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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert Plant. In this episode of the podcast,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be chatting with science journalist and author

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Boyle about her new book, Our Moon, How Earth's

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Speaker 2: Celestial Companion Transformed the Planet. It's such a good read,

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Speaker 2: highly recommend it, as I'll touch on later in the

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Speaker 2: interview itself. This is a great week to read a

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Speaker 2: book about the moon, because of course we're getting into

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Speaker 2: celebrations of lunar New Year. So without further ado, let's

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Speaker 2: get right to that interview. Hi, Rebecca, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: So the new book is Our Moon, How Earth's Celestial

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Speaker 2: Companion Transformed the Planet, out now in physical, ebook and

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Speaker 2: audio formats. Can you tell us what inspired you to

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Speaker 2: write book.

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Speaker 3: I remember being a kid and sitting on the floor

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Speaker 3: of my elementary school library, probably in fifth grade, and

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Speaker 3: listening to a vinyl record of the Apollo Transcript or

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Speaker 3: the the Apollo Recordings, and just being blown away and

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Speaker 3: like I couldn't believe that they were actually up there.

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Speaker 3: And I would look at the moon at night and

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Speaker 3: it felt so far away but also so close and

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Speaker 3: so much a part of my life that this sort

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Speaker 3: of just it blew my mind the idea of people

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Speaker 3: walking around up there, and I think I never lost

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Speaker 3: that connection, you know. I write about astronomy a lot

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Speaker 3: right now, and often the moon is sort of like

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Speaker 3: it gets short shrifts, it's kind of annoying for astronomers,

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Speaker 3: like it's really bright, it's up all the time. If

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Speaker 3: you're trying to study distant galaxies and quasars and things

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Speaker 3: like that, it's actually an obstacle. So I often find

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Speaker 3: myself kind of defending it and like, no, the moon

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Speaker 3: is really special and the moon is cool, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's sort of how I first approached this,

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Speaker 3: was like I want this to be an appreciation of

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Speaker 3: the moon, and then as I started writing it, it

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Speaker 3: became more like, no, the moon is really actually super

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Speaker 3: important for everything that's ever happened here, and the book

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Speaker 3: turned into more of an argument about that, like the

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Speaker 3: moon is central to our existence and it's not just

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Speaker 3: this beautiful thing that we should care about. It's like

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Speaker 3: it's the reason we're here.

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Speaker 2: In your first chapter, you discuss the environment of the moon,

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Speaker 2: and I guess some of this we perhaps get from

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Speaker 2: just by being familiar with the famous footage of lunar

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Speaker 2: landings and sort of general mainstream understanding of the moon.

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Speaker 2: But what details of the lunar environment do you feel

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Speaker 2: are most often lacking from sort of mainstream understanding of

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Speaker 2: this environment.

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Speaker 3: I think the thing that I go back to is

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Speaker 3: the sharpness, and I mean sharp in terms of the light,

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Speaker 3: like the contrast between light and dark. There's no atmosphere

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Speaker 3: to refract the light at all and soften the sun's

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Speaker 3: glare or to kind of bring light into the sh shadows.

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Speaker 3: It's all literally black or white, like there's either complete

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Speaker 3: sunlight or complete darkness and sharpness just physically, the rocks

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Speaker 3: themselves are really jagged and blocky, and you know, crystalline sharp.

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Speaker 3: Literally the dust itself is sharp. Dust on Earth is soft,

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Speaker 3: and it's mostly from life. I mean most dust is

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Speaker 3: from like human skin and pet dander and pollen and

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Speaker 3: sort of the discards of living things. And it's always

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Speaker 3: sort of rounded and kind of you know, softened by

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Speaker 3: life and by by Earth itself, by wind and rain

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Speaker 3: and erosion. And there's nothing like that on the Moon.

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Speaker 3: So even the dust is like little knives, And I

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Speaker 3: don't think people think about that, you know, when we

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Speaker 3: imagine being back up there. It was really annoying for

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Speaker 3: the Apollo astronauts. They would breathe it in and they'd

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Speaker 3: go inside the Lunar lander and take their helmets off,

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Speaker 3: and they would all reported this like stuffy nose congestion.

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Speaker 3: It was like itchy and they would be coughing. You know,

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Speaker 3: was really irritating, and it's because it was really abrasive.

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Speaker 3: It's really terrible to breathe it in and to have

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Speaker 3: it on you, and it's also really staticky, like it's

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Speaker 3: really difficult to get off because you know, again there's

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Speaker 3: no water, there's no atmosphere, there's no moisture at all

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Speaker 3: to sort of take the edge off, and so it

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Speaker 3: sticks to everything with static electricity and it's really difficult

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Speaker 3: to remove. So the dust is going to be a

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Speaker 3: huge obstacle I think for people going back up there.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think we think about just like the

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Speaker 3: sharpness of the moon, it's not like Earth.

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Speaker 2: Now. One of the things that I love about the book,

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Speaker 2: and I think our listeners are going to really get

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Speaker 2: into as well, is that, of course you discuss the

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Speaker 2: history as we understand it of the moon. You get

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Speaker 2: into the human and also the human history of our

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Speaker 2: understanding of it, and both scientific and folklore, mythological, etc.

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Speaker 2: What did the ancient Sumerians seemingly get right about the

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Speaker 2: creation of Earth's moon?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. This was something I found just

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Speaker 3: researching the book. I got really into Samerian history and

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Speaker 3: Babylonian history and a Syrian you know, all these different

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Speaker 3: cultures that spanned the area what's now Iraq and parts

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Speaker 3: of Syria and Iran, and this is sort of the

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Speaker 3: first literate civilizations on Earth. The first written records come

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Speaker 3: from Sumerian culture, and some of the oldest creation stories

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Speaker 3: are from Sumerian age, and one of them is this,

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Speaker 3: they're the creation tablets, which are these literally like tablets

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Speaker 3: like you imagine, you know, Moses holding these clay tablets

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Speaker 3: that were handed down and it's the same that literally

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Speaker 3: is the same thing. This is how people were keeping

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Speaker 3: written records at the time on clay tablets that would

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Speaker 3: harden in the sun. And the Sumerian creation tales have

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Speaker 3: these whole long stories of how the Earth and the

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Speaker 3: moon and the oceans came to be and the story

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Speaker 3: is that there were these two kind of god monsters

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Speaker 3: and they were separate deities, but then they got married,

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Speaker 3: you know, they united, and their union gave birth to

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Speaker 3: all the other lesser gods, and then these gods kind

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Speaker 3: of started conspiring, you know, as many mythologies hold these

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Speaker 3: sorts of stories. People were arguing about, you know, who

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Speaker 3: was in charge, who was more powerful, And these are

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Speaker 3: like spirit deities but also human, you know, human form.

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Speaker 3: There were two main gods, Apsu and Tiamat. And I'm

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Speaker 3: probably butchering the pronunciation. So Tiamat is salty water, which

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Speaker 3: is the oceans, Apsu is fresh water. And after they

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Speaker 3: you know, are united in this sacred marriage, Tiamat gives

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Speaker 3: birth to all the other gods of creation. And there

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Speaker 3: are a few different translations of this story, and the

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Speaker 3: one that I liked is Stephanie Dolly translation missed from Mesopotamia.

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Speaker 3: And in this version, the younger gods and newer gods

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Speaker 3: are like loud and annoying and braddy and disrespectful and so,

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Speaker 3: and Apsu can't sleep, so he decides to destroy them.

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Speaker 3: Tiamat is upset about this and wants to protect her

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Speaker 3: young so she alerts the older son Anki, who's the

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Speaker 3: god of wisdom, and Enki kills Apsu, and it's this

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Speaker 3: great battle, and in the battle, you know, the gods

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Speaker 3: are destroyed and torn apart. Tiamat herself doesn't survive, and

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Speaker 3: she's rendered in two and one half of her becomes

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Speaker 3: the heavens and the other half becomes the Earth. And

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Speaker 3: I just enjoyed reading about this mythology as I was

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Speaker 3: reading about the Sumerians, because I was trying to connect

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Speaker 3: the oldest written languages to our understanding of the moon.

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Speaker 3: But it turned out to be a really useful metaphor

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Speaker 3: for the formation of the moon, because a very similar

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Speaker 3: thing happens. You know, this sort of other being of

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Speaker 3: their planet arrives in Earth's orbit and destroys Earth, and

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Speaker 3: one half becomes the Earth and one half becomes the Moon.

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Speaker 3: And I felt like it was a helpful way for

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Speaker 3: me to imagine this event, and it just seemed like

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Speaker 3: a useful metaphor for what actually.

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Speaker 2: Happened now, which is the most widely accepted moon formation

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Speaker 2: theory today.

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Speaker 3: So this is still a pretty active area of debate,

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Speaker 3: which I find is super interesting because I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: the moon like shouldn't we know, Like don't you think

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Speaker 3: we should have a better idea of what happened. But

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Speaker 3: there are some really interesting things about the Moon, and

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Speaker 3: one is that it's very unique in the Solar System.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing else like this. It's huge relative to Earth.

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Speaker 3: It's really far away from Earth, and you know, it

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Speaker 3: has this sort of density that's lighter than Earth, but

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Speaker 3: yet it's materials. It's like down to the atoms in

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Speaker 3: the rocks of the Moon, it's almost identical to Earth.

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Speaker 3: In some cases it is identical to Earth. So there's

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Speaker 3: all these sort of weird characteristics. And this is a

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Speaker 3: difficult story to disentangle. You know, we think, and we've

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Speaker 3: learned in Apollo that probably would happen was this giant impact.

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Speaker 3: And this is just called the giant impact theory, so

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Speaker 3: that at some point early in Earth's history, another planet

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Speaker 3: was moving around the same orbit as Earth collided with

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Speaker 3: our early planet and both this impact are Thea, which

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Speaker 3: is the Greek god that's the mother of the moon

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Speaker 3: Seline in Greek mythology, So we name this planet THEA

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Speaker 3: crashes into Earth. Earth and Thea are totally destroyed, and

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Speaker 3: somehow in the cloud of debris that follows Earth and

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Speaker 3: the Moon both coalesce, and this is one way of

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Speaker 3: describing how they can look so alike but yet be

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Speaker 3: so different and distinct worlds. But the particulars of this

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Speaker 3: are still really hotly debated, actually, and we're not really

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Speaker 3: sure how this went down. And some of it is

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Speaker 3: because we know that the Moon is there, we know

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Speaker 3: its size, we know its speed relative to Earth, how

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Speaker 3: far it's moving away from us, how quickly it's leaving us,

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Speaker 3: and all its rotation speed, our rotation speed, all these

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Speaker 3: factors have to come into play, like there are some

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Speaker 3: just physical facts that we have to explain, and yet

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Speaker 3: some of the other physical evidence doesn't really seem to

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Speaker 3: match up with our models of how this could be.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of people working on this and

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Speaker 3: trying to figure out exactly how this could have happened.

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Speaker 3: And it's interesting to me for a few reasons. And

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Speaker 3: one is just I mean, like I said, it's the Moon,

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Speaker 3: like we should know.

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Speaker 2: Don't you want to know?

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Speaker 1: Like is it?

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Speaker 3: Wouldn't it be amazing to know how the Moon got

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Speaker 3: here and how we all got here and how those

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Speaker 3: things are related. And I think it's also just really

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Speaker 3: interesting because it has implications for the history of evolution

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Speaker 3: on Earth. You know, if this is a really unique system,

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Speaker 3: if there's no other place like Earth and our moon

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Speaker 3: in the Solar system, which that's the case, maybe that's

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Speaker 3: the case for other Solar systems, you know, maybe other

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Speaker 3: stars that have rocky planets in the habitable zones, maybe

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Speaker 3: those need a large moon sort of sculpting their existence

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Speaker 3: for life to be able to take hold. And I

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Speaker 3: think if we can come to understand a little bit

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Speaker 3: more about how our moon got here, that will give

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Speaker 3: us some insight into how unique we are maybe in

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Speaker 3: the whole broader universe.

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Speaker 2: Based on your research, and you get into this quite

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Speaker 2: a bit in the book, do you think life would

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Speaker 2: have been possible on Earth without our moon and or

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Speaker 2: what might life have looked like without the moon's influence?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think about this a lot. I mean, we

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Speaker 3: don't know, you know, how life arose here. We don't

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Speaker 3: know exactly when, we don't know exactly where. We have

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Speaker 3: some good ideas we think probably it was in the oceans,

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Speaker 3: either in deep ocean events on these mid ocean ridges

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Speaker 3: where Earth's crust sort of has these rifts in it,

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Speaker 3: or somewhere closer to the surface in tidal pools, and

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Speaker 3: these sort of like cycles of hydration and dehydration where

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Speaker 3: the tide comes in, it moistens the rocks, it flows

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Speaker 3: in more fresh water, and then the tide recedes and

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Speaker 3: the water dries up, and you know, it sort of

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Speaker 3: becomes thicker and murkier, and some interesting chemical reactions can

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Speaker 3: happen in that sort of cycle of ebb and flow,

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think the Moon is really responsible

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Speaker 3: for both of those effects. If life evolved in tidal pools,

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Speaker 3: if it originated there, then we can thank the moon

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Speaker 3: for that flux of water. If life originated in the

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Speaker 3: deep ocean, the Moon's probably what dragged it up and

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Speaker 3: mixed the entire ocean and stirred it, you know, like

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Speaker 3: a ladle stirring a pot of soup. Like imagine spinning

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Speaker 3: your spoon around in a big stock pot and all

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Speaker 3: of the onions kind of like flow up to the surface.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's what the moon does through its tide.

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Speaker 3: And so either way, I think the Moon played a

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Speaker 3: huge role in fostering the evolution of life, if it

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Speaker 3: didn't spark it into being in the first place, and

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Speaker 3: maybe that also happened. We never We're never gonna know,

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Speaker 3: but I do think the Moon's role in early evolution

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Speaker 3: has probably been overlooked.

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Speaker 2: I like the soup analogy though, because, yeah, you can

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Speaker 2: imagine like a soup that has never stirred as ingredients

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Speaker 2: are added. So even as I guess, as you have

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Speaker 2: increasingly more complex forms of life, right, they're not going

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Speaker 2: to necessarily be moved around the entire planet, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They're not going to be able to move round. They're

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Speaker 3: not going to be able to access the nutrients they

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Speaker 3: need to feed themselves. You know, even if it's not

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Speaker 3: just the life forms themselves, but the nutrients in the

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Speaker 3: ocean and just material from runoff from the land into

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Speaker 3: the water and how those things mix, those would have

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Speaker 3: all sunk to the bottom and just been silt and

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Speaker 3: couldn't have been used by the chain of life. And

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, the Moon's tide has a huge

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Speaker 3: influence on the movement of water from the deep ocean

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Speaker 3: up to the surface. And we know that that's true,

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Speaker 3: and we know that was true when it was much

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Speaker 3: closer earlier in Earth history, and it was probably having

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Speaker 3: an even bigger effect on all that material in the water.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned just how familiar we are with the moon.

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Speaker 2: It's easy to sort of take it for granted. One

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Speaker 2: of the interesting things about the moon that you point

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Speaker 2: out in the book of this of that, of course,

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Speaker 2: the moon is roughly the same size as our Sun

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Speaker 2: as visible from the earth, like making things like a

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Speaker 2: solar eclipse possible. How do you think that you cover

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Speaker 2: multiple ancient and traditional interpretations of the moon in your book,

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Speaker 2: how do you think the general flavor of global traditions

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Speaker 2: might have differed if the Sun and the Moon were

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Speaker 2: not roughly the same size in the sky.

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Speaker 3: That's a good question. I mean, this is a fun

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Speaker 3: thing to think about because I think it makes so

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Speaker 3: much sense to people that they were sort of opposites

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Speaker 3: because of the fact that they look the same. You know,

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Speaker 3: occasionally the moon blocks the Sun. People for a long

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Speaker 3: time had no idea that was happening physically, like people

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Speaker 3: guessed at it in antiquity, but a until you know,

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Speaker 3: the earliest sort of written literate cultures, people had no

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Speaker 3: way of understanding what was happening. And even the ancient

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Speaker 3: Greeks didn't really understand what was happening. They didn't know

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Speaker 3: what the moon was and I think because they're roughly

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Speaker 3: the same size. I mean, they look the same size

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Speaker 3: in the sky. It's sort of an obvious, you know.

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Speaker 3: The idea of opposite yin and yang is one of

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Speaker 3: the Chinese traditions, you know, coming and going, black and white,

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Speaker 3: male and female, all these sort of dualities that people have,

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Speaker 3: death and life and death and resurrection. The moon is

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Speaker 3: an interesting way to represent those ideas. And the moon

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Speaker 3: and the sun together there's one that lights the day

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Speaker 3: and one that lights the night. I mean, that's in Genesis.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the first lines of the Old Testament

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Speaker 3: that you know, on the seventh day, you know, Earth

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Speaker 3: is created, but he gives us the sun to light

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Speaker 3: the day and the moon to light the night, and

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Speaker 3: the second light is the moon. So I think it's

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Speaker 3: just a natural way of imagining the cosmos, like, of

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Speaker 3: course there is one in the day, and of course

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Speaker 3: there's one at night. Like why wouldn't that be, you know,

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Speaker 3: And so if the moon was very different, or if

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Speaker 3: it was small, or if it was maybe like the

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Speaker 3: moons of Mars, these like dinky little asteroid crumbs, you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe we wouldn't have had that mythic grasp on opposites

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Speaker 3: the way that we do because of this lunar symbolism.

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Speaker 2: Now dipping into a current and future lunar exploration. Did

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Speaker 2: you think there's a substantial scientific advantage to sending human

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Speaker 2: beings back to the Moon and as opposed to sticking

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Speaker 2: strictly with probes and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I definitely do, And I think there's a few

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Speaker 3: reasons why. You know, there's no substitute for human eyes,

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Speaker 3: and no substitute for human judgment, and a human pilot,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, one of them, maybe lesser known

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Speaker 3: now but more well known examples from Apollo is Neil

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Speaker 3: Armstrong's landing. Like he's. They were pretty off their target

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Speaker 3: when they first arrived, and the eagles descending toward the

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Speaker 3: lunar's surface, they missed their landing spot by a few miles,

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Speaker 3: and you know, they're running out of fuel. He has

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Speaker 3: to land, and he has to make a decision really

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Speaker 3: quickly and set down without dipping over. Not on the

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Speaker 3: rim of a crater, but in a pretty flat area,

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Speaker 3: not on one leg on a boulder, but like in

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Speaker 3: a pretty clear field, so that the whole thing is

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Speaker 3: standing upright. So they can get home, and you know,

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Speaker 3: he pulls it off. And I think, if we didn't

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Speaker 3: have a human pilot, an exceptional human pilot in Neil Armstrong,

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Speaker 3: we've seen what happens. I mean, japan just landed on

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Speaker 3: the Moon a few weeks ago in January, and it

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Speaker 3: flipped over and it sent telemetry. This lander, slim Is

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Speaker 3: its acronym, is still there and they're hoping that sunlight

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Speaker 3: on the panels will continue to let it wake up.

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Speaker 3: As the Moon or wits the Earth and the Sun

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Speaker 3: and the angle of light changes, it brings more sunlight

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Speaker 3: onto its solar panels. But it landed belly up, essentially.

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Speaker 3: And you know, this was a very complicated and very

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Speaker 3: detailed so built by the Japanese Space Agency, which just

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Speaker 3: had an incredibly success landing on asteroids, you know and

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Speaker 3: other planets like Jack say's one of the best space

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Speaker 3: agencies in terms of successes, and they still had issues

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Speaker 3: and they crashed a few months prior to that in

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Speaker 3: a different lunar attempt, and so you know, I think

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Speaker 3: there's even just getting there physically. There's no substitute for

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00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 3: a really well trained and equipped pilot. And then you know,

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00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,680
Speaker 3: when they were on the Moon. The astronauts have spent

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Speaker 3: a lot of time doing geology training in Hawaii and Arizona,

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Speaker 3: just sort of being able to understand how rocks looked

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Speaker 3: different from one another and what that might mean. And

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Speaker 3: Neil Armstrong grabbed the first samples and within a few

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Speaker 3: minutes of touching down and there still some of the

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Speaker 3: best samples we got because he knew what he was

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Speaker 3: looking for. And successive missions too had really detailed astronaut training.

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Speaker 3: The last Apaullo mission, A Paulo seventeen had a geologist,

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Speaker 3: Jack Schmidt, was a trained field geologist, and he had

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Speaker 3: some specific things he wanted and he knew what to

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Speaker 3: look for him and these are really important samples to

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Speaker 3: this day. So I think, you know, having people up

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Speaker 3: there walking around making judgment calls, snap decisions the way

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Speaker 3: humans can do. There's even with the most advanced technology

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Speaker 3: we have, robots are no substitute, I think for human brains.

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Speaker 3: And I think there's something more sort of just fundamental

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Speaker 3: about it. I don't think I think that humans being

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Speaker 3: up there and connecting the rest of humanity to the

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Speaker 3: Moon through their presence is just an irreplaceable phenomenon like

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Speaker 3: a robot being up there is not quite as impressive,

359
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,360
Speaker 3: and their robots are awesome, you know. We've landed cars

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Speaker 3: on Mars and helicopter on Mars, you know, and these

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Speaker 3: are incredible pieces of technology that are our extensions of

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Speaker 3: our ideas and our ingenuity. But I still think humans

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Speaker 3: being able to walk up there and transcend that boundary

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Speaker 3: is just irreplaceable.

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Speaker 2: Now, human spacecraft first reached the Mids in nineteen fifty nine,

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Speaker 2: and humans landed on the Moon for the first time

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty nine. What might we expect to happen

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Speaker 2: on the Moon with humans and or probes between now

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Speaker 2: and twenty fifty nine and twenty sixty nine.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it depends on how you ask. I think

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of people who are really excited

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Speaker 3: about people being up there permanently, and that the beginning

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Speaker 3: of that will be happening here pretty soon. In twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four, NASA's Artemis program intends to land the first woman,

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Speaker 3: the first person of color on the Moon, become you know,

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Speaker 3: the first to go back to the Moon since we

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Speaker 3: left it in nineteen seventy two, And there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of momentum for that, and I think you know, we'll see,

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Speaker 3: we'll see how quickly it happens. At NASA's goal is

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Speaker 3: to land by no earlier than September of twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: six as of right now, but that could change and

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Speaker 3: probably will change, because they have a lot of reasons

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Speaker 3: to be thlowing things down, because some of the companies

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00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 3: building equipment to get there are having issues or taking

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00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 3: a long time to finish their tasks. So these things

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00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 3: take time. And I think, you know, no one's really

387
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Speaker 3: expecting it to happen overnight, but I think by twenty

388
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Speaker 3: fifty nine, by twenty sixty nine, you know, a century

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Speaker 3: after the first lunar landings, I think it's very likely

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Speaker 3: that we'll have permanent human habitation up there in some

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00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 3: sort of modest settlement, you know, with with really austere conditions,

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Speaker 3: and you know, people who are really well trained and

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Speaker 3: well equipped to be able to live there for chunks

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Speaker 3: of time. I don't think it's going to be, you know,

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Speaker 3: a city. I don't envision it being this permanent, like

396
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 3: you know. I one analogy I think of sometimes looking

397
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Speaker 3: at moon exploration in the future is sort of Western

398
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 3: expansion in the US, and I think this is sometimes

399
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 3: problematic because some of that language is still very much,

400
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 3: you know, wrapped up in colonial mindsets and sort of

401
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 3: trampling over land and people who got here first. And

402
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 3: you know, there are no cultures on the Moon, there

403
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 3: are no indigenous peoples on the Moon who will be oppressed.

404
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 3: But I still think that, you know, the ideas that

405
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 3: carried us into western expansion in the United States are

406
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 3: very similar to how people feel about settling the Moon,

407
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,239
Speaker 3: and I hope that we step back a little bit

408
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 3: and think about that and consider why we want to

409
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 3: be there and what we want to do. So I

410
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 3: don't know if I think it's going to be like,

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Speaker 3: you know, a company town, a railroad town, kind of

412
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 3: like depot, but I do think there will be experiments

413
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 3: up there happening, you know, repeatedly. I think there's likely

414
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 3: to be some kind of observatory on the fire side

415
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 3: doing astronomy that isn't you know, difficult or impossible from Earth.

416
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Speaker 3: I think there will be companies taking people and supplies

417
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: and scientists up there back and forth for research purposes.

418
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 3: And because that will be happening, I think there will

419
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 3: be sort of a secondary economy enabling those things, and

420
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 3: providing services, and that's one of the goals that NASA has.

421
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 3: I mean, this is the entire purpose of their Commercial

422
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 3: Learnar Payload Services program, which is to encourage startups and

423
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: small companies and big companies to develop technology that will

424
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 3: take people, even and supplies and material to the Moon

425
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: alongside NASA, where like NASA is now just a ride

426
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 3: share partner as opposed to the primary reason that we go.

427
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 3: And I think that's probably going to happen. It just

428
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: might take longer than people think.

429
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Speaker 2: Now internationally that there is interest in mining on the Moon. Correct,

430
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: what are they looking to? Mind? What are the main objects?

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00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: There are a few things that might be of value,

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Speaker 3: and I mean mostly it's per material that would be

433
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: used up there. So there's not much that's really valuable

434
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 3: on the Moon that we don't have on Earth. There

435
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: are a few things, but you know, it's still way

436
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 3: easier to mine for rare earth metals on this planet

437
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,360
Speaker 3: than it is to go to the Moon and get

438
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 3: them and come back. But there are things like helium

439
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 3: three is a potential resource. This is like a volatile

440
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 3: form of helium that could be used to power nuclear reactors. Potentially,

441
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 3: there's a lot of water, and it's not like lakes

442
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 3: you know, or aquifers like we imagine on Earth, but

443
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 3: it's probably locked up in hydrated minerals more like you know,

444
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 3: the oil sands, or maybe in ices, you know, flat

445
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 3: fields of ice at the bottoms of permanently shadowed craters,

446
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: and that could be used either for just human use

447
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 3: or more likely for rocket fuel. If you can split

448
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 3: up the hydrogen and oxygen bonds and water, then you

449
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 3: have hydrogen and you have oxygen, and those can be

450
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 3: refined into rocket fuel. And if that would be really

451
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 3: nice to have if you're going to go back home

452
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: to Earth you don't need to bring as much with you,

453
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 3: or if you want to go on somewhere else further

454
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: afield to Mars or asteroids or who knows, it would

455
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 3: be nice to have a fuel depot at the Moon

456
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 3: where you don't need to take as much fuel off

457
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 3: Earth with you as you leave.

458
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 2: Now, in terms of conservation on the Moon, which you've

459
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 2: touched on already, is it how much do we have

460
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: actually ironed out in terms of like international cooperation regarding that, Like,

461
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: I mean, we have there's so little on the Moon

462
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: that we have put there. But if all this goes

463
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: according to plan, that will change. Are there any like

464
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,719
Speaker 2: do we have any agreements in place to protect the

465
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,719
Speaker 2: Moon to any degree kind of?

466
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: So there's I mean, there's not really an international agreement

467
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 3: that everybody has signed on to. There is a nineteen

468
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 3: sixty seven Outer Space Treaty, which is you know, dates

469
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 3: to the Apollo Ara and the Space Race. And there

470
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 3: are new Artemis Accords, which is set up by NASA

471
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: but has a bunch of signatories. I think Belgium just

472
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 3: became the forty fourth country to sign on to the

473
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:56,360
Speaker 3: Artemis Accords. And this is sort of a multilateral international agreement.

474
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 3: It's not binding, it's not through the UN even. It's

475
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 3: sort of just all the spacefaring countries coming together to

476
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: agree to a few certain things. And mostly it's things

477
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: like interoperability of equipment, so like, if you're going to

478
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: go up there and put up capsule and have people

479
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 3: in there, let's make sure that it can dock with

480
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: you know, this other guy's Space agency equipment, so you

481
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: can help each other out if you need to. There

482
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 3: are provisions that protect lunar heritage sites, so like they

483
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: would ask you to not land like on top of

484
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 3: the Apollo eleven landing site, you know, and disturb that.

485
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: There are things like, you know, let's make sure that

486
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 3: if we extract material, that you know, we're not trampling

487
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: on someone else's ability to extract material. Some of those

488
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: provisions I think are interesting because they inherently give people

489
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: a claim. So there's there's a clause in the Artemis

490
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 3: Accords that says you can't disturb anybody else's equipment or

491
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 3: site or you know, resource material or prospecting ability. And

492
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 3: because there's no atmosphere and there's no water, there's no

493
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: any there's nothing on the Moon to sort of soften

494
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 3: your landing. Every landing and every takeoff will throw up

495
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: enormous amounts of lunar dust that will sometimes go into

496
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 3: orbit and take a long time to settle, and it

497
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: will be really abrasive. And so if we all have

498
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 3: to agree that we're not going to disturb somebody else's

499
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: landing site, then a landing site becomes that country's or

500
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: that companies or that you know, whoever, whatever entity can

501
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 3: land up there is sort of staking a claim to

502
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 3: that location under the Artemisic Coords. And this is not official.

503
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 3: It's not like they've all said like, this is mine,

504
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 3: my flag's there, it's my spot. But if you're all

505
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: agreeing to not disturb one on another's locations, and that's

506
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 3: sort of inherent, you know that these are you're staking

507
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: a claim in a way. And not every country is

508
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 3: this signatory to the artomistic course, not every country is

509
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: a signatory to the space treating. So there's there's not

510
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 3: really an international agreement that everyone has agreed upon that

511
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 3: will protect the moon or the people going up there,

512
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 3: or the robots going up there. So it's going to

513
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 3: be very interesting to see how this all shakes out.

514
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: Now, to come back to our appreciation of the moon

515
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: on Earth and our experiences of the moon on Earth,

516
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: I was reading an article you'd written for Adams Obscura

517
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: on this topic, so I thought i'd ask this for

518
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: our listeners. What is a strawberry moon and why is

519
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: it your favorite?

520
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: So a strawberry moon is one of the names for

521
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: the twelve moons of the year. They each have different

522
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: names depending on which indigenous tradition they're used, you know,

523
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: or just history in whatever culture, whatever part of Earth

524
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 3: you're on. Most moons have a seasonal aspect to them.

525
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: In February, we have the wolf moon, there's the cold moon.

526
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: There's a bunch of other names for different There's the

527
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: harvest moon, and probably is the most famous example. But

528
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: the strawberry moon is in early June, and I love

529
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: this moon because it sort of brings summer along with it.

530
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 3: It's called the strawberry moon because that's the time of

531
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: year that strawberries are getting ripe and they're able to

532
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: be picked, and so this has the seasonal aspect. But

533
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: it sometimes even looks pink as it's rising, you know,

534
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 3: in a full moon on a summer night, through a

535
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 3: hazy atmosphere with humidity in the air because it's warm

536
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: in the Northern Hemisphere, I should say, but you know

537
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 3: in the US and Europe and northern northern Hemisphere areas,

538
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 3: it's this beginning of summer. It's right before the summer solstice.

539
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: It's the longest nights of the year, or the longest

540
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: days of the year, sorry, the shortest nights. So you

541
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: have a lot of sun and a lot of you know,

542
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: warmth in the evenings to sort of extend your day outside.

543
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 3: And the moon at this time of year is right

544
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 3: kind of in your window it's lower on the horizon.

545
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: And I don't know if people really notice this, but

546
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: if you pay attention to the location of the Sun

547
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 3: and the moon throughout the year, they do this sort

548
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: of flip like almost like double Dutch jump ropes kind

549
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: of crisscrossing in the sky. So the summer moon is

550
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 3: in the same general area of the sky as the

551
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 3: winter sun, and so in the winter the moon is

552
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: high overhead, and in the summer again in the northern

553
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: hemisphere the moon is. In the winter, the moon is

554
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: high overhead, and in the summer the moon is sort

555
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 3: of low on the southern horizon, so it feels more present.

556
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 3: I guess, like you really can't miss it if you're

557
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: walking around outside. It's so dominant on the landscape. It

558
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: looks bigger, it looks more just with you. And the

559
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: Strawberry Moon is the first really like low hanging bright

560
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: moon of the summer. So it's just my.

561
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: Favorite now with the lunar New Year celebrates happening this week,

562
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: you know, first of all, it's a great time to

563
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: pick up this terrific book on our Moon. I think

564
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: a great, great read for this time of year. But

565
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: I was wondering is there anything you might encourage new

566
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: Lunar New Year celebrators to remember or keep in mind

567
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: about Earth's moon in addition to you know, their their their,

568
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: their heritage and culture.

569
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 3: I think if there's one thing I want people to

570
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 3: take away from this book, it's that the moon is

571
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: so much more powerful and more potent even in our

572
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: lives today than people might realize. It's so much more

573
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 3: than this beautiful nighttime companion, and it's so much more

574
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: than our ability to tell time and orient ourselves in time.

575
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: You know, the lunar New Year is a lunar solar calendar,

576
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: which is one of the few you know remaining on

577
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: Earth in current use. I mean, most of the Western

578
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: world and the civil calendar use the Gregorian calendar, which

579
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: is a version of the calendar that Julius us are

580
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: introduced forty four BC, and it's the first one in

581
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 3: the world that divorced the moon from time. And that's

582
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 3: how most people use time anymore. You know, even if

583
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: you're celebrating in a New Year as part of a

584
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: tradition in Asia, it's still not the way that you know,

585
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: global economics and global trade sort of mark time. It's

586
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 3: more of a tradition than it is a literal tool anymore.

587
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: But I think it's so much more than that. It's

588
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 3: so much more powerful over our lives than people might

589
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 3: think anymore. We have artificial light at night, we live

590
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: in a twenty four hour news cycle, we live in

591
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: a twenty four hour economic cycle, and it's easy to

592
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: sort of lose track of the Moon's importance. But I

593
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: hope people think about it in a new way after

594
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: reading this book, and that they understand how it's been

595
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: involved in literally everything that has happened here, in ways

596
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 3: that are much deeper and much more profound than I

597
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 3: realized before I wrote the book.

598
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 2: Well, Rebecca, thanks for taking time out of your day

599
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: to come on the show and chat with me here.

600
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: The book again, is Our Moon, How earth Celestial companion

601
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: Transformed the planet. It's out now. If folks want to

602
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: follow you online, where would you like them to go?

603
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 3: Well, in our very fractured online landscape. Now, I'm still

604
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 3: on Twitter x, but not it's active there anymore. Mostly

605
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 3: active on Instagram on zed by Rebecca Boyle, and I'm

606
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 3: also on like Threads and Blue Sky.

607
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: Thanks again to Rebecca Boil for taking time out of

608
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: her day to chat with me here on the podcast

609
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 2: again Our Moon, How Earth Celestial Companion Transformed the Planet

610
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: out now in I think every format you could ask for,

611
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: so again highly recommend it. Go go check it out.

612
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is, of course primarily a

613
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: science podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On

614
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: Mondays we do a listener mail episode. On Wednesdays we

615
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: do a short form episode of about three different flavors,

616
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: and then on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns

617
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: to just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema.

618
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: Thanks as always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing

619
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 2: the show, and if you would like to reach out

620
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: via email, well you can email us at contact at

621
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

622
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

623
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

624
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows