1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Diversion audio. 2 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: In nineteen oh two, Cassie Chadwick stood in the gorgeous 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: lobby of the Holland House on the corner of thirtieth 4 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: Street and Fifth Avenue in New York City. Men in 5 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: bowler hats and frock coats passed her, and she scoured 6 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: their faces for one in particular, she spotted James Dillon 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: standing alone. He was a lawyer, a friend of her husband's, 8 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 2: and she let her shoulder graze his when she passed him. Naturally, 9 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: he excused himself. Cassie whirled around and said, it was 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: such a great coincidence to see him here, so far 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: away from her home in Cleveland. Actually, she was on 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: her way to her father's house. Would he mind escorting 13 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: her there? He couldn't very well say no. He hailed 14 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: an open carriage. As it slowed, Cassie gave the driver 15 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: the address to East ninety first Street at Fifth Avenue. 16 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: James was shocked. Before they even got in the carriage, 17 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: she had given the cab driver the address to the 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: four story mansion of steel magnate Andrew Carnegie. Cassie knew 19 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 2: that James would recognize the address, and she took the 20 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: opportunity to explain her position. What he was assuming was true. 21 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: She was Carnegie's illegitimate daughter. That's why coming across James 22 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: in the lobby was so serendipitous. She needed a trusted 23 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: friend and lawyer in this instance. Her father was very 24 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: sensitive about who knew his secret. An illegitimate child could 25 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: destroy his reputation. He was still a man of integrity, though. 26 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: He set up a trust in her name, but she 27 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: still had to make periodic trips to access it. As 28 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: they pulled up to the mansion, Cassie hesitated, Actually, her 29 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: father might not like the presence of someone he didn't 30 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: already know and trust. It might be better if James 31 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: waited here. Would that be all right? James said yes. Again, 32 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: he couldn't very well say no. He watched Cassie rang 33 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: the bell and a butler let her in without hesitation. 34 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: From the carriage, James couldn't hear the conversation. Cassie had 35 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: just asked to speak to the head housekeeper. Over the 36 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: next twenty minutes, Cassie explained that she was thinking of 37 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: hiring a new maid, and one of the maid's references 38 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: was the Carnegie house. She was stopping by to check 39 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: the applicant's references. Naturally, no such woman existed, and neither 40 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: did anyone by her name. The housekeeper told her as much, 41 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: but still Cassie managed to stretch the talk of housework 42 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 2: to around twenty minutes, which was perfect. On the way 43 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: back to the carriage, where James the Lawyer waited, Cassie 44 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: slipped from her coat a big brown envelope containing two 45 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: promissory notes for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and 46 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: five hundred thousand dollars signed by Andrew Carnegie, plus securities 47 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: valued at five million dollars. She showed James its contents. 48 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: It was a matter of weeks before James spread Cassie's 49 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: secret all over Cleveland, which was exactly what she'd been 50 00:03:42,280 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: counting on him to do. Welcome to the greatest true 51 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: crime stories ever told. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer. This is 52 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: our episode about the great conwoman of. 53 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: The Gilded Age. 54 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: It's part two of the story of a woman who 55 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 2: wanted into East Coast high society and got there by deception. 56 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: Joined me for the second installment of this wild ride. 57 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: Right after this break. When we last left Cassie, she 58 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: had realized that diamonds had huge value, and not just 59 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: in what someone would pay for them if they were buying. 60 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: Jewels were what first lured her into Conning when she 61 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: was just a kid, but now that she had more 62 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: or less made it into high society, they served more 63 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: purpose than just luxury. Because Cassie had begun the promissory 64 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: note scam again, she was passing them off at many banks, 65 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: or trying to. Big city banks were harder to swindle 66 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: than small town ones, maybe simply because they dealt in 67 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: bigger volume, and so they had run across more fraud. 68 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: Regardless of why, Cassie had to be prepared. When bankers 69 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: first balked at a promissory note, she'd offer a diamond 70 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: in addition, and they'd almost always take the note in 71 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: that case, because who on earth would have a loose 72 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 2: gemstone on hand except for a rich woman. When we 73 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: left Cassie in last week's episode, she had been accumulating 74 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 2: and smuggling jewels for her own personal use, and a 75 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: customs agent had busted her on one piece of jewelry, 76 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 2: which she had surrendered, and then she told everyone about 77 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: the inconvenience. She even asked a few friends to write 78 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: to the Customs board on her behalf. Not only had 79 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 2: she never smuggled jewels, she said, but any customs agent 80 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: should know you don't owe duties on reset gems anyway, 81 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 2: so they wrote for her. Not only did customs return 82 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: her necklace on no evidence, only character references from other 83 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: rich folks, but she also got agent William Theobald fired. 84 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: After being around ridiculous wealth, the likes of which could 85 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: just write a letter and get a federal agent fired, 86 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: Cassie was realizing that sophistication wasn't just about being rich. 87 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 2: As she studied her new friends, she uncovered that it 88 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: wasn't just about having a lot. Everyone at this economic 89 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: level had a lot. You had to have rare things, novelties, 90 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: one of the kind's commissions customs. So Cassie's interests got weird. 91 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: Listen to this, She bought literal musical chairs like they 92 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: played songs when her guests sat down, same with plates 93 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: that played music when you pick them up. She also 94 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: bought a pipe organ for her husband, doctor Leroy Chadwick, 95 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: to play in the basement. And Cassie bought the bed 96 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: that President McKinley slept in the night before his assassination. 97 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: She must have had a soft spot for him, since 98 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: he's the one who had earlier shortened her prison sentence 99 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: after that letter writing campaign. She was also very generous 100 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: with her money. She not only gave her friends presents 101 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: like mule skin coats or pianos, but she paid her 102 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: servants very well, even giving them gifts like custom suits 103 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: on special occasions. And of course, like any truly rich person, 104 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: she donated to charities. That last part was especially important 105 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: for the next part of her ruse. By early nineteen 106 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: oh three, Leroy had recovered from his long fight with 107 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: Roman fever and returned to Pennsylvania. Cassie sat him down 108 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: in private and broke the news. She had a secret. 109 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: It was important and he deserved to know. She confessed 110 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: that she was the illegitimate daughter of Andrew Carnegie. Cassie 111 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: told Leroy that it was a very important secret. She 112 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: could ruin the great philanthropist's reputation if word ever circulated, 113 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 2: and mutation was very important for a man of integrity 114 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: like Carnegie. Leroy didn't breathe a word, except to call 115 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: over his longtime friend and banker Erie Reynolds. If you remember, 116 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: in part one of this story, Erie was the friend 117 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: who kind of endorsed Cassie to Leroy before he proposed. 118 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: He was the buddy who would tell him if he 119 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: was making a mistake. Now, Erie was nearly as close 120 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: to Cassie as he was Leroy. His own children thought 121 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 2: of Cassie as their second mother. Erie arrived to their 122 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 2: home and the Chadwicks passed him a stack of papers 123 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: to sign for verification. As a banker, his signature would 124 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: be recognized even if others on the forms were not. 125 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: One paper was a note for eighteen hundred dollars signed 126 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: by Daniel Pine. If that name sounds new, that's because 127 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: it is. Daniel Pine did not exist. Also, in good faith, 128 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: Erie sa fin a thirty four hundred dollars mortgage on 129 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: this fictional Pines home. I mean, imagine thirty four hundred 130 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: dollars for a house mortgage. Then there was another note, 131 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 2: this time for five million dollars. That surprised him a little. 132 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 2: He knew Cassie had money, but he didn't know she 133 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 2: had big money. And what surprised him even more was 134 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 2: the signature at the bottom. It read quote I Andrew 135 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: Carnegie of New York City, New York, do hereby acknowledge 136 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 2: that I hold in trust for missus Cassie L. Chadwick, 137 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: wife of doctor Leroy S. Chadwick, of eighteen twenty four 138 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: Euclid Avenue, City of Cleveland, County of Cuyahoga, and State 139 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: of Ohio, property assigned and delivered to me property of 140 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: the appraised value of ten million, two hundred and forty 141 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: six thousand dollars. The note then detailed what the property was, 142 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: and it included shares of Great Western Regis the Caledonian Railway, 143 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: as well as bonds of the United States Steel Corporation, 144 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 2: and it agreed to pay all this over to Cassie 145 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: semi annually. The trust had been enlisted to Cassie's legitimate uncle, 146 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: and that uncle had carried it out as a mysterious 147 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: benefactor until his death. Maybe I should pause here and 148 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: remind you though Cassie made all of this up. She 149 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: not only wasn't Andrew Carnegie's kid, but she didn't even 150 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: have an uncle by the name. 151 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: She stated. 152 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: Eerie didn't suspect that, not exactly. He did think the 153 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 2: story was wild, but stranger things had happened than a 154 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 2: tycoon of that caliber having an illegitimate child. Charles Schwab 155 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: was a gambler, William Vanderbilt had a mistress, and it 156 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: was an open secret that Jp Morgan had many plus. 157 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: Carnegie was known as a philanthropist. Just a couple of 158 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: years ago, he'd written that a man who dies rich 159 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: dies disgraced if he did have an illegitimate child. This 160 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: route seemed like a plausible one for him. Before the 161 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 2: information really had the chance to sink in, the Chadwicks 162 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: asked him the thing they'd brought him in for. They 163 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: wanted Erie's bank to hold the original copies of the securities, 164 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: and they wanted Erie to copy and sign the forms 165 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,359 Speaker 2: in case another bank came asking questions about Cassie's worth. Afterward, 166 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 2: the whole package was sealed and vaulted at Erie's bank, 167 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: and Cassie had in hand a receipt placing the full 168 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: weight of the best bank in Cleveland behind her millions. 169 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: Cassie used that seat to her advantage. She went to 170 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: Carnegie's friends asking for loans because she was sure that 171 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: they would keep his secret for him. After all, it 172 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 2: was far more likely that Carnegie, who had married late 173 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: in life, had an illegitimate daughter during his early adulthood, 174 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: than that a nice, young, well bred woman like Cassie 175 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: would forge all of this paperwork and forge it so legitimately. 176 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 2: So she asked people like the lawyer for magnate Henry 177 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: clay Frick and the attorney for Henry Phipps Junior. In 178 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: the same trip to New York where she had convinced 179 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: James Dillon that she was Carnegie's daughter, she gleaned three 180 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars from Carnegie's friends. You might be wondering, 181 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: and then what happened, Well, I'll tell you after the break. 182 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: Charles Beckwith was sixty two years old when he first 183 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: encountered Cassie Chadwick. He was the president of Citizens National 184 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: Bank of Oberlin, Ohio, and he was well respected as 185 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: well as somewhat resented. Charles had a reputation for denying loans. 186 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 2: He was very careful and he had an eye for 187 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: a good deal. When Cassie's representatives got in touch with 188 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: Charles about a loan for her, they already had his 189 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: ear because they'd been in business together for a long time. Again, 190 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: who she knew proved to be crucial. Charles asked around 191 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: about Cassie. It definitely seemed like she had money. She 192 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: certainly spent freely, and she seemed overall mystified by her finances. Basically, 193 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: she was an easy target, or at least she seemed 194 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: to be in person. Charles said the bank could loan 195 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: her six thousand dollars. Cassie pushed back, almost stupidly, that 196 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: she needed almost double that, thirteen thousand, and he agreed. Look, 197 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: as a principal, I avoid playing dumb because it perpetuates 198 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: stereotypes about women in general. But Cassie really made that 199 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: prejudice work for her. She repaid the debt, but it 200 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: wasn't long before she was back asking for more. Charles 201 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: often made extra side money doing private lending, so this 202 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: time he made Cassie a personal loan, and then they 203 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: became friends, at least in some capacity. Charles thought he 204 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: was legally making money off her ineptitude, and Cassie knew 205 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: she was making illegal money off his. It wasn't long 206 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: before Cassie told him of her parentage. She showed him 207 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: the receipt that Eerie Reynolds had signed, and she explained 208 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: how her estate was currently administered by three men in 209 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: New York. 210 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: That was a lie. 211 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: There were no three guys, and now she told Charles 212 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: she thought maybe it was time to change up the administration, 213 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: and she swore Charles to secrecy. She said, when her 214 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: contract with the three New York guys was up, which 215 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: was also fake, she wanted to move her business to 216 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: him in Oberlin. He drew up a contract double quick, 217 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: and she signed it immediately. It guaranteed that before July one, 218 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: nineteen oh three, the Carnegie Trust must be turned over 219 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: to him, and he would receive a forty thousand dollars 220 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: bonus plus ten thousand dollars per year while they managed 221 00:16:47,680 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: her estate with that contract as an assurance and Carnegie's 222 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: signature as a guarantee against default. Charles went all in 223 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: on loaning Cassie money all the while he thought he 224 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 2: was taking advantage of her. Until July first came and 225 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 2: went with no change. Cassie explained that she still intended 226 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: to move the handling of her estate over to him, 227 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: but she needed more time. Charles wrote that off as 228 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: the cost of dealing with a mindless heiress, but Carnegie 229 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: would come through by fall of nineteen oh three, though 230 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: Charles was running very low on funds. He had one 231 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: hundred and two thousand dollars tied up in Cassie Chadwick. 232 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 2: In today's money, that's about three million, two hundred and 233 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 2: eighteen thousand dollars. And of course Cassie needed more money. 234 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 2: But he and his companion Arthur Spear couldn't just walk 235 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 2: in and out of Oberlin's bank with a stack of 236 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: cash for her. She couldn't write personal checks either, because 237 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 2: she didn't have any money on deposit, so Charles provided 238 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 2: her with certified bank checks three actually, one for twelve thousand, 239 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 2: five hundred, one for fifty thousand, and one for thirty thousand. 240 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: She deposited them all in a bank in Cleveland. I'm 241 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 2: not really clear on why Charles Beckworth would throw good 242 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: money after bad except for that he maybe couldn't accept 243 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: that it was bad money. After all, he had essentially 244 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: signed away his retirement savings, and that couldn't have been 245 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: an easy thing to come to terms with. His confirmation 246 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: bias simply would not allow him to believe that he 247 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: had made a bad investment of a lot of money, 248 00:18:50,760 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 2: of all his money. Really still, when National Examiner Levi 249 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: Miller came to Oberlin to check its records. Charles started 250 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 2: to sweat. He tried to explain to Cassie that if 251 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: Levi discovered the bank was missing ninety two thousand, five 252 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 2: hundred dollars, not only would he and Arthur lose their jobs, 253 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 2: but the bank itself could be shut down. He needed 254 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: her to repay that loan now, but Cassie played dumb 255 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 2: and helpless. Charles repaid the bank loan out of his 256 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: own funds, and she went on to swindle more professionals. 257 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: It was a matter of time before she defaulted on 258 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: a loan. Then there was a twenty eight thousand and 259 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: eight hundred dollars loan from the American Exchange Bank, and 260 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: it was a secured loan. Specifically, it was a loan 261 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: secured against her household furnishings. Now she had to go 262 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 2: to court, and until they settled, twenty eight thousand and 263 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: eight hundred dollars worth of her belongings now belonged to 264 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 2: the bank. Cassie went to Charles Beckworth. For some reason 265 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: that I can't fathom, Charles came to her rescue again. 266 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 2: I have to assume it's severe denial on his part, 267 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: since she already owed him so much. He raised the 268 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 2: fifteen thousand dollars she needed, and she bought herself some 269 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: time paying back the rest. Still, her creditor started to 270 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: hound her, and she tried to explain that when you're 271 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: this rich, you just couldn't get your hands on that 272 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: kind of cash, especially not when most of it was 273 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: locked in a trust. She enlisted more lawyers, more bankers, 274 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: more lenders, more loans, and she had herself covered until 275 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 2: Levi Miller returned to Oberlin Bank. Charles that the bank 276 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 2: had a whole of two hundred and twenty seven thousand 277 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 2: and five hundred dollars and all of it had been 278 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 2: loaned to see a Chadwick. Charles tried to explain that, yes, 279 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: that's what it looked like, but really the bank was 280 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: healthier than ever because those loans were secured over secured. 281 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: Really. 282 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 2: Levi was awestruck. Had Charles loaned this mister Chadwick thirty 283 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: eight times the legal limit? Charles corrected him, they had 284 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: loaned thirty eight times the legal limit. To missus Chadwick, 285 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: the loans should have never been made, but especially not 286 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 2: to a woman. Levi would have to report this to 287 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: the comptroller. November nineteen oh four was the beginning of 288 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 2: the end. Herbert Newton brought a lawsuit against her, and 289 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 2: Cassie had listed Wade Park Bank as a party defendant. 290 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,479 Speaker 2: Newton told Eerie he needed to see that securities. Eerie 291 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: himself said he'd never seen them, and Cassie would not 292 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 2: give permission for them to be unsealed. Cassie Chadwick and 293 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: her debts then made the newspapers. That's what started the 294 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: bank run, and then it got worse for everyone. 295 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: Stay with us. 296 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 2: People who had entrusted their savings to Wade Park Bank 297 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 2: read about Cassie Chadwick's scandals in the local paper. They 298 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 2: knew how closely their bank was associated with her, and 299 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: everyone rushed to the teller to withdraw their deposits. It 300 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: was a disaster. The bank made it to closing without buckling, 301 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 2: but it wouldn't last much longer. Soon after, the board 302 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: of directors voted to suspend the bill business of Citizens 303 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: National Bank of Oberlin. When depositors came on Monday morning, 304 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 2: they were met with a closed sign in the window. 305 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 2: Her other creditors came knocking too, and that's when they 306 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: started pushing for her to declare bankruptcy. Cassie assured her 307 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 2: lawyers that none of this meant anything. It was just 308 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: that these secret financial matters took a while. Plus they 309 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: realized their position. If they pushed her too hard, they'd 310 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: lose everything. If the bank seized what she had or 311 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 2: tied her assets up in court, she would not only 312 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: lose her own wealth, but she'd also lose the money 313 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 2: they lent to her. The rationalization is crazy, but it's 314 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: almost like they had to spend more money to earn 315 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: back the money that was technically already theirs, and that 316 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 2: is why rich people have rebranded debt as leverage. Meanwhile, 317 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 2: Cassie's renown was spreading, and it finally met the ears 318 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: of Andrew Carnegie himself. His personal secretary broke the news. 319 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 2: Carnegie naturally wanted no part of it. Even to deny 320 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 2: such a claim as an illegitimate daughter was to acknowledge 321 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 2: it in some way. He ignored this slander for as 322 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: long as he could, but when it didn't go away 323 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: on its own, he issued an official statement on November 324 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: twenty ninth, nineteen oh four. Quote, mister Carnegie read this 325 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: report and pronounced it absurd. Mister Carnegie does not know 326 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: the woman at all, but his denial convinced no one, 327 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 2: probably because they didn't want to be convinced their own 328 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: fortunes were on the line. Oberlin Bank was meanwhile under 329 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 2: fire by a federal prosecutor, Robert Lyons. Charles and Arthur's 330 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 2: names were on every everything Robert saw, suggested they had 331 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 2: been misappropriating funds for Cassie Chadwick for years. He couldn't 332 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: prosecute state crimes like forgery if Carnegie's name had been forged, 333 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: and he couldn't blame Cassie for misappropriating bank funds. She 334 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: didn't work at the bank. She had basically run the 335 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: bank for two years, but she didn't work there, so 336 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: she couldn't be charged with its destruction, right, and Cassie 337 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: did what any high society lady would do at a 338 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: moment like this, She fell ill. Of course, that was 339 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 2: just a tactical retreat. That her doctor diagnosed her with 340 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 2: an antiquated term for anxiety should come as no surprise 341 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: to any listener, though she had defrauded multiple banks and 342 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 2: they were now all coming to collect. Of course, she 343 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: had some anxiety actually, when the Marshal showed up to 344 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: serve her in her hotel room where she rested, she said, 345 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it. I don't want to 346 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 2: hear it. Man, if only that line were for avoiding 347 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 2: news you don't want He served her a warrant for 348 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 2: her arrest. Madam, He said, you needn't be alarmed. It's 349 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: not as bad as it might be. Cassie Chadwick was 350 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: ultimately charged for conspiracy to misapply the funds of the 351 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: citizens National Bank of Oberlin, even though it was technically 352 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 2: a charge that only bankers could commit. Charles Beckwith knew 353 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: the jig was up when he heard about her arrest. 354 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 2: If Cassie hadn't been able to save herself, she wouldn't 355 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: be able to save him either. He was ready to 356 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 2: make a full confession now that he knew he had 357 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 2: lost his entire fortune. Meanwhile, Erie's lawyer unsealed the securities. 358 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: They were worthless. She had forged Carnegie's signature. One would 359 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 2: think at this point it would be time for Cassie 360 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: to give up the ghost, but she was tenacious. When 361 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: a reporter asked if she had a comment, she said, 362 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: it has done me much good to have so many 363 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: letters and telegrams from so many of my friends as 364 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 2: have reached me here, and she swore to repay all 365 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: the money. She thought, surely one of those friends that 366 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 2: she'd been so generous to would jump at the chance 367 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 2: to repay her kindness. Even as they took her to 368 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 2: the Tombs, New York City's prison, she thought for sure 369 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 2: that someone would come to her rescue. There were plenty 370 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: of men who didn't want her in prison. She was 371 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: in the tombs when she read that Eerie had opened 372 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: the securities and the bubble had burst. In the article, 373 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 2: the reporter noted, the errors are not gross, but are 374 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 2: such as a lawyer, doctor, or educated man would not make. 375 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: I know. 376 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: The writer meant that as an insult in her fraud. 377 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: It is certainly unethical and needed to be punished, but 378 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: it is quite a testament to how much someone will 379 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 2: overlook when they think it benefits them, or when they're 380 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 2: hearing what they want to hear. Basically, a small town 381 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: woman had defrauded her way into high society by using 382 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 2: the confidence of one rich man to bolster the next, 383 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: and she had done it for years. Ultimately, neither of 384 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 2: the banks ever reopened. Her husband, Leroy, was shocked at 385 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: the fraud. Even though he did not participate in it, 386 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: he had suffered its consequences. Unlike with her first husband, 387 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: Cassie had accrued these debts while she was married to Leroy, 388 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: so he was responsible for them. And I don't want 389 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: to point fingers here, because sweet le Roy certainly did 390 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: not deserve to lose his family home or all his wealth. 391 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: But this is why you need a prenup agreement, y'all, 392 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: because you are signing when when you get married. It's 393 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: just a matter of whether you want to write up 394 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: your own terms or default to the ones that the 395 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: government decided for you. Not only had Leroy lost everything, 396 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: but his daughter had also lost the inheritance from her 397 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: biological mother. The families of the other people that Cassie 398 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: swindled suffered as well, especially Charles Beckwith's widow and children 399 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: at his subsequent death. Let's talk about what Andrew Carnegie did. 400 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: He is really unaffiliated with this scandal, besides being rich 401 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 2: and famous, and yet a pastor in Oberlin wrote to 402 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: Carnegie about the bank closing. So many people lost their savings, 403 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 2: he said, but among them were many students. Many of 404 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: them were black students who needed them for their education. 405 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: Carnegie saw this opportunity as a moment to practice what 406 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: he preached. Those students had been hit with a hardship 407 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: that was truly through no fault of their own. He 408 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: wrote back asking for a list of the students and 409 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: townsfolk who had been affected. He specified to leave off 410 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: the business men, though, because they could take care of themselves. 411 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: Carnegie sent a check for fifteen thousand dollars for the 412 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: pastor to disperse. He also noticed that Oberlin College had 413 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: requested funds for a new library three years earlier. He 414 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: had rejected the request then, like he rejected most university libraries, 415 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: but now he donated one hundred and twenty five thousand 416 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: dollars to help them in their hour of need. Cassie 417 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: was ultimately finally convicted on the conspiracy charges. She was 418 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: sentenced to ten years in prison, and all her appeals 419 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: were denied. 420 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: Before she was. 421 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: Transferred in, though she was allowed to collect three thousand 422 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 2: dollars worth of possessions from her former home. With those 423 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: she decorated her prison cell. And now I'm excited to 424 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 2: share this talk I had with Annie Reid, author of 425 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: The Impostor Heiress Cassie Chadwick, the great Grifter of the 426 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: Gilded Age. 427 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: Here it is. 428 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: Hey, Annie, thank you so so much for coming to 429 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: talk to me about Cassie Chadwick. Real excited to get 430 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 2: your take on this imposter heiress. Congratulations on your book release. 431 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: So you're a historian, can you tell us about your 432 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: research methods and what kind of hacks you can share 433 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: with like normal people who like historical crime, and how 434 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: did they apply to Cassie Chadwicks. It was like a three. 435 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 3: Part thing right. 436 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 4: First of all, I want to say thanks so much 437 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 4: for having me. I love your podcast. It was with Cassie. 438 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 4: It was very much a learning curve and I feel 439 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: like I know so much more now than when I 440 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 4: started researching. It was a lot of newspaper articles, just 441 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 4: hundreds of pages. I have an outline that's two hundred 442 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 4: and seventy plus pages of just outlined the newspaper articles 443 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 4: from the different times that she was in trouble. Basically, 444 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 4: she made the news a lot. There was also I 445 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 4: went and read a bunch of her letters at the 446 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 4: Cleveland Historical Society. It was really cool to hold things 447 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 4: where her name was signed on the bottom and a 448 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,959 Speaker 4: lot of vital records like census records, city directories, blue books, 449 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 4: things like that. But I feel like now I have 450 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 4: a good idea of different online archives that like actually 451 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 4: have like Google Books. If you go to Google Books, 452 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 4: there's a lot of really old books that have just 453 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 4: been digitized. And I got to read these two different 454 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 4: memoirs of government officials who had dealt with her case, 455 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 4: and they talked about her case and their books. 456 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 3: So it was so cool to read it from the 457 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 3: other side. 458 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, that sounds fascinating. Were in one interview that 459 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: I think just came out. Her stationary was really expensive, 460 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: Like she had them embossed. 461 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 3: Yes, CLC. 462 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, they had her initials like in Boston the top. 463 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: It was so cool. 464 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 2: That is really cool. So do you have any favorite 465 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: newspaper archives that I can use your methods over? 466 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 4: Well, okay, so when they were just diving into something, 467 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 4: the place I always go is the Library of Congress, 468 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 4: So they have like all it's totally free and like 469 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 4: searchable by keyword, and like you can do combinations of 470 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 4: keywords that are like within fifty words, within one hundred words, 471 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 4: then five words. 472 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 3: I needed to go to. I needed the Cleveland specific. 473 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 4: Newspaper articles, so those were the Plain Dealer and the 474 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 4: Cleveland Leader, and those were all digitized as well. 475 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 2: Speaking of the newspapers that you found in the articles, 476 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: there's one line that really stuck out to me, like 477 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: after she got really busted for real, for real, which 478 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: and I can't remember exactly what where it was, but 479 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: the quote was, the errors are not gross, but are 480 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: such as a lawyer, doctor or educated man would not make. 481 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: And I think that was supposed to embarrass her, but 482 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 2: she tricked so many of them, like right, Like I 483 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: kind of liked her because she was better at the 484 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 2: game than the guys who had all of the access 485 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: to the education and were able to put it into use, 486 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: and she just gained them like better than her. So 487 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: I wanted to confirm, like she really had no formal training. 488 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,399 Speaker 4: Right, absolutely not, No, she had this like she went 489 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 4: to the local village school for like grade school and 490 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 4: then that was it. 491 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 2: And then how do you think she was able to 492 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: do it, like without access to all of these like anything, 493 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 2: how did she do it? 494 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 4: Do you think part of it? She was just absolutely 495 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 4: a natural con artist. She was so smart. She just 496 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 4: picked up on things real quickly. I read this quote 497 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 4: at my launch party. That was the society guy who 498 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 4: later said that, like if you talk to her, she'd 499 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 4: be able to talk about like, you know, foreign. 500 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 3: Affairs, art, literature, as though she'd been learning about. 501 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 4: These things her whole life and she just picked up 502 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 4: on them from being in the same room with people 503 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 4: or probably reading books. I don't really know about that, 504 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 4: but she picked up on things very quickly, so I 505 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 4: think that was part of this picking up on banking 506 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 4: and like legal jargon and stuff like that. 507 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 3: She also was running these cons from when she was 508 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 3: like twenty. 509 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 4: One years old, so I think she gets a little 510 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 4: more sophisticated each time, and she's learning and developing as 511 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 4: she goes along. 512 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 2: That makes sense to me too, because she you'd have 513 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 2: to be somewhat naturally intuitive to do to be like 514 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 2: a clairvoyant, you know, like she just al observes things 515 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 2: about people and like tells it back to them, right, 516 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: which is also kind of like a great stepping stone 517 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 2: into con artistry. 518 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, absolutely. 519 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 4: I mean it really honed her skills of like walking 520 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 4: into a room with strangers and like being able to 521 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 4: read them and talk to them. 522 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: So how famous was she both as like a con 523 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: artist and as just like this persona of Cassie Chadwick. Like, 524 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: how recognizable was her name because she changed it a 525 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 2: few times. 526 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 4: So when you got busted as Cassie Chadwick, people remembered 527 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 4: her prior bust and they didn't know that she was 528 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 4: that person Madame de. 529 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 3: Vere from Toledo, but. 530 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 4: They remembered that case because it made Cleveland newspapers and 531 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 4: Cleveland was very There were these very snotty little diatribes 532 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 4: in the paper about how like, well these Toledo bankers 533 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 4: don't know what's going on, and then. 534 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 3: She just does the same thing under a different name. 535 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 4: Asked Cansi Chadwick. She's decently well known in Cleveland for 536 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 4: just she was a very eccentric shopper. She was throwing 537 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 4: money around because she wanted everyone to know that she 538 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 4: had this endless supply of money, and then she was 539 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 4: going to these balls and parties. So she was pretty 540 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 4: well known in Cleveland for sure. And then afterwards, obviously 541 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 4: she was just national headlines every day for like a month, basically. 542 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 2: Right, I guess that makes sense, Like you would remember 543 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: the person who bought the musical plates, like you would remember. 544 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 4: That would be yeah, well clerks, they would fight over 545 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 4: who got to wait on her because she was so 546 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 4: generous and she bought so much, so they got really 547 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 4: big commissions. And then like she would also sometimes just 548 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 4: buy extra things for these department store girls because she 549 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 4: was throwing money around, so they would kind of fight 550 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 4: with each other to see who could wait on Cassie chet. 551 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I would have one hundred percent gotten 552 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 2: in like a hair pulling fight to be able to 553 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 2: go with all of her weird aesthetics and weird wants. 554 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 2: So once she went. 555 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: Down, what did they do? 556 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 2: Like, how did they react? It doesn't seem like they 557 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: had much of a reaction, but I know they had 558 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: to have, right. 559 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 4: I think Cleveland society really kind of tried to ignore it. 560 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 4: I think there was a lot of just not addressing 561 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 4: the entire thing. I know there were a lot of. 562 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 3: Men who she borrowed money from who just kind of 563 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 3: quietly took the loss. They didn't want to be connected 564 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 3: with her, they didn't want to be embarrassed. 565 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 4: It definitely would have been a social faux pas to 566 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 4: have held a ball and invited this woman who was 567 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 4: an ex convict and she came to your house and 568 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 4: you know, had launch or whatever. 569 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 3: There was a financial embarrassment and a social embarrassment. 570 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 4: I think, although there were some society women who attended 571 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 4: her trial on one of the days, they made him 572 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 4: note that these society ladies came to watch. 573 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: Is there anything you came across in your research that 574 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 2: you wanted to include in the book but couldn't really 575 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 2: corroborate enough to be like, yes, this is the facts. 576 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,399 Speaker 2: Is there any like anecdote that you wish you could 577 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 2: have included but couldn't necessarily factually get behind all the 578 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 2: way or support. 579 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 4: So in the introduction of my book, and then like 580 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 4: later on, I come back to the story full circle. 581 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 4: But she takes this lawyer to this to the Carnegie 582 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 4: mansion and goes inside the Carnegie mansion for a little 583 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 4: while and comes out, and she is trying to make 584 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 4: him think that she went to see Daddy and get 585 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 4: his signature on her legal document. 586 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 3: But what she does inside Carnegie mansion. 587 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 4: In later accounts, I would read a couple places that, oh, 588 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 4: she talked to the servants and said, I'm a society 589 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 4: lady and this maid is applying to work at my house. 590 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 4: She gave you guys as a reference, so I'm coming 591 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 4: to check on that. 592 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 3: And that was what she said when she was in there. 593 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 3: But the only. 594 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 4: Stories I got about that, like from the time of 595 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 4: when she was busted, Like the earliest stories were a 596 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 4: lot more bare bones than that, And I didn't feel 597 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 4: like I could actually include what she did in the 598 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 4: Carnegie House in the book, even though, like, I think 599 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 4: that's a plausible thing to say, but I think that 600 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 4: story kind of popped up later and kind of apart 601 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 4: from the lawyer telling the story to the newspapers at 602 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 4: the time. 603 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 2: Right, because he wouldn't have known what happened either, he assumed, no, 604 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 2: that she was telling the truth, right, No, yeah, right, Okay. 605 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 2: Is there anything I should have asked you about that 606 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: I didn't that you want to talk about? Do you 607 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 2: have it that you don't get asked a lot about 608 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 2: the book? 609 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 4: Uh. One thing that I loved talking about with Chadwick 610 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 4: that people don't know as much about is that she 611 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 4: was this pretty prolific jewel smuggler as well. So when 612 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 4: she was Kensey Chadwick, she would go to Europe all 613 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 4: the time. So that's what you did, and you vacation 614 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 4: in Europe, and she would bring over jewels and she 615 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,919 Speaker 4: didn't want to pay the ten percent duties on them, 616 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 4: so she would hide them when she was coming over. 617 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,879 Speaker 4: She would not declare them to customs officials, and then 618 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 4: you just would not be paying the duties. And she 619 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 4: actually the US government caught on in nineteen oh two 620 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 4: and they were surveilling her and trying to catch her, 621 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 4: and she ends up getting caught and having to turn 622 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 4: to her like network of friends and high places. 623 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 3: To get her out of it. 624 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 4: And I just thought that was so fascinating, and it's 625 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 4: just not something that's talked about in too many places. 626 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: It is fascinating because she could afford it, like she 627 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 2: could afford the custos duties she does didn't want to 628 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 2: she doesn't want to pay it. Yeah, no, no, that's awesome. 629 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 2: Where can our listeners find your work, where's the best 630 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 2: place to do it? And where can they follow you 631 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 2: to see what you're doing next? 632 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 4: So my book is pretty much everywhere online where books 633 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 4: are being sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble Thrift Books. And 634 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 4: you can look at our website ww dot authorannieread dot com. 635 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 3: Or follow me on Twitter. It's Underscore. 636 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 4: At Underscore, Annie read and then my Facebook is just 637 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:27,879 Speaker 4: author any Reid. 638 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: Well, thank you again so much for coming to talk 639 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 2: to us about Cassie Chadwick. Annie. Can't wait to see 640 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 2: what you do next. And I hope that this book 641 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 2: is wildly successful because I loved it. 642 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 3: Thank you. 643 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,800 Speaker 2: Join me next week on the Greatest True Crime Stories 644 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: Ever Told For our episode on the Criminal Cremators. David 645 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 2: Scott's was the third generation in a family funeral home business, 646 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 2: and he was anxious to revolutionize the business to maximize 647 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 2: their profits, so he turned to some unorthodox criminal methods, 648 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,439 Speaker 2: all of which he might have shied away from if 649 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 2: they hadn't been endorsed by his mother. I'd like to 650 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 2: shout out a few key sources that made it possible 651 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 2: for me to tell this week's story, especially Annie Reid's 652 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 2: book The Impostor Heiress Cassie Chadwick, The Greatest Grifter of 653 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 2: the Gilded Age. We also got a lot of information 654 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 2: from Karen Abbott's Smithsonian article The High Priestess of Fraudulent Finance. 655 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 2: Both of them and all our other sources are linked 656 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 2: in our show notes. The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever 657 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: Told is a production of Diversion Audio. I'm Mary Kay 658 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 2: mcbraer and I hosted this episode. I also wrote this episode. 659 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 2: Our show is produced by Emma Dmouth and edited by 660 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 2: Antonio Enriquez. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Executive produced by 661 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 2: Scott Waxman.