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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's me Josh. For this week's select I've

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Speaker 1: chosen our twenty nineteen episode on the Iran Contra affair.

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Speaker 1: We called it Shady in the eighties for two good reasons.

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Speaker 1: One it took place in the eighties, and two it

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Speaker 1: was probably the shadiest thing the US government has ever done.

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Speaker 1: And that's really saying something. Anyway, if you like your stuff,

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Speaker 1: you should know episodes eye popping, then prepare for this one.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's

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Speaker 1: Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry over there eating with chopstick.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact.

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Speaker 3: You know what, Jerry pulls up the chopsticks.

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Speaker 1: It's time to record.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's got she's got Facebook open and she's sitting

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Speaker 1: there with her chopstick. So it's we're recording now.

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Speaker 2: He's been fork free since eighty three.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of eighty three, your shirt, I guess it's kind

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Speaker 1: of eighty three ish.

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Speaker 3: It looks very Thomas Magnum.

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Speaker 1: It does, Chuck. It does not just the shirt, the

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Speaker 1: whole outfit. Look at the jeans, the shoes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you got the Ferrari out back.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for noticing. Man, I look like a chubby

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Speaker 1: Thomas Magnum.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because I just finished Stranger Things three and

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Speaker 2: I saw that there was a have you seen it yet?

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Speaker 3: Are you into that?

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Speaker 1: No? I like the first season. I never really got

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Speaker 1: back into it after that. No, no offense to anybody.

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Speaker 2: Sure, the main the sheriff guy, Yeah, Hopper wears a

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Speaker 2: shirt kind of like that through most of this season.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: And so someone did a cut of a like a

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Speaker 2: Magnum p I intro and had him running around and

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Speaker 2: shooting things and jumping into cars, all set to the

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Speaker 2: Magnum thing, and it really fits. All I gotta do

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Speaker 2: is throw that song with the guy with a shirt

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Speaker 2: like that Magnum.

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Speaker 1: Yep. Of course he has the mustache too. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: a mustacheless chubby Magnum.

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Speaker 3: You should wear a mustache. That looks interesting.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I do solve a lot of mysteries though.

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Speaker 3: Nothing can change a look like.

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Speaker 2: Mustaches, Oh dude, especially right, especially a.

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Speaker 1: Fake mustache, because you just put it on and bam,

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Speaker 1: you're done. Right, So I tried. I'm going to go

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Speaker 1: back to the eighty three segue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah we're here, right, We're right in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the eighties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like this was super eighties. This is as eighties

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Speaker 1: as it gets. Yeah, Iran Contra, fair, that's what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. Some people call it iron Gate. I poo

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Speaker 1: poo that name.

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Speaker 3: Iran Contra.

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Speaker 1: Sure. I remember this going on at the time, me too.

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Speaker 1: I remember watching All Over North Testify me too, and

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Speaker 1: my sister was like, he's so dreamy. Look at how

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Speaker 1: much poise he has.

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Speaker 3: He had his dress greens on right exactly those metal.

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Speaker 1: Had his boy scout three fingers up like swearing. I

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Speaker 1: really think he did do that. But even as an adult,

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Speaker 1: like everything I knew about around Contra was like, until

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Speaker 1: researching this, it was just the glossiest version.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean I was like ten and eleven, so

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Speaker 3: you were like seven and eight.

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Speaker 1: Sure, sure, but I mean like it's still over time.

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Speaker 1: As you age, you're like, oh, that's what was going

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Speaker 1: on or oh I understand that. Even as an adult,

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Speaker 1: my conception of it was not very thorough at all.

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Speaker 1: And as I dug into I'm like, this is one

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Speaker 1: of the shadiest things in Meerica has ever done yeah ever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was really great to do this, and like,

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Speaker 2: now I know it. Now I have a full understanding

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Speaker 2: of what happened. And if it ever comes up at

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Speaker 2: a party, right and people are like, oh, what was

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Speaker 2: that all about? Anyway, I'm gonna be like, wow.

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Speaker 1: Please sit down for an hour and.

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Speaker 3: I'll just pull up my smartphone and play our episodes.

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Speaker 1: Right, actually, maybe an hour and a half. We'll see

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Speaker 1: how this goes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, everyone, this is a two parter. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: buckle up, and so, uh this is part one.

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Speaker 3: I figured we'd start with the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's a really good idea.

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Speaker 2: That reminds me of my friend in college watched the movie,

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Speaker 2: Oh which one was it?

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Speaker 3: Burned Shortcuts?

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Speaker 2: The movie that was on two video cassettes? What it

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Speaker 2: was so long?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 3: I had to split him up? Was it Magnolia?

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Speaker 1: The Bridge Too Far?

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Speaker 3: I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: My friend in college, very very famously among our friends

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Speaker 2: watched the second tape first and then watched the first

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Speaker 2: tape second and didn't really put it together.

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Speaker 3: She was just like, I thought it was a little.

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Speaker 1: Confusing, really, so it was accidental.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh, and then she was like and then

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Speaker 2: she showed up in the in the second part, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, she's already dead.

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Speaker 3: She was kind of country. This is kind of funny.

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Speaker 1: This movie is one of them an achronisms. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: this is not an acronism, because we're going to be normal, smart,

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Speaker 1: singing people and start at the beginning.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: And there's really no better place to start than the

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Speaker 1: election of Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty Ronald Reagan, if

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Speaker 1: you weren't familiar with him already when he was president,

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Speaker 1: he had already been governor of California, But even before that,

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Speaker 1: he had a pretty extensive career in Hollywood. And while

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Speaker 1: he was a pretty big star in Hollywood, at least

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Speaker 1: B plus list, if not a list.

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Speaker 3: Actor, yeah him. Mean, he was a medium sized.

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Speaker 1: Star, sure, but definitely way more famous as president than

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Speaker 1: he ever was as a movie star.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 1: He learned to detest communism. Yeah, and at the time,

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Speaker 1: communism was a really big thing in Hollywood, Like it

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Speaker 1: was very fashionable, especially among the intellectuals of Hollywood. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he learned to hate it so much so that

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Speaker 1: by the time he got to be president, he had

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Speaker 1: this idea that there was. It was impossible for capitalist

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Speaker 1: democracy and communism to coexist even peacefully on earth. You

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Speaker 1: couldn't have both. You had to have one or the other.

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Speaker 1: And by god, Ronald Breagan was going to see to

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Speaker 1: it that the one that we had was a capitalist democracy.

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Speaker 2: Ye want to stamp out communism wherever it reared its head,

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Speaker 2: and it was rearing its head close to home, which

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Speaker 2: we'll see here in a second, but all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, for sure. It was called the Reagan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, bits and pieces of it were right.

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Speaker 1: And he came up with the Reagan doctrine. And the

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Speaker 1: Reagan doctrine was, we will aid any any opposition to

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Speaker 1: communism wherever it sprouts, Like if you're if you're fighting

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Speaker 1: against a communist revolution, we'll support your country. If you're

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Speaker 1: a rebel fighting against a leftist communist government, we'll help

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Speaker 1: you overthrow. That's the Reagan doctrine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, via money, via arms, via training, via covert operations

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Speaker 2: that we carried out ourselves. Yeah, there were all kinds

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Speaker 2: of ways that we could and did help stem the

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Speaker 2: flow of communism.

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Speaker 1: So there was, as you were saying, there was a

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Speaker 1: place pretty close to home where communism had sprouted up,

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Speaker 1: and that was Nicaragua down in Central America, and in

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Speaker 1: Central America in the thirties, the Sandinista government had taken

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Speaker 1: power and had held onto power well into the seventies

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Speaker 1: and by this time the early eighties, and it drove

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Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan nuts that there was a communist power right

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Speaker 1: there that was being supported by the Soviet Union through Cuba. Ostensibly.

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Speaker 1: I've never gotten the impression that this was ever conclusively proven.

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Speaker 1: They definitely got support from Cuba. But whether it was

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union who was really calling the shots of

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Speaker 1: Nicaragua or not, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, you know, to go even further

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Speaker 2: back and draw the lines a little even more clear.

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Speaker 2: The Sandinistans were named for Augusto Sandino, who led the

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Speaker 2: nationalist rebellion against what the US occupation of Central America.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's where it started.

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Speaker 2: Huh, that's where it all started. And from nineteen you know,

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Speaker 2: the US occupied. This is all part of the Banana Wars.

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Speaker 2: So we occupied Nicaragua from nineteen twelve to nineteen thirty

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Speaker 2: three for a lot of reasons, but one was like, hey,

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Speaker 2: no one's going to build a canal here unless it's us, right.

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Speaker 2: That was sort of one of the main reasons, and

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Speaker 2: that all ceased in nineteen thirty to three with Roosevelt's

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Speaker 2: Good Neighbor policy, which is basically like, we're going to

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Speaker 2: pull out in Nicaragua.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, okay, So, but we.

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Speaker 2: Had our fingers all over Central America right for many, many,

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Speaker 2: many years. And that's why when people forget or choose

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Speaker 2: not to remember when people flee horrible situations in Central

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Speaker 2: America to come to the United States now like kind

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Speaker 2: of where all these horrible situations started years and years

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Speaker 2: ago because of things that we did right well.

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Speaker 1: When Reagan became president, intervening in Nicaragua, Nick Man, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have a hard time if I can't say

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Speaker 1: Nicaragua intervening in Nicaragua became like a like first and

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Speaker 1: foremost priority for them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Almost immediately they started funding the Contras. The Contra are

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Speaker 1: the groups who were fighting against the Santa Nista government.

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Speaker 1: They were right wing groups, and they were funding them,

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Speaker 1: they were training them, like you were saying, and they're

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Speaker 1: doing all this secretly. There was an operation called Operation

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Speaker 1: Black Eagle Man that one that was something else. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So we were already funding them, and at the time,

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Speaker 1: Congress was on board. Congress was on board, especially at

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Speaker 1: first because the Republicans controlled the House. Well, you know

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Speaker 1: how when somebody comes in and just steamrolls over the

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Speaker 1: other party, usually in a presidential election, very frequently in

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Speaker 1: the midterms, the congressional midterms, there's like a backlash against that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like a house flip.

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Speaker 1: Believe it or not. That happened to Ronald Reagan in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, and the House did flip. They flipped

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Speaker 1: over to the Democrats. And that Democrat controlled House, combined

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Speaker 1: with a Newsweek cover story that came out, kind of

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Speaker 1: turned the tide against Reagan's policy on helping out in Nicaragua.

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Speaker 2: There was a CIA director named William Casey who was

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Speaker 2: he was kind of telling Congress what they needed to

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Speaker 2: hear here and there you have been here vague briefings.

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Speaker 2: That was probably a generous way to say it. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: Casey would send another guy, though, named Dwayne Dewey Clarridge.

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Speaker 2: And this is where things really went south because Clarridge

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Speaker 2: did not present well to Congress, and anytime Congress feels

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Speaker 2: like they're being subverted or ignored or like kept out

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Speaker 2: of the loop, or like not able to offer their

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Speaker 2: checks and balances on the executive branch. They really get mad,

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Speaker 2: they do. And like we're seeing that today. This is

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Speaker 2: like history just repeats itself over and over again.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. And in this particular case, the place where

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Speaker 1: where the administration, the regular administration in Congress just started

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Speaker 1: butting heads over niic Aragua, it was Duane Claridge. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, he just that's how poor a job he did.

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Speaker 1: But in his defense, he was coming from a place

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Speaker 1: where he was a CIA man through and through. And

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Speaker 1: this is less than ten years after Congress had just

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Speaker 1: basically rooted out the CIA, held public hearings. That's when

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Speaker 1: like the MK ultra came out and the fact that

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Speaker 1: they've been dosing unsuspecting Americans with LSD.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So in his defense, he was mad because they

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Speaker 2: uncovered all the awful things that.

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Speaker 1: He'd been doing, right right, right, true compassion, Chuck, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true, compassion. So Congress is starting to get a

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Speaker 1: little unhappy with this. And there was one congressman in

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Speaker 1: particular named Edward Edward Boland I believe, and he was

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Speaker 1: from Massachusetts, and he said Hey, I just read about

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Speaker 1: this cover story in Newsweek has a title America's Secret

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Speaker 1: War colon Nicaragua. Seems like they should have flip flopped that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Nicaragua colon America's Secret War.

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Speaker 3: I think they both had the same end goal.

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Speaker 1: It's fine, right, But he was like, wait.

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Speaker 2: Why am I reading about this in a magazine? Yes,

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Speaker 2: and I'm a member of Congress, right.

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Speaker 1: Because at this time, like Congress was like, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: we think we're just kind of funding things, we're maybe

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Speaker 1: helping out a little bit. This Newsweek magazine was like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's way more than that. Yeah, like there is way

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Speaker 1: more American involvement down in Nicaragua then you've been led

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Speaker 1: to believe Congress.

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Speaker 2: Like actual covert CIA ops like blowing up bridges and

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Speaker 2: blowing up buildings and you know, direct saboteur type ops.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not just here's some arms. Yeah, and then you

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Speaker 1: know you close this one eye, believe this eye open

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Speaker 1: when you're shooting. There was way more involved than that.

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Speaker 3: Or we could just do the shooting basically here, just

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Speaker 3: let me do it.

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Speaker 1: So Congress in the guys of Edward Bolan said Nope,

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Speaker 1: we're not doing that, and they passed the bowl In Amendment,

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Speaker 1: which basically said, if you cannot use CIA funds or

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Speaker 1: Department Defense Department funds to aid the Contras in Nicaragua,

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Speaker 1: it's done. Good night. Congress went to sleep.

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Speaker 2: And so that should have been the that's the end

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Speaker 2: of it, right, because Congress passed a well it was

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Speaker 2: at a law, now passed.

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Speaker 3: An amendment in act in act.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so everyone just stopped, right, that's how it works,

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Speaker 2: all right, what's part two going to be about that?

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Speaker 1: We're just going to see here quietly.

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Speaker 2: So this did not stop anything. Here's what happened. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three. The CIA had this one operation where

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Speaker 2: they went into the commercial shipping harbors of Nicaragua.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, I know it's it's pageous.

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Speaker 2: I said it right in my head all morning. Nicaragua.

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Speaker 2: And they put mines there. You know, I was about

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Speaker 2: to say land mines, but they were sea mines, yeah,

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Speaker 2: floating mines, right. And the idea here was we're going

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Speaker 2: to plant these mines that we're going to whip up

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Speaker 2: our own press releases for the Contras where they take

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Speaker 2: credit for it, like we don't even trust them to

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Speaker 2: write a good press release.

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Speaker 1: The CIA wrote the press release for.

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Speaker 3: It, so where the Contras are saying that they.

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Speaker 2: Did it, and the overall effect it's going to have

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Speaker 2: is they're not gonna be able to ship arms via

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Speaker 2: the seaport, at least into Nicaragua.

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Speaker 1: Plus it also makes the Contras look way more together,

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Speaker 1: sure and with it than they actually were.

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Speaker 2: Right, like, all we need to do is give them

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Speaker 2: some money, and they got it covered.

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Speaker 1: Right. So the CIA does this and they're thinking, okay,

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Speaker 1: so mine are shipping in the Nicaragua Harbor's is going

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Speaker 1: to stop. It does not stop. No, as a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, there there was damage. So they used little

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Speaker 1: firecracker mines which make a big blast in a lot

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Speaker 1: of water everywhere. But if it's a big ship, it's

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Speaker 1: not going to hurt the ship. Well, it's sunk a

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Speaker 1: lot of small fishing vessels. But it also damaged ships

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Speaker 1: from the Netherlands, Great Britain, Oops, Japan, and the USSR

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Speaker 1: commercial ships. So the Wall Street Journal broke this story

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Speaker 1: and said, hey, you guys, Congress, you remember how you

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Speaker 1: pass this amendment saying there could be no CIA involvement

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Speaker 1: in Nicaragua. Well, they mined the whole arbor of the

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Speaker 1: sovereign nation, and it blew up a bunch of other

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Speaker 1: other country ships.

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Speaker 2: In Congress once again, it's like, man, you keep doing

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Speaker 2: secret things behind our back. That really makes us mad.

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Speaker 2: Should we take a break.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's take a break.

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Speaker 4: Stuff you should know, Josh and shuck. Stuff you should know.

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Speaker 4: Stuff you should know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's keep going. So what does Congress do? They're like,

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Speaker 1: all right, they're mad. We passed one Bowlan amendment, which

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Speaker 1: I don't think we said chuck. That first Bowlin Amendment

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Speaker 1: was pasted four hundred and eleven to zero, unanimously saying

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Speaker 1: do not mess around in Nicaragua anymore. That's when you

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Speaker 1: know VERSU is mad, right, when they unanimously agree on something.

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Speaker 1: And then then the Wall Street Journal breaks the story

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Speaker 1: about the harbor mining long after the Bowling Amendment was passed.

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Speaker 1: And now Congress is even madder.

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Speaker 2: Right, So they passed two more amendments, Boland amendments, because

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Speaker 2: there were loopholes basically that allowed you know, the US

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Speaker 2: to sort of do these things semi legally. So it

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Speaker 2: was like, well, here's a loophole, so it wasn't really

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Speaker 2: fully illegal that we did this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like the Reagan administration's way.

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Speaker 3: All right.

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Speaker 2: They closed these loopholes and now this was like it

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Speaker 2: was pretty ironclad. I don't know about iron clad, but

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Speaker 2: it was pretty tight amendment wise.

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Speaker 1: At the very least. Congress walked away thinking it's done.

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Speaker 1: So we made ourselves quite clear, right, Ronald Reagan signed

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Speaker 1: these into law.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he didn't bete him.

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Speaker 1: No, he accepted these things. I think he even said like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a good idea, great way to go Congress

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Speaker 1: and signed it. I'm not going to do a Reagan impression.

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Speaker 1: But so Congress thought that the matter was settled, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't settled. Like this is how laser focused Reagan

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Speaker 1: was on overthrowing the Santainista government down in Nicaragua. He

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Speaker 1: just took a CIA operation and took it even further

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Speaker 1: underground than it had been before. Basically, he was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if you guys are going to outlaw this stuff, we're

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Speaker 1: just going to have to get even more illegal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So there were a couple of factions here at work.

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Speaker 2: One was this continued operation underground, deep deep underground now,

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Speaker 2: and then there was Reagan's public like he still wanted

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Speaker 2: to get real money from Congress, so he didn't have.

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Speaker 3: To do this stuff.

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Speaker 2: So he kept up this public PR campaign, beating this

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Speaker 2: drum about communism at our doorstep. He said that the

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Speaker 2: contrast were the moral equals of our founding fathers.

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Speaker 1: That's a big one to pull out, Like that's.

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Speaker 2: A direct quote, Yeah, of our found founding fathers. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and started in with the and again you see this

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Speaker 2: stuff kind of repeating itself, the campaign of fear, where

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Speaker 2: he basically said, unless we do something tough here, then

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Speaker 2: there will be a tidal wave of feet people.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what that means, but that's that

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Speaker 1: just seems super offensive.

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Speaker 2: Swarming into our country. He meant, you know, refugees, feat

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Speaker 2: people seeking a safe haven.

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Speaker 1: It was one word, even I think one word.

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Speaker 2: It's funny because I looked up feet People and that's

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Speaker 2: a company that, like, I think, makes shoelaces.

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Speaker 1: And they're like, yes, say it again, say dot com. Uh.

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Speaker 2: So this is all going on and on the on

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Speaker 2: the on the down low, all the operations are going

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Speaker 2: on and on the public facing side, Reagan's just continuing

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Speaker 2: this PR push.

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Speaker 1: Right basically saying, like Congress, look at these heartless old

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Speaker 1: you know, gas bags. Turning off the funding to these

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Speaker 1: Founding father moral equivalent to our Founding fathers. Go vote

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Speaker 1: these guys out of office and vote in some people

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Speaker 1: who will turn the funding back on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And while the Contras may have been fighting Communism,

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Speaker 2: they were doing so through means that the Founding Fathers

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Speaker 2: probably would not have approved of, like murder and torture

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Speaker 2: and rape and mutilation, kidnapping and not. You know, I

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Speaker 2: mean it wasn't so widespread that it was like that's

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Speaker 2: all they were doing, but they would resort to those tactics, right,

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Speaker 2: And that's not Founding father stuff.

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Speaker 1: No, it's definitely not, not as far as I've ever learned.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: And I mean it's had a few hundred couple hundred

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Speaker 1: years to come out, yeah, and it still hasn't. So Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I read some of the stuff too, Like some of

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Speaker 2: the affidavits were like just brutal.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, dude. The war down in Nicaragua, the civil war, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that the US basically fomented and supported. It went on

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Speaker 1: for a decade, like it was, it went on into

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Speaker 1: the nineties, and it was like not just like countrymen

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Speaker 1: against countrymen, like civilians were getting murdered by the scores. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just they would get kidnapp and tortured and killed,

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Speaker 1: and like, it was a really brutal time in Nicaragua.

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Speaker 1: And the Reggae administration is right in the middle of this,

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Speaker 1: like providing as much I eat as they can to

390
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Speaker 1: one side.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was.

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Speaker 2: One of the big problems was that the Contras back

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Speaker 2: then were a bunch of different factions and they did

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Speaker 2: an answer to a single leader. And the one thing

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Speaker 2: I got out of the affidavits, one of which this

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Speaker 2: woman described them taking her children and her finding their

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Speaker 2: mutilated bodies the next day.

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Speaker 3: It was brutal.

399
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Speaker 2: One of the leaders said that there's no disciplinary system

400
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Speaker 2: at all within the Contra groups, so oh yeah, yeah,

401
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 2: like there's no accountability, so you could do anything you

402
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Speaker 2: wanted and there's no discipline set up. So it was

403
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Speaker 2: just they were fractured and no one was talking to

404
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Speaker 2: each other and it was just a big mess.

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Speaker 1: Right. But Reagan was doing his best to paint everything

406
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Speaker 1: in black and white. Right, Contra's good Santinista is bad.

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Speaker 1: So anything that Contras did was good, and stuff that

408
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Speaker 1: couldn't be painted as good would just be denied or

409
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Speaker 1: glossed over, not reported on.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So, while while Reagan's out running around trying to drum

412
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Speaker 1: up public support for the Contras and thus congressional aid

413
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Speaker 1: being turned back on.

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Speaker 2: And also saying don't do drugs, he yeah, that was

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Speaker 2: a big one, even though we're shipping a lot of

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Speaker 2: drugs back and forth.

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Speaker 1: It's awfully rich now that you know all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's also secretly supporting them, going in flagrant

419
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Speaker 1: violation of what Congress has said that America can do.

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Speaker 1: He tells his people he wants the Contras movement to

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Speaker 1: be kept alive, body and soul is how we put it,

422
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Speaker 1: which and he basically said do it. This is what

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Speaker 1: history has told us, is that Reagan basically said keep

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Speaker 1: the Contra movement alive, body and soul. I'm going to

425
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Speaker 1: go work on Congress. I'm putting my hands over my

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Speaker 1: ears from now on. Whether that's true or not, we

427
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Speaker 1: will probably never know as far as the history books

428
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Speaker 1: is concerned. That's what happened.

429
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Speaker 3: Right, So here's what they did.

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Speaker 2: They said the CIA has a bad rap for a

431
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Speaker 2: lot of reasons, and Congress is not super friendly with them.

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Speaker 1: Well, they expressly forbade the CIA from operating.

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Speaker 3: There, right, So he said, here's what we're going to do.

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Speaker 2: We're going to use the National Security Council and they're

435
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Speaker 2: the CIA chief. William Casey he's around. He's going to

436
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Speaker 2: just like advise here and there. And William Casey was like,

437
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 2: oh no, I really got to be involved because this

438
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 2: is really good stuff.

439
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: They're like no, no, no, we're talking like officially, here's oh yeah,

440
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: okay exactly.

441
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: So at first National Security Advisors Robert McFarlane, and then

442
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 2: he was succeeded by John Poindexter, very important, you remember

443
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 2: that name. And then Casey's still there, like you said,

444
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 2: doing his thing on the down load unofficially, right.

445
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: I think even in some cases kind of stepping on

446
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: toes or whatever. He was like an additional boss to

447
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,360
Speaker 1: the main guy, the guy everybody's heard of, the guy

448
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: who's mine or whose name jumps to mine when you

449
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: hear about this, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North North. And in retrospect,

450
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: especially if you went if you lived through the Iran

451
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: Contra hearings and you were familiar with Olie North, like

452
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: you would guess that when Allie North was tapped to

453
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: head up this extraordinarily difficult secret operation to go against

454
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: Congress and keep the Contra movement alive and kicking that.

455
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: Alie North was a bad a covert operator to the

456
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: ninth degree. Right, that is not at all correct.

457
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 2: No career marine, very highly decorated marine, served in Vietnam one,

458
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: silver stars and purple hearts, devout Catholic, and by all accounts,

459
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: a stand up guy. And to many many Americans he

460
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: is still like a top notch American hero.

461
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 1: Sure well, he was like the president of NRA until

462
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: I think recently, Yeah, I think there's some scandal that

463
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: just happened where there. It came out that he like

464
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: tried to depose Wayne Lapierre or something like that.

465
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 3: I don't know.

466
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: I don't either. But even beyond that, like, even beyond

467
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: whether he's a stand up guy or not, as far

468
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: as you know, patriotism is concerned, sure, just job experience

469
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: he had, like none, Yeah, he had no experience whatsoever

470
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: as far as I could ever tell in covert operations.

471
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: He did a pretty good job for a while, it

472
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: did an amazing job.

473
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: He was basically the the White House's operations and intel

474
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: arm of the shadiest stuff it was doing stuff that

475
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: was so shady the CIA was even kept in the

476
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: dark about it. That's how shady this stuff Allie North

477
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: was doing. And he had no experience. He's learning as

478
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: he went, Yeah, just making it up as he went along.

479
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: And he really did do a pretty good job of

480
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: it if you look at it from that angle, just.

481
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: As far as like getting getting or done right. So

482
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 2: what they basically decided was, all right, if we can't

483
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 2: get the real taxpayer money and like official funds, we'll

484
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: just go and raise fund on the side and secret

485
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: through business people that you know, we can have these

486
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: big parties and dinners and say, hey, listen, communism is

487
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: knocking at a door. This wouldn't be good for America,

488
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: wouldn't be good for your company, right, and why don't

489
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: you give us some money?

490
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 3: Open up the checkbook. Reagan's here, you want a photo.

491
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sometimes he would show up to these secret fundraisers.

492
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: And it was it was it really worked.

493
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: Like they raised a ton of money from the business

494
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: elite of America to stop the sandin Eastans in Nicaragua.

495
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: So they actually forget this. They founded they had two

496
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: private citizens found in nonprofit the National Endowment for the

497
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: preservation of liberty. Its sole purpose was to get these

498
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: fund these illicit funds to send to the Contras, which

499
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: means that the people who are donating to the president's illegal,

500
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: secret proxy war could write their donations off on their taxes.

501
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 3: That's right.

502
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 1: It's just mind boggling hilarious in some senses.

503
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they were not the most stand up nonprofit because,

504
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: as you point out, they raised six point three million

505
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: dollars through that organization during eighty five eighty six, about

506
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: three point three million made it to the Contras. And

507
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: uh so that means a fifty two percent program expense rate.

508
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: That's pretty bad. Yeah, that's not good at all.

509
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: Now, three million dollars it took supposedly to run to

510
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: run that nonprofit.

511
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: Those fund raising breakfast for a year. Yeah, pretty bad.

512
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: Good omelets though, so yeah, oh yeah, the best not Yeah.

513
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: So from this this idea, like, okay, this is this

514
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: is probably kind of legal. We're just fundraising, right, We're

515
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: not giving any American taxpayer funds, We're just getting other

516
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: people that donate. Private citizens. Saudi Arabia was a big

517
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: one and it was all to stop communism.

518
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 2: So, like, I think their intentions were that, oh, definitely,

519
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: theirs were.

520
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there was this definite and justifies the means

521
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: kind of thing, And really, isn't the president really the

522
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: most powerful person in the world. Can Congress really tells

523
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 1: the president what to do as far as foreign policy goes? Nah? Yeah,

524
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: that was kind of the idea, I think. So Saudi

525
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: Arabia donated a bunch of money. There's all these private

526
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: citizens donating money. And here's the thing. The contrasts found

527
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: themselves for lush with cash.

528
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, many millions of dollars.

529
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: Over just two years. Saudi Arabia alone donated thirty two million.

530
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: To the contrast, this is a couple of loosely affiliated

531
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: factions fighting in two spots of Nicaragua that suddenly have

532
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: thirty plus million dollars at their disposal. The problem is

533
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: they don't have the contacts in the international arms trade

534
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 1: to buy arms with this money. They've had a bunch

535
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: of money, They're like, who wants this? And they were

536
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: getting crickets out, got some bombs, right, you know, the

537
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: cartoonish black kind, the round ones that are shiny. It

538
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: take fifteen of those.

539
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: This is before Craigslist two, right, So they're only their

540
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: only avenue was to go back to the Americans and

541
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: Oliver North and he began working with a guy named

542
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: Richard Seacord. He was a retired forest retired we'll get

543
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 2: into that in a minute, air Force major general, and

544
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: he had a lot of experience. There was this group

545
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 2: of dudes in the nineteen seventies and eighties that were

546
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: former CIA or current CIA, former CIA, former and current

547
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: American military who were all had their fingers in the

548
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: illegal arms trade.

549
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: Right, so exactly what you can imagine a Hollywood writer

550
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: would come up with, Yeah, this is the real life

551
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: version of yeah, for sure. So they would. They would.

552
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: You could farm out assassinations to them. They could rustle

553
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: up mercenaries, they could carry out sabotage operations. They could

554
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: find whatever, gun, bomb, anything you need.

555
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 3: On some money laundered gun, right, anything.

556
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: That is extraordinarily illegal and deals in death. Like these

557
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: guys could get their.

558
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 3: Hands on here, he's a poison done, Sure.

559
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: A bomb disguise as a briefcase. We got it, buddy. Yeah,

560
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: and they would. Here's the other thing too. They were

561
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: an illegal black market arms ring. But they were also

562
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: even more illegal and that they would sell to whoever,

563
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: whether you were an enemy or a friend of America,

564
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. These guys were operating well above any

565
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: sort of national loyalty or anything like that.

566
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was about making money, sure, like many millions

567
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: of dollars.

568
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right.

569
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: So, especially a guy like Seacord, he wasn't He was

570
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: in it to make dough, definitely, whereas an Ali North

571
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: was seemingly in it to stop the you know, communism.

572
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: Right, So that's an important point. But the fact that

573
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: they that they contract with Seacord to kind of swoop

574
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: in and help hook the contras up with arms means

575
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: that the Reagan administration is contracting with this extraordinarily illegal

576
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: black market arms ring.

577
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, which they took down some of these dudes over

578
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: the years, but one of them, one of the founders

579
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: of this group was a CIA op named Edwin Wilson.

580
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: He was sentenced He served twenty two years, twelve of

581
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: which were in solitary confinement, but was sentenced to fifty

582
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: two years for illegally arming Libya with ten thousand machine

583
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: guns and twenty tons of C four that he hid

584
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: in barrels of mud and flew on a chartered jet

585
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: to Libya.

586
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: Right, the Hollywood stuff, I know, it really is, like

587
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 1: this really happened.

588
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 3: It's crazy.

589
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just Libya. This guy was funding or

590
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: outfitting Momar Kadafi.

591
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

592
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: Edie Amine was another customer, Like, whoever, if you need

593
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: to keep a stranglehold on power in your country, were

594
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: the people to help you do that?

595
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

596
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: And when I teased earlier about Richard Seacord being forced

597
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: into retirement, that was due to his connection with Edwin Wilson. Right,

598
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: so he was forced to retire from the Air Force.

599
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: They couldn't pin anything on him, but there was enough

600
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: of a connection there where he had a step.

601
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. They're like, you can do this the hardware or

602
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: the easy way. We're going to give you the option.

603
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: And he took the easy way.

604
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: And then he went on to make a lot of money. Right.

605
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 1: He was like, okay, well, I'll just do the arm

606
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: stealing thing full time now, right, And he did so.

607
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: When they brought him in at first, Seacord was basically

608
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: acting as like a very lase Fair intermediary. He was

609
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: basically the guy who on behalf of Ali North was like, yeah,

610
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: I can introduce the contras to my friends in the

611
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: arms ring.

612
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: Yeah in Canada of all places.

613
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. He introduced the Contras to some Canadian arms dealers.

614
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: So now the setup was this the friendliest arm steeler. Right,

615
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: They're like, well, these bullets will really put a hole

616
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: in somebody.

617
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: Ah yeah, oh sorry, I meant to include rocket launchers

618
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: on that order.

619
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: Sorry.

620
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: Sorry, that's pretty good. So Seacord was just there to

621
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: make some introductions, make sure things went smoothly, and then

622
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: it was up to the Contras to use these funds

623
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: that were coming in from other people and to buy

624
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: weapons from the Canadians. Easyps, right, you'd think, okay, that's fine,

625
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: that's fine. It still has like a slight veneer of

626
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: arms length legality as far as America is concerned.

627
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should mention too that he to do this,

628
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: he set up a shell company, the Stanford Technology Trading Group,

629
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: with an Iranian American businessman named Albert Hakim, who knew

630
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: how to get around certain official procedures and stuff like that.

631
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: He's another guy who could get things done.

632
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: So he set up Swiss bank accounts, untraceable accounts, because

633
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: that's what you do to run the funds through. And

634
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: this became known as the Enterprise.

635
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's Stanford Technology Trading Company or.

636
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: Group Starting Group, aka the Enterprise.

637
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was like everybody called it that because they're

638
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: like this sounds way cooler, the enterprise, right.

639
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: All right, But like you were alluding to, you'd think

640
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: it would have been going great. But the contras in

641
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: the North, who was the FDN, They were the.

642
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: Largest, by far, the largest group.

643
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: They were better organized from what I understanding.

644
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were doing a pretty good job. But in

645
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: the South they were not doing a very good job.

646
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: No. Somehow they were like, we don't have the arms

647
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: and equipment. They're like, what are you talking about. You

648
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: have the same amount of money, you have the same contacts. Yeah,

649
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: just buy the weapons. They're like, oh no. So Allie

650
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: North is like, okay, all right, here's what we're gonna do.

651
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: He called the leaders of the FDN and the fsl

652
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: N to Miami to meet with them, and he said,

653
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: here's how it's going to be from now on. Any

654
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: veneer of legality is going out the window. From now on,

655
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: I'd like you to meet your new boss, Richard Secourt.

656
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: Not only is he going to make sure you have arms,

657
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: he's going to take the funnel money himself by the

658
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: arms himself, and then he's going to have it kicked

659
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: out of a plane over your camps. So now America

660
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: is directly involved in supporting and arming and training the

661
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: Contra rebels in the north and the south of Nicaragua.

662
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: And if there was any again, if there's any kind

663
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: of legality, it's totally gone at this point.

664
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in the meantime, Seacord and Achem were marking

665
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: up their stuff as much as like three hundred percent.

666
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: Dude, they ate a lot of money off of this.

667
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, they made a ton.

668
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: But they put it. They put a lot back into

669
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: the enterprise. I mean, they took this job very seriously.

670
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 3: That was a company.

671
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: If you are, if you were Allie North, you were

672
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: quite happy with the work you were getting from Richard

673
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: Seacord and Albert Hakim. Because the shipments went out on time,

674
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: they got everything they needed. They had so much money

675
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 1: they had it left over, but they were also investing

676
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: it into the enterprise. They bought planes, they rented air strips,

677
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: they hired employees, They contracted with other airlines like a

678
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: CIA Front I can't remember the name of it right now,

679
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: but they were doing the work for sure, great healthcare, yeah,

680
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 1: the best benefits. All of the contrace had really nice

681
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: teeth after Richard Seacord took over.

682
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: Work from home.

683
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: All right, so let's take another break here, then we'll

684
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 2: come back and bring it home for part one with

685
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: a little bit about the propaganda machine that was set up.

686
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 4: Stuff you should know, Josh, and shock. Stuff you should know,

687
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 4: stuff you should know.

688
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: All right, Chuck. So things are in full swing. America

689
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: is unknowingly totally hooking up the countries. I'm basically running

690
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: this proxy war that the contracts are fighting against the

691
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: Santa Nista government. The enterprise is working full bore. And

692
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: if it couldn't get any more illegal, if you thought

693
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: it couldn't get any more illegal, prepared to just be

694
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 1: knocked right over.

695
00:35:58,920 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

696
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 2: So here the home front, it was decided that there

697
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: needed to be a pretty massive, in dense propaganda campaign.

698
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: And it's we're not talking about Reagan just going on

699
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: the news talking about communism being at our doorstep. We're

700
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: talking about a real deal propaganda campaign. And they even

701
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: set up an office, the Office of Public Diplomacy for

702
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: Latin America and the Caribbean, that was founded and managed

703
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: by a Cuban American named Otto Reich, and this was

704
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: all exposed later on by the Miami Herald by the

705
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: reporting of a guy named Alfonso Chardie.

706
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to interject you real quick. So

707
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: do you remember when we've done, you know, historic stuff

708
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: in the past, and I'm like, go read the contemporary articles.

709
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: Was really good reporting going on because the story was

710
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: so huge and multifaceted.

711
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean Newsweek broke it before Congress knew,

712
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: the Washington Post broke it, and the Wall Street Journal, yeah,

713
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal, and then the Miami Herald at really

714
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: one fun like in Miami's backyard.

715
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: But it was back when it wasn't like, oh, think peace,

716
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: think peace, think piece, actual article, I think peace, think piece.

717
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: You know, it was like real recording. And even then

718
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 1: it's still it wasn't up to snuff in the end,

719
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: but there were actual journalists like actually paying attention and

720
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: writing about this stuff and informed the public about it.

721
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: And this is when you and I were kids, and

722
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: I think like maybe even the seeds of us because

723
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: we both kind of had desires to be real deal

724
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: journalists sure in our lives at one point.

725
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, what got us now?

726
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: Speaking of what a joke rip Mad magazine.

727
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, what a shame. Yeah, they tried that reboot

728
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: didn't work.

729
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough.

730
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 3: It is.

731
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: It's it's tough busy these days.

732
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I got friends that worked for him too,

733
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: like in this recent reiteration Oh really yeah, or iteration

734
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: I guess I know.

735
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: One of their illustrators is the stuff you should know

736
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: fan from yours back.

737
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's very sad to see it go.

738
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

739
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: So, uh, it was very eighties reference though it was.

740
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 3: It really wasn't up track. So all right, this is

741
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 3: going on.

742
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: They set up this office run by Otto Reich, and

743
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: this whole thing was designed and orchestrated by the CIA.

744
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: But here's the deal. The CIA wasn't supposed to be

745
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: doing this. They were barred from doing this.

746
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a long standing like prohibition on the

747
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: CIA from operating in the US. Basically, like we know

748
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: who you are and we know you're so good. You

749
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: can't use that stuff on us. You can only use

750
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: it overseas. It's fine if you go overthrow other countries.

751
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 3: On your mind tricks, Yeah, use those.

752
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: On other groups, but you can't use them here in

753
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: the States. And actually Reagan himself also had his own

754
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: executive order explicitly banning the CIA from, let's see, doing

755
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: any activity that was intended to influence United States political processes,

756
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: public opinion, or media. This is Reagan's executive Order twelve

757
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: three point thirty three. And he, at least his administration

758
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: was like, forget about that. We'll just get around that.

759
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And who was this?

760
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: It says here that they the CIA's biggest, foremost psychological

761
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 2: warfare expert retired from the agency officially and then was

762
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: hired as a consultant. I guess to this Office of

763
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: Public Diplomacy, was that Auto Reich?

764
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: Was that someone else?

765
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't know.

766
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 3: I don't well that's the whole point, right, yeah.

767
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: But that was how That's why I was saying earlier,

768
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: like Reagan, that's the Reagan administration way, just like here's

769
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 1: the letter of the law. Well let's change this letter

770
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: in our sentence, and now we're following the letter of

771
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: the law, right, you know. And that's what they did.

772
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: So the CIA's psychological warfare guy retired, came on as

773
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: a consultant. He said, oh, here's what you do. You

774
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: need to basically start setting up some sting operations, because

775
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: the point of this is to I can't remember who

776
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: said this, but to paint or to glue black hats

777
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: on the Santainistas and white hats on the Contras in

778
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: the public mine.

779
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: Right.

780
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: So when you say, uh, sting operations, we mean literally

781
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 2: the United States and Oliver North smuggling cocaine into Nicaragua,

782
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: photographing Sandinistan officials with this shipment, and then smuggling the

783
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: cocaine back to the United States, back to Florida.

784
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: Back to Florida, They're like, we told you, we bring

785
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: it back. Chill man, unbelievable, give us their driver's licenses. Bank.

786
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 3: So this photo is published.

787
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 2: This is during the middle of the Just Say No movement,

788
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 2: champion by Nancy Reagan. So it all, it all fit

789
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 2: on the surface, but what was going on behind the

790
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 2: scenes is just unconscionable.

791
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: It is unconscionable. Unconscionable both but so the but this

792
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: gave Reagan this photograph that got published all over the place.

793
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and he's like, look what's going on. Look

794
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: what these guys are doing. These are they're bringing this

795
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: stuff into America. They're killing our kids.

796
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: Exactly right, So these are the people that were fighting,

797
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: or the contras are fighting. How can you keep the

798
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 1: funding turned off for the contras? Congress jerks?

799
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 3: And that was the only evidence too.

800
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, the case somehow came out and said, by the way,

801
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody cares or not, but we

802
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: have no evidence whatsoever that this Santinistan official has ever

803
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: engaged in drug trafficking aside from this photograph. But this

804
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: was a follow up, probably weeks after the big splash

805
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: of the original photograph came out. So that was one

806
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: sting operation. Yeah, there's another one that involved Manuel Noriega,

807
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: the dictator of Panama, who actually was selling drugs to

808
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: America's youth.

809
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he was also a friend of the CIA.

810
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: Exactly, so much so that he was a CIA operator

811
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: for a very long time.

812
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't know about a friend, but he was

813
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 3: at least an asset, right. Yeah.

814
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: So this sting operation was they were going to through Panama,

815
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: have Panama arranged for a shipment of arms to be

816
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: seized in Honduras, El Salvador, El Salvador, Yeah, on its

817
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: way to Honduras or maybe just in El Salvador. Ostensibly

818
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: arms from Nicaragua.

819
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically saying you're arming Salvadorians, you're arming Hondurans.

820
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: You're exporting your revolution. This is exactly the kind of

821
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 1: thing that Ronald Reagan has been saying, we need to contain,

822
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: we need to pluck this sprout of communism out from Nicaragua. Yeah,

823
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: because they're trying to spread out of the region. Totally

824
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: made up, complete sting operation and it didn't even work

825
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: because Manuel Noriega was like, I didn't like that New

826
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: York Times piece you guys just published about me. I'm

827
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: going to keep this shipment of arms for myself.

828
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I love it. First he was like I

829
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 3: can do that. Oh yeah, sure, send me the arms. Yeah,

830
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: and then we were like, okay.

831
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: There would be I think it's from the Iran Contra investigation.

832
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: The description of Manuel Noriega was that he ran a

833
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: narco kleptocracy. That was the government that he ran.

834
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: He was about break down that word.

835
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: He was as shady as they come.

836
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 3: That just means drugs favory.

837
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

838
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

839
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: So this is what's going on in the United States

840
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: in the in the mid eighties. Yeah.

841
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 3: And here's the deal.

842
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 2: If you were a reporter at the time, right, and

843
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: you were reporting on this stuff. The NSC didn't like

844
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: that very much. So they would meet with editors and

845
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: reporters themselves, right and be like, hey, can you, like,

846
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: can you report on the Sandonisians that they're really not

847
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: good people? Like, can you help us out a little bit? Well,

848
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: but here's the thing. If you didn't play ball, then

849
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: didn't they cook up some story that they would that

850
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: they would send like Sandinistan sex workers there to the

851
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: like pleasure of the reporters.

852
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: That was the rumor was that if if you were

853
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: a journalist who reported favorably on the Sandinista government, the

854
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: reason you reported favorably on him was because the Santainista

855
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: government was furnishing you with sex workers.

856
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 3: Right.

857
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: That was that was directly from the Office of Public Diplomacy.

858
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: And I read the thing about it and they said

859
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 2: the guy was like, and we're not just talking women either.

860
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 2: If they were gay men, then they would we would

861
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: send gay sex workers.

862
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: So totally discredit them. It's like a complete page right

863
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: out of the Edward Burnet's playbook. It's orchestrated by the

864
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: CIA's foremost expert on psychological warfare and this was the

865
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: state of America in the mid eighties. But that was

866
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: just one dimension of this whole thing. And I say,

867
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: this is the end of part one. What do you think.

868
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: I think that's great, And we're going to make this

869
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: a cliff thing.

870
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 3: That's right.

871
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 2: And as per tradition, we are not going to do

872
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 2: a listener mail, but instead we'll do a call, which

873
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: we rarely do. A little just a little marketing call everyone.

874
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: If you like stuff, you should know. We've been doing

875
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 2: this so long. We're so bad at this, yet we've

876
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: managed to grow.

877
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 3: Anyway, it's crazy.

878
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 2: Tell a friend, share an episode with a friend right

879
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: now that they don't have to. You don't have to

880
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 2: explain what a podcast is, right, It's a lot cleaner now.

881
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 1: Maybe start with a good one like Ballpoint Pens or something.

882
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell a friend about the show, leave a night

883
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: review or just any kind of review at all on

884
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 2: iTunes that would help us out.

885
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's how classy Chuck and I are. He

886
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: even corrected himself from good review to just any review.

887
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: Whatever you want to leave. We're not going to try

888
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: to influence you. No, like the Reagan White House.

889
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 3: That's all right, so yeah, we'd really appreciate it.

890
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 2: Spread a little love, try and turn one person onto

891
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: our podcast this week, and that really helps us out.

892
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: Nice Chuck, how about that? That sounds like a good pyramid.

893
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: We like to do this once every five or six years.

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00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for joining us this week. If you

895
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: want to get in touch with us, you can go

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00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 1: on to stuff youshould Know dot com and check out

897
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: our social links. You can also send us an email

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00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

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00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

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00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.