1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi, This is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the presidential race. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: In my members only Inner Circle Club, you'll receive special 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports from 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: me and my team. Here is a special offer for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. Join my Inner Circle today at Newtcentercircle 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast, and if you sign up for 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: a one or two year membership, you'll get ten percent 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: off your membership price and a VIP fast pass to 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: my live events. Join my Inner Circle today at Newtcenter 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Circle dot com slash podcast use the Code podcast at checkout. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway spires February fourteenth, 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: on this episode of News World, I have a new 17 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: novel coming out called Collusion, which I co wrote with Pete. Early. 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: In the novel, our main character is Brett Garrett, a 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: Navy seal who is injured in a helicopter crash and 20 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: autumnly recovers and becomes a ciage and is able to 21 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: thwart a Russian poisoning attempt. In order to have a 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: little bit of fun between the plot line of the 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: book in real life, I thought it would be great 24 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: to do an entire podcast on Russia's fascination with poison 25 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: as a weapon. Russia is one of the few countries 26 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: in the world that assassinates their opponents by poison. I 27 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: thought we'd explore the most nefarious and ruthless Russian murder plots. 28 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to welcome my guests Pete Early, my co 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: author of Collusion, Amy Knight, author of Orders to Kill 30 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: the Putin Regime and Political Murder, and Jack Divine, a 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: thirty two year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency, currently 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: the founding partner and president of the Arkan Group, which 33 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: specializes in international crisis management. I'm really delighted that my 34 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: co author Petere Earle could join us because he's had 35 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: an amazing career daily newspaper reporter, including at The Washington Post, 36 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: written a number of books, spent a year at Fort 37 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: Leavenworth at the prison studying being a prisoner and looking 38 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: at drugs and mental illness in prison. Has written several 39 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: books on Soviet agents and defectors and Americans who were 40 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: spying for the Soviets. So Pete brings to Collusion an 41 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: amazing range of background. Well, I'm absolutely thrilled to be 42 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: here and having you compliment me, considering what your life 43 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: and all the things that you've accomplished and done, it's very, 44 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: very thoughtful and kind of you. That they I loved 45 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: about this collaboration was that from the start you said 46 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: to me that you not only wanted to tell a 47 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: gripping Washington based story, but you want to educate people 48 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: and you want to take on current events, and that 49 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: kind of is a theme we haven't shied away from. 50 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: I mean we inclusion. We talk about Antifa, we talk 51 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: about struggles our country you're having now about Confederate monuments. 52 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: We cover a wide birth of issues, including Russian poisoning, 53 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: that many novelists would be afraid to get into. And 54 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: I think that's a real tribute to you in your knowledge, 55 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: but also the intense dedication you have as a historian 56 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: to use facts to convey a larger story. Through fiction, 57 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: you bring both reality about Russia and putin reality about 58 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: the spy business, where you have spent a lot of time. 59 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: Part of what infused our idea of writing this novel. 60 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: We wrote Collusion in a particular way because we're both 61 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: making a case about the Russians. I want to make 62 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: a point in there's not about the Russians generically, it's 63 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: about the Russians under Putin, who's a very particular kind 64 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: of personality. In addition, we wanted to introduce people to 65 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: thinking in a much more complex way about the challenges 66 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: we face in America with people who are recovering addicts. 67 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: So we wanted to make vivid for the American people 68 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: a kind of reality that's different than the sort of 69 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: Hollywood stereotype. And would you talk a little bit about 70 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: your own engagement in dealing with mental health issues and 71 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: your concerns and frankly, in that world, you're a very 72 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: significant figure as an expert and as a witness. When 73 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: we began to think through Collusion and the whole concept 74 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: of developing characters who would be representative of the complexity 75 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: of modern America, we came up with Brett Garrett, who 76 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: is different from the normal action hero in that he 77 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: has his own challenges in dealing with his own complexities 78 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: of addiction and being a recovering addict, and the emphasis 79 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: on the whole notion that you're never a recovered addict, 80 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: you spend the whole rest of your life recovering, and 81 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about how you envisioned Brett's 82 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: wrestling in his own life, with his own challenges, and 83 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: how that would then affect his ability to be effective, 84 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: because I think when we began to write Collision, we 85 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: saw this as taking a very interesting risk and that 86 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: we're we're bringing in a flawed central character rather than 87 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: somebody who is an automatic kind of James Bond hero. 88 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: I think that was really important when we when we 89 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: started plotting together the characters, we said, look, a lot 90 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: of these books are written with these people's superhuman qualities. 91 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: You know, they are triathletes who run fifty miles and 92 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: they're you know, they can do anything. They can get 93 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: shot twenty times, they can, you know, and we wanted 94 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: somebody much more realistic. And the trick is to try 95 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: to get someone who has empathy even though they have flaws. 96 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: And we both felt that with Breg Carrot, we wanted 97 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: someone who was a true patriot, but that didn't make 98 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: him this superhero. And it was also interesting because we 99 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: wanted him to be relatable to what's happening today, so 100 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: we made him a veteran. We made him, of course 101 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: part of the CIA, but we also had him in 102 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: pretty exciting scenes end up getting shot down in a 103 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: helicopter and badly burned. And at that point, this is 104 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: based on fact, which you liked to infuse in books. 105 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: It used to be, you know, you'd watch a movie 106 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: and they'd say morphine, morphine, bring the guy morphine, and 107 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: they'd shoot him up. Well, that changed, and it was 108 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: a subtle change. It hasn't been highly recognized. And the 109 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: military developed and improved a thin and all lollipop that 110 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: they said was much faster if you stuck it in 111 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: the guy's mouth and absorbed through the skin. And this 112 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: was a precursor to leading to in our case, Brett 113 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: Garrett's opioid addiction. He gets burned. I once did stories 114 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: about burn centers, and I can't think of many injuries 115 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: that cause such lasting pain and suffering as a burn. 116 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: I started to understand how easy it would be to 117 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: get addicted to something like this. If you are constantly 118 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: in pain, you will do anything to get that relief. 119 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: And so I thought this was a wonderful way to 120 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: work these two in, and you led by saying, look, 121 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: let's just don't make some comic book character here. We 122 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: wanted him to be much more complex while still keeping 123 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: these are action driven books. That's what we did with 124 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: every character. We kind of looked at him and said, 125 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: I mean, our bad guys are based on reality, but 126 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: we also try to explain why they think the way 127 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: they do. One of our chief characters is President Colugan, 128 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: the Russian president. If you take that name out and 129 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: you substitute Pudent, and you go and look where Pudent's 130 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: favorite residence is, how many private helicopters, how much money 131 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: he has stolen. All of that's in our book. It's 132 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: just we've flipped the name. I think the part we're 133 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: trying to get across is that this is a real world. 134 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: Collusion is an effort to fictionalize reality, not to create 135 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: an alternative universe. And in this real world, we do 136 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: have people who get up every day in America who 137 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: are managing or seeking to manage both their mental health 138 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: condition and their addiction if they have one, and to 139 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: still be effective, and the system has a substantial number 140 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: of people go through what Brett Garrett, our central figure 141 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: does in the book. At the same time, we want 142 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: to present the Russians as rational, not necessarily likable or sympathetic. 143 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: The way Russia has evolved since the collapse of Communism 144 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: is really tragic in that they basically don't have much 145 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: going for them other than terror, so that they're willingness 146 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: to use force, whether it's in Ukraine or it's poisoning 147 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: somebody in London. This is a manifestation of weakness, not 148 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: of strength. And yet I think they see themselves trapped 149 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: in a world where they are permanently at siege by 150 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: this gigantic country of the United States. We have always been, 151 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: since World War Two, the main enemy. I know in 152 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: the books you wrote, interviewing people both on our side, 153 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: the various spies and their defector, you had this sense 154 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: of how much they focus on us, and how much 155 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: that's still true. And we wanted to set up believable 156 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: series of steps in which, in the end, with absolute 157 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: practical reality, we're putting the entire US Senator risk in 158 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: a way that if you just look and extrapolate things 159 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: the Russians have done and before that, things that the 160 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: Soviets did are very real. I mean, people, it's easy 161 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: to forget that the Soviets at one point actually organized 162 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: through the Bulgarians for a Turk to be hired to 163 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: shoot the pope. This is not a novel. They did it. 164 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: So when we set up a moment where, for their reasons, 165 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: the Russians think that they have valid advantage in wiping 166 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: out the entire US Senate, it's because you can imagine 167 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: the kind of decision making these guys do and the 168 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: kind of tools they're used to mean, They've spent I suspect, 169 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: going back into the Czarist era over a century, developing 170 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: various poisons, and for some reason, more than anybody else 171 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: in the world, the Russians have this fascination with poison. 172 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: One of the things we learned when we were researching 173 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: the book is that actually this fixation of poison goes 174 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: way way back to the fourteen hundreds, when they poisoned 175 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: a chicken and gave it in Moscow to Duke to 176 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: kill him. And then there was Rasputin, but it really 177 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: picked up with the rise of communism. Lenin was the 178 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: target of an assassination attempt and the shooter had coated 179 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: the bullets with poison, and this fascinated him, and so 180 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: he created what they then called the Laboratory and nineteen 181 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: twenty one, and we talk about this in the book, 182 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: it's the Chamber. And basically the mission of that was 183 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: defined a way to develop a poison that was colorless, odorless, 184 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: could dissipate quickly, couldn't be found in the bloodstream, to 185 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: kill your enemies. One of the most fascinating cases was 186 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight fellow named Georgie Markoff, who was 187 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: a defector. He worked for the BBC in London, and 188 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: this just goes to both the mentality you're talking about, 189 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: but to create activity, the genius behind this evil. He 190 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: was standing at the Waterloo Bridge waiting for a bus, 191 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden he felt his jab in 192 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: his thigh and he turned around and a guy had 193 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: dropped an umbrella, and the guy hurried, picks it up 194 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: and jumps in a cab and leaves. Four days later 195 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: he was dead. And what they had done, and this 196 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: is well documented, is they'd created this small steel sphere, 197 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: almost the size of a pinhead, that contained ricin deadly poison. 198 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: And then the sphere had holes in it, but it 199 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: was covered with wax. At this point there was no 200 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: cure for ricing, no antidote. As his body temperature melted 201 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: the wax, the ricing came out and poisoned him a 202 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: painful death after four days. And this was when people 203 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: started saying, hey, wait a minute. They told us that 204 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: he had closed this chamber. They'd said they wouldn't do 205 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: this anymore back in nineteen fifty three, and almost immediately 206 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: we see in retrospect, oh, wait a minute, this guy 207 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: died in this. In fact, what's interesting is I'm not 208 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: a Russian scholar, but when we were doing research on this, 209 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: there was even questions about whether Lennon and Stalin both 210 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: had been poisoned by their own people. And so, you know, 211 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: this is almost part of the national character. And I 212 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: think that's one of the reasons why we wanted one 213 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: to talk about individual poisons, but also to talk about 214 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: something on a grander scale, because you know, when I 215 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 1: did my book about my defector, he said that after 216 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: Pudent got powered, and he considered Pudent a thug, just 217 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: a plain street thug. And he said after he got in, 218 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: two of his top advisors came to visit Little Odessa 219 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: in New York and they went to dinner. The advisors said, 220 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: you know, we made a list of all of our 221 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: opponents we wanted to kill, and we had so many 222 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: people on that list we said, even we can't kill 223 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: them all. Well, I mean that shows the mentality and 224 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: the unabashed willingness. I mean, they've killed people in England, France, Germany, 225 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: and there was one attempt in the United States that 226 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: nobody quite knows. But these are people who are, you know, 227 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: not nervous about going out and trying to kill people. 228 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: So you get this whole picture of how these people 229 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: lived in an alternative reality from what we in the 230 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: West view. You have this. You just made me think 231 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: of the same thing. You imagine Prudence sitting around early 232 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: in his reign, drinking vodka one evening with his key people, 233 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: and they're going, the list is too big. I mean, 234 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: I know, we want to kill them all, but it 235 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: would be so impractical, and he said, let's get some 236 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: more vodka and think about this. Maybe we won't. I mean, 237 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: you can imagine, you can imagine this kind of thinking. 238 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: And I think we wanted to capture in a sense 239 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: for Americans and for Westerners, the objective horror of a 240 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: regime which does think and is reasonable, and which does 241 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: think that killing its opponents is the best way to 242 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: win the argument. And at the same time, we wanted 243 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: to have the people who were stopping them be normal 244 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: Americans with normal challenges, who are having to overcome their 245 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: disadvantages in order to be effective. When I was in Moscow, 246 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: the pr person for the SVR and I were at 247 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: lunch and he told me his favorite story about Stalin. 248 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: Someone came to Stalin said, you know, comrade Stalin, we've 249 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: discovered that five percent of people in our country are traitors. 250 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: They are against us. And so Stalin sent out a 251 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: decree to all the heads of local villages and or 252 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: where else and said, find those five percent and kill them. 253 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: And what happened was, all of a sudden, the mayor 254 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: of some little town would say, oh, comrade Stalin, we 255 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: found ten percent and we killed them. And the next 256 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: perton would say, oh, comrades stal we found percent and 257 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: we killed him. And that is a different mentality than 258 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: we're used to thinking in the United States. And another 259 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: favorite story about Stalin is, you know, the Germans captured 260 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: one of his sons, and they tried to barter and say, 261 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, we'll give you some back, and he said, 262 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: all Russian people are my son's killing me if you want. 263 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: And I mean, it's just a different way of looking 264 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: at life than you know. When I was in Russia, 265 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: I got to know this couple really, really well. I 266 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: was staying with them, and their attitude was enjoy the 267 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: moment because tomorrow is going to be worse. It was 268 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: almost just the flip of the American thinking, I can 269 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: be the guy in the log cabin, I can be 270 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: the peanut farmer, I can be the Hollywood actor. I 271 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: can become president. The other was, oh my god, keep 272 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: your head down because if you I mean, one of 273 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: my translators were on the subway and she said, you 274 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: laugh too loud. Don't call attention to yourself. Well, why, 275 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: because back in those days you could end up being 276 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: sent to a gulag. You know, people were suspicious, That's right, 277 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: They wonder exactly why are you laughing? You know? Along 278 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: that line, two things. We know a young lady who 279 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: came over, she's known her thirties from Nishni Novgorod, and 280 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: I was talking with her. One one night about Putin, 281 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: and she said, I love Putin. She said, I look 282 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: in his eyes and I see the strength that makes 283 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: me proud to be Russian. She said I'd marry him 284 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: in a minute. And so when the sanctions began to 285 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 1: go in, I asked her him. She said, look, all 286 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: of us thought it was a great decade. We don't 287 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: get great decades very often, so now it's not going 288 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: to be a great decade. We're just back to being Russians. Said. 289 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: The idea that you can do something to bother us 290 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: is kind of crazy. When I would fly on Air 291 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: Force one, Reagan would tell they'd always come back and 292 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: tell sovia jokes, and my favorite was he came back 293 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: one day and he said, this is during the Gorbachoff era. 294 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: He said, man goes to buy meat, stands in line 295 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: for two hours, gets to the front of the line. 296 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: The clerk says the whole comrade, we just sold out. 297 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: But I understand there are chickens down the street because 298 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: to the chicken store. He stands in line for two hours. Oh, comrade, 299 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: we had just sold the last chicken. Button. There's a 300 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: fish store down the street. He goes down there. He's 301 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: been standing in line for four hours, gets in line 302 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: and he grumbles. He said, under gorbage off. This isn't working. 303 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: We talked Pastroika, we talked last notes. There's no meat, 304 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: there's no chicken. I'll bet there'll be no fish. Man 305 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: behind him taps him on shoulder. Comrade, I am KGB. 306 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: You're very lucky that gorbage office in George. If breshnyav 307 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: We're still in charge, you would be shot for treason. 308 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: He gets home, his wife says, so, how was it. 309 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: He said, it's worse than ever. They're auto bullets. This 310 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: is why you get along so well. You need to 311 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: go to a communist country if you want to really 312 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: see why communists failed. I was in Moscow, this is 313 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: right after the claps and one of the persons I 314 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: interviewed had been a cab driver and he'd gotten fifty 315 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: rubles a month, which everybody that was kind of the 316 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: normal pay fifty rubles a month. What did he do? 317 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: He got up in the morning, he went down, reported 318 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: to work. He got his cab. He immediately flipped on 319 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: the light not in service. He drove around till his 320 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: tour ended, and he went in. He said, why would 321 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: I pick up passengers? There a bother. So he just 322 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: rode around all day. So I went to the most 323 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: famous glass factory outside of Moscow, and the guy says, 324 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: we had look at these awards, these banners, it was closed, 325 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: look at all this. We were the best glass producers 326 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: in all the Soviet Union, and we never sent out 327 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: a product. And I said what he said, Well, in 328 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: your capitalist society, you'd decide by dollars and cents. We 329 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: decided by meters meters produced. And one day we thought 330 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: we'd make it thinner. There'll be more. So we made 331 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: it so thin that it broke when it came off 332 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: the assembly line. But we thought this is not a 333 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: problem because we got rid of our delivery fleet and 334 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: we just simply took the glass around and melted it again. 335 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: And every year we reported more glass, more glass. Now, 336 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: that guy told me that story, and this is what 337 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: I mean. These are the unattended consequences of thinking, oh, 338 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, we can have this society where everybody's going 339 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: to live and be happy as communist. You know, it 340 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: doesn't work well. And part of what it leads to 341 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: is if you think of yourself, imagine you are trying 342 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: to be the elite governing a system like that, and 343 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: you're trying to compete with the United States in the West. 344 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: And so part of the reason you get intrigued with 345 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons and you get intrigued with poison is it 346 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: gives you some leverage to offset your weakness. And in 347 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: that sense, poison is a weapon of the weak, not 348 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: the strong. And so I think part of what we 349 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: were trying to set up in Collusion was this moment. 350 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: And when you have a newly aggressive Russian leadership that 351 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: really wants to go for broke, really wants to find 352 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: a way to affect the balance of power, to reassert 353 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: great Russian nationalism, and in the process is prepared to 354 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: take really big risks and in a classic model, which frankly, 355 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: the longer I've been around, the more I've looked at 356 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 1: the deep state and at the bureaucracy, the more I 357 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: believe that, in fact, in a lot of the time, 358 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: it is random Americans who just do things above and 359 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: beyond the call of duty, who somehow cover the gaps 360 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: that the bureaucracy can't cover. And I think our effort 361 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: here is to create American figures who are very human 362 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: and very real, and who rise above their weaknesses, and 363 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: they're not real because they're all strength. They're real because 364 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: their commitment to America, their passion for what they're doing, 365 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: and they're understanding of the cost of failure, leads them 366 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: to get more out of themselves than you would have 367 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: thought possible. I'm so glad you said that. I grew 368 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: up in a small rural community, a town of a 369 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: thousand in Colorado, and I was the Vietnam Era. I 370 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: was draftable. I never even I was lucky in the lottery. 371 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: But before that, there was never a threat of me 372 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: being drafted. Why because we had so many volunteers in 373 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: my small county who wanted to go over because they believed, 374 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: rightly or wrongly, that they needed to fight for their country. 375 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: And I used to deal with a lot of Vietnam 376 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: veterans and the shame that the way we treated them 377 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: when they returned, and I lost a good friend over there. 378 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: And these are people who put to test what patriotism 379 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: is all about. And so we wanted when Brett Garrett 380 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: to be a flawed character or a human character, but 381 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: also someone who really it amized what I think makes 382 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: this country great, which is public service. Think about that 383 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: we you know, you become an American, it's not because 384 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: you were descendant of a king. It's not because you 385 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: own land. It's because you believe in a certain concept, 386 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: and that's called freedom. And for somebody to die for 387 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: their beliefs, I mean, you know that to me is 388 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: the real heroism in our country. Now I start to 389 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: grow up without my dad, spent twenty seven years in 390 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: the army, in the infantry and went all around the 391 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: world from World War Two to Korea, to Vietnam, and 392 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,239 Speaker 1: then after Vietnam and now hanging out with my wife Callisto, well, 393 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: she is the ambassador of the Vatican. And seeing the 394 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: people in the State Department and the people in a 395 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: variety of other agencies who are serving all over the world. 396 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: I mean people who voluntarily go to Afghanistan, voluntarily go 397 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: to some of the most disease ridden and dangerous places 398 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: in Equatorial Africa, voluntarily take the risk of being in 399 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: South Sudan and in the middle of battle zones. And 400 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: you realize that there are Americans who rise above the 401 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: normal and rise above the ordinary, who do it knowingly 402 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: because they think it's really important for their country, and 403 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: who get enormous satisfaction. I think that's part of what 404 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: we're trying to achieve with both Brett Garrett and Valerie 405 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: Maybery is to create two people who have an internal 406 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: sense of pride that what they're doing matters and it's real, 407 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: and it gives them an ability to serve America. It 408 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: also gives them an ability to have an excitement and 409 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: a challenge in their life. One of the most complex 410 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: characters and difficult to write, I think for us was 411 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: Valerie Mayberry. She was kind of inspired by a couple 412 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: of female CIA officers. I know, we're way beyond the 413 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: days of the James Bond girl where they're basically just 414 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: some object to make the main hero into some you know, 415 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: bedhopping superhero. And I was very proud of how we 416 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: developed her as a character. We wanted somebody from a 417 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: different class to kind of contrast the Arkansas roots of 418 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: our main male character, our hero, and so we chose 419 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: somebody from a very privileged background, a very wealthy family, 420 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: and trying to then see why that person would even 421 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: want to get involved. And then she has her own 422 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: problems to deal with because she ended up marrying a 423 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: reporter who ends up getting killed and so she's struggling 424 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: with that grief, which again is something I think we 425 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: both tend to like to write things in our past. 426 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: And in my case, you know, my wife's lost two 427 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 1: of her sisters, and so I understand the grief that 428 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: comes with that. We want somebody who really wants to 429 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: serve fellows. She could have retired, been rich, lived off coupons. Instead, 430 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: she's in the FBI well, and I think that's part 431 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: of what has made America extraordinary. And I think what 432 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: we're trying to capture here is this country will survive 433 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: as long as it somehow arouses in enough people. And 434 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: you don't have to be perfect. This again, one of 435 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: the key underlying points of collusion is that you can 436 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: be heroic without having been perfect, and that you can 437 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: rise above yourself by dedicating yourself to a larger cause, 438 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: by taking on a greater challenge, and that in that 439 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: process you can have a very challenging life but also 440 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: a very fulfilling life. And I think that the people 441 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: I've known who have done this really well, most of 442 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: them would tell you that the times it's hard, but 443 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: that it really gives them a sense of satisfaction that 444 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: they can't imagine finding anywhere else. That's a key part 445 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: of it. I think in a sense, the Russian experiences endurance. 446 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: You can't change it, you can't avoid it. So you 447 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: endure and then you hope that you'll have a decent life. 448 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: And as your point out, you don't laugh too loud 449 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: because you don't want the authorities to notice you. And 450 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: also one of the things fascinating about the Russians was 451 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: everybody lied. Everybody was everybody lied, and everybody was expected 452 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: to spy on each other, and so even in families, 453 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: it really corrupted the whole. I mean, you lied because 454 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: you had to say, oh, yes, everything. It's like you said, 455 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: everything's great, we have bread, we have fish, we have everything. 456 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: Went in fact you knew you didn't. And one of 457 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: the other things it was interesting was that the mother 458 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: of this couple, when so union collapsed and all these 459 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: Western goods came in, she was stunned because she didn't 460 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: know that people lived better than they did in Russia 461 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: because the Iron curtain was so strong. So again it's 462 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: kind of the old Russia the emerging Russia, and to me, 463 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: the Russia putin. Putin was a KGB colonel. The system 464 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: that led to the current Russian structure was the seventy 465 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: year Soviet system, and so that's the system which in 466 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: Collusion we show making one last desperate effort to try 467 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: to rebalance things by the use of poison and by 468 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: the use of covert attacks, because they can't compete in 469 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: an open, honest way. And I think readers will find 470 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: clusion interesting both at a human level and at a 471 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: geopolitical level, and they'll find it, I think, an introduction 472 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: to thinking about the world a little differently than before 473 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: they picked the novelope. When we come back, I'll be 474 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: joined by Any Knight, author of Orders to Kill the 475 00:28:54,920 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: Putin Regime and Political Murder, Amy Knight, because the remarkable 476 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: research and wrote Orders to Kill the Putin Regime and 477 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: Political Murder, which I think puts in context why we 478 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: think the Russians have this tendency towards killing people and 479 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: in particular using poison. But any first of all, would 480 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: you just tell us your background, Why did you decide 481 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,239 Speaker 1: to investigate this area. I've been a Russia watcher for 482 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: a long time. I actually used to teach at the 483 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: college level. I worked for eighteen years at the US 484 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: Library of Congress as a Soviet Flash Russian affairs analyst. 485 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: This will be my sixth book. I've always followed everything 486 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: that's that's been going on in the Kremlin and in Russia. 487 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: And I also, of course have been a you know, 488 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: most drawn to the democratic opposition movement. And you know 489 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: that first murder that I talked about in my book 490 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: of Galina Starovotova, who was a parliamentarian in Russia, she 491 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: was shot in her apartment entrance in nineteen ninety eight. 492 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: And I had met Galina and she was with the 493 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: US Institute of Peace for a year in Washington, and 494 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: I really admired her so much, and you know, it 495 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: just struck me that there was something going on that 496 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: people weren't aware of, you know. And at that point, 497 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: Lady mur Putin was the head of the FSB and 498 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: very closely connected with Saint Petersburg, and I didn't particularly 499 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: attribute it to Putin, but it was a very strange 500 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: murder and it never has been solved properly. So that 501 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: got you intrigued with the way in which the Russians 502 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: police themselves, well, it got me. Yes, I always had 503 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: a sort of a specialty in the security services. I 504 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: had written a book on the KGB. So I was 505 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: always following what these officials were doing. And then that, 506 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: combined with my interest in Russian critics of journalists and politicians, 507 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: led me to follow every time, you know, there was 508 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: a murderer, I was, you know, wondering what happened. And 509 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: of course, you know, the Russian independent media has always 510 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: been very good since the Soviet collapsed, So that, combined 511 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: with interviews, enabled me to kind of follow these different cases. 512 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: Just as an aside, I noticed that one of the 513 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: books you wrote was on Maria Stalin's head of the KGB, 514 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: who is himself sort of a remarkable case study in neutality. Yes, 515 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: he is, very much. So I should mention that I 516 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: also was a historian of stalin period, and it just 517 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: struck me that no one had ever really investigated the 518 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: history of Laventi Baria, who was Stalin's right hand, Stalin's 519 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: henchman kind of from the get go, and who was 520 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: a key administrator of the purges, you know, the famous 521 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: purges in the thirties. So I decided I would I 522 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: would write a biography of him, and this, I should 523 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: add was prompted by the fact that Soviet archives opened 524 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: up in the nineties for a while, and one could 525 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: really find out a great deal about Barrier and Stalin. 526 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: And I also went to Georgia, to Tblisi and worked 527 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: there to the little research there. So yeah, that was 528 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: my first book, and I think, you know, that just 529 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: continued my interest in the security services and that the 530 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: more sinister asked spect of how Russia is ruled, picking 531 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: as a starting point. It must have been a very 532 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: eye opening at times to be in the archives and 533 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: realize in a mundane way how routine this was, that 534 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: this was just the way they did things. Yes, you're 535 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: absolutely right, it did become a routine. But you know, 536 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: towards the end of Stalin's life, Baria and Malatrof and 537 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: Malankoff and Kruschoff all started to be They didn't particularly 538 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: appreciate Stalin's bloodthirstiness, and they were actually, I think quite 539 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: pleased when he died. And what followed was a sort 540 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: of Soviet version of the liberalization, and they stopped the killings. 541 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: They settled their scores in different ways. Well, ye have 542 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: you seen The Day Stalin died? The Death of Stalin 543 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: the British film, Yes, yes, and it's it's excellent and 544 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: I would say quite historically accurate. I love the fact 545 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: that it was able to make it almost humorous. Not everybody, 546 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: not everybody caught it, but I laughed. I thought, I'm 547 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: not watched anythink three times because I thought it was 548 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: It was done brilliantly to communicate a level of horror, 549 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: which was more horrifying for being funny exactly. I think 550 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: they had they done it purely straight, it would have 551 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: been deadening. But by doing it the way they did, 552 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: you really got a sense of just how terrifying the 553 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: regime was. Exactly exactly. And I should add, by the way, 554 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: that although you know Barrier is always sort of the 555 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: poster person for all of Stalin's terror and violence, all 556 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: of these men contributed to it and went along with 557 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: it until they worried that it was finally going to 558 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: hit them. I'm working in a book right now on China, 559 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: and it's fascinating to realize it. In the twenties and thirties, 560 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: Mouse Dung and Dun Shaping and others studied Stalin and 561 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: Lenin as role models, and in fact, Stalin's Brief History 562 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: of the Bolshevik Revolution was a major work that both 563 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: the Dung Chopeng and Malzi Dung relied on. And it's 564 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: a work which teaches the virtue of purses, that if 565 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: you could you maintain constant turmoil and the party by 566 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: every few years having a purge. And I think it's 567 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: part of what explains what happened with mal in the 568 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, that in a way he was almost 569 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: going off the rails the way Stalin had after World 570 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: War Two, right exactly exactly. I mean, this was a 571 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: timed and true method for keeping the population in subjugation. 572 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 1: I gather from Pete Early and my co author, who's 573 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: done a good bit of writing on the KGB. I 574 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: think he met you. I met him in the Washington 575 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: area when he wrote one of his first books, and 576 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: we got together because of our common interest in this 577 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: press and security services. So he and I are brainstorming 578 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: and came up with the concept of collusion, in this 579 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: case more deadly version than the politics of the last 580 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: couple of years, and thought about sort of a Putent 581 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: like figure who gets deeply offended and decides to teach 582 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: us a lesson. And it's striking how often the Russians, 583 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: both the Soviets and now the current regime are willing 584 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: to be a little sloppy and open and who they're 585 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: killing I think because they want to send a signal. 586 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: I think that they actually think as to their advantage 587 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: to have you know what they are doing. But what's 588 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: your take on that? I'm in agreement with you. I 589 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 1: have just been writing a PostScript to my latest book 590 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: because it's coming out in paperback in Britain, and I'm 591 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: including a PostScript about the Scripball poisonings in the UK 592 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: in March of twenty and eighteen, and it's really struck 593 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: me that these people were We now know that they 594 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: were gru officers who actually put the poison Novichuk, which 595 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: is a nerve agent, on the doorknob of Sergei Screepal. 596 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: They were sloppy. They allowed themselves to be photographed on 597 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: the CTV, recorded on the cameras walking around the streets 598 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: of Salisbury where Scripa lived, and they, you know, they 599 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: left a perfume type bottle with the rest of the 600 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: novchuk in a trash can which was later picked up 601 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: by two innocent people to Brits and they were revealed 602 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: as their true names were eventually uncovered, and so we 603 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: now pretty much have a smoking gun that the Kremlin 604 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: was directly involved with this, and I don't think the 605 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 1: Kremlin particularly cares because if you know, people have talked 606 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: about what would be the motive of mister Putin to 607 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: have such a crime carried out in the UK. Surely 608 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: he was, you know, knew that it was going to 609 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: cause a huge shockwave in the West and sanctions and 610 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: diplomats being kicked out. But Putin is not as maybe 611 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: as rational as we assume he is, and I think 612 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: he and his colleagues really wanted to send a message 613 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: to would be defectors that this could happen to them 614 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: if they, you know, if they turned to the West. 615 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: And also I think it reinforces for Putin this image 616 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: of him being a strong man who can stand up 617 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: to the West. And you know, the Russian public when 618 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: Lipzinenko was poisoned in Britain in two thousand and six, 619 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: we again they're the killers, were found, they were got 620 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,439 Speaker 1: themselves back to Russia, they weren't extradited, and they did 621 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: poll the what the Russian people thought about this murder, 622 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: and most of them felt that Lifinenko deserved it. I 623 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: haven't seen any polls about Scrupal. But I think Putin 624 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: was playing to an audience, and so I don't think 625 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: it really matters all that much to the Kremlin whether 626 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: or not we know that they were the ones that 627 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: orchestrated these recent poisonings in Britain. So you mentioned that 628 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: these were two GRU agents, which, if I remember correctly, 629 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: is the Military Intelligence Unit, right, it's the military intelligence 630 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: branch of the Ministry of Defense. And it's very interesting 631 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: because in earlier days it was always the KGB and 632 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: the KGB's successors, the FSB, the Federal Security Service. They 633 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: were the ones, along with a foreign intelligence agency that 634 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: would do these things abroad. The GRU also didn't do 635 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: bad things, but it was more in the under the 636 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: purview of foreign intelligence in the FSB. And now it 637 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: seems like the GRU is carrying out more of these 638 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: acts of violence. And also, as we know now the 639 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: election interference, because it was the GRU was responsible for 640 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: a lot of the hacking of our presidential election. Can 641 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 1: you take us back? One of the things I'm always 642 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: struck with when people try to understand Putin, and this 643 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: is the one comment you made earlier about whether or 644 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: not he was rational, isn't it likely that he is 645 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: rational within the framework of a Cold War trained KGB 646 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: officer who rose to a pretty decent rank and would 647 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: have regarded levels of violence and brutality that we'd be 648 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: horrified by. Is this kind of volunt today's work? I mean, 649 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: how do you explain the impact of having been a 650 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: KGB officer and now being president of Russia. Oh, it's huge. 651 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: The outlook of the KGB was that the West an enemy, 652 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: and anything that happened even within the country, like the 653 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: dissident movement and so forth, rather than looking inward at 654 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: the causes might be responsible for some of the descent, 655 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: it was always blamed on the West. And another part 656 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,839 Speaker 1: of this sort of KGB philosophy which has continued on 657 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: today among with Putin and his associates who are also 658 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: from the security services, it's this idea that again that 659 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: the West is an enemy, and also that in order 660 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: to sort of perpetuate your regime or to buttress your regime, 661 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: you have to be aggressive militarily I mean or threatening militarily. 662 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: In other words, there's always this kind of impetus that 663 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: they have to do something to reassert Russia's predominance abroad 664 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,840 Speaker 1: and of course, particularly given that with the collapse of 665 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union and the Eastern Lock they lost a 666 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: lot of their territory. So there is kind of this 667 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 1: almost instinctive need to be forceful and uncompromising, and Putin 668 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: has inherited this mindset and he continues along with Most 669 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: of his ruling clique are former security or current security officials, 670 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: so so in a sense, their very weakness leads them 671 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: to project a kind of brutal toughness because they think 672 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: if they can't keep us off balance and frightened, that 673 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: our relative advantages would be overwhelming. Exactly exactly in Russia, 674 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: it's their instinct that even Western businessmen who don't want 675 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 1: to get involved in Russian politics and who are very 676 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: complimentary to Putin, even these people are to be distrusted, 677 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: So you know, they are I'm hoping that I'm not 678 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: generalizing too much, but I would say that in a 679 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: sense they do sort of shoot themselves in the foot, 680 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: because what's happening now in Russia is there's a lot 681 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: of discontent over the economic decline of the country, and 682 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: instead of doing things to encourage more investment and improve 683 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: relations with the West, which would enable Russia to make 684 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: the changes in their own economy. These men at the 685 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: top and the Kremlin, including Putin, don't think about that. 686 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: They think basically about their own bank accounts. The immediate 687 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: core team around Putin measures life by their victories and 688 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: if that means it impoverishes the country, as long as 689 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,439 Speaker 1: their victories are going on, it's fine, yes, And as 690 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: long as they can continue with their immense corruption, that's 691 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,479 Speaker 1: all pretty much they care about. And they also, which 692 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: I find kind of amusing, they also make sure if 693 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: there's a lot in epotism in the Russian government, so 694 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,439 Speaker 1: they make sure that their children, you know, get plum 695 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: jobs in the Kremlin, in ministries and so on and 696 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: so forth, and so they you know, they share their 697 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,479 Speaker 1: wealth with their own. But yeah, they don't really seem 698 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: to worry very much about the people. Even even from 699 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: a rational point of view, they should be nervous because 700 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,839 Speaker 1: enough dissatisfaction. You know, we have to remember that one 701 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: of the key causes of the Soviet collapse was economic discontent. 702 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: Let me ask you, and this whole pattern of poisoning 703 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: people both inside the country and overseas to what extent 704 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: is that a an invention under Lenen and stelling of 705 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: the Czecha and Ogpu. And to what extent does it 706 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: actually go back to the Czarist period? I mean this 707 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: fascination with poison. I talk about that in my latest book, 708 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: Orders to Kill. There is a tradition of terror and 709 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: violence that us go back to the Czaro's period. I 710 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: try to make it clear that I don't think it 711 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: can be attributed to the fact that Russians are more 712 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:12,439 Speaker 1: bloodthirsty than other nationalities. I think it related to just 713 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:17,000 Speaker 1: the way their political system worked and the experiences of 714 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: the Mongol invasion in the thirteenth century. They just tended 715 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: to solve some of their succession disputes by murder, and 716 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: of course there was no you know, there was no 717 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: government that could actually call people to account. So yeah, 718 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: there was that tradition, and you know, even Stalin, aside 719 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: from the mass terror that he inflicted on his people, 720 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: there were also occasionally these covert murders where people like 721 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: Maxim Gorky would die and everybody would suspect or Sergey Kiroff, 722 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: the head of the Leningrad Party, who was shot. People 723 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: would suspect that Stalin was behind it, but you know, 724 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: they never could prove it. This is a tradition that 725 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: goes way back, and think it's just something that has continued. 726 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:14,240 Speaker 1: So Pede and I, in developing our novel Collusion, really 727 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: picked up on a couple of thematics. One is the 728 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: degree to which the Soviets and now the Russians work 729 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,720 Speaker 1: on poison gases at a level which they cheerfully lie about, 730 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: but which at least one occasion I believe I'm going 731 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: to say the nineteen seventies led to devastation of a 732 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: town because the poison gas factory developed a leak. They 733 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 1: have these highly secure, state controlled laboratories, had and still 734 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 1: have this kind of poison lab right in Moscow. But 735 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: in addition to that, in a town called or a 736 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 1: city called Saratov, they have a special laboratory that produces 737 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: some of these poisons. And I believe that's where polonium 738 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:03,919 Speaker 1: two ten, which was the poison that was administered to 739 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: Alexander Littenenko in London in two thousand and six, that 740 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: came from that factory. And it's controlled by the security services, 741 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,640 Speaker 1: very guarded with top you know, no one could possibly 742 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 1: get into these places. And this apply and the same 743 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: thing would go for Novichuk, which was the the poison 744 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: that almost killed the screepouts. We know that because it's 745 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: so highly guarded that no rogue killer could get ahold 746 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: of these poisons. That in general, it has to be 747 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 1: something that's approved at the top. If they are used, 748 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 1: this has to be Putin or whoever his successor is, 749 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: because they have direct immediate control over that part of 750 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: the security system. Nobody else below them would be able 751 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: to go out and do these kind of things without 752 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: at least the task it approval the two. Yeah, there 753 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 1: would never be a written order, of course, But I 754 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: always take issue with people who say, well, maybe Putin 755 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 1: didn't actually order these killings, he just created a kind 756 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,839 Speaker 1: of an environment in which they could happen. I don't 757 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,240 Speaker 1: believe that for a minute. I think when it comes 758 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:27,360 Speaker 1: to high profile killings, starting with say Annapolitkovskaya, the journalist 759 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: who was a virulent critic of Putin, she also was 760 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 1: gunned down in her part in the starewell of her apartment, 761 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 1: followed on with numerous others, including Boris Nimsov, who was 762 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 1: shot on a bridge just outside the Kremlin. These crimes 763 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,799 Speaker 1: would not be just orchestrated by people acting on their 764 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:56,280 Speaker 1: own initiative, without consent and directed ultimately by mister Putin. 765 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: I think the way the system worked, there isn't room 766 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 1: for kind of personal initiative in any of these killings. 767 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,440 Speaker 1: As Pete and now we're thinking this through. I mean, 768 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: part of the point is that there's been no pushback. 769 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 1: If you look at Ukraine, where I think just recently 770 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,360 Speaker 1: another person was killed in Kiev. If you look at 771 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: the way they operate stealing CRIMEA, then stealing part of 772 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: eastern Ukraine, then blocking off of the cfasof and then 773 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: deliberately going after people in Great Britain, which seems to 774 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: be their favorite country to do that in the part 775 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,759 Speaker 1: of the message we're teaching them is that they can 776 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 1: get away with it. I mean, this is a huge 777 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,759 Speaker 1: dilemma for the West because I think that Teresa may 778 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,719 Speaker 1: reacted very appropriately after the recent poisonings in Britain. But 779 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,719 Speaker 1: you know, you have to remember that after Litvinenko was 780 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,120 Speaker 1: assassinated in two thousand and six, she was a Home 781 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: Secretary then and she really resisted a full fledged investigation 782 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:05,680 Speaker 1: of at murder. And it wasn't until Lizzinenko's widow, Marina, 783 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,040 Speaker 1: who really persevered and pushed and pushed and push that 784 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:14,360 Speaker 1: they finally had an official inquiry in twenty fifteen. So 785 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 1: they did react at that point very strongly. And I 786 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: think that Britain is to be admired for how they've 787 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,719 Speaker 1: stood up to the Russians with this recent poisoning. But 788 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 1: I would have to say that here in the United 789 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,319 Speaker 1: States we haven't had nearly as strong a reaction to this. 790 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: The death of Michael Lesson in a Washington, DC hotel 791 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:46,319 Speaker 1: room in twenty fifteen. Lesson had been the head of 792 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: gas Pro media and he was really sort of Putin's 793 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 1: chief propagandist for a number of years. He was an 794 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:58,759 Speaker 1: oligarch and became extremely wealthy. He had two children who 795 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 1: were living out on the West Coast actually in the 796 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,839 Speaker 1: United States, and he came to DC. We don't know 797 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,240 Speaker 1: exactly why. Some people said he was going to talk 798 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,359 Speaker 1: to the FBI and tell them some information that they 799 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: might have wanted to know. He also had been invited 800 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: to a dinner in honor of piotr Avan, who was 801 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: an oligarch who had contributed some money to philanthropy. In 802 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: any case, Lesson was found dead in the DuPont Circle 803 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:35,840 Speaker 1: hotel in November twenty fifteen, and they ruled the death 804 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,960 Speaker 1: to be from falls that he had taken when he 805 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:44,040 Speaker 1: was drunk. But there are quite a few people who 806 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: think that's not the whole story, and particularly Radio Liberty 807 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: Radio for Europe has actually gotten some of the medical 808 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,800 Speaker 1: reports and has openly questioned whether or not he didn't 809 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:02,040 Speaker 1: actually die by accident. So I guess I bring up 810 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,120 Speaker 1: the Lesson case only to point out that, yes, it's 811 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: these murders have tended to happen in Britain, but it 812 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 1: could happen in the United States. Russia is not a 813 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,440 Speaker 1: democracy with a free press, so the only time we 814 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: in the West can react is when something happens in 815 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:25,360 Speaker 1: our own country, and that's I think why Britain reacted 816 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:30,360 Speaker 1: so strongly the last time. I think that the Russian oligarchs, 817 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 1: many of whom live in Britain, have been not very 818 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 1: happy about this plate is poisoning because it's made it 819 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,680 Speaker 1: more difficult for them. They're under a lot more scrutiny 820 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: and their finances are under more scrutiny. So I think 821 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: the best thing that we can do in the West 822 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 1: is to continue with sanctions, continue to call out the 823 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 1: Kremlin expelled diplomats. If something happens again, at least make 824 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,839 Speaker 1: it clear to them that there will be repercussion, whether 825 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: or not it will stop the behavior. As another question, 826 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,360 Speaker 1: do you think they have a particular kind of poison 827 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: they prefer or they kind of equal opportunity poisoners. Well, 828 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,160 Speaker 1: polonium two ten that was used by now these people 829 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:22,400 Speaker 1: were hired by the FSB to kill Alexander Littenenko in London. 830 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:28,240 Speaker 1: That is a very very dangerous, deadly poison, and that 831 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:32,840 Speaker 1: I think perhaps Russia or learned a lesson in that case, 832 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:38,799 Speaker 1: because actually the two killers were careless. Apparently they had 833 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:44,920 Speaker 1: not been properly educated on how dangerous and deadly polonium 834 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,719 Speaker 1: two ten was, because they actually contaminated themselves and they 835 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:55,120 Speaker 1: ended up having to be in hospital back in Russia. Afterwards, 836 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,520 Speaker 1: they spread polonium on the plane in their hotel rooms, 837 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,480 Speaker 1: as somebody said, like Kensel and Gretel, they just sprinkled 838 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,520 Speaker 1: crumbs of it all over London. They mishandled it badly. 839 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: And I think that Russia would if they ever decide 840 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: to use a substance again, they probably wouldn't pick polonium 841 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: two ten. I'm not an expert on Novichuk, but as 842 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,000 Speaker 1: we know from you know, what can happen just by 843 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,360 Speaker 1: turning a door knob. If that poison is on the knob, 844 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: it can be also have unintended consequences. I think they've 845 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,759 Speaker 1: used novchuk in the past in other cases there have 846 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 1: been you know, a lot of stories about it being 847 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: used earlier. Whatever poison they decided upon, I think that 848 00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:53,399 Speaker 1: whoever is planning and orchestrating a murder will be very, 849 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,439 Speaker 1: very cautious because these things can have unintended repercussions. If 850 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,680 Speaker 1: you look at the people that the Russians have targeted 851 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:08,719 Speaker 1: outside Russia, they tend to be people that the Russians 852 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:13,920 Speaker 1: view as traders. They must weigh the pros and cons 853 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,840 Speaker 1: every time such an action has taken. The real problem 854 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,480 Speaker 1: with what's happening now in Russia and with mister Putin's 855 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:27,720 Speaker 1: violent anti democratic rule, is that the Russians didn't have 856 00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:33,160 Speaker 1: a proper lustration after the collapse of the Soviet Union. 857 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:39,319 Speaker 1: They did not rid themselves of former KGB officials and 858 00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 1: Communist Party officials. I mean, they didn't have a proper 859 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,080 Speaker 1: reckoning with their past. And so this is why we're 860 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: seeing what we see today because the tradition is being 861 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:58,600 Speaker 1: continued of what went before the Soviet collapse, and until 862 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,560 Speaker 1: they get rid of the people who are carrying on 863 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:06,320 Speaker 1: this tradition of violence, it's never going to stop. It 864 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 1: would be nice if there was a way to get 865 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 1: to sort of one more Russian revolution leading to a 866 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,600 Speaker 1: genuinely democratic and open Russia, but that we may not 867 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,040 Speaker 1: see that in our lifetime. Listen, thank you very very 868 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,479 Speaker 1: much for taking this time, and we wish you luck 869 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,640 Speaker 1: as you continue down the road of trying to explain 870 00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,719 Speaker 1: Russia to the rest of us. Well, thank you very much, Nudi, 871 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,839 Speaker 1: it was nice talking to you. When we come back, 872 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,040 Speaker 1: I'll be joined by Jack Divine, a thirty two year 873 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:54,080 Speaker 1: veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency. Jack Divine spent over 874 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,520 Speaker 1: thirty years working inside the CIA in the late nineteen 875 00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,800 Speaker 1: sixties to the late nineteen nineties. Was involved in a 876 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: range of the most intense and often covert actions which 877 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,680 Speaker 1: the CIA undertook. He has a wealth of experience to share. 878 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,879 Speaker 1: He can speak about the nature of the spy game 879 00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 1: better than almost any living individual and is a vital 880 00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 1: resource for what we're talking about in terms of the Russians. 881 00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,560 Speaker 1: Divine himself is the author of Good Hunting, an American 882 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,040 Speaker 1: spymaster's story. The book talks about his time in the 883 00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:28,160 Speaker 1: agency and the role of covert action and advancing government 884 00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,440 Speaker 1: interest on the world stage. He was in Chile before 885 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,280 Speaker 1: the coup against Aende. He played his central role in 886 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:37,240 Speaker 1: the Afghan Task Force, and he eventually took charged in 887 00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,800 Speaker 1: operations that sought to fund and arm them Hodgedene and 888 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 1: their fight against the Civil Union. He ran the Counter 889 00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:47,120 Speaker 1: and Narcotics Operation in South America, where he oversaw the 890 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,920 Speaker 1: capture of Pablo Escobar. He then took over the larger 891 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,960 Speaker 1: CIA based Counter Narcotics Operation, which coordinated the response to 892 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: global and narcotics trafficking effort. After he left the CIA, 893 00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,800 Speaker 1: Divine founded the Arkhan Group, a pre eminent New York 894 00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:06,160 Speaker 1: based consulting operation. He's joined the Council on Foreign Relations. 895 00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,800 Speaker 1: He has been vocal about Russia's covert poisoning operations and 896 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,560 Speaker 1: how the Russian state goes about poisoning an individual. He's 897 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,960 Speaker 1: also been active about the whole nature of Russian intelligence operations. 898 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 1: So Jack, let me start with, why do you think 899 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,520 Speaker 1: the Russians are so fascinated with the use of poison 900 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,439 Speaker 1: the Russian system that's always existed. So you go back 901 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:34,040 Speaker 1: to Trotsky being assassinated in Mexico City with a hatchet 902 00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:39,360 Speaker 1: and the famous Markoff case on the Waterloo Bridge. So 903 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,040 Speaker 1: we can go on and on. But today, what I 904 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,720 Speaker 1: think is interesting, with the collapse of communism, there is 905 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,200 Speaker 1: a sparkle of democracy, but now we've drifted back into 906 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,600 Speaker 1: the old autocratic system and with it comes to what 907 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:57,000 Speaker 1: I would consider this unrestrained use of force. And I'm 908 00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,640 Speaker 1: amazed to find out and not think called keetri after that. 909 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:05,240 Speaker 1: But the Parliament and the Duma I'm actually passed the 910 00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:10,080 Speaker 1: law in two thousand and six which gives extra judicial, 911 00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:16,760 Speaker 1: extra legal authority to basically assassinate enemies of the state, dissidents. 912 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's actually part of the Russian system. I 913 00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,800 Speaker 1: can't imagine any law ever being put on the table 914 00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,680 Speaker 1: let alone pass. So there's a world of difference. There 915 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,640 Speaker 1: isn't my bottom line point, there's no there isn't parity. 916 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,320 Speaker 1: There is two different worlds and how you approach the 917 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,400 Speaker 1: intelligence business. Where there are some similarities, this is one 918 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,000 Speaker 1: of the huge differences. I'm only struck that we sort 919 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,920 Speaker 1: of shrug off the degree to which Putin was a 920 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:53,160 Speaker 1: fully trained, professional KGB officer with all of the enthusiastic 921 00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:58,000 Speaker 1: propensity both for dishonesty and for violence that is at 922 00:59:58,000 --> 00:59:59,840 Speaker 1: the heart going all the way back to the cha 923 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,920 Speaker 1: A Hun Lennon of the Russian secret system, and that 924 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,360 Speaker 1: I always thought to myself, if you look at what 925 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: they're willing to do their own to their own people, 926 01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,880 Speaker 1: it shouldn't shock you that the level of brutality they're 927 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,600 Speaker 1: willing to employ overseas. But given all the knowledge you 928 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:18,000 Speaker 1: have of the Russian system, how it evolved, how it operates, 929 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,760 Speaker 1: what's your interpretation of Putin and how do you think 930 01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,400 Speaker 1: we should see him. I think that's a key point. 931 01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,080 Speaker 1: And if we could quote Putin, I mean he once 932 01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 1: said once a KGV guy, always a KGV guy, and 933 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,160 Speaker 1: I think he meant it, and I knew what I 934 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:39,040 Speaker 1: understood what he was saying. And I might say the 935 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,040 Speaker 1: same thing. Once a CIA guy, always a CIA guy, 936 01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,600 Speaker 1: But there's different implications. So if we look at Putin's 937 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,520 Speaker 1: career in the KGB, you know he wanted to be 938 01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,120 Speaker 1: in at a very early age. This is not a fluke. 939 01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 1: I mean he was seventeen and rejected, but then was 940 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:58,920 Speaker 1: eventually got in and he spent I think almost a decade. 941 01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:03,400 Speaker 1: Putin actually served in Dresden, he served in East Germany. 942 01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to talk about an oppressed environment, 943 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:10,560 Speaker 1: and it was the Haven, it was the center of espionage. 944 01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,880 Speaker 1: There were more spies in East Germany than the rest 945 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,320 Speaker 1: of the world combined. When you look at what the 946 01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:19,160 Speaker 1: Russians did in twenty sixteen, you know they're meddling in 947 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,280 Speaker 1: the election. From an operational point of view, you know, 948 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: they take some pride that they did so many Facebook, 949 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,720 Speaker 1: Twitter got into the election system. And if you step 950 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,840 Speaker 1: back and say, you know, that was maybe a successful operation. 951 01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,240 Speaker 1: What allows the strategy because it now has driven a 952 01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:41,360 Speaker 1: huge spike in the public mind here in the United States, 953 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,920 Speaker 1: and it's made any reset with them so much more remote, 954 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,640 Speaker 1: and it leads to Russia having a weaker economic system, 955 01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:53,680 Speaker 1: not integrated. So sometimes the operators don't think of the 956 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:58,080 Speaker 1: longer arc of history. They have probably killed more people 957 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:02,360 Speaker 1: outside their own country than any other government in modern times, 958 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,480 Speaker 1: and they seem to My guess is this is clearly 959 01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,800 Speaker 1: done with Putin's absolute understanding and approval. They're wanting to 960 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,800 Speaker 1: pay the price to prove they can do it. I mean, 961 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:16,000 Speaker 1: what's you're taking as a strategy, because this is clearly 962 01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:19,040 Speaker 1: something that they developed as a strategic weapon. I think 963 01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 1: it's a very good analysis, and I don't think people 964 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:26,240 Speaker 1: understand that they're willing to pay that price. There were Sharple, 965 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,800 Speaker 1: the former intelligence officer they worked for the British and 966 01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:37,360 Speaker 1: was they tried to assassinate them in twenty eighteen in London, England, 967 01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,520 Speaker 1: and they could have done in ten different ways, but 968 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,200 Speaker 1: they use a nerve agent and it's like right in 969 01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,920 Speaker 1: your face. I mean, it wasn't meant to be clandestine. 970 01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:48,640 Speaker 1: At the end of the day. They wanted to send 971 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,640 Speaker 1: a message to all other intelligence officers the fact that 972 01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,240 Speaker 1: we're going to come and get you. So yeah, there 973 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,840 Speaker 1: was a lot of static Russian officers thrown out of 974 01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:02,560 Speaker 1: the country, more actions, I mean, but they're prepared to 975 01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,600 Speaker 1: live with that. And you know, a few years earlier, 976 01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,200 Speaker 1: they did the same thing the Veneto in two thousand 977 01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,960 Speaker 1: and six, and you know, there was a tremendous reaction 978 01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,320 Speaker 1: to it when they use plotonium to kill him, and 979 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, there again, here you go back twelve years later. 980 01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,760 Speaker 1: They're doing it against sherpoll, so they're willing to pay 981 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:25,840 Speaker 1: pay the price. This is why I think it's a 982 01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,720 Speaker 1: flawed strategy. I think he has decided that's not going 983 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:31,919 Speaker 1: to happen, and he is going to take a very 984 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,000 Speaker 1: aggressive situation. And it's not just in poisoning, but if 985 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,680 Speaker 1: you look at Venezuela, that's right in your face, Ukraine, 986 01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,480 Speaker 1: right in your face. I mean, he's executing a very 987 01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:48,720 Speaker 1: strong Cold War strategy without communism, okay, And I would say, 988 01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,640 Speaker 1: is that really the right strategy for them? He thinks 989 01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,480 Speaker 1: so well. And that's why in our novel Collusion, we 990 01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,480 Speaker 1: end up with a very aggressive Russian strategy that on 991 01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:04,880 Speaker 1: the surface you would think was implausible, except that every 992 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,320 Speaker 1: once in a while he doubles down. I mean, whether 993 01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:11,920 Speaker 1: it's seizing Crimea or cutting off the seas off or 994 01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:15,280 Speaker 1: as you point out, deliberately getting in our backyard and 995 01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,280 Speaker 1: in a sense, pulling our chain in Venezuela. Part of 996 01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,480 Speaker 1: what I'm intrigued with is it's almost like it's an 997 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,240 Speaker 1: art form, if you will. I mean, polonium is apparently 998 01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:30,120 Speaker 1: a million times more poisonous than cyanide. It's something which 999 01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,080 Speaker 1: has to be a state produced. This couldn't have been 1000 01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,960 Speaker 1: a random event, and it has to have been designed 1001 01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,480 Speaker 1: to be detected. I mean they did this deliberately knowing 1002 01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:42,560 Speaker 1: it would send a signal, and I cell in a 1003 01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,560 Speaker 1: signal was anybody else who betrays us? You should know 1004 01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:49,320 Speaker 1: we may come and kill you. But doesn't strike you 1005 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:54,400 Speaker 1: that it's almost a hard to predict that a modern 1006 01:04:54,520 --> 01:05:00,720 Speaker 1: government would deliberately use such a readily identifiable substance which 1007 01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,680 Speaker 1: only they had, in order to send a signal by 1008 01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,720 Speaker 1: killing a guy in a really grotesque way and in 1009 01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 1: the process, by the way, also giving radiation poisoning to 1010 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,360 Speaker 1: other people. If you were really artful in this and 1011 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 1: you wanted to get rid of somebody, you make them disappear. 1012 01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have any evidence, right, And that 1013 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:23,280 Speaker 1: isn't that hard just to ask the people that took 1014 01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:26,280 Speaker 1: care of Jimmy Haffa. I mean, you don't. And they 1015 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,720 Speaker 1: didn't have a full intelligence service with all the resort. 1016 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,600 Speaker 1: It was meant to be seen for what it is, 1017 01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:33,960 Speaker 1: you know, I questioned the wisdom of it. In fact, 1018 01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:37,240 Speaker 1: when we looked at the twenty sixteen election, I thought, well, 1019 01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, this is really dumb. I mean, did they 1020 01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:42,200 Speaker 1: really do this? But we better be prepared to live 1021 01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:44,720 Speaker 1: with the fact that they have successes and that there 1022 01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,040 Speaker 1: are you know, malls inside or government. We've always had them, 1023 01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:50,160 Speaker 1: I said, I know a couple of them personally. I mean, 1024 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:53,880 Speaker 1: they're always there. So this looks a little ragged around 1025 01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,200 Speaker 1: the edges. But they've been working. You know, they've been 1026 01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:00,200 Speaker 1: working since nineteen seventeen, and then when they fell hard 1027 01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,880 Speaker 1: ninety one, it was by ninety three they were back 1028 01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:07,960 Speaker 1: in business. And there's more Russian intelligence operators today than 1029 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:12,080 Speaker 1: there ever were. We have a Russian agent inside the 1030 01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,200 Speaker 1: US Senate. In our novel Collusion, we were trying to 1031 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:19,640 Speaker 1: communicate what real collusion could look like and how dangerous 1032 01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:23,560 Speaker 1: it could really be. Most Americans are slow to accept 1033 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:27,640 Speaker 1: the fact that anybody could portray a democratic country, you know, 1034 01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,440 Speaker 1: one that stands for liberties. You have trouble getting your 1035 01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,280 Speaker 1: head around it. So along that same line we set 1036 01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,920 Speaker 1: up in our novel Collusion, we set up a pretty radical, 1037 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:43,480 Speaker 1: daring gambit by Putin to really try to destabilize the 1038 01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:45,640 Speaker 1: United States. We've seen a lot of things that don't 1039 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 1: make sense through the years, and you've picked off several 1040 01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:53,360 Speaker 1: of them, and here we go with it doesn't make 1041 01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,360 Speaker 1: sense to what they did. To me, it doesn't make sense. 1042 01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,640 Speaker 1: What they did in the twenty sixteen election doesn't make sense. 1043 01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:01,280 Speaker 1: That they're in the in this day and age in 1044 01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,840 Speaker 1: the assassination game is absurd. I think that you're describing 1045 01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:08,920 Speaker 1: about Putin and where we are today. He's read his history, 1046 01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:13,000 Speaker 1: He's been in places where he knows what things are tough. 1047 01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,920 Speaker 1: He's going to use consistently a tough position. Although I 1048 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,240 Speaker 1: think you's gotten too much credit, as I said earlier, 1049 01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:23,080 Speaker 1: for strategic thinking. I think he's doing a great job 1050 01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:27,080 Speaker 1: from his playbook on the tactics, and I don't think 1051 01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,440 Speaker 1: the Ukraine story is well understood here just how important 1052 01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,959 Speaker 1: that is and understanding the history of Russia and where 1053 01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,240 Speaker 1: we are today. There's much to be learned from this 1054 01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,040 Speaker 1: experience watching Putin play that card. One of the things 1055 01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:41,800 Speaker 1: that I'm really struck with Putin that makes him different. 1056 01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,600 Speaker 1: And this may go back to the KGB training and 1057 01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:46,840 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, at one time the Soviet 1058 01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:51,040 Speaker 1: Union did play in our league and had trained people 1059 01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:54,280 Speaker 1: to compete at our level, and Putin is one of them. 1060 01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,760 Speaker 1: I think of him as a person who has a 1061 01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:01,000 Speaker 1: terrible hand, which he plays brilliantly, but he looked intuitively 1062 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:05,120 Speaker 1: for those opportunistic moments where he can really make a 1063 01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:09,160 Speaker 1: difference at relatively minimum risk. I've come to believe this 1064 01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,880 Speaker 1: is actually he's dealing with what he has, but it 1065 01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:14,720 Speaker 1: is a strategy that he has chosen to execute. In 1066 01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,200 Speaker 1: other words, instead of trying to really find a reset 1067 01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,559 Speaker 1: with the West, he is using the old playbook. It's 1068 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,840 Speaker 1: not he's doing it because this is the only playbook 1069 01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,320 Speaker 1: to be played. I think this is where I think 1070 01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:28,200 Speaker 1: he's going to be so hard to deal with. I mean, 1071 01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:30,720 Speaker 1: I think President Trump was right to try and do 1072 01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:32,360 Speaker 1: a reset, but if he stand back, it's if the 1073 01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:34,920 Speaker 1: other guy doesn't want to reset, good luck. And I 1074 01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:39,280 Speaker 1: think what has been amply demonstrated in the past two 1075 01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:43,400 Speaker 1: years is Putin likes this tough guy strategy around the world, 1076 01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:45,479 Speaker 1: and he thinks he's back in the Cold War. The 1077 01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,120 Speaker 1: only difference between his notes I think he's actually embraced 1078 01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:50,760 Speaker 1: the strategy and thinks it's a good one. Oh no, 1079 01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,720 Speaker 1: I don't just do that. My point was that strategically, 1080 01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:56,719 Speaker 1: in the long run, he has a very weak hand, 1081 01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:00,800 Speaker 1: but his operational style is actually opportunity. I think it's 1082 01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:02,640 Speaker 1: handled very well. I mean, I give him an a 1083 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,840 Speaker 1: for handling an FT strategy. Part of what we tried 1084 01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,679 Speaker 1: to deal with in Collusion is the idea these guys 1085 01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:13,200 Speaker 1: are dangerous because they do have nuclear weapons and because 1086 01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:16,320 Speaker 1: they will do things you can't imagine, I mean, like 1087 01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:19,080 Speaker 1: killing spies in Britain, Which gets me to one of 1088 01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,759 Speaker 1: the things that I'm just curious about. Were there really 1089 01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,720 Speaker 1: like a dozen Russians planted deeply in New Jersey? And 1090 01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,480 Speaker 1: as the TV shows that was so popular the Americans 1091 01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:33,680 Speaker 1: bear any relationship to reality. It's one of my favorite 1092 01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:36,120 Speaker 1: shows in the context that has a lot of good 1093 01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,280 Speaker 1: what we would call on the business tradecraft. Now you 1094 01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:42,519 Speaker 1: take out the sensational part, I mean, I think they 1095 01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,920 Speaker 1: were more sleepers, but the fact that there are people 1096 01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,880 Speaker 1: that are deep embedded in other states has been part 1097 01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:53,120 Speaker 1: since nineteen seventeen, we've had people embedded in the system. 1098 01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:55,800 Speaker 1: What I look at it, I asked myself, what the 1099 01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,200 Speaker 1: hell were they doing? You know, I don't think anyone 1100 01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:01,839 Speaker 1: there was answered that question adequately, but they were indeed 1101 01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:04,880 Speaker 1: assets the government putin I think actually ended up dating 1102 01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:09,040 Speaker 1: one of them. Chapman the model looking the ball, if 1103 01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,960 Speaker 1: you will. So there is some reality here. And I said, 1104 01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,160 Speaker 1: Americans are slow to accept the fact that, you know, 1105 01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,720 Speaker 1: people can come and pay that kind of price and 1106 01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,280 Speaker 1: become what I'm trying to think of the one from 1107 01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:25,160 Speaker 1: Bridges Spies Tom Hanks played. I mean it was back 1108 01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,439 Speaker 1: in the fifties, which was you know, felt it was 1109 01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:31,519 Speaker 1: totally embedded in America. Colonel Label, Yeah, he was a 1110 01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:34,880 Speaker 1: genuinely deep agent who I think was prepared to live 1111 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:36,160 Speaker 1: with the rest of his life if he had to. 1112 01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,240 Speaker 1: And this is what I think people and they need 1113 01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,759 Speaker 1: to understand that just like the couple in the movie, 1114 01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,639 Speaker 1: the Americans, I mean this is they built a whole life, 1115 01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,799 Speaker 1: a new identity. Now where we got lucky And Colonel 1116 01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:53,160 Speaker 1: Label's case is he had a deputy who was a 1117 01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:57,040 Speaker 1: disaster as a spy and ended up it was at 1118 01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,680 Speaker 1: a drinking problem, but he also stole money and he 1119 01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,680 Speaker 1: knew that the KGB was going to come in and 1120 01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,880 Speaker 1: get them, so he defected in Paris and told us 1121 01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,120 Speaker 1: about it. You know, he didn't know able by name. 1122 01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,800 Speaker 1: I'm in New York, as you know, and when I 1123 01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,479 Speaker 1: go by Central Park, there's a tavern and the green 1124 01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:18,880 Speaker 1: and they have a board and they used to have 1125 01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,120 Speaker 1: they used to put stick pins in there to designate 1126 01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:25,799 Speaker 1: whether there was a meeting and where they have the meeting. Abel, 1127 01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:28,840 Speaker 1: he knew that there was. He didn't know Abel's name 1128 01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:31,000 Speaker 1: the way he met him, but he had enough to 1129 01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:34,880 Speaker 1: identifying data. And this is the same guy. And it's 1130 01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:37,439 Speaker 1: actually accurate, not well played in the movie. It's not 1131 01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,439 Speaker 1: developed well. But there was a coin. It was hollowed out, 1132 01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:45,680 Speaker 1: and then there was you know, a microfilm, and this 1133 01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:49,160 Speaker 1: deputy paid the newspaper boy in New York the coin. 1134 01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:52,719 Speaker 1: The father saw the coin, brought it to the FBI. 1135 01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:55,160 Speaker 1: The FBI knew three or four years ahead of time. 1136 01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:59,160 Speaker 1: They couldn't find them until this guy eventually affected. So 1137 01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,599 Speaker 1: they've been. It's part of the game. It's been. It's 1138 01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:06,960 Speaker 1: they called them deep undercover. Most it's a really hard life. 1139 01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,960 Speaker 1: I know many on our side and it's a very 1140 01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,920 Speaker 1: lonely existence. So it's almost like being a missionary for 1141 01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:18,120 Speaker 1: your side. You decided to sublimate your entire life, living 1142 01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,680 Speaker 1: out an alternative life. That's a pretty hard existence. I 1143 01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:24,400 Speaker 1: actually met one fellow and only one when you joined 1144 01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,000 Speaker 1: the agency, at least when I did. You could tell 1145 01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,320 Speaker 1: your parents and your spouse. But I actually knew a 1146 01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:33,560 Speaker 1: fellow who was you know, it was from the previous generation. 1147 01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:36,960 Speaker 1: But why or how he just did His wife didn't 1148 01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:39,400 Speaker 1: know he worked at CIA. I mean, I don't know 1149 01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:42,240 Speaker 1: how you do it. But if she was able to 1150 01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:46,400 Speaker 1: tell people, that told my wife and I told my father, 1151 01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:51,320 Speaker 1: which I was authorized. But what he did is told 1152 01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,680 Speaker 1: the whole world, all my cousins and aunts. And so 1153 01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,639 Speaker 1: every time I took the polygraphy, did you tell anybody? 1154 01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:58,639 Speaker 1: Now I didn't tell it. I told my wife, my father. 1155 01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:01,160 Speaker 1: They didn't ask me to second question, did your father 1156 01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,280 Speaker 1: tell anybody? And there was even a rumor which I 1157 01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:07,080 Speaker 1: refused to check, that he actually put an article to 1158 01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:09,760 Speaker 1: Delaware County Times saying my son to spy. You know, 1159 01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:14,839 Speaker 1: so I was undercover like many all CIA people abroad. 1160 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,800 Speaker 1: But there are those that are way out there at 1161 01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:21,439 Speaker 1: the end with no connection, and it's a very lonely, 1162 01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:24,240 Speaker 1: hard life, and you get and that's why I think 1163 01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,479 Speaker 1: you get a picture of that in the Americans. I'm 1164 01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,280 Speaker 1: very grateful you take this time to talk with this night. 1165 01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:33,320 Speaker 1: I think people will find it fascinating. You. You know, 1166 01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:35,599 Speaker 1: you both have had a remarkable career, and you also 1167 01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,240 Speaker 1: obviously kept learning every year in that process, and I 1168 01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,479 Speaker 1: think your observations are really helpful. Well, dude, I enjoyed 1169 01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:44,800 Speaker 1: the discussion. It's been a great pleasure talking to you. 1170 01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:55,960 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests Peter Early, Amy Knight and 1171 01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,920 Speaker 1: Jack Divine. You can see an exert from my new 1172 01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:03,240 Speaker 1: novel Collusion, and explore the stories of famous Russian poisoning 1173 01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:08,040 Speaker 1: cases throughout time on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 1174 01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:12,200 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Westwood One. The executive producer is 1175 01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:16,439 Speaker 1: Debbie Myers. Our producer is Garnsey Slap, Our editor is 1176 01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:21,400 Speaker 1: Robert Boroski. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for 1177 01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:25,200 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley. The music was 1178 01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:28,920 Speaker 1: composed by Joey Salvia. Special thanks to the team at 1179 01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:33,400 Speaker 1: Gingwich three sixty and Westwood Ones, Tim Sabian and Robert Mathers. 1180 01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:37,560 Speaker 1: Please email me with your comments at newt at newtsworld 1181 01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:41,559 Speaker 1: dot com. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll 1182 01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:44,439 Speaker 1: go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five 1183 01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:47,680 Speaker 1: stars and give us a review so others can learn 1184 01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:51,480 Speaker 1: what it's all about. On the next episode of Newtsworld, 1185 01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,839 Speaker 1: we're taking on the topic of opioids and pain management 1186 01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:58,479 Speaker 1: in the military and veteran community. I'm pleased to welcome 1187 01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:03,000 Speaker 1: as my guests General Schumaker and doctor Tripp Buckenmeyer, who 1188 01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:05,920 Speaker 1: both served on the Pain Management Task Force and are 1189 01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:09,839 Speaker 1: currently at the Defense and Veteran Center for Integrated Pain Management. 1190 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:14,040 Speaker 1: What we really determined mostly because of the service members 1191 01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,680 Speaker 1: expressing to us that while they were begging us for 1192 01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:19,760 Speaker 1: pain management and begging for these opioids because they are 1193 01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:23,120 Speaker 1: so effective at reducing pain intensity, if they would have 1194 01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:27,520 Speaker 1: known what that meant to their eventual recovery and rehabilitation, 1195 01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:29,640 Speaker 1: they would have begged us to come up with some 1196 01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,160 Speaker 1: other ideas. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is News World.