1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: When Donald Trump is a full on birther promoting this 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: racist conspiracy theory. 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 2: He goes to Las Vegas. 4 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Mitt Romney does and accepts Trump's endorsement, hugs him, says 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: how excited he is, and praises Trump. So here is 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: good old decent Mitt Romney validating Donald Trump, the racist 7 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist. So yes, Mitt, it was always there, and 8 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: yes you helped. 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 10 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 3: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 11 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 3: living undercover all around the. 12 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 4: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA, 13 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 4: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 14 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 3: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 15 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 3: created conspiracies. 16 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 4: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 17 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 4: weren't true. 18 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 3: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 19 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 3: news almost every day. 20 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 4: We'll break them down for you to determine whether they 21 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 4: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 22 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mission Implausible. 23 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 5: All right, guys, my new favorite show with slow horses. 24 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 5: Have you watched slow horses? 25 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: I love slow horses. 26 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 4: I'm suing them though you are, Yeah, because it's about 27 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 4: a you know, incompetent older intelligence officers and are like, that's. 28 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: Clearly why that's my life story they're talking about. 29 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 5: If you haven't seen it, I mean you guys have, 30 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 5: But it's about a group of sort of failed intelligence 31 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 5: officers who aren't fired there. 32 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: It could be genre. It's interesting. 33 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 3: It came from a writer who has no experience in intelligence, 34 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: and it's interested Like slow Horses comes up, but it's 35 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: not realistic. But the sort of painful bureaucratic stuff that 36 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 3: happens in there does feel realistic, even though the fact 37 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: that people are getting shot on the streets of London doesn't. 38 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 5: I mean that it does give an impression of a 39 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 5: lot of choices happen because of like higher ups making 40 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 5: political moves and bureaucratic sleeping with. 41 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: Each other and trying to screw each other. 42 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 4: So let's get into conspiracy theories and who entertains them 43 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:55,919 Speaker 4: in our politics and why. 44 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,639 Speaker 3: We've spoken some about how conspiracies have started to infect 45 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: our poll politics. We've spoken also about how foreign enemies 46 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: are weaponizing conspiracies, and so I think we should dig 47 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 3: into how specifically they're being used in the political system. 48 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 5: Right now, this has been a big issue within journalism. 49 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 5: We call it both sideism, where whatever the issue is, 50 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 5: you know, if someone's saying climate change is real, we 51 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 5: have to find someone who says climate change isn't real. 52 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 5: It's really hard for journalists when there really is not 53 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 5: both sides, certainly not too equal sides. So it's not 54 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 5: to say no democrat at all has ever thought of 55 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 5: a conspiracy theory, you know, because there's lots of them, 56 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 5: but clearly as a tool of power, a tool of influence, 57 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 5: Republicans and Republican leaning media is just way over indexed. 58 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 5: So I think it would be a disservice to the 59 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 5: truth to pretend this is some kind of bipartisan issue 60 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 5: right now. 61 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 3: So today I want to welcome David Korn. David's a 62 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 3: prolific journalist and author. He's presently the Washington bureau chief 63 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 3: for Mother Jones magazine, and he's written about conspiration to 64 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 3: see some real some not in books and articles for decades, 65 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: everything from the CIA to JFK assassination, the Iraq invasion, 66 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 3: Trump and Russia. 67 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: It was really really great to have you here. 68 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: Good to do with you, guys. 69 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 3: So we want to talk a little bit about conspiracies 70 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 3: taking over our political space. Conspiracies have always seemed to 71 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 3: have been in politics, but it seems to be an 72 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 3: increasing problem. The world's richest man is now a conspiracy theorist, 73 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: and one of our political parties relies on conspiracies to 74 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: keep their followers angry and confused. And it seems like 75 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: now they're not even doing just to attract voters, because 76 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 3: more and more actual conspiracy theorists themselves are getting elected. 77 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 3: So the question really is why Republicans, more than Democrats, 78 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 3: at least at this point, seem to embrace conspiracy theories. 79 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: That's a really good question. I wrote a book came 80 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: out last year that it's called American Psychosis, historical investigation 81 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: of how the Republican Party went crazy. And it's been 82 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: very easy for us to focus on what's happened the 83 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: last couple of years with Donald Trump, who rose to 84 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: power as a conspiracy theorist pushing the racist birth conspiracy 85 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: theory about Barack Obama. Correct, but this is very similar 86 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: to the nineteen fifties when the Republican Party was almost 87 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: destroyed at the end of World War Two because they'd 88 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: been isolationist and it had been pro business during the depression, 89 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: it really had no standing. It grasped this new conspiracy theory, 90 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: which was McCarthyism, that the Democrats and even Republicans were 91 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: doing the bidding of the Soviet Union. And McCarthy even 92 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: accused George C. Marshall, who was Eisenhower's Defense secretary, the 93 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: guy who helped win the war a few years earlier, 94 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: he now said that he was a Communist agent in 95 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: a conspiracy. There's the word right, so immense that it 96 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: was almost unfathomable, and the Republican Party rallied around Joe McCarthy. Eisenhower, 97 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: when he was running for president, wanted to denounce McCarthy, 98 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: but his advisors talked him out of it, and he 99 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: hated the guy, but publicly didn't do much to push 100 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: that off. So there are a lot of reasons why 101 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: the Republican Party establishment, even though they disparaged McCarthy privately 102 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: thought he was a charlatan and a drunk, went along 103 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: with this, And so it's kind of in the DNA 104 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: of the party. What we see with Trump and his 105 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories is that they're often designed to turn your 106 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: political opponents or some opposing force into an ultimate evil. 107 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: It's basically a process of othering. So QAnon democrats aren't 108 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: bad because of their policies. They're bad because they're killing babies, 109 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: trafficking and sects in their pedophiles, and they want to 110 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: create a one world government. It's this notion of the 111 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: enemy within, which often is the heart of conspiracy theories. 112 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: If you go this is what Barry Goward did in 113 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four. He cut a deal with a John 114 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: Birch society. They were in favor of him because he 115 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: was a far right candidate. They were paranoid, wackos. They 116 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: were McCarthyism on steroids. The leader of the Birches believed 117 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: that Eisenhower himself had been a Communist agent, and the 118 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: Communists that infiltrated every pta, every church, every union, every 119 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: media outlet, and they were responsible for the rise of 120 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: abstract art, you know, an avant garde theater, and of 121 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: course we're behind the civil rights movement and the anti 122 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: war movement. Obviously, they were wackos, and so he brought 123 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: him into the party and they kind of stayed there. 124 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: David, I love the historical precedents on this. 125 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 4: I mean, you could take it back to the Know 126 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 4: Nothing Party right eighteen fifties in the United States, where 127 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 4: it was the Whigs were claiming that the new Catholic 128 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 4: immigrants were at the best of the pope and were 129 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 4: taking over. 130 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: So what's your sense. 131 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 4: Of the difference between now and something that seems to 132 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 4: be a constant in either US politics or in the 133 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 4: way human beings, you know, process information. 134 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: Instead of those pamphlets that were being handed out with 135 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: the John Birch Society, we have this free flow of 136 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: information and you have Donald Trump tweeting a q Andon influencer, 137 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: Elon Musk doing that and literally hundreds of thousands, if 138 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: not millions, of people see it instantaneously. Donald Trump's core 139 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: narrative was conspiracy oriented that people were out to get him, 140 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: the deep State you are proud members of were out 141 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: to get him, and everything was a conspiracy against him. 142 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: And then he tried to make it about well, that 143 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: means they're against you as well as voters. 144 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: So you've mentioned Trump and I'm trying to reach back. 145 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 4: There's been so much he retweeted, so I don't know 146 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 4: whether that means he believes it, but he's sort of 147 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 4: serving it up to people who want to know what 148 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 4: he thinks, but there was a retweet of I think 149 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 4: it was that bin Laden was still alive and he 150 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 4: was being held by the US government and all the 151 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 4: people who were involved in the killing of bin Laden 152 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 4: they were all killed. I don't think today anybody believes that. 153 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: And yet this was. 154 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 4: Put out if he paid no price for it with 155 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 4: the stuff that comes out sometimes fire host wise, do 156 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 4: you think people really believe it or is it almost 157 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 4: sort of like a nihilism you can believe anything and 158 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 4: nothing at the same time. 159 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: That's a really good question, you know. I did this 160 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: book with Mike Gizikov called Hubris about the selling of 161 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: the Iraq War, and one debate I have over and 162 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: over again with people is whether George Bush lied when 163 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: he said that Iraq had WMD's and so is it 164 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: you know, George Costanza, Seinfeld, Jerry, Remember, it's not a 165 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: lie if you believe it, right, right? And so did 166 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: they believe this? Cheney said things that were demonstrably untrue 167 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: about the intelligence. As you get to Donald Trump, it 168 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: becomes even more intriguing because he is such a liar. 169 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: He lies about everything. Does he have a conception of 170 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: truth like the rest of us in which one could 171 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: say that he is lying or is he just not 172 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: believe in anything resembling the truth. 173 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 3: But let's go back quickly to the Joseph McCarthy and 174 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: sort of the history of how the party became this way. 175 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 3: In all conspiracies are in many conspiracies, there's a neuggative 176 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 3: truth that the conspiracy is built around. And with Joseph McCarthy, 177 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 3: who was claiming there was red spies throughout the government, 178 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 3: in fact, there were a lot of spies in the 179 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: government at the time we now know with Whitiker Chambers 180 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 3: brought up things the atomic program was riddled with spies. 181 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 3: In fact, when Truman became president, arguably Stalin knew more 182 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: about the US atomic program than Truman did. There were 183 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 3: spies in the USS there were spies in the State Department, 184 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 3: there were spies in the Treasury Department, there were spies 185 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 3: in the White House. Of course, it wasn't anything like 186 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: what Justin McCarthy and his followers were spewing, but there 187 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: was a neuggative truth there that sort of this was 188 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: all built on. 189 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: Let me kind of siddle up to your question by 190 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: also reminding people that back in the nineties, the Conservatives 191 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: and Republicans unleashed this fusillade of conspiracy theory against the Clintons. 192 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: Remember Vince Foster, Yeah, right right. 193 00:09:58,920 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: There are all the. 194 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: Stuff about how the Clintons killed Vince Foster, and also 195 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: how the Clintons killed dozens of other people. 196 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: You know. 197 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: Jerry Fowell, the leader of something called the Moral Majority, 198 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: which helped elect Ronald Reagan president in nineteen eighty, was 199 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: out there with a video claiming that the Clintons, on 200 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: their way to power, had killed dozens of people. And 201 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: there was also the conspiracy theory that they were running 202 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: a drug operation on the Arkansas. And yet people like 203 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: Nut Ginridge before and after he became speaker, and even 204 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: good old Bob Dole saying we need to look into 205 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: these things, you know. And Rush Lumbaugh was you know, 206 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: writing high at that point, who was a drug addict. Yeah, 207 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: he was a drug actut Yeah, and he was out 208 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: there giving voice and spreading all these Clinton conspiracy theories. 209 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: The nugget of truth was that Vince Foster did indeed 210 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: commit suicide. With Trump and bertherism, there was nothing. There 211 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: was a guy who made a claim. As a writer, 212 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: what I'm always conscious of is that everybody likes a 213 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: good story. Donald Trump has made money by telling people 214 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: that you could become rich if you go to Trump University. 215 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: Alex Jones was a great showman, and he started as 216 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: a late night radio host talking about this stuff in 217 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: the wee hours, which is some perfect time to do 218 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: it and to find hundreds of thousands of people. And 219 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: then you know, all these companies selling survival seeds, you know, 220 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: advertise with him and he makes a lot of money. 221 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: Let's take a break, we'll be right back, and we're back. 222 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 3: So, David, I'm sure you saw this Atlantic article about 223 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: Mitt Romney, but one of the things that he said 224 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: is that there are other senators like Hawley and Cruz 225 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 3: in vance who know better, but they use disinformation or 226 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 3: conspiracies or what have you. They exploit them. In other words, 227 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 3: they know the stuff they're saying is lies, but they 228 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: know it benefits them. So I want to talk a 229 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 3: little bit about how people are purposely exploiting conspiracies. And 230 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: I think back to twenty sixteen when you did excellent 231 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: reporting on Russia and Steve Bannon's Cambridge Analytica was taking 232 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: massive information from Facebook data and they were using that 233 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 3: to identify and target people with neurotic and conspiratorial dispositions, 234 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 3: and then they were purposely disseminating propaganda to deepen and 235 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: accentuate those traits. In other words, they were finding angry 236 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 3: right wing people who never voted, and they were pumping 237 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 3: disinformation to them to get them even more angry to 238 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 3: get out and vote. And so they were creating this 239 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: machine to contaminate America with paranoia in order to get votes. 240 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: And so how would you explain now these groups? And 241 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 3: we're talking mostly about Republicans now, but you know, there's RFK, 242 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: there's Cornel West, there's these other people on the left 243 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 3: that know better but are exploiting conspiracies and disinformation for 244 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: their own purpose or for political purpose. 245 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what you do other then call the massholes. 246 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: I mean, seriously, there are people who know better. 247 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 3: So what do you think about Mitt Romney in his position? 248 00:12:58,760 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: Now, First I. 249 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: Should say I feel a bond with Mitt Romney because 250 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: I was the reporter who broke the story of the 251 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: forty seven percent remarks in twenty twelve that caused his 252 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,599 Speaker 1: campaign a fair amount of difficulty, and it's one of 253 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: the biggest stories I've done in my career, so I 254 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: feel kind of tied to the guy. I know, people 255 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: know him, and as I've said, you know, I think 256 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: in some ways he's a decent fellow. But at some 257 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: point he says, I want to know whether the elements 258 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: of trump Ism have always been within the party and 259 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: whether the GOP establishment, meaning him, helped enable that or 260 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: encourage that. And the answer is yes, and yes, I 261 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: mean that's the whole point of my book. It was 262 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: always there, and that people like NT and others used 263 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: it to their advantage but also turned a bit of 264 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 1: a blind eye to it and thought, once we get elected, 265 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: we can shove these people to the side. And you know, 266 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: the best example is in twenty twelve, when he's running 267 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: for president and when Donald Trump is a full on 268 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: birther promoting this race's conspiracy theory. He goes to Las Vegas. 269 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: Mitt Romney does and accepts Trump's endorsement, hugs him, says 270 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: how excited he is, and praises Trump. So here is good, 271 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: old decent Knit Romney validating Donald Trump, the racist conspiracy theorist. 272 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: So yes, Mitt, it was always there, and yes, hands 273 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: me to say this, but you helped and when I 274 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: look at these people that you mentioned, John, I mean, 275 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how they sleep at night. I've been 276 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: at hearings with Jim Jordan and he just says things 277 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: again that are not true. And I know a few 278 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: times I'd gone up to him or Mark Meadows when 279 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: Medals was in congressizing, you know what you just said 280 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: was not true. It's not what the report says, and 281 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: they would say, no, it's true, it's true. It's true. 282 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's there's Bartolini's law, and I'm trying to remember 283 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 4: exactly how that goes. 284 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: And it's the other word. 285 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 4: The other term for it is the asymmetric principle, Right 286 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 4: that it's much quicker to make up a fact, and 287 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 4: it's exponentially more difficult and takes more time to show 288 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 4: that fact to not be true, to actually do a 289 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 4: Snopes on it. Right, you know, you can make stuff 290 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 4: up and no one has comes back and checks on it. 291 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: Later, they say who just they say a democratic president 292 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: is going to take your guns. They come in, they 293 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 3: didn't take the guns. Next one comes in, they're going 294 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: to take your guns. 295 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: They're like no. In the Obama years, this right winger 296 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: who Trump hardened de Nesh de Susan did movies and 297 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: documentaries about Obama's secret plan to impose the dictatorship direct 298 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: the economy. Well, still waiting. I'm still waiting for flying 299 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: cars too, And so he got that totally wrong. 300 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 4: When I was younger in the seventies, the mid seventies, 301 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 4: I went to Germany as a young man and I 302 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 4: had this one conversation I'll never forget. It was a 303 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 4: small town in Bavaria, and I was talking to somebody 304 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 4: who was an elderly gentleman in his eighties, but he 305 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 4: admitted that he was in this small town. He was 306 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 4: a Nazi in the Nazi Party, and he had a 307 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 4: position of influence in this small town called Fussen. And 308 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 4: I asked him, ah, you know, how did you you know? 309 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: He says, I never really believed. 310 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 4: It, the conspiracy theories behind it, the Jewish conspiracy and 311 00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 4: all the rest of it. And I said, well, how 312 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 4: could you be in the party and hold a position? 313 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 4: He said, well, if I didn't do it, then the 314 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 4: real Nazis, the people to be afraid of, would be there. 315 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 4: So I look at Lindsey Graham as one person, I'm like, 316 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 4: is this what he's thinking? I mean, if I don't 317 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 4: get on this train, then somebody who really believes this 318 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 4: stuff will get on, and that would be much worse. 319 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: Right, That's what Jim Kelly and Rense, previous people were 320 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: chiefs of staff Trump have explicitly said that they wanted 321 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: to be guardrails. And it sure seems that everybody who 322 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: went in thinking they could do that were proven wrong. 323 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: I mean, the one thing that comes to me, and 324 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: I don't think we have an answer, is like what 325 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 3: broke McCarthyism. 326 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: You know, McCarthyism in a small way was broken by McCarthy. 327 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: He ran hearings that ended up being foolish, and it 328 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: was seen from being mean spirited and hate driven, and 329 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: he was drinking a lot, and he kind of like 330 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: sowed the seeds of his own destruction. But the notion 331 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: of commy plot, some version blacklists, all that continued on 332 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: without McCarthy well into the fifties, sixties, and seventies. In 333 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: the eighties, you even had Ronald Reagan redbaiting the nuclear 334 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: freeze movement, putting out material that his own FBI said 335 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: wasn't true, that the freeze movement was being controlled out 336 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: of Moscow. So McCarthy has lived on as an impulse 337 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: within American politics, and so that's why I say trump 338 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: Ism will live on with or without Donald Trump. So 339 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: there's no going back. The question is whether the party collapses, 340 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: whether it continues in a trumpy fashion, if there's some 341 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: external event that changes things. But for now, I think 342 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: the immediate future, in the near future, I think the 343 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: technical term is that the Republican Party is fucked. 344 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 3: David, is there any sense that you have of how 345 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 3: much of this is being manipulated or used by Republicans 346 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 3: that know better and how much of it is about 347 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: actual believers? So is there any sense that you have? 348 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: That is such a difficult question to answer because I 349 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: do ponder it almost on a daily basis. Do they 350 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: really believe that Russia did not attack? Do they really 351 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: believe the election was stolen? Do they really believe that 352 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: the deep state is plotting against Trump? On an hourly basis, 353 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: do they really believe that ever at president is going 354 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: to come in and impose a dictatorship or take guns away? 355 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: It's do they really believe? Marjorie tail A Green that 356 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: Ukrainians are harvesting the organs of children, which is now 357 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: per reason for opposing military assistance to Ukraine. Does Tucker 358 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: Carlson believe the US was working with secret biological weapons 359 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: labs in Ukraine and that's why Putin had to invade? 360 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: There was something interesting that happened a couple of years back, 361 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: and that's all. These text messages came out from Paul 362 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: Manifort's phone, And he was working with the Russians or 363 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: in touch with the Russian during the twenty sixteen campaign 364 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: while he was CEO or chief executive of the Trump 365 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: campaign and was later deemed to be a counterintelligence threat 366 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: by the Bipartisan sent Intelligence Committee for what he did 367 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: with the Russians during the campaign. But he was texting 368 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: to and from Sean Hannity, and Sean Hannity was on 369 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: talking about all the Russian stuff was fogus, a hoax, 370 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: and Manafort was writing in saying, you're right. You're doing 371 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: such a great job, Sean, And you know they want 372 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: me to say all these things they implicate Trump and 373 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it, And Sean was writing 374 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: back then, you are a hero, Paul Manafort. You are 375 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: a hero for standing firm and not letting anyone buy 376 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: this bullshit about Russia, and I realized they really they 377 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: seem to believe this. 378 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: So David, based on that point, we actually have a 379 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 3: dramatic reading for you here. It's a selection of texts 380 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 3: between Sean Hannity and Paul Manifort. Brendan Jennings is going 381 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 3: to be reading the part of Sean Hannity and Mark 382 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 3: Raiderman will be reading the part of Paul Manafort. 383 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 6: Please know you're in my prayers. 384 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 7: Thank you. I need them. I feel so violated from 385 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 7: what I'm seeing today. 386 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 6: There are so many obvious crimes that are not being 387 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 6: investigated AJRC nothing. I am truly frightened for the future 388 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 6: of this country. We love, God help us in a 389 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 6: world if we don't get all this straightened out. I 390 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 6: pray that God give you the grace and peace in 391 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 6: this difficult moment. I sadly know from experience that in 392 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 6: times like these, friends will abandon you. The apostles Peter Jesus, 393 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 6: they showed us this. Know this very hard, stand tall 394 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 6: and strong in my prayers. 395 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: Sean. 396 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 6: Did you see last night? 397 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 7: Yes, very clever Pierro sort of God Heraldo missed it. 398 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 6: Yes, she is smart. I know and have great attorneys 399 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 6: that I now keep on retainer to help and protect me. 400 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 6: There has never been a time thirty years Radio twenty 401 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 6: two on Fox where I felt a bull's eye is 402 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 6: at my head every single day. 403 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 7: I hope Potus understands your point. 404 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 6: I tell them a lot, real lot, brutal, honest relationship, 405 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 6: and I'll say it all on air. 406 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 7: Your attitude keeps you free. 407 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 6: Are you up? 408 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 7: Just saw your last text? They have a ratchet up 409 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 7: pressure on me with this bs on my bail. 410 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 6: My brother thinking about you. Merry Christmas in twenty eighteen 411 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 6: is the year of exposing the truth. 412 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 7: John, Your ears must have been burning. Just told my 413 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 7: relatives how you will not give up? 414 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 8: Ever? 415 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 6: You watching? 416 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 7: Yes, I love you. You're the best that was powerful. In 417 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 7: a fair world, you would get a Pulitzer for your 418 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 7: incredible reporting. 419 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 6: Lol. I'll take those assholes going to jail. How you. 420 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 6: I am disgusted at this corruption. It should not happen 421 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 6: in the USA. I can tell you Potus is disgusted too. 422 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 7: I live in a nightmare every day, but I won't 423 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 7: give in it. 424 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 6: Tell Paul and they don't give a shit. 425 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 7: They relish it. Great interview with Rudy tonight. You are 426 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 7: so important to saving our country. 427 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 6: Hillary belongs in jail. 428 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 7: I am really proud to be associated with you against 429 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:01,479 Speaker 7: these bad people. 430 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 6: These are bad people. 431 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 7: And they are destroying our country. 432 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 6: Either we win or welcome to Venezuela or worse. 433 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 4: Pure and simple, I think that's pretty self explanatory. It's 434 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 4: sort of, you know, too, conment trying to cont each other, right. 435 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, one of them looking for money, one of them 436 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 3: looking to go on a show, which is also money 437 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 3: for him. So you know, it's interesting they both have 438 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: the same political bent, but they're also trying to benefit 439 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: financially off of it. 440 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 4: I'd like to know, and I don't recall from this 441 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 4: whether this is after or before. Paul Manifort, in his book, 442 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 4: admits that he was working with Constantine Khalimnik, a Russian 443 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 4: intelligence officer, while he was on the Trump campaign. 444 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 3: Passing campaign data to a billionaire. 445 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 4: And passing confidential data that the Russians can operationalize and 446 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 4: the FBI is watching. Now he's admitted that this guy 447 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 4: is an agent of Russian intelligence if he's working with 448 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 4: them and not telling anybody. 449 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 3: I think we knew that before he admitted it, but 450 00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 3: none of us. 451 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 4: And who let off who gave this guy a pardon? 452 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 4: I don't want to go there, but we all know 453 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 4: who that is. 454 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: I think we're seeing a little bit behind the scenes 455 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 3: of the kind of stuff that we see actually out 456 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 3: in front. And that's what's sort of right odd about 457 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: this is the conspiratorial thinking has become just part and 458 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 3: parcel of the politics. Like these people are publicly saying 459 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 3: things that in the past would have been at best 460 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: hidden if they actually believe these things. 461 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 4: But now, as someone you know, as you and I, 462 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 4: as people who've actually like unraveled conspiracies against us, and 463 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 4: as someone who's been involved in national security and you 464 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: and counterintelligence issues, those are things that I would be 465 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 4: worried about as actual conspiracies. When you've got a you know, 466 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 4: someone that close to the president who is secretly working 467 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 4: with the Russians, or whose national security advisor is lying 468 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 4: to the FBI about his connections to the Russians, or 469 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 4: about his foreign policy advisor telling the Australians that the 470 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 4: Russians are operating against the Democrats. All of these things 471 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 4: come together and I see a pattern that you know 472 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 4: could be a conspiracy. 473 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: Well, the Russian intelligence services have had decades and decades 474 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 3: of experience playing these conspiratorial games and using they have 475 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 3: terms for all of these people, useful idiots or whatever 476 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 3: to do their bidding. And so in a lot of ways, 477 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 3: you know, Sean Hannity and Paul Manniford are sort of 478 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 3: like mice that the Kremlin cat can just play with 479 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 3: to achieve its goals. 480 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 4: Let's take a breather and back in a moment. 481 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: And we're back when you see. Like the Ginny Thomas 482 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: texts to Mark Meadows, I wrote about her conspiracy theories 483 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: back in twenty thirteen, over a decade ago. Now I 484 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: got access to some memos from a group that she 485 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: was running at the time, and so she's writing to 486 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: Mark Meadows and she has promoted other conspiracy theories previously, 487 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: so she does believe it. 488 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 4: We have a dramatic reading of a selection of Mark 489 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 4: Meadows and Genny Thomas protects Greg Hess as Mark Meadows 490 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 4: and Lily Sullivan as Genny Thomas. 491 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 9: Watermark ballads and over twelve states have been part of 492 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 9: a huge Trump and military white hat sting operation. In 493 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 9: twelve key battleground states, Biden crime family and ballot fraud 494 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 9: co conspirators, elected officials, bureaucrats, social media censorship mongers, fake 495 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 9: stream media reporters, etc. Are being arrested and detained for 496 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 9: ballot fraud right now and overcoming days, and we'll be 497 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 9: living in barges off gim to face military tribunals. Per Sedition. 498 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 9: Do not concede. It takes time for the army who 499 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 9: is gathering for his back. 500 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 7: Mark. 501 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 9: I wanted to text you and tell you for days 502 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 9: that you are in my prayers. Help this great president 503 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 9: stand firm. 504 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 8: Mark. 505 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 9: The majority knows Biden and the Left is attempting the 506 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 9: greatest hests of our history. 507 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 10: I will stand firm. We will fight until there is 508 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 10: no fight left. Our country is too precious to give 509 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 10: up on. Thanks for all you do. 510 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 9: Tearing up and praying for you guys. Oh proud to 511 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 9: know you just forwarded to your Gmail an email I 512 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 9: sent Jared This am Sydney Powell. An improved coordination now 513 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 9: will help the cavalry come and fraud exposed and America saved. Mark, 514 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 9: don't want to wake you. Sounds like Sydney and her 515 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 9: team are getting inundated with evidence of fraud. Make a plan, 516 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 9: release the kraken and save us from the Left taking 517 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 9: America down. 518 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: Made that way probably bias. 519 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 9: Tears are flowing at what Rudy is doing right now. 520 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 10: This is a fight of good versus evil. Evil always 521 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 10: looks like the victor until the king of King's triumphs. 522 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 10: Do not grow weary and well doing the fight continues. 523 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 10: I've staked my career on it, well, at least my 524 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 10: time in DC on it. 525 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 9: Thank you needed that. This plus a conversation with a 526 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 9: best friend just now, I will try to keep holding 527 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 9: on America is worth it. We are living through what 528 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 9: feels like the end of America amazing times, the end 529 00:26:58,359 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 9: of liberty. 530 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 3: Boy, when I hear that, you know, we talk about conspiracies, 531 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 3: we talk about politicians using information for political benefit or 532 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 3: sometimes for personal financial benefit. Boy, and these guys sound 533 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 3: like true believers. They sound like they actually believe this stuff, 534 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 3: which is oftentimes not what we think is happening behind 535 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 3: the scenes. 536 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is cult stuff. 537 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 4: I mean, it's okay to believe things if you have evidence, 538 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 4: but if you have no evidence or the evidence. 539 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: Is so bad. 540 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 4: You know, Italy Gate, Italian s satellites Steel. In the election, 541 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 4: there was a congressman named Bob English. He was from 542 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 4: South Carolina, he was like a ninety nine percent conservative rating. 543 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 4: This is like in the early two thousand and nine period. 544 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 4: Twenty ten, he cared about climate change. He thought it 545 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 4: was real, and he came up with a whole plan, 546 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 4: a conservative plan for Republicans, you know, private enterprise based, 547 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 4: free market solutions, met with a House Republican caucus, presented 548 00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 4: it to is two hundred and some other Republicans. Crickets, crickets, 549 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 4: thank you very. 550 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: Much, Bob. Don't send anything, no questions. He was up 551 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: for election, as they all were in twenty ten. This 552 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: is the tea party period. He goes down to his 553 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: district in South Carolina and people are saying to him, 554 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: how come you're not calling Obama a socialist. He goes, well, 555 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: I disagree with the guy. I'm almost everything, and I 556 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: criticize his pology, but you know he's a socialist who 557 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: wants to take over America already president. But he goes, well, 558 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: I don't find that useful. I'm going to go with 559 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 1: him on the facts. Well, we're not sure we're with you. 560 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: Then if you don't say he's a socialist wants to 561 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: destroy the country. And as the year goes on, things 562 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: get worse, And he talked about one particular meeting at 563 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: a house meeting with some of his previous supporters, and 564 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: they said, well, what about that number in the back 565 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: of your Social Security card? What number in the back 566 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: of your Social Security card? They go, you know that 567 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: number that shows what camp you're going to be sent to? 568 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: And he says, well, I'm not sure that's what it means. 569 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 11: Well, if you don't know that, if you're unaware of that, 570 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 11: why should we send you back to Washington. He ended 571 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 11: up being destroyed in the Republican primary by a guy 572 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 11: named Trey Goudi, who went on to run all those 573 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 11: Benghazi hearings and all the Benghazi conspiracy theories and all that. 574 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 11: But in some ways, intent doesn't matter. It's the action 575 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 11: that matters. I mean, motives are good for understanding and 576 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 11: maybe for dealing with. But at the end of the day, 577 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 11: Lindsey Graham is doing what Lindsay Graham is doing. Whether 578 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 11: he believes it or not. We can use that to 579 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 11: judge him. But he's still out there helping a guy 580 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 11: who wants to impose an authoritarian regime should he get 581 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 11: back in the White House. 582 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: This has been a real treat. It really has. I've 583 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: really enjoyed this. 584 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: Well, thank you guys, it's been very interesting talking to you, 585 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: particularly with your perspective from the inner sanctum of the 586 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: deep state. 587 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: The deep State. 588 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 3: Well, a big thank you to David Korn for spending 589 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 3: so much time with us today. He's been covering these 590 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 3: issues for decades and we really really appreciate it. And 591 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 3: so that's all for today with Mission Implausible. 592 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 593 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 8: and Jonathan Stern. 594 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 595 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable, Mention and Abominable 596 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 8: Pictures for iHeartMedia.