if that's it seems like a lot of Marxism

848
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: to me, right. Karl Marx himself talked about how he

849
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: was so mad because he wanted to write philosophy, but

850
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: the market didn't didn't value that, and he couldn't make

851
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: any money, so he wanted to take from the rich.

852
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 1: So he could, you know, each according to his ability,

853
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: each court in their need, he could just write his

854
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: philosophy get paid. And so it seems a lot of

855
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: this kind of Marxist socialist kind of thinking that has

856
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: spurred a lot of this.

857
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: Well he got angles to basically write his meal tickets.

858
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly. So on one hand, it's like seemed

859
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 1: like the USSR collapsed, But then maybe the idea is

860
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 1: the ideologies of Marxism still kind of seemed to do

861
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: that seemed to kind of still stoke that and ultimately

862
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: it seems like you know, I guess we could say categorically,

863
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: when people aren't happy with their own lives, and typically

864
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: when people can't afford to live the quality of life

865
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: they went and ultimately can't afford to feed their families,

866
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: that's when they really get crazy. This kind of goes

867
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: back to this economic model. I'm curious. So you wrote

868
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: a lot about, you know, what was going on in

869
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: those days, obviously in our phone or conversation right now. Now,

870
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: you wrote the book in twenty sixteen, is that right?

871
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: The first edition was twenty fourteen. The second edition, which

872
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: has a pretty large update, was not like December of

873
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:52,439
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen.

874
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 1: Okay, because trust has seeming to be an eroding even faster,

875
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 1: at a faster pace than we might have even imagined.

876
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: And so I'm curious kind of what your take is.

877
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: I mean, shoot, just in the last two years you

878
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: already kind of mentioned the COVID complex and Fauci, what

879
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: we've seen happening with the Canadian truckers. You know all

880
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: of this, and now today you know the DeVos group

881
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: met in February. The number one topic of Davos is missing.

882
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: How do we handle misinformation and disinformation malinformation in the

883
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: United States, it's a threat to our democracy misinformation. But

884
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: at the same time, we can't. Every day find out

885
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: more lies the government's telling to us, and so it's

886
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: like they are telling us they have to combat misinformation,

887
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: but every day we find out they're the purveyors of misinformation.

888
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: So I'm curious how this is sort of escalated in

889
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 1: your thinking since you've updated the book.

890
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that aspect doing to find really fascinating

891
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: because what I love is dealing with information and how

892
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: it intersects with politics and power. Right, So they're actually

893
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 2: working on an article on that subject. Essentially, the elites

894
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: want to return to a twentieth century, their reactionary twentieth

895
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: century was a really good time.

896
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: To be put the genie back in the bottle.

897
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could be John F. Kennedy and you know,

898
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 2: have all these run ins with women, and they protected you.

899
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: You were protected. Today of course everybody is out there.

900
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: You know, the emperor is naked, and then nobody likes that.

901
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: So so they have tried, in the most interesting way

902
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: and not good, to control the source of all this,

903
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 2: which is the digital domain, and really and truly over

904
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 2: the last of since twenty sixteen, since since Trump got elected,

905
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: there has been this coalescing of government agencies NGOs, you know,

906
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 2: non governmental organizations, the media, the traditional media all kind

907
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 2: of huddled together, uh, to influence. And I think in

908
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: the end, censor that's not a word I use lightly.

909
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: I only use it in terms of when the government

910
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: is involved, right, Uh, censor social media from using uh,

911
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 2: you know, basically broadcasting opinions that that they disapprove of.

912
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: And I mean that's happening right now. And of course,

913
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 2: like the Twitter files, which you know was born when

914
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: uh Elon Musk bought Twitter and then turned uh basically

915
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 2: a lot of internal documents to Matt Taibi, Michael Schellenberger,

916
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 2: and Barry Weiss, and they looked at what was going on,

917
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 2: and they saw that the FBI was essentially the Biden

918
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: White House was telling Twitter, get that expel, that that

919
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: account expelled that American citizen from speaking on on Twitter,

920
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 2: and Twitters saluted and said.

921
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, And it's happening more and more and more,

922
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: and now they're uh, you know, they're trying, they're trying

923
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 1: everything it can. You talked about this conundrum that I

924
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: thought was pretty interesting where you said, you know, governments

925
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: would like to restrict speech and communication, but the problem

926
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: is will stifle growth. So they want to have the

927
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: communication and allow speech, but then they risk their power.

928
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: Right now, if they stifle growth, they're going to risk

929
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: their power too. So it's like they're kind of caught

930
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: in this conundrum where like, really there's no win there.

931
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 1: I mean, if they stifle growth, they're going to get overthrown,

932
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 1: and if they don't stifle growth, they're going to get overthrown.

933
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: You had said early in the book that you I

934
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: think you made the statement, correct me if I'm getting

935
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: it wrong, but that the current form of government today

936
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: isn't compatible with this kind of technology that we have.

937
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: Right, it's not just technology, it's a structure of information. Right,

938
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 2: So are we are set up for a world with

939
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 2: very thin streams of information that feed into each institution

940
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 2: like the media for example, and and and it becomes

941
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: a sert of as semi monopoly that then because there's

942
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 2: so little this which is so scarce. When Walter Cronkite

943
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 2: did go on television and say that's the way it

944
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 2: was for you know, whatever date, we had no way

945
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 2: of knowing anything. So if he gave us some information,

946
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,720
Speaker 2: we were happy he had authority. Right today that that

947
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: that whole system has been has been battered down and essentially,

948
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: I I mean, it's the battle has been joined. So

949
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: I don't make predictions, but I find it hard to

950
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 2: believe that you can put the Internet genie back in

951
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: the bottle. It's too big. The Internet is essentially for

952
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 2: any individual purpose, infinite right, and government is not very capable. So,

953
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: I mean, even governments that specialized in repression aren't very

954
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: good at it. So our government, thank goodness, has not

955
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 2: specialized in that yet. Uh, it's terrible at it. So

956
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 2: the idea that it can somehow deal with with the

957
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: information world from a twentieth century perspective, it cannot. So,

958
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: I mean, there are many ways in which we can change.

959
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: These government structures can change. And you know, I'll tell it.

960
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: I'll give you one, I mean one. The trust in

961
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 2: our government organizations is collapsed right now. A lot of

962
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 2: corporations the trust is collapsed. If you look at one

963
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: corporation in which it hasn't collapsed is Amazon. Amazon, for

964
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 2: all its you know, problems or questions, what you have

965
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: gets from customers a gigantic amount of trust. It makes sense.

966
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 2: I mean, who of us did not use Amazon during

967
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 2: the pandemic? And what do you do when you do that?

968
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 2: You put your credit card online. That's not massive active trust.

969
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 2: And you expect something to show up on your doorstep

970
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 2: a day later. That's another massive active trust, and you

971
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: expect the thing to be of high quality a third

972
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 2: massive active trust. Now Amazon is a gigantic bureaucracy, but

973
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 2: that's not what you experience. You experience quick service with

974
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 2: good products. The federal government is the most gigantic deliverer

975
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: of services probably in the world, but that's not what

976
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 2: you experience. What you experience is bureaucracy, condescension, arrogance. You

977
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: know this this form that form, Who are you come

978
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: back tomorrow? It's gonna take years. It's gonna take So

979
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: if you want to change the federal government in the

980
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 2: set services side, make it more like Amazon and a

981
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: lot less like the Great Pyramid of Giza.

982
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: While I'm certainly in agreement, and I sometimes hang some

983
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: of my guests, some of my solace in the shearing

984
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: competence of the government, to your point, they've look what happened.

985
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: They tried to launch the Obamacare website, or they tried

986
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 1: to overhaul the IRS website or whatever. But you know,

987
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: it seems like the more control they lose, the more

988
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: they're going to have to try to squeeze. You know,

989
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're following along with the latest technology.

990
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: I'm a big bitcoin advocate. And we have these decentralized

991
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: networks now that are outside of the hands of the government,

992
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: and so, you know, not a brand new one, but

993
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 1: like Napster I think you maybe reference in your book,

994
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: But then we had like BitTorrent, and we could download

995
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: music and movies on the web and there's just nothing

996
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: they can just do about it. And so we have

997
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: these decentralized networks.

998
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 2: Now.

999
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: Now we have Bitcoin and that's outside the hands of

1000
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: the government. They can't stop that. And now there's another one.

1001
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: It's called Noster and it's a decentralized communication platform where

1002
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: you can build decentralized Telegram or Twitter or YouTube clients

1003
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 1: on it. And this is just it's outside of their control.

1004
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: So in the past to your point where you know

1005
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: Twitter file is exposed that they were telling Twitter what

1006
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: to do, these are now new networks that that can't

1007
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: they can't impose their will on I don't know if

1008
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: you've if you've seen the rise of that, or if

1009
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: you have any prediction of how that changes things.

1010
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean I won't make predictions because I don't.

1011
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: But that's part of what I'm talking about. The the

1012
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 2: the digital realm is too big and too elusive. It

1013
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: escapes like water. You can't grab it, you know. I

1014
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 2: don't know whether those those particular technologies and modes of

1015
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: communication will be the ones that permanently escape government control.

1016
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: They may just be at the moment in time, we

1017
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 2: are at the very very early stages of this cosmic

1018
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 2: transformation from the industrial age to something that doesn't even

1019
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 2: have a name yet, right, And these may just be

1020
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 2: moments in that, or it may be that, yes, indeed,

1021
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 2: you know, crypto and bitcoin and so forth, uh turned

1022
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: out to be a decisive change. I mean, if you have,

1023
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 2: if you have a way of essentially printing currency that

1024
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 2: the government has no control over it, you have radically

1025
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 2: changed the foundations of the nation state.

1026
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 1: Well, one thing I would say, and we don't need

1027
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time on this, but just

1028
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: like to the point of your book, you talk about

1029
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: how what we considered information pre Internet era was you know,

1030
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: cronkite or rather either one you know, giving us the

1031
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: nightly news and three newspapers that were written by the

1032
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: same person. That was information, whereas today what we consider

1033
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 1: information has completely changed. And so a kid you know

1034
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: in Asia posts a picture on the beach, and I

1035
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: have this information about the weather, the waves, all this information.

1036
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: Bitcoin is a way that we can transfer value. What

1037
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: we would consider money would be like our we store

1038
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: our value on that, we can communicate value. But I

1039
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: think the definition of that has been expanded, and so

1040
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: that'd be interesting to watch. But what's interesting is so

1041
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 1: I recorded a video earlier today from my YouTube channel

1042
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: talking about this new bill that has been put forth.

1043
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: Bipartisan Democrats and Republicans are going for this, the Restrict Act.

1044
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: Have you heard about this Restrict Act? So basically it's

1045
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 1: called the Restrict Act, and it's basically to make TikTok illegal.

1046
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: So they want to make TikTok illegal. But if you

1047
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: dig into what the act is, just like all of these,

1048
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 1: you know, save the Puppy Act, it's not what they

1049
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: appear on the outside. This is the this is the

1050
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: Patriot Act. Times a thousand times a million. And basically

1051
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: I'll just read you a couple of things from this.

1052
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: Inside this Restrict Act, it allows the Director of National

1053
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: Intelligence and Secretary of Commerce, so two people we didn't

1054
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: vote in the authority to universally designate new foreign adversaries

1055
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: without notifying Congress, without a fifteen day window to notify

1056
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 1: the president, and it would require a joint resolution of

1057
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: Congress to overturn it.

1058
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 2: I have not heard.

1059
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: Now you might know from the Patriot Act that foreign

1060
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: individuals can now also be US citizens that are deemed

1061
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: a national security threat. Once designated, the bill grant's authority

1062
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 1: to enforce any action deemed necessary to mitigate the threat,

1063
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: with no due process and few limits on punishment. The

1064
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: Restrict Act will allow the government to access all of

1065
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: the data on your video devices if it has more

1066
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: than one million people using it iPhones, ring cameras, etc.

1067
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: So now they can access all of that information. What

1068
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: kind of punishments? A million dollar fine, twenty years in prison,

1069
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: and the forfeiture of everything you own. You use a

1070
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,479
Speaker 1: VPN to get around this boom, you go to jail,

1071
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: twenty years, you lose everything. This act also grants unlimited

1072
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 1: hiring position to to power to positions of enforcement, unlimited funds,

1073
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: and little to no review of immunity with no Foyer requests.

1074
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 2: Well that's why I like these conversations. You have taught

1075
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 2: me something I had not heard of that.

1076
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 1: I mean, this is bad. It is like really bad.

1077
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 1: So this is if you can't beat them, might as

1078
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: well just cut the internet lines like they tried in Egypt.

1079
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of what this is saying, because

1080
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 1: it seems like they see these decentralized protocols that are

1081
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: popping up and they know they can't control them. So

1082
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: then we just have unlimited access to everything, and if

1083
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: we catch you even looking like you're going to use

1084
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 1: it with a VPN, we're going to put you in

1085
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 1: prison for twenty years with no due process.

1086
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't imagine that's going to pass.

1087
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: It's got bipartisan support by big names including uh, I mean,

1088
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 1: I'll read you, I'll read you a couple here. It's

1089
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 1: got a lot of firepower behind it. It's got Mark Warner, Democrat,

1090
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: Virginia Senator Warner. It's got a couple of big ones here,

1091
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 1: Tommy Baldwin Wisconsin, Joe Manchin, Democrat, West Virginia mansions on it.

1092
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: Jerry Moran represented from Kansas, A couple other big ones here,

1093
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: Kristin Gilbrand from New York, Mitt Romney, Republican from Utah.

1094
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: I mean it's got, it's got, It's got twenty or

1095
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: so people on here, both sides of the aisle.

1096
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 2: This is this is the elites. Yeah, of course, I

1097
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 2: mean this is the I mean every one of those names,

1098
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 2: I would say, you can you can reproduce their behavior

1099
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 2: almost endlessly as elites for sure. Yeah.

1100
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: So you know, it's, uh, it's back to that conundrum.

1101
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: You know, if we don't allow this technology, we're going

1102
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 1: to put ourselves in the back into you know, we're

1103
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: going to restrict our growth. If we do, we're going

1104
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: to constantly be overthrown here. So yeah, it's a it's

1105
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 1: it's definitely a massive ratchet up in this uh, in

1106
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: this communication game, to say the least.

1107
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 2: I'll look it up.

1108
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Well, you don't make predictions, and you've

1109
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 1: already said that. In the final part of your book,

1110
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: you kind of give your thesis of where this where

1111
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: you think this kind of goes though, do you want

1112
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 1: to summarize kind of where you think that goes or

1113
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: kind of how you summarize the thesis in the end.

1114
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what you mean by that.

1115
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: What was it called the finale for skeptics and you

1116
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: had a.

1117
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well basically what I say is, actually that was

1118
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 2: my sort of like, you know, if you do an experiment,

1119
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: you need to have well X happens, then you know

1120
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 2: this it means this. But if why happens is.

1121
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 3: The no hypothesis you called it, Yeah, no hypothesis, right,

1122
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 3: and and you know I have to say, I, as

1123
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 3: you put it, I think earlier the one thing I

1124
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 3: got wrong was the speed at which this was coming

1125
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 3: at us, right.

1126
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 2: I definitely didn't realize how fast it was moving. But

1127
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 2: I think in terms of the substance of it, when

1128
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 2: you look at us, I said, if my hypothesis correct,

1129
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 2: these are the things that need to be happening. If

1130
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 2: not that this is the opposite. Here's a no Our

1131
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 2: world today looks nothing like the no hypothesis. It looks

1132
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 2: like they were bolts of the public in steroids. Got it,

1133
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 2: got it?

1134
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's certainly interesting. What a time to be alive?

1135
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 3: Right.

1136
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: I often say that.

1137
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 2: If you're if you're a geopolitical analyst. It is kind

1138
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 2: of fun, but I mean, what a mess. I also

1139
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:29,480
Speaker 2: fear feel kind of like doctor death because my book

1140
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: and my people wanted to talk to me wretch it up.

1141
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 2: Every time something horrible happens somewhere, everybody feels like I

1142
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 2: can explain it, and of course I mostly can't. But

1143
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 2: happy to drive.

1144
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I definitely recommend getting the book. I enjoyed

1145
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 1: reading it. Have you read the book The Sovereign Individual?

1146
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 2: Yes?

1147
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, really good book.

1148
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 1: It's good, fits together, fits together well with this, you know,

1149
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 1: So recommend to anyone listening check out The Sovereign Individual

1150
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: check out this book if you want an idea. I

1151
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: think I think it helps. It helps show what's going

1152
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 1: on in the world today. So it kind of brings

1153
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: some clarity to what's going on, and it helps you

1154
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: develop some frameworks to think about where we're going into

1155
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,440
Speaker 1: the future and how you can navigate that.

1156
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1157
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: The problem I have with with this act, this act,

1158
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 1: this restrict Act, is like, this is anybody in the world,

1159
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 1: Like this is the long arm of the government, right,

1160
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 1: It's it's against foreign individuals, which can also be you

1161
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: as citizens. But like you can't just move to another

1162
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: country and get away from this. So it's going to

1163
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: be interesting anyway. Man, it has been awesome reading the book,

1164
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 1: it's been awesome talking to you about it. Anything that

1165
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: you'd like to point attention to that people should go

1166
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 1: check out?

1167
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 2: No, I mean, like I said, the whole disinformation. You

1168
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 2: know what Michael Schldenberger calls it a information the censorship

1169
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: industrial complex. He calls it censorship industrial complex, which is

1170
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 2: really not industrial. Is bore like a protection racket. I

1171
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 2: would say, I think anybody who who values freedom ought

1172
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,720
Speaker 2: to be watching that. I mean, it really is. It happened.

1173
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 2: It happened without debate, It happened without laws being enacted.

1174
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 2: It happens without warrants. It happens without judges being involved.

1175
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:24,919
Speaker 2: It happened without formal investigations. Suddenly we have this apparatus

1176
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: of control that the government has implemented, and I think

1177
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 2: we as citizens need to push back.

1178
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 1: On that definitely. Well that we'll get and sign it off.

1179
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 1: We're gonna link to everything down in the show notes

1180
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: down below, so you can check out the book, check

1181
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: out his blog, and with that will sign off. Thanks

1182
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: so much, Martin. All Right, that's a wrap. Hopefully enjoyed

1183
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: this conversation I had with Martin gurry It. It was

1184
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: a good conversation, it was an even better book. I

1185
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 1: highly advised checking it out. We'll put a link down

1186
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 1: to the description in the show notes below. As I said,

1187
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,920
Speaker 1: there's new technologies that are going to make this state

1188
01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: incompetent at trying to enforce this Bitcoin, decentralized monetary net works,

1189
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: NOSTER decentralized information protocols. If you want to check it out,

1190
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: you should come check out the Bitcoin Conference in Miami

1191
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 1: coming up soon. I'll be a speaker there. I have

1192
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: a link for discount tickets if you'd want to come,

1193
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 1: I can get you a discount on some tickets, and

1194
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 1: if you send me send me a message showing that

1195
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 1: you bought it with my link. I'll put it down below.

1196
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to organize little meetup with some people. So

1197
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: if you want to come check out the Big Coin Conference,

1198
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 1: get at discount on tickets, there's a link in the description. Otherwise,

1199
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: leave me a comment, let me know what you think

1200
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 1: about this conversation. Let me know what you think about

1201
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 1: what the future of government looks like with this new

1202
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: technology that allows us to communicate without censorship. I'd love

1203
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 1: to hear what you think as always hit that like

1204
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: button if you like it, the dislike if you don't subscribe,

1205
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 1: if you're not already subscribed, And that's what I got

1206
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: to your success. I'm out.