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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Today we are diving into the

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Speaker 1: world of cults, and we know that we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of fellow conspiracy realists who have their own personal

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Speaker 1: experience with culture cultic organizations. But as we are wont

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Speaker 1: to do in this show, we went to some primary sources.

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Speaker 1: We are not diving into this alone. We are fortunate

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Speaker 1: to be joined today with Liz Ayakuzi and Tyler Meesom,

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Speaker 1: the creators of was I in a Cult, a podcast

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Speaker 1: that we're all big fans of in our personal lives. Tyler, Liz,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on the show today with us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having us guys. Thanks guys, we love

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Speaker 1: your show too. Well, that's good to know you didn't

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Speaker 1: open up with we hate your shows A good opener. Now, Tyler,

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Speaker 1: you are an award winning filmmaker. You have so many

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Speaker 1: titles under your belt. We were talking about some of

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Speaker 1: these off air things like Murder among the Mormons, an

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Speaker 1: Honest Liar. The list goes on. Uh, Liz, you are

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Speaker 1: a actor, You're a writer, you're a comedian, you're a

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Speaker 1: fitness trainer. You're also, as we were discussing off air,

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Speaker 1: you have done voice work for some of my colleague's

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Speaker 1: favorite video games. Matt, did I blow up your spot? No,

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Speaker 1: you're good. I like Commanding Conquer. Just don't worry about it.

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Speaker 1: It's cool. It was. It was the later stuff like

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Speaker 1: the much later Commander game, specifically Commanding Cocker four, Tiberian's Twilight,

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, And so we we want to

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Speaker 1: establish the backgrounds here because was I In a Cult

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Speaker 1: is a unique show in the world of podcasting, and

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Speaker 1: I would advance also that it is remarkably distinct in

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Speaker 1: the discourse about cults or cultic organizations overall. Uh, we

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Speaker 1: we know what the what the show is. We've listened

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Speaker 1: to episodes, we quite enjoy them. But perhaps you all could,

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Speaker 1: in your own words, tell us in our audience a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what is was I in a cult? Well,

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Speaker 1: the show it looks at the cultic experience from the

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Speaker 1: individual person active, which we often don't get enough of,

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Speaker 1: I believe in media and entertainment. Um, we will cover

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Speaker 1: the salaceous cult leader, which everybody is always obsessed with,

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Speaker 1: it seems to be obsessed with. But the show really

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Speaker 1: takes you on a journey of one person's personal story

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Speaker 1: getting manipulated into a cult, what their life was like

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Speaker 1: before that, what their life was like inside the cult,

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Speaker 1: and then more most importantly, how they got out and

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Speaker 1: how they rebuilt their lives. And it's a documentary style

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Speaker 1: in nature, and we use levity as much as possible

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Speaker 1: because tragedy and comedy I feel there and siters. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's like medicine, you know, it's easier to swallow

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Speaker 1: some of the darker stuff when you can bring some

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Speaker 1: lightness to it. Yeah. I can't imagine it just being

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Speaker 1: full on tragic, deep dive into the sadness and messed

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Speaker 1: up things that can occur at least when you get

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Speaker 1: into a cult like group or maybe a full on cult.

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Speaker 1: Who knows. That's a question for a little bit down here.

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Speaker 1: I mean we found we found that, you know, these

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Speaker 1: situations that these people find themselves in, and now that

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Speaker 1: they've left, they can actually look back with a bit

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Speaker 1: of levity and disbelief, and so we're able to kind

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Speaker 1: of mirror that in some ways, and never do we

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Speaker 1: poke fun or laugh at the individual, but oftentimes we

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Speaker 1: will look at the situation in which they were in,

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Speaker 1: or the situation which they found themselves in unfortunately, and

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Speaker 1: kind of just look at it with a bit of

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Speaker 1: a bit of levity and lightness, which I think is

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Speaker 1: better than forty five minutes of sadness and abuse and

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Speaker 1: brain manipulation. And I think the show is meant to

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Speaker 1: be inspirational and hopeful, and you don't really think about

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Speaker 1: that when you think of a cult show, you know,

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Speaker 1: because cults are like dooming gloom and like scary, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of times people approach

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Speaker 1: the cultic world from this sort of heuristic point of

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Speaker 1: view where you're like, look at all those crazy people

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Speaker 1: in there, and they're watching it from the safety of

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Speaker 1: you know, behind their their TVs or whatever they're watching

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Speaker 1: or listening to, and thinking, oh wow, I would never

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Speaker 1: be involved in something like that. But I'm fascinated. Our

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Speaker 1: show debonks a lot of the myths around cults and

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Speaker 1: what constitutes a cult, and I think it really human.

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Speaker 1: The goal is really to humanize the cult experience and

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Speaker 1: to show you, no, this isn't some dumb, lemming, vulnerable loser.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is you, This is your uncle, this

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Speaker 1: is your mom, this is your sister, To show you

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Speaker 1: how it happens, because there are over what Tyler, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's tens of thousands, ten cults active in America alone today,

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Speaker 1: and to expose not just the big cults that everybody

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Speaker 1: knows by name like Scientology or Nextium is a big

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Speaker 1: one right now because of everything it just went down,

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Speaker 1: but also to get into the smaller cults that people

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Speaker 1: don't realize are cults or um. There's one on one

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Speaker 1: cults even you know, there's family cults. There's small group

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Speaker 1: cults that don't get to to make it to mainstream media,

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Speaker 1: and our show dives into all all different types. Well

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Speaker 1: what's the thing to you? You say it? You know,

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Speaker 1: the show isn't doom and gloom um as you might

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Speaker 1: imagine a cult show would be. But there they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: work if they were all doom and gloom. There has

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Speaker 1: to be some attracting element that makes someone stoked about

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Speaker 1: joining in with this group of people, or they feel

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Speaker 1: some kinship, or they're looking for something, and it's not

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Speaker 1: always like broken, destitute or emotionally breast people. They get

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Speaker 1: taken in by these right. I think the common denominator

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Speaker 1: of people who joined cults, and some people are obviously

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Speaker 1: born into a cult. I think the common denominator of

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Speaker 1: people who joined cults it isn't that they're glassy eyed,

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Speaker 1: it isn't that they're broken. In fact, studies of shelling

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Speaker 1: that the people who joined cults aren't mentally unstable. Oddly enough,

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Speaker 1: it's quite the antithesis of that. People who joined cults

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Speaker 1: are by and large idealists. They want to make the

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Speaker 1: borld a better place. They want to make themselves a

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Speaker 1: better place. They want to get into heaven, they want

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Speaker 1: to fulfill their dreams. They want to for goodness, say,

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Speaker 1: they want to learn how to grow crops in a farm,

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Speaker 1: or they want to just be you know, have a

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Speaker 1: strong fitness level. And eventually they get taken in by

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Speaker 1: a a guru or a charismatic cult leader who takes

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Speaker 1: advantage of their idealism and their dreams. And that's the

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Speaker 1: sad part that people are being taken advantage of who

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Speaker 1: really just for the most part want to be good

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Speaker 1: and it comes from a noble place and immensely appreciate

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Speaker 1: that distinction. When we had spoken earlier, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that one of the things that was always a

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Speaker 1: question to me was what what is the inspiration for

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Speaker 1: are these two folks to create this show to bring

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Speaker 1: it into the world, because it always struck me as

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Speaker 1: just fundamentally different from, say, the more exploitative things you

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Speaker 1: might see candidly in in um like documentary or what

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Speaker 1: have you. There is, as you emphasized earlier, there is

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Speaker 1: this tremendous human moment, and your guests really travel with

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Speaker 1: you to some harrowing emotional spaces, to the point where

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Speaker 1: I'm sure many audience members who haven't heard this show

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Speaker 1: yet I have to ask themselves, do Liz and or

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Speaker 1: Tyler have experience with an organization that, if not a cult,

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Speaker 1: could be described as cultic? Sometime you ask everyone this question.

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Speaker 1: Is maybe it's time you ask yourself this question. Yes. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I was in a acting class when I

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Speaker 1: first moved to Los Angeles early twenties. Um was in

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Speaker 1: a toxic relationship living with this toxic man, and he I,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had done comedy in Chicago for years

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Speaker 1: and commercial work and voice over work for apparently what

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Speaker 1: did I do? Forgotten all about it? That's true. And

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Speaker 1: I had moved to l A and sort of was like, well,

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Speaker 1: what about you know, real acting outside of comedy. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if I should take an acting class with somebody

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Speaker 1: who's gonna like push me and you know, be real

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Speaker 1: with me and get me to my depth and all

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Speaker 1: of the things actors I think they want, right And

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Speaker 1: this my boyfriend at the time, was going to this

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Speaker 1: woman who, for I didn't really get it, but it

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Speaker 1: was like life coaching, and he was coming home every

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Speaker 1: night and being like, oh my god, this woman is amazing,

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Speaker 1: Like she's changing my life. It's so amazing. And she

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Speaker 1: also teaches this acting class. And he wasn't an actor.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I really think you should go. Like I

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Speaker 1: met a bunch of the people in the class. They're fantastic. Go.

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Speaker 1: So I ended up going to her acting class and

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Speaker 1: joining the acting class, meeting you know, people I didn't

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Speaker 1: know anybody in l A and met a bunch of

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Speaker 1: amazing people. Um, the talent in the room was fantastic,

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Speaker 1: the people were fantastic and stayed for a few years

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Speaker 1: and it turned into this self help cult. And then

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Speaker 1: when I realized there was a lot going on in

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Speaker 1: this group where it started off as classes and then

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Speaker 1: she would require you to take a life class to

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Speaker 1: be interacting class, and then retreats, and it just the

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Speaker 1: commitment continued in, the financial commitment continued in the emotional

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Speaker 1: and financial abuse just went crazy. And uh, and my

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Speaker 1: friend who was in it, we were just like, there's

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Speaker 1: something off with this environment. And you start to realize,

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Speaker 1: like all my friends were in this class. You start

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Speaker 1: to think like, oh, she's having us talk to strangers

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Speaker 1: at coffee shops about joining this class and the work

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Speaker 1: and there's now this vernacular used and the whole language

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Speaker 1: being explored, and you're starting to feel like you have

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Speaker 1: this secret that nobody else has. And anyway, she sent

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Speaker 1: me an article like towards the end, and it was

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Speaker 1: just like literally ten ways you know you're in a

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Speaker 1: cult from like some magazine and I just read it

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Speaker 1: and I was like check check check, check, check, check check,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, this is a

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Speaker 1: fucking cult. And then shortly after I got out of there,

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Speaker 1: UM did a bunch of research, you know, did some therapy.

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Speaker 1: Was like, what was that? You know, because I'm from Chicago,

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Speaker 1: I trust people. I trusted people. Uh l A makes

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Speaker 1: you a little harder, hardened, And I still trust people,

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Speaker 1: but I have a much better radar now. And so

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Speaker 1: that experience really opened my eyes to manipulation tactics which

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Speaker 1: I wasn't aware of. H I didn't know anything, to

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Speaker 1: be fair with you, about cults. You know, I was

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Speaker 1: just as naive as the person that thinks, oh Coults,

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Speaker 1: Jim Jones, Charlie Manson, you know, like these big scary

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Speaker 1: environments where you drink kool aid and voluntarily kill yourself.

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Speaker 1: And uh. In my research and getting out of that

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Speaker 1: that acting class, realized that cults are way more ubiquitous

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Speaker 1: than that, and they can they can live in acting

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Speaker 1: classes that you know, she's since stopped teaching acting. She

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Speaker 1: went on to become some healer. I mean, she's still

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Speaker 1: going by the way, guys, this is what I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you, was she was she just an individual

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Speaker 1: actor or was she using the same tactics that other

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Speaker 1: large groups that we know about us er was it

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Speaker 1: associated in any way. So she her dad was a

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Speaker 1: famous actor, so she she used that for her cred

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Speaker 1: a lot. And she studied with a man named Lloyd

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Speaker 1: Roy London who was I don't know if you know

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Speaker 1: the acting world at all, but he was a pretty

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Speaker 1: renowned acting coach for like Gina Davis and that era

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Speaker 1: of actors um and she studied with him for like

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Speaker 1: eleven years, and I think she tried to be an

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Speaker 1: actor herself. A lot of these cult leaders are failed blanks, right,

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Speaker 1: They do try to make it in the real world.

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Speaker 1: They you know, look at Charlie Manson, he wanted to

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Speaker 1: be musicians. I can't tell you how many leaders are musicians.

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Speaker 1: So many mel Lineman, the Yahwe Group, Charles Manson, so

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Speaker 1: many of them, the one who's in there's so many,

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Speaker 1: I can't go. But they want to become from a wild,

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Speaker 1: wild country as well. That's right, that's right. Cults form

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Speaker 1: a lot of bands because you can build group mine.

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Speaker 1: It's great way to sell albums trying to exactly you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not about thirty if you're not that good at it.

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Speaker 1: But most importly, this is a legacy Hollywood person basically

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Speaker 1: when it comes from money that is established in the industry,

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Speaker 1: that has that cred that you're seeking, and it's an easy,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of like way in for you, like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I can see this is legit. Um, my trust is

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Speaker 1: in you. And then it's almost like what do they say,

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Speaker 1: like a crab boiling. You know, you don't even notice

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Speaker 1: that you're boiling until it's almost too late, and thankfully

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Speaker 1: for you it wasn't too late. But that's sort of

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Speaker 1: how these things work, right. It's sort of a slow process.

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Speaker 1: You don't go in and day one realize oh wow.

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Speaker 1: It takes a little time and realization. But it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: you know, this was masquerading as an acting class. And

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Speaker 1: then eventually, you know, starting to kind of get a

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Speaker 1: little exactly right, Mr Brown. You know, we say it often,

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Speaker 1: no one joins a cult. No one is going to

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Speaker 1: sign up to join a cult. What they joined as

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Speaker 1: a movement or a church or fitness class, and over

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Speaker 1: slow indoctrination, planned indoctrination, they eventually find themselves some occult

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Speaker 1: and then it's really difficult to get out there into

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Speaker 1: deep and everyone they know and everything they know, and

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Speaker 1: everyone in the outside is ei either evil or not

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Speaker 1: up to your standards, and you find yourself stuck there.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean they're being locked in cages or anything.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they're being held against their will. They

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Speaker 1: have essentially become addicted to the cult experience right in

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Speaker 1: the beginning is the most dangerous because I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've ever been in an abusive relationship or if

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Speaker 1: any of your listeners can relate to that, but I

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Speaker 1: think we've all either we've been able to touch an

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Speaker 1: abusive relationship, whether it's our own or sister or somebody

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Speaker 1: we know. And the the sort of breakdown of how

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Speaker 1: that happens is very similar to the breakdown of how

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Speaker 1: you get into a cult. And the beginning is something

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Speaker 1: called love bombing, right, are you guys familiar with this?

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Speaker 1: So the love bombing is the most dangerous because that's

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Speaker 1: the fake part, that's the sweep you off your feet part. Right.

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Speaker 1: I met this amazing guy and he said he's never

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Speaker 1: imagined anybody but me, and oh my god, and you

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Speaker 1: feel this love bombing, but it's doubled down in cults

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Speaker 1: because it's not just the cult leader. That's love bombing you.

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Speaker 1: Usually it's maybe even not the cult leader, it's all

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Speaker 1: of the recruiters. It's all of the people in the environment, right,

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Speaker 1: aren't You probably could relate even if you go to

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Speaker 1: like a soul cycle class maybe right, or like on

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Speaker 1: a smaller level, or some sort of exercise class where

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Speaker 1: you walking in and then everybody's coming, Oh, you did

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Speaker 1: a great job. That was great, and you did seventeen

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Speaker 1: push ups and I only thought you could do thirteen

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is. It's you get attacked after and

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Speaker 1: you get praised for the work you've done, and that's

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Speaker 1: all the love bombing. That's all to like get you

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Speaker 1: feeling good and coming back tomorrow for the next class.

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Speaker 1: And I think, then that's that what you were talking about,

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Speaker 1: that indoctrination process, because that starts to fade, but slowly, right,

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Speaker 1: So you're getting love bombed, and then one day the

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Speaker 1: leader might say, yeah, but you were never going to

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Speaker 1: amount to anything, but you're so this, you're so great,

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Speaker 1: So then they neg you. So then they say something

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Speaker 1: that speaks to your innermost fears usually right, and the

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Speaker 1: way they get to those fears is in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: they make it. They create this very safe environment that

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Speaker 1: you feel safe to vulnerably share your fears because you're

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Speaker 1: watching the other people in the group do the same thing.

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Speaker 1: So you're like, oh, well, look at her. She shared

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Speaker 1: this vulnerable thing about her innermost fear, and now I'm

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Speaker 1: being asked to and I feel safe doing it. But

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Speaker 1: then they're using that against you later. The cult leader

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Speaker 1: is Beau's very very manipulative. And additionally, the next some

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Speaker 1: of the next steps would be things like the moving

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Speaker 1: goal post. You can do as much as you can,

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Speaker 1: but it's never quite enough. On this there's always another

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Speaker 1: rung of that ladder right right, right right. I love

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Speaker 1: to move the post to when it's doomsday. That's my

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Speaker 1: favorite goal post. Move. Oh, that's the best one. And

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Speaker 1: it's you, And it's your fault, followers, it's your fault.

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Speaker 1: The world did not end in eighteen forty three or

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six or two. Spoiler alert for any cult

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Speaker 1: members in the audience. It's gonna soldier along. But but

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Speaker 1: I love what you guys are pointing out about, how

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Speaker 1: uh you know you know? In our very early conversations

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Speaker 1: of full disclosure, folks, I am tremendously biased because I

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Speaker 1: did assist in some of the early days of this show. Um,

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Speaker 1: when one of our earlier conversations you both introduced me

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Speaker 1: to this term that we've we've used already on the

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Speaker 1: air today, cultic organization. Not necessarily a cult, right, because

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Speaker 1: like you were saying, Tyler, nobody would just wake up

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Speaker 1: one day and say, I'm gonna join a cult that's

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Speaker 1: my thing today. Uh, just like a lot of places

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Speaker 1: that are called cults by outsiders wouldn't describe them as

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Speaker 1: such ever, or wouldn't describe themselves as such. It's also

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Speaker 1: that interesting, like not every cultic organization you guys taught

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Speaker 1: me this is necessarily religious or even ostensibly spiritual in nature.

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Speaker 1: So we've defined some of the key to the key

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Speaker 1: aspects of what makes somebody vulnerable to this manipulation or

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Speaker 1: what kind of manipulation occurs in the course of indoctrination.

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Speaker 1: But what what would you all say are some of

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Speaker 1: the key defining traits of a cult or what we

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Speaker 1: would describe as a cultic organization, what makes them different

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Speaker 1: from an actual you know, movement. I mean that that

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Speaker 1: is the age old question. One man's called is another

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Speaker 1: man's church, right, um, and and and how does one

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Speaker 1: distinctly define a cult? And it is hard to actually

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Speaker 1: say this is a cult, and this isn't you know,

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Speaker 1: this is football, this is baseball. There's a separation between

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Speaker 1: the two. But cults can be a lot of things. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know. And some people think full on churches are culled.

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Speaker 1: Some people think CrossFit is a cult for gonnas. Some

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Speaker 1: people think, you know, an acting class, how does that

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Speaker 1: turn into a cult? So it's really difficult to define

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Speaker 1: what is a cult, But there are some uh tried

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Speaker 1: and true. Just just so you know, Liz and I,

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Speaker 1: there are some really great cult experts out there. We

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Speaker 1: know a bit about cults. We aren't you know, we

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Speaker 1: aren't the experts on this. We do host to show

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Speaker 1: about cults. But some of the things that are defining

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Speaker 1: mensures of a cult, I think is one, they try

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Speaker 1: to limit the access to the outside world. They don't

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Speaker 1: want you to listen to anything that's outside. They don't

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Speaker 1: want you to talk to people who are in the

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Speaker 1: outside world. And I think one of the most telling

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Speaker 1: things is when you leave said cult, they kind of

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Speaker 1: cut you off. They no longer want to be a

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Speaker 1: part of you, and I think that's one of the

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Speaker 1: defining features of a cult. Another defining feature is a

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Speaker 1: charismatic leader by in large one and one person who

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Speaker 1: is uh for the most party, charismatic individual who uh

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Speaker 1: you know, controls his or her flock and they pledge

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Speaker 1: allegiance to this particular individual. Now we have seen a

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Speaker 1: bit of a variance and cults of late, and it's

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Speaker 1: been very strange seeing the the the transfer of cults

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Speaker 1: and the rebirth of cults. Fact that there's new cults nowadays.

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Speaker 1: Where you know, ten fifteen years ago, if you want

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Speaker 1: to join a cult, you went to a commune, you

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Speaker 1: went to a church, you went to a meeting, you

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Speaker 1: went somewhere, and you got with a group of individuals socially,

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Speaker 1: and look, we're social animals. We like to be around

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Speaker 1: like minded individuals like us. But nowadays we've seen this

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Speaker 1: surge of if you will, internet cults, people who and

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Speaker 1: it was I think exacerbated by the pandemic, people who

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Speaker 1: find their similar you know, similar mentalities online. So there

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Speaker 1: are for example, like Q or Proud Boys or Patriot

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Speaker 1: Boys or whatever may be, these individuals who um join

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Speaker 1: this cult and don't necessarily have a leader. The leader

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Speaker 1: is in fact the ideology itself, which can take many

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Speaker 1: forms and can can alter all over the place. So

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Speaker 1: cults are they're tough to define. List. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you have your defining Well, just to add to

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Speaker 1: the I think the leader is important, right, Like, what

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Speaker 1: distinguishes a woman's group versus a cult that is a

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Speaker 1: woman's group is I would say the narcissistic, sociopathic, or

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Speaker 1: leader right, Um, But I think for the individual's experience,

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Speaker 1: you can't always detect that. So I thinks somebody experiencing

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Speaker 1: a cult going is there's weird when you start to

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Speaker 1: feel like your opinions are not valid, um, when you

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Speaker 1: start to feel like you can't speak out. Um, when

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Speaker 1: you see something weird and you speak to it and

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Speaker 1: you get reprimanded, when you find yourself falling in line

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Speaker 1: right with the yes man. Everybody's like like in my

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Speaker 1: cul to, there was stuff like she would call somebody out,

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Speaker 1: like do you see this person stuck in their head?

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Speaker 1: Right because they're trying to be an actor and be vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: And then she'd sort of humiliate an individual and then

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Speaker 1: everybody in the group would have to agree, Oh, I

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Speaker 1: see that right. So if you start to see this

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Speaker 1: everybody agreeing and falling in line. Also, when you start

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Speaker 1: to feel like you're losing your own critical thought, Now

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Speaker 1: that one's really hard because that's a really slow and

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Speaker 1: that's really a slow process of the indoctrination process. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But when you just feel like, Okay, I don't trust

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Speaker 1: myself anymore, and I'm my intuition isn't being heard. When

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Speaker 1: you start to feel like your intuition is being stuffed

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Speaker 1: down or being told as something else, you're probably in

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Speaker 1: some sort of manipulative, abusive, cultic type environment. Will pause

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Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsors and then return with

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Speaker 1: Liz I, Cuzi and Tyler Missum of was I in

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Speaker 1: a cult? And we're back with the host of was

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Speaker 1: I in a cult? For me? A picture in my

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Speaker 1: head from everything you've been talking about right there. Do

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Speaker 1: you guys think it's possible for a corporate structure and

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Speaker 1: a corporate culture like of a huge let's say a

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Speaker 1: massive company like I'm just gonna say like a Facebook

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Speaker 1: or an Apple where you've got these charismatic leaders that exist. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's not a one to one cult leader

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Speaker 1: for like a Steve jobs or you know, any of

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Speaker 1: these other guys necessarily, but there's some similarities that I'm

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Speaker 1: at least forming an image of in my head when

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Speaker 1: I think about being yes persons essentially to whatever these

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Speaker 1: charismatic leaders have to say and what orders they give.

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Speaker 1: So it is kind of just their role as a CEO,

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Speaker 1: right or whatever. Anyway, Okay, yeah, what do you think

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Speaker 1: I think the business world actually there are elements that

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Speaker 1: can be cultic. I think, you know, it's very similar.

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Speaker 1: There can be a leader or CEO. They're gonna be

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Speaker 1: a we want you to join this company. Then you're

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Speaker 1: kind of stuck in that job and you can't leave.

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Speaker 1: So I think we as humans, especially in America, are

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Speaker 1: kind of trained in some aspects for cultic behavior. It's

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Speaker 1: as simple as going to a store and being told that,

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Speaker 1: you know, that shirt looks really good on you, you

426
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: should buy it. Um, We're trained to obey, we listen.

427
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: We're supposed to follow rules, and we're supposed to listen

428
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: to our boss, and we're supposed to listen to our

429
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: elders and our parents and our superiors, and so in

430
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: many ways we're kind of set up for being in

431
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: a cultic situation, And yeah, I think businesses can take

432
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: advantage of an individual in some ways. I mean, again

433
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: a business a person who can join a company and

434
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: want to rise the ranks and be good and make money,

435
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 1: and a charismatic leader or a narcissist as be him,

436
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: a CEO or guru can take advantage of that and

437
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: manipulate that and actually use that person's intentions and idealism

438
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: against them to the point where it's just to feed

439
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: them and feed their ego. Well, I mean so much

440
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: of leadership and like the mentality behind leading a big

441
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: organization like that as too. It doesn't matter if what

442
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: you say is the truth. In fact, it's better if

443
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: you control the narrative by just repeating the same lie

444
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: over and over and over again to the point where

445
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: people believe it and actually believe it internally, not not

446
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: just as like a coping mechanism or a way of

447
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: just like getting by day to day. Um. I think

448
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: that's true on many layers of business, but specifically with

449
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: leadership within a specific organization, especially if you know there's

450
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: really bad behavior going on in terms of like you know,

451
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: maybe some um illegal business practices or you know, things

452
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: like with bear Stearns, and we see with you know,

453
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: the collapse of certain Wall Street companies Wall Street organizations.

454
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: But I think we see that even just within you know,

455
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: a day to day like within it working for a company,

456
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 1: you oftentimes have people using flattery to tell you what

457
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: you're doing is great all the time, even if you

458
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: know personally that might not have been your best war.

459
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: And someone's telling you over and over again that it is,

460
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: you start to kind of believe in yourself in this

461
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: almost toxic way. I just think it's interesting flattery and fear,

462
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: which is another strong tactic of occult leader. You know,

463
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: the cold leader is going to show up, and you

464
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 1: don't know if they're gonna love you or hate you,

465
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: if they're gonna scorn you or kiss you, and so

466
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: you're always kind of on edge. And I think bosses

467
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: can do that as well. I do think, you know,

468
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: and we've heard a lot about this, the great resignation,

469
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: people leaving jobs and not taking normal corporate jobs anymore.

470
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: And I think it's kind of nice. And I think

471
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who are leaving religions

472
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: and recognizing I don't need to be told what to do,

473
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: and so there might be a kind of awakening against

474
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: those individuals who want to control us and use fear

475
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: and flattery to keep us in our place. And I

476
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: think it's mad. I think it just is how much

477
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: that leader knows how damaged they are, honestly, because I would.

478
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say ninety nine percent of

479
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: cult leaders are are very damaged, and a lot of

480
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: them have a lot of ironically weird sexual traumas as children.

481
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: So there's they're they're they're already coming from a mentally

482
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: ill point standpoint. They're not they want to be cult

483
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: leaders if they if they were healthy, right, So if

484
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: you have that charismatic uh CEO who is also quite

485
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: damaged and looking to fulfill blank, then that can go

486
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: into dangerous territory. I mean, I would call Jeffrey Epstein

487
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: a cult leader. That's a full cult I'd call r.

488
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: Kelly a full cult leader. So I just think it varies.

489
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: And I bet we could break down a lot and

490
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: that of corporations and figure out the cult within them.

491
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing that also stands out here

492
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: in this conversation is that it's very easy for somebody

493
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: with the benefit of being outside of a personal experience

494
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: to think I'd never I'd never fall for that, or

495
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: I'd never find myself in that situation. Um. But there

496
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: was something I was thinking about in preparation for our

497
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: conversation today, which is that is there not kind of

498
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: a cult out there for everyone? It depends on where

499
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: you are in life. It depends on what what the

500
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: nature of your idealism may be and how it could

501
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: be leveraged, perhaps against you. I think that when you're

502
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: naming specific examples of cult like organizations, it's not just

503
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: corporate America, It's it's any community endeavor could be twisted

504
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: by somebody who wants to impose cultic behaviors on well,

505
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: let's say people, people who are innocent, you know, if

506
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: if any sin, any sin they committed, if sin there

507
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: was was simply the quote unquote sin of trusting someone,

508
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: especially at the beginning there, Um, how do you parse this?

509
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: Do you see commonalities when you're when you're speaking with

510
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: the folks that you all are interviewing, Do they do

511
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: they seem to have stories with almost the same beats

512
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: or is each one in its own unique case? Yeah? Again,

513
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: for in our show, we you know, we we talked

514
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: to one individual, and we interview them for hours and

515
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: we you know, we can press that down and added

516
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: it down to a nice sizeable listenable you know, our show.

517
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: And they go through the entire story of their their childhood,

518
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: they're joining the church or religion or cult and um,

519
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: and then you know their life within the cult. And

520
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: I do think there is there are a number of

521
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: similar similarities, and they are idealists. A lot of times

522
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 1: when people join cults, there's a transition phase. They just

523
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: went through a difficult breakup, they just moved, they're poor,

524
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: they you know, they need something. Oddly enough, it's not

525
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: just poor people. In fact, cults don't want everyone thinks

526
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: cult wants sheep and followers and workers, and they do,

527
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: but by and large, cults want cult leaders want uh

528
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: type A personalities. They want smart, hard working go getters.

529
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: Because for the most part, cult leaders are fucking lazy.

530
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: They just don't want to do anything, so they have

531
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: other people do it for them. And and rich people

532
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,719
Speaker 1: are actually very prone to joining cults, especially those who

533
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: were inherited money, because they don't feel like they deserve

534
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: this kind of money, so they have to give it

535
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: to a good entity. And you know, a nice endeavor.

536
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: So really it's it's kind of hard. The people we've interviewed,

537
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: by and large are creative, they're they're smart, they're go getters,

538
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 1: they're they're interesting, unique individuals who really just wanted to

539
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: make the world a bit of a better place and

540
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: got taken advantage of. But what's also interesting is outside

541
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: of all that, the way they get in is very subtle,

542
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: and it's usually a friend, a friend saying, Hey, there's

543
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: this really cool book club I'm in, or this presentation

544
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: or this class I've been taking. You should come. I

545
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: think you'd really like it. It's that little like and

546
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: and think about your own group of friends, right you

547
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: You all sort of gravitate towards the same things you have,

548
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: things you're interested in. It's why you're friends in the

549
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: first place. Um, because you have commonalities and that's comforting

550
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: and that feels good. And that's what's been most interesting

551
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: to me, is like it's a family member or a

552
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: friend doing the recruiting. And that's why cults are so dangerous,

553
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: I think, because you trust your friends and you trust

554
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: your family members, and you you would never think this

555
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: person would set me off in this dangerous environment and

556
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: most of the times the recruiter doesn't know that they're

557
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: doing at at the time. Well, I want to talk

558
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: about Well, there's so many topics you've covered. I'm looking

559
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: through this things that we've talked about recently on this show,

560
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: like Jehovah's Witnesses. Um, we talked about Nextium at length.

561
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: I'd see here that you you interviewed someone named Jessica

562
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: Joan about Nexium. I'd love to go into that, just

563
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: maybe get some of the perspective that she brought to

564
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: that same conversation, like how she got in, uh, maybe

565
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: how she got out, Just some some things you learned

566
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: from her about Nexium. She she was a remarkable story

567
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: and a remarkable storyteller, and she's a remarkable human quite bad. Yeah,

568
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: she's a badass. And she had a very interesting and

569
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: unique childhood. And I think there is in some aspects

570
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: of commonality among people who join. They may have mother

571
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: issues or father issues, or didn't get attention or love.

572
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: I I'm generalizing or I'm not, but there is there

573
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: There can be that she had a unique childhood and

574
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: that her you know her her mother was arrested and

575
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 1: her father ran a major drug smuggling organization, making and

576
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: selling and transporting drugs across the country. So she had

577
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: a very unique childhood and she just wanted to search

578
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: for something. She was looking for something. She got into

579
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 1: the party world, uh in l A. And she realized

580
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 1: that didn't feel good, and I need to work on myself.

581
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: So coincidentally, someone said, hey, you should come to this

582
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: little workshop. It's a self help group. And she goes

583
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: to a nice little self help group and they make

584
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: her feel good and they tell her they can they

585
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 1: have the keys to the kingdom and they can make

586
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: her world better. And then recruiters jump on her and say,

587
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: you have to sign up today, sign up for this class.

588
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: Sign up today, and if you sign up today, you

589
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: get a discount. And we have to look for that

590
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: in this world, folks, sign up today, get it now.

591
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: If you get it now, you get off, you get off.

592
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: You know. In hindsight, she even said, go home, think

593
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: about it. If you're going to make a major decision

594
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: of financial or personal, do some research. And for going

595
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: to say, research is not difficult to do in in

596
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: today's world. It's on your phone and your hand. But

597
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: she signed up. She basically signed up and the class

598
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: and signed up for the class. And then what was

599
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: interesting about her story too, is that she got a

600
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: lot out of these classes. In the beginning, I mean,

601
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: her life was getting better. She was she felt like

602
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: she was progressing and thriving, and it was giving her

603
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: things that she had never been able to get, especially

604
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: in regular therapy. This was like a deeper experience of

605
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: that for her, and she felt good um for a

606
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: long time. And then she was silent, slowly being indoctrinated

607
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: by Alison Mack, who, as we know, because you guys

608
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 1: know Nexium, was the right hand of Keith and who

609
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: was running the vow. And that's how she got into

610
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: the vow. But you'll have to hear the episode to

611
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: hear what happened. We don't want to go too deep,

612
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: but she did get into the club and the inner

613
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: sanctum of this. And I mean, Keith Raniery is a

614
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: piece of work. I don't think he I think he's

615
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: the most dangerous cult leader in existence. Possibly I think

616
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: he's one of the most. I don't know a more

617
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: dangerous cult leader than him, to be honest. But she

618
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: did work with the FBI to help take down that pastor,

619
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: so it's a good episode. It's a great story, and

620
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: she's she's able to tell it with a lot of levity,

621
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: and she's um. You just feel how strong and empowered

622
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: she is from the experience, and that that's what I

623
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: think is really important too, to show that these people

624
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: aren't just broken. You know, they're actually thriving and better

625
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 1: off a lot of the time from from doing the

626
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: healing and learning. And you know, just like any traumatic

627
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: experience anybody experiences or goes through. And we'll take a

628
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: quick break, here, will be right back and we've returned.

629
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: We hear so much about these you know, kind of

630
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: pyramid scheme situations or where it's all about building people

631
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: out of money and that's the end game. Have you

632
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: run across anything you might describe as like a benevolent

633
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: cult that really just thrives on people's attention. Isn't always

634
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 1: trying to get money out of them? Or maybe there

635
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily an entirely toxic end game, Like maybe there

636
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: is a cult that works for people. Like what differentiates

637
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: like a movement or like a self help regiment from

638
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: a cult. Is it always that in the end there's

639
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: some toxic knife twist or rug pole or you know

640
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: something else. I think that that is your definition, right.

641
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: There are a lot of good groups that are thriving

642
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: doing exactly what they set out to do, and their

643
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: intentions are pure. I think the reason it's called a

644
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: cult is because of all those other factors. So sadly,

645
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: I don't think you're ever going to find a well

646
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: intentioned cult. You might fellow find a well in contention

647
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: self help group, or a well intentioned church, or a

648
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: well intentioned blank but when it gets into the cult word,

649
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: that's I think, much like individuals, no one joins a cult.

650
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: I think I can't say that. No leader says I'm

651
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: going to start a cult. But I think in many

652
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: ways people say they want to start a church, or

653
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: I do want to start a self help group because

654
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: I do think I have knowledge that I can impart

655
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: to individuals. Um I mean the Jim Jones Church, which

656
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: eventually ended not so well. That was in the sixties

657
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, a great church that was a SegReg

658
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: non segregated religion that actually did do really great things

659
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: for the community and for individuals, and then it just

660
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: went a little too far. So I think narcissistic cult leaders,

661
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: you know, starting to believe themselves, and they start to

662
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: get a little bit to uh to engrossed in what

663
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: they're doing, and then they they too locked themselves off

664
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: from the community, and they too locked themselves off for

665
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: many outside sources or outside voices. Then they begin to

666
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: believe their own magic. Certainly where the phrase drinking the

667
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: kool aid came from, right, technically, but I think it's

668
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: it's a very valuable turn of phrase. I think everyone

669
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: understands what it means. I mean, I'm I'm a strong

670
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: believer in therapy. I think it's important to try and

671
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: better yourself. I think it's important to try and learn

672
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: something new, or to chase your dreams, to join an

673
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: acting class, to join a fitness group, to join something

674
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: that makes you better. Just a make sure that it's licensed.

675
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: There are those that think therapy is a cult, though,

676
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: there are those that think, you know, organized psychotherapy. I mean,

677
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: obviously that was a big part of scientology, was backlash

678
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: against therapy. But I mean, you will this is a

679
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: silly example, but if you watch the show Ted Lasso,

680
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 1: he is very anti therapy for a while, and there

681
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: are people like that, then you can say, oh, No,

682
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: these are people that are just in it for the money. Um,

683
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: they're overcharging, it's absurd, and they're really not doing anything

684
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: for me, but like big upping their own egos and

685
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm being Devil's advocated to say. It is

686
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: a tricky area where one person's cult is another person's

687
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: self help or self actualization. And there are cultic therapists also,

688
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: so that stitch is tricky. I think, you know, like

689
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: Nexian for example, they actually prided themselves and Keith Rnery

690
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: prided himself on not being therapists. We don't do what

691
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: therapists do. But the fact of the matter is is

692
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: therapists are license, they're good at what they do, and

693
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: they train for that. So, I mean, look, one thing

694
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: we wanted to do with the show is to make

695
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: people aware that cults are prevalent. In fact, I think

696
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: they're more prevalent today than ever. Um, and they can

697
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: get you. And everyone says I wouldn't join a cult.

698
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't join a cult. I but it can happen.

699
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: Society has enabled it and and cults are very good

700
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: at getting you in. They're very good at making sure

701
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: that you joined and that you don't leave, Yeah, right,

702
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 1: Hotel California, and so on. I believe is a reference

703
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: that there's there's something I wanted to I wanted to

704
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: bring us to at some point our conversation that has

705
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: particularly impressed me. And it's something you've hit on a

706
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: couple of times already, which is I I was profoundly

707
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: impressed by not just the amount of levity that you

708
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: will all bring to these challenging and at times honestly

709
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 1: heartbreaking conversations, but there's something that always tickled me, which

710
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: is that that Liz, you and Tyler have this pretty

711
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: delightful habit of ribbing each other at times, even when

712
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: you're even when you're doing you know, just like intersted

713
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: interstitial voiceover. And it leads to a conversation that some

714
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: of us were having a number of months ago, which

715
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: is simply put this, how do you navigate humor in

716
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: a show like yours? How do you use humor and

717
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 1: laughter in a helpful rather than derogatory or mocking manner?

718
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: And and and to what degree did you calculate that versus? Uh?

719
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: Did it come out organically? Um? I think Tyler and

720
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: I have a similar sense of humor, which uh, came

721
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: about organically when we started working on this project. I

722
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: as a writer. I'm a comedy writer, and I I

723
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: like to take dark subjects and bring humor to them.

724
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: It's sort of where I go instinct. Really, I've always

725
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: believed that, you know, it's a it's a way to

726
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: digest the harder information. It's why late night TV, you know, exists.

727
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: That's why they do the monologues and they're talking about

728
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 1: the news and maybe like we were there was Kuwait

729
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: was bombed. But he's adding a joke to it so

730
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 1: that you can swallow it and don't want to kill yourself, right. Um.

731
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: John Oliver does it really well in his show, you know,

732
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: he's it's he takes really really dark, intense subject matters

733
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: and it's comedy. Um. I've always been drawn to that

734
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: kind of way to digest information personally, especially really intense information. Um.

735
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: And I think it. I think the feedback, especially from

736
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: the guests themselves, have been the most satisfying. They are

737
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: so grateful to to be part of a show that

738
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: isn't so like got you poor people, and you know,

739
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: we're just we're it's just us in a room talking

740
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: about yeah, some hard stuff. Happens, But that doesn't mean

741
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: it has to define you. It doesn't mean that you

742
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: have to live in that trauma anymore. You know, the

743
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: people were talking to are are healthy, They've come out

744
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: the other side, and they're healed. And hopefully that is

745
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 1: showing that people don't People can heal from trauma and

746
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: laugh about it and have fun and still enjoy life.

747
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: I think to actually just to continue to live in

748
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: the sadness of what has ever happened to you is

749
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: not the show that Tyler and I wanted to make.

750
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: So how do we do it? I don't know. How

751
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 1: do we do it? I don't know. We're still figuring

752
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: it out. But um, I think just from also just

753
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: a storytelling sense. Um. In my films, I learned very

754
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: early my first film with Sons of Perdition, and it

755
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: was about kids who are kicked out of a polygamist cult.

756
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: Sixteen year old fifteen year old boys who were you know,

757
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: in a in a in a Mormon polygamoust cold and

758
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: then one day they're just to into the curb and

759
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: they don't have mommies, and they don't have daddies, and

760
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: they don't know anything about the outside world, and We

761
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: showed an early cut of it to these filmmakers, and

762
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: the best piece of advice I've been given at that

763
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: time that's really moved my career is um have a

764
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: funny scene, show a bit of happiness, because it's so

765
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: sad that it's hard to swallow. But also the sad

766
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: makes the happy happier, and the happy makes the sad sadder.

767
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: And in many of my films Murder among the Morments,

768
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: for example, we have a scene that is a laugh

769
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: out loud, silly scene of if you haven't seen that

770
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: guy shooting guns and you know, driving around in the

771
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: desert and just being you know, dipshits. But and that's fun,

772
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: and it may feel a little bit out of place.

773
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: But later when there's actual violence with the I don't

774
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: want to give it away, but when there's actual violence,

775
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: um with those kind of weapons, it shows the heaviness

776
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: of it, the weight of it, because you've seen the

777
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: other side of it, you can now see the despair

778
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: of it on one end. So I think it's important

779
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: to storytelling to kind of show the balance between happy

780
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: and sad. Yeah, I think with our guests too, were

781
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: very cognizant that this is trauma. And the one thing

782
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: Tyler and I have said from the beginning is we

783
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: are not here to re traumatize anybody. That's not what

784
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: this show is about. And if if they're too raw,

785
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: too freshly out of the cult, unfortunately they can't be

786
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: on our show because we just don't want to re

787
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: traumatize people. But we we we take our cues from

788
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: our guests, and I mean most of our guests are

789
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 1: laughing a lot through it. I mean, then there are

790
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: the moments of we we hit on that core experience

791
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: and then we give it the breath you know that

792
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: deserves when it's serious and it's sad. Uh. Then we

793
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: let that that live in its space and give it

794
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: its give it its space. But then we might make

795
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: a joke to bring you back to you know, it's

796
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: like a palate cleanser, and you can take a breath

797
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: after hearing about some deeply sad sexual experience. It's hard

798
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: to you know, frankly hard to hear. It kind of

799
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: reminds me of like the time that I've probably been

800
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: the most star struck on this show in the history

801
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: of being on this show is when we talked to

802
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 1: Mike Render from the Church of Scientology, and that guy

803
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: is hilarious, Like he is just absolutely self aware. He

804
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 1: knows what he was, he knows what he is. Um

805
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: he is open as you could possibly imagine about, like

806
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: I mean to the point where we had to like

807
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: vet it with legal to make sure we don't need

808
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: to get in trouble because he would just you know,

809
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: tell all. But he had that same levity just around

810
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, he's talking about some really traumatic things and

811
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: obviously would get serious, but he had that uh, that

812
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 1: hindsight and that ability to kind of like that you're

813
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: describing what's someone that's truly disconnected, you know, from from

814
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: that cult. And it was just such a remarkable conversation.

815
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: And it really does to me describe what you're describing

816
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 1: in someone that can truly take a step back, um

817
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: and laugh at themselves a little bit. We have an episode.

818
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: It's a two parter. It's about a woman named Joe

819
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: Anne and she joined this really strange, weird polygamous cult

820
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: down in the central Utah and the things that she

821
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: talks about and the funny things they did, it is

822
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: hilarious her life and what she did. And she looks

823
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: back at it like I can't believe the incredulousness of

824
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: me doing a seance, you know, in me burning my

825
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: underwear and marrying you know, having to making roast beef

826
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: for Jesus, is coming coming back that night and having

827
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: to you know, be in a barn and Okay, the

828
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: marriage of her husband to another woman like it just

829
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: it's ripe for for comedy. So and with her she

830
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: wrote a book called It's Not about the Sex, My Ass.

831
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: So she already wrote a very funny book, uh and

832
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: told her story with a lot of levity. So we

833
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: had a just as much fun with that episode because

834
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: she allowed she allowed it. And that's I love what

835
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: you're pointing out about the sharp relief that we see.

836
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: We see these situations put in, you know, the humor

837
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: and the heavy uh coexist and complement one another, and

838
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: I think it makes the experiences of these people more real.

839
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: Two for for folks who are outsiders who are hearing this,

840
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: because now it's not some victim on some true crime show.

841
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 1: It's someone who is just as human as anybody else

842
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: you would meet at the grocery store. And when when

843
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: we're talking about this, we're talking about human moments. Um,

844
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: we can only unfortunately, assume that some of the people

845
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: in the audience today have a loved one who is

846
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: in a cultic organization, especially since, as you pointed out, Tyler,

847
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: the pandemic has done a lot for Q and on.

848
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: That's just one example. Um. We also may have some

849
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: folks who are starting to have second feelings about an

850
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: organization they joined that they were quite excited about. So

851
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: with that, I think one of the most important questions

852
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: we have to ask is for everyone listening today, do

853
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: you all have any any just quick and dirty tips

854
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: the dues and don't for people who are concerned that

855
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: someone close to them maybe falling prey to these predatory organizations.

856
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,959
Speaker 1: And you know what, how do you engage with these folks?

857
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: How do you how do you talk to them or

858
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: voice your concerns without alienating them? You know. One of

859
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: our our next episode that we will launch is with

860
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: a cult expert, Yanya Um and she goes over you know,

861
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: she's it's not She also was an occult in the sixties,

862
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: very radicalized democratic cult um. But she also has become

863
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: an expert and she talks about and the seventies. She

864
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: talks about how people join and also why they stay

865
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: and how why we shouldn't scorn p well who who

866
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: were in occult? But she says, in order to if

867
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: your family members in it, like if if they're falling prey,

868
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: then I think that's one thing. But if they're in it, unfortunately,

869
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: there's not much you can say. You just got to

870
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 1: keep loving them and and talking to them about other things,

871
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: reminding them of the life they had before this environment.

872
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,760
Speaker 1: And I will say, I don't know from my personal experience,

873
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: and just people have spoken to you can plan a seed. Right.

874
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: You might say something to your uncle who is in

875
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: one of these groups, and he may never talk to

876
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: you for five years, but when he finally gets out,

877
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 1: he might say to you, you know what, you said

878
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: this thing to me five years ago, and at this

879
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 1: point you don't even remember what he's talking about because

880
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: it was five years ago. But you planted that right exactly.

881
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: But you planted that seed and it sticks with them.

882
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: So I'd say, plan a seed if you can. Um,

883
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: it might take years for this family member to actually

884
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 1: see the light. And unfortunately there's not much you can

885
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: do but say your piece and um and hope for

886
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: the best. Yeah, maybe I think it's the same thing

887
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: with you know, if you had a sudden daughter, child, mother, whatever,

888
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: sister who was you know, a drug addict. You can't

889
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: force them out of anything. You can't tell them what

890
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: they're doing is wrong, because that may actually push them

891
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: further away. I would say, consult a book, consult a therapist, consultant,

892
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: expert of the best way I can get my loved

893
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 1: one out of said environment. And there's also just there's

894
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: also just groups where you can go to just talk

895
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: about it, and there's support groups for people that have

896
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: family members and cults. I mean, it's just feel like

897
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: there's a divisive like political climate right now. Even someone

898
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 1: who isn't full queuing on might still feel very aggressively

899
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 1: um combative or feel like they need to or deserve

900
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: to be heard in that way, uh and just won't

901
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: back down. So the idea of changing the subject doesn't

902
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: really work. You know, at family dinners, if you have

903
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: that uncle that is just just just coming at you

904
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: knowing you know what your buttons are, you know, or

905
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: what your boundaries are, and then completely trampling all over them.

906
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 1: So it almost feels like with some people, you gotta

907
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: cut people off if they won't respect you. Know your

908
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: boundaries are, like where you're willing to go in conversation,

909
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: because there's some people you just can't. You know, there's

910
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: a line on the sand, and if you're going to

911
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: cross that line, you're just gonna be in a fight. So,

912
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: I mean, do you have any thoughts around that, like

913
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: with the holidays coming up, and it's a tough one.

914
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm obviously speaking from a little bit

915
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: of personal experience. It's tough. It's tough, right, you know.

916
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: I think we have we have a divisiveness in this country,

917
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 1: and like we have seen and Yeah, talks about that,

918
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: she's never seen this kind of divisiveness before, and in

919
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: some ways it just becomes easier. Like my shitty advice is,

920
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 1: I just don't go to Thanksgiving family. If you to

921
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving Giving with your family, And that's terrible advice because

922
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: I think if someone does join a cult, they need

923
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: to be alerted of that. Look, I was raised as

924
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: a Mormon, and I've left the church and my family

925
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: is all Mormon, and I don't believe what they're doing

926
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 1: is right, and they don't believe what I'm doing is right,

927
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: and it's very difficult for me to even bring up

928
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: how I feel or difficult to bring up actual facts

929
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: about the faith of Mormonism and the history of Mormonism

930
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: without them pooh pooing it and immediately saying that's not true.

931
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 1: So I don't know what it is how to do it.

932
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I think the worst thing we

933
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 1: can do is what we're doing, which is just staying

934
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: in our own little bubble and not communicating with our

935
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: friends or family that do have different beliefs than us.

936
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, I think, yes, if they're crossing

937
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: boundaries and they're now attacking you, then correct, you should

938
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: stand up for yourself and do what it takes to

939
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: take care of yourself. And if that means cutting them

940
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: out of your life for the time being because they're

941
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: too radicalized, that makes sense. Um. But I think, as

942
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: the person with the knowledge and the person on the

943
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: outside of the cult experience, if you can try not

944
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 1: to judge them and realize they're brainwashed there, this isn't them,

945
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: this isn't their opinions. They have been manipulated into something

946
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: and the brainwashing has ignited. And if you can just

947
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: hold a space of empathy for the person that you

948
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: know they really are, and just hope they find themselves again.

949
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 1: And when they do, you can be like I never

950
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 1: left you, man, like I'm I'm here, but I had

951
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: to leave you for this amount of time because of this,

952
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry. But I think if you can just

953
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 1: sort of reframe your experience of them, it can help

954
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 1: just to like not engage when they attack. That's fine,

955
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: you know, do your thing, your brainwashed right now. And

956
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't help you. And that's the hardest thing.

957
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: I think as a friend or family, when you when

958
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can actually do, or you can just

959
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 1: throw a turkey leg at him during Thanksgiving, be less

960
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: compassionate than that, right, And I think that's a powerful message.

961
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: And perhaps that's where we end today's conversation. Liz Tyler,

962
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: thank you so much for spending time with us today.

963
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for your insight and perspective. As we said,

964
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,479
Speaker 1: was I an occult is A powerful show is out

965
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: now wherever you find your favorite podcast, we'd love for

966
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: you to listen to it. Uh. If you are in

967
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: the audience with us today and you have an experience

968
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: that you would like to share, you can always contact us.

969
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 1: We'll tell you how to do that at the end

970
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: of the show, But for now, Tyler Liz, where can

971
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: people learn more about your work as a show and

972
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: as individuals? I mean, I'm I'm relatively amish when it

973
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: comes to social medias. I really need to get better

974
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: at it. But I'm in. My instagram is at Tyler

975
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: me some. But also, you know our show obviously you

976
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: can get it anywhere. We're also you know, if you

977
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: if any listener has had a cult experience or has

978
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: been in and left occult, we'd love to hear your story.

979
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: We're always from great storytellers. You can email us at

980
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: cults at I heart media dot com. You can also

981
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: call our hotline cult ish uh and you can also

982
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 1: direct d M s Baby. Our instagram is at was

983
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: I an occult? But yeah, get in touch with us.

984
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: We we want to tell your story. And my personal

985
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: instagram is the Ayakuzy. That sounds like a cult to me.

986
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what, don't I only have followers on

987
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: my page, that's everybody on Instagram, and we as always

988
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: want to hear from you folks. What do you think

989
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: about the state of cults in modern America? Have you

990
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: or someone you know been taken in by a cultic organization.

991
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: If so, when did you realize what was happening? How

992
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: did your loved one or you get out? We can't

993
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: wait to hear your story. We try to make it

994
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 1: easy to find us online. Oh indeed, you can find

995
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: us all over the internet. We are on Facebook, YouTube,

996
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: and also Twitter under the handle conspiracy Stuff. We're also

997
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: on Instagram Conspiracy Stuff show. And Hey, whilst on the internet,

998
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 1: why not navigate your browser or I device over to

999
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and leave us a favorable review because you

1000
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: know that you feel favorably about us. It helps people

1001
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: find the show, um, and it makes us all feel

1002
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: really good in our heart of hearts. Yes, uh, buddy.

1003
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 1: If you don't want to do that, you can use

1004
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: your mouth to go through your phone into our ears.

1005
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: You can call one eight three three s T D

1006
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: W y t K and leave us a voice message.

1007
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: Please do that. It's a lot of fun. You have

1008
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: three minutes you can say whatever you want to. Please

1009
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 1: give yourself a cool nickname just for anonymity sake. And

1010
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: if you've got too much to say that won't fit

1011
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: in that three minutes, why not instead send us a

1012
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 1: good old fashioned email our addresses conspiracy at i heart

1013
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff they Don't want you to Know

1014
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts

1015
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: from my heart radio, visit the i heart radio app,

1016
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.