1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 2: writing about true crime. 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: compelling true crimes. 8 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries. 10 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens. 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 3: How's it going, Kate? 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: It's going well. 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: I'm reading through my notes because, as you know, I 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 2: left you on a cliffhanger last week with our case 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 2: of Grace askew, and I'm ready to jump right to it. 19 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: I would love to know what. 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 2: You had for breakfast this morning and what your fish 21 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 2: are doing, but we're going to skip over the small 22 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 2: talk and get right into this case. 23 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: Is that okay with you? 24 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 3: I guess so. I was really hoping to let you 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 3: know my three fried eggs turned out great. But let's 26 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 3: get going. 27 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: Three fried eggs. Okay, maybe we'll circle back to that later. Okay, 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: so let's get an update on this case. So we 29 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: are in Boston and it is nineteen thirty six, and 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: some public workers discovered two body parts and then quickly 31 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: a third body part floating in the river in these 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: sort of potato sacks. 33 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: It's in Boston Harbor. Actually. 34 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: Eventually the police identify the victim as forty one year 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: old Grace Askew, who is a widow, quite a wealthy widow, 36 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: and she lives at a lake house which is really 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: more like a little cottage. They say that because of 38 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: her dainty feet, they are initially able to identify her. 39 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: And when they go to the scene, there is blood 40 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: everywhere except in the kitchen, where there's a bizarre scene 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: of corned beef halfway cooked on the stove and three 42 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,559 Speaker 2: glasses with some whiskey at a table and blood everywhere. 43 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: But in this kitchen nothing's stolen, and her boyfriend is 44 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: in the wind. This is a man she's been with 45 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: for a few years. They apparently had a really nice relationship, 46 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: and no one can locate him. And the big question 47 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: that we discussed right at the end of the last 48 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: episode is is this man simply a suspect who will 49 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: be cleared? Is he an offender or is he a 50 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: victim in this case? And I think it's all three 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: right now because we don't know enough about what's happening. 52 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, And something I didn't pick up on 53 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 3: when you're talking during the first episode, I remember you 54 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 3: saying that the table was set for three. 55 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was wondering if you were going to ask 56 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: about that. 57 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: Were there three glasses all with whiskey in them? 58 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what the scenes says. 59 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: It is a table set for three people with a 60 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 2: bottle of whiskey and used glasses nearby. I have not 61 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: read anything about fingerprints, so they must not have gotten 62 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: anything usable. 63 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: Okay, we do have the one bloody foot print at 64 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: the scene, correct, but just one. There is an evidence 65 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: of multiple people walking around in. 66 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: Blood just one bare footprint, all right. 67 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: So this opens up the possibility that this wasn't just 68 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 3: Grace and a single person going to have dinner, but 69 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: possibly there may have been another person present. 70 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: Correct, So there might have been three people. The only 71 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: thing we can assume right now is Grace is one 72 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: of those people, because she's the victim. 73 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: Yes, as we. 74 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: Talked about in the last episode, the police are trying 75 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: everything they can to solve this. There's a five hundred 76 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: dollars reward, there's all point bulletins. They're looking in America, 77 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: they're looking in Europe. There's photos of John. Where is 78 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: this man? We cannot figure out where he is. Okay, 79 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit more about Grace and 80 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: other men, because we haven't talked about Grace and other 81 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: men yet. And I don't mean this in a positive way, 82 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 2: because Grace was having problems with someone before she was murdered, 83 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: and it wasn't John. In the early days of the investigation, 84 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 2: which is sort of when they were putting out the 85 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: reward information for John Lyons, someone spotted one of the 86 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: bulletins and came forward and said, I am Grace Asquith's attorney. 87 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: His name was George Locus, and he went to the 88 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: police station and said, I have someone for you to 89 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: talk to. His name is Oscar Bartoloni. And he did 90 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: odd jobs at the Asquith house. He understood where everything 91 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: was in the house. He was friendly at first with 92 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: Grace and with John. But now the attorney says because 93 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: she's been murdered and John is gone. I am suspicious 94 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: And if you're going to talk to anybody, Oscars the 95 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,679 Speaker 2: person that you speak with, This reminds me a little 96 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: bit of the Sam Shepherd case. Ultimately, we believe a 97 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: window washer, window repairman, was the one who was responsible 98 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: for murdering Sam Shepherd's wife. 99 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: It is the opportunity. 100 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: This is somebody who might have been let in, and 101 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 2: this is someone who knew, you know, the space and 102 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: maybe knew her schedule. So this is someone in her circle, 103 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 2: not the closest person to her, but somebody who was 104 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: definitely in her circle. 105 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,559 Speaker 3: Right, and somebody who probably doesn't have much in terms 106 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: of financial assets, you know, and of course Grace has 107 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 3: a fairly sizable bank account as well as having valuables 108 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 3: in the house. But we also have nothing taken from 109 00:05:58,520 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 3: inside the crime scene. 110 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: Right. 111 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 3: If we are now considering the possibility that Grace and 112 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 3: two guests were present prior to Grace being killed, you 113 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 3: have Oscar and John. How well did they know each other? 114 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 3: Is it possible that they could team up in a 115 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 3: conspiracy in order to kill Grace and benefit from that, 116 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: or does Oscar have the capability of being able to 117 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 3: take on both John and Grace at the same time. 118 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: If Oscar is the one that is responsible for Grace's homicide. 119 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: Well, and one of the issues with this story is 120 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: we don't know specific relationships, the friendly aspect of the relationship. 121 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: We don't know how much Oscar and John and Grace 122 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: might have spent time together, because of course Grace is 123 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: dead and John is gone and on the run or something. 124 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: So the reason that George the attorney is alarmed is 125 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: he says a month before, if we're going to believe 126 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: police and say that this happened, let's say mid September, 127 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 2: the month before, Grace had come to her attorney's office, 128 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: and Grace said that Oscar, this handyman, one night, broke 129 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: into her house and he attacked her. The attorney said 130 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: that she had bruises and she had a black eye. 131 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: He attacked her. 132 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: While she was sleeping. We're going to presume this was 133 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: an attempted rape. And this is terrifying to me. He 134 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: got into her home by crawling through a trapdoor from 135 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 2: the basement garage. That is my worst nightmare, somebody crawling 136 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: in the walls to get into the house. 137 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: Oscar's relationship with Grace is he's a handyman. He works 138 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 3: around the house. 139 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: And inside, He's been in and out of the house. 140 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 3: Okay, do we know does he have full access to 141 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: the house even when Grace isn't there. 142 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if he has a key. I doubt it, 143 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: but I don't know. 144 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: If she said, hey, if you need to fix anything, 145 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: you can come by anytime. Sure, but after this happened, 146 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 2: she had I think locked her door before, but after 147 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: this happened, she was incredibly alarmed. And so this is 148 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: the victim saying very clearly that a man had assaulted 149 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: her in the past, and now the attorney is saying, 150 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: you need to pay attention to this guy, Oscar. 151 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, an Oscar obviously is becoming a very 152 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: interesting person in this investigation. Now we go back to 153 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 3: the potential dinner of three people. It doesn't sound like 154 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 3: Oscar would be somebody that Grace would welcome to her 155 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 3: dinner table after this potential rape attack. 156 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: Probably not. 157 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 2: Let me give you some more information and then you 158 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: can surmise what you'd want from this. The attorney, when 159 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: he heard this story, said, you need to go to 160 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: the police. 161 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: You need to press charges. 162 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: And she said, no, okay, let's first talk about the 163 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: various reasons why people don't press charges. 164 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: This is not her husband or her boyfriend. 165 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: Why would somebody not press charges against someone who's not 166 00:08:58,280 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: in their inner circle? 167 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: Are there reasons? 168 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 3: You know, it's very much a personal reason. You talk to, 169 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 3: you know, survivors of sexual assault and they make the 170 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: decision as to whether or not they're going to come 171 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: forward and alert law enforcement, and the reasons they do 172 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 3: that are varied. For some, the idea of becoming a 173 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: victim of sexual assault is something that they just don't 174 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: want to confront. They don't want to live with that. 175 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: You have others that I could see in this situation 176 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 3: with Grace. You know, Grace has a a search and 177 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: social status and here's Oscar, who she may be sympathetic 178 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 3: to in terms of he's probably lower income. You know, 179 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 3: maybe she doesn't want to impact his life any further 180 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: and is more forgiving of the type of physical violence 181 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 3: that he inflicted on her. There's so many reasons, you know, 182 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 3: and it's hard to say up front. I don't even 183 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: know if Oscar knows something about Grace that he could 184 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 3: hold over her head. 185 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned the reason why she said to the 186 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: attorney and no, I'm not going to do it, which 187 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: is she didn't want any publicity. She was somewhat in 188 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 2: the public eye, and she just didn't want any attention 189 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: brought on herself, which is understandable. She was scared. She 190 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: was scared by this man. Sure, here are a couple 191 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: of interesting facts. She never told her boyfriend about Oscar's 192 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: break in, and she told the attorney that she had 193 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: not told him. The idea that I get from the 194 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 2: research is that it's because John was in and out 195 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: of town all the time, and she just didn't see 196 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: him privately for a while. 197 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: And the last time. 198 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: People believed they saw each other, Grace's sister was also there, 199 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: and so there was not a moment where they could 200 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 2: really chat about what happened. But she was alarmed enough 201 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: that she had told her friend Isabelle that she was 202 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 2: afraid of Oscar and that she was afraid something was 203 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: going to happen to her, and she wasn't really sure 204 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: what to do, but that she had really tried to 205 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 2: get a new lock and really secure the house as 206 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 2: much as possible. 207 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and investigators at this point in time need to 208 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 3: be making a bee line to wherever Oscar's at, and 209 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 3: now talking to him, you know, John's in the wind. 210 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: Now Oscar is a prime suspect because he's already shown 211 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 3: that he has a predisposition to violence towards Grace because 212 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 3: of a recent event. 213 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: I agree. 214 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: So they do go to Oscar because, unlike John Lyons, 215 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: Oscar is there and he's available. He is married, he's 216 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 2: a father of three. His family though was not in 217 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: the United States. They were living in Italy, where he 218 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 2: was from. He was a former chef, and now he 219 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: was working as a butcher. Okay, it's another coincidence. So 220 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: I know that we have said butcher's insurgeons should not 221 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: be given preferential treatment when looking at suspects. But this 222 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: was obviously a coincidence. But this is someone who works 223 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 2: with knives, obviously, and is very comfortable with. 224 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 3: Them, sure, and very comfortable with taking bodies apart. 225 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when the police get to Oscar and they 226 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: bring him in, they start asking all of their questions, 227 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: how long have you known Grace? He said, I've known 228 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 2: her about five years up until the murder. And he 229 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: said I had nothing to do with this, And they said, 230 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: when was the last time that you saw her, he said, 231 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: September nineteenth. He had whiskey with Grace and John at 232 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: her house. 233 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: So he is literally placing himself at the crime scene 234 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 3: the knight that likely Grace was killed. 235 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: Does this seem smart to you? It doesn't seem very 236 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: smart to me for him to do that. 237 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 3: Unless he's telling the truth and he has nothing to 238 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 3: do with Grace's homicide. You know, he'd be in far 239 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 3: worse shape if he lied about it. He said, oh, 240 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: I wasn't there, and then evidence comes to light that 241 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 3: would prove that he had been there that night, and 242 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: that becomes even more suspicious. 243 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: I think the police are thinking about all those things. 244 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 2: I think they're also thinking that he is non American 245 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: and he's from another country, which in the nineteen thirties 246 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,359 Speaker 2: was not very helpful to someone who is an immigrant 247 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 2: who the police are looking at for the murder of 248 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: a beautiful white woman. And that's just the facts. There's 249 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: some of that at play here too. They start searching 250 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: the house his house, and they find burlap sacks that 251 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: match the ones used to wrap up Grace's body. We've 252 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: talked about this, though. These are sacks that they found 253 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: at her house. These are sacks that a lot of 254 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: people had. So this is just a little bit of 255 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence, but helpful for police if they really feel 256 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 2: like he's the one who did this to a point, okay. 257 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 3: I would need to know more. It's sort of like 258 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 3: in this day and age, we deal with body parts 259 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 3: that get thrown into trash bags. Well, who has trash bags? 260 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: Everybody has trash bags, and that is well what brand 261 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 3: of trash bag? You try to break it down as 262 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 3: much as possible, but it's still there's a lot of 263 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 3: people that will have that. Now, is it possible to 264 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 3: physically match let's say, the source of trash bags from 265 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 3: the suspect's house to the trash bags that the victim's 266 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 3: body parts were in. Yep. And there's various ways that 267 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 3: that can be done, from whether it's just you know, 268 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 3: where these trash bags were formally joined together, to looking 269 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: at extrusion marks during the manufacturing process to see do 270 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: those line up, and it helps kind of put greater 271 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: association to that evidence. Right now, all I'm hearing is 272 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 3: burlap bags. I'm going that's not blowing my socks off. 273 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: From an evidence standpoint, there needs to be something more 274 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: was there, you know, a special brand, a rare brand, 275 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 3: or you know, did they find trace evidence that was 276 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 3: somewhat unusual that shared between the source of the bags 277 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: at Oscar's house and then what was found on the body. 278 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: Something more needs to be present. 279 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think that they were less discerning about evidence 280 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: than you are, clearly, because this next bit of evidence 281 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: will even less blow your socks off, if that's even 282 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: a price. So remember, she was missing green curtains, and 283 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: she was also found Her body parts were found wrapped 284 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: in green curtains. Police found very similar green curtains. Of course, 285 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: they could not say definitively if these were the ones 286 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: that came from her house, but they found green curtains. 287 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: They were on sale at a store near his home. 288 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: So it sounded to me like they felt like these 289 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: were curtains that maybe he had tried to repurpose, or 290 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: simply just as a note that you know, he is 291 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: in the vicinity of these green curtains. Maybe hers aren't 292 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: the missing ones, maybe he bought ones in this store. 293 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 2: It just seems very haphazard for them to even list 294 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: this as a piece of evidence in this case. 295 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: With these green curtains, I would want to know, did 296 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 3: he purchase those green curtains, you know, in the days 297 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: after Grace was likely killed? 298 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? 299 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 3: Can we show that they are the same, you know, 300 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 3: make model of green curtains that the store was selling. 301 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: And in thinking about the disposal of the body, you know, 302 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: burlap sacks are not watertight, not blood tight, So it 303 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 3: almost is as if the offender dismembered her body, possibly 304 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 3: not knowing how these body parts were packaged. But I'm 305 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 3: thinking that the offender is aware blood is going to 306 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: be seeping out of these body parts and I need 307 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: something that is more blood tight than just pur lap sacks. 308 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know if the offender is thinking 309 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 2: clearly at all. If you take these two men, I 310 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: guess John Lyons is an ex soldier and he was 311 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: getting a pension, And then you've got this other guy, Oscar. 312 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: I'm not sure either one of them are master criminals here. 313 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering how quickly this happened. Because if it's 314 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: John and he knows her schedule, and he knows who 315 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: is likely to show up, like is Isabelle going to 316 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: come visit in the next couple of days, then John 317 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: can take his time Oscar doesn't know her schedule that well, 318 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: and Oscar might not know who's going to pop up 319 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: any day, so it seems like he would have to 320 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 2: move more quickly. 321 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: What do you think my profiling too much? 322 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: You know, well, most certainly the offender having knowledge of 323 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 3: what potentially could interrupt the commission of the crime, which 324 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 3: is including the cleanup aspect of the crime, that's going 325 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 3: to influence the offender's actions for sure. And John being 326 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 3: I'm assuming an intimate partner of Grace, is knowing what 327 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 3: is going to be happening in that house and knows 328 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 3: how much time he would have in order to accomplish 329 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: this crime versus Oscar. I'm still kind of curious. If 330 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 3: Grace was telling the truth and Oscar assaulted her, broke 331 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: into the house and attacked her the month prior, what's 332 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 3: he doing in that house? He is admitting he was 333 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: in that house at night drinking whiskey with John. How 334 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 3: did that come to pass? Did Grace invite him over? 335 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 3: Did John invite him over? Did he just show up 336 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: and those two were just having dinner and they invited 337 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 3: him in. You know, this is all part of the 338 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 3: interview process to start to piece together. You know, what 339 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: are the events that led up to Oscar being in 340 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 3: the house the night of the homicide. 341 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: Well, let's go back a little bit and I'll give 342 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 2: you a little bit more information about Oscar and his 343 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: relationship with Grace. So, after this attack happened where she 344 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: didn't press charges, which was in mid to late August, 345 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: this is about six weeks before she died. After that 346 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 2: attack happened, Grace said she had stronger locks installed on 347 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: the house and Oscar came back September sixteenth. He came 348 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 2: back a few days before this supposed whiskey you know, 349 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: extravaganza happened. And when he came back, John again was 350 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: out of town. He was gone. She told Isabelle that 351 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: she kept the door barred and told him to never 352 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 2: come back, but he kept coming back. He came back 353 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: the next day and then the next day after that. 354 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 3: When you say he's coming back, he's like knocking on 355 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 3: our front door and asking to come in, or is 356 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 3: he actually breaking into the house? 357 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: No to come in. It's as if he didn't realize 358 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: he did something wrong. 359 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 3: So in essence, now Oscar is a stalker. 360 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: It sounds like, and a very violent stalker. Too. 361 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: So this is what the attorney says, and we are 362 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: getting to a point where they're going to arrest Oscar soon. 363 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: Grace's attorney said, what happened after? He kept coming back? 364 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 2: So he came back September sixteenth, he came back the seventeenth, 365 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: he came back the eighteenth. He said, I don't know 366 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: what happened after that last event September eighteenth, which is 367 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: the day before this whiskey thing happened, he said, because 368 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: of course I didn't see her after that, but she 369 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 2: told me that he came back day after day. If 370 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: the attorney says, I believe that Oscar returned on Saturday 371 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 2: the nineteenth and managed to get inside. So what he 372 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: says is interesting. He says he got inside, and he 373 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 2: believes he was the one who was responsible. But he 374 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 2: says Oscar probably called John Lyons. So the attorney believes 375 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: in his heart that they were in on it together, 376 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: that John Lyons and Oscar were in it together. And 377 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: I'm assuming to get Grace asked with money, is what 378 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 2: he thinks, okay? 379 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 3: And is there any details to substantiate that Oscar and 380 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 3: John have that kind of relationship? 381 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: No other than Oscar's claimed that he and John and 382 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 2: Grace had a whiskey together, which just seems outlandish compared 383 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: to you know, when you contrast that with the information 384 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,719 Speaker 2: she gave her own attorney. So her picture is this 385 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: guy's terrorizing me. The attorney's picture is she's being terrorized. 386 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 2: She was murdered by this guy. And I think that 387 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: he contacted John Lyons too, but I'm not one hundred 388 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 2: percent sure. 389 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: It's just like a gut instinct that he had. 390 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: There's no phone records for them to track down, and 391 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: John is gone still, so there was no. 392 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: Way to prove it. 393 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 2: I think he just felt like this seemed a little 394 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 2: too much like a setup in order for maybe John 395 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: to get some of the money. Now they're not married, 396 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: So how is John getting money anyway from Grace? The 397 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: money is not going to go to him, it's going 398 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: to the sister, I would guess. 399 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot that's just isn't adding up this 400 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: relationship between these three. It doesn't make any sense from 401 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: a perspective of financial motive. Just because Grace is killed 402 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 3: doesn't mean John's going to get her assets. So there 403 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 3: must be a mechanism that he can exploit in order 404 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 3: to be able to get some sort of you know, 405 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 3: financial assets from her, whether it be access to her 406 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 3: account which you know, back in nineteen thirty six. It's 407 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 3: not like he could go to an ATM and anonymously 408 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 3: withdraw money. I imagine he would have to go into 409 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 3: a bank, right, you know, and then there would have 410 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: to be all sorts of fraud occurring for him to 411 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 3: be able to gain access to her account. And then Oscar, 412 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 3: I mean, he is the last person Grace is going 413 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 3: to be socializing with, you know. So there's something not 414 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: adding up in any of this. 415 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: So the idea that Bartolini called Lyons, that Oscar called 416 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: John is a little curious. And the police think that 417 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: might have happened. They think that what happened was not 418 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: that John was in on it. 419 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: They believe he is the second victim. 420 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: They think there is so much blood that there have 421 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: to be two victims. They think that either John was 422 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: there and Oscar killed both of them, or more likely 423 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: that he got in just as he had been trying 424 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: to do. He managed to get himself in, He killed 425 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: Grace during an attempted sexual assault, and then called potentially 426 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: John Lyons to come over and then killed him too. 427 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: Now the motive for that, I have no idea, but 428 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 2: the police really believe that John Lyons is dead. He's 429 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: not gone. 430 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 3: And for me, this is where with this crime scene 431 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 3: and the lack of cleanup that the offender did throughout 432 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 3: the house where all this blood is, I would expect 433 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 3: that if I were to see inside this crime scene 434 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 3: that I would see evidence of two homicide victims that 435 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 3: had been dismembered. 436 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: So on October thirtieth, nineteen thirty six, so this is 437 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: about a month after all of this is discovered, he 438 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 2: is indicted on three offenses, three different offenses, Murder with 439 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: an unknown instrument, breaking and entering from the nine of 440 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 2: the eighteenth of the initial attack, and assault with intent 441 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: to rape, which is also with that August eighteenth, so 442 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: the murder, and then two offenses from what happened in August, 443 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: and he has put on trial. He just said I 444 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: didn't have anything to do with this. The last thing 445 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: I could tell you is I had friendly drinks with 446 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 2: these two and I left. He's in total denial that 447 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 2: anything happened in August, that he's been breaking into anybody's house. 448 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 2: So there are people who are on the witness stand. 449 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: There's an X ray specialist who reportedly used a projector 450 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: to show photographs of Grace's skull and pinpointed six different 451 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: fractures on her forehead and her cheeks and the top 452 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: of her skull on the base, which is consistent with 453 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: the state's theory that she had been bludgeoned to death 454 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: and this is what led to her death. I know 455 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 2: this doesn't really matter that much, especially because they can't 456 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: find the weapon, but that also seems like something that 457 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: could happen to a severed head in a potato sact 458 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: that's bouncing around a rocky harbor for several weeks. 459 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 3: Well, this is where the competence of the pathologist comes 460 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 3: into play. Let's say you have a bludgeting that's occurring 461 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 3: while the victim's alive, and you have lacerations to the scalp. 462 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 3: The margins of those lacerations are going to show blood flow. 463 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 3: The heart is still pumping. You got bleeding that is 464 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 3: occurring now being in the water, the wound margins may 465 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 3: not appear as distinct as if she had been found fresh. 466 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 3: A lot of this your favorite subject, could be answered 467 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: by blood patterns present at the house if she's receiving 468 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 3: multiple blows to her scalp and now you're having blood 469 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: spatter patterns that are being deposited, that would help corroborate that, yes, 470 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 3: this is likely, you know where the bludgeting occurred in 471 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: the house, and that these wounds were not post mortem 472 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 3: as a result of the actions in the water or 473 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: the disposal process itself. The extent of the wounds also, 474 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 3: I think would come into play. If you're seeing depressed 475 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: skull fractures multiple areas, I would attribute that more to 476 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 3: intentional violence than something you know, this head just kind 477 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: of floating around and possibly you know, bumping into rocks 478 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 3: and stuff on the shoreline. 479 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 2: And again, this is not something that I think particularly matters, 480 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 2: but I find interesting. 481 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: The X ray. 482 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 2: Specialist said that Grace's legs had several fracks, but these 483 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: were all believed to have been made post mortem. 484 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: Can you tell that really? 485 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I know you can tell an old fracture, 486 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: but how can you tell the difference between he broke 487 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 2: her legs while she was alive and her legs were 488 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 2: intentionally broken or accidentally broken when they were tossed into 489 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 2: the harbor after she died. 490 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. 491 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 3: I just think it's interesting we talk anti mortem and 492 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 3: post mortem, you know, before death, after death, but oftentimes 493 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 3: a lot of the wounding characteristics to the body fall 494 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 3: within this pery mortem range. You can't say it's before 495 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 3: death or after death. It's just kind of around the 496 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 3: time of death. And that's where these fractures unless there 497 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 3: was something really significant to show that they occurred well 498 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 3: after death, and I can't imagine what that would be. 499 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: Right now, I would say these fractures at best could 500 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 3: just be characterized. These appear to be pery mortem. 501 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about the tiny tiny 502 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 2: bit of forensics. They did have the footprint oscar. For 503 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: what it's his foot seemed to match the footprint. Now, 504 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 2: do I think that they're examining the worlds and this 505 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: worlds and everything else like they should be doing. 506 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: Probably not. 507 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 2: Not. In nineteen thirty six, do I think they looked 508 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: and said, yeah, this matches his size basically in a 509 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: roundabout kind of way. Yes, And that's what I think 510 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: they did. It was just more evidence to put forward. 511 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 3: It is you know, it's an association. It's just how 512 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 3: strong in the association is it. Did he have anything 513 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 3: unusual about the size of his feet, Did he have 514 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 3: any unusual disfigurements, because that sometimes is something that comes 515 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 3: into play. So that's where you know, for me to 516 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 3: weigh in and say, oh, it's got to be Oscar's 517 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 3: footprint in the victim's blood at the scene. Well, if 518 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 3: it's the size, it's not an exclusion. And that's the 519 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 3: strongest statement you can make. 520 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: I agree. 521 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about the motive and 522 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: the timeline. 523 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: The motive seems pretty straightforward. 524 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: The state says that Oscar was infatuated with Grace, he 525 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: was aggressive with her, she was or full of him 526 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: and just wanted him to go away. And the state 527 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: believes that he had gone on a bender with alcohol 528 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: and flew into a rage when he finally was able 529 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 2: to get into the house and then killed her. And 530 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: then they of course think that either John was there 531 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: or John was called there, and that Oscar killed him too. 532 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: And there's no evidence of John body parts, nothing popping up. 533 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: So this fits in with what they say happened a 534 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: few days afterwards, which is fishy. So this supposedly happened 535 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: September nineteenth and on September twentieth, which is the night 536 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: after that murder, Oscar was supposed to have a dinner 537 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: date with some friends. 538 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: He said, I can't come. I don't feel like it. 539 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: The next night he was supposed to do a bathtub installation. 540 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: He's a handyman, he said, I'm sick. 541 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: Then Wednesday, he finally emerges two days later and says, 542 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: I feel much better. 543 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: I can do this bathtub installation. 544 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 2: So I think the state is insinuating that on those 545 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: three days, the night of the murder and then subsequently 546 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: the next two days, was when the dismemberment happened. Would 547 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: it really take that long to dismember let's say two bodies. 548 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 3: No, in terms of actually accomplishing the dismemberment and the packaging, 549 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: it wouldn't take that long. But you still have the 550 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 3: transportation aspect. 551 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 552 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: So, if Oscar is truly responsible for killing both John 553 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 3: and Grace inside that house, obviously both of their bodies 554 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 3: have been likely dismembered and packaged and now transported. How 555 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 3: is Oscar transporting? Does he have his own vehicle? Is 556 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 3: he borrowing a vehicle? Have they searched that vehicle? How 557 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 3: thorough are they looking at trying to find evidence such 558 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 3: as blood evidence that would be showing that these body 559 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 3: parts have been in something of Oscar's possession. 560 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think they found that, but it 561 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: doesn't seem like they necessarily needed to because the jury 562 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: was convinced with this evidence. So, you know, to conclude, 563 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 2: you've got a man who, according to Grace's attorney, was 564 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: obsessed with her, was violent with her. She didn't press charges. 565 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 2: That doesn't mean anything. It happened according to this one attorney. 566 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: If we believe everything he's saying, you've got a missing 567 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: boyfriend who might have been the offender. The main offender, 568 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 2: Oscar could have shown up and had some drinks and left. 569 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: That seems unlikely. I would even venture to say, let's 570 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: take that off the table. I would certainly believe the 571 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: attorney more than I would believe Oscar, wouldn't you. I mean, 572 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: do we just take that off the table that he 573 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: was invited to come in, either by John. 574 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: Or by Grace. 575 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, that doesn't add up with the situation that Grace 576 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 3: is telling her attorney. Here, you have Oscar, who's her attacker, 577 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 3: is showing up unwanted after that attack. She's not going 578 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 3: to be inviting him. I would strongly lean towards Oscar 579 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: showed up that night, and I believe in all likelihood, 580 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 3: John was either there at the time Oscar showed up, 581 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 3: or John showed up just to have dinner with Grace 582 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 3: that night and Oscar was already, you know, inside, and 583 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 3: Oscar was able to take both John and Grace out. 584 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: I think the States case against Oscar, though for prosecution purposes, 585 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 3: is relatively weak. Ye, he's at the level of what 586 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 3: I would say, Hey, he's a prime suspect, but what 587 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 3: do we have. We have him admitting to being there 588 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 3: that night, but of course he's saying they were alive 589 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 3: when I left, or something to that effect. We've got 590 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 3: a footprint that he can't be excluded from. He's a butcher, 591 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 3: and a store down the street from where he lived 592 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: sold the same type of green drapes that her body 593 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 3: was found in. I think he is likely the killer 594 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 3: of Grace for sure, and likely John, just it's not 595 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 3: a strong case from my perspective, not yet. I think 596 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 3: there's more that possibly could have been done. 597 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: Well. 598 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: Now we're going to enter the phase of this story 599 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: where we learn that the law is not often fair, 600 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: nor does it work fully all the time, I think 601 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: I agree with you. I think Oscar's the one who 602 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: did it. But there's a complication. Oscar is convicted in 603 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: September of nineteen thirty seven. He sentenced to death in 604 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 2: the electric chair. But in between his sentencing and the 605 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: date of his execution, there's some new information. There's a 606 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 2: woman who knew John Lyons. Her name is Olive Weatherby, 607 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 2: and she reported to the acting governor of Massachusetts, who 608 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: was a man named Francis Kelly. She had seen John 609 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: two weeks after he supposedly disappeared. I don't think she 610 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: approached him, but she saw him and she said, I 611 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: can confirm that he's there. She said he was walking 612 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 2: by a Weymouth highway. And she did not come forward sooner, 613 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 2: because that was the first question I had. She did 614 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 2: not come forward sooner because she was looking for a 615 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: job and she was afraid all this publicity, kind of 616 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 2: like with Grace, all this publicity was going to cause 617 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: her problems. This woman says, John was spotted. I know him, 618 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: and he's alive, and he is now officially in the 619 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: wind and should be a suspect. 620 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: Is what the assumption is here? What do you think 621 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: about that? 622 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: Is one person who knew him spotting him enough to 623 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,479 Speaker 2: confirm that he's alive. 624 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: Can of worms all over the place. I think what 625 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: you're going to say, well, it. 626 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 3: Is and it's not unusual. I mean, you do have 627 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 3: people who want attention, and this is an easy way 628 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 3: for somebody to get attention. Because at this point, especially 629 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty six, how do you verify what she's 630 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 3: saying is true? Right, you know, unless an investigation is ensued, 631 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 3: or you have other witness who are saying, yeah, he's 632 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 3: living in that little house, you know, in that little 633 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 3: bungalow down the street, and you can actually verify that 634 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,479 Speaker 3: he's still alive. How do you put any veracity on 635 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 3: what this woman. 636 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: Is saying exactly? 637 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 3: She could just be trying to get attention now and 638 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 3: now that she's you know, finished with her job application process, 639 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 3: got a job, whatever else, now she's saying, hey, I 640 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 3: saw John and her name is in. 641 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: The newspaper, or she's friends with Oscar, or Oscar's family 642 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 2: has paid her to say this. Yeah, if that's the case, 643 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 2: it worked because they delayed his execution and a committee 644 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: was appointed by the governor to take another look at 645 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: Oscar's case, and the committee said it would be a 646 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 2: grave error to take this man's life while John Lyons 647 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 2: might still be out there because he's another suspect. So 648 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: three years after she's murdered, his sentence is commuted to 649 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 2: life imprisonment. And it gets a little worse after that. 650 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 2: But what do you think about all that, the possibility 651 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: this one woman saying John Lyons is alive. It has 652 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 2: now derailed the state's plan to have this man executed. 653 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 2: And I'm not going to talk about the death penalty 654 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 2: and my feelings about the death penalty on this show, 655 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: but I know that that was the state's intentions, and 656 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: now that is not what is happening. He is, at 657 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: a minimum commuted to life imprisonment. 658 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 3: I don't have a problem with the sentence being commuted, 659 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 3: and in part because I just think the case against 660 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 3: Oscar is lacking, even though I think he is responsible. 661 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 3: This was a jury trial, I think you said, right, yep, yes, 662 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 3: so you know, per our justice system, Oscar had twelve 663 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 3: jurors you know, in essence convict him, and then he 664 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 3: was sentenced to death. And now you have somebody just 665 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 3: coming out of the blue saying, oh, hold on, she 666 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 3: could just be absolutely making it up. It's now causing 667 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 3: this domino effect. I think I have a bigger problem 668 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 3: with that aspect, because that could happen in any case 669 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 3: at any time. 670 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: Yep. 671 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 2: So this is another development in nineteen sixty one. So 672 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 2: this is twenty five years after the murder. Massachusetts first 673 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 2: Italian American governor has decided to pardon Oscar because I'm 674 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: assuming they feel like this is a miscarriage of justice 675 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 2: and there's some bigotry going on here. 676 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: The long term supporters. 677 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 2: Of Oscar believed that he had helped remove and dismember 678 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 2: the body because he was afraid of John Lyons, the 679 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: real killer. So that is what the supporters have said. Oscar, 680 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: for his part, is released from prison in nineteen sixty one, 681 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 2: and he is deported immediately to Italy and never heard 682 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: from again. And John Lyons is still never heard from again. 683 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: He is gone. 684 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 2: He has either disappeared or he is in the Boston harbor. 685 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: And we don't know. But that woman is the only 686 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: one who had ever seen him who reported it. 687 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 3: At least now you know. So Oscar served twenty five years. 688 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 3: He was saved from execution. I don't know how fast 689 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 3: Massachusetts was executing their death row inmates back in the thirties, forties, 690 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 3: et cetera. In all likelihood, he probably would have faced execution, 691 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 3: I would imagine during that timeframe. I think for me, 692 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 3: in many ways, you see homicide defendants that are charged 693 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 3: with murder and it's not a death penalty case. Oftentimes 694 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 3: if they're not sentenced to life without parole and LWOP case, 695 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 3: you see the sentence of twenty five years to life. 696 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 3: And in this case, due to the lack of a 697 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 3: really strong case against Oscar and again, I think he's responsible. 698 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 2: And all I think about is, this is a guy 699 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 2: who terrorized this woman for it sounds like more than 700 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 2: a month, and then. 701 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: Beat her to death. 702 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 2: I don't think there's any doubt he's the one who 703 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 2: did this, beat her to death, broke her skull in parts, 704 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 2: and then to add to it, dismembered her and they 705 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 2: still had never found her torso her arms. It was 706 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 2: absolutely terrible. So by the letter of the law, I 707 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 2: agree with you, this was a weak case. And if 708 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: you are just looking at this as a law school 709 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 2: student and you go, boy, he really shouldn't have been convicted, 710 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 2: or if he did, really twenty five years Max. Yes, 711 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 2: but knowing what he did, it's infuriating to me that 712 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: he ended up in Italy doing whatever with his family. Sure, 713 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 2: it's nauseating and I hate that that's the way the 714 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 2: law works. But we can't predict what people did when 715 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 2: and what evidence we're going to have. I just it's 716 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 2: disgusting to me. 717 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 3: Well, this is often the dilemma that prosecutors face, you know, 718 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 3: when they are looking at charging somebody with crimes? What 719 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 3: can they prove? As investigators, we know this guy did it, right, 720 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 3: But then you go to a prosecutor and the prosecutor 721 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 3: will go, well, I agree with you, he did it, 722 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 3: but what can I prove ye and get twelve people 723 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 3: to agree to convict? And that's oftentimes a very frustrating 724 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 3: aspect to the process. Is where you know, like in 725 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 3: this case, if you were to assuming everything that we 726 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 3: heard about Oscar's activities leading up, you know, to the 727 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 3: homicide of Grace, in terms of the stocking, the attack, 728 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 3: the attempted rape, et cetera. You know, if you look 729 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 3: at all that and say that is all true and 730 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 3: that's all provable, then Oscar is easily convicted of a 731 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 3: multitude of charges. Now they charged him with those prior acts, 732 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 3: they did, yeah, and he was convicted of those prior acts, 733 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 3: and so you could see from a statutory standpoint and 734 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 3: a sentencing standpoint, he could be eligible for the max 735 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 3: from the legal side. But I'm just kind of thinking 736 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 3: like you are, if he was truly doing that to 737 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 3: Grace then ultimately took her life in this horrific manner. 738 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 3: Then the fact that he is able to live out 739 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 3: his last remaining years, he's enjoying a life that he 740 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 3: doesn't deserve. Yep, that's the frustrating part. And that's just 741 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 3: part of the limitation of the justice system oftentimes, whereas 742 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 3: like God, you know, we wish we could get this 743 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 3: guy on more, we just know we can't prove it. 744 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: Paul, I'm back to being in a crabby mood. This case. 745 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: This case makes me so sad. 746 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 2: I just there's justice and then there's not, and there's 747 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 2: mystery about it. 748 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: And I know we all love a. 749 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 2: Good mystery, but this woman ending up in Boston Harbor 750 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 2: floating around, it's sad. And now I'm gonna have to 751 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 2: figure out what am I gonna do? Is there an 752 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 2: that can help me? Feel better from this. What are 753 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 2: you gonna do? Not have another cup of coffee? 754 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: I know that. Oh now we're back to whiskey next week. 755 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a good chance. 756 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 2: Oh sure, interesting case, I think is what you were 757 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 2: getting ready to say it is. 758 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 3: It is another interesting case. It's another case even though 759 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 3: that it's you know, approaching what ninety years old. Yeah, 760 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 3: it just shows you know, how absent the technologies and 761 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 3: maybe some of the investigative lack of investigative acumen that 762 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 3: these these agencies had back then. This is a crime 763 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 3: that could happen today and does happen today. Stalker shows 764 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 3: up and kills somebody, and it's just such a tragic 765 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 3: thing that these people exist. 766 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 2: Well, on that note, I will see you next week 767 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 2: for another case. 768 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to it. 769 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 3: All right, sounds good, Thanks Kate. 770 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. 771 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 3: If our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot 772 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources. 773 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 774 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson. 775 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum. 776 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 777 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa. 778 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 3: Lilac, Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and 779 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 3: Daniel Kramer. 780 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 781 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:27,280 Speaker 2: Baried Bones. 782 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a 783 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode 784 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now, and 785 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold Cases, 786 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 2: is also available now